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Intro change

The change made to the intro does not make sense: "Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar). The teachings of Prem Rawat include a meditation technique referred to as Knowledge. "

Pergamino (talk) 13:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Teachings of Prem Rawat tell us that there are 4 techniques. The current lead (a technique) is therefore incorrect, as well as clumsily written. Do other sources agree he used the phrase "spiritual tranquillity"? I have never come across it before. , and it sounds like OR. Rumiton (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The recent change makes sense, though it is a little clumsy grammatically. I think the point was to make for a better link. But it leaves the the first sentence as a fragment. Maybe we should just undo it.   Will Beback  talk  17:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence is just a line giving the man's name and titles. It should be a sentence in the form X is Y (Prem Rawat is...). PiCo (talk) 23:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the first sentence should be a complete sentence with a verb and it should give the main claim to notability. See WP:MOSBIO.   Will Beback  talk  23:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Tried to turn it into a proper lead sentence but not entirely happy - how do you describe his line of work? (Wonder what he puts on his passport?) PiCo (talk) 01:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that passports list professions. In any case, I don't think the qualifier you used is correct. A more correct description would be "Prem Rawat (blah, blah, bah), is a public speaker and a teacher of meditation techniques referred to as Knowledge". The "formerly guru maharaj ji" already establishes that he was a guru. Pergamino (talk) 01:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:MOSBIO#Opening_paragraph

• 1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles));
• 2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death);
• 3. Nationality –
  • 1. In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. (Note: There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries. For more information, please see the essay "Misplaced Pages:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" and the talk page archives.)
  • 2. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
• 4. What the person did;
• 5. Why the person is significant.

That looks pretty good to me. But I'd cut it a bit shorter, like: "Prem Rawat (blah, blah, bah), is a teacher of meditation techniques." Leave out the "public speaker" (that's how he does what what he does - more important is what he speaks about), and the bit about "referred to as Knowledge" (a little more detail than is needed in a first sentence - it can come later). Incidentally, what does he speak publicaly about? PiCo (talk) 02:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, that may work. The official site has some Zen-like quotes but nothing else, and in following the links from the official site I find http://tprf.org/: "Prem Rawat has traveled the world for forty years, bringing a message of peace"; and this http://mspeaks.com/ which seems to be just on what he speaks about. Pergamino (talk) 02:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Prem Pal Singh Rawat ... is a religious figure and entrepreneur of Indian origin. The teachings of Prem Rawat include a meditation technique referred to as Knowledge.

Rumiton pointed out that the techniques are plural, so it might better to make that change. Also, "spiritual" might be better than "religious" because the movement asserts that it isn't a religion.   Will Beback  talk  03:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Would it be more accurate to call him a "spiritual teacher"? Could also mention the meditation technique if it's really central, but from listening to to the talk on the link I didn't get the idea that meditation was what he himself felt was central. PiCo (talk) 07:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The meditation is central. It's just that there are public presentations and private presentations. The actual techniques are "secret", so public presentations don't go into details, if I understand correctly.   Will Beback  talk  07:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Maybe the place to start would be some references ? What evidence is there that Rawat ‘is’ an entrepreneur ? or that he is ‘religious’ or ‘spiritual’ ? The abundant sources are for what Rawat ‘was’ not what he is, this problem with ‘tense’ has undermined the accuracy of this article from the very beginning. The MOSBIO format only reinforces this problem and editors need to think creatively if a false picture is not to be given to the reader.

Rawat ‘is’ (was) notable for being a ‘god child’ leader of an Indian originated religious movement that was translated into ‘Western’ contexts, much of this notability arising from the various controversies affecting this process of translation. The vast bulk of Reliable Sources available to Misplaced Pages editors on this subject date from between 1971 and 1981 – this being the period in which Rawat was notable. Of those sources which have been published since 1981, a majority reference only the period prior to 1985 with the last 20 plus years being mentioned only in contrast to the earlier period.

The meditation itself hardly stands as a point of notability (other than being ‘secret’ it’s not exceptional), though it was certainly the locus of the presentation of the belief system developed by Hans Rawat. I would suggest that the words “is a religious figure and entrepreneur of Indian origin” be replaced by “succeded in 1966 to the leadership of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad), following the death of his father Hans Rawat.” This would be the end of the first paragrah

I then suggest altering the second paragraph to read:

Having become at aged eight Satguru to the several million adherents of the Divine Light Mission, Rawat gained further prominence five years later when he travelled to the UK and US. In the early 1970s the Divine Light Mission was judged to be the fastest growing new religious movement in the West. In 1973, at age sixteen, Rawat was granted emancipated minor status and married a Western woman, which divided his family and the movement. Prem Rawat retained control of the movement outside of India, and took a more active role in its guidance. He became a United States citizen in 1977. Rawat later abandoned the Indian aspects of his teachings to make his message more universally acceptable.

The third paragraph would be unchanged except for the addition of “Several organizations have assisted Rawat in his mission, including Elan Vital (1983), and The Prem Rawat Foundation (2001)”

The issue of entrepreneurship is dubious - although there claims on pro Rawat websites that he is an entrepreneur, there are no public documents detailing Directorships, CEO posts or anything else that would confirm the claims. The issue of spirituality is best avoided in the lead because it is tied to the changes which need detailed descriptions. What the lead needs to do is set up the article as a primarily historical account of what Rawat was, not what he is - because the former involves notability, and the latter doesn't. The use of the term "Satguru" as opposed to "guru" is important in respect of the article references to the origins of the Hans (Prem) Rawat belief system. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 11:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

As the person who put this word "entrepreneur" into the lead sentence can I just say that I now regard it as a complete red herring and would like to see it removed. I'd like the see the lead sentence say Prem "is" rather than "was" something - it makes it sound as if he's dead. How about: "PR (insert interminable titles) gained prominence in the early 1970s as the titular (is that right?) teen-aged leader of the Divine Light Mission, described at the time as fastest-growing religious movement in the West. As an adult he split with the original DLM (if that's right - correct me if I've got it wrong) and is now a spiritual teacher emphasising meditation practices" (again, if that's right). What I'm trying to do here is establish the grounds of his notability in the first sentence - this sentence should be able to stand alone as a summary of the entire article, even before going on to the lead itself. PiCo (talk) 11:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

If not exactly a red herring, it certainly does not help to define the subject's notability. Whatever happened to discussing edits on the talk page first? Rumiton (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

PiCo, what you are seeking is laudable, but you are mashing history in your attempt to achieve it. If you are not happy with the wording I've suggested, then you need to set out your preffered wording strictly against the chronology - the key points are.

• 1966 Hans Rawat dies, Prem (aged 8) becomes leader (Satguru) of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) in India.
• 1971 Prem (aged 13)travels to the UK and US - there's lots of media attention.
• 1974/1975 The wider DLM movement splits along family lines, after which the belief system in the non Indian base diverges from the Hans Rawat doctrine.
• 1981(ish) The non Indian DLM movement shows no further sign of expansion, and actually retrenches progressively thereafter.

Please be aware that if you restructure the lead, you may need to seek different references than those currently used, which may be highly specific to the text as it is. The issues to note are that Prem didn't 'gain prominence' in 1966, he was already known to his father's followers, but rather he was 'elevated' on his father's death; adoption of the DLM by elements of the 'counter culture' in Europe, Australasia and the US in the early 1970s, brought Prem as head (titular is correct but you need a source for it) of DLM, to media atention in those geographic areas. Western academics started to take an interest in Rawat largely through the youth/counter culture aspect, while the media were exercised firstly by ice cream and cars, then by girls, booze and cars. By the end of the 1970s no one outside Prem's existing loyal followers was interested and it's been downhill in the 'prominence' stakes thereafter. Contemporary Indian 'spiritual' imports such as TM have continued to have large memberships and affect societies into which they were introduced and media and academic sources reflect this, additionally other Indian 'spiritual' leaders/speakers/teachers have impacted on Western countries - Amma, SS Ravi Shankar becoming far better known than Prem Rawat. Prominence is necessarilly a relative term - Prem Rawat was indeed once prominent, but compared to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Amma, he is no longer.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 14:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• I've restored the old lead, the one we had before a random user came through.
• Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice called Knowledge.

There's nothing significantly wrong with this version, though the wikilinking is a little clumsy. Let's not keep rewriting the intro unless there's a good reason.   Will Beback  talk  17:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• • The "random user", PiCo, is making good points despite the initial unintended blunder. Hey, PiCo, don't be discourage by Will Beback! Ascribing the adjective "random" isn't very welcoming, but I guess some people in wikipedia are less collegial than others as I have personally learned. Pergamino (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
    • The user I was referring to is Billyoffland. PiCo has been engaging in useful discussion.   Will Beback  talk  19:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think Pico and NikWright2 have both made good suggestions for the lede. Here are things I think need to change:
1) change "a meditation practice called Knowledge" to "a meditation practice he calls Knowledge." This matches the lede of Teachings of Prem Rawat, which policy requires.
2) Make more clear that he succeeded his father as head of DLM. The current phrasing makes it sounded like he up and started preaching out of the blue and quickly acquired 3 million followers, which is inaccurate and misleading.
3) reword the organizations line, which makes him sound like the passive recipient of help from these organizations, again misleading and serving the POV of his organizations. Better yet, drop it altogether from the first paragraph.
4) Cut the third paragraph drastically. It has way too much information for the lead, and much of it reads like a brochure from his organization. The simplest way would be to end it after the second sentence (with 'body of dogma.') To wit:

"Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father as leader of the Divine Light Mission and its 3 million followers in India. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message. "

2nd paragraph the same, 3rd ends after second sentence. Msalt (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'd agree to the first sentence as you propose, but don't agree with your other ideas and comparisons with brochures and as having too much information. It is a good summary of the article and quite accurate. Pergamino (talk) 20:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Is everyone else on board with the first sentence? Let's put aside the third paragraph for now and look at the second sentence of the lede. I think it's important to state in the lede that he succeeded his father as head of DLM at a young age, because that was (and remains) his main claim to notability. It also "sets the scene" for the information that follows in the clearest, most concise way.

