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Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Role of Jimmy Wales in the English Misplaced Pages

As far as I can tell, no one has drawn your attention to the above-mentioned proposal and related RFC on the talk page. –xeno 19:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. It is much too premature for this proposal, and it seems to mix several different issues. I am very open, as always, to making changes, and support a general movement to refine processes over time, but I think a much more comprehensive discussion is needed before an actual proposal like this is put forward.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record What do I want! modest incremental change. When do I want it! in the fullness of time after due consideration and reflection. So we're probably on the same page there. Will you give a view as to how you see your future role with respect to Arbcom and what contingencies are in place should you be unable to fulfil the role? Thanks. --Joopercoopers (talk) 01:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a very good question. I think a very useful model of a modern constitutional government with checks and balances, and a healthy mix of respect for tradition, stability, and democracy is that of the UK government. We have today a very different sort of system, as suits our needs, but there are many ideas in that system which we do not have here - many of which do not need here. Admins are in some ways similar to the House of Lords, in the sense that they are in office essentially for life unless they do something pretty egregious. We do not have a House of Commons, though perhaps we should. The ArbCom is something like the Law Lords, although again, not in every particular. I would hope to see some useful ideas generated over time, in collaboration with the existing institutions, which are working pretty well but have flaws. Having a single institution - a fully elected ArbCom with absolute sovereignty for example - would be dangerous for the obvious reasons. Having me with completely unrestricted power in all things, which we do not have and I do not want... I want less power over time, not more - would be dangerous for the obvious reasons. Having everything decided by day to day popular votes also has clear problems.

One way in which our system does mirror the British system is that we have admins, elected directly by the community, being something like Parliament (though being more like the Lords in some ways, and the Commons in other ways). And ArbCom being something like the government. And me being something like the monarch, with a customary veto which is rarely used (actually, essentially never). And other odd bits and pieces.

Institutional design is a complex matter.

On a more personal level, and I believe that the ArbCom members past and present will back me up on this, I serve the ArbCom in terms of providing some institutional and "spiritual" memory and reminders. I try to make myself useful to them, and I generally have I think. I raise questions and try to pose challenges and help encourage a spirit of thoughtfulness. I don't have to do much of this, because the sorts of people who are elected to ArbCom in our current system are not the type of people generally inclined to partisanship and bickering, but to reflection and deliberation.

There are risks in change, but still, we should always look for change. Orderly, thoughtful, and productive change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. And contingencies? --Joopercoopers (talk) 02:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure things would work out ok without me. Lots of good people here. How about this: in case of my untimely death or inability to perform my capacities, the ArbCom is hereby authorized to figure out what to do, subject to ratification with a 50%+1 vote of the community. In the interim between them coming up with a ratified proposal, the status quo is to be considered as much as possible. I will admend this succession plan from time to time upon the recommendation of the ArbCom and Community, until such time as we figure out a more longterm and binding way of dealing with it.

I promise to do my best to stay alive so that this is nothing more than a cute speculation, too. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Mr Wales. You describe part of your power as "a customary veto which is rarely used (actually, essentially never)". Perhaps this is why the French and German WPs—actually, every other WP—seem to do fine without such a role? On your UK governance analogies, I find the House of Lords analogy for admins to be odd. Tony (talk) 03:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"Leave ... Jimmy D. ... alone!" --- CHRIS CROCKER (link) ↜Just M E here , now 04:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, and probably something that is relatively not very well known, Jimbo's actual involvement in ArbCom business is, essentially, inexistent. He occasionally sends something our way that was addressed originally to him but doesn't require his intervention, or asks for our input on the very occasional matter that is on his lap, and we occasionally poke him for "philosophical opinion" when we consider matters of a more "constitutional" feel.

