Misplaced Pages

For those opposed to an indef block, question

Since the I/P topics and civility seem to be what does the user in, would there be any consideration if you are opposed to an indef block, for a topic restriction in regards to I/P or a civility probation? rootology/equality 19:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Considering the hostilities have mostly taken place at Malcolm's userpage, and that not-so-nice comments came from both ends, I believe the civility restriction is hardly a fitting punishment. Topic restriction is basically an indef-block for Malcolm so that is even worse. I really don't see why there is such a strong interest in nailing this guy. I'm looking through his edits and there isn't anything particularly unique aside from typical user-page fights. If you bait an editor long enough and treat them like a criminal, of course they are going to get angry. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Am I understanding you correctly, that you think all these blocks including those for edit warring a POV are his being 'baited'? Please back up with diffs where he was "baited". This is a guy who was so lacking in AGF and civility that he was actually barred from even editing RFAR by injunction. rootology/equality 19:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Under the allegation that the blocks were mostly done by the same-set of admins and some of the blocks were reversed, yeah, I can't say with all honesty that the punishment fits the crime. And yes, Malcolm was baited relentlessly by editors and admins alike. I/Per articles aren't particularly notable for its attraction to good-faith. Do you dispute this? Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

In order we have blocks by all these people: Scarian, Scarian, Elonka, Scarian, Gwen Gale, Smashville, Gwen Gale, Sandstein, Tznkai, Connolley, Rootology, Rlevse, Gwen Gale. That is a lot of different admins, but then we see he was also User:Kwork, who was blocked an additional three times by Jayjg, Jossi, and Jpgordon. That is a total of 12 different admins having blocked him. Again, please provide evidence of admins baiting this guy with diffs. Deleted contribs for Kwork here, which show the exact same MO as his turn under the Malcolm handle. In fact, I see that Kwork is indeffed still, so I don't know how we all missed that Malcolm was even editing--he should have been blocked once it was realized he was Kwork. Again, please provide diffs of all these different admins, even Jayjg and Jpgordon, harassing and baiting him. rootology/equality 20:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Malcom was blocked 6 June 2008 by Scarian for abusing multiple accounts (which is to say, for evading the Kwork block). I had tagged Kwork's user page and he emailed me, claiming he didn't know sockpuppetry wasn't allowed and after a number of emails, I helped him with the aftermath of RTV for Kwork and Malcolm Schosha (deleting his MS user page history among other things). Then Jpgordon unblocked him on 25 July 2008 and he came back from RTV. This is why (and when) I started watching his account. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Withdrawing my suggestion of a topic ban/civ paroles etc. based on his history across two usernames, that I just noticed. rootology/equality 20:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Geez you really took the time to investigate, eh? I don't know much about Malcolm's previous handle so I rather not comment on it. The degree of action, proportional to the blocks listed, has been extremely generalized and overblown. I'll enumerate and simplify the blocks (though I don't really want to) to prevent confusion:

• Since the sock-violation was in good faith, we shouldn't count those.

• Between June 2008 to May 2009 (we can round it off to a year), 19 blocking-related actions occurred.

• Out of those 19 blocks, 5 were administered by Gwen Gale.

• Out of those 19 blocks, 2 were administered by rootogoloy.

• Out of those 19 blocks, 5 were reversed. 1 block by Rootology was self-reverted, 1 block by Gwen Gale was reversed by admin User:DGG for being "excessive," 1 block by User:Smashville self-reverted, 1 block by Gwen Gale was reversed by admin User:MZMcBride for being "improper," and the last was for sock-proving.

• Out of those 19 blocks, 4 were for personal attacks (one being reversed), 6 were for edit warring (mostly baiting situations), and the rest a mixture of disruption/arbitration concerns.

Out of approximately 5,114 over a span of almost 1.5 years, Malcolm received 15 unreserved blocks. That's 1 block for every 340 edits. But these blocks aren't exactly eye-popping. Edit warring is standard, and blocks are almost solely dependent on who reports who first. Personal attacks etc.. aren't defendable but again words can be miscontrued and Malcolm has laid pretty clear rationales in the past which had led to blocks being reversed. That in itself is a strong reminder of the strong partiality that has occurred throughout this whole ordeal.

Again, can you provide a single diff or evidence that he was "baited"? Especially, how is one "baited" into Edit Warring on article content? rootology/equality 21:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan12345, I'd also like to know how Malcolm was baited. It seems to me that he has done more than his share of baiting around here. In one instance, he described the actions of editors with whom he disagreed as "gang raping" an article; in other situations, he referred to ArbCom members as schmucks and to other editors as antisemites and anti-Zionists. Name-calling may be acceptable on the playground, but it has no place here. — ] (talk · contribs) 22:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Read through his talk page. Either Malcolm is nothing less than an angry troll or people really just want to stonewall him out of wikipedia. Malcolm takes the concept of honesty a bit too high, though his remarks tend to come with clear and obvious rationales. He doesn't call everyone he disagrees with as antisemites/anti-Zionists. It's safe to assume many subscribe to that level of thought, however. Do you endorse the belief that all responses to Malcolm have been done in good faith and without prejudice? Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

What I believe about his justifications or personal views on topics and policies, or external politics are irrelevant. Can you provide a single diff or edit to back up your claims? It should be easy. rootology/equality 22:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems Root has taken the liberty of finalizing the issue and declaring Malcolm a "banned" user per direction of the talk page and ANI. I consider this a bit premature. I don't think it is very fair of us to not give Malcolm a voice. I'm sure he has a lot to say. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that was reversed by me as well I believe and some days ago. rootology/equality 21:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

