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Talk:Hirohito#RFC:_Appropriate_Emperor_Name

An RFC on content related to naming conventions, as part of a naming conflict has opened, comments are welcome. MBisanz 01:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Naming conflict RfC

A Request for Comment about a conflicted name has been opened here: Talk:Scharnhorst_class_battlecruiser#Request_for_Comment:_Battleships_or_Battlecruisers.3F. Views from editors involved with naming guidelines and uninvolved with the dispute are encouraged. The Land (talk) 15:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Lack of table requires text cleanup

The Ambiguity persists section refers to a table, which seems to no longer exist. I don't understand exactly what that sentence is trying to say, so I can correct it myself. Libcub (talk) 21:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Settlement names in unrecognised countries

What would be preferred name for a settlement located in an unrecognised state, say Abkhazia, where the local name (Abkhaz) differs from the name used by Georgia (Georgian), which the world's states think Abkhazia is part of, and where many (but not all) of the international sources have chosen to use a third option (the Russian name). Since we should write descriptively and not care about right or wrong, and since settlements are self-identifying entities, should be use the current local name (Abkhaz), or should we follow international sources in this and use Russian names?sephia karta 02:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

To further complicate the issue, say the settlement is rather obscure, and there is not a lot of references to it in English (language) international sources, and those few that do exist do not have a clear preference for one version or another. Also, say the majority of this settlements inhabitants are actually Georgians and use the Georgian name for it? What do we do then? (PaC (talk) 04:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC))

Do you mind if I'd rather you not further complicate the issue? I am interested in the situation which I outlined above.sephia karta 22:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I was just making the description of the issue more in line with the reality. You may be interested in whatever you want. I am interested in this more realistic situation.(PaC (talk) 03:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

First: that's fine, but then start your own question, don't hijack mine. Second: what reality? I don't have any specific settlement in mind, but in any case the situation I outlined is not applicable to Ochamchira, in case that's what you're thinking, since there the Russian and the Abkhaz names actually coincide.sephia karta 16:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

First:"start your own question"??? How old are you Sephia? This is not your private chat. I ask the question where I see fit. If there was somebody here with a good answer to your original question then chances were they would have a good answer to mine as well. Second: did I say anything about Ochamchire?(PaC (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

You follow me here and reply to my question with a 'more realistic' scenario without knowing what settlement I have in mind. I consider that rude. And there is no need to act like you're telling me off.sephia karta 21:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you are deliberately trying to sabotage my question now that your twisted version did not fly. Most people would consider your behavior extremely rude. Grow up.(PaC (talk) 20:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC))

I'll let your thoughts speak for themselves then.sephia karta 12:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Misplaced Pages:Straw polls link

In the Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict#Ambiguity persists section the link to Misplaced Pages:Straw polls should be removed because that proposal is rejected. Instead of "In those unsolved cases a poll, for example via Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, can be conducted.", it could be "For the unsolved cases use Misplaced Pages:Requested moves." or sonething like that. --Mskyrider (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Linux dispute

There is a dispute over at Talk:Linux as to whether the "Linux" slot in the WP namespace should occupied by an article about "Linux operating systems" or whether it should be a pure disambiguation page. Currently it is an article about the family of operating systems. The issue is complicated thus:

1. It is undisputed that what makes an operating system worthy of the Linux name is its inclusion of the Linux kernel.
2. It is undisputed that the name "Linux" technically (and maybe properly, but that is disputed by a few) refers to Linux, the operating system kernel, the article for which is found at Linux kernel.
3. Popularly, when someone says Linux, they probably mean much more than Linux (the kernel) and maybe even more than Linux (the family of operating systems each of which contains the Linux kernel), they may even mean all the applications packages in various Linux distributions.
4. There is a detergent called Linux.
5. Some hold that the proper name of almost all versions of Linux operating systems is GNU/Linux and others are vehemently opposed.
6. Recently one editor has been performing mass changes in articles changing links from GNU/Linux (which is a POV term, according to some, but is at least unambiguous) to Linux (which is often ambiguous).

(I consider the last two points only of tangential relevance to this particular discussion but they serve to inform the debate.)