To give a sense of perspective, out of the approximately 16000 emails that have been on arbcom-l in the past six months, Jimbo has around 70 to his name, nearly half of which are on topics more social than Wikipedian. Rumors of his still ruling Misplaced Pages with the iron fist of an eminence grise are, at best, misguided. — Coren  03:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

An opening! I'm sure I have a grey suit in my closet *somewhere*, so all I need to do is bribe the Lord High Assigner of Titles to make me a Wiki-Cardinal.... ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC) And the kicker is this: According to WP:CONEXCEPT, this would be entirely official. <innocent cat-got-cream look>

Thanks Jimbo, I confess I'm rather confused by your analogy and think, as perhaps analogies like this are necessarily limited, that it is of little value. Furthermore, being from the UK and regularly seeing the lords temporal and spiritual drooling into their ermine, and given their resistance to the parliament acts, reform and generally conservative nature - I'm quite alarmed - I'm sure they're not exactly the best model for admins. The system is largely a finely balanced 1000 year fudge which has taken a millenia to evolve under competing and changing pressures. Ultimately it's flexibility is a strength, but the confusion of a lack of written constitution ensures only lawyers can understand it in totality - surely not a good thing. I'm also not sure we have the time and the key missing element is the commons. Perhaps better to visualise how our system might evolve.

Discussion of 'founder' contingencies or your gradual replacement leads to a question of what we might be replacing. Perhaps a good start would be to clarify your current role? The following are suggestions for a probably incomplete list - could you comment or add to them (or your TPWs)? Cheers. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Appointment of Arbcom members
2. Veto of Arbcom (ever used?)
3. Dissolution of Arbcom "The arbitration committee, on the other hand, can impose a solution that I'll consider to be binding, with of course the exception that I reserve the right of executive clemency and indeed even to dissolve the whole thing if it turns out to be a disaster. But I regard that as unlikely, and I plan to do it about as often as the Queen of England dissolves Parliament against their wishes, i.e. basically never, but it is one last safety valve for our values."
4. Clemency see above.
5. Removal of Arb members (You talk of a 'constitutional right' here - is it written? where?)
6. Founder user rights:"The 'founder' group was created on the English Misplaced Pages by developer Tim Starling, as a unique group for Misplaced Pages founder Jimmy Wales. The group gives Wales full access to Special:UserRights and Special:Makesysop. As Wales is also a member of the global founder group since February 27, 2009 (Jimmy Wales was a steward before), he has the ability to change the user rights of any editor on any Wikimedia wiki from meta:Special:UserRights, making the local 'founder' group largely a status symbol. However, as "local founder actions" are usually of great interest to the local community, and are only relevant to the English Misplaced Pages, the local 'founder' right also has the benefit of allowing Wales' actions to be visible in the English Misplaced Pages rights log; actions performed with the global founder bit are not visible in that record, but only on the log at Metawiki."
7. Desysop - various. eg. the last one
8. Policy fiats per WP:CONEXCEPT

   Spokesman and PR WMF role per tango below.

9. WP:IAR? Anything you believe will make the place better or more efficient? I think so, but checked by this "In the event that the ArbCom makes a ruling against me, overturning any decision I have made in my traditional capacity within Misplaced Pages, the ArbCom's decision shall be final." In the same post you announce this is a change in our policies.

   Fundraising WMF role per tango below.

--Joopercoopers (talk) 22:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(9) and (11) are more WMF things than English Misplaced Pages things. There is no proposal that I've seen to change Jimmy's position with relation to the WMF. --Tango (talk) 23:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Tango - I've struck them through. --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The English system of government minus the House of Commons is feudalism. I'm not really sure if that's the sort of governance model we'd want for 2009. Baileyquarter (talk) 03:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the entirety of the English Misplaced Pages would be analogous to the House of Commons, then? ---- The thing is (note: this next thought has nothing to do with introductory sentence), we always have to kowtow to somebody. Conceptualizing/making Misplaced Pages happen was/is a wonderful thing, in exchange for which some of us are happy to grant Mr. Wales the benefit of doubt with regard to his ongoing decisions and methodologies as he continues to shepherd the project forward. A lot of the genius of what's been created is the LACK of unnecessary rules and bureaucracy except those deemed absolutely necessary towards achieving the encyclopedia's objectives and purposes. Whoever imposes discipline and is in authority is gonna catch flack, even rotating board-member folks subject to popular vote blah-blah, anyway; and Jimbo overall is soooo freakin benign, we shouldn't really complain; so let's just leave the Constitutional monarchy (private college or whatever kind of analogy we wanna use?) how it is. ↜Just M E here , now 06:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The community as a whole is too big to make decisions in the same way the House of Commons does. We either need to form some kind of representative body or accept that major policy changes are going to happen very rarely and slowly. There are certainly advantages to not having the rules changing on a whim every few days and there are certainly advantages to being able to adapt quickly to changing situations. We need to discuss what system will be the most advantageous, but Jimbo's talk page is not the place to do it. --Tango (talk) 23:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not. Feudalism is primarily an economic system rather than a governance system. It's all about land ownership and military funding. I don't think the concept is applicable to Misplaced Pages, so it makes no sense to ask whether or not it is what we want. --Tango (talk) 23:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Look up Feudalism on Misplaced Pages. It is defined as a political system. You must have confused feudalism with manorialism. Warmest regards, Baileyquarter (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