You are right I did not check the date. Apologies. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan12345: "Edit warring is standard" ??? um, no. ++Lar: t/c 23:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a standard violation in those kinds of articles. Thanks for taking what I wrote out of clear and obvious context. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The context is clear enough, you seem to be saying that Malcolm spent a significant portion of his time at the kind of articles for which "edit warring is standard" and ... he edit warred. After a certain number of warnings, which he had received, and then some, enough is enough. There is no "kind of article" for which edit warring is acceptable. We have arbcom case after arbcom case that makes that point, including the one that Malcolm was disinvited from participating further in. You appear to have several edit war blocks in your own record. I suggest that you need to internalise that you yourself should not edit war. End of story. That would be the best use of your time, I think. This block is sound. ++Lar: t/c 23:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It's standard conduct. And the standard response is blocks and topic bans. So, anything out of the ordinary here? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Good God... 1 block for every 340 edits is appalling. "Baiting" presumes that a person is generally policy-abiding, but in a moment of weakness was driven into an uncharacteristic fit of blockable behavior. You can't be "baited" into 15 blocks - at that point, it's your responses to everyday editing stresses that are inappropriate. This isn't "baiting" - it's someone who has a long-term problem contributing here, and doesn't seem to be improving. MastCell  23:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, by that 1 in 340 metric, anyone with less than 29 blocks per 10,000 edits is ahead of the curve. I'd be sitting at about 32 blocks now, and I think someone like Charles Matthews or Rich Farmbrough would be around 260-270 lifetime blocks by now. rootology/equality 23:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Still, do you dispute the partiality that has occurred? Does sheer # of reversed blocks and dependence on the same admins to make those blocks not bother you? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

There is much more to the background of those blocks than that: There were many unblock declines following most (nearly all) of those "reversed" blocks, some of which lasted for most of their set length before they were undone, without consulting the blocking admins. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikifan12345 is not addressing the concerns that have been raised or answering the questions they have been asked. I think we're done here. Consensus for an indef block seems pretty clear to me. ++Lar: t/c 04:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes I have. Please don't shove this under the rug. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Rootology asked you for a diff to back up your claim, several times. You went off on tangents. Those tangents have been refuted. But more importantly, this is all after the fact, because the thread above this shows a clear consensus... lots of supports, one weak oppose... and you. It may not be unanimous, but it's a consensus all right. ++Lar: t/c 05:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Maury Markowitz and redirect deletions

I'm taking this here because this will likely need administrators to undelete pages. Maury Markowitz (talk · contribs) has for some time been deleting redirects for being unused or "polluting Google". He doesn't seem to understand that he's wrong, even after a successful deletion review; relevant threads are User talk:Maury Markowitz#VIA redirects and User talk:Maury Markowitz#Redirects. The next step would be to go through all the redirects he deleted and undelete those that should not have been deleted. I can help create the list, but for obvious reasons cannot help with the undeletions. --NE2 13:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• I've left him a message to point out that there's more than just you thinking that the deletions are a bit off. Stifle (talk) 13:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god, this is still going on?! Undelete them all, with my blessings! I don't care one way or the other. But I do care about NE2's constant complaints and casting aspersions. So if undeleting all of these makes him leave me alone, great, full speed ahead! Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough; if someone sends me a list I'll work through it. Stifle (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

User:NE2/redirects includes all of them. There are likely a few non-redirects and a few valid redirect deletions in there. --NE2 17:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I've checked through #39 (PostScipt). --Carnildo (talk) 01:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

And done. About half of the redirects have been restored. --Carnildo (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. --NE2 16:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Poor judgment and questionable timing on a speedy deletion

I am posting this note because I believe that there was poor judgment shown in the speedy deletion of Stanislav Menshikov. Here is the chronology:

• May 16: a dispute begins over whether commentary by Menshikov that is favorable to Lyndon LaRouche is sufficiently notable for inclusion in the lead of that article.
• May 22: Will Beback posts a comment in which he says Menshikov is "not impartial."
• May 22: Will speedy deletes Menshikov's bio.
• May 23: TallNapoleon notes that Menshikov is "redlinked."
• May 23: Cs32en deletes Menshikov quote on the grounds that Menshikov is redlinked.
• May 24: Cs32en posts this: "If Menshikov is not notable enough to have his own article, why would his opinion about another person be so important that it would be in the lede?"
• May 24: Will responds, "That's a good point."

The reason given for speedy deletion was that the article was created by a banned user. Assuming that this is true, Will had several options:

• He could have deleted the article over a year ago (he chose to edit the article instead)
• He could have posted a notice on a relevant board, asking an uninvolved admin to take action
• He could have invited community participation through a conventional AfD process

Instead, Will chose the one course of action that was most likely to create the impression that he was using admin tools to shape the outcome of an article content dispute. --Leatherstocking (talk) 14:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

He edited the article only once and deleted it as having been created by a banned user. Any user in good standing can recreate it. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Leatherstocking on this one. Recreated. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

That's ok! Gwen Gale (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, since the article creator MaplePorter (talk · contribs) does appear to be a sock of a banned user, Will Beback was technically correct (which is, as my idol Hermes Conrad would say, the best kind of "correct") to speedy delete it, prior edits notwithstanding, although the circumstances of the deletion as related by Leatherstocking do seem a bit odd. Worse, the recreation by Maury Markowitz might (also technically) be considered both proxying for a banned editor and the beginning of a wheel war. To avoid any unproductive nastiness, I suggest that we just submit the article to AfD to find out whether this (probably borderline notable) guy should have an article or not.  Sandstein  17:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Maury Markowitz didn't use the admin bit to recreate the article so I don't see much of a wheel war there (as I said, any editor in good standing could have done that). However, I do agree AfD would be the way to go if anyone is wondering about the notability of this topic. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, going by the Google cache, it looks like Maury recreated it without undeleting the history, a big no-no for reasons of attribution. --NE2 17:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Well, I assume he used admin privileges to retrieve the deleted content (but, as I said, technically).  Sandstein  17:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The user in question was banned six months after the article was created. The policy is very clear that you SD material in violation of the ban, and only if there are no other major editors. Neither case applies. Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Given the very long and sad block log of the sockmaster before and after the time when the article was begun, I can't get too stirred up about the deletion of an article created by one of its socks. I think we can agree AfD is the way to deal with this now. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

