Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:18, 6 June 2009

Greetings. Hipocrite has requested that I attempt to mediate a content dispute regarding Cold fusion.

About me

These are facts about me that I consider relevant to this mediation:

• According to this, I have never edited Cold fusion. I do not know anything about cold fusion.
• To the best of my knowledge, I have never worked with Hipocrite, Abd, Verbal, Olorinish, Kevin Baas, Kirk shanahan, EdChem, OMCV, LeadSongDog, Enric Naval, Stephan Schulz, Objectivist, Coppertwig. If my memory fails me and I have worked with any of those editors, please notify me so I can amend the previous statement or, if necessary, recuse myself from the mediation and find someone who would be more objective in my stead.
• I have not read the entirety of Cold fusion nor its talk page. This is not because I am lazy, but because I wish to remain as objective as possible. I believe that if I were to read through Cold fusion in its entirety, I would possibly become biased towards the information that is currently presented in the article. I also believe that a similar effect would occur if I were to read through the entirety of Talk:Cold fusion.
• I am not an administrator. I unsuccessfully requested adminship in February 2009.
• I have very little experience with dispute resolution. I have participated in discussions at WP:RFCN.
• I write and review science-related articles on Misplaced Pages.
• I have never been employed as a scientist of any kind, nor have I ever written a peer-reviewed paper.

Subpage

I have decided to confine my attempted mediation to this subpage for two simple reasons: First, this mediation will likely become quite lengthy and require the use of multiple sections which would otherwise clutter up the talk page. Second, in the time that this mediation takes place, there will likely be unrelated discussions that spring up on the talk page. Such unrelated discussions would interrupt this mediation if it were to occur on the talk page. I would like to make it clear that in no way do I intend to use this subpage as a means of concealing the discussion contained herein. Upon completing my introductory statements, I will provide a link on the talk page and notify the involved editors. If someone wants to add a notice to the top of Talk:Cold fusion, you are more than welcome to do so.

Process

What I have read thus fur has illustrated to me that much of this dispute (as is the case with many disputes) is comprised of personal attacks, accusations of personal attacks, personal counterattacks, and, more generally, criticisms of how the involved parties present information rather than criticisms of the information being presented. This will not occur here. Debate and argumentation will occur at points during this mediation process, but posts (or even individual sentences) that serve no purpose other than to criticize another user will be deleted. If you have a problem with the way another user is behaving and I have not already intervened, take it up at Talk:Cold fusion, the talk page of the user, or my talk page. If you simply have a problem with the material that another user presents, please try to make your rebuttal as impersonal as possible: "I believe that your statement of 'such and such' is incorrect. According to 'so and so'..." or "Your reasoning is somewhat flawed in that the gilbo sprocket generator...".

As of yet, I do not have a detailed plan for how to go about resolving this content dispute. I intend to make sure that all the involved parties are aware of this page and agree to work within the guidelines that I have set forth. I then intend to gather from the involved parties a detailed outline of the individual statements, sections, or sources which are in dispute. From there, we will work to resolve those disputes.

Participation

If you have been actively involved in the Cold fusion content dispute, please sign your name below. While there may be discussions in which uninvolved parties may participate, this list is for those who are actively involved in the dispute.

This list will serve three purposes: First, it will insure that all involved parties have been made aware of this mediation process and help us identify any missing parties which should be notified. Second, it will provide an opportunity for the involved parties to ask preliminary questions before the mediation begins. Third, it will serve to verify that the involved parties have read through the introductory material, agree to participate in the process that I have set forth, and ultimately agree to respect the final content decisions that we collectively arrive upon. Alternatively, involved parties who believe that this process is unnecessary or that I am not the best possible choice for a mediator can also sign here and express their concerns or refusal to participate.

