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Revision as of 20:53, 26 July 2009

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WP:MOS subguideline, anyone?

Imo, this guideline could be far more usefully handled and improved if it where a dedicated WP:MOS subguideline. The applicable policy (WP:V) appropriately handles the required minimum threshold, while this page could explain various scenarious in greater detail than a policy, including the ideal case, or how to proceed in the many suboptimal cases where high quality sources are not easily available etcpp. User:Dorftrottel 14:52, February 15, 2008

Consensus

"The existence of a consensus within an academic community may be indicated, for example, by independent secondary or tertiary sources that come to the same conclusion. The statement that all or most scientists, scholars, or ministers hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material."

This guideline seems to contradict itself, depending on how you read it. I've always taken it to mean that you should not report a scientific or academic consensus unless someone else (in a reliable source) has explicitly said that one exists. Is this the intent? I think getting rid of the first sentence would fix it, but then that seems to leave a loophole where an otherwise reliable source makes a left field claim for a consensus that doesn't really exist. I'd like to get it clarified one way or another, so if anyone has any suggestions, lets have it. Gigs (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Since there's no comment so far, I'm going to be bold and attempt to rework this section. I'm extremely open to discussing the changes I'm about to make if someone has a problem with them. Gigs (talk) 01:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I would advise otherwise. This will have some significant implications for some articles. The consensus does need to be shown if challenged. This can be done either by explicit comment or by implication--ie use of a standard textbook. Personally, I find that many statements in the published literature from a party on one side of a controversy about what the scientific consensus is are somewhat biased, typically being examples of denying the presence of an opposition. The sttement of even a sound atuhority on the subject must still be attributed, and if different statements of consensus can be found, they must be included also. DGG (talk) 23:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you and I aren't too far off. The old wording seemed to imply that a Misplaced Pages editor could look at various sources and then declare a scientific consensus. I want to get rid of that implication, since that's almost the definition of synthesis. Gigs (talk) 01:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The Michael Jackson situation

Those interested in policing/updating/quality controlling WP:RS and related policies should take note of the issues occurring in the Michael Jackson article today (note particularly the talk page) in which undeniably reliable sources with editorial oversight -- the Associated Press, the BBC, CNN, etc. -- were being rejected outright as RS with regards to reporting Jackson's death. No less than CNET has even posted a story regarding this controversy here. I can understand the reluctance to go with information originating from the gossip site TMZ, but things got out of hand when the Associated Press was being rejected. I think the conduct regarding RS has set a bad precedent. I'm not pointing a finger at any user on this issue, but it is worth investigating for future updates to the policy. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 23:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you miss the point. When the reliable sources were reporting that there are reports of Jackson's death, these were quite rightly interpreted as not confirming the death. When RS began to report the death as confimed by the LA Coroner, they were accepted. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

For a while there, these news outlets were reporting that TMZ was reporting that MJ was dead. This, of course, is not the same thing as news outlets reporting that MJ was dead. I think we did fine. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

(speedforceironman1809081389099 00:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC))

Foreign language sources

Is it appropriate to cite sources in a language other than the one the Misplaced Pages entry is written in? The problem that arises is that foreign language sources necessarily are less comprehensible by possibly a majority of other contributors. However, in my view, sources written in those languages that are most widespread, like English, Spanish, French or German, should be accepted for citation. Sources written in such languages might easily be verified by other users. --Hcinmmod (talk) 19:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

See WP:NONENG. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Judging reliability of editing in newspapers and other sources

How are we judging the comparative quality of newspapers? They all have editors, but they are all obviously not equal.

Tabloids like the Natioinal Enqurier are obviously of inferior quality, but what method are we using to judge this? First, you need some method to determine if something is a Tabloid or simply reports on celebrities a lot (like People). Second, if it isn't a tabloid, you still need to employ some other methods to judge quality as a reliable source.

I think that people are frequently applying personal opinion, for better or for worse, as to what newspapers are more reliable than others, as it's not like there's some database of "editor reliability" and "editor expertise."

The only thing I can think of that's objective is circulation of the newspaper and how often the journalist/editor gets printed, which is an indirect measure of the consensus among journalists and their readers regarding the writing subject.

This is a universal method, because even with scientific journals, we judge how often a scientist gets published, is cited, and accepted within the scientific community.

If we are using circulation (in essence, popularity as a measure of consensus), why can't the same be applied to non-expert websites and blogs? It doesn't make sense to allow popularity of a source as viewed as being reliable for one type of source, but not others.

In other words, if Joe's website is frequently linked to by others as a good source to read (i.e. linking to him because they think the site is good, not bad), it would make sense to use Joe as a reliable source. You'd compare the proportion of recognition from all sources.