However, Maury, it does look like you rs'd the text by copying from an edit window only an admin could have. This was not what I meant by "recreate." I think both of you have made a muddle of this and I have restored the article history, given the need for attribution under GFDL. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Now listed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stanislav Menshikov.  Sandstein  21:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• To correct an error by Leatherstocking: when I edited the article (only a minor edit), Mapleporter had not yet been identified as a sock of a banned user. Leatherstocking has a history of complaining about enforcement activities regarding HK's socks. Regarding Maury Markowitz's issue about whether Mapleporter was banned at the time: we ban people, not accounts. The person behind Mapleporter was the banned editor Herschelkrustofsky, who has used dozens of sock accounts. HK also has a history of creating articles solely to improve the reputation of Lyndon LaRouche, of whom he is a follower. In the year since it was created it was not linked to any other article.   Will Beback  talk  19:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, then, the appropriate time to delete would be at the time the sock was identified. Also, please refrain from attributing motives to other editors -- I don't have "a history of complaining about enforcement activities regarding HK's socks." I have a "history" of calling attention to enforcement actions, by you, that have the effect of influencing content disputes to which you you are a party. You can avoid my calling attention to such actions, by not taking them. That is why we have this board: call in an uninvolved admin. --Leatherstocking (talk) 01:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't attribute a motive - I identified a behavior. You're welcome to call attention to anything you like. But I've been following policy. Any help dealing with the banned user is appreciated. Even better would be if the banned editor would stay away, as the community has repeatedly decided.   Will Beback  talk  05:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Sam Blacketer resignation article at The Register

I just saw that an article was published today on The Register about Sam Blacketer, and wanted to give you guys a heads-up. TotientDragooned (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Correct link ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 18:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a rather good article, actually, thanks for sharing. I particularly like the quote in the final paragraph! ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 18:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Heh! That might explain this (reverted) edit, which had me scratching my head. Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 18:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Its rather a bummer. Sam is a pretty good editor, but the aforementioned edit was clearly pov. - Arcayne () 03:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you are misreading the situation. All that Sam Blacketer did was revert vandalism in Cameron's article: New Canadian (talk · contribs) inserts a picture designed to mock Cameron: . It is a picture that shows Cameron, making a stupid face, in front of something in the background that makes him look as though he has a halo. Sam Blacketer then reverted that edit, restoring the normal picture, showing Cameron smiling in his suit: , with the edit summary "(Undid revision 290191421 by New Canadian (talk): Revert choice of picture to one not carrying saintly overtones.)" His crime was to have a sense of humour. Two days later, Sam Blacketer reverted another vandal: . Metz makes it sound as though Sam Blacketer had inserted a less flattering picture of Cameron, to score a popularity point against Cameron. The exact opposite is the truth. Thus I conclude Cade Metz is a journalist whose writings should not be given much credence, and that is putting it politely. ;) JN466 11:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

No, I get that, Jayen466 - I do - but there is a reason we avoid those articles with which we have conflict of interest issues. It's incredibly poor judgment. It isn't like editing Hitler and Ghandi's page to keep junk nd out (when you hate one and love the other); the editor had a real connection to the subject. Hmm, we should have a policy or guideline about this... - Arcayne () 12:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as a Brit, Sam Blacketer's handling of the image seemed impartial, balanced and fair-minded. No need for a witch hunt here. Mathsci (talk) 22:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the edit was ok, but a politician should know better (as Brit and a Reg reader). "Sam" did ok, and the big mistake he made was editing under his real name. I also think that Cade Metz is an ok guy, having spoken to him in real life, and that their coverage of wikipedia is rather tongue-in-cheek and funny (it's quite a british thing, though I don't think he's a brit). He's written some good pieces, and this is just a gossipy piece which happens to be correct. Also, WP:BLP applies to comments about Sam and Reg writers, I'd have thought, so lets keep it nice (not directed at MathSci - he's a nice guy too). Verbal chat 22:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to say I am rather surprised at all this furore. Among those of us who edit UK politics pages, its well known that Sam Blacketer was David Boothryd. As someone from a different party to David I can say his conduct has been excellent and impartial in all his dealings with both users and articles throughout his editing here. Its a real shame that he has felt that he needed to step down from ArbCom over this. Perhaps this ill informed IT journalist thought he had a scoop, not realising that he was telling the online political community what we knew anyway. I just hope that David carries on contributing to Misplaced Pages as both his in-depth historical knowledge and his eye for detail have raised the quality of our politics articles. - Galloglass 22:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Ill informed? He seems to have been correct, and Sam resigned because of it. I hope he keeps editing too, and I hope attacks on living, identifiable, people stop. I didn't know sam had other accounts. I suggest this section is closed. Verbal chat 07:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Not until "The Register" explains exactly what they meant by calling him a "Labour solider". That seems to be a typo for "solder", but I'm having a difficult time picturing how anyone could be a material used to join metal. Or is this another example of "The Register"'s penchant for erroneous reporting? -- llywrch (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

• Real world journalists have an annoying tendency to call the ArbCom Misplaced Pages's highest "court" that makes me cringe; this article seems no different. :) AGK 20:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

David Boothroyd article

Someone may want to take a closer look at this article and the drama quickly emerging behind this. I think this is going to get ugly. MuZemike 08:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

That is, it has been rapidly recreated, and another user has a copy of the article on his userpage, which is now up for MFD. MuZemike 08:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. Deleted again and salted. MuZemike 08:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

See WP:DRV. No need for drama. Jehochman 08:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is now posted on the user page of TAway (talk · contribs). Mathsci (talk) 08:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I've resolved that. Jehochman 09:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism of File:WPAbortion-logo.svg