David S. Rohde

Hi Jimbo. I've rewritten David S. Rohde pretty much from scratch; I think you'll find it's in much better shape now. Kudos on your actions in this matter - I think you did exactly the right thing. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't think it's right (and I speaking as a subject of the article, not as an editor of Misplaced Pages) to headline part of it as "Misplaced Pages controversy" - as far as I can tell, there is very little controversy about it at all, and certainly if there is a controversy about it, the controversy isn't a part of David Rohde's story.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, I've taken it out. Actually, there was less coverage about it in reliable sources than I originally anticipated. That may change, so I can't guarantee that the subheader won't return if it does turn into a major controversy. But hopefully it won't. By the way, if you need an article like that one to be revised in the future, please feel free to get in touch - I write for a living, I have a lot of research resources to hand and I'm used to short deadlines. To be honest, I could have made it a much better piece well before this news broke; there's a lot in reliable sources about the good work that Rohde's done on behalf of the Bosnian Muslims. I don't know if there was some reason not to add such material to the article but I would have thought the material I added at David S. Rohde#Srebrenica and David S. Rohde#Detainees would have counted in his favour. Just a thought. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

There is plenty of controversy within the Misplaced Pages community, but I haven't seen any out in the real world which is what matters for our articles. --Tango (talk) 00:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Jim, I would also like to express my support. I believe you acted in the most appropriate way, and hope you'd do it again ( hoping you won't have to though...).I'd do exactly the same thing.

Cheers, Paul Paul Roberton (talk) 03:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, you did the right thing. I'm happy that Misplaced Pages handled this difficult situation in the right manner. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, everyone here is supporting you... I do not. Given the amount of discussion at the Village Pump I'm wondering why nobody asks questions here. Well, I've got some for you at VP waiting for your answer... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.217.15.245 (talk) 11:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Your daughter and BLP

Ciao, Jimbo. An editor has raised a concern here that your daughter is named in our biography of you (there are two references to her in the Personal life section). I had assumed you were fine with this since you have discussed her in public, but do please let us know if it's something you're uncomfortable with. Mahalo,  Skomorokh  11:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the swift and useful response on this. If you ever feel like disputing something in the article, posting a note to a public off-wiki forum (such as your blog) should be enough to qualify claims at least; except on a few contentious points, the editors of the article are not as entrenched as one might expect. I realise the article over the years has been something of a black spot, and personally distressing for you, but efforts have been made recently to develop it into a biography of some depth rather than the string of controversies it used to be. Hopefully, once this process matures, we will send the article to peer review, where your input would be very valuable. Regards,  Skomorokh  15:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

One of the reasons I'm very sensitive to the problems that subject of biographies at Misplaced Pages face is that I have one, and have to live with some of the most problematic issues. I have at least one (near) SPA and an "opinion blogger"/"columnist" who enjoys slamming me actively working to influence the biography in a negative manner. In the abstract, we know that for subjects of a biography to interact on the talk page can be problematic if they are in the public eye - they risk accidentally creating a story in which their words on the talk page are twisted beyond recognition, thus giving the very critics they would like to honestly address even more ammo. In my case, this is not abstract, we know for a fact that it will happen. I actually think a fair amount of the activity there is an attempt to bait me into whining about it, so that the fact of my whining can be written about negatively as an indictment of my character. So I participate only cautiously.

