Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:03, 30 June 2009

Herewith is a poll to gather consensus on how the community feels about the civility policy, in how it is written, applied, and enforced by the community, including the arbitration committee - specifically on how it impacts on the morale and running of the encyclopedia. Furthermore, upon thinking about it, if one were to change aspects of it, what would one change? Please keep comments to a minimum (except in discussion area). Exchanges which veer off the topic will be transferred to the talk page.

Finally, please revisit the page after you have commented, as further more refined observations may be made at the bottom, and consider making some yourself.

Essays which may be of interest (please add others here I may have missed) Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• User:FayssalF/Civility pages - a summary

• User:Geogre/Civility
• User:Giano/On civility & Misplaced Pages in general
• User:Moreschi/Alternative_Civility_Policy

Current civility policy

Please place your view below the appropriate section with respect to how the civility policy, in how it is written, applied, and enforced by the community, including the arbitration committee. if you feel specific sections are problematic, please place new proposals or ideas at the bottom. If too strict or lenient, place a word to indicate where problem is (policy/interpretation/enforcement/other). I am interested how editors feel that civility (and breaches thereof) is being enforced in practice.

Satisfactory

1. Seems to be working, in general there is a high degree of civility between editors here. This seems to me to be a reflection that the policy is working. added by Off2riorob too many tilds.

Too lenient

1. The policy is simple and clear, but not applied consistently. Fred Talk 12:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
2. The combination of WP:CIVIL and WP:CONSENSUS makes it impossible to rid ourselves of the chronically uncivil. In short, per Fred. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
3. I advocate, without irony, a zero tolerance policy on incivility, and would support any adjustments to the policy (which is not bad in general) to that effect, as well as much more stringent and even-handed enforcement. For good reasons, we do not generally tolerate name-calling in our real-life professional environments, and we should not do so here.  Sandstein  19:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
4. Far too lenient. I think the problem is that too many editors view the Misplaced Pages community as a microcosm of their own whole real-life community, where incivil behaviour is tolerated, and without strong consequences for unacceptable actions or comments. No big deal if you flip your finger at the guy who cut you off. But I think that analogy is flawed; Misplaced Pages is more of a workplace staffed by volunteers, and the workplace environment should be protected. If I volunteered my time at a local community center, but was rude and abrasive to my co-workers, I would probably be asked to leave. We ought to do the same more often here. Editing on Misplaced Pages is a privilege, not a right. Also, long-time editors should not have relaxed standards or be forgiven for incivil behaviour by virtue of their contribution history, per WP:No vested contributors. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
5. Agree with Fred. Keeping Misplaced Pages to the standards of a "real life" collaboration would be nice, but we need to figure out a better way of even-handed enforcement. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 20:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
6. This isn't exactly "too lenient" but it kinda fits... I'm going to toss in something to think about. Consider this policy (and the philosophy behind it, that we want a pleasant work environment) and then consider the general practices of the WP:RCP and the templates used, as well as the answers given when folk are questioned... is WP:CIVIL (and WP:BITE!!!!) compatible with the behaviour of some Recent Changes patrollers? What view do new users take away after being templated? ++Lar: t/c 21:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
7. Per Fred. Also, and more importantly, we should have consistency. Tough with people from various cultures, but we need a well-thought out policy everyone can follow, with a minimum of guesswork. IronDuke 00:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
8. The policy currently lists most of the actions that should be considered uncivil, but I would include that "personalizing an disagreement" with another editor should also be listed. Also, the policy should list the potential sanctions that may be imposed on editors who violate the policy, such as desysopping (if an admin), blocks, editing restrictions, etc. The policy is applied inconsistently. Long-term, "established" admins, for example have traditionally gotten-away with many more violations of this policy than newbie editors. I can find plenty of examples of this if anyone wants. Furthermore, the policy, if it doesn't already, should state that the policy applies to edit-summaries as well as to screen edits. Cla68 (talk) 00:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
9. Far too lenient. I'm sure we can all think of editors who've had a permanent bad-faith snarkiness that's never enough to call WP:NPA, but which (as others have said) would be thoroughly unacceptable in a real-world collaborative interaction. It's one of the many toxic characteristics of tendentious editors and (supposedly) civil POV pushers. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 01:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
10. The civility policy is spelled out pretty clear, but it is far too lenient in its enforcement. The more "established" an editor is, the more he/she can normally bypass the system by bringing his/her friends into the discussion to discourage any appropriate action. I think that the current policy would be more enforcable if more admins had the guts to stand up for the policy, regardless of who the offending editor is. This requires a change in the way we view the policy but not a change in the policy itself. ThemFromSpace 01:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
11. The rules as written are fine, but the enforcement is too lenient on long-term contributors. The more job an editor does policing unpopular (to newbies) policy stuff like NFCC and NOTE, the more uncivil they are allowed to be. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
12. Per Fred Bauder. Durova 03:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
13. It needs consistent application regardless of whether the person is an admin, long term editor or whatever and the community needs to back those who do enforce it. Davewild (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
14. Per Themfromspace. Stifle (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
15. The civlity policy is perfectly clear, and the application of escalating blocks for violations of it, to prevent harm to the project, is absolutely one hundred percent acceptable, and is equal, not secondary, to any other considerations, not least reduction of drama, loss of contributions or fear of appearing unfair (although, far too often, admins deal with incivility without dealing with related infractions of policy, such as baiting or wikilawyering). In cases of 'unfair' blocking, incivility should not be mitigated, it should be dealt with at the same time as any contributing behaviour. Too many admins too often in incidents, either passively, or actively, participate in the undermining of blocks issued under the policy by one of their supposed colleagues, without prior consensus, with the result that the policy in practice is too lenient, and often, such as the Bishonen case, ignored completely. Wide community support for the civility principle is made abundently clear time and again, so admins should either be prepared to enforce its actual wording, change its actual wording, or resign as being unfit for duty. Personal biases or subjective ideas as to what is or isn't incivility have no place in use of the tools, if it cannot be shown that the particular judgement calls they so often come with have consensus regarding interpreting the actual policy wording. MickMacNee (talk) 13:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Too strict