In contrast, the current wording -- "At age 8 he became guru to 8 million ... 3 organizations have assisted him" -- is both longer winded and less accurate a picture of what happened (in my humble opinion). Thoughts? Msalt (talk) 18:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That's fine by me, but can you add (Divya Sandesh Parishad) to run on from "Divine Light Mission", because although there will be a link to the DLM article, we should not assume the reader will immediately grasp the chronological sequence of the development of separate organisations using the Divine Light Mission name. Providing the Divya Sandesh Parishad name makes a useful reference point to distinguish between the organisation of Hans Ji Maharaj and the later "western" DLM's. Also I think Hans Ji Maharaj should appear in that first sentence. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The Hans Ji addition makes sense, but I don't quite see how DSP would fit in. (Can you suggest wording?) My gut feeling is that that would be too much detail for the lede but might make sense in the article body. How's this:

"Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (and its 3 million followers) in India. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message. "

That looks fine to me. It's an improvement over the existing lead.   Will Beback  talk  00:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, looks fine to me too (just remember to link to the teachings: " a meditation practice he calls Knowledge"). But keep the names of the organizations there, unless you want to move that to somewhere else in the intro. Pergamino (talk) 03:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Good points, Pergamino. I agree, the other organizations should be in the intro, probably at the end of the third paragraph. How about this, after "acceptable" (I know the exact wording is important): "The Divine Light Mission was disbanded in the West in the early 1980s, succeeded by the organizations Elan Vital (1983), and The Prem Rawat Foundation (2001)." Msalt (talk) 04:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• ok Pergamino (talk) 05:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Since we're tinkering - "Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly Guru Maharaj Ji) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as guru to 3 million followers in India and gained international prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Momento 01:40, 16 April 2009.

Momento! You've got to be kidding, right? There are 8 Arbcom votes to topic ban you for a year, in large part over your edit warring about Balyogeshwar. And now you're going to try to sneak it in, with no description other than "since we're tinkering" in an unsigned comment? Um... some might consider that bad faith editing. Msalt (talk) 03:58, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Still fighting over "Balyogeshwar"? Let's leave that dispute to mediation, as we agreed.   Will Beback  talk  02:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• suggested amendment to accommodate (Divya Sandesh Parishad) but also remove reference to follower numbers.

"Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission(Divya Sandesh Parishad) in India. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message.".

The adherence numbers are given by several sources as being as high as 8 million, but there is no source which distinguishes between followers of Hans Rawat, (and latterly Prem) and the following of DLM/DSP. The problem we have to address is the chronology of change from adherence to Hans Rawat (which predated DLM/DSP), the inheritance of that adherence by Prem - and subsequently the split of that adherence between Prem and Satpal. By according the adherence numbers to the DLM/DSP, rather than to Hans Rawat, it makes the explanation of how the adherence was later split somewhat problematic as Satpal took over DSP, but did not attract all those who had previosly accepted Prem as the Satguru. As there is ambiguity that needs explation I suggest the adherence numbers not appear in the lede. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really up to speed on the numbers issue, but I think we need something to indicate the approximate scale. Dropping the numbers altogether would, I think, allow some readers to think the number of adherents was much smaller than it was. How about "succeeded his father as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) and its milliions of followers in India." ?? If we had evidence of a sharp drop off in membership, you could say "and millions of its followers in India", but unless there is such evidence I think the first wording is more neutral. Msalt (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• That's a sensible approach. Pergamino (talk) 17:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, Downton lists the Indian membership at 1.2 million by the early 1970s.   Will Beback  talk  17:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest "succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad)and becoming the new Satguruto his father's several million Indian followers". Divya Sandesh Parishad had only been in existence for six year when Hans Rawat died - yet he had been 'teaching' since at least 1930; I realise that the sources we have, frequently use DLM as the reference point for adherence numbers, but we don't actually have a reference for the 1966 figures which makes sense. We do have a clear statement of the membership of the DSP (as distinct from adherence to the Satguru (Hans or Prem) in 1970 that is "one lac" or 100,000.

• Shri Maharaj Ji realised the necessity of following a modern technique for propagation, and wished to provide for his followers an organisation in which they could work for the betterment of mankind. Therefore, in 1960 the mission was named the Divine Light Mission and registered at Patna. For the first time membership in the Mission was recorded. This allowed Maharaj Ji to see the definite growth of membership, enabling him to make practical plans in accordance with the wishes of the members. At Present the Mission has its branches all over India as well as in England and South Africa. Its membership runs approximately into one lac. .

This was written by the incumbent Secretary of the DSP who might be considered an authorative source. Note also the mention of 'branches' in England and S.A, as distinct from the later nationally independent DLMs. The Divine Light Mission article uses this source for a figure of 6 million in 1966 but this is clearly a confusion between adherence to the teaching and actual membership of the DSP association; the DSP Secretary would hardly be talking of one lac, if the actual membership was in the millions. I think the construction I've suggested may be a bit 'weaselish' but if we have to quote numbers in the lede I can't see an alternative that isn't going to be confusing, if not outright misleading. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 20:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, and I don't think it's weaselish at all, just precise. I like this wording a bit better but same meaning I think: "succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) and as the new Satguru to millions of Indian followers."

• You need to add that he was 8 years-old when he became guru, which is one of the things that made him notable. Pergamino (talk) 21:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's in there. See below. Msalt (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

New Lede (Draft including above suggestions)

Reset here for clarity, and because I think we're close to done if not completely done here:

Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar) teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission (Divya Sandesh Parishad) and as the new Satguru to millions of Indian followers. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message.

Rawat has established his teachings in over eighty countries, and in the early 1970s the Divine Light Mission was judged to be the fastest growing new religious movement in the West. In 1973, at age sixteen, he was granted emancipated minor status and married a Western woman, which divided his family and the movement. Prem Rawat retained control of the movement outside of India, and took a more active role in its guidance. He became a United States citizen in 1977. He later abandoned the Indian aspects of his teachings to make his message more universally acceptable. The Divine Light Mission was disbanded in the West in the early 1980s, succeeded by the organizations Elan Vital (1983), and The Prem Rawat Foundation (2001).

Msalt (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy with that. The description of DLM disbanding is an issue, but it should be resolved on the DLM and Elan Vital pages first and changes made here as a consequence of that. I've made some observations at --Nik Wright2 (talk) 07:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Great. Everyone seems to be on board, so I'm going to put this in. Msalt (talk) 07:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I also made a slight change to the alternate names -- removing the parens, so "also known as Maharaji (formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar)" became "also known as Maharaji and formerly known as Guru Mahjaraj Ji and Balyogeshwar,". I don't think this would be controversial, and I think it definitely reads better, but since we didn't discuss it I put it in a separate edit in case anyone wants to revert. Msalt (talk) 08:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me.--Rainer P. (talk) 08:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Aldridge citation

"Though he originally aspired to bring about world peace, the idea being that peace would come to the world as individuals experienced inner peace, he now places his attention on helping individuals, which according to him takes priority over societal aims." How did this bit of miscarried logic ever get into the lead section? Grammar constructs a contradiction, where content actually does not. And how do the footnotes support the statement? I am going to delete the sentence, if it cannot be improved. Rawat stated from the very beginnings, that he was going to bring peace to single human beings, and that was how peace was to be spread in the "world", and never claimed anything else. There was no change in strategy. He is still working on it (said so in Berlin 2008), and (O.R.) quite successfully so.--Rainer P. (talk) 23:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

That's almost a verbatim copy of what a recent scholarly book says.

• Originally he aspired to bring about world peace, but now he focuses on the needs of the individual, which he says take priority over the demands of society. Aldridge, p. 59.