In my view the "Linux" namespace slot has been misappropriated and that "Linux" should be a pure disambiguation page. Specifically I would like to do the following: (a) Move Linux to Linux operating system, (b) move Linux (disambiguation) to Linux and (c) leave linux kernel exactly where it is. I am trying hard to leave personal prejudice behind and despite a personal preference for the GNU/Linux term I am not in favour of naming the current Linux article GNU/Linux - with some that would be a highly unpopular move. I can't find any guidelines which disagree with my proposal and I believe the supporting guidelines for this are:

(1) use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things

Hence "Linux" can't be used for the family of operating systems as Linux properly refers to the operating system kernel. I suggest "Linux operating system" and "Linux kernel".

(2) In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. For example a "common" name for a tsunami is "tidal wave" (this term being less often used for the tides-related tidal bore). For this reason, the Tidal wave page is a disambiguation page, with links to the two other pages, and not a page giving details about either tsunami or tidal bore.

That's why I favour a plain disambig page. The technical vs popular usage of "Linux" is very similar to the technical vs popular usage of "tidal wave". Same solution, therefore.

(3) But it does mean that we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people. ibid.

Yup. The bare word Linux can be unreasonably misleading. A weak point but supportive of my proposal.

(4) If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".

The discussion is ongoing and there is no compromise in sight. So, a plain title disambiguation page is best.

(5) When there is another term (such as Pocket billiards instead of Pool) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Delta rocket instead of Delta), that should be used.

This is a guideline telling us to use Linux kernel and not Linux for the article on Linux (i.e. the kernel). And similarly, why we should use Linux operating system and not Linux for the operating systems.

The strongest argument against my proposal is that we are supposed to be populist. The quoted guideline is from WP:NAME:

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

This is justified by the following principle:

The names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

In response I ask how come we have energy being the physics concept and work being a disambiguation page rather than some man-in-the-street article about labour, and why is car redirected to automobile and Mercedes to Mercedes-Benz, It seems that we do not dumb down at WP. That the term Linux is often used loosely or that it is used with implicit disambiguation (by context) does not, to me, seem to be good enough reason to have the Linux spot in the WP namespace occupied by an article on Linux operating systems.

Comment invited.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 10:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Very late comment: "Linux" is a kernel, not an operating system. This is a simple fact. I favor calling things what they are, but have recently been told to take that opinion and stuff it. Before I do so, however, I just wanted to chime in here, in favor of calling operating systems that use Linux as their kernel by what they are, e.g., "GNU+Linux" or "GNU/Linux." When the Hurd reaches the level of Linux, presumably many operating systems that currently use Linux will switch to the Hurd; will any of them keep the name "Linux"? I hardly think so. Nor will they likely be renamed "Hurd," or even "GNU/Hurd," because the former would be as absurd as calling them "Linux" currently is, and the latter would be redundant. No, those operating systems that currently use accurate naming will simply drop "Linux" and call themselves "GNU" operating systems (since the temporary shoehorning of Linux into the system, which has always been a mere a stopgap measure until the Hurd is ready, will no longer be necessary), and those that don't currently use accurate naming will begin finally to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 18:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937

There is a dispute at Talk:Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937 about inclusion of both airliners that crashed in the incident into the article's title. The norm for other articles is to either put both planes or a date and a geographical representation of the area of the title (2002 Southern Germany Mid-Air Collision was recommended, and is used here as an example). Only in the case of a commercial airliner crashing into a civilian plane is the commercial airliner's name the only one used in the title. Since the debate has reached a standstill, I would appreciate it if an administrator could look over it and make a ruling to end said standstill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vreddy92 (talk • contribs) 14:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Help needed in resolving naming conflict edit war!

There is considerable disagreement at Talk:Thylacoleonidae.

Summary: Marsupial lion and Marsupial Lion do not point to the same location, due to a scientifically technical reason. However, a few of us believe that there should be a better way to handle the situation, which would involve disambiguation pages or links.

Warning-- a particularly stubborn user is edit warring on this, so be careful what you say.

If you can help, please see Talk:Thylacoleonidae. Thanks in advance! Bob the Wikipedian (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Naming conflict not covered by this guideline

There's currently an argument at Talk:Tarot over whether references to tarot in all Misplaced Pages articles need to explicitly use the terms 'game-playing tarot', 'divinatory tarot' and 'occult tarot' to distinguish these different applications, or whether 'tarot' is sufficient if the context is clear. I believe it is highly awkward and artificial to require the qualifiers 'game-playing', 'divinatory' or 'occult' to be tacked on in every instance, since in normal usage, all three applications are normally referred to as 'tarot'.

