Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:33, 20 June 2009

This is Jehochman's talk page, where you can send him messages and comments.

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Please leave a new message. I generally prefer to keep conversations on the page where they start. Please follow Strunk & White's advice, "Omit needless words!" Unblocks: If I block a user, any administrator is free to refactor the block unless I have specifically requested contacting me first. I may remove comments posted here if no response is needed, or if I respond elsewhere.

Arb decisions

How long has SA been gone and how long is his scheduled exile? I'm curious about the process and whether sanctions are shortened and under what circumstances. I also miss SA because I can't banter with him and leave sarcastic and derisive comments attacking scientific assumptions and the sometimes fanatic embrace of what passes for scientific truth without people gettign the wrong idea. When he's not here people think I'm mocking him unfairly, but in actuality I'm just giving him a hard time and stirring the pot because and I like to see what kind of soup develops. It's an evolutionary process of sorts... And, of course, I enjoy his collegial comments and insights and consider him a friend. Anyway, if you're in touch with him say hi. I don't use e-mail on Misplaced Pages because my tinfoil hat can't protect me from its ill effects. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd refrain from using sarcasm around explosive situations. SA and I aren't close. You might ask User:Durova instead. Jehochman 07:48, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

David Boothroyd

• David Boothroyd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi there. I think you should revert your speedy deletion decision in this case. Seeing that the new Register article was only published yesterday, the article covered more than the article previously deleted at AFD and thus was not substantially identical, which is a key requirement to apply G4. Regards SoWhy 08:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The page was recreated after you deleted it. Could you do so again and salt it? Or possibly block the editor if he does so again?— Dædαlus 08:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me you're the one going around consensus by preventing a discussion on significant developments and new media coverage. TAway (talk) 08:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

You are an inch from being blocked for WP:BLP and WP:POINT. Don't push your luck. Want to discuss it? Try WP:DRV. Jehochman 08:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh no, a whole inch? I'm not intimidated by your threats in the least, and I haven't violated the BLP policy one bit; every bit of that article was reliably sourced. Your deletion was totally inappropriate given recent developments. TAway (talk) 08:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Public opinion is not kind to those who appear to be engaging in a coverup (even when there is no actual coverup). Once matters leave our little universe, our rules no longer apply and there could be real world implications. ;-) Privatemusings (talk) 08:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yup. He's in for some rough times. However, our website with its search-ranking-fu does not need to be made available to those who wish to amplify his problems. The register article is quite public. I don't see how anything is being covered up. People can read all the salacious details there. Misplaced Pages is not the only site on the Internet. Jehochman 08:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not the only site on the Internet" - heresy! burn the witch! I can't remember who said the wise words I posted above (it is indeed a quote...), but I reckon they'd probably respond with something about not only doing the right thing, but being seen to do the right thing, blocks, protections and general circle forming probably not included :-) - still the most important thing is to keep talking sensibly about this - the only thing which is giving me pause for thought is the elected official thing.... I'm chewing over my views on that one and how it relates to subject requests for article deletion at the mo... this is an interesting one, to be sure :-) Privatemusings (talk) 08:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)and in case it's not bloomin obvious, the smiles etc. are intended to convey that as long as dialog continues somewhere, somehow, then I don't really see either you or TAway as doing anything particularly odd / outrageous... let's talk now.....

There's a discussion at WP:DRV. That's where this can be finally resolved. I kept posting that link, and somebody finally took up my suggestion! Ah, now I can have peace and quiet on my talk page. Jehochman 08:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

hmmmm... well *i* heard that you were showing the champions league final tonight on your big flat screen, and there was gonna be free beer? I've invited thirty odd of my closest friends round too? .... /me steals a comfy spot on the sofa and cracks open a beer...... only 10 odd hours to go :-) Privatemusings (talk) 08:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

TAway has posted his version of the article on his user page — not a great idea. Mathsci (talk) 08:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I blocked them for that as I think they'll just rattle around and post it at all kinds of odd places if they are allowed to continue editing. Jehochman 08:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agreed with the closing of the 2nd nomination and wasn't trying to challenge it or anything with the 3rd one. I just figured that because the 2nd nomination was "out of process," any Deletion review would have inevitably led back to AFD, so I filed a 3rd one in a means to (hopefully) get closure on the issue. --MZMcBride (talk) 12:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:MFD/User:TAway

Just to let you be aware of my opinions.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Congratualtions

Good work on Gamma-ray burst. Hipocrite (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Jehochman 16:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

We're having some civility and AGF issues on this talk page, despite requests and warnings. Could you take a look/offer advice? It's the 911 deniers section specifically. Thanks, Verbal chat 20:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment changing.

