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Revision as of 19:57, 11 July 2009

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Kitten

62.194.6.92 (talk) has given you a kitten! Kittens promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Kittens must be fed three times a day and will be your faithful companion forever! Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a kitten, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

Spread the goodness of kittens by adding {{subst:Kitten}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message!

Im not affiliated with mr. Salisbury

Hi,

You had asked if Im affiliated with Brett Salisbury. NO, I bought his book and read his story. He has changed my life and my families by the diet he recommends. Every source I gave was seperate from his own. Not sure what you need to prove he is the real deal. You can hear live radio interviews, read book reviews, and read his bio from sources not related to his website. Does he need to make the NY Times bestseller list to convince wikipedia he is noteworthy?

He is changing lives, thats all I know... Thank you Mr.Dunbar 2129 Rickler Ave Seattle Washington Certified Dietician

Question relating to a topic ban

Hi Sandstein! You recently topic-banned Brandmeister from all pages related to the region of Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Iran, and the ethnic and historical issues related to that area (all broadly construed) for 6 months. I'm not sure if you're aware of this. My question: isn't that a way to circumvent the topic ban? Sardur (talk) 22:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Technically, no, because the page Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard is not related to the area of conflict. Should problems arise, I may extend the topic ban to all discussions related to the topic.  Sandstein  05:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Russavia's 1RR

Since we now seem to be following ArbCom's ruling to the letter, could you (or anyone) please point out where exactly did Russavia receive a formal warning about the Digwuren sactions, as this was cited by Thatcher as the reason why Russavia's restriction was left in place but others' was removed. Offliner (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Russavia was indeed never placed on notice prior to his 1RR restriction in June. He has no blocks related to WP:DIGWUREN either... PasswordUsername (talk) 23:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

He was previously blocked for two weeks under WP:DIGWUREN which was logged here. --Martintg (talk) 23:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

If Russavia disagrees with sanctions imposed against him, he can take it up with Thatcher or appeal the sanction as provided for in the discretionary sanctions remedy. I see no reason to concern myself with the situation prior to such an appeal. Also, Offliner, the next time you want me to look at something, I would be glad if you would provide links to whatever you are talking about.  Sandstein  05:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Firearms and Wikiprojects

I appreciate your input at Talk: SIG SG 550. As you might have noticed I have approached various firearms articles with the intent of adding a few subsections to better organize extremely long sections, and I have faced significant difficulties with a few members of the Firearms Wikiproject who disagree with my intentions, forcing me to escalate to proposing project-wide structure guideline changes. I am wondering whether my not being a member of the project invalidates my opinions. Are there any policies that say that Wikiprojects or their members have certain authoritative rights, or that outside editors may not make certain changes that fall under the scope of the project? Any guidelines, policies, or advice regarding any of this in either direction would be appreciated. Some guy (talk) 10:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

It appears you posted at the MILHIST discussion while I was writing this. Some guy (talk) 10:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, to my knowledge all editors are equal with respect to content contributions, barring special rules such as WP:COI. Certainly no WikiProject has any special privileges regarding the articles it covers. I am not sure whether there's a policy page saying so explicitly, though.  Sandstein  11:02, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

All right, thanks. Some guy (talk) 11:16, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you

While your comments at my appeal weren't exactly supportive, I still wanted to thank you for the time you took to look at it and for your participation, as well as the help with the formatting. Please keep up the good work.radek (talk) 13:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.  Sandstein  13:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

If I didn't already know...

...this would make it completely obvious that you are an attorney! Nathan 16:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Déformation professionnelle, I'm afraid.  Sandstein  18:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Smith2006

I would just like to say that I support your block of Smith2006. I have had unpleasant interactions with this individual before. Please read this odious edit summary . He is also openly pro-Hitler . There're more edits in the same vein. Prior to the expiry of his block, I will ask for it to be made permanent, but thank you for the relief you have provided. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Nukes4Tots