The quality as a reliable source would be weighted against other factors, such as whether there were multiple contributors, whether it's equivalent to an "op ed" piece or written in a more professional fashion, what sources they used for their information, etc...

Thus, I think that proportion of recognition as a reliable source (recognition within the relevant population e.g. the scientist population for journal articles) should one of the main indicators for all types of sources. It's not the only indicator, but it's an important one.

-Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that that circulation is a good way to determine a source's reliablity. Many people read a publication for entertainment value rather than for knowledge. Cosmopolitan and Maxim have circulations of 2,928,041 and 2,558,475 whereas higly respected academic journals such as Nature have a circulation of only about 65,000.

Ultimately, it boils down to whether a publication has a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. One way to do this is to look at the number of awards it has won. The New York Times, for example, has won 101 Pulitzer Prizes. Another indication is to look at how many times other reliable sources cite it. For academic journals, they actually have a Science Citation Index and Social Sciences Citation Index. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're comparing newspapers to scientific journals, which I clarified are assessed via different populations. As I said, the relevant population for scientific articles is the population of scientists, so you'd do what you just said--use citations and positive views from within the community. Plus, it's not just subscribers within the community, but anyone who regularly reads their articles and a lot of scientists read Nature.

There isn't really a readily available source for how much a print article is cited, beyond perhaps using Google or Alexa to see how much it's linked (if it's available online). In those cases, I don't see how that's different than judging quality of a random webpage the same way.

How do you determine which awards are "acceptable"? There are a variety of them from different sources, many with political and ideological leanings. I don't think a select, "elite few" should determine, for the rest of the world, what's the best. It's largely subjective (i.e. their authority is largely arbitrary) and expertise doesn't really apply in judging here (unless they are an expert in the specific area the newspaper article covers e.g. a geologist critiquing a journalist's geology article), which is why reliability should be left to the whole population of people who read that type of publication.

Besides, Pulitzer Prizes are usually awarded to the journalists, not the newspapers, and journalists often write for multiple newspapers, so then you've got a counting issue. There's also the fact that very few journalists have won such a prestigious prize; you're talking some small fraction of journalists, which would require limiting yourself to a very small number of articles (they award one prize per category per year).

People almost never win them twice and there's no assurance that past prizes hold the same value as they did back when it was originally awarded. If a specific journalist is covering something in an area related to where they won some prestigious award or recognition, that adds value to their reliability, but it's rarely the case that you'll get an news/magazine article like that.

In this day and age, the number of journalists and print publications is rapidly growing and many are reliable, non-tabloid sources, but comparatively little will win a prestigious award and that percentage will only decrease with time, because the number of new journalists per year easily over shadows the few awards given per year. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You bring up a lot of points, and I don't have time to answer all of them but it still boils down to whether a publication has a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. You determine this by seeing what other WP:RS say about it. Same thing with awards. Whether it's a Pulitzer or the Buckeye News Hawk Award, you look it up. Other indicators that we use to determine reliability are really secondary. For web sites, we often check to see if there's an About page, an editorial staff, named and professional writers, physical address, etc. but these are ultimately secondary to the core issue: a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. You'll note that Snopes.com fails many of these tests, but it is considered a reliable because it has earned an excellent reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Coverage by citation indexes

I modified an earlier change to indicate that not all academic fields are covered adequately by such indexes. I am open to other wording, because I think the problem here is a little complicated. For one thing, the competition between Scopus and Web of Science has caused them both to increase coverage, which is good for indexing, but somewhat decreases the quality distinction. Then, Google Scholar is among other things a citation index, and we do not mean to include it here. Third, it's not covered/uncovered--the coverage in, say , biochemistry , is not as complete as in mathematics where there are more small journals. Fourth, the distinction can not deal with the problem of journals of high quality from the first. fifth, the less developed countries are poorly represented (China though has one of its own--does anyone know about Japan?). The general principle that a source is reliable if qualified people think it is, is certainly true, but inherently a little circular. . DGG (talk) 02:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You can't determine that based on what other reliable sources say about it, because then you're stuck in circular justification, because you then have to demonstrate that the sources you're using as evidence of how reliable a source is are reliable, themselves. We're left with awards, but like I said, that creates their own major problems, which you haven't yet addressed (the rarity of them, subjectivity, and lack of a way to determine what awards are reliable). What does a physical address have to do with the quality of a website? How are you determining if they are "professional writers? Snopes.com fails ALL of those. It has only two writers (not professional) and no prizes. Snopes is considered reliable by web users and we know that based on site usage statistics, which is the criteria I proposed before.