Do we have a source for your assertion? Please don't delete this text until we have agreement on this.   Will Beback  talk  23:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh sorry, Will, you are right and I had got the footnotes mixed up. It is indeed what Aldrige says, even though it is a weak statement for a lead, and if the section was to be shortened, this one should go out, for the named reason.-Rainer P. (talk) 03:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC) It can't be deleted then, but should be moved to a less prominent place, perhaps in "Westernisation". Opinions?-Rainer P. (talk) 03:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's deal with one change at a time.   Will Beback  talk  04:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Now that the other matter has been completed, let's return to this. I agree with Rainer's point and think we should move this out of the lead and down to "teachings". The wording can also be improved. I propose:

• He says he offers practical ways to achieve spiritual tranquillity by anyone. Though he originally aspired to bring about world peace, he now places his attention on helping individuals rather than society. Alridge, Alan — Religion in the Contemporary World (2007) — p.59

Any objections?   Will Beback  talk  05:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Are there any other notable scholars who state that there has been such a change of goal? If not, the notion that there was one is digressive and should be handled very critically, preferably omitted.-Rainer P. (talk) 15:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understnad the principle behind your objeciton. Are you proposing that all asertions in the article need to be cited from two or more scholars? That is not the normal standard for Wikipeia articles, and this is not an extraordinary claim.   Will Beback  talk  22:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course it is an exceptional claim. It suggests that there has been a fundamental change in goals and teachings, when actually there hasn't. Who else supports this claim?--Rainer P. (talk) 11:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

IIRC, there is no doubt that he has changed much of the form in which he presents his teachings over time -- is there a cite that says his basic premise of inner peace or world peace did not change over that period? I would not intrinsically regard it as a bone of contention for sure. Collect (talk) 11:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, much of the form has changed, nobody denies this. But Aldridge claims a change of goals, which is a very different thing. It is rather a constitutional characteristic of Rawat's teachings that its goal has NOT changed over time, and surely one can find sources for that. What does IIRC mean?--Rainer P. (talk) 12:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

IIRC means "I have been online for way too many years" :) Actually "If I Recall Correctly." Has the change in form led in any way to a perception that there was a corresponding change in focus (note that I suggest "goal" may be the problem word here) and that the newer form appears to focus more on self-contentment and peace than the earlier form did? Collect (talk) 12:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I can't assess perception of others. There is certainly an important point in accentuating that through all the many surface changes - from 70ies to now - there has never been a change in substance. But that is pretty much the contrary of what the current edit suggests, that's why it's an exceptional claim. It signifies the essential difference between adaptability and arbitrariness.--Rainer P. (talk) 12:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps something closer to "Through all the changes in form of his presentation, the core teachings remained the same. The focus, however, came to be more specifically placed on self-contentment then on a world peace movement"? Something closer to that, and avoiding the word "goal" which I thought was your primary issue? Collect (talk) 13:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is the word 'goal' at issue when the proposed source doesn't use that word ? And what is the source for "world peace movement" ? this term has specific connotations and use should be supported by a reference, not introduced as an editorial interpretation of what Divine Light Mission may or may not have been. Rainer's objection to Alridge is misplaced and the text should reflect as closely as possible Alridge's original wording.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 16:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Nik is right. The original wording says: Though he aspired to bring about world peace..., that's where goal comes from. Rawat never claimed to be part of a "world peace movement', but he said something like: I will establish peace in this world (the 1971 Delhi "peace bomb"). This is what he did and does. "Establish" like in: a food programme was established in a country - this does not mean, everybody will be fed. He has thus been continually establishing peace in this world by teaching his Knowledge to single individuals, it is the very core of his teachings, there has been no change, except in the way his mission is being propagated. Technology has changed a lot, so there is no need for large gatherings when everybody is online. It is really a superficial change. You would not mention, that his car looks different than it did 40 years ago. Ron Geaves is very explicit on the consistency of Rawat's teachings, if you need sources for the fact that there was no substantial change. The changing in outward appearance was solely a consequence of technolocical advance. Alridge's statement is exceptional, and if reported at all, should be characterised as such. I see no need to mention it at all, as it is contentious and does not help the article.--Rainer P. (talk) 17:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting take -- so you feel the changes were due to technology and that the shift from Hinduism was a technoligical one? The article pretty much says it was a sociological change. Perhaps "The focus shifted from "establishing peace in this world" to a stronger focus on self-contentment" ? Collect (talk) 17:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

It appears that there's no consensus to retain the Aldridge quote, which is more germane to the article on "Teachings" anyway. I'll just delete it from the intro and suggest that we either discuss adding similar material to the "teachings" section of this article or to the "teachings" article itself.   Will Beback  talk 

I disagree. There's no such consensus to delete it, although may be a consensus to move it to another place in the article. Pergamino (talk) 13:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

We've been discussing it now for a week and no one seemed to like it. There was no consensus to add it in the first place: just the opposite. It certainly doesn't belong in the lead, and there's a question of whether it belongs anywhere. Please find a consensus before adding it back.   Will Beback  talk  19:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This material, which has been put back by Pergamino, is now in the wrong location, since it discusses his teachings rather than an event.   Will Beback  talk  16:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

No consensus. It's still an exceptional and misleading claim and would have to be amended by sourced statements of the contrary (e.g. Geaves), or else omitted completely.-Rainer P. (talk) 18:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

• OK. I see that there's strong opposition to this so I'll remove it, but I still don't understand why it can't be used. Pergamino (talk) 02:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It could be used, I think, if it were proportionally weighed against the predominant view that there has been an essential consistency in Rawat’s teachings, through many changes in appearance. Otherwise the quote would be misleading. That would in a way enhance the article’s informational content, but make it more bloated and less readable. I think your decision is wise.---Rainer P. (talk) 08:19, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Some additional comments

The first paragraph of the lede states, "At the age of eight, he succeeded his father Hans Ji Maharaj as leader of the Divine Light Mission" Further into the article we read, "Because of his youth, effective control of the DLM was shared by the whole family." And in the DLM article we read, "As Rawat grew older, he began to take a more active role in the movement and, when he turned sixteen, following the financially disastrous Millennium '73 festival, he took administrative control of the US branch. His increasing independence and his marriage to a non-Indian in 1974 caused a permanent rift with his mother and two of his brothers. They returned to India, where his eldest brother Satpal Maharaj gained control of the Indian DLM."

I am at a disadvantage because I do not have copies of the sources. Do Downton and Lewis disagree with Melton and Fahlbusch or is the first paragraph wrong? My guess is that, as the articles state, Rawat did not take control because at 8 years old he was was far too young, probably never took control of the Indian branch and did not assume control of the US branch until he turned 16.

The first paragraph should therefore read,
Prem Pal Singh Rawat (Hindi: प्रेम पाल सिंह रावत) (born December 10, 1957), also known as Maharaji and formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji and Balyogeshwar, teaches a meditation practice he calls Knowledge. At the age of eight after the death of his father, Hans Ji Maharaj, he became Satguru to millions of Indian followers. He gained further prominence at thirteen when he traveled to the West to spread his message.

The last part of the last sentence in Paragraph 3 may also problematic. "...which according to him takes priority over societal aims. " appears to be a vague, sweeping statement. What societal aims? Does Aldridge support his statement by quoting Rawat or are we expected to accept what may be an aberrant finding without supporting evidence? Again I am at a disadvantage because I do not have a copy of the book. --Zanthorp (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your main point. I'm pretty sure that there are sources which say that the subject became the spiritual leader or head of the DLM on the death of his father, when he was proclaimed the satguru or Perfect Master. I don't believe any of the sources contradict each other on the basic framework, which is that he had little control when he was very young, but that he took on more responsibility as he grew older. I think that deleting the DLM name from the lede would be removing the subject's chief claim of notability.

As for the "priority over societal aims", that is consistent with many sources that I've read, according to which the subject says that inner peace must come before world peace. The subject, so far as I'm aware, focuses on self-development rather than societal change. If so, how would this be an abherrant finding? However I'm not sure we need it in the intro. Due to some recent edits the "teachings" paragraph of the intro has grown so it'd be good to cut it back down to a proportionate length.   Will Beback  talk  04:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

PS: Aldridge is readable here: You can search on Rawat to find the appropriate passage on p. 59. Aldridge asserts that Rawat once espoused world peace, but then gave up that aspiration and now "focuses on the needs of individuals". I think scholars may disagree on that point, which is perhaps a good reason to leave it out of the intro.   Will Beback  talk  04:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the link. My main point is that the first paragraph assertion that R succeeded his father as leader of the DLM is, in effect, contradicted by the Childhood section of the article and also by the DLM article. The article tells us that control of the organization was shared by his family due to R's youth. In other words, at 8 years old he was too young to exercise control and therefore too young to lead the DLM. In other words, no control - no leadership. I think that common sense would tell the average reader that an 8 year old kid who spends his week days in school cannot lead an organization, especially one of that magnitude.

In contrast, the article does support the notion of him becoming "satguru" to millions of followers. Satguru = true guru]; guru = teacher or guide], so satguru translates as true teacher or true guide. According to the article, his father previously taught him the meditation techniques, so presumably he would have been able to do the same, and he travelled at weekends talking to followers as his father had done.

If Downton and Lewis both state that R succeeded his father as leader, maybe it would be better to include that in the Childhood section where it can be presented in a more realistic context. For example,

According to Downton and Lewis, Rawat succeeded his father as leader of the DLM, but because of his youth, effective control of the DLM was shared by the whole family.