What do we do about this ridiculous behavior? . His attempts to avoid all discussion that isn't him criticizing someone are a serious problem. He continues to revert other users' work while refusing to discuss it (obviously not while he's blocked but you get the idea). He seems to believe that no one else's opinions are valuable and that any attempt to discuss his reversions is harassment and vandalism. These behaviors are immature and a massive difficulty that many editors are faced with. Some guy (talk) 21:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, well, while the attitude exhibited in these messages does give one pause, as an administrator I can't do much about it unless it exhibits itself in outright disruption, which these edits do not constitute. On the other hand, if he continues to insult people or otherwise clearly disrupts our project as soon as the block expires (note: disagreeing with you ≠ disruption), he'll have to be blocked again. If several editors share similar concerns about another editor, it may be useful to hold a WP:RFC about it so as to establish consensus for any corrective action that may be required.  Sandstein  21:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I know you can't do anything directly, but other than that I don't know how to approach the situation since he refuses to discuss anything. I'm mostly looking for advice. I know disagreeing with me is not disruption (I did not file an ANI for his disagreeing with me or even reverting my edits, I tried to leave that out of the equation entirely and said so in the ANI), but when the disagreement expands to blanket reversions that strikes me as disruptive. Is reverting someone's edits and removing that editor's attempts at discussion disruptive? I know that edit warring is considered disruptive. When his block expires, would you mind if I approach you for questions or advice if I feel his behavior continues to be disruptive? How many times can I use the word disruptive in one paragraph? :P Some guy (talk) 22:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure, if there continue to be problems after the block expires, I'll try and help. Removing your comments on his user talk page is not disruptive per se - users are allowed to delete these messages and it shows that they've read them - but reverting without discussion is edit warring. Though, of course, it usually takes two to edit war.  Sandstein  05:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Refusing to discuss a situation is trying to win by default - either the other editor gives up entirely or continues to edit due to lack of discussion and gets accused of edit warring. If one user is continually reverting good faith edits and will absolutely not discuss his reversions, this is a one-sided edit war. That's my opinion, anyway. Some guy (talk) 07:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Swiss Cuisine

Congratulations on your status as an Administrator. This means that you must have lots of skills and experience in establishing articles up to Misplaced Pages high standards.

I am not as experienced as you and just trying to do my best.

Looking at the above mentioned messy article - with the request for a clean up - I have tried and did my best to revise it for the better.

You have flatly "undid" my version with the remarks: "lots of spelling mistakes and other problems".

I would like to kindly challenge your wisdom is this instance, for the following reasons:

1. spelling mistakes have never been a ground to cancel any text (and in any case, I challenge you having made many spelling mistakes in English) 2. my proposed version is down to facts, easier and clearer to read and understand and IMHO more WIKI-like than 3. the old version, which you have returned to, unamended, and still having the request for a cleaning up!

Please believe me, I am far beyond putting any personal ego into the matter and tend to believe that I am being met with the same attitude and wikipedia criterias.

Kindly take up the challenge and let's try and find a common solution in the best Misplaced Pages interests

Kind regards

claude (talk) 06:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Claude. Thank you for your message. You see, the reason why I reverted your edit is because it contained some rather glaring errors, such as "Some of regional dishes", "cream souce". Also, I believe your edit made the language rather too simple, as when you replaced:

Swiss grandmothers used to use stale bread to make fotzel slices, which made it an ideal recipe for homemakers accustomed to the rule: "Never throw any bread away."

with this, which wrongly suggests that we - Misplaced Pages - advise people not to throw bread away.

Fotzel slices: using up the stale bread, as one is not supposed to throw bread away."

But of course you are right that the article needs cleaning up, and I thank you for trying to help out with it. Should we try it together? We could for instance work on a draft at User:Claude girardin/Swiss cuisine until we're both happy with the result.  Sandstein  06:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sandstein,

Tks for your explanation.. I appreciate your offered cooperation and shall soon have a go at it with some draft!

So long.

claude (talk) 06:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Errors of judgement

Perhaps Sandstein, you would like to add your apology here as you were one of the editors upholding a wrongful block. I suggest that you examine you strongly held attitudes before even more editors are blocked as the result of such intransigent and harmful views as yours. Giano (talk) 13:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

No, thanks.  Sandstein  13:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I rather thought that would be your response. You are arrogant and totally unsuited to be an Admin. I strongly advise you to wise ap and loosen up a little. Giano (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Roger Federer

Is it possible to make the page semi-protected, as I am getting a little concerned about the amount of edits that have occurred recently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuaselig (talk • contribs) 19:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

A link, please.  Sandstein  20:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Federer - sorry about not signing earlier, brain of a goldfish. Joshuaselig (talk) 20:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

What is the problem? There's no obvious and frequent vandalism.  Sandstein  21:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Edits by TennisGrandSlam seem to be frequent and he appears to be getting quite animated, just wanted a second opinion Joshuaselig (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Frequent edits as such are not grounds for protection under WP:PP. If only one editor disrupts a page, we usually block him and do not protect the page. Which specific edits do you consider problematic?  Sandstein  21:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

question

I just can help but wonder about this - was my appeal the first one at AE, or the first one for Digwuren, or have there been others? I ask you because you seem to have been around these parts longer than I have. Thanks.radek (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I'm only watchlisting AE for a few months now, and in that time yours was only one of two appeals that I remember. The other was a complaint made by a user immediately after the imposition of a restriction on him.  Sandstein  21:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

HELP

God, we were actually having a civil discussion about changing the policy and it's spiraled out of control into disaster-territory again. User:Commander Zulu has gone off on a tirade against me; you noticed his repeated attacks against me at the MILHIST discussion and his insistence that my opinion was invalid. He continues to misrepresent my words in a manner that seems like baiting to me, presenting twisted versions of my suggestions in All Caps As If They Were Mandates. He has been going to Nukes and Koalorka's talk pages to rally up support against me, and now they're all talking about what a terrible person I am, how I am clearly a vandal with only bad faith, and Zulu got both of them complaining they are being prevented from involvement in the discussion they had already chosen not to take part in. I hope you recognize how hypocritical this behavior is considering how much they criticized me for attempting to get feedback through multiple venues and accused me of things such as "forum shopping".

To make matters significantly worse, User:Georgewilliamherbert, an administrator, is nagging me on my talk page claiming there is a clear consensus against me and a large number of editors looking down on me and generally disagreeing with my ideas and behavior. He has repeatedly ignored and then denied my requests for him to back up these claims. He is also going around, to the ANI, and to Nukes and Koaolorka's talk page, accusing me of baiting, and rallying more support against me. His words will only serve to incite Koalorka, Zulu, and Nukes further, making them even more convinced they are right and giving them new ideas about ways to criticize me.

All of these things are contributing to making me extremely angry, whether or not this is the intention, and when I am extremely angry it impairs my ability to act civilly. I am continuing to try to act civilly at this point but as you might imagine I don't like being extremely angry. I just want to have the damned structure proposal over with and get back to adding subsections to the firearms articles. I don't want to fight anyone.

I don't know what to do. Please help. I am going to post this message identically at another user's talk page since he has also tried to help me act calmly and resolve conflict. Some guy (talk) 01:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your response to George at the ANI about Kaolorka socking, but he is continuing in his behavior. His comments towards me are not in the least bit helpful - they are extremely aggravating and have persisted to the point of harassment. He's trying to make me play games and hunt down the supposed heavy consensus against my behavior and all of the instances in which I have supposedly baited users into being blocked. What happens if I waste my time looking for these supposed things that he refuses to provide edit diffs for? Will he accuse me of being too stupid to understand and block me indefinitely? He is using my refusal to continue discussion with him as "evidence" that I have a communication disorder and is going around trying to discredit me, while he continues to threaten to block me indefinitely. There seems to be no substance to his complaints; he is "trying to help me understand" that other people have complained about me. I am aware of everything that everyone has said to me directly and responded to most or all of it. His behavior is extremely inappropriate. I have told him that if he has concerns of any merit about my current behavior, I request that he forward these complaints to an uninvolved administrator who can address these complaints appropriately but he has not responded to this directly.

I have asked User:Toddst1 for advice at his talk page but he has not been online since then. Notice that George carried over his harassment and his game to Toddst1's talk page as well. I am not asking you to do anything specific at this time, as I am still awaiting for Toddst1 to respond. Sorry for all the trouble :/ . Some guy (talk) 01:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I have started an ANI discussion on Some guy: WP:ANI#Some guy You may want to comment there. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It is my opinion that the ANI has been filed in pursuit of harassing me. This is all terribly convenient how he's set this up, so anything I say can be used as "evidence" that I have a "communication disorder". Anyway, that's enough from me. Some guy (talk) 05:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

blocking

Explain how that wasn't a flagrant COI, and I completely agree with Giano's comment that you are arrogant and unsuited as an admin. I was very mildly uncivil, and it seems to me you were watching closely for any mistakes I made. There's *no* way you would have done that if I agreed with you on the RfC, is there? User:Pzrmd 08:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

And don't call my decorations "junk." My comments were no more uncivil than that. Pzrmd 08:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

How what wasn't a flagrant COI?  Sandstein  08:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocking me. Pzrmd 08:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Which interests do you believe conflicted in that case?  Sandstein  08:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Your participation in Docu's RfC where you have endorsed like every summary opposite of my view, and you know how heavily I have participated in that. Pzrmd 08:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I was not aware of your participation or indeed of any of your edits prior to the incivility for which I blocked you. Even if I were, this would not constitute a conflict of interests. Just because I disagree with you on some point of policy does not prevent me from enforcing our (other) policies with respect to you.  Sandstein  09:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

We have both participated a lot in that RfC, and have strong opinions either way. It was a completely weird reason to block. I called you arrogant above, and that is worse than what I said at the RfC. Did you read my statement there? then you know how strong my opinion is. You endorsed like every view opposite of me and made your comments. I am convinced that if I were on your side you would not block me. Power-hunger…. Pzrmd (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I did not read your statement, and your conviction is wrong. As to for your attacks on me, would you like to be blocked for these too? I don't normally sanction editors for disruption aimed at me personally, but I can make an exception for you if you ask nicely.  Sandstein  20:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You did the same thing to my talkpage only you didn't revert it. Pzrmd (talk) 21:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

MY RfB

Hi. So as not to clutter up the main RfB page, I'm going to try to explain my position a little better. Indeed I have read the relevant policies, and I understand that in most cases AfDs should remain open for the full seven days. However, WP:IAR is also a policy; in my opinion it's detrimental to the project to "process-wonk", for lack of a better phrase (or for lack of sleep and I just can't think of a better phrase!). I'm not in any rush to be the first to close AfDs, and I don't view it as a race, but there are some rules that can be ignored when the situation demands it. I'll explain further if necessary. Cheers. –Juliancolton |  15:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, WP:IAR can at times be invoked for closing discussions early, but only in the rare cases when the project clearly benefits from ignoring the 7 day rule, e.g. in cases of excessively conflict-laden AfDs whose outcome is clear. In most cases, however, closing discussions early is no benefit, because there is no harm in waiting the full period. Moreover, the deletion policy is clear that AfDs must, not "should in most cases", remain open for seven days. I believe that you misunderstand both our deletion policy and WP:IAR, which is why I am sorry to say that my opposition stands. (In addition, I see process wonkery as a desirable trait in bureaucrats.)  Sandstein  15:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, fair enough, but in theory IAR supersedes all other policies. –Juliancolton |  15:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It does, but it must be correctly applied, otherwise it's just an excuse for doing whatever one wants to. IAR reads: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." This means that, in order to ignore a rule under IAR, you must demonstrate that following the rule would prevent you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages. Because waiting a few hours until the seven-day period expires does not prevent you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, you cannot properly invoke it to close AfDs early as a matter of routine.  Sandstein  15:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I hate to butt in because of the history between Sandstein, but I wanted to bring to everyone's attention the nature of Snow closes at both AfD and RfA which are not in either of the policies but connected to a mere article. Crats and admin have allowed even non-crats and non-admin to close based on Snow. This shows that there is community wide acceptance (if not consensus) that there are nuances to AfD and RfA which are not blatantly stated. These have also happened for longer than a year. So, if there is "wonkery", it is negated by the mass acceptance of these closures. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I do not object to the occasional WP:SNOW closure. Such closures can be necessary sometimes. I object to systematic closures a few days or hours early with no compelling reason, WP:SNOW or otherwise.  Sandstein  16:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

If consensus is not changing then why allow an extra hour? What about AfDs that go over extra hours because there is constant changings? This has applied to RfA also, especially in the classic question about DHMO's RfA in which Crats seem to unanimously agree that it should have been extended in order to appropriately measure how consensus was changing. WP:CONSENSUS is our primary policy in the matter and should be upheld before RfA or AfD standards are upheld. If it can be shown that consensus would have directly benefited from the extra time (such as people trying to edit it or complain about it) then you would have a point but I have not seen such yet. Now, if you look at RfA, my RfA went over by quite a bit before it was closed. There were many Crats watching, but no one bothered to end it immediately. In the actuality, very few people close things on the dot, and it would be a little strange to demand such particularality. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

We do not expect AfDs to be closed exactly after seven days. Policy states that there must be at least seven days of discussion. That's a difference. There is no problem if an AfD takes a bit longer than seven days to be closed. We have instituted this delay for a reason - to ensure sufficient discussion. We have even recently increased it from five to seven days. That is a good reason to observe it.  Sandstein  16:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS states that consensus can change. Since there is mass reliance on SNOW closures, the Deletion policy does not accurately reflect the consensus on the matter. Thus, your adherence to the letter of policy is to adhere to something that goes against one of our strongest policies, consensus. Furthermore, Crats discuss closing of RfA, so any discussion about closing of AfDs as reflecting RfAs has no direct connection. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

If consensus with respect to AfD closure has changed, which I do not believe (and note that I am not talking about SNOW closures, just non-SNOW early closures), written policy should reflect it. You can try to propose such a change on the policy talk page. As to relevance, Juliancolton's adherence (or not) to deletion process is relevant to whether he is likely to observe RfA process if promoted, in my opinion.  Sandstein  17:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a valid concern, but if it helps I assure you I would not close RfAs against process or consensus. –Juliancolton |  17:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

And as a side note, if you ever take issue with any of my AfD closes, please leave a note on my talk page so I can learn from my mistakes. –Juliancolton |  17:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I will. I had not previously noticed that you were one of the administrators closing AfDs too early.  Sandstein  18:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it turns out that I did contact you about this once, see .  Sandstein  05:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, you state that Consensus has not changed. If so, why are there snow closures at all? According to the letter of the policy which you claim should be adhered to, there is no mention of snow being acceptable in any kind of form. Thus, the policy is very outdated, as Snow has been around for over a year and should be reflected as acceptable. You can have one or the other in this situation - a strict adherence to what is stated, which would defy reality, or an admittance that the policy as written does not reflect the consensus of closures as a whole. It would be hypocritical to ignore the large amount of Snow closures as they are part of the not closing at 7 days mentality. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Not so. Since WP:SNOW applies to every process, it is just not reasonably possible to mention it explicitly on every policy page to which it may conceivably apply. And I say again, I do not object to WP:SNOW closures. I object to normal closures made too early. Actually, even WP:SNOW closures should be made only if the outcome is very clear after a short time (such as 20 keep, 0 delete after a few hours), but not a few hours prior to the expiration of the delay. That's because the very point of SNOW is not to waste effort on process if it is patently not needed - but it takes very little effort to wait a few more hours.  Sandstein  18:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, Snow isn't a guideline or a policy. It is an essay. It doesn't apply anywhere, unless you are willing to say that consensus has changed on those other processes and allowed it to apply. If so, then your argument above has no bearing. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I trust you will excuse me if I stop replying at this point, so as to avoid repeating myself.  Sandstein  18:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it is obvious that your original position has no merit. You claimed that the policy had to be followed strictly. I proved that the policy does not adequately reflect the totality of the situation, therefore, is flawed and cannot be followed strictly. Now, you are dodging the argument. If you don't want to reply, fine, but it is obvious that your oppose on these grounds lacks any merit and you are unwilling to acknowledge the reality of how Misplaced Pages operates when it comes to closing. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

If people were having a problem with the closures they would be taking them to DRV. I don't see this, so I would assume all of these closures are warranted and uncontroversial.--Gordonrox24 |  20:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a longish discussion at WT:AFD about this, see Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Archive 50#Advice re premature AfD closure and Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Archive 50#Proposal to discourage early "delete" closes. I did take a bunch of early closures to DRV once, at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2009 February 1 although there was no consensus to reopen them solely because of this procedural error. (Reviewing that DRV page again, I see that it was indeed Juliancolton who was the admin who had closed them early. I had forgotten that it was him.)  Sandstein  05:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

← Pardon me for posting to this thread, rather than starting a new one, but I had a question/observation that might be relevant in a "side-note" sort of way. I noticed that the RfA pages clearly state the closing time to be: "Scheduled to end nn:nn, dd Month 2009 (UTC)" Perhaps if we got someone to code that type of thing up for XfD items as well, it would help encourage a more standard procedure. Just a thought. — Ched :  ?  21:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. I'm not much of a coder, unfortunately, or I'd do it.  Sandstein  05:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd definitely support such a thing, if it would help to prevent mistakes or misunderstandings. –Juliancolton |  05:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll follow-up on it then. — Ched :  ?  13:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• posted at: XfD thread — Ched :  ?  14:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

How far goes Original Research?

Hi Sandstein,

I have some problems in War of the Pacific and hope to get some advice from you.

I try to make it short. There is a Treaty, officially titled "defensive treaty" and are a lot of references saying the treaty is defensive. But there are (far few) references that say, it was a menace for Chile.

In my opinion, a treaty, like a knife, is not intrinsically good or bad, defensive or offensive. That are properties given by the observer and stakeholder of the situation and that has to be said explicit to the reader.

My opinion is that Misplaced Pages can not state "the treaty was defensive" but "the treaty was interpreted as defensive by XX and YY and offensive or as a threath by ZZ".

What do you think about? Is that the first discussion in Misplaced Pages about the issue?

I hope you have time to answer this question before I throw my PC through the window.

Im voraus vielen Dank, --Keysanger (talk) 12:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry I can't help you with the specific question because I know nothing about the historic period at issue. In general, per WP:NOR, we must reflect the preponderance of academic opinion. But significant minority views should be given due weight per WP:DUE. You may want to gather opinions on WP:POVN or through WP:3O about this.  Sandstein  22:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Skäpperöd

Dear Sandstein, Skäpperöd probably shoudn't have gone to WP:AE, but he is a good-faith editor. Please don't take any action against him. AdjustShift (talk) 19:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)