DGG, I think you misunderstood the purpose of a citation index. A good citation index will tell you how many times an article is cited and even how much an author's articles as a whole are cited, as well as other citation measures. The more they index, the better the data. It's about how much scientists cite other scientists, not how much they've been indexed in search engines. They're usually pretty complete. You could also check other media sources that cite certain journal articles. -Nathan J. Yoder (talk) 06:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for some confusion. I was not talking about web sites, anyway, or about snopes. I forgot to put in a heading, so it looked like my discussion followed on to that one. I've put it in now.

I think I know very well the purpose -- and limitations-- of a citation index, having seen and used them since the very beginning of SCI, and having taught their use at 3 universities. And having written a multi-part peer-reviewed comparative review on them-, , . There's also 2 nice papers by a student of mine , .

Incidentally, i fully support the employment of site usage statistics to determine notability of a web site. It does not however determine reliability, or WP would be a RS. DGG (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The Washington Post

I do not belive that The Washington Post is an excellent example of a reliable source because of its lack of political neutrality. Instead, may I suggest a newspaper which does not have a political leaning such as the Wall Street Journal. I think this website needs to make sure that all articles are neutrally written and neutral sources are cited. Often times i find articles severely edited towards the "liberal" side, and no one seems to revert the edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonked116 (talk • contribs) 02:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"Instead, may I suggest a newspaper which does not have a political leaning such as the Wall Street Journal." Unfortunately, I was drinking tea when I read this. Now I have to clean my computer screen. --Jc3s5h (talk) 02:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Great comment Jc3s5h, the same thing happened to me when I read "Washington Post" on the main page.

The core problem here is that WP:Reliable sources assumes that mainstream media checks facts and avoids opinion in news articles. Even the media themselves have largely given up on the illusion of unbiased fact based reporting, the abandonment of which tracks in tight correlation with their declining reader/viewer base.

Eventually as the nature of reporting changes and shifts away from historical mediums and traditional news sources shift away from traditional rules of reporting this issue is going to have to be dealt with. Just because an entity makes money publishing information does not make them fact based and objective. Even today I would trust a primary photograph of a bunch of tea party protesters holding "Obama/Dems = Bush/Repubs" to tell me what the protesters care about rather than the Washington Post view of the event. Kehrerrl (talk) 20:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I recommend that the Washington Post on the main page be replaced with a better example that is more widely recognized as being unbiased and known for checking facts. Kehrerrl (talk) 20:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it is an excellent example... precisely because it doesn't have political neutrality. I can not stress this enough... sources do not need to be neutral to be considered reliable. What needs to be neutral is how we present what those sources say. Blueboar (talk) 00:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I actually agree with you. Ideally political neutrality should not be the measure of "reliable", fact checking should be. However, jumping back to reality...there are at least two types of errors a news organization may make. 1) They may posit something that is not true simply because they didn't research the facts. This is just lazy journalism, and while it should lower their trustworthiness, accidents happen and is forgivable as long as a pattern doesn't emerge. 2) They may purposefully pick and choose what subset of the facts to report in order to spin the story to fit their political views. This is not simply laziness or accident. It is willful mischaracterization of what actually happened at an event. This type 2 error is much more likely from a biased source than a neutral one.

Of course the remedy for such errors is to provide sources from opposing viewpoints. This is easy as long as our definition of "reliable" doesn't out of hand make that possibility very difficult. For example, in the United States, one political viewpoint typically owns the organizations that print or broadcast for profit. The opposing viewpoint typically messages through talk radio, blogs, and grassroots stuff. Yes there are exceptions, but it is very lopsided like that. To put it in terms of a real life case: if one listens to the "reliable" mainstream media one could walk away with the idea that the Tea Party protesters are out to get President Obama. However if one instead looks at "un-reliable" speeches, attendee photos, tirades on blogs, etc it is clear they are very bipartisan in their anger at the all politicians whose actions they perceive as bad.

I think that the WP definition of reliability needs to take this type 2 error into consideration and recognize that a biased news source is much less reliable than an unbiased one. I also think that the definition needs to adjust to the internet age as traditional news media is supplanted by internet age means of publishing. I'm not sure how that definition is adjusted, but without that change the WP definition of "reliable" may actually drive articles to misrepresent the truth simply because finding an opposing viewpoint that is deemed reliable is not possible. Kehrerrl (talk) 21:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah... but people with different viewpoints will often disagree as to what the truth actually is (which is why our criteria for inclusion is verifiability and not truth). You might think CBS News has a biased towards a left wing viewpoint, someone else will disagree. You might object to Fox News as having a right wing viewpoint... someone else will disagree. Our job is to mention both viewpoints and cite both sources for what they say. We can cite the Washington Post and the Washington Times, NPR and Rush Limbaugh. Blueboar (talk) 22:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