Re: Socking at Arbitration

Reply to:

• 198.161.174.194 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Would you consider blocking this account? Their very recent contributions at arbitration seem to indicate further socking after past warnings. Jehochman 19:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this guy still an issue? Sorry, I haven't been around lately. Hersfold 16:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

How much time do you have on your hands? Are you conflicted on Cold Fusion, myself or User:Abd? Hipocrite (talk) 15:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not much interested in that quagmire, and I'm friends with Abd. You could try User:Cryptic C62. Jehochman 16:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion. I think we need an honest broker to make things work. Hipocrite (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't expect you to get involved with Cold fusion, J., it is indeed a quagmire. Hipocrite is carrying on in the traditions of ScienceApologist, only much worse, as near as I can tell. About the beginning of May, he showed up at cold fusion and inflamed disputes there, using bald reverts to exclude RS text. I generally follow a voluntary 1RR restriction, preferring to work out disputes in Talk, but, there, Talk was going nowhere, so on May 21 or so, I did use more reverts than usual. They were still reverts aimed at finding compromise, i.e., only partial reverts, and, in fact, some compromises were worked out (and remained) but I hit, by the extreme interpretation of any reassertion of content, even if modified to seek consensus, I hit 4RR; Hipocrite hit 3RR. (My final edit was reverted just before protection by another editor.) The article was protected for a week. After being off protection for a few days, another edit war started up. I made one edit that Hipocrite vigorously opposed, but no actual reverts. Hipocrite reverted, June 1, GetLinkPrimitiveParams,, me, , and Coppertwig.. But then I think he realized that he'd hit 3RR and he undid the Coppertwig reversion. He had requested page protection, though most of the edit warring was him. And while page protection was pending, he then heavily edited the lead, adding language that he knows, absolutely, as shown by subsequent discussion, would be against consensus. Discussion of this, with links to more detail at RfPP, is at Talk:Cold_fusion#Page_protection

J., I think he's trolling to see how outrageous he can get. He is deliberately taking a highly disruptive path, fomenting dissent among editors who were, though with some difficulty, working together. He's taking an extreme anti-fringe opinion, in clear violation of the RfAr on Fringe science, categorically excluding text based on sources because they are allegedly fringe, even though published under peer review and/or by reputable publishers -- such as World Scientific or the American Chemical Society/Oxford University Press, and when there is no contradiction, such as these sources asserting what explanations have been proposed, which shouldn't be controversial at all. I can document all this, and show how Hipocrite's disruptive behavior came to my attention while ScienceApologist was trolling to be blocked for spelling corrections; I was involved in making it clear what was happening, and Hipocrite was very much participating in that disruption, filing AE after AE (including one on me) that were closed as basically preposterous.

I'm not asking you for use of tools, I wouldn't do that. But I am asking you for advice. I've been thinking of going to Arbitration Enforcement, since there are definitely issues here around enforcement of the Fringe science arbitration. The disruption from Hipocrite is way beyond an ordinary content dispute; there are a number of editors who are absolutely convinced that cold fusion is pure bunk, and they aren't problems, and they will make reasonable compromises, but the gaming of protection was really intolerable. He's now got "pathological science" and "pariah field" and some other zingers locked into the lead, which violates old and clear consensus that Cold fusion isn't pseudoscience, but fringe science (and I claim it's crossed the boundary into emerging science, still highly controversial, and that's why there is all this recent reliable secondary source, and no recent contrary source of comparable quality, just pop media regurgitation of old copy.

To counter my assertion of the recent major review of the field by Storms (2007, World Scientific), simply noting one of the most notable theories as to how cold fusion could occur, not anything that wasn't 100% verifiable, i.e., it was attributed, etc., Hipocrite removed it and added old tertiary or passing-comment material saying that all theories that explain cold fusion are "ad hoc." From 1999 or 2002. In the latest edit warring, I'd added a reference to paper by the developer of that hypothesis (proposed originally around 2002 or 2003, I think), Takahashi, in the Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook, (2008, American Chemical Society/Oxford University Press) and he took it out as if it was nothing. What he took out on this had one primary source (Takahashi himself) and two secondary sources (Storms and a paper published in Naturwissenschaften the beginning of this year by Mosier-Boss that refers to the Takahashi theory. It's well-known in the field, one of maybe three or four top competing theories; Takahashi's theory is really just a sophisticated mathematical analysis of the situation in the palladium environment, at the surface, it doesn't seem to be new physics, like some of the other theories. The point: what he was taking out was better sourced than most material in the article, and it's obvious that the objection isn't lack of reliable source, it is that he disagrees with the content of those sources. These aren't fringe publishers.