I'm sorry, I don't know how to fix this, but I think it needs urgent attention - the Abortion "logo" that appears on all abortion related topics has been changed to read "Murder" by CGrapes429 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thanks, Dawn Bard (talk) 20:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... I tried to fix it, but something seems to be working wrong. Any suggestions? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 20:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Seems to be fixed. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 20:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Drilnoth uploaded a new version of it. What is weird for me is that the Murder still appears in the image at the top of the image page, but the update to read "Abortion" at the bottom by Drilnoth looks ok, and I clicked on the Abortion article to see that the sidebar does indeed say Abortion. I figure it's a thing with my computer. I refreshed the page 4 times but it still read as Murder...anyway, I fully protected the image page for 3 days. --Moni3 (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh. I protected it indef, and refreshed until the image cache caught up with Drilnoth's fix. In any case, one or more of us took care of it. :-)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, y'all. I warned the user who made the change; I hope that was appropriate. Dawn Bard (talk) 20:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Most probably. :-) I extended the protection to indef again, and deleted all the "Murder" versions so that someone couldn't just revert to an earlier version.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Only one edit since January, and it's a vandalism? Sounds like a compromised account. If it were me deciding, I would indef it and see if the user even notices. Baseball Bugs carrots 21:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Bugs, treating these folk with your fluffy kindness and indolent patience is surely going to backfire on you one of these days. Sometimes love and maple syrup isn't enough! LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

And that's why I'm not the one deciding, don'cha know. But as merely a lowly peon; just a simple farmer; one of the people of the land; part of the common clay of the new west; I can always make recommendations. 0:) Baseball Bugs carrots 23:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Just be glad I didn't refer to that drive-by vandalism as the CGrapes429 of Wrath. Oops, too late. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Love and maple syrup are useless without pancakes and sex. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Mmmmmm maple syrup and sex... damn I wish I was young again! --WebHamster 23:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't recommend mixing lovin' and syrup. Things can get stuck together, and then you'll be subjected to the ridicule of the Rescue Squad. Or so I've heard. 0:) Baseball Bugs carrots 23:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you misheard, that is super glue and sex. Not that I have first hand knowledge.... The Seeker 4 Talk 00:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what they need is some kind of syrup with the consistency of K-Y. That would be ideal for keeping those pancakes lubricated. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Was that from that summer at band camp? Oh... MuZemike 03:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Good grief I go to Disney World for a week and THIS happens in AN/I? Wildthing61476 (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Standards keep heading down the ladder as we try to wring the last ounce of humor. By now we must be down to the last wrung. Baseball Bugs carrots 13:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

So the "logo" for abortion is the word "Abortion" with a drop shadow? I guess it's better than a picture of a coat hanger, but really, why do we have this image at all? rspεεr (talk) 04:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

If someone attaches a registered trade mark symbol to it, then we'll have some real cause to worry. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I was surprised how many articles use it. It's being used for a project logo, so that stands to reason. A coat-hanger? How about an illustration of a 13-year-old being raped by her stepfather? Not neutral either? Then the word itself is probably the thing. Maybe a bit too fancy for its own good, though. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I am being hounded

An IP has been following around Misplaced Pages for about a month now and shows no sign of stopping. QuackGuru (talk) 03:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Blocked a month for disruptive editing based on a previous block that appears to not have been effective. Nakon 03:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

If I may add a note here, there is another user, SqueakBox (talk · contribs), who may be worth investigating as well. Looking at his contrib history shows a similar pattern to the now-blocked IP's of reverting QuackGuru's edits. In a 7-minute spree on 26 May, 2009, he reverted QG 15 times, all of which were soon reverted by admin, Jennavecia. Tarc (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that this user did not know there was a consensus against removing co-founder? Or possibly thought that guackguru was trying to hide vandalism by implying he was correcting a typo, even though anyone familiar with the situation understood the sarcasm there? A cursory search would suggest the IP user was not told about the consensus, so the IP users unblock request might actually be valid. This still does not really explain why the IP user is editing in that area, possibly following guackguru. David D. (Talk) 05:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Plausible, as the reversions occurred before the IP's involvement in Talk:Jimmy Wales. But it seems to be a hounding issue nonetheless, as this anon has been involved in revert wars with this user in the recent past, , down in the April 15-17 range. And their first edit to Jimmy Wales was to revert the accusation against him. Maybe a block reduction, then. Tarc (talk) 16:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

A rogue bot

I am concerned by what I consider a rogue bot. It is working its way through the biographical articles, adding a {{DEFAULTSORT}} parameter to each one.

Various other people have told the bot owner that they have concerns over this bot. Maybe the bot owner paused their bot. But, if they did they didn't leave a note informing those with a concern that the bot was stopped.

What this bot was doing was an enormous mistake, for every individual who does not have a name that fits into the European naming scheme of inheritable surnames as the last component of the name. Chinese people use inherited surnames -- but it is the first component of their name. People with Arabic names don't use inherited surnames at all. That is billions of individuals.

This bot has generated a considerable burden of extra work to clean up after it.

If it has not been disabled, could an administrator stop it? If it has been stopped could someone leave a note to that effect on the bot's talk page?

For what it is worth I think there is no mechanical way that a bot can determine whether an individual's name should be put into a defaultsort template, and this bot, nor its brothers, should not be restarted. Geo Swan (talk) 07:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe the bot being refered to is DefaultsortBot. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 07:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

DefaultuserBot's owner, Mikaey, has been notified of this thread. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 07:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

<sigh>. I don't know how many times I try to explain this to everyone. The bot isn't deciding on its own how to arrange the name, it's pulling the listas parameter of the {{WPBiography}} on the talk page. I agree that it's extra work to clean up mistakes, but a) I think it's doing more good than harm in the long run, and b) we need to focus more on editors who are getting the listas wrong in the first place. Anywho, I've turned the bot off for the time being so that hopefully we can get this cleared up. P.S. -- the bot's RfA is here. Matt (talk) 07:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

To err is human, to really screw things up requires a computer.

Well meaning, but ill-advised volunteers have assumed the European style of inherited surnames was applicable to all names -- when it demonstrably does not apply. Over the last N years they have added ill-advised, unreliable, templates and parameters, to an enormous number of articles where they do not belong. Bots written by well-meaning but ill-advised bot-authors, which rely on the already unreliable data, are compounding an already serious problem.