Ironically, the most obvious solution to this would be for me to write people privately. But just imagine how that could be portrayed. Instead, I just try to ignore it for the most part, and trust that good people will over time improve the biography and deal with the trolling appropriately.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive

This is you bargaining with Bishonen that you won't block anyone for six months if she agrees with you to support a policy of punitive blocking for naughty language. That sounds awfully ill-thought out to me. I think you should strike that and think it through a little more. You're reversing long established policy in order to block people who use bad language. Who decides what language is acceptable? Would you block for "piss off" which means "go away" in some cultures? Would you block for "You are prevaricating"? No? How about, "you're full of crap", is that blockable? They mean precisely the same thing. You want to dictate what precise words are allowable and not, and you want to have three hour blocks for using words you don't like, and you - and this is very important - you have made it clear that unless Bishonen agrees with your view, you're done discussing your actions. Oh really? You're saying, "Agree with me, or I won't talk to you?" I'm going to presume you merely posted before coffee and didn't think this one through, Jimmy. There must always be room for disagreement in civil discussion. KillerChihuahua 12:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I would rather to continue the discussion over there, so I'm going to omit the rest of it here, but I have read it. I will reword what I wrote to make my meaning clearer. What I did mean is that sometimes discussions do reach an impasse, and at some point Bishonen and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. And I'm not bargaining - my good faith gesture is unilateral. And I'm not trying to move the needle (at the moment!) on block policy - I'm trying to look for something Bishonen can endorse.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted talk page archive of a banned user

Hi
Well, since you asked: Talk pages and moved talk pages of banned users are not usually deleted. The typical exception is the right to vanish, but that courtesy is not usually extended to banned users. RMHED got them deleted initially by moving them around to various subpages, adding sandbox edits to the history, and thereby obfuscating them enough so that admins deleted them in good faith as WP:CSD#U1, which specifically excludes user talk pages. Some time after the ban I noticed some deleted user talk page edits, so I investigated and restored his talk page archives and courtesy blanked them.
So much for background. I am not particularly familiar with RMHED, and what led to his ban. I believe the discussion leading up to it was here (February 2009), and the actual community ban was here (March 2009). I don't mind per se if a banned editor's talk pages are deleted after a while. With RMHED though, one of his last edits was this threat: "... maybe I will vanish or maybe I'll just retire this account and start a new one. Six months+ of being a good, well rounded little wikipedian should then equate to a nice easy RFA. Then the fun can really begin."
Quite possibly an empty threat, but if he's emailing you about his archives who knows? The old talk page archives might help identifying such a sock, and I think should stay around unless there is a very specific concern with them.
Amalthea 10:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! I'm talking to ArbCom about it too. I generally take quite a liberal view on courtesy deletion... if it helps someone walk away with dignity, well, in most cases that benefits us both. They walk away with dignity. And from our perspective... they walk away. If the relationship wasn't work out, it's best for everyone to just let it go. There are lots of better things for us to do and for banned users to do than to feud.

However, as you point out, there can be cases where the request for deletion is itself part of a problematic ongoing campaign of bad behavior, in which case, we might (reluctantly, I hope) choose not to honor the request.

But yes, I'm talking to ArbCom, and there's a good chance that I'll restore.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. Amalthea 09:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikimedia overwhelmed

Howdy Jimbo. Any idea as to the problems with WikiMedia Foundation today? It's servers are continously 'down'. GoodDay (talk) 21:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

A power cut in the European data centre. It seems to be fixed now, but it takes some time for everything to smooth out again. --Tango (talk) 21:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah hah. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocking for Bad Words, a Note of Encouragement to the New Day