1. (And unenforceable). The framework of all that is needed for civility is encompassed in WP:PA: Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse. Misplaced Pages isn’t a nunnery; it is the real world and Misplaced Pages’s civility policy has been overly influenced by squatters (Read: WP:OWN) until it has absurd and completely impractical requirements, such as feigned incomprehension, “playing dumb” and judgmental tone. Too often, flat-out mean and disruptive (but highly experienced) editors can pull stunts like harass editors by nominating a page in a users’ own userspace for MfD or delete someone’s RfC and get away with it without even a three-hour block because they use polite wikiwords while doing so. Misplaced Pages’s civility policy needs to be revised to prohibit what should truly be the litmus test: is the conduct disruptive? Greg L (talk) 16:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
2. Agreed. Civil POV pushing has become one of the largest obstacles on wikipedia. The criteria for incivility is so ambiguous that many offenders who habitually violate the rules go unpunished because, as you say, are so darn polite about their agenda that no one dares question them. And in civil disputes, usually everyone involved shares some responsibility but the user who gets told on first tends to be the only one who receives punishment. Simply put, the process defies logic. It's created a tattle-tale-system that has no limitations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Unenforceable

1. The policy, while laudable as written, has not been consistently enforced, and it's possible that as written, it is difficult or impossible to enforce at all. "Civility blocks don't work" is a truism. ++Lar: t/c 12:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
2. More to the point, it is impossible to enforce in a manner that is both consistent and objective. Ultimately what is and is not civil is a subjective manner; there are egregious violations of the policy but far more fall in to the grey areas. At what point should the policy be enforced? When someone is grossly incivil, when they are habitually rude? Curt and burusque? Trying to define a brightline cutoff is going to be arbitrary, but without a cutoff point any enforcement of the policy then becomes itself arbitrary. As stated above, the policy is laudable and the goal behind it is certainly worthy, but the enforcement thereof is just not workable. Shereth 15:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Both in practice and how it should be. Its status as a policy implies that it is an instruction to be civil, rather than advice. Civility is an abstract; you cannot force a person to be civil like you can force them not to use personal attacks or harassing methods; you can only advise people to be civil like advising them to AGF or be bold. Possibly the strongest evidence for this is how blocks are applied for violations: blocks for not following policy (harassment and POV-pushing) work, blocks for not following guidelines (RS and AGF) tend not to. In this respect, civility works more as a guideline than anything. Along the same lines, I'd support changing POINT to policy, as that's more quantifiable and would work better as a policy. Sceptre 15:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
4. Agree with Lar. –Juliancolton |  15:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
5. Agree with those above. لennavecia 15:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
6. Obviously. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
7. Though I don't feel unenforcable is the right term. It is enforced-unevenly and often unfairly, which is the problem.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
8. Second RDH opinion. It's just a convenient witchhunt tool. NVO (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
9. It so much easier to 'block on sight' of any incivil word, but if that's all it took, we could block by bot. 1hr for 'sod' 5 hrs for 'arsehole' 10 days for 'Bernard Manning' (well he's a swear word in our house) etc. etc. The reason we have human beings as admins is so they can look at situations, investigate and then act accordingly. Incivility rarely just pops up out of nowhere - people can be driven to it, goaded into it as the result of unreasonableness on all sides, and yet we only sanction those without the cool to be cool? Bad idea. --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
10. I agree with the above statements. Enforcement is completely arbitrary and based on the whims. Perhaps a start would be to at least get consensus before blocking for incivility. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