1. Hipocrite (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
2. I'm a bit surprised about being named. I have made some comments in the discussion, but I do not have the time to spend on another science vs. pseudoscience conflict. Thus, do not expect extensive contributions to this mediation from me. I do think that the mediator should indeed start from good knowledge of the conflict and read through at least significant parts of the page and the discussion. I also reserve the right to comment on other editors behavior as necessary during this mediation. I don't see this as a pure content conflict. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   Some may agree that there is a behavior conflict as well as a content conflict. I have neither the authority nor the interest to mediate behavioral issues. On this page, the only thing that I consider to be relevant is the determination of which content should appear in the article on Cold fusion. It is for that reason that I will disregard and remove any other commentary. It is also for that reason that I will not read the article, its sources, or the ongoing dispute until I am convinced that it is necessary to do so. Neutrality requires a certain level of ignorance, and that ignorance cannot be regained once it has been lost. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   I do not fully understand what point you are attempting to make by providing this link. Could you please elaborate? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   Just because you close your eyes, the room will not be empty. There have been plenty of arguments (or structurally similar statements) made. Why do you think disregarding them will help in the "determination of which content should appear in the article"? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   It is not my intention to disregard logical arguments, but instead to separate those arguments from the name-calling and other content-unrelated issues. I am searching for blue rocks at the bottom of a blue chlorinated pool. Why should I dive in headfirst and sting my eyes when the people who threw the rocks are willing to point them out and provide scuba diving equipment? If you (and all the other involved parties) are able to point to specific sections or diffs rather than restating their arguments, I will read the material you provide, but I will waste neither my time nor my currently unbiased position attempting to find the useful material on my own. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

3. I will respect your role as mediator, Cryptic, because you were recommended to Hipocrite by Jehochman, whom I trust. He wouldn't do that for no reason. It's not clear to me, as well, why Hipocrite developed the list he did. Because you wish to focus on content issues, I will also respect that, and, indeed, believe that it could be helpful. However, as to respecting the result of the mediation, that would depend on what you mean by "respect." I trust that you will decide as you see best, but you are also only one editor. As a neutral editor -- I completely accept your representations on that -- you will be faced with a field rife with complexities and complications, and it's really easy to make snap judgments that are quite wrong. Experts have done it; indeed, the whole position of the field can be seen as based on such judgments. However, if you do your work well, I expect it to be of great influence on the article and on the editorial work. I'll warn you, though, that I was neutral -- or skeptical, actually -- about five months ago. You may be able to keep yourself becoming informed, but, I suspect, it may also be difficult. My position, all along, has been that a neutral judgment of sources, based simply on RS guidelines, would result in a better article than one controlled by editors with POVs about the subject and then about sources based on what those sources say. If a source appears to support a fringe positions, why, it must be a fringe source, to be deprecated or ignored. It's a classic Misplaced Pages problem. You may be able to help, and I'll do everything I can to assist. Thanks for trying.

   I suggest you move this page to your user space. You can use the user page as a consensus page to develop a report, and the user talk page for discussion. That's a practice I've followed with a little success. In your user space, you have a little more authority over the page; sometimes it can make a difference. With just one page, it's easy for discussion to spin out and obscure results; with the user/talk pair, you can keep tight focus and clarity on the user side and let discussion proceed in more detail on the talk side. How you would use that would be up to you: you could, for example, reserve the user page for yourself, for your report, and then let us discuss it and advise you on the talk side. --Abd (talk) 21:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   If you are dissatisfied with Hipocrite's list of involved editors, which users would you suggest omitting/adding? Regarding your concern with my ability to remain neutral and find the best possible solution, I suggest that you read this conversation I had with EdChem if you have not already. Other than that, the only promise I can make is that "I'll do the best I can." Regarding the use of a user subpage, I believe your suggestion is an excellent one. The of user subpage will be quite helpful for cataloging and publishing conclusions later on. The user talk subpage, where this content will soon be located, will be used for discussions such as this one. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   Not dissatisfied, did you think I was? Just puzzled. Does Hipocrite have a dispute with the above editors, or is Hipocrite suggesting that I do? And why EdChem, but I'll look again? Probably some of each. While it would be good to have a list of editors who are "parties," you may also admit others who wish to "testify." It really will be up to you. I didn't see Stephan Schulz as agreeing to participate, just kibbitzing. I think you should ask Hipocrite to clarify what issues he sought your mediation on, because if it isn't about editorial behavior, it's not enough to just identify parties and, indeed, the parties are largely moot except for some process reasons. --Abd (talk) 23:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   While creating this page, I simply asked Hipocrite for a list of the involved editors. The list above reflects the list that he gave me. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

4. Enric Naval (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
5. This seems reasonable to me. Offhand I can think of one other editor, User:Coppertwig, who has been involved in the CF discussion not too many days ago. V (talk) 07:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   That is definitely an oversight on my part. He should have been included, no doubt. Hipocrite (talk) 10:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   No problem. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

6. I wish to participate in the process, am generally willing to respect consensus, I like the process you've set up, and think that a consensus arrived at via mediation is likely to work well and I'm unlikely to try to go against it, but am hesitant to make an absolute commitment to "ultimately agree to respect the final content decisions that we collectively arrive upon." Thank you for arranging this mediation. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   I am glad that you are willing to participate, but hesitancy worries me. The phrase you've highlighted is the most important element of this mediation. The power of any mediation is derived from the fact that the participants all agree beforehand to respect whatever decisions are made. I hope you also understand that "we" in this sentence refers to all of the participants, not to all of the mediators (even though there is only one). --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

What is this mediation about? Is there a specific complaint?

I just read . I had somehow assumed that this would be about longer-term issues. Instead it's about determining which version to revert to while under protection, and there isn't any real dispute worth mediating over that. We have two polls going, one I started and then a competing poll that Hipocrite started for unknown reasons, but the two interpreted together show a strong result, and I doubt that it will get much muddier over the next few days. The list of users was a list of those who had been active with the article, it doesn't indicate dispute. I don't see the need for this mediation. There are many other issues with Hipocrite that have nothing to do with the specific question Hipocrite raised. It seemed you were thinking this would be about cold fusion issues, when, in fact, what Hipocrite asked about was pure process. It's possibly entirely moot if the article comes off protection. Sorry to waste your time. On the other hand, if it seems to you that there is something to mediate, I still would cooperate, but I'm not exercised to try to lay out a case for you, which is what you seem to assume would occur. Maybe Hipocrite will clarify what his issues are and maybe then I'll feel differently. --Abd (talk) 23:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

From the conversation I had with Hipocrite when he asked me to mediate, it seemed that there were several particular issues in the article that editors could not agree on. Based on this diff, I was planning on asking the involved parties to compose a list of these individual content issues, after which we could attack each one and reach a series of individual conclusions. If you don't believe that a purely content-based mediation is necessary, I agree that it would be worthwhile for Hipocrite to provide a preliminary explanation of the issues at hand. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that some assistance with certain issues, particularly about reliable sourcing, could be useful. The immediate problem, though, how we would choose the version to revert to, which prompted the request for mediation and was specific in that request, wasn't a dispute needing mediation, and the time for mediation would be entirely impractical. I.e., if you want to decide whether to open the windows or not for air, you don't name a committee to consider the issue. You just quickly poll those present, if there is any question.

If you like, I can state what I consider the most significant issue, and it's a real logjam at the article, and that would be how we determine what is reliable source. I'd think it simple: we follow WP:RS, as with any other article. --Abd (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer not to address meta-issues in this mediation and support Cryptic's suggestion that we outline a series of actual content disagreements and work from there. Hipocrite (talk) 10:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The reliability of sources will inevitably become an important factor in this mediation, as it will likely affect many of the individual content concerns. It may even be the case that a general discussion may arise regarding the reliability of the available sources or how to determine the reliability of future sources. However, we must crawl before we walk. Our first mission and the majority of our work will be dedicated to addressing individual content issues. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)