RfC on reliable sources for Eurovision Articles

I should probably have posted this here before. RfC on the reliability of sources such as ESCToday, oikiotimes is open at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Eurovision#RfC on reliable sources for Eurovision articles. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

When a reliable source clearly is not

I originally tried to post on this topic in RS/N but it got hijacked by a specific case and didn't attract disinterested commentary, so it might be best discussed here in the broad sense. I reasonably regularly come across ostensibly RS/V sources, for example articles in journals or newspaper reports, however the articles have obvious, glaring factual errors (usually without citation) that are easily disproved through better sources. In journals these usually occur when discussing cross-discipline topics, such as a pyschology journal discussing business. In newsmedia, well they occur all over the place! How should these types of sources be handled? Someone wanting to use them to support some fact can clearly claim they're from an ostensibly RS/V source and want to use it on WP. On the other hand, clear evidence the article is not reliable can not be included in WP as it would be OR. The current guidelines don't seem to address this problem. --Insider201283 (talk) 14:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What you are essentially discussing is comparative reliability... ie determining whether one source more reliable than another. The reason why we don't get into this in the guideline, or at places like RSN, is that such determinations simply can't be mandated by policy... they have to be discussed and determined at the article level, by those who know the subject and the specific sources under discussion. All we can say at a guideline level is that we hope that our articles to be based upon the most reliable sources available. We leave it to our editors to figure out what those sources should be. Blueboar (talk) 14:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages allows source-based research, but not original research. If I find one apparently reliable source that says the first human moon landing was in 1996, and 25 reliable sources that say it was in 1969, it is source-based research to write in Misplaced Pages that it happened in 1969, with no mention of 1996. On the other hand, if a reliable source says an automotive headlight draws 2 MA of current, it would be original research to measure the current drawn in a headlight of my personal vehicle and write in Misplaced Pages that automovive headlights draw about 2 A of current. --Jc3s5h (talk) 14:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

However, we can use original research on the article talk page when disussing the relative merits of a source in comparison to another. We can't put any OR in the article itself, but OR arguments that point out the flaws of a source can help us determine which source might be more reliable than another.

Also... something I forgot to mention... when I say we strive to use the most reliable sources possible, we also have to take into account WP:NPOV... if the two sources are expressing equally significant, but differing points of view on a topic we should mention what both sources have to say on the matter, even if one is considered more reliable than the other. Balancing POVs is important (and not always easy). Blueboar (talk) 15:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand that with regard using the source for a specific fact or point. My question is more when someone wants to use a source to support claim A, and there are few or no sources to either support or oppose the assertion - but elsewhere in the source there is also assertions B,C,D - and there are many sources showing the source is wrong on B,C,D. It would seem to me that this would question the reliability of using the source for claim A. So if you read an article that says "there's a tea cup orbiting the moon", and you can't find anything that says its wrong, but elsewhere the article also states "the moon is made of green cheese", "Neil Armstrong was the first mouse in space" etc - clearly this would weaken claims of reliability for the first assertion. An exaggerated example, but hopefully you get my point. --Insider201283 (talk) 15:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that it would weaken claims of reliablilty for the first assertion. However, whether it weakens them enough to exclude the source (and the statement) from use in the article has to be determined by debate and consensus on the article's talk page. It isn't something we can determine at a policy level because the issue is specific to the particular source. Blueboar (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but at present the guidelines don't really speak to this at all. It talks about the author and the publishers contributing (or otherwise), but not the text itself. Perhaps the problem is more that the guidelines as written imply that if it's published in a peer-reviewed journal, then it's ok no question. Now they don't actually say that, but it's easy to understand how editors could interpret it that way. --Insider201283 (talk) 16:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Policy statements have to be based on normal conditions and situations... and you are discussing an abnormal one... an exception to the norm (a source that dispite being in a peer reviewed journal may not be reliable). If you look hard enough, you can probably find exceptions to every policy statement on Misplaced Pages. These exceptions don't invalidate the policy statements. Most papers that appear in peer reviewed journals are going to be highly reliable sources. Look to the intent of the policy, and less to the narrow wording. Blueboar (talk) 16:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Unfortunately not so abnormal in some of the areas I'm often dealing with.:( So it's off to RS/N to duke it out on a case by case basis I guess. Thanks for your input. --Insider201283 (talk) 17:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Opinions need to come from notable people

This article doesn't say anything about whose opinion can be cited, in citing opinions. Presumably, Joe Blow With a Blog is not a source for an opinion on a random political issue. Opinions need to be from relevant or influential people--an expert, or maybe a leader (maybe belongs in the article for that person...). What are the guidelines? Noloop (talk) 20:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)