At this point more than half of our articles about individuals with Arabic names have had someone add an ill-advised, unreliable guess at what their inherited surname would be. This data is so unreliable no bot should rely on it. Geo Swan (talk) 08:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Why don't we come up with a good way of fixing the problem? Geo Swan, what should the defaultsort/listas be? I or other can try to generate a list, then go through purging/just plain removing the offending defaultsorts/listas. - Jarry1250 08:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It's really unfair to call it a "rogue bot", when it was approved by the Bot Approvals Group after positive input from the community. The bot takes sorting information from WPBio and puts it into DEFAULTSORT. The vast majority of the time, the sorting information is correct. When it's not correct, the bot can't know that, and it puts it into DEFAULTSORT anyway. The incorrect information would be there with or without this bot. The correct response is to fix it when it's incorrect, not blame the bot operator. This is similar to a bot that changes malformed links like ] to , but isn't aware that occasionally http://www.example.com/ is an irrelevant link. I don't think this is an issue for the Admin Noticeboard.

So as a solution, it would be great if we could find editors familiar with the Arabic and Persian naming conventions, who can say with a good degree of certainty whether Mohammed Mosaddeq should be sorted under Mohammed or Mosaddeq. Does anyone here have to expertise, and where can I ask? Is there, perhaps, a reference work that lists this? – Quadell 13:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I posted something on my talk page about to that same effect -- that if the data is incorrect, there's just as much work involved in fixing the bot's edits as there would be if the bot hadn't touched the page in the first place. Like I said earlier, I think we need to focus on teaching people what the right way is. Can we mark this resolved? Matt (talk) 22:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I noticed myself that the bot was adding DEFAULTSORT even if it was needed (for example in single-word terms). IMO this bot was approved very fast, in only four days discussion without enough feedback from the community. BAG must be more careful. For the rest we have to reach a consensus as a community. I always though that adding DEFAULTSORT in all articles could not be a bot's job. Only in small approved lists maybe. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It's causing a similar problem with Ethiopian names: Ethiopians do not have family names. The surname is their father's name, e.g. in the case of Mengistu Haile Maryam, his name is "Mengistu", & "Haile Maryam" is his father's name. I've been deleting DEFAULTSORT in these bios as I encountered them -- which means in the rare cases where an expatriate Ethiopian does use his father's name as a family name, I'm introducing an error. (And I won't go into the problems of compound names like "Zara Yaqob" or "Haile Selassie".) -- llywrch (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The solution here is to draft the bots in to help. I used AWB to add the Listas parameter to several hundred talk pages, a few months back, but limited the pages under consideration to those consisting of specific patterns such "John" followed by an initial followed by an un-hyphenated capitalised name. Wherever a rule can be laid down you will find a bot editor willing to apply it for you. On other point, don't delete the DEFAULTSORT rather replace it. This makes it clear that the sort order has been deliberately set. Rich Farmbrough, 17:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC).

Rich -- this is exactly what happened here. I wrote this bot because I was approached by Carcharoth with the request that, in the end, all biography articles have DEFAULTSORTs on them. The rule we decided upon was that "all biography articles fall into either Category:Biography articles with listas parameter or Category:Biography articles without listas parameter, let's take the ones that are in Category:Biography articles with listas parameter and copy their listas parameters into a DEFAULTSORT for the article". Matt (talk) 18:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The problems are the following:

• Not all articles need a DEFAULTSORT
  • Single word title articles
  • Article where DEFAULTSORT = Articlename (Chinese, Arabic names, musical groups etc.)
• Sometimes the DEFAULTSORT is different than listas for a good reason i.e. YOB/YOD categories listing is not the same with most categories
• Some articles are for duos, groups of more people and the categories should be piped but no DEFAULTSORT

-- Magioladitis (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, we can make exceptions for the "articles where DEFAULTSORT = Articlename" situation pretty easily (which, when you think about it, would also cover "single word title article" most of the time, but not always). I'd argue against not having DEFAULTSORTs for single word titles by default because the name may not match WP:MCSTJR.

As far as category sort tags, the bot only removes them if they are identical to what the new DEFAULTSORT is going to be. We realized at the BRfA that some categories may want to be sorted differently, and we made a conscious effort to make sure they were left alone.

Why would you not want a DEFAULTSORT for duos/groups? Matt (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

To Magioladitis (or should I address this to Matt?) -- So if you start opting out Chinese & Arabic names, could you also opt out Ethiopian ones? (We can take this specific conversation elsewhere if that works better for all.) -- llywrch (talk) 20:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, we're talking about opting out cases where the listas/DEFAULTSORT would be the same as the page title. Distinguishing Chinese/Arabic/Ethiopian names from everything else gets VERY tricky, especially for a bot. Matt (talk) 21:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

As has been stated many, many times before by me and others in many, many places and was restated by Rich a few hours ago, the placing of a DEFAULTSORT value on a page makes it clear that the sort order has been deliberately set. This is especially true where DEFAULTSORT=PAGENAME. (I have found a few of the latter where the article has indications that the pagename is wrong, however. Sometimes the indications are in the wording of the article and sometimes the indications are in the pipe values for the Categories.)

It is also a good idea to put a DEFAULTSORT value on a page where the proper value would not be obvious or acceptable to the average user, a person who would not be well-versed in the various naming conventions employed throughout the world, with a non-viewable comment that the value is correct and a short explanation of the reason it is correct.

I am not certain what what is meant by the DEFAULTSORT is different than the listas for a good reason and even less certain why it applies to the issue of not applying a DEFAULTSORT value to the article. In cases where a page should be sorted in more than one way the alternative sort value would be a pipe in the category assignment. (The Icelanders seem to do things that way.) The categories that have been moved from the article page to the talk page (for what I consider to be specious reasons -- the first one to be moved was approved because of the precedents) will need pipes because the DEFAULTSORT is not to be used on the Talk page.

This is yet another reason to get groups out of WP Biog. A biography is the story of a person's life as told by another person or persons. However, if separate members of a group have to be put into separate categories and they are not sufficiently notable to have separate articles (a condition that I have seen so often that I have stopped wondering about the notability of the group), that is when pipes would be used. Although doing such may may confuse more than it clarifies.

I agree that one of the answers to the problem is to find a way to teach each of the editors how to construct a DEFAULTSORT value from the information that is in a biographical article. Another part of the answer, and the one that should be applied while we are contacting all the hundreds of thousands of editors.