11. Per Lar. As written, "incivility" could probably be found in 75-80% of disagreements, if one becomes a "strict constructionist" of it as it is currently formulated. Unitanode 00:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
12. I don't know if "unenforceable" is the word I'd choose, but it's the closest of the three options to "wrong paradigm" or "mu". -GTBacchus 00:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
13. A major problem is that an obviously uncivil editor will routinely insist that accusations or descriptions of incivility are themselves incivil. The policy doesn't do enough to discourage that attitude, and it encourages it here: "It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior ... as it is to attack any other user." Art LaPella (talk) 02:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
14. A key component of civility is tolerance. Not only is the policy unenforceable, it should not be enforced. I am reading a book on civility at the moment to gain insights on how to deal with incivility. Civility is a skill that anybody can develop if they are determined. We don't normally block people for poor spelling, nor should we block them for inconsiderateness or rudeness. My personal standard has been that incivility can be indentified and suggestions made for improvement. If incivility becomes so severe as to violate WP:NPA or WP:HARASS that's when I'd apply a block. Jehochman 03:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
15. The reason why it appears to be unevenly enforced is because it is unenforceable. Standards vary as to what civility and incivility mean, and much of that is cultural in origin. There are editors who have a higher tolerance to what is considered incivility (whether using it themselves or when target at themselves), and there are others who are manipulative and conniving (or otherwise disruptive) but are always superficially civil to a tee. It may be relatively easy to act in cases of gross incivility (ie the most obvious cases of name-calling), but to include in the list 'Feigned incomprehension, "playing dumb"', 'Judgmental tones', 'belittling' as examples of incivility in a project as open and multi-cultural as WP appear incomprehensible and dooming the policy to failure. Language skills and intelligence vary, as does competence in self-expression and EQ. We would be just as wrong in drawing the line of acceptable levels based on the lowest common denominator or the highest common factor. I am with User:Jehochman above that other criteria are more likely to result in catches than WP:CIVIL. I am opposed to a no-tolerance policy as a breach of WP:CENSOR — I like the jestfully suggested 'swearbot' and would counter-propose a 'hailmarybot' which will deliver penances to usertalk pages. But seriously, while WP:WQA may be useful as a vent, it hardly ever results in a warning, and even more rarely in blocks. The skilled intervention of another uninvolved editor, whether in userspace or by PM, does more than anything to defuse the tension before a dispute ever gets to WQA or WP:ANI. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
16. I agree absolutely with Ohconfucious, and also with GregL in the "too strict" section. WP:CIVILITY is arbitrary, unenforceable, easily gamed, too strict, and is almost of no use at all except to cause a cry of "incivil" every time something vaguely negative is said. I consider myself civil and don't think I have a personal issue with the policy, but I see it being used as its own weapon and degrading conversation. Everyone will be affronted by something, and catering to that mindset is disruptive. Instead of getting something done, we instead have arguments about whether or not someone was civil, which is generally a waste of time because everyone's idea of "civil" is different and arbitrary and there is no desired outcome. Civility standards vary widely across the continents and from person to person, and just as we try to not have biased articles, the only way to have a truly fair and inclusive policy on civility is to make it much, much more basic than it presently is. Maedin\ 06:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
17. Thinking about how to promote civility (or a collegial atmosphere, or whatever you want to call it) seems more promising than thinking about how to enforce it. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
18. Different cultural standards of participants make it impossible to have consistently enforced "civility". And participation of people from different cultures seems more useful to me than catering to the lowest (or highest) common denominator of "civility". Also agree with Jehochman's statements about tolerance. Kusma (talk) 08:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