This guideline explains what to do if there is a naming conflict, but doesn't give guidance on determining whether there actually is a conflict in the first place. The editor proposing this awkward naming convention is, I believe, inventing terminology to segregate concepts he believes should be distinct.

In a nutshell: is 'tarot' sufficient (assuming the application is clear from the context), or must we always use these bulky terms?

Can anyone point me to a guideline or ruling that would be helpful in resolving this argument? Fuzzypeg★ 04:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:POINT. Or even, WP:RS and WP:NOR. Point, because it sounds like this behavior and insistence is becoming disruptive. Reliable sources, because that is a foundation of our work and we shouldn't prescribe terminology that our sources aren't using (good writing shouldn't be slavish either, and Misplaced Pages needs consistency of its own, but in a conflict it is an easy default). NOR, because insisting on these qualifiers isn't something a generalist audience recognizes. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

This is a matter of being precise in our language. I did not invent the term "occult tarot" but it is a term used in more academic writings on tarot. To tell you the truth, I don't even like the term but it's one that has been used by authors on tarot history so this is not a personal bias of mine. Simply Google the term "occult tarot" and one can find books from at least two authors, one of whom is Michael Dummett, and websites on tarot history have also used this term. On the deletion of the re-direct, I inadvertently recreated it thinking it's disappearance was due to an error in capitalization. I should have been informed of its deletion and the reasons for it. Nobody gave me the memo on my talk page! In articles pertaining to the classical elements to name an example, I think it should be specified it is an occultist interpretation. Fire is not a really a suit of the tarot! . I don't see the symbol for fire or these other elements on most tarot decks! Btw my last edit, as I write this, was on the French Tarot article where I specified it was the French game of tarot because I think it should also be known that it's a regional card game of France. Concepts exclusive to occult or divinatory tarot should be specified as such. Concepts exclusive to the Rider Waite deck such as the images chosen for trumps VIII and XI should also be specified as particular to that deck and not all of tarot. There is nothing bulky about the term "occult tarot" and because some aspects of tarot are independent of the occult, this term is in no way a tautology. It is POV language and not keeping with a world wide view to employ the word "tarot" as if it's the exclusive property of the occult.Smiloid (talk) 00:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the appropriate place to conduct our debate; it is for questions and comments about the naming conflict guidelines. Lets keep our argument in one place, at Talk:Tarot. Fuzzypeg★ 00:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ireland

This paragraph in relation to Ireland is bunkum. It is written from the perspective that Republic of Ireland is the name of the state and Ireland is the common name. That is false. There is a dispute which is being talked through (badly) at the talk page of WP:IMOS. It is unhelpful that this disinformation is being used as fact in argument. Comment welcome there.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Used WikiCleaner, please do not revert

Used WikiCleaner software to fix disambig. links. Please do not revert, thanks! Funandtrvl (talk) 14:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Synonymous terms used widely by WP:RS

Per: "Sources of comparable importance use different names," I could swear I read last week that if a phrase is the main phrase used but other phrases are used almost as much by WP:RS (whether or not they have their own articles) one can say in the Lead: "XXX YYY (also frequently called WWW YYY and ZZZ YYY) is etc..." I can't find that now in this article or WP:NAME. Did I miss it, has it been removed or is it somewhere else? If it's somewhere else, it needs to be here in that section as well. This has been very contentious in two different articles and I just discovered these pages which help clear up a few other issues. Just need help on this one. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

"Jewish lobby" and "Israel lobby" are not synonyms, as has been explained to you over a week ago on the WP:NOR/N board. Jayjg 04:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