The DLM is adequately covered in the 2nd paragraph of the lede. With a minor edit to paragraph 2, its removal from the first paragraph would not be a problem. As a bonus, the lede would become shorter. What do you think? --Zanthorp (talk) 07:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

RFC: Durga Ji

Ten sources spanning 32 years say that the subject named his wife "Durga Ji", and most also say that he claimed she was the incarnation of a Hindu goddess, Durga. (See #Durga Ji above for excerpts and previous discussion). The sources include highly reliable journalistic sources and well-known, mainstream scholars. The assertion is included in even short biographies of the subject. No reliable sources dispute it. The assertion is already included in Divine Light Mission#Marriage and rift, but it would be even more relevant here. I have proposed adding something like, He renamed his bride 'Durga Ji', and reportedly said that she was an incarnation of Durga, a Hindu goddess. However another editor has said that he would revert any such addition "on sight". To avoid an edit war I'd like to get input on this matter before making an edit. Question: Is there any policy-based reason to exclude this from the article?   Will Beback  talk  01:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by involved editors

I strongly oppose any inclusion based on US mainstream media, in this case Time Magazine, as US mainstream media has proved for decades to be completely controlled and unreliable. I strongly oppose any suggestion for inclusions made by Will Beback, as he has proved for long to be obsessed with mentioning whatever makes Prem Rawat ridiculous and opposing whatever makes him respectable, completely against Misplaced Pages guidelines on biographies of living persons. I strongly support that Will Beback be banned from the Prem Rawat biography, with which he is so clearly obsessed. This is in my opinion more in favour of Misplaced Pages than of Prem Rawat’s biography.--81.32.153.77 (talk) Pedrero 03:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

i strongly support Will with the inclusion of Durga Ji in the article. It is a shame that the supporters are so much lying about the past. It is them that should be banned from the article. Misplaced Pages is not the place to create a reputation for Rawat which he doesn't have Surdas (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no problem including Durga Ji either. I see a problem hawking an obviously contentious bit of information from an ephemeral mainstream magazine article, which is not obliged to the constraints of a Wiki-BLP. The disputed incarnation bit does not gain in seriousness by being repeated by some more or less scholarly authors (hardly monographic papers). It’s not like independent scientists arrive at the same conclusion in independent experiments, which would naturally strengthen the point. It rather appears to be the uncritical perpetuation of one dubious newspaper catchphrase, and with the time it seems to rather lose than gain credibility, especially as it does not at all fit into the broader context. I don’t mean to judge Time magazine, they need a certain amount of, let’s say, creative space in order to make people read what they write every day, and everybody knows that. But to include it uncommented in an encyclopaedic biography of a living person gives it a dignity it does not deserve. I guess, that’s what the BLP rules are for. Generally I have the impression the article has partly developed systematically into a desultory accumulation of titillating mass media trivia under Will Beback’s dominance. I do not assume bad intent, but likely an excessive demand of deeper understanding that is actually required for handling this article. I appreciate his diligence, but he should not be allowed to push his opinion against other editors the way we are witnessing currently, especially when there appears to be a bias toward outrageous tidbits (like ten-armed, tiger-riding goddesses) he seems to share with some of his sources. Misplaced Pages itself will serve as a source for many, so we have a special responsibility.--Rainer P. (talk) 07:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to respond to several errors posted above. First, the "incarnation bit" isn't disputed by any scholar or reliable source. Second, this isn't sourced solely to TIME magazine, a highly reliable source in its own right. It's only conjecture that other writers are merely copying what TIME reported. Third, Melton has his critics but they are mostly from the anti-cult side who feel he's been too cozy with his subjects. I'm not sure why he'd be grouped here as a "more or less scholarly author". He is undoubtedly a scholarly author, as are several others among the sources. If Melton is not a reliable source then we need to re-write much of the article. Fourth, no one has proposed an alternative to the text I've suggested, so the rejection has appeared absolute. I hadn't gotten the impression that there'd be "no problem" with including any part of this text. I urge editors to work towards consensus and suggest a compromise that they'd accept which properly summarizes reliable sources. Fifth, it's patently false to assert that I have exerted "dominance" over this article. Jossi made 1115 edits, Momento made 1068, Rumiton made 674, and I've only made 265. Combined, those three editors plus some other accounts have made just under half of the edits to the article, while I've made less than 1/20th. That's not domination. Finally, nobody has suggested adding "ten-armed, tiger-riding" to the article. Setting up strawmen to knock down doesn't further the discussion. The proposed text is soberly written, reliably sourced, and uses the neutral point of view. Let's discuss that rather than fanciful or imagined proposals.   Will Beback  talk  08:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Will, sorry about the 10armed goddess, I was just going to delete that sentence, when you had already reacted. My apology. Then: Maybe Melton is one of the more scholarly authors (Randi one of the less). Where do you think the incarnation bit originally came from, if not from the TIME article? Lets not be naive. And Jossi certainly dominated the article in his time, as you do now. Only he seemed to react to other editors points more attentively, from my experience. And for text: How about something like: In 1974 sixteen years old Prem Rawat married 25 years old Marolyn Johnson, one of his early American students, who temporarily carried the name Durga Ji afterwards, according to Hinduistic tradition. (Please feel free to improve, it is not my first language).--Rainer P. (talk) 09:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

At the Teachings of PR discussion page, Nik used the term, "a platform for discussion." These discussion pages are our platform for discussion. New content added in haste does not provide a stable discussion base, as we have seen recently at the teachings article. Will seems far too eager lately to charge ahead adding new content without sufficient discussion and reasonable consensus. I don't think that kind of approach is constructive. Rainer P believes that a statement incorrectly attributed to Rawat appeared originally in Time and was then picked up and reported as fact in other publications. This should not be lightly dismissed. --Zanthorp 15:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanthorp (talk • contribs)

If it's just a belief of Rainer P.'s then it should be dismissed. On Misplaced Pages we deal with verifiable facts, not beliefs about what might be true. Rainer has offered no evidence that the reports are incorrect, or that they are all copied from one source. We could use the same logic to impeach any assertion in Misplaced Pages. On the one hand we have ten reliable sources. On the other hand we have Rainer's unsubstantiated belief that they are all wrong. Are there really editors who think we should give both sides equal weight in this discussion?   Will Beback  talk  19:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917390,00.html Read this! It does not even try to be serious, but is highly concentrated ridicule and sneer. There is no other independent source for this, no matter how many authors mention the issue. Show me one! But if it’s mentioned in WP, it gaines credibility, and that can’t be the idea. So the thing is at least contentious, and it does not make the article any better, should be omitted.--Rainer P. (talk) 13:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Melton and Lewis are reliable sources, in and of themselves. We have no evidence that TIME was their source.   Will Beback  talk  01:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It requires a lot of gullibility to assume that Melton et al. had a secret source other than TIME. Most of the involved editors here are better informed. In my book this does not make TIME more reliable, instead it renders Melton more unreliable.--Rainer P. (talk) 08:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

If I'm counting correctly, we now have responses from two uninvolved editors, one semi-involved editor, and two involved editor to the effect that we should include the material. Do you accept that input?   Will Beback  talk  08:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a need for hurry.--Rainer P. (talk) 08:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC) And I don't see that Steve Crossin really supports your proposition, does he?--Rainer P. (talk) 08:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

We've been discussing this for several days, so there's no need to hurry but there's also no need to drag this out. What other views are you expecting to get? Crossin appears to say that if there are reliable sources for the assertion, and no reliable sources that dispute the assertion, then it should be included. Do you accept that input or do you still think that TIME, Melton, Lewis, et al., are all unreliable sources?   Will Beback  talk  09:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I would be more impressed by Zanthorp's quoting me if he had actually started discussing changes before he made them. Wanting those who are not happy with his changes to only discuss them after the fact seems somewhat lacking in a commitment to Good Faith. But perhaps I have misunderstood.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The factual material surely belongs, though perhaps the wording might be bent a tad? "M J called his wife G J, and reportedly referred to her as an incarnation of the Hindu goddess G."? Might that avail? I do not see this as being something which ought to be a major issue. Collect (talk) 13:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Collect; he nailed it. Pergamino (talk) 14:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Collect's version is pretty much the same as what I was proposing. I'd endorse it too.   Will Beback  talk  01:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

“Reportedly” is the weasel word here. It suggests that there is more than only one original more or less reliable source, when there most likely isn’t. The item is therefore on weak grounds, and as it is contentious (obviously), regarding to content (and not only an irrelevant casual detail) of a BLP, concerning two living people, should be omitted. I’m pretty sure Melton wouldn’t object, insisting on his “reliability in and of himself”, as Will put it. Let's share some sanity!--Rainer P. (talk) 08:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

You say this is obviously contentious, but I don't see any reliable sources that dispute the assertion. According to whom is this contentious? We have ten reliable sources on the one hand and no sources on the other hand. I just don't understand on what basis we should omit this material which is included in even short biographies. Should we delete assertions that have even fewer sources?   Will Beback  talk  09:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It is contentious because it is contended here. I have produced some arguments, which I (still!) feel have not really been addressed adequately, and I find it hard to accept that I find so little support for these. I do not feel the matter is insignificant, for reasons explained above. I just don't want to keep on repeating myself. If we can't find an agreement, how do you think about placing a footnote on the item, leading to the TIME-article, so the reader can determine themselves what is meant by "reportedly"? After all, gossip does not turn into science when it is multiplied, or does it?--Rainer P. (talk) 10:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to placing a footnote with the context of the sources. So here's the proposal on the table: "M J called his wife G J, and reportedly referred to her as an incarnation of the Hindu goddess G." . How does that sound?   Will Beback  talk  11:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I still don't like it, but for the time being it can be seen as making the best of a bad job.-Rainer P. (talk) 11:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Could you please make sure that the footnote leads to the entire TIME-article, not just an isolated quote, so that the character of the source becomes identifiable.Rainer P. (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Sure. We can provide the link the the citation so readers can view it for themselves.   Will Beback  talk  18:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that "reportedly" is weasel wording. As unsatisfactory as it is I think its the best compromise we are likely to reach for the time being, and one that is likely to draw least attention to a disputed statement. Unless someone can come up with something better, I suggest that we go with Collect's suggestion for now and put this on the agenda for future discussion. I think Rainer P has hit on a policy issue that is germane to many BLVPs, not just this one, and it is one that we really do need to address. Unfortunately, verifiability takes precedence over veracity and accuracy. I think there is a way around this. I'll get back to it very soon. I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment. Zanthorp 10:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanthorp (talk • contribs)