Those who have experience and expertise at creating DEFAULTSORT values do so. It is not possible to locate directly the articles that lack this value so it will have to be through either of the categories regarding the listas parameter. There are currently 44,750 items in Category:Biography articles without listas parameter. That should keep manual editors busy for quite some time because, being responsible people, they will also take care of such things as completing the living parameter, ensuring that the blp banner, if present, is on top, ensuring that the DEFAULTSORT is above the categories to which it should be applied and pipes are used if necessary.

There are other reasons to correct rather than delete wrong values. There are pages that must be sorted on a value other than the PAGENAME. Until all the other pages are removed from Category:Biography articles without listas parameter it will be almost impossible to locate the ones that must be addressed. (This could be an issue for blp as well.) As an imperfect example look at Category:Pages with DEFAULTSORT conflicts. The pages that are there are permanent residents and will always be there but are causing no harm because no one will see them. When a new page is placed in the category by a careless or unsuspecting editor I resolve the conflict as soo as I see it, generally twice per day, because there the conflict occurs on the page there is a sentence in red on the page describing the nature of the conflict, alerting the viewer to the sloppiness of some of the editors.

When Category:Biography articles without listas parameter is down to a dozen or so pages that are waiting for editors with special expertise to take care of them, it will be easy to notice the new pages.

Unfortunately, what all this means is that editors will have to take responsibility for all aspects of the articles on their watchlists, even the way the pages are sorted, and that editors with special knowledge may be taxed with a little more work for a while. This is not work in the truest sense as minimal amounts of force will be moved over very short distances. Much less true work than would be involved in getting another beer out of the refrigerator, for example.

It also means that the work will go much more slowly than is has over the past couple of months. As I said above Category:Biography articles without listas parameter has 44,750 pages in it. When I joined the others who were trying to do things manually there were 375,812 pages in it. A month later when listasbot started there were 334,000 pages in it. The manual workers had managed to do a little over 30,000 pages in a month. In the two months that listasbot has been working the number of pages has been reduced by nearly 290,000.

JimCubb (talk) 21:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm failing to see any arguments here that tell me that the bot's behavior is inappropriate. So, with that, and also at JimCubb's request (see here), I'm going to let the bot resume its work. Matt (talk) 04:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

User:194x144x90x118

Recently, I asked for some feedback on this user's pattern of uncivil behavior, and what response to it might be appropriate. Only a few people responded, and no one directly replied to the question of whether his behavior rose to the level of needing administrative attention or not. The archived discussion is here. The user has replied to the archiving of the discussion in this section of his talk page, entitled "Still here haters." He says there that he very much wants to open an ANI thread regarding myself and User:SarekOfVulcan, in order to ask that we be disciplined for our 'immature behavior,' and presumably to address the problem that we are both incompetent and insane, but he is unable to open the thread himself because he doesn't feel his English skills are strong enough. I therefore open the discussion on his behalf; if anyone feels that I should be reprimanded, or Sarek should, for my behavior to this user, I welcome your comments. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Second that, again. I'm pretty sure I haven't gone over the line, but I am an involved editor on DreamHost, where most (all?) of our interactions have taken place.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't deny it, my english and my wikipeda linking skills and all that are somewhat lacking but I wasn't asking anyone to open such a thread for me, the fact that Fisherqueen did is a clear cut example of immature behavior but yeah I'll try to get busy and make all them links, text and all that stuff and post up an ANI thread.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Would you like me to withdraw the thread? I would be happy to do so. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Posting the thread was an immature thing to do which will be mentioned in an ANI thread appearing in the future. Withdrawing the thread is an obvious thing to do.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 20:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if there's a thread coming later anyway, might as well leave this one open for now.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

My first interaction with 194 was reverting his third addition of a lengthy statement that the DreamHost article had scared him away from using their services. I later removed a similar comment attacking another editor and criticizing Dreamhost (again, after multiple other editors had removed the comment).--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Could you folks take this to WP:WQA? I don't see any of this leading to a block. Jehochman 21:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with it being here, because I sense it's a prelude to (and hopefully heading off) RfC. We have few members who would comment in WQA, and a significant number here (one would think). Usually, so few of responses means "it's not a big deal" or "not urgent? no need to look". I would suggest that FisherQueen has seen something that her colleagues might want to look at...and sometimes it's more polite to not say exactly what it is, in case she was reading it wrong...and of course, 194's own comments in this thread give hint that incivility abounds - they can't even be polite in ANI! (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I too saw their uncivil comments and almost commented on them, but don't forget to assume good faith, it's possible that they are bad at English, and don't realise that their comments are on the line of civility. Cheers - Kingpin (talk) 21:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It is possible, but unlikely. 194x's contributions tend to be written in fairly idiomatic English with a varied vocabulary; their grammar is sometimes slightly shaky, but their grasp of English phrasing and idioms seems to be good enough. The fact that they copied the talk page "rules" from User:Anonimu, who has been banned for a year and a half for edit warring, personal attacks and harrassing other editors, is also interesting under the circumstances. --bonadea contributions talk 10:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

FisherQueen and Sarek are neither immature nor insane, and the insinuation that they are is problematic. I recommend that FQ and Sarek avoid antagonizing 194x etc. in the future, but that also 194x avoids any interaction with FQ and Sarek. If he doesn't like working with them, he should not. And he should avoid playing games with WP:NPA. Strong english skills or not, insults are clear in any language. I don't speak French all that well, but I know when someone is throwing around inappropriate comments in French... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 23:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if this is worth a report or not - but it seems to be 4:20 already