How do you think I should proceed, for greatest efficiency and least disruption? --Abd (talk) 18:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

CyberLink

I've restored the article, a a user wanted to work on the article, it is a notable company, and, with respect, I don't see how G11 applied. See User talk:MZMcBride#Deleted article - Cyberlink. –xeno 20:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

You'd have to look at the situation closely to understand why G11 applied. The set of articles were purely promotional. A fundamental rewrite would have been necessary to create an encyclopedia article. (It's still necessary, but I see that there are news appearances sufficient to write a proper article, and editors willing to undertake the task.) Rather than debating whether this or that criteria is satisfied, it would be more productive to improve the article. Jehochman 01:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I see how the sea of redlinks in the article certainly makes it look spammy. If the user doesn't improve it beyond G11, I'll take a look myself. –xeno 06:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

You (and I) have been accused of edit warring

See . I think User:Unomi is a bit confused. :-) Dougweller (talk) 10:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh no! Check my comment. Thank you for the tip. Jehochman 14:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Ohh Jehochman, I thought you'd corrected your errant ways. Wasn't your recent block enough? ;) Franamax (talk) 14:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Boothroyd

Yes, there is no way I would move this into article space without prior approval. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, you've got mail. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Um, are you going to clarify what in particular your concern is with that NPOV tag? JoshuaZ (talk) 20:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I left comments on the talk page. Jehochman 20:08, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Long time listener, first time caller

Long time listener first time caller, actually! You really think the only people interested in Misplaced Pages are former editors, that people curious about Misplaced Pages don't see Misplaced Pages stories and sites like the Misplaced Pages Review and then join the project to address what they see as problems? You will stop baselessly accusing me of being a sockpuppet immediately. Put up and make your case with evidence or drop it. TAway (talk) 05:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the positive comment

Cirt is a damn good article creator.

Jehochman, I just wanted to say thank you very much for this positive comment about me. I really appreciate it. :) Cirt (talk) 03:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Sam Blacketer controversy

If that pops on DRV please let me know on my talk, if I miss it. I consider this request invalidates any claims of canvassing on the matter in the future (and I'm only saying this as certain people who may be resurrected users with former accounts) apparently have gone insane. rootology (C)(T) 13:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

OK

I am just getting a bit annoyed that, what I thought was a good thing to do, has ended up with me feeling like I have been s**t on. It is my opinion that it is easy to be rude here, and then walk away, than it is to defend yourself (which then starts getting classified as trolling/attacks etc). I do appreciate you saying that you saw my point yesterday, it gives me some hope that no everybody on this site is unreservedly arrogant. Frank Bruno's Laugh (talk) 15:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

People are a bit jaded. The site is not a utopia. We have problems with banned users coming back with new accounts. The best suggestion I can give you is to dive into a topic of interest and try to improve an article. If you do that you'll find a lot of satisfaction in that activity. WP:ANI is a cesspool to be avoided. I'd recommend never posting there. If you run into trouble, you can ask me or some other administrator to help you. Thank you for caring. Jehochman 15:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. I would really just rather get back to the Reference Desk, which I enjoy reading and posting on, and maybe some articles as you suggest. Frank Bruno's Laugh (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

That note on the MFD

That was me that put that up there. It's not binding, of course. rootology (C)(T) 13:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

No big deal, but this ruckus has gone on way too long already. We should let it wind down. I am pretty ambivalent about the whole thing (have an article, don't have an article), except that I want to issue to be resolved so people can get back to writing articles. I believe somebody could write a good article, but probably now isn't the time to do it. Once things calm down maybe somebody like Cirt will do it properly. What's there now and what's been there in the past has been unacceptable level of quality. Jehochman 13:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Socking case

Hi. As an original blocking admin here , you might be interested in this case . Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 09:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

All set. Jehochman 12:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. That was quick. M0RD00R (talk) 13:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't want to have a Nazgûl at my door. When the dark lord summons, I attend. Jehochman 13:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

You've been mentioned on WikiEN-l

By David, not me—http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2009-June/101202.html ;-)

(I wasn't not sure if you read the list and so thought a courtesy note might be in order.)