Do you agree to Collect's suggestion with Rainer's footnote?: "M J called his wife G J, and reportedly referred to her as an incarnation of the Hindu goddess G." .   Will Beback  talk  18:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I like Collect's wording. It's excellent. JN466 22:50, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's go with Collect's wording. There's general consensus for that. I do not agree that we should use the TIME article as a source. There are many reasons to avoid sub-standard tabloid-style journalism. That article must have been a defining low point for TIME, and it shows that very poor quality journalism can find its way into publications that are usually considered fairly reliable. The good news is that tabloid-style journalism is easily identifiable by its use of hyperbole, often insinuating some kind of scandalous wrong-doing that turns out to be completely baseless as is the case with this Time article.

I posit that sub-standard, tabloid-style articles identified by excessive use of hyperbole, and gross distortion of facts, should be excluded as sources for BLVPs no matter where they are published. In addition, where material from such articles is reproduced in other articles, that material should also be excluded from BLVPs. I would like to see this adopted generally as part of BLVP policy. --Zanthorp (talk) 02:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and add the text. I'll use multiple sources. Rainer insists that we link to the TIME article, while Zanthorp finds it unacceptable. By providing multiple sources the readers can decide for themselves how reliable this fact is. If there are further questions about the reliability of TIME we can refer them to the reliable sources noticeboard.

Thanks to everyone for being reasonable and reaching consensus on this matter.   Will Beback  talk  03:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved editors

• I don't see an issue here. Well, I do, but the issue is not on article content, it's user conduct. That said, if there are adequate reliable sources, and no reliable sources that disagree with the sources that say that X is true, happened, etc, and that the content is relevant and useful to the article, it should be added. If there are sources that state that X happened/is true and sources that argue that X didn't happen/is not true, they should be compared and weighed, and failing that, add something like "Joe Bloggs from the New York Times said blah blah, but Jane Doe from the Herald Sun said blah blah" should probably be added. And, of course, if the content is not relevant or useful to the article, it probably should be omitted. (And I don't see the fact I mediated this case previously as me being involved.) Steve Crossin /_{Help us mediate!} 08:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• This deserves inclusion because it is referenced and no cited sources address this issue and dispute it. I would ask Pedrero or any other critic to suggest some way to integrate this thoroughly referenced fact into some small part of the article. Undoubtedly Prem Rawat is a controversial figure and there are sources - not to say they are correct or incorrect, but merely extant - that corroborate what Will Beback is saying. It is irrelevant whether this is true. Including this would be a minor addition and if no critic will integrate this into the article, then I see no reason why Will Beback should not do it as he sees fit. Bluerasberry (talk) 20:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support Will's argument to include the detail in the article. Cla68 (talk) 06:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

NEWS about TPRF

“TPRF has just been awarded a 4-star rating from Charity Navigator, America’s largest independent evaluator of charities. According to their letter, “Receiving four out of a possible four stars indicates that your organization excels, as compared to other charities in America, in allocating and growing your finances in the most fiscally responsible way possible.”

Of course there will be strong opposition, by we know who, to including the above, branding it as propaganda. Why they do this is something they do not even know themselves. But I do. For a part of Misplaced Pages editors, whatever is positive about Prem Rawat is “propaganda” and whatever is negative “important facts to be included”. And Misplaced Pages has allowed this for years and still seems to find it fair. Fantastic. Pedrero, my signature does not work with my new Spanish Email. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.14.1.4 (talk) 10:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

That's great for the TPRF. But so far as I'm aware, the subject has nothing to do with managing it. If he has some control over its conduct then we should add that to the article. But since it appears that it is simply named for him and promotes his message without his involvement, I don't see how its fiscal management is really relevant here.   Will Beback  talk  16:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Will's right, that info belongs in the TPRF article. And stop disparaging other editors IP. Cla68 (talk) 06:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Too bad only the TPRF-article had been dumped along the way...--Rainer P. (talk) 07:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Beback said that "If he has some control over its conduct then we should add that to the article." On page 273 of "Peace Is Possible" by Cagen, Linda Pascotto is quoted as saying "All I did was start it up and M made it clear there would be no activity without his consent." This clearly demonstrates that Prem Rawat is in charge of TPRF and the 4-star rating should be included in the article. Here's the link to show the rating--> http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.c ... rgid=11810 Gadadhara (talk) 08:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

That book is not a reliable source, and even if it were that statement is too vague for use to really say that he has control over it. The consent may have been a one-time approval rather than day-to-day oversight. Thanks for finding that though. There are a lot of reliable sources listed in the current "references" section.   Will Beback  talk  10:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I almost missed this, stuck up here as it is. I do not agree that the statement is too vague. Its quite clear: no consent from Rawat, no activity, and that is consistent with sources that show Rawat began to exercises control over organizational activity from the age of 15. Also, Cagan names her source, Pascotto, so the quote or paraphrase can be attributed to Pascotto. Early this year I read the Steve Crossins discussion pages, links provided by Will. There was no consensus. The earlier discussion did reach the consensus that Cagan was acceptable for dates and facts. I see no problem at all including this in the article. --Zanthorp (talk) 02:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It's possible we might devote a short paragraph to the TPRF, in the context of other changes to the article, in which case its ratings and finances would be relevant. But separately, there's no consensus that Cagan's book is a reliable source. We discussed this extensively last year, and I'm not interested in rehashing it again unless there's some new point.   Will Beback  talk  04:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Zanthorp's claim that "sources that show Rawat began to exercises control over organizational activity from the age of 15" seems like extreme WP:SYN. In any case including minor details about an organisation in a BLP, when a separate article exists for the organisation, is non encyclopaedic, unless the argument is that TPRF should not have a speparate article; in general information should not be repeated across articles. A useful comparison to judge the worth of commentary on TPRF in the Rawat article is the Bill Gates article in which a section is devoted to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation - there the fact that it is Bill Gates' money and that Bill Gates devotes his time and effort to that Foundation is explicit , which in turn justifies the inclusion of information about the organisation in the bio article. Unless there is some evidence the Prem Rawat actually does something in terms of running TPRF, rather than merely being a 'name' there is no reason to include any organisational detail in his bio. All efforts have been gone through regarding Cagan as source including RfC - no consensus has ever been achieved that allows Cagan to be used for other than non contested references (birth dates etc), simply rehashing the argument that greater use of Cagan should be made, is bordering on Tendentious Editing. As to the Steve Crossin mediation - the only reason that there was not a far more broadly achieved consensus (progress was made in a number of areas) is that three editors, two now topic banned for a year and one permanently blocked for their behaviour in editing this very article, were engage in a POV war. The recent ArbCom decission identified that the Rawat articles are in need of improvement, this talk page might therefore be expected to be concerned with proposals for new text strictly focussed on the subject and related to established sources, and not on the introduction of extraneous material or the justification of positions held by banned and blocked editors.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 08:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Article hides controversy, is not presented in a neutral way

This article has severe POV issues. Reading the article, it is not immediately obvious in any one place that it is POV. However, when you read over the whole article, you see several very real issues:

1. The criticisms often leveled at him are buried in paragraphs and in sections. While I'm all for integrating criticism into the main body of an article, in this case the effect is not to provide a balanced POV but rather to hide the bad things. The sections also consistently end on a positive note, which is very, very forced and obvious once you've read over the entire article.
2. There is insufficient criticism of someone who has been termed a cult leader and has been accused - repeatedly - of essentially robbing his followers so he can live an opulent lifestyle.
3. The overall tone of the article is sympathetic to this man. It shouldn't be.
4. The emphasis on the positive is excessive, and numerous statements are glowingly positive.

This article needs some help. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Start listing your suggested changes here so that we can discuss them. Cla68 (talk) 06:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Examples of issues

Leaving India section

His arrival in the United States was met with some ridicule, as the teenaged Rawat was seen as immature and hence unfit to be a religious leader. But he also created an extraordinary amount of interest amongst young adults who were willing to examine his claimed ability to give a direct experience of God. His first western address was given in June 1971 at the first Glastonbury Fayre, and in September he spoke to a large US gathering in Colorado. A US based Divine Light Mission (DLM) was established in Denver, Colorado by Bob Mishler. Many were attracted by the sense of joy, peace and commitment shown by Rawat's followers. One witness said that Rawat "played the whole time he was there...he played with squirt guns, flashed pictures of himself for all to see, and took movies of everybody...Love flowed back and forth between him and his devotees". Enthusiastic new members spread the message that the 13-year-old Rawat could reveal God.

This whole paragraph is a great example of the POV prevalent in this article, as well as several of the issues. The negativity is buried in the second paragraph, is only a sentence long, and is rebutted immediately by fawning praise. "But he also created an extraordinary amount of itnerest amongst young adults who were willing to examine his claimed ability to give a direct experience of God.", beyond being a poorly written sentence, is blatently POV in his favor. Likewise "Many were attracted by the sense of joy, peace, and commitment shown by Rawat's followers."

America 1973

A reporter who attended an event in Boston in August 1973 which drew 9,000 attendees wrote that Rawat appeared humble and human, and seemed to intentionally undercut the claims of divinity made by followers. Sociologist James Downton said that from his beginnings Rawat appealed to his followers to give up concepts and beliefs that might impede them from fully experiencing the Knowledge (or life force), but this did not prevent them from adopting a fairly rigid set of ideas about his divinity, and to project millennial preconceptions onto him and the movement. Followers stressed "love, peace and happiness" in their lives, but public attitudes were often unsympathetic. Sociologist Stephen A. Kent wrote that as a 22-year-old hippie, he found Rawat's message to be banal and poorly delivered, though his companions spoke about it glowingly.

Another example of the same issue of burying criticism, it also presents uncritically the statement of the reporter, which is in utter contrast to ex-members of the group, who claim the opposite - that he was regarded as divine by his followers, and accepted many lavish gifts from them; indeed, he has been criticized as being the opposite of humble and human, repeatedly, elsewhere in the article. The reporter's comment is very tacked on at the beginning, doesn't make much sense in the context of the paragraph, and is clearly a rebuttal/burying of the topic of the paragraph. How public attitudes were unsympatheic is not addressed, and it should be, if we want to integrate it into this section.

Coming of Age

This section has criticism of Rawat's lifestyle buried in the center of it, another example of burying criticism. Likewise, the paragraph itself speaks about his lavish lifestyle, but gives no examples, nor does it go into any amount of detail about his lavish lifestyle, leaving the critical paragraph lacking substance. It also, likewise, has the same rebuttal format as the criticism elsewhere, though it is much less pronounced. However, this paragraph is very out of place, as it is stuck smack dab in the middle of a section about his break with his mother, and has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to that topic. It should be split off into its own section and, given that it is a major criticism of him, I'd say it should be removed from this chronological section entirely and given its own section.

1976-1980 and Westernization

Downton is used a great deal to say what his followers thought, but his conclusions are, again, directly contradicted by members of the group who left in later years, who claimed that they saw him as divine into the 1990s at least. This is, again, uncritical, and in particular:

By 1976, most students viewed Rawat primarily as a spiritual teacher, guide and inspiration.

Is in fact a rebuttal to this very critism, which is unspoken. While publically he renounced his image, his ex-followers have claimed this was merely a public charade and he has been accussed of using this to simply drop off the media's radar so he no longer was as obviously a cult leader.

While the little tidbit about his flying is possibly noteworthy, it probably belongs elsewhere in the article, as its placement at this point appears totally random.

Media

The first sentence really is an introduction to a paragraph, but is left hanging out on its own unnecessarily.

In an interview in Der Spiegel in 1973, Rawat said, "I have lost confidence in newspapers. I talk with them and the next day something completely different is printed."

Again, this is a rebuttal to criticism which doesn't appear in the article. What the newspapers said should be stated.

This paragraph concludes with:

Rawat has often been termed a cult leader in popular press reports, as well as anti-cult writings.

Which really deserves its own section, rather than a throwaway sentence.

Charisma and Leadership

This is a positive heading for a section which is, in fact, largely negative. Again, it obscures criticism, because while critical, it isn't obvious that it is a criticism section, even though that is what it actually is. It also buries the criticism between the first and last paragraphs, the first which is not negative, the second which is positive.

Additionally, the paragraph beginning with David G. Bromley speaks of his failings in his marriage, but what those might be go completely unstated, depriving the criticism of its substance.

Following

The section on former followers is a single paragraph long, two sentences long, and is written from a POV sympathetic to the Elan Vital movement.

Also, Stephen Hunt's claims that Western followers do not see themselves as members of a religion is, again, contradicted by statements made by previous members of the group.

• Apparently at one point, Criticism of Prem Rawat was split from this page. I found the deletion discussion, which had a merge consensus, and some of the people commenting on the issue noted that this splitting had effectively been a POV fork which made this page unencylopedic and left the criticism page such as well. I suspect what ended up happening was that the criticism was cut out, then not worked back into the article very well. Perhaps we should reexamine that page and try to pull in stuff from it which is neglected in this article. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• • Looking at the criticism page, its not very well written, and I'm not sure how much is salvageable; while the stuff about financial exploitation of followers is... okay, its not very detailed. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• These are all valid comments from Titanium Dragon however resolving the problems requires (IMO)a structural approach, not an ad hoc attempt to put right long standing problems, carried out on a piecemeal basis. I've been making the point for over two years that both the section structure and existing section headings are profoundly unencyclopaedic and in some case seriously POV. My suggestion is that any substantial re-write begins with some agreement on structure; the following section heads are my preference:

  • • 1 CHILDHOOD
    • 2 ADOLESCENCE
    • 3 SCHISM
    • 4 INTERREGNUM
    • 5 CHARISMATIC LEADERSHIP
    • 6 FROM GURU TO INSPIRATIONAL SPEAKER
    • 7 PHILOSOPHY and BELIEFS
    • 8 THE KNOWLEDGE MEDITATION
    • 9 COMMUNICATING THE TECHNIQUES OF MEDITATION
    • 10 PERSONAL
    • 11 FOOTNOTES

  These heads are accompanied by a draft text at however I'm not suggesting that text as the starting point. There was valuable material produced in the 2008 mediation, the drafts concerning Charismatic leadership were particularly valuable --Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that we should base editorial debates on "preferences". The page, from what I can gather, is well-written and profusely referenced. It's neither an hagiography of the guru, nor a hatchet job, which is what a neutral article should be. Basically, supporters of the guru will never be happy with the page, neither will his critics, and that is just perfectly fine. The only thing I see missing is some stuff about the CIA conspiracy theories in both India and the US in the 70s, and an exposition of the move from world-peace aspirations to personal peace. Pergamino (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a detailed list of problems that we can work to address. While Nik is probably right that a larger re-organization may be beneficial, this topic is such that grand corrections are hard to digest while more modest improvements are more achievable.   Will Beback  talk  03:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

There are two separate discussions here: the specific POV issues raised by Titanium Dragon, and the organizational issues raised by Nik Wright2. I suggest that we keep them separate, maybe even split this thread. Regarding the organization, this article has two halves. The second part is topical, covering interests, teachings, and reception. This proposal doesn't concern them.

The first part is a chronological account of notable events and actions.

I've worked on hundreds of biographies on Misplaced Pages. It's my experience that overly descriptive section headings can cause their own problems. For the first part, I suggest switching to headings which list years or decades. For examples, "1960s", "1970-'75", "Twenty-first century" or "2000s". The advatange of this scheme is that it is very neutral. The heading is neutral plus the contents are not prejudged. A section heading like "Westernization" implies that it only concerns issues of Westernization, while in fact that section deals with all aspects of the subject's life during a time period. The headings should better reflect the contents. So I suggest:

• Childhood = 1960s
• Leaving India=1970-1972
• America 1973=1973
• Millennium '73=1973
• Coming of age=1974-1980
• 1976–1980=1974-1980
• Westernization = 1980-2000
• Twenty-first century = 2000s

Does anyone think that's less neutral then the current scheme? The subject's life has been complex - let's keep our description simple where we can.   Will Beback  talk  09:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I accept the rationale of a purely chronological ‘bio’ sequence, with the non event based material following in separate sections. I have two concerns though – firstly the use of editorialised sections heads – Coming of Age and Westernisation. These are far less precise than the date heads or the notable event head of Millenium (although I would prefer to simply include Millenium within the 73-75 date range), and this leads to my second concern. At present there is a poor distinction between the life of the individual ‘biography’ and an explanation of the dynamics of the organisations with which he is associated; of course the two things are intimately related, but when we use a phrase like Coming of Age and then link that to organisational outcomes there is a real danger of a false synthesis of sources. Likewise with Westernisation, certainly there is one academic source which identifies Rawat’s ‘teaching’ as becoming westernised but that is not the same thing as the bio subject (Prem Rawat) becoming westernised. Of course as a person Rawat did change culturally, ( though Americanised would be a more precise term) , but I don’t think we have sources that talk about him personally becoming Westernised – certainly not in a sense that might be understood from Westernised . Particular thought needs to be given to how the family schism is to be dealt with – is it just an event in the chronological treatment, plus an artefact to be recorded in the Beliefs section, or are the philosophical and belief aspects of the schism to be treated as part of the personal chronology (which is what the current Coming of Age section does, albeit rather badly).

One smaller point - the operative date range should be 75 (or 76) to 1983, not 1980 – 82/83 is when the ashrams closed and the period when renaming of the DLM’s as Elan Vital commenced. The 1980 date comes from Björkqvist, unfortunately there seems no other academic who has given a precise date for the ashram closures, however Björkqvist may be considered suspect on this point because he can be shown to be wrong in his associated statement that the “DLM was disbanded”, based on good primary source evidence In the absence of any other definitive source, the primary source of the Elan Vital Foundation , can be used to fix the 1983 date as the point of its creation – the organisational name Elan Vital representing the new phase in Rawat’s life. This reliance on primary sources may not be desirable but they do provide consistency. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 11:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon's apparent POV is the problem, not the neutrality of the article.

There are more than 30 paragraphs in the article. Mostly they report facts in a neutral tone and are well referenced. TD perceives 2 or 3 of those as problematic in terms of POV. Even if a POV problem can be identified, the overall tone of the article is not governed by those few paragraphs. The article overall is neutral, balanced and well referenced. I agree with Pergamino about this.

There is no problem at all with presenting and comparing contrasting reports in the same paragraph. Criticism or "Negativity" is not "buried", it is quite prominent. Its there for anyone to read. If some of the article is positive it is because the sources are positive. If other content is negative, that's because the sources are negative. We report the sources. We do not remove their meaning or restructure the article to suit Titanium Dragon's POV.

There is no "fawning praise" in this. "But he also created an extraordinary amount of itnerest amongst young adults who were willing to examine his claimed ability to give a direct experience of God." The sentence reports a fact according to the source.

The biggest problem here seems to be Titanium Dragon's perception, apparently colored by whatever he or she has been reading. I see no reason to write an unsympathetic biography based on unreliable, unspecified, tabloid(?) material that someone happens to have read and taken seriously. "...essentially robbing his followers so he can live an opulent lifestyle." According to every source I've seen, Rawat teaches his meditation free of charge, and as far as I am aware he does not solicit money during his talks. If Rawat acted like a tele-evangelist soliciting donations in exchange for a ticket to heaven, then Titanium Dragon would have a case. As it is, TD has no case.

Rewriting the article according to TD's POV will not produce a good, stable article. It will produce the opposite. --Zanthorp (talk) 00:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

It is inappropriate to discus the POV of other editors, unless you're willing to have your own POV placed on the table for discussion too. It'd be better if we just focus on the content and avoid discussing each other.

The first problem that TD notes is this pair of sentences:

• His arrival in the United States was met with some ridicule, as the teenaged Rawat was seen as immature and hence unfit to be a religious leader. But he also created an extraordinary amount of interest amongst young adults who were willing to examine his claimed ability to give a direct experience of God.

There are several problems. One is weight. More space is devoted to the positive aspects than the negative aspects, even though the first sentence has two sources instead of one. In fact, there are dozens of sources that discuss at length the problems that the subject had with public perceptions. There are relatively few that mention the delight that he brought to followers. So giving them equal weight doesn't fairly represent the range of views. Second, the word "but" implies that one offsets the other, or that there is a contradiction. That's what gives the impressoin that the critical material is being compensated by positive material.

I don't think we can sweepingly say that the article is perfect and needs no further improvements. Not when specific problems have been pointed out. Let's take them one at a time and seek improvements.   Will Beback  talk  01:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see "problems" being pointed out; what I see is strong bias from both sides. Pergamino (talk) 03:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

What bias are you talking about? Please explain.   Will Beback  talk  04:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

In reply to Will, I don't mind having my POV discussed. My POV is that the article should be fair, neutral and conform with policy, not doctored to render it less sympathetic because someone apparently doesn't like the subject, or more sympathetic because someone loves the subject. And if possible lets make it accurate, succinct and well written. The article does need work. Its far from perfect and I think there are more important issues than whether or not a sentence should begin with but. BTW, but in this case does not offset anything, nor does it imply contradiction. It is simply used to contrast two different situations that occurred at the same time, so there's no problem with it.

The section titles Nik proposed read like a fixed agenda within which there is little scope to write anything like an accurate biography. SCHISM and INTERREGNUM might be technically accurate. Unfortunately they sound like the titles of B-grade thrillers, and anyway, I don't think those events were of such Earth shattering importance that they require a separate section. Your preference for chronological section titles is far more sensible.--Zanthorp (talk) 04:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Your POV appears to be "pro-Rawat". Since you welcome the discussion of your POV, could you please describe your history with the subject? Are you a student or how did you come to edit this topic, which accounts for two-thirds of your contributions to Misplaced Pages?   Will Beback  talk  04:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I am not a student. You will find the rest of the information you have asked for in this discussion with Msalt] and there's more on my talk page. I read the Cagan biography and went to youtube. The interviews with Mr Rawat are especially interesting and his talks are very insightful, IMO. My first ever discussion of any substance on Misplaced Pages was with you], in my opinion less than welcoming and not particularly helpful. Perhaps you hadn't noticed. My disagreements with you mostly involve civil liberties issues. So Will, what's your history with this subject and how did you come to edit this topic?--Zanthorp (talk) 00:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Saying that the subject's comments are "very insightful" an example of expressing a positive opinion. Seeking to remove negative material about the subject is another example. It's OK to have a POV on a topic, but pointing to the POVs of others while claiming not to have any is likely to be challenged and lead to discussion like this one. I suggest that we all stick to discussing the topic and leave out our speculations on each others' motivations or biases. (In answer to Zanthorp's question, I'd never really heard of the subject before reading about it here. I got involved in editing the article because it was dominated by a trio of editor. Though they are now prohibited from editing the topic, their legacy remains and requires furhter editing to correct.)

I'll start a new thread on the issues raised by user:Titanium Dragon, since this own has gotten tangled up with other concerns.   Will Beback  talk  00:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, Zanthorp, Will's proposed section headings are very neutral. Cla68 (talk) 06:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, a very sensible idea for section headings. --Zanthorp (talk) 00:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom remedies

Pergamino (talk · contribs) was blocked today after having been found to be a sock account of Jossi (talk · contribs). I'd like to take the opportunity to remind everyone engaged in this topic that there are several ArbCom-imposed restrictions. The primary one is the year old probation which requires us all avoid "disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, personal attacks and incivilty." All editors are restricted from reverting more than once a week, and two editors are prohibited from any editing of the topic until April 2010. There have already been enough blocks and bans. Let's all keep our cool, obey the regular and special rules, and stick to improving the article.   Will Beback  talk  04:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Recent changes

These are not random speeches, but are (few of many) useful examples for Rawat’s current engagement toward peace. We just recently had a discussion here about the Alridge quote, where Rawat’s focus on peace was debated. So the text should not be deleted without previously seeking consensus. I will revert.--Rainer P. (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

While Titanium Dragon should have discussed the change, writing that "but are (few of many) useful examples for Rawat’s current engagement toward peace" appears POV pushing. What does "engagment toward peace" mean ? The subject of the bio gave a speech - so what ? The text doesn't say that these are examples of such events, nor does it appear there was anything exceptional about these secific speeches. The subject of the bio habitually gives speeches, how is it that these are selected for mention as being distinct from any other ? Apart from the fact that speeches were delivered the reader is not informed of anything - WP isn't a listings publication.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 13:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This article has an outstandingly adventurous history and has been shot to shambles and pieced up again perhaps a few times too many, so it looks a little like a car after the Paris-Dakar Rallye, it does not impress by elegance, but seems to have a sturdy frame. Some parts do appear abrupt, or out of context, like the ones Nik relates to. They should be embedded into the context flow more elegantly, I agree. They should not be simply deleted. A complete rewrite would be fine, but who can claim enough integrity to do it in one pour! Nik’s proposal sounds good to me, but probably a very similar situation would evolve as it is now, so we might as well try to smoothen the article as it is, there is already so much work in it, like in a samurai-blade, that is crimped and forged repeatedly. Suggestion: let’s mention some exemplary events related to peace, where Rawat spoke, like this Italian event, or Florianopolis and the like, explicitely pointing out Rawat’s peace-related activities, remove it from “21st century” and place it into the “teachings”-section, in order to address this world-peace vs. personal peace issue. I am reluctant though to do it myself, as English is a foreign language to me. Opinions? Propositions?--Rainer P. (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The Paris-Dakar rally car analogy is appropriate :) Basically I agree with you, but I think Nik's proposal is problematic because the structure he proposes would produce a very disjointed biography. If you don't have enough confidence in your English ability, please post you material here. I volunteer to work on it with you. --Zanthorp (talk) 03:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "disjointed"? Can you give a more specific critique?   Will Beback  talk  03:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Please see reply above. --Zanthorp (talk) 04:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) After accepting that changes should be discussed first, - Zanthorp has once again made changes to the article without discussion and without giving any references to support the new material, in so doing has compounded an existing error that was previously limited to the lede. As has been discussed previously, California Law does not have any specific provision to grant adult status to a minor, any source that claims Rawat was granted such a status must therefore be in error. What would have been possible under California statute is that a Judge could have granted Rawat the right to marry despite his then minor status; and in consequence, by virtue of being married Rawat, would have incidentally gained adult status. Unless a legally competant source can be identified for the claim of emancipated minor status, all refrence to it should be removed from the artcile and the simple of fact of the marriage (which is supported by sources) left unadulterated. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 15:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Organization

To separate out some mingled threads, I'm creating this thread to discuss the headings and other organizational issues. Nik Wright2 has proposed some changes to the headings. I proposed that we label the chronological sections with simple decade or year ranges. Any further discusson?   Will Beback  talk  00:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Entirely agree. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 15:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Gadadhara, Introducing myself

Hello, all. I thought I’d introduce myself because I’d like to help out with improvements to the Prem Rawat article. I am a student of Mr. Rawat, having received his gift of Knowledge on May 2, 1982 in a Santa Monica ashram. Many people have received Knowledge over the years that I’ve been practicing and listening to Maharaji, some have stayed on and continue to attend events with him and some have not. I have benefitted immensely from practicing Knowledge. The four simple techniques take my outgoing senses and help me to invert them to go inside and experience what is there. I continue to listen to him because I enjoy his wisdom, humor and practical viewpoint of life. As a matter of fact, I was fortunate to be able to attend an event with him last Sunday in Thousand Oaks, California, and was once again impressed with some of his unique and pertinent observations. I am not hypnotized or brain washed by Mr. Rawat or his gift of Knowledge and I freely practice the meditation and listen to him because it is enjoyable to do so. I’ve experienced much peace and love over the years by doing so.

Anyway, I have no agenda here other than to make sure that things written about him paint him in a fair and balanced way so I would like the opportunity of discussing some of the issues about him and his Knowledge with some of you who are participating as editors here. I signed up as a Wiki editor awhile back but I’ve been busy with school and other things in my life until recently so I thought it was time to give my 2 cents worth. I look forward to talking with you all in a spirit of getting to the truth about this man and his message.

Cheers, Gadahara69.105.255.105 (talk) 13:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I've shifted the references list to the bottom - new editors please note this is the prefered location for references. Wowest - perhaps you would consider removing your response to Gadahara, it certainly does not seem to fit with the requirement to assume good faith. At this point we have no reason to believe Gadahara is not going to abide by the limitations placed on this article. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 16:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

• user:Gadadhara, welcome. Please remember to log in when editing, so your username will show automatically. As a newcomer to this article you should read the headers at the top of this page - the article is under probation and other special restrictions.   Will Beback  talk  16:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

To Gadadhara, a belated welcome. This is an interesting and very active topic. Participation is a great way to learn about how Misplaced Pages works. --Zanthorp (talk) 01:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Emancipation

There has been extensive discusion in the past about the details of Rawat's marriage and emancipation. First, the emancipation was a result of the marriage, not a precondition. If he'd received parental permission to be married it would have also resulted in emancipation. The decision of the court was to allow him to marry without parental permission. Second, the emancipation is not an important detail and doesn't belong in the lede at all. It had no effect on any aspect of the subject's life that I've seen. He was not in legal control of the DLM before or after, and the properties and vehicles he used weren't in his name. It's not mentioned in reliable sources as being important. Lastly, the idea is that the lede should reflect the text, not the other way around. Therefore, I reverted the undiscussed change to the article concerning emancipation and removed it from the lede.   Will Beback  talk  18:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This seemed to me to be a minor edit and minor correction that did not require discussion. It isn't a major issue, IMO, but its nice to see that the eventual result of my effort has been an improvement to the article. And, I am impressed by your understanding of CA law pertaining to the emancipation of minors. --Zanthorp (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

There are few parts of this article that haven't been researched carefully and discussed at length. The emancipation issue was a big deal to one of the previous editors here. We consulted not just one, but two(!) lawyers. I've learned a lot from editing Misplaced Pages.   Will Beback  talk  01:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely with Will's sentiment here. Just about every detail of Prem Rawat's life has been done to death here. It leaves this article in an interesting position in respect of the Misplaced Pages principle "anyone can edit". It still holds true in theory, but in practice for this particular article, there is very little room for someone to successfully make even minor changes without deep knowledge of a) the subject and b)the history of the previous debates here. If you'll forgive me for going off-topic for a moment, I often wonder the implications of this type of situation will mean for Misplaced Pages in general as it matures and reaches saturation of biographies. Will we be left with fighting RfDs around new entries (see Britain's got talent for an example) on one hand, and more and more stale, detailed debating around older entries? --Savlonn (talk) 19:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"Just about every detail of Prem Rawat's life has been done to death here." Not so Savlonn, there are glaring omissions. Most notably regarding the messianic nature of his claims to being the one and only living "Perfect Master". In the 1970s, this is what brought him to the public eye, and on which his notoriety was founded.

The article's reticence in addressing this is, possibly, a residue from the era when Jossi/Pergamino, Momento and Rumiton (all now blocked) managed somehow to impose their own protective-of-Rawat-POV on a supposedly encyclopedic work of reference. Rawat's afficionados may be embarrassed by that era of Rawat's history, but I hope Misplaced Pages doesn't have to submit to such revisionist tendencies in the long term.

Forgive my somewhat chippy attitude, but I've seen a lot of worthy editors give up the wikighost (as it were) in fighting that war. Let's hope that, in the future, good articles will not be so compromised by POV-pushers with an excess of time on their hands Revera (talk) 08:49, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

For direct quotes from Rawat re messianic claims of Perfect Master, see: http://ex-premie.org/gallery/god_claims.htm Revera (talk) 09:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The context of my comment was not about the current content of the main article, but around what has already being discussed in detail. It was in reply to Will' statement that "There are few parts of this article that haven't been researched carefully and discussed at length." Your particular example was discussed in detail during the mediation last year. User:Steve_Crossin/Mediation/Prem_Rawat--Savlonn (talk) 10:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Could I ask you for a link to that discussion, please? I hope the inference isn't that the absence of detail about the messianic claims of the "Perfect Master" should have been deliberately omitted? Revera (talk) 10:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure, here's one detailed discussion around becoming known as a Satguru or Perfect Master . User_talk:Steve_Crossin/Mediation/Prem_Rawat/Proposal4 I think there are several more, but I don't have the time to go through the mediation archive at the momment. To answer your last query, I am not inferring anything at all about what should or should not be included in the article. I am merely observing that just about any aspect of this biography that can be discussed, has been discussed. --Savlonn (talk) 10:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Inferring? The grammar-hound in me insists that you meant to say "implying" - but that's by the by.

Unfortunately the link you gave: ] doesn't work for me - the page just hangs.

Discussion pages are one thing. That a major aspect of Rawat's history is not currently represented in the article itself - well, that's my concern. Revera (talk) 11:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

That's weird - the link I entered works fine for me. Your link is missing "User_talk:" at the start. I suggest you do go there and a have a read (you'll need to click on "show archive") as it will give you some context of a key reason why this isn't inlcuded; a lack of consensus. You'll see from the number of attempted drafts that the easy bit is that saying that something should be included; the tricky bit is agreeing reliable, high quality sources and gaining consensus on the wording to ensure neutrality. --Savlonn (talk) 11:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

(belated comment) Will is right, Zanthorp. I remember editors took some trouble over Rawat's emancipated status at the time and we were very pleased to finally get it right. --JN466 12:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Info appreciated :) Except for obvious vandalism, minor grammatical corrections ( I read quickly and tend to miss most of those anyway. ) in future I will discuss any proposed edits here. I am concerned that other editors do not always demonstrate the same cautious approach. The result at the teachings of PR page recently was a minor edit war. --Zanthorp (talk) 01:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, most of us have been editing this topic for over a year, and I believe you've said you have no particular knowledge of the topic. So there's a difference in the familiarity with sources and issues. As for the editing disupte at Teachings of Prem Rawat, that dispute started when you deleted sourced material without any prior discussion, if I recall correctly. That dispute involved an editor who was acting in bad faith and is now blocked. Let's hope there won't be anything like that again.   Will Beback  talk  01:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Fastest Growing ?

Editor IP 94.194.214.37 has made a change http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=296712876&oldid=296186757 altering "new religious movement" to "Cult". The reference for this section is Geaves who uses neither NRM or Cult but "group". As we have no other source for "fastest growing" and Geaves quotes no data to support the claim, I suggest removing this element because its quantitative character requires some supporting data - how many per month/year - which month/year - for how many months/years etc.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 08:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

References

1. Ron Geaves in Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421
2. Ron Geaves in Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421
3. Downton (1979), p. 3
4. Lewis (1998a), p. 83
5. Geaves (2006)
6. Melton (1992), p. 217
7. ^ Hunt (2003)
8. Miller (1995), p. 474
9. Melton (1986), pp. 141-145
10. "Guru Maharaj Ji becomes a citizen of the US." Rocky Mountain News, Wednesday, October 19, 1977, Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
11. "The Prem Rawat Foundation website". Retrieved 2008-06-09.
12. ^ Melton (1986), p. 141–2
13. ^ Downton (1979), p. 5 & 7
14. Geaves (2004)
15. Downton (1979), p. 4
16. Price, Maeve (1979): The Divine Light Mission as a social organization. (1) Sociological Review, 27, Page 279-296
17. Derks, Frans, and Jan M. van der Lans. 1983. Subgroups in Divine Light Mission Membership: A Comment on Downton in the book Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West. Macon edited by Eileen Barker, GA: Mercer University Press, (1984), ISBN 0-86554-095-0 pages 303-308
18. Downton (1979), p. 132
19. Downton (1979), p. 4 & 146
20. EastWest Journal "An Expressway over Bliss Mountain" by Phil Levy P 29
21. Downton, James V. (1979). Sacred journeys: the conversion of young Americans to Division Light Mission. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-04198-5.
22. Kent (2001)

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