I wonder what could be construed from the contribs of Smoker2000 (talk · contribs) and Marijuanasmoke (talk · contribs). Could it perhaps be something portentous of things to come? --WebHamster 22:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I took the liberty of blanking Smoker2000's user page. It's an apparently nonsense article, but it included an illustration of an identified person. This may be a novel interpretation of WP:BLP, so others feel free to correct. // Chris 23:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I blanked the other, and believe it could,m and should, be G3'd as well. Interesting that Smoker2000 contrib'd to Marijuanasmoke, whose ONLY contribs are to his faked biography. 'The Golden Ear-rings'? c'mon. It's a farce. ThuranX (talk) 23:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted them both. Mfield (Oi!) 23:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Smoker2000 has reposted his page - . // Chris 17:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The user has blanked it again, since he posted an attack directed at me, I am not going to rise to it by deleting it again or blocking him personally, someone else can do that if he continues. Mfield (Oi!) 20:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Spoke too soon, now he's adding to it again despite the final warning. Mfield (Oi!) 20:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I have G3 CSD'ed the page, because he has again reinstated it. ThuranX (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The same page has now been recreated under a different username: User:Smoker1999. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks like smoking dope makes you go back in time. I wonder if I can afford enough to go back to when my back didn't ache when it rains? --WebHamster 22:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd support all three accounts Smoker1999 (talk · contribs), Smoker2000 (talk · contribs) and Marijuanasmoke (talk · contribs) now be indefed for abusing multiple accounts. I have to run off but I'll do it when I get back later if no one else has already done it or objected. Seems like the users have actually been smoking quack. Mfield (Oi!) 01:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Emely1219

Emely1219 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Doesn't seem like Ratel, probably a sock from the looks of it. Soxwon (talk) 00:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I doubt it -- seems not to like Ratel particularly, in fact. Seems to be a new user who happened to alight on Copperfield from the looks of things. Collect (talk) 00:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Obviously not me, I don't "do" socks. Checkuser will find it's either TheMagicOfDC (talk · contribs · count) or Karelin7 (talk · contribs · count) I would guess. ► RATEL ◄ 02:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I doubt it is a sock, at least not worth a checkuser. Misplaced Pages:Don't_be_quick_to_assume_that_someone_is_a_sockpuppet may apply here. We can wait a bit on this one, IMHO. Collect (talk) 02:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's annihilate this SPA/COI/sockpuppet before he/she has a chance to do any real damage -- or good -- to this project. Ten edits should be enough to tell. Flowanda | Talk 03:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I've only just seen this section - looks like a sock of Karelin7 (talk · contribs · count) to me and I've reported it as such. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how this edit could be considered vandalism or evidence of a Ratel sock. I'm not objecting to the CU or COI concerns, but I am genuinely confused...is there a conversation somewhere else that I am missing? Flowanda | Talk 01:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Strange SPA behavior

Micheliachempaka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Twice, this user has rewritten Eagle Brand Medicated Oil as a blatant advertisement. After a level-4 warning, they did this. Obviously replacing referenced info with that rubbish won't fly, but should something be done about the account? --Sable232 (talk) 02:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I say block away. I'm guessing AIV could more expediently handled this in the future. MuZemike 03:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Should be blocked for using multiple accounts: as User:Bordenwiki and as User:Micheliachempaka. --64.85.210.19 (talk) 03:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

AIV Backlog

If an admin or two could take a look at the backlog on AIV, it would be appreciated. Thanks! - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

POV editing

Request an administrator look at the editing history of this IP 77.58.147.83 (talk · contribs) address. All the edits made by this editor have a single purpose: to remove statements he deems to be critical or France or French people and to add puffer statements supporting France or French people. Virtually everything this editor has written has been reverted by multiple editors. What this IP editor writes, however, is not serious enough to be called vandalism. Just POV insertion. In addition, this editor is in the custom of adding inappropriate remarks (bad language/insults) to talk pages--always unsigned. If this is the wrong place to write this, please advise. Thanks. Hmains (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

• The first step should be to initiate discussion with the user on their talkpage; not one message (other than SineBot) was left for the user. They may either change their behavior or simply move on once they realize someone objects. If they continue their behavior after being notified/warned, re-report them. --64.85.210.19 (talk) 05:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Also it appears this editor wants to discuss possible changes as seen in their latest contribution. Please attempt to discuss before complaining.Drew Smith What I've done 05:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

In Fact, this IP has given nothing but positive contributions, and well thought out (if somewhat cynical of the english language) arguments on talk pages. Instead of ANIing him, we should encourage this IP to get an account and join the community full force.Drew Smith What I've done 05:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

And, it is common courtesy to alert someone to the fact that they are the subject of an ANI report. I have done this, however in the future you should attempt to hide your poor form, by doing it yourself.Drew Smith What I've done 06:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

To lecture Hmains' "poor form" for not notifying the IP in question is too abrupt as most posters fail to do so. If Hmains was a regular at ANI, or an admin, then that's different; but they just wanted to know what to do. Simply notifying the IP for them, as you have done, suffices just fine. Can you strike that? --64.85.210.19 (talk) 06:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

(noindent) Drew R. Smith can't have made a comprehensive review of the contributions of this Swiss IP, which have mostly been reverted when noticed. Almost all are unsourced and pure POV. There are two unhelpful contributions , , which look like trollérie; similarly , , , . The last diff contains the phrase neurons masturbators in franglais. Some of the talk page comments border on chauvinism; it was hard to find any constructive edits and most were reverted by multiple editors. Most changes or comments were just "personal knowledge". Mathsci (talk) 06:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, now that diffs have been provided, I can see my error. However, the (most apparent) complaint was behavior on talk pages, so that's all I looked at, and found nothing wrong.Drew Smith What I've done 07:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The first diffs I provided have no place on a talk page. Why are you championing this IP and why have you generated the further complaint two threads down below from User:RCS, a german user from Alsace whose use of english the IP criticized in an uncivil way? Mathsci (talk) 07:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, I can see my error. Note the use of the words "was" and "looked". All past tense. I agree with you now that I have been shown proof.Drew Smith What I've done 07:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