WP:CIVIL is enforceable, provided that you're willing to ban the persistently uncivil. Only if you're unwilling to do so does the policy become unenforceable, and in that respect it's no different from any other policy. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

What is the bright line? 3RR works pretty well because there's a pretty clearly delineated bright line, 3 reverts. You can say "blocked for crossing the line" or even "blocked because you're revert warring even though you didn't cross the line, it's a line, not an entitlement" and it usually sticks. But what is "persistent uncivility"? (don't get me wrong, I know it when I see it, but that's not a good enough definition) Better to block when the civility crosses over into disruption, perhaps. Except that fosters a culture of being snarky but not so snarky that you can be called on it. ++Lar: t/c 17:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Is your contention that the only enforceable policies are the objective ones? That doesn't bode well for WP:NPOV, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:NOR... Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 17:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

These aren't holy cows either... some worship the cows, others eat them. All it takes to feel the difference is a bus ticket. Time for the ride is long overdue. NVO (talk) 18:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Objective policies are easier to enforce, I think, given equal amounts of desire to enforce them and other factors being equal as well. I just fear that this particular policy isn't enforceable. The lack of a bright line is part of the reason it's harder, IMHO. but it is neither necessary nor sufficient (to make a policy unenforcable). Civility is not something easy to achieve in any online community, the general problem is far wider than English Misplaced Pages, and is a subject of some considerable academic research. ++Lar: t/c 19:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think talking about civility in terms of "enforcement" is a very bad idea. If we try to make civility into a statute, and then penalize people for breaking it, we'll have missed the point entirely. The suggestion that civility admits of "violations" that carry penalties necessarily gives rise to gaming behavior. That is, people attempt to use any lapse of civility on the part of another editor as a weapon to gain the upper hand in a content dispute.

Preventing this kind of gaming of the civility policy must be a priority that we address, or we'll never get past the problems we have with the policy now. We need to have a policy that somehow incorporates the fact that reporting someone for a civility violation isn't a very civil thing to do, and when the report achieves the desired result, it is a result of some enforcement minded administrator being even more uncivil. These errors are made in perfectly good faith, and we can expect no better unless we provide better guidance as to how the policy is to be used.

If the central message of the civility policy is not a message about how we can use actual civility and diplomacy to resolve disputes, then it's not worth its bandwidth. We should make it abundantly clear that this policy is not a "rule" that they can report someone for violating. Instead this page should be a helpful road-map that guides editors through conflict situations.

If we can manage to discourage the lawyerly claims of rule-breaking that mire most drawn-out disputes here, it will be a beautiful day for Misplaced Pages. -GTBacchus 00:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• As you know from email culture, sometimes something you write may seem offensive to someone when you didn't intend for it to be. In borderline cases, the offending editor should be given a chance to explain themselves before corrective action is imposed. Cla68 (talk) 00:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, clearly. -GTBacchus 03:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

GT, are there any forbidden words or phrases then, in terms of being blockable? Or are there no limits on language for editors? IronDuke 00:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"Forbidden"? That's a word I would stay way the heck away from. There are words that are extremely unlikely to be helpful for collaboration when used in any context outside of a very specific use (e.g., discussing the article fuck). Blocking is not a penalty for using the wrong word, nor a penalty of any kind for that matter. It's a way of interrupting and cutting off disruptive behavior. Disruption can only be gauged with a mind to context, and no two cases will be quite the same. -GTBacchus 03:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As the policy defines civility, it can indeed be argued that reporting or blocking incivility is itself incivil. That doesn't mean we shouldn't enforce the policy; it would be better to remove the policy than to have it apply only to nice people who follow rules without needing enforcement. The trolls would joyfully overrun everything if our response were limited to "naughty, naughty", and nothing we say here would matter. The solution is to do a better job of recognizing that successfully dealing with unpleasant people requires some level of unpleasantness – even if it's expressed in bureaucratese, which many incivil Wikilawyers are fully capable of dishing right back at you. Art LaPella (talk) 03:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope that I haven't suggested anything to the effect of saying "naughty, naughty." If that's what it seems I said, then I very much failed at communication here. Of course I'm not suggesting anything that stupid.