• So, according to the subpage, Jimbo, you blocked Bishonen because it is policy that you should block people for saying dirty words, and the good that came of his block is that it established that policy. I.e. it was policy because you thought it. It had been policy because it was your idea. The usefulness of the block was that you did it, and that set proof for everyone else.
• Well, for all the people who think that you are something more than an administrator, or who believe that you possess wisdom, despite your overt lack of personal prudence, this should not allow them to heave a sigh of relief. Indeed, this subpage has made their lives much, much, much more complicated.
• Now our divine leader has, by fiat, created policy without the intervention of pesky administrators or policy review, he's going to leave it to you readers to figure out what it means. Let me give you some things you'll need to settle for yourselves, ok?
  1. Are all dirty words the same? Does a "shit" get the same block as a "fuck?"
  2. Are all dirty words the same in context? Does it require the word to be used as an adjective or verb, or can it be an exclamation? Does, "Oh, fuck me! I made a terrible mistake" get 3 hours, while, "Fuck you, you twerp" get 4 hours?
  3. Will there be a list of words that people may and may not say, so that people can be sure, in advance, when they are allowed to express their anger or frustration and when they are not, and how?
  4. If there is a list, will it be the American FCC's famous Seven dirty words, or will Misplaced Pages avoid systemic bias and use the BBC's list? Or will a person get blocked for using a word disallowed by the national broadcaster of the IP address of the account he or she is using?
  5. If there are differences, will it matter where the person receiving the comment is? Does it matter that calling a British person an "ass" is calling him a donkey, while calling an American an "ass" is calling him a rectum?
  6. Now that you have sorted out the exact weight and penalty of each word, will you also get at the synonyms for profane terms so that clever wordsmiths do not avoid the letter of the law and may be blocked for saying, "Intercourse your mother, you unstoppable masturbator?"
• Be aware that you have a brand new day of blocking ahead of you, an exciting time when you will get to block lots and lots of people, and perhaps even yourselves, for all sorts of words. I'm sure that you will have a good time discussing the words and how bad they are. After all, you don't want "process wonks" to question you. No doubt they're up to no good. Geogre (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Begging the question

• Jimbo, I explicitly vowed not to post on our discussion subpage again ; please don't force me to break my word by offering yet another "simple" "have you stopped beating your wife yet" question there (begging the question or circular reasoning). I am surprised that you don't realise that what I did is a non-blockable offense; there's no question of changing policy. I do not believe it's in the interests of the project for me to continue the dialogue. Bishonen | talk 19:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC).

Here's an idea which will probably be deleted in no time. Why don't the both of you act like the adults you are and shake hands, step back, and admit you were both in the wrong. Believe it or not, it makes you a better person if you can do so. Jack forbes (talk) 23:32, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

That is the most simple, reasonable and mature solution to this mess. I urge both parties to heed Jack's good advice, for the better of all concerned, and even those of us who are not.:)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 00:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, I know your on line. Why do you think continuing this "feud" is doing wikipedia any good? Jack forbes (talk) 00:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

A feud in who's mind? Please remember this is a wikipedia living person, this is verging on harrasment, please stop. (Off2riorob (talk) 00:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC))

Please stop? I'm trying to get the both of them to stop arguing. Perhaps if everyone told them that both of them were acting like children they would stop. But then, maybe I'm the only one willing to say it. Jack forbes (talk) 00:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Where you see a feud and arguing, I see a discussion. Perhaps it is better not to comment and to allow them to work it out. (Off2riorob (talk) 00:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC))

Perhaps you should take your own advice and stop discussing it. Jack forbes (talk) 00:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Childish admins are the worst enemy of a free encyclopedia, I'm sure we all can agree here. Kudos for Jimbo. --Taraborn (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Being presumptuous about other people's opinions is not civil. You may agree with what Jimbo did, but others may not, Taraborn. Jimbo, there is an ongoing, constructive discussion at Misplaced Pages:Civility/Poll. The consensus appears to disallow use of blocks for incivility. Jehochman 02:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see consensus for anything (based on counting the votes on each side, consensus is 2/3 or more of votes). Griffinofwales (talk) 03:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

In other words, despite Jimbo's declaration, there is no consensus to start punishing swearwords by blocks. To believe that short punitive blocks are useful for anything other than creation of drama looks to me like a newbie admin mistake, and I hope Jimbo has learned not to do it again. Kusma (talk) 07:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)