AGK 12:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

See http://twitter.com/Jehochman#/favorites?user=Jehochman Jehochman 12:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

OpenSeven/AdmiralKolchak

Concerning WP:Sockpuppet investigations/OpenSeven: As a non-admin I can't check this, but I seem to remember that in a conflict with OpenSeven, AdmiralKolchak appeared out of nowhere (to my great surprise, I daresay) trying to mediate. Is that correct? --Hans Adler (talk) 15:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Please add your evidence to that case. I agree that AdmiralKolchak (talk · contribs) is a recycled user. A typical new user does not add infoboxes to articles and submit them to That alone is not enough to support a finding of sock puppetry, but perhaps additional evidence can be found via a careful analysis. Jehochman 21:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Update! Hans Adler, you have excellent powers of observation. Checkuser has confirmed that connection. Jehochman 21:29, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Not at all, except for my comment on Talk:Sam Blacketer controversy where I said I expect OpenSeven won't comment any more to avoid checkuser scrutiny. I made the above comment after reading the outcome. I only wrote here because I didn't know if I was still allowed to comment directly on the SPI case. But seeing recent activity there I will simply do it. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

PS: I see that in my first comment here I forgot to mention WP:Sam Blacketer controversy as the locus of the conflict, so you could have no idea what I was talking about. Sorry! --Hans Adler (talk) 22:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Digwuren

Your closing comment on WP:AE has a factual error: it wasn't Digwuren who posted the report about me, but Biophys. Also, my report is not a tit-for-tat move. The edit warring by Digwuren has been going on for a long time. The only reason why I decided to file the report now was because I was already at it (collecting diffs) and had time. My only wish is that the diffs be examined neutrally, irrespectible of who filed the report or at what time point it was filed. The diffs are clear evidence of sustained edit warring, the same action Digwuren was blocked for before for a year. I have been edit warring too. Probably even to the point that a voluntary 1RR restriction might be a good idea for a while. But this is irrelevant to Digwuren's case; his edit warring should be seen in the light of WP:DIGWUREN and his block log only. Some of the diffs (for example 14, which also was a 3RR violation) are very recent. I'm afraid that there is no indication that Digwuren is going to stop this behaviour if nothing is done. Offliner (talk) 18:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Note also that I filed the Digwuren report after encouraged to do so by User:Sandstein here. This discussion is from 12 June. Biophys posted his report about me on 18 June. My report about Digwuren is not a tit-for-tat move for Biophys' report; neither is it tit-for-tat move for anything. As can be seen from the above diff, I was thinking of posting the Digwuren report already on 12 June. Offliner (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, Sandstein should have noted this on the thread, or you should have said so clearly when filing the thread. Moreover, Sandstein should have dealt with the matter fully in the thread Digwuren filed about you if he thought Digwuren needed to be sanctioned. Jehochman 19:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you are stretching what Sandstein said. He said, in general, not in this particular case. After a nationalist tag team files a report against you, for you to turn around and file a report against their standard bearer is not helpful. I am of half a mind to ask ArbCom to ban the whole lot of disruptive editors around Eastern Europe. Discretionary sanctions are worthless. Jehochman 19:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

What I meant about Sandstein's comments (he made those comments after Shotlandiya was blocked on WP:AE for BLP violations and for edit warring with Digwuren & Co) was this: he said (my interpretation) that we should examine each editor's behaviour individually, without regarding the general issue (we already has an ArbCom case about that) or who is filing the report and what his role in the issue might be.

I can't help but having the feeling that the evidence about Digwuren was not really looked at because of the name of the editor who filed the report (and because of the time it was filed at.) I first thought I should file the report anynomously (trough an admin or something) precisely because of this (and because of what you said about filing a report after being on the receiving end.) I wonder the result would have been different if I had?

Also, what do you suggest I should do if Digwuren continues to edit war and commit other violations? Offliner (talk) 19:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for filing the arbitration request. I think it was the right thing to do. My comments above are now redundant. Offliner (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Glad to be of service. Go ahead and explain why we need a case, and feel free to add any parties you think are essential to finally resolving the matter. Be sure to notify them. Jehochman 19:36, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Response

I believe this issue has been resolved at AE. Why did you file the new case? This is contrary to your own recommendation. I do not want to be involved in any battles. Sorry. Biophys (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

It's been years of endless battling over these articles. I am drawing a line here and now. Jehochman 20:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

What exactly articles are you talking about?Biophys (talk) 20:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The whole slew of East European topics where nationalistic disputes fester. I keep seeing the same names fighting with each other at these places. Some editors are very good, others less so. We need witnesses to come forward and help distinguish the good from the bad. Jehochman 20:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is the problem. Good editors are those who create interesting and well sourced content. Perfect editors even manage to create neutral content, which is easy in science or geography but nearly impossible in politics. Bad editors are those who remove interesting and well sourced content from WP articles, or who remove the entire articles by making such articles redirects (like in diffs I provided at AE). But one should know the subject to decide if the content was fair. That is why ArbCom does not care about WP content. It only cares about people's behavior. Some of the worst content editors, who actually degrade WP articles, behave more or less by "the rules". They will win in such proceeding. One of the best content editors I met had communication problems and therefore was banned. There is no justice here.Biophys (talk) 21:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

"Nationalistic disputes festering" is an over-simplification. I have had more cordial editing relationships with people paid to push pro-Russian propaganda on Misplaced Pages than with a number of pro-official-Russian-position editors. Nothing is festering, there is a new crop of said editors going through the same old motions of edit warring, provocation, then accusation upon response to provocation. I've seen it all before. I honestly don't see what the new arbitration action will accomplish, we already have an arbitration decision and sanctions which apply. Don't wring your hands, if you've been watching the space, warn editors practicing inappropriate editorial behavior, and if they persist, invoke the remedies already extant. It's as simple as that. Yet another arbitration is, in the end, just an invitation to polarize and escalate the conflict. PetersV       TALK 05:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Based on other editors' accusations, Hiberniantears labeled me a SPA. It was only quite some time later (felt like weeks) that Hiberniantears retracted that characterization as incorrect. Your hope for "witnesses" is ill-advised as arbitrations deal with presented evidence and have nothing to do with determining objectively over the course of time, based on direct and multiple interactions with an accused editor, whether or not accusations against an editor are borne out or not. If you wish to remedy the situation which you decry, you already have the tools available. PetersV       TALK 05:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

At RFARB

I hope my comment there will not be seen as personal, but just to be clear: I gather you are an experienced editor and admin, but I don't understand why I was listed as a party there. I certainly don't want to be dragged into another lengthy ArbCom case in an issue I dedicate maybe one or two comments / content edits in a week... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

You commented at AE on a thread leading to the request. If your opinion helps create a deadlock, then you become involved. The big problem is that administrators don't agree on how to handle the AE requests.Jehochman 12:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I saw your comment about deadlock and banning contributors from AE. In case you consider me a "vested contributor" (I filed two requests), I voluntarily agree do not file any new requests without a permission from Sandstein or another uninvolved administrator. Would that be OK? As about comments on requests submitted by others, I obviously will only comment if a request concerns me, directly or indirectly.Biophys (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

About worthlessness

It doesn't take much to see who brings sources to the table and who contends all "POV"s must be presented as "equally valid." I regret your "I am of half a mind to ask ArbCom to ban the whole lot of disruptive editors around Eastern Europe. Discretionary sanctions are worthless." comment. They are worthless only if you fail to use them to stem clearly disruptive behavior. You're an admin? I would hope for more constructive commentary than expressing your frustration in public indicating you'd just like to line up and shoot the whole lot. I'm sorry, but from my perspective such statements only encourage those that seek to characterize this as nothing but a conflict of opinion. PetersV       TALK 15:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Review of evidence

If you (or someone else) is reviewing Biophys' case, can the evidence be updated a bit? After Sandstein's comments, I realized that the example diffs of POV-forking (Internet operations by Russian secret police) are rather old, and something more recent should have been mentioned instead. For example, the following is from April:

• Version of Russian apartment bombings from 17 April
• Evidence of FSB involvement in the Russian apartment bombings from 19 April (created by Biophys on 17 April)

The see why I think this is a POV fork, please see Russavia's comments on the AfD discussion: . Most of the material in the fork was cutpasted from the main article, minus all criticism of the theory of FSB involvement (thus, POV-fork). Much of the material was also available in yet another article at the time. I don't know if this makes any difference or if you agree with me about the forking, but I thought a more recent example might be helpful. Offliner (talk) 17:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)