User:Drew R. Smith

Extended drama not helping anything

Resolved – Being dealt with ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 10:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Flies vehemently to the defense of a proven vandal in Talk:Dieudonné M'bala M'bala#Awful English in such a way that it is not only impossible to assume good faith (states "He has no bad/poor contributions" while there is plenty and open for all to see, like ) but even possible to surmise sockpuppetry. What do you think? Cheers, --RCS (talk) 07:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I am not a sockpuppet. I did not fly vehemently to the defence of a proven vandal. And I did not attack others by insinuating that they are sockpuppets.Drew Smith What I've done 07:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Please can we return to the IP. He claimed RCS was a French high school student. But the article was a translation into english of the article RCS has been editing as Edelseider for some time now on de.wikipedia. (According to his de.wikipedia user page he is a perfectly bilingual Alsatian.) Mathsci (talk) 08:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I have tagged this user and the IP as suspected sockpuppets at this stage, investigation pending. C.U.T.K.D 09:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC) You can't be serious, right? --64.85.217.122 (talk) 09:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Speaking as one who has "been there", you need to be careful about making overt sockpuppetry claims. If you have evidence, you can file an SPI. One user supporting another excessively may look suspicious, but that's not necessarily enough. Baseball Bugs carrots 09:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I agree one should be careful, but, ahum, do you also think 64.85.217.122 (talk · contribs) was born out of Jupiter's thigh? Just a thought... --RCS (talk) 09:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Try checking 64.85.210.19's talk page. Before you make sock claims next time.Drew Smith What I've done 09:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Ok, so which one of you "comedians" posted this? C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 09:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC) (ec,ec,ec)The tagging is outrageous -- I'm reverting the templating. Can someone have a word with CUTKID, this is a careless and imprudent accusation. BTW, I'm a sock of the other 64.85.xxx IP from above, no need for an SPI. --64.85.217.122 (talk) 09:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Brilliant CUTKD. If you were paying attn that IP in your diff has nothing to do with this thread.Drew Smith What I've done 09:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC) No, he got the right IP (User:77.58.147.83), he didn't tag me. --64.85.217.122 (talk) 09:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I have clarified my above statement by adding the italicised textDrew Smith What I've done 09:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC) What's needed for evidence is not just "support", but also re-posting the same information, similar verbiage, etc. Baseball Bugs carrots 10:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC) If you are referring to this, I think you will find it wasn't actually a diff I quoted above. I was well aware that that particular IP had not posted in this thread, but I find it highly suspicious that shortly after posting here about sockpuppet accusations and causing something of an upset, a "random" IP arrives to leave me a message like that... C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 10:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Ok, well an IP vandalised my page after I edited an ANI that you were involved in a few weeks ago. Was that you?Drew Smith What I've done 10:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Is there a reason why you're so quick to become highly defensive? C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 10:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Both of you, try to act a little more mature, eh? You're bitching and sniping like a couple of brats. Is there anything here which requires admin attention? KillerChihuahua 10:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC) It all started with me claiming (and showing) that Drew Smith had been acting with apparently extreme and quite inexplicable bad faith and this had struck also another user, Mathsci (talk · contribs). So this is where admin input could be useful.--RCS (talk) 10:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC) (EC)::::Oh, I don't no, maybe because sockpuppetry is sever accusation, and you have nothing to back it up with. Maybe next time you want to accuse someone of being a sock, you can find real evidence first. Otherwise, STFU and goodnight.Drew Smith What I've done 10:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Oh Jesus, KC is here. Well, seeing as he hates me I'll be blocked for sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, personal attacks, POV pushing, and edit warring in no time.Drew Smith What I've done 10:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Not a wise tone, Drew. May I draw attention to Drew's conduct at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject User Rehab. Ultimately I don't find his conduct there particularly bad, especially as he too eventually pointed out to a user they were being rude and incivil (User:BullRangifer). Computerjoe's talk 10:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC) (after ec) Ah well, I can corroborate that. Drew accused me of participating in a Xfd merely to oppose his view, and has made several other hostile (and ridiculous) accusations/comments. As I'm the target, however, I've ignored them, and I'm not an appropriate person to take action about his behavior. I suggest another admin, who has not become a target for Drew, address this situation. KillerChihuahua 10:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC) (ec)The main problem has been with the edits of the Zurich IP 77.58.147.83 (talk · contribs), mentioned in the first part above. All the rest is secondary noise. Mathsci (talk) 10:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC) K, checking that. KillerChihuahua 10:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I'm not targetting you. You seem to be targeting me. You always seem to show up when I'm involved in something controversial.Drew Smith What I've done 10:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC) << OK, how about nobody comments here except a neutral outside admin. Drew; you are not neutral, outside or an admin. KillerC; if you don't consider yourself neutral, I wouldn't rise to any of this, just wait for someone uninvolved to look into things. I think that this'll move along much more smoothly if we stop bickering. Thanks. ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 10:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I'm completely neutral. I've also been attacked multiple times by Drew, who I mainly ignore. I have left multiple messages on the IP's talk page and will watch to see what response ensues. KillerChihuahua 10:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC) OK, sorry, misinterpreted, "As I'm the target, however, I've ignored them, and I'm not an appropriate person to take action about his behavior. I suggest another admin," above. Can we mark Resolved then? ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 10:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC) So far as I'm concerned, yes. The IP issue has been addressed, and although I cannot say that situation is resolved, pending reaction/response from the IP, there is nothing more to be done there right now. As the rest of this seems to be bickering and infighting, I suggest we ignore it completely. KillerChihuahua 10:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Does this user do anything other than go round making enemies. Their sarcasm, such as that in the "Legal threat in Highwaymen Motorcycle Club" thread below, is (imo) in direct breach of WP:CIVIL. How have they been getting away with this behaviour for so long? C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 10:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Note—this message was actually posted at 11:31 ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 10:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Ok sorry I didn't see the above comment. C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 10:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Who, me? Or Drew? ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 10:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I was referring to your (TreasuryTag's) comment :) C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 10:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Note to impartial administrator: more incivility and this I find highly suspicious. C.U.T.K.D 09:20, 28 M 10:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC) I am so sorry I removed vandalism from your page. I'll leave it there next time.Drew Smith What I've done 11:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Seems to me that he may have a point, and one can't beat simple instructions. --WebHamster 11:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC) He warned the IP that threatened YOU, after he reverted the vandalism on your talk page!! This needs to be dropped and everyone sent to their respective corners. --64.85.217.122 (talk) 11:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.