I'm still in favor of blocks for egregious and/or ongoing incivility, for example. However, for the person involved in the dispute to start talking about blocks is a Very Bad Idea. The policy should be written to educate that person how to respond to incivility without raising the heat.

Blocks are absolutely part of the toolbag from which we can draw. It would be smart to try and get some consensus about which tool to use in which situation.

Being willing to use blocks to prevent disruption in no way implies that the civility policy has to be understood as a rule, with consequences for breaking it. -GTBacchus 03:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree whole-heartedly: like AGF, it is often uncivil to say someone has been uncivil, and I've long being advocating for reforming the policy so that it is more of a guideline of how to be civil than a policy that one can be blocked for; civility is too abstract to be enforceable, while NPA and HARASS are not (and are my baselines). However, the majority opinion as that being a guideline makes it less important (one of the few opinions which is expressly wrong), so I haven't been able to make any progress. Sceptre 12:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Of course civility can be "enforced", but not with blocks and bans. The way to enforce civility is to a) model it yourself, and b) ignore or shun people who consistently refuse to meet minimal standards of decency. Part a) is basic common sense, but seems to be much less viscerally fulfilling than a punitive solution. Part b) is basic operant conditioning: ignore uncivil behavior (thus removing the "reward" and ending the positive feedback loop), and reward civil behavior. This works. At least, it works better than the current system of arbitrary blocks and "civility parole". MastCell  18:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Should a user's own talk page be considered differently?

There has been discussion in past as to whether a post on a user's talk page, often in reply to a hostile poster, should be treated more leniently than posting elsewhere on other discussion or WP pages where dialogue occurs. Please indicate views below.

Yes, a users' own talk page should be considered more leniently

1. My talk page serves as such a place. Non-directed incivility is fine there, as noted on my user page and to those who frequent my talk page. Directed incivility would, of course, be a personal attack. لennavecia 15:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
2. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
3. --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
4. Yes, even though they are still "public" pages, I believe that users should be allowed to relax the "civility rules" on their own talk pages. — Ched :  ?  17:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
5. -- Benders Game 19:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
6. There are issues, certainly, with some comments, even when left at talk. However, I definitely do feel that talkpages should be treated differently, especially after an editor has been blocked, and is upset about it. Unitanode 00:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
7. The civility policy correctly says "If some action is necessary, first consider discussing it on that user's talk page." So one expects more personally oriented discussion to be on a user page, rather than a talk page for a specific article. If it's more personally oriented, that is one of the factors that makes something less civil. So of course user talk pages will be less civil, whether or not we state the obvious in the civility policy. Art LaPella (talk) 02:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No, all areas considered equal

1. A post on someone's talk page is an attempt to communicate with them. A hostile or degrading response is inappropriate. Fred Talk 12:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
2. Per Fred. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Talk pages are not private areas, they are public communication fora like every other discussion page.  Sandstein  19:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
4. Agree with Sandstein. –Juliancolton |  23:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
5. If someone is let off for the day at work, that doesn't give them the right to trash their desk and office... ok that's a poor comparison, but you catch my drift. Fred has prolly' said it better. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 00:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
6. Civility is a state of mind, not a location. Civil Users are civil wherever they are. Users should be encouraged to be as civil as possible and not to say to themselves..Oh I am on a Userpage, I can be less civil here. (Off2riorob (talk) 00:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC))
7. If you want to personalize an argument with someone or tell someone that they're acting like a jerk, use email, not their talk page to tell them. User talk pages are viewable to the general audience and need to comply with the policies. Also, the policy needs to state that it is a violation of the policy for an editor to react rudely to posts on their own talk page. For example, deleting another editor's post on you talk page with an edit summary stating, "Your input is not wanted or desired" should be considered a violation of the policy. Deleting someone's post to your talk page with a neutral edit summary like, "Removing post" is not incivil. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
8. No matter where it is, incivility is incivility, and a personal attack is a personal attack. They must not be treated any more or less so just because it was made in the user space. MuZemike 01:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
9. Talk pages are places to settle disputes, not escalate them. Just as with other methods of dispute resolution, the users taking part should conduct themselves with a resonable standard of dignity. ThemFromSpace 01:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
10. Editors who enforce policies over many, many pages have a tendency to become less civil over time, this means they shouldn't do that work, not be allowed to be uncivil. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
11. The hope is that a user's talk page could be a place where people work things out informally. Durova 03:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
12. Treat the same generally, but be understanding of the situation, such as not extending a block if the editor makes a brief incivil comment in response to a block. Davewild (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
13. Stifle (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
14. Don't be a WP:Dick anywhere. --Falcorian  17:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Myself I am leaning towards this - a userpage may allow people to vent in borderline cases only. Not unequivocal attacks though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