1. It would be nice to discuss this in general terms since the issue of when and what kind of synonyms have to have sources is a wikipedia wide issue that I have recently become aware of and not just one on one particular article.
2. That editor you link to makes the point that while Zionist Lobby and Israel lobby are synonymous, Jewish Lobby is not always synonymous with the other two. However, while I agree 100% that is true, the fact is all sorts of reliable sources, including Jewish publications, conflate Jewish and Israel lobbies all the time. And it's wikipedia's job to describe things as they are, not as we want them to be because it may be good for our particular POV. That is the whole point of WP:NAME and WP:NAMING CONFLICT, as I have just discovered. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Your question is only about equating "Jewish lobby" with "Israel lobby", nothing more. Your persistent mis-application of guidelines like WP:NAME is a separate issue. Jayjg 05:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to tell someone they are misapplying a guideline, you should tell them which one, in what article and why. I have to assume you are referring to my error corrected above. But WP:Naming conflict is all about NPOV per the first sentence of WP:Naming conflict: A naming conflict can arise on Misplaced Pages when contributors have difficulty agreeing on what to call a topic or a geopolitical/ethnic entity. These generally arise out of a misunderstanding of the Neutral Point of View (NPOV) policy. CarolMooreDC (talk) 19:16, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Still trying to find out exactly where the rules for putting synonymous names in the lead are written. Have run into about 4 dubious cases since writing the above in this section's lead and I think this article should link to such information so people can do it properly. Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

"Common subsets versus uncommon supersets with shared names"

I've just removed this undiscussed addition to this guideline, contributed by an editor who wants to use it to settle a content dispute that she or he is currently involved in at Talk:Glider. I'm not taking any position on its eventual inclusion here; but as things stand, there's a clear conflict of interests. --Rlandmann (talk) 03:11, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm reverting your removal. Since:

a) you're not claiming it's controversial

b) this is only a guideline and can be overridden by consensus

c) it tends to minimise arguments (which is the purpose of this guideline after all)

d) it's a good idea that has been applied in so far, jet engine, steam engine and internal combustion engine

e) having it here in no way settles any dispute anywhere, but tends to avoid them

You're also not assuming good faith; and I don't think that it will settle the dispute in glider.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 17:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I feel compelled to revert your reversion since:

a) It's demonstrably controversial and I can't understand how you can claim otherwise, given that you've cited it in an attempt to gain leverage in a content dispute here. Later in the same discussion, you admit that there's been similar contention in a number of other situations in the past. Perhaps the participants in those discussions should be invited to comment on this proposed change. Were they invited to do so?

b) Any guideline can be overriden by consensus, or simply ignored. However, just because consensus can override a guideline to hard-code the font of every article into Comic Sans 20pt doesn't mean that such a guideline should be written.

c) Does it? I'd like to see the proof before you go writing this into a guideline.

d) I will look into these over the next few days and comment further. I'm certainly not convinced that it's a good idea, based on what you've attempted to do with the glider and sailplane articles. Even the fact that you may have had your way with restructuring other articles in the past may not indicate this is a good idea.

e) How is this different from your assertion at c)? Again, simply asserting that it is so doesn't make it so.

I'm perfectly willing to assume that this was a good-faith faux pas. Nevertheless, it looks to me like a pretty extreme case of asking the other parent; indeed, attempting to become the other parent!

Whether or not you thought it would "settle" the dispute at glider, you attempted to invoke it there, indeed quoting it verbatim while failing to mention that the "guideline" was in fact something that you yourself had recently made up! --Rlandmann (talk) 20:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It demonstrably is not significantly controversial, see a recent discussion on wikien-l and Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions#Common_subset_names. People aren't exactly falling over themselves to argue about it. Except you. Who died an made you God of the wikipedia exactly?- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:29, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

If this proposal were uncontroversial, then I would expect that it could be implemented at Glider without opposition. This is clearly not the case. --Rlandmann (talk) 22:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, right. When has application of a policy or guideline ever been completely without opposition. People still argue about NPOV. Even if the guideline is not followed in glider (and probably that's not the way to bet) the batting would be about 5:1 on this principle historically, I'd forgotten about aircraft engine, rocket which also worked that way, there may be others as well.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 03:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

...which means that it's controversial... --Rlandmann (talk) 03:37, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

So, let's get this straight, your total argument is that there is an unfinished discussion in one article, which like any consensus in any article can override any guideline anyway; and that it's 'controversial'. That's not an argument.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 15:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

What I'm seeing at "Glider" (finished or unfinished) appears to be determined opposition to the implementation of exactly the principle contained in this proposed addition to the guidelines. You've also alluded to previous opposition at other articles, which further leads me to think that the suggestion is problematic at best. I'm also curious about the circumstances under which those other discussions were "finished". How would you characterise that? --Rlandmann (talk) 07:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Your vague 'curiousity' about 'circumstances' do you know credit at all. If you feel that the principle did not work out correctly in any other article, by all means reopen the discussion there. In the meantime I see this as purely bloody minded. Let's put it this way, give up this garbage here, or I'll reopen the discussion on glider, as I will have no other option, and I believe I will prevail both there and here. Your choice.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 15:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I would argue precisely the converse- it's only worth having a guideline here if it is slightly controversial. The whole point of this guideline is to minimise arguments, while generally giving a good result, if it wasn't controversial then it would be completely pointless. I'm therefore reverting the change. It's up to you if you want to revisit this again, but I would strongly recommend against it.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 15:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Threats to cause trouble elsewhere if you don't get your way aren't really helpful. You are more than free to open or re-open discussion on "Glider" any time you like (as far as I can see, it's ongoing anyway, so I'm not really sure what I'm being threatened with here). Furthermore, labelling people who disagree with you as merely "bloody minded" and their opinions as "garbage" isn't very helpful either.

I didn't label your opinions as garbage, it's your actions that I find as unacceptable, you're reverting a considerable proportion of my edits out of hand, and you've just left me a message on my talk page essentially asking me if it's OK to canvas other editors!!!- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Putting that aside, could you please answer the question that you ignored last time. How would you characterise the outcome of discussions on those other articles? Did you actually achieve consensus with the other editors involved? --Rlandmann (talk) 12:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Strangely enough, yes. Not being a sysop and not one to form cabals I'm unable to force my views on other editors (ahem), can you say the same?- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Which actions do you find unacceptable? What have I reverted out of hand?

I personally don't consider asking other editors about their experiences of rescoping per your proposed additions to this guideline to be canvassing. Nevertheless I wanted to be transparent and up-front about what I hoped to do, in case you had any objections on those grounds. Since you apparently do, I won't be proceding.

Can you suggest an alternative process by which I can test your assertion that the rescopes had the weight of consensus behind them? --Rlandmann (talk) 21:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact that people aren't discussing it or changing the article or discussing it further or creating similar articles with different definitions is usually considered to be good evidence for consensus in the wikipedia. If you insist on testing it in discussion form do so on the talk page of the particular article in the normal way.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I will formulate a question or two, and run them by you for your approval before posting them to the relevant pages. --Rlandmann (talk) 21:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, this is already core policy. See Misplaced Pages:Neutral_Point_of_View:

A Misplaced Pages article must have one definitive name. The general restriction against POV forks applies to article names as well. If a genuine naming controversy exists, and is relevant to the subject matter of the article, the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources. Otherwise, alternative article names should not be used as means of settling POV disputes among Misplaced Pages contributors.

A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view

My reading of this is that your creation of (for example) unpowered aircraft is very strongly disfavoured by this core policy.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 13:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Fundamentally, this also is very clear on this matter:

All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors.

- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 13:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this would apply in situations where there is demonstrably a controversy outside the pages of Misplaced Pages over what something should be called, or what a term should include or exclude. We don't (for example) want separate pages on Danzig and Gdansk (to cite just one of Misplaced Pages's most acrimonious feuds).

In cases where a Misplaced Pages editor creates a controversy her- or himself, I don't know that it constitutes a notable POV that needs to be included in an article.

Therefore, a blanket guideline such as the one you've proposed to add here reflects the core policies that you've cited here, but in fact, stretches beyond them. --Rlandmann (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Where does the bit I just quoted mention controversy? It says all significant views, not all controversial views!!! How do you get to the point that you think you can pick one, such as a definition of glider that excludes, for example, gliding mammals, and then claim, 'I see no controversy' and then override NPOV in that way? Surely you must be joking Mr. Rlandmann!!!- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Could you please moderate your tone and keep this discussion civil?

The word "controversy" never appears in the section that you just quoted. However, it and its near-synonyms (in the context) "conflicting" and "competing" appear frequently in the guideline that you have taken this quote from. Please take a look at the "Reasoning behind neutrality" section which explains why the policy exists in the first place.

Are you aware of published sources that treat the term "glider" as broadly as you propose to? (or better, any that indicate that there is a difference of opinion as to how the word should be applied) I am not. If you can produce evidence of "significant views" in reliable sources that diverge on this point, please do so. --Rlandmann (talk) 08:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to go through all that here, right now, that's going to have to go on in glider etc. In general terms, there are plenty of notable definitions of 'glider' around that describe a glider as basically anything that glides, others that some powered gliders are also gliders, and further that gliding mammals are also noted gliders. Even birds routinely soar, which I'm sure you'll agree is a form of gliding. These are all not in the glider article, and are extremely easy to source.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 11:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The take-home point in this talk page is that the generality of articles with respect to their name is enforced by NPOV wherever reliable sources can be found, which in practice is nearly always, except for particularly obscure topics. This point needs to be made clearer in this guideline, as it comes up all the time.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 11:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Saying that a thing glides does not mean that it is a "glider", at least in the sense that anybody actually uses the word. But you're right; that's a topic for Talk:Glider.

As I see it, the point in this talk page is that an attempt to construct a "one size fits all" guideline like this is a very bad idea if it leads to (IMHO) illogical outcomes like the one you're putting forward for glider.

Sure, guidelines can be sidestepped or even ignored on a case-by-case basis, but I think you'll agree that once an idea is put into writing on a guideline or policy page, it acquires a certain weight that it doesn't otherwise have. As things stand, I don't see why cases for the fundamental rescoping of articles shouldn't have to be made on a case-by-case basis. In other words, the onus to make that case should be on the person advocating such a fundamental rearrangement of content.--Rlandmann (talk) 13:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you can't really play the 'I think it gives a poor result in case X therefore I can override or refuse to state core policy on a guideline page'. Even if it did give a poor result, which I really doubt, that's just tough-NPOV is not negotiable in the wikipedia, and in conjunction with reliable sources it still controls the content of wikipedia articles in the way that I have indicated.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 13:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

This implication of the core policy needs to be pointed out here, otherwise many others will fall down the same hole that you and others in other articles have done, to the significant detriment of generality and scope of the wikipedia.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 13:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe the latest posting by Wolfkeeper is related to discussion above. I have therefore reversed it. If you believe that this amendment by Wolfkeeper was justified, or if you have a contrary view, please may we have a debate here before altering a fundamental aspect of Misplaced Pages. Please note that Wolfkeeper has also amended the guidelines on disambiguation emphasising the importance of NPOV. I feel that this may be related. JMcC (talk) 22:26, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

If you noticed he had not commented in 6 days, and my edit neither changed policy nor the guideline in any way, it merely pointed out that which is already true. If you can explain how I was supposed to have actually changed the guidelines or policy with this edit I would genuinely be most intrigued to know.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Name collisions

This is an issue that arises from time to time for me, & although I have been handling this on a case-by-case basis which mostly works (based on an absence of serious objections), I still am uncomfortable about my decisions. (And I am still amazed how how many names of Ethiopian people, places & things are the same names used in Japan, China, Italy & India.) So what should we do when two different subjects share the same name?

My primary rule of thumb is "first come, first unqualified": if an article on a Japanese town of that name already exists, for example, then the Ethiopian one is qualified as "X, Ethiopia". (I'll ignore the mess that results when I encounter two places in Ethiopia with the same name.) But when I discover the name of a town in Ethiopia is already in use as the name of a character in a video game, or a brand name (which has happened)... well, I'm not exactly willing to live by my rule in those cases; I feel that a person, place or thing in the Real World (TM) should take priority -- & be unqualified -- over one in a fictional world.

That's just one aspect of the problem: one could go into the use of parentheses, when there are enough names to justify creating a disambiguation page, & whether in the case of conflicts over geographical names the issue of size (either in area or inhabitants) should be a factor. Thoughts? Directions?

(BTW, I tried to find any trace of a policy or discussion on this matter before posting this, & while I am amazed at the amount of pages devoted to various problems with assigning names, I failed to find one -- which either means that it doesn't exist, or it is buried so deep in the maze of policy pages that only an expert could find it.) -- llywrch (talk) 17:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the maze of guidelines we've created is in need of some serious sorting out. But I think the one you might be looking for is WP:Disambiguation, particularly the section "Is there a primary topic?" I don't think it does or should have any dependence on whether things are real or fictional, just how likely it is that people are going to be looking for them in an encyclopedia.--Kotniski (talk) 15:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

About self-identifying names

The whole section on self-identifying names ("Types of entities") seems somewhat confused. I suspect it was written with Macedonia in mind, but if it were taken literally and generalized, it would imply a whole lot of things that we don't do (like always use the local official name for cities). Any objection to it being tidied up?--Kotniski (talk) 15:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Apparently not, so I'll have a go.--Kotniski (talk) 09:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I've made an attempt, and found much that seemed to need to be cut. (The section title is now "Self-identifying terms".) Let me know if anyone thinks I've left out anything important. I cut out the bit about distinguishing "self-identifying" from other terms, since I don't think our policy on naming mountains (Mount Everest, for example) differs significantly from our policy on naming cities on the grounds that the latter are populated and the former are not. And I cut out the Carimba/Mupatu example since it seems to be geared towards making a point about the Macedonia dispute or some other such dispute - I don't think a hypothetical example can be helpful here, since realities are much more complex.--Kotniski (talk) 09:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I have restored this section, since it is useful, very important, only one person decided to remove it - and it is of particular interest relevant to articles such as the Roman Catholic Church - Catholic Church article. Xandar 23:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

But it's completely at variance with other policies and guidelines (WP:NCGN, for example). Can you explain how it is useful or important, and what its relevance is to the Roman Catholic Church? --Kotniski (talk) 08:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any conflict. The guidance you quote states that it does not over-ride other guidance. And in this guideline it specifically states Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin. " So there is no conflict. Xandar 12:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, looks like this discussion is continuing at #"pro-life" below.--Kotniski (talk) 12:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Holy/Maundy Thursday

Hello, I am looking for some advice on a naming issue that has NPOV connotations. There is currently a major debate going on regarding the article title for Maundy Thursday; see the talk page. It is my feeling, and that of a significant minority of editors, that the title violates NPOV as reflecting particular linguistic, religious, etc. traditions, and that "Holy Thursday" is a better, fairer title that encompasses religious traditions that do not use the "Maundy" label. A majority of editors disagree, but it seems to me that their argument relies on their perception of the frequency of usage of one as opposed to the other. My feeling is that, irrespective of frequency issues, the usage of both is close enough that we are obliged to use the more neutral of the terms. It is clear enough to me that this is not going to go anywhere without getting some of WP's dispute resolution running; this strikes me as a very similar debate to the aluminium/aluminum debate (or airplane/aeroplane), where neither side is likely to be convinced by the other's logic, at least without some authoritative interjection/interpretation of Misplaced Pages's policies on this matter. I thought it would be helpful to get the input of people who regularly attend to these concerns. Thank you. MrArticleOne (talk) 19:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

"pro-life"

See also the discussion on #About self-identifying names above.

The term "pro-life" is propaganda. Who is "anti-life," besides pro-global-nuclear-war-ists? Even the homicidal and suicidal are not necessarily "anti-life," they simply want to end one or more individual lives. The debate is over "abortion," not "life." There are activists on both sides of the abortion rights debate, but I can't even think of any genuine "anti-life" activists. Even those who advocate the eradication of Homo sapiens generally do so for what they perceive to be the benefit of other species. Again, "pro-life" is pure propaganda and has no place in an encyclopedia except to reference its usage. When referencing the debates between those who call themselves "pro-life" and their opponents, an encyclopedia ought to avoid propaganda terms and use properly descriptive ones. The policy of calling groups by the names preferred by their members can be rather easily reduced to the absurd and is therefore impossible to maintain consistently. Better to call things what they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This is another situation which shows that the section of the guidance on self-identifying names removed by one person at the end of April needs restoring - which I have done. One can argue endlessly on whether a group "ought" to be called by any particular name - pro-choice or pro-life. The fact is that they use these names. The guidance makes the solution clear. Xandar 23:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages's solution is the reverse, surely? We don't automatically use self-identifying names. That's why I consider this passage misleading.--Kotniski (talk) 09:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That's the agreed policy of the guideline. In other words, it's what should be done. To change that guidance needs a lot more than one person's opinion. As far as I know the guidance is generally followed, except in the case of English Language names for foreign places, where another policy applies: eg Poland not Polska. An example of the use of this policy is Mormon Church which directs to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Xandar 12:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

So if it isn't applicable to places, surely it shouldn't start off by trying to make a distinction between different types of places? Can't the whole section be reduced to a statement something like "If it is not clear what is the most common name for something in English, prefer the name that it uses to identify itself" (and then give some real-life examples)?--Kotniski (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No. I was talking about the special case of English language names for foreign places. But it is basic to English Misplaced Pages that the English Language name of the body institution or place be used. But if that body has a preferred English Language name, that should be used. For example: Peking redirects to Beijing, and Calcutta to Kolkata. I do not think it will be a benefit to anyone to shorten the guidance, since the purpose of guidance is to provide a comprehensive aid to dispute resolution. Xandar 23:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That oversimplifies why we use Kolkata. It's not simply a matter of local preference; it has also become English usage, at least in Indian English and probably further. See WP:NCGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

So if I call myself "the literal supernatural creator of the universe" and do something to become notable enough to warrant an article here, then Misplaced Pages will accept that I am the literal supernatural creator of the universe and refer to me as such, without questioning the absurdity of doing so? I hardly think so. More likely, my article would be named according to my birth name, with a note in the lede that I refer to myself as the literal supernatural creator of the universe. Then there would be a section dedicated to the controversy surrounding my self-given name, which would consist of an ever-increasing list of "on-the-other-hands," going back-and-forth endlessly and generating the bulk of the talk page discussion. Yet all of this absurdity would be preferable to simply accepting my self-appointed designation as the literal supernatural creator of the universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 15:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, no. If you really become notable under that name, then that will be the title of your Misplaced Pages article. See Badly Drawn Boy for an example. sephia karta | di mi 17:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Note to self: 1) change name to "the literal supernatural creator of the universe"; 2) become notable enough to warrant a WP article; 3) prove sephia karta wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 04:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

• But we don't use Catholic Church; because it's not common usage - Roman Catholics use it, and not all of them; some of them prefer to communicate with the rest of the English-speaking world. So it's a bad example.
• Cabinda is a strikingly bad example; if we preserve this, we should use Fooland and Barland, not a potential, if now quiescent, naming conflict.
• Nevertheless, can both of you agree that self-identification is one of the claims that naming discussions do in fact take under consideration?
  • For one thing, self-identifications often do become common usage; I like the inversion of "anti-choice" and "anti-life", but those aren't suitable terms to explain the conflict in an encyclopedia - yet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Above remark is now out of date. Article name now is Catholic Church. Likewise Orthodox Church. Peter jackson (talk) 10:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Macedonia Request for Comment

The Centralized discussion page set up to decide on a comprehensive naming convention about Macedonia-related naming practices is now inviting comments on a number of competing proposals from the community. This issue relates specifically to WP:NPOV#Article naming and Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict. Please register your opinions on the RfC subpages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Altering guideline without Community-Wide Consensus

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Does this long passage on self-identifying names belong in a naming guideline?

The passage concerned being the one which was restored in this diff.--Kotniski (talk) 12:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kontiski and one other seem to be determined to drastically cut a major section of this guideline on self-identifying names without any consensus whatsoever. This is an agreed Misplaced Pages POLICY GUIDELINE. As such it needs not only a good reason and a very wide consensus to change, it needs a consensus that reflects feeling across the community. I can see no good reason to cut this long-established guideline, and no good reason has been presented here. We can't have people just altering guidance to suit themselves. So can these people stop taking it upon themselves to alter policy guidance without proper Wiki-wide consultation. Xandar 10:52, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, all this could be said the other way round - Xandar and no other are determined to keep reinserting a section that seems (on the basis of practice and other guidelines) not to enjoy community consensus, or even to make much sense. You seem to be mainly interested in it because you think it supports your arguments about what to call the (Roman) Catholic Church article, so you're hardly in a position to accuse others of altering it to suit themselves. Anyway, what matters is whether it clearly and accurately states how we do things - what evidence do you have for that? Evidence has been given above on this page that it doesn't.--Kotniski (talk) 12:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

My principal point is that this guidance was written in Summer 2005, and the part Kotniski wants to remove has been in the guidance since July that year. It has been there for the whole lifetime of the guidance and enjoyed community support for all that time. It should not be significantly altered or removed on the whim of one or two people. I believe it has a very useful purpose in specifying how naming guidance works in practice - with a clear theoretical example. Of course I was interested in it because the policy is relevant to a recent dispute. I'm not saying this is set in stone, but any significant change has to be carefully negotiated and approved by the wider WP community, certainly more than a couple of people who just happen to be here. I don't think there is a good reason for cutting this so drastically. It might also be useful to involve more of the original authors in any proposed changes. Xandar 22:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

• Question Why do those who want to remove the section want to do so? On the face of it it looks useful. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:56, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

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