Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:42, 7 June 2009

Greetings. Hipocrite has requested that I attempt to mediate a content dispute regarding Cold fusion.

About me

These are facts about me that I consider relevant to this mediation:

• According to this, I have never edited Cold fusion. I do not know anything about cold fusion.
• To the best of my knowledge, I have never worked with Hipocrite, Abd, Verbal, Olorinish, Kevin Baas, Kirk shanahan, EdChem, OMCV, LeadSongDog, Enric Naval, Stephan Schulz, Objectivist, Coppertwig. If my memory fails me and I have worked with any of those editors, please notify me so I can amend the previous statement or, if necessary, recuse myself from the mediation and find someone who would be more objective in my stead.
• I have not read the entirety of Cold fusion nor its talk page. This is not because I am lazy, but because I wish to remain as objective as possible. I believe that if I were to read through Cold fusion in its entirety, I would possibly become biased towards the information that is currently presented in the article. I also believe that a similar effect would occur if I were to read through the entirety of Talk:Cold fusion.
• I am not an administrator. I unsuccessfully requested adminship in February 2009.
• I have very little experience with dispute resolution. I have participated in discussions at WP:RFCN.
• I write and review science-related articles on Misplaced Pages.
• I have never been employed as a scientist of any kind, nor have I ever written a peer-reviewed paper.

Subpage

I have decided to confine my attempted mediation to this subpage for two simple reasons: First, this mediation will likely become quite lengthy and require the use of multiple sections which would otherwise clutter up the talk page. Second, in the time that this mediation takes place, there will likely be unrelated discussions that spring up on the talk page. Such unrelated discussions would interrupt this mediation if it were to occur on the talk page. I would like to make it clear that in no way do I intend to use this subpage as a means of concealing the discussion contained herein. Upon completing my introductory statements, I will provide a link on the talk page and notify the involved editors. If someone wants to add a notice to the top of Talk:Cold fusion, you are more than welcome to do so.

Process

What I have read thus far has illustrated to me that much of this dispute (as is the case with many disputes) is comprised of personal attacks, accusations of personal attacks, personal counterattacks, and, more generally, criticisms of how the involved parties present information rather than criticisms of the information being presented. This will not occur here. Debate and argumentation will occur at points during this mediation process, but posts (or even individual sentences) that serve no purpose other than to criticize another user will be deleted. If you have a problem with the way another user is behaving and I have not already intervened, take it up at Talk:Cold fusion, the talk page of the user, or my talk page. If you simply have a problem with the material that another user presents, please try to make your rebuttal as impersonal as possible: "I believe that your statement of 'such and such' is incorrect. According to 'so and so'..." or "Your reasoning is somewhat flawed in that the gilbo sprocket generator...".

As of yet, I do not have a detailed plan for how to go about resolving this content dispute. I intend to make sure that all the involved parties are aware of this page and agree to work within the guidelines that I have set forth. I then intend to gather from the involved parties a detailed outline of the individual statements, sections, or sources which are in dispute. From there, we will work to resolve those disputes.

Participation

If you have been actively involved in the Cold fusion content dispute, please sign your name below. While there may be discussions in which uninvolved parties may participate, this list is for those who are actively involved in the dispute.

This list will serve three purposes: First, it will insure that all involved parties have been made aware of this mediation process and help us identify any missing parties which should be notified. Second, it will provide an opportunity for the involved parties to ask preliminary questions before the mediation begins. Third, it will serve to verify that the involved parties have read through the introductory material, agree to participate in the process that I have set forth, and ultimately agree to respect the final content decisions that we collectively arrive upon. Alternatively, involved parties who believe that this process is unnecessary or that I am not the best possible choice for a mediator can also sign here and express their concerns or refusal to participate.

1. Hipocrite (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
2. I'm a bit surprised about being named. I have made some comments in the discussion, but I do not have the time to spend on another science vs. pseudoscience conflict. Thus, do not expect extensive contributions to this mediation from me. I do think that the mediator should indeed start from good knowledge of the conflict and read through at least significant parts of the page and the discussion. I also reserve the right to comment on other editors behavior as necessary during this mediation. I don't see this as a pure content conflict. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   Some may agree that there is a behavior conflict as well as a content conflict. I have neither the authority nor the interest to mediate behavioral issues. On this page, the only thing that I consider to be relevant is the determination of which content should appear in the article on Cold fusion. It is for that reason that I will disregard and remove any other commentary. It is also for that reason that I will not read the article, its sources, or the ongoing dispute until I am convinced that it is necessary to do so. Neutrality requires a certain level of ignorance, and that ignorance cannot be regained once it has been lost. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   I do not fully understand what point you are attempting to make by providing this link. Could you please elaborate? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   Just because you close your eyes, the room will not be empty. There have been plenty of arguments (or structurally similar statements) made. Why do you think disregarding them will help in the "determination of which content should appear in the article"? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   It is not my intention to disregard logical arguments, but instead to separate those arguments from the name-calling and other content-unrelated issues. I am searching for blue rocks at the bottom of a blue chlorinated pool. Why should I dive in headfirst and sting my eyes when the people who threw the rocks are willing to point them out and provide scuba diving equipment? If you (and all the other involved parties) are able to point to specific sections or diffs rather than restating their arguments, I will read the material you provide, but I will waste neither my time nor my currently unbiased position attempting to find the useful material on my own. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

3. I will respect your role as mediator, Cryptic, because you were recommended to Hipocrite by Jehochman, whom I trust. He wouldn't do that for no reason. It's not clear to me, as well, why Hipocrite developed the list he did. Because you wish to focus on content issues, I will also respect that, and, indeed, believe that it could be helpful. However, as to respecting the result of the mediation, that would depend on what you mean by "respect." I trust that you will decide as you see best, but you are also only one editor. As a neutral editor -- I completely accept your representations on that -- you will be faced with a field rife with complexities and complications, and it's really easy to make snap judgments that are quite wrong. Experts have done it; indeed, the whole position of the field can be seen as based on such judgments. However, if you do your work well, I expect it to be of great influence on the article and on the editorial work. I'll warn you, though, that I was neutral -- or skeptical, actually -- about five months ago. You may be able to keep yourself becoming informed, but, I suspect, it may also be difficult. My position, all along, has been that a neutral judgment of sources, based simply on RS guidelines, would result in a better article than one controlled by editors with POVs about the subject and then about sources based on what those sources say. If a source appears to support a fringe positions, why, it must be a fringe source, to be deprecated or ignored. It's a classic Misplaced Pages problem. You may be able to help, and I'll do everything I can to assist. Thanks for trying.

   I suggest you move this page to your user space. You can use the user page as a consensus page to develop a report, and the user talk page for discussion. That's a practice I've followed with a little success. In your user space, you have a little more authority over the page; sometimes it can make a difference. With just one page, it's easy for discussion to spin out and obscure results; with the user/talk pair, you can keep tight focus and clarity on the user side and let discussion proceed in more detail on the talk side. How you would use that would be up to you: you could, for example, reserve the user page for yourself, for your report, and then let us discuss it and advise you on the talk side. --Abd (talk) 21:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   If you are dissatisfied with Hipocrite's list of involved editors, which users would you suggest omitting/adding? Regarding your concern with my ability to remain neutral and find the best possible solution, I suggest that you read this conversation I had with EdChem if you have not already. Other than that, the only promise I can make is that "I'll do the best I can." Regarding the use of a user subpage, I believe your suggestion is an excellent one. The of user subpage will be quite helpful for cataloging and publishing conclusions later on. The user talk subpage, where this content will soon be located, will be used for discussions such as this one. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   Not dissatisfied, did you think I was? Just puzzled. Does Hipocrite have a dispute with the above editors, or is Hipocrite suggesting that I do? And why EdChem, but I'll look again? Probably some of each. While it would be good to have a list of editors who are "parties," you may also admit others who wish to "testify." It really will be up to you. I didn't see Stephan Schulz as agreeing to participate, just kibbitzing. I think you should ask Hipocrite to clarify what issues he sought your mediation on, because if it isn't about editorial behavior, it's not enough to just identify parties and, indeed, the parties are largely moot except for some process reasons. --Abd (talk) 23:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

   While creating this page, I simply asked Hipocrite for a list of the involved editors. The list above reflects the list that he gave me. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

4. Enric Naval (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
5. This seems reasonable to me. Offhand I can think of one other editor, User:Coppertwig, who has been involved in the CF discussion not too many days ago. V (talk) 07:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   That is definitely an oversight on my part. He should have been included, no doubt. Hipocrite (talk) 10:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   No problem. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

6. I wish to participate in the process, am generally willing to respect consensus, I like the process you've set up, and think that a consensus arrived at via mediation is likely to work well and I'm unlikely to try to go against it, but am hesitant to make an absolute commitment to "ultimately agree to respect the final content decisions that we collectively arrive upon." Thank you for arranging this mediation. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   I am glad that you are willing to participate, but hesitancy worries me. The phrase you've highlighted is the most important element of this mediation. The power of any mediation is derived from the fact that the participants all agree beforehand to respect whatever decisions are made. I hope you also understand that "we" in this sentence refers to all of the participants, not to all of the mediators (even though there is only one). --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   Misplaced Pages:Mediation says "Agreement to mediate does not obligate the parties to accept any proposed agreements." I'm a member of the Harmonious editing club; I voluntarily follow 1RR; I tend to act in a mediator-like role, and I believe I have a good record of following consensus. I plan to follow Misplaced Pages policies, including WP:CONSENSUS. However, I generally don't sign blank cheques or agree to as-yet-unspecified terms. You can choose to trust me, or not. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   First, Misplaced Pages:Mediation is not policy. I am not obligated to adhere to any of its proposed guidelines. Second, there is an inherent incompatibility between your statements "I have a good record of following consensus. I plan to follow Misplaced Pages policies, including WP:CONSENSUS." and " am hesitant to make an absolute commitment to 'ultimately agree to respect the final content decisions that we collectively arrive upon.'" Do you or do you not agree to adhere to the eventual consensuses that will be arrived upon by the participants of this mediation?

   I applaud your optimism, but I don't wish to predict the future, i.e. whether any consensus will necessarily arise out of this mediation or not. WP:CONSENSUS says "Consensus can change". If something in some future situation will be the reasonable thing to do or will be required by policy, why would you need me to say something about it now? Perhaps you're confusing the concepts of mediation and arbitration. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   I'm increasingly worried about this. In the absence of some definition of "consensus among the participants," and with the selection of participants being highly likely to be biased at this point, which I'll explain, I can't agree to be bound by that consensus. I just ran, a bit more than a month ago, an RfC on admin misbehavior, at which two-thirds of the participants argued that I was completely off-base, many of them that I should be banned for even raising the issue; and many of those with the latter argument are represented in the list of possible parties here. Yet, at ArbComm, I was confirmed in my claims by almost every arbitrator. What was "consensus" at the RfC? Did I abide by it? Should I have abided by it?

   This mediation effort was initially defined by a specific issue for which mediation was not necessary, it was a transient issue, probably moot, how to determine what version to revert to during protection. Instead of addressing that directly, Cryptic, you proceeded to define a much more complex mediation process than would be appropriate for that issue. Fine. There are other issues. But they have not yet been defined, and until they have been defined, there isn't any basis for deciding who should be a party, and, as well, for my decision to participate in the mediation. I'm willing to mediate one issue at a time. You may well take that approach, but if you are questioning Coppertwig's commitment, you really should question mine.

   Here is what I suggest: let a complainant define an issue, a single issue. Pursue that informally as an independent editor who seeks to help resolve a single issue. If that proves impossible, and if it seems that expansion is needed, then use this page as a more complex form of informal mediation. For that one issue, invite other interested editors to participate. No promise to "respect" a decision is needed. Rather, later, failure to respond to the attempted intervention of a neutral editor can be used against an editor, it's a precondition for RfC, for example, likewise for RfAr.

   I absolutely respect your intentions, Cryptic. But you've stated that you have no experience in mediation. Fine, you can learn. But starting with a complicated process, burdened with promises that editors may later find conflict with WP:IAR, isn't a good idea, and that the meaning of the promises isn't clear doesn't help. Just pick a dispute and talk with both Hipocrite and I and anyone else who wants to help, and do your best to find compromises and consensus. You might report these efforts on the user page to which this talk page is attached, as a history of "mediations." I assure you I will fully cooperate with this, and will confine my comments as you request. You have already removed comments from me, which, again, I fully accept and respect. Thanks for your efforts, so far. Normally, for mediation to be of effect for further process, it must take place on the Talk page of the editor subject to further process. There is no need that all the process take place there, only that your efforts be documented there. So if, for example, you find that my positions have been improper, you can then attempt to gain my agreement on my talk page, as could Hipocrite or anyone else. If, then, I act contrary to this, I could be subject to RfC. I can't post to Hipocrite talk, but Hipocrite has waived notice, etc., so it could be said that I've already attempted to negotiate a dispute, pick any dispute. But there isn't someone else who has attempted this with the same dispute. You could be that person, as could be anyone. Good luck, I'll help as I can, and do, still, encourage your efforts. --Abd (talk) 19:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

   What I propose is this: You (the involved editors) will populate the list of specific content issues which Coppertwig started below. We will then choose one of those issues to discuss. As a neutral third party, I will provide input and ask questions in an attempt to find the best possible solution for everyone involved. When I am able to identify such a solution, I will post my thoughts on the user page and we will move on to the next issue. I will strike the statement in question regarding consensus. It seemed like a good idea at the beginning, but after putting a considerable amount of thought into the matter, I realize that it isn't really logical. If you choose to have further discussions on the issues after this mediation, if you choose to incorporate bits and pieces of my suggestions and ignore others, or if "consensus" here (if such an event actually occurs) is entirely ignored afterwards, so be it. That will be your choice. Does this sound reasonably to everyone? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 20:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

7. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to participate, or what is involved, but I'm not against anything that might help the project. I've been more involved on the talk page than editing the article. If putting my name here means more than just being willing to look in and add a comment now and then, please let me know! Verbal chat 21:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
8. I'm in a similar situation as Verbal. My interest in CF is insuring that sources are represented in the proper context and given due weight. My involvement has been limited mostly to the talk page for several months. Most recently my concerns on the talk page centered around a large portion of material derived from Storm's book. Specifically a small portion of text concerning biological transmutation. Latter I found out that Storm's book also took the phenomenon of spontaneous combustion seriously. It seems Storm wants to believe in things very badly (while I enjoyed the the x-files its not how the real world works). I believed the entire Storm book should be ignored in terms of scientific fact and theory since the author has embraced so many ideas well outside the mainstream. At the same time I do think the response that proponents of CF offer to the mainstream/historic perspective should be presented with the proper weight (I'm not sure how this would best be done and that is why I stick to the talk page). I also think Storm is a reliable source for what many CF proponents believe but I don't think his ideas can be treated as anything more than wp:fringe.--OMCV (talk) 04:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
9. I've nearly given up hope of being able to improve the article, so for weeks now I've limited my input to reference gnoming. The last straw was having been reverted for claiming that the scope of Naturwissenschaften is what that journal's official site says it is: Life sciences. I don't have sufficient patience to continue reading through thousands of words discussing the most trivial of points. I'll opt out of this unless someone asserts that I've behaved badly.LeadSongDog come howl 07:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
10. I don't really understand what "participation" is, but I want to participate, if it means that I read stuff and comment when I have something to contribute. Cryptic, what is the difference between an editor participating in mediation and one who is not? I actually think the article is pretty good these days. Olorinish (talk) 13:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

    The only requirement I place on editors who "participate" is that they read the introductory material I've written before they sign their name. This insures that the validity of whatever conclusions I publish will not be disputed by such arguments as "Wait, screw that, he's not an admin!" Also, if you list yourself as participating, I may ask you to make comments if your name is brought up in discussion. For example, if an editor provides a diff involving something you've written, and another editor argues that the first was misconstruing what you had written, I would ask you (via your talk page) to clarify the meaning for us. Other than that, there is no obligation to participate if you are "participating". Does this answer your question? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 15:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

11. I am signing to acknowledge that I have been notified. But I haven't been very active on the cold fusion page or discussion for some time. Frankly I haven't even been following it all that much lately. I'm not aware of any significant disputes on it currently and consequently don't believe I will have much to offer here. But for what it's worth, I'm here. Kevin Baas 14:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Content issues

I was planning on waiting until we had finished assembling a list of participants, but Coppertwig has taken the initiative to begin the list of content issues. All involved parties are welcome to expand or modify the list. Signing individual entries is not necessary.

• Whether or not the beryllium-8 hypothesis should be mentioned in the article.
• Whether or not the patent should be mentioned in the article.
• Whether or not the American Chemical Society Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook should be included in the bibliography.

Marwan, Jan; Krivit, Steven B. (2008), Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook, Washington, D.C.: American Chemical Society, ISBN 978-0-8412-6966-8

• Whether or not to include the following text: "According to Storms (2007), no published theory has been able to meet all the requirements of basic physical principles, while adequately explaining the experimental results he considers established or otherwise worthy of theoretical consideration." link to context.
• To what extent to include speculative material and which sources can be used to verify this material.