IMO, anything except from main article space is really the same. Article space has no place for any user bickering at all. So I recommend specifically excluding it from the scope. NVO (talk) 11:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point, I would have thought that was obvious really, so might reword above. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that venting after a block should be looked on leniently, but not general incivility, so don't know where to sign. IronDuke 00:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that venting after a block should be acceptable. This accepted practice has probably developed over a period of time, a kind of..watch out, Johns unblocked tonight and he's gonna be venting his anger all over the place. Users coming off a block who start venting should be blocked again and should only be unblocked when they calm down and agree to return in a civil way. (Off2riorob (talk) 01:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Sorry, I phrased it badly: I meant that users who had just been blocked, and were venting annoyance on their own talk page at, say, the blocking admin, can/could/should be cut slack. Thoughts? IronDuke 01:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Well I voted to treat all pages the same. As yet I have not seen that happen, the venter returnees seem to generally vent all around. They should be encouraged to vent in a civil way, and to enter into discussions with the blocking admin if they still have issues..and if they can't discuss the issue with the admin civily then they should leave it alone. Standards should be kept as high as possible. When venting is allowed to happen it rubs off on other users and lowers the general standard of the whole project. (Off2riorob (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Observation - is civility a particular problem in how we deal with new users at Recent Changes Patrol?

Yes (RCP)

1. Yeah, but it's a situation that doesn't leave much time for civility or even any sort of conversation. When I create a new page, I like to say something in my edit summary like "I've been editing WP for several years (see my fancy userpage), so please, please don't delete this article, I'll add references soon." That works 90% of the time. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
2. The templates used are, for the most part, written to be as civil and helpful as possible, with links to relevant reading. And yet, they have an aura of unfriendliness. But I think some of the interactions with editors who spend a fair bit of time at RCP, if you happen to question them about what they've done, are also an area where we see incivility. Newbies get bitten and those who question the RCPers get bitten too. Not always, but sometimes... and often enough that it's an area of concern. ++Lar: t/c 15:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Newbie-biting is more widespread than one would think. –Juliancolton |  17:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No (RCP)

1. Wouldn't have thought so. Stifle (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Observation - is civility a particular problem on the Admin Noticeboard and Incidents board?

Yes (ANI)

1. Depends on who's being uncivil. A newbie (or newish) editor with no friends may get laughed to scorn on AN/I, then blocked for complaining about it too much, while admins (or regulars) who violated WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE walk away with no consequence. This is understandable -- a lot of ANI admins are on the front lines, doing tough work, and so liable to feel impatient or burned out. But, since you ask... IronDuke 00:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
2. Agree with IronDuke. We're much less effective at managing incivility by established editors and administrators. Ultimately that undermines our collective credibility when people get blocked. Durova 03:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
3. Agree with the comments, care should be taken to treat all equally, creating a two tier system were newbies and IPs are treated differently from trusted users sends out a them and us message and undermines credibility and trust. (Off2riorob (talk) 08:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC))
4. ANI has become inherently uncivil because it is used as a vehicle to continue content or personal disputes which further exacerbates conflicts. Targeted editors will often respond with anger and frustration, further solidfying the impression that he/she is "uncivil" when in fact the response is more than natural. It has become a rarity to see true, genuine ANIs that have no hidden motive; such as attempts to steamroll users out of controversial articles or ban them from editing all together. It's very disturbing to say the least.. Wikifan12345 (talk) 12:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No (ANI)

1. I'm somewhat out of the AN/ANI loop, but from what I've seen it's no different than anywhere else. –Juliancolton |  23:42, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
2. Agree with Julian. If anything, people behave better when all the block happy admins are around, which is AN/ANI. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 23:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
3. People seem to behave better on ANI and AN. Cla68 (talk) 00:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
4. ANI has a problem with non-admins making inappropriate comments in response to requests they generally cannot help with, but not to the level of incivility. لennavecia 00:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
5. cf. User:Antandrus/observations on Misplaced Pages behavior#37: When someone screams about "admin abuse", it's most likely true – they're probably abusing admins again. MuZemike 03:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion