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• DUKE POWER CO. v. CAROLINA ENV. STUDY GROUP, 438 U.S. 59 (1978)

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Grok this - Supreme court said the risk is substantial

So no more saying the risk doesn't exist and pretending as though it doesn't exist. The supreme court said the risk is substantial, and that's that. Any other qualification of the risk will need a better source than the Supreme Court. (none exists) So until one of you files a suit and takes it to the Supremes, your going to have to live with "Substantial risk" Benjamin Gatti 17:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The supreme court said (as has been in the article for some time): Private industry responded to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 with the development of an experimental power plant constructed under the auspices of a consortium of interested companies. It soon became apparent that profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial. Although the AEC offered incentives to encourage investment, there remained in the path of the private nuclear power industry various problems - the risk of potentially vast liability in the event of a nuclear accident of a sizable magnitude being the major obstacle. Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage. Private industry and the AEC were confident that such a disaster would not occur, but the very uniqueness of nuclear power meant that the possibility remained, and the potential liability dwarfed the ability of the industry and private insurance companies to absorb the risk. Thus, while repeatedly stressing that the risk of a major nuclear accident was extremely remote, spokesmen for the private sector informed Congress that they would be forced to withdraw from the field if their liability were not limited by appropriate legislation.

Well, apparently the definitive view of the supreme court was that: the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage....... Private industry and the AEC were confident that such a disaster would not occur...the risk of a major nuclear accident was extremely remote

all depends how you quote it, eh?

The only time the supreme court judgement used the word substantial in a relevant way was in the quote above profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial. Deconstructing this sentence it says either (1)the risks accompanying private exploitation of atomic energy were substantial, or (2) the risks accompanying profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were substantial. The supreme court statement is entirely consistent with the view that there are no risks associated with atomic energy, only with private exploitation of it. It is entirely consistent that the risks are financial rather than radiological. Now, I think the court meant all the risks, of whatever sort. But it does not say there is a substantial risk of a nuclear accident. In fact, taken overall it says that private industry believed that profits would be small, accompanied by a remote possibility of being wholly bankrupted, and that as a business proposition this did not make sense. Sandpiper 17:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Not so fast there - Mr. quote parser. The Supreme court asserted that "it was clear .. that the risk was substantial" but it only quotes the Industry (they of little bias) as "being confident" that the risk was remote. There is a world of difference between assertions made by the industry and facts asserted by the Supreme Court. I have never challenged as factual that the Industry claims to be safe. You can print that in bold letter at the head of every paragraph - I don't give a damn. But what the Supreme Court ITSSELF has found to be factual - is that the risk is substantial. I will insist that wherever the risk is quantified that the Supreme court's qualification be used - and not as the (see-no-danger) crowd would have it that we sweep "substantial" under the rug and pleasure ourselves by reporting only the facts consistent with our bias. Benjamin Gatti 21:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I checked the entire judgement for occurrences of the word substantial, and the only relevant mention I found was this paragraph above. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it literally says as I discussed above. The entire paragraph is reporting the views of the industry: so if you would have it that the merely the industry is claiming it is safe, then it is also merely the industry maintaining there is substantial risk. I understand this apparent paradox as meaning that different risks are referred to. The high financial risk, and the low risk of an accident. The financial risk may have absolutely nothing to do with any nuclear risk at their plant: There is the tiny issue of borrowing billions of dollars to build a plant which you may then not be allowed to use for no reason within your control. 81.7.59.14 10:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)(User:Sandpiper)

Supreme Court is unassailable source

Until someone can truump the Supreme Court - I am going to argue that their findings of fact are supreme and unassailable. If we go to arbcom because I insist that the version of the truth held by the Supreme Court be maintained - then we go. Benjamin Gatti 22:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

We have a consensus Intro. Your proposed intro explained very little about Price-Anderson. Simesa 00:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

what is the issue? The supreme court ruling was included before, and is now. The only issue seems to be that you wish to leave half of it out, altering its meaning. Sandpiper 10:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Well then. Why don't we just include the entire decision then? I'm of the mind that a summary of what they said was permissible. I don't like listing all of the points or some of the points like we did. Summarize it. This article is not about the decision. It's about the Act. Keep it as short as possible. --Woohookitty 11:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree - it ought to summarized - not watered down. The act asserts the risk as being "substantial" now how do we get from that to this idea that the risk is insignificant? Won't wash with me, and I suggest it won't wash at arbcom. Benjamin Gatti

The arbitration committee does not decide content disputes. · Katefan0/mrp 16:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. If an arbcom case was ever opened on this matter, it'd be on user conduct, not this article per se. --Woohookitty 16:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The issue seems to be just the one paragraph. It was already in the article in its entirety before, it just didn't say it was quoted from the supreme court. Ben wished to add points from this paragraph to the section listing supreme court conclusions. I realised that actually all his quotes were from this one paragraph, and that it was already there. So how is it a problem to have this entire paragraph-everything ben wanted to include- in its entirety in the section listing views of the supreme court. Ben, if you think the meaning is altered by quoting the entire paragraph, then I can only think the proper meaning is exactly as the supreme court wrote it. If you do not think the meaning is changed by quoting the entire paragraph, what is your objection to it?

woohikity, this article is about the decision. My reading of the judgement is that it supports the act. It is a respected body and deserves to be heard. I do not object to Ben putting in a clear explanation of what other organisations have said in separate sections. Without rebuttal, so long as they accurately quote the source. It becomes a bit silly if we have several sections, each one cross-referring to an opposite POV from someone else. I am of the view that there is a significant body of opinion which does think this act is abominable, and it is fair to say so. Unfortunately, the supreme court did not say that.

Ben, are there other sections of the judgement saying different things which you would like to include as well? 81.7.55.187 17:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)User:Sandpiper

By the way Ben, i read what you posted on talk:Hubbert peak theory Conservation and Alt Energy are not likely to support the same levels of over consumption, but let's be honest - wind turbines are being built with less subsidy than nuclear plants, and nukes are part of the cheap energy reality. So we can and do have sources of energy which while they may not be fully competitive, are nonetheless, so closely competitive that the effect of losing one and coming to depend on the other is trivial. It's like losing GM, and having to depend on Hyundai. There's a difference, but far closer to a matter of preference than a calamity. Benjamin Gatti 06:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC) Ben, do I take it you think nuclear power is as near in cost to convential power sources as makes no difference? Sandpiper 17:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, even with the reseach subsidies, and Price Anderson, Wind energy, wave energy, and yes Nuclear energy are all close enough in cost that the increased reliance on any one of them would not threaten our current standard of living. That is a far cry from saying which of the three is more competative in a very close race, or that they are so close that it makes no difference. In the context of Hubbert, the emphasis is on a sudden disruption in our way of life being caused by the end of cheap oil. My point is that wind is close to nuclear, and nuclear is competative with natural gas, and so in the end, even alternative energies are not so much higher in cost that we can justify irrational fears in connection with the disruption of cheap oil (note that cars are a horse of a different color). Benjamin Gatti 20:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

well whatever colour the cars are, you compared the cost difference between fuels as akin to choosing a different brand of car, GM or Hyundai, and 'the effect of losing one and coming to depend on the other is trivial'. Sandpiper 02:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

great

A revert war. I think that's the only thing we had avoided. Oi vey. I wish I had never gotten into this mess. --Woohookitty 16:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Serious and well intentioned people are just the worst, aren't they? Sandpiper 17:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I've learned alot. There are just times when I wish I had told katefan0 (who first told me about this back in June) "no thanks". :) --Woohookitty 17:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Capitalisation

Hi Ral, I reverted Constitutional challenge to Constitutional Challenge. However, I think I figured out what you were getting at. I checked a few articles and heading capitalisation varies, probably because no one else knows exactly the preferred style either. I havn't changed it back again, because under the circumstances it didn't seem a good plan to generate yet another edit. (and it is on my list of things to investigate) Sandpiper 18:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Does not adequately protect the public" is incomplete

I interpret critics to be arguing the act was designed with the purpose of protecting the nuclear industry at the expense of the public so "does not adequately protect" is incomplete or the opposite/wrong way of thinking about this. I believe they are saying "is detrimental to public safety". zen master T 18:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

from my own point of view, i have not progressed sufficiently far with this to analyse exactly what the critics have claimed. One of the acts stated aims was to protect the public, the other to encourage nuclear power. It is arguable that the act improves the public's position as compared to no act, even though it might still be criticised as inadequate. The supreme court upheld that it did adequately protect the public. Perhaps another interpretation of the criticism is that anything furthering the existence of nuclear power is creating a grave risk to the public, which might more accord with your suggestion.

Ah, i see this is further to a proposed change to the slightly wobbly consensus view of the first paragraph. So my POV would be that I do not support changes at this time, but am open to persuasion based upon exactly what the critics have said. However I doubt very much the 'federal body' claimed the act was 'detrimental to public safety', and reserve that the paragraph overal must not overstate criticisms of the act. Sandpiper 20:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Touche' - Indeed my objection to the current intro includes this complaint. The Federal body described it openly as a subsidy to investors - but unlike plebian editors, does not necessarily equate "subsidy" with "criticism" - and certainly did not go so far as to say that it did not protect the public. Subsidy (like Scheme) is a neutral word which may or may not be used critically. But the editors here tend to put a great emphasis on the connotation of words given their most pedestrian (and oh so often misunderstood) use. Benjamin Gatti 20:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I suggest that we quit pretending to have a "consensus version", until we in fact do have. Benjamin Gatti 20:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Well we actually do. IIRC it was agreed to by me, Simesa, katefan0 and I think Sandpiper...or he agreed with most of it anyway. The only person not to agree was you Ben. Consensus is not 100% approval. 4 or even 3 to 1 can be considered a consensus. --Woohookitty 21:05, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It was agreed by me too. It needs improving, but that is about exact wording not meaning. people keep hacking at it (simesa, i see what your comment about 'problematic results from courts' was meant to mean, but I would have to argue it is criticism of the american legal system which deserves to be discussed later, as it was once upon a time)Sandpiper 21:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

We could do that. "Problematic" is based on a Supreme Court statement, "While in theory no legal limit would be placed on liability, as a practical matter the public would be less assured of obtaining compensation than under Price-Anderson. Establishing liability would depend in each case on state tort law and procedures, and these might or might not provide for no-fault liability." Simesa 23:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi simesa. Just looked up your quote. It is actually the words of chairman Anders of the NRC, giving evidence. The court quotes it to give the case for PA, then has a paragraph summarising the arguments against PA. The courts conclusion is actually the big quoted paragraph now at the start of the 'constitutional challenge' section, which used to be in tha article all along. So I would suggest the big paragraph, attributed to the court would suffice? Now, if we can just get Ben to accept that paragraph too, since it the same one his three quotes were extracted from.... I think raising the issue straight in the introduction is just too complicated. Just a blunt statement that normal process is altered?Sandpiper

Good point about any nuclear power could be interpreted as a grave risk to the public, I just interpreted the old intro to be understating or mistating the critics' view. If the point/title of the act is "nuclear industries indemnity act" how can the public possibly be protected in a civil law sense? My "public safety" phraseology is perhaps is a little too much and should be mofified, but "adquately protecting the public" is an inaccurate or opposite way of interpreting what critics are saying I believe. Perhaps we need a couple of sentences to succinctly paraphrase what each critic is saying instead of trying to find some generic, and potentially watered-down, consensus criticism? zen master T 20:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

'Bear in mind that legal protection is not the same as "safety" One suggests a recourse to damages as "protection", while "safety" would appear to refer to preventative measures designed to prevent an accident in the first place. My family is protected against my deat by life insurance, but I am not more safe as a result. Benjamin Gatti 20:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, it could be argued that because the nuclear industry has a civil get out of jail free card they are much less likely to be diligent when it comes to safety. Though I agree "public safety" is a little too much and we should change it to something like "critics argue it eliminates or lessens civil protections and recourses the public would normally have after an accident" or some such. zen master T 21:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Does not adequately protect the public" IMO is fine for the intro. Zen argues that it's incomplete, but of course it's incomplete. It's the intro, it should hit the high points -- it doesn't need to be and shouldn't be complete. The article can (and does) later elaborate on just how its critics think it's flawed. · Katefan0/mrp 21:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

actually, i think we need two sentences like a hole in the head. We have enough difficulty with just one. If you indemnify something, then you keep it from harm: in this instance you protect companies from being sued into bancruptcy, but you do it by creating a fund (probably considerably larger than the companies own resources, $10 billion) which will compensate any victims. So while the company is protected, the victims are also more protected than otherwise. Further, since all the money comes from the companies (but not just the one concerned), it is self-financing, just like ordinary insurance. Quite clever, really. Also, it alters the law to make suing easier. The rest of the intro is a bit negative already, as it were to balance the negativity around.

The issue of whether this makes a company less safety conscious is addressed by firstly the observation that they are likely to be out of business anyway if something serious happens at their plant, and secondly that the act has absolutely nothing to do with safety regulations, inspections,licensing, criminal penalties or fines for breeching regulations. Sandpiper 21:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to clarity the lack of civil recourse point. Also, after I've thought about it when I said "incomplete" I actually mean "mistated" as in "the critics' views were being mistated". What is wrong with "critics argue it was wrong to eliminate or lessen civil protections and recourses that would normally be available after and accident"? To resolve an interpretation of critics views I think we are going to have to examine them more closely. Kate, a suffict summary is good except when it's misleading. zen master T 21:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Does not adequately protect the public" is not misleading. Your version rather is, as it isn't as inclusive as the shorter version. · Katefan0/mrp 21:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The point of the sentence is really to make it clear in the introduction that criticism exists. Trying to make it exact makes it very hard indeed to make it short. Write it under criticisms. The problem with your suggestion 'critics argue..lessen' is first whether they do, and secondly whether this is a sensible and widely held criticism which makes it worthy of mention in the introduction. Also, as said before, the supreme court held it did not 'lessen', which would inevitably mean you would ahve to mention that in the introduction as well. Sandpiper 21:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

If the point of the act is to give the nuclear industry indemmity at the expensive of the public then of course the public isn't "adequately" protected, they are in fact less protected than they would be absent this act, right? "Adequately" implies that act was actually trying to protect the public would would be an incorrect assumption, right? The summary of criticism should succinctly connote just how fundamental the criticism is, right? zen master T 21:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

ah, no. The whole point of the act is to give companies limited indemnity without harming the public at all. The magic of insurance, what this act really does (also mentioned into the intro) is create a mutual insurance company funded by all the reactor companies. It makes all the companies liable for a failure by any one of them. Sandpiper 22:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm asking for protection again

Here we go again. We've now had 8 reverts in the last 24 hours. We're heading for a slew of 3RR violations. I'm going to ask for protection again. Both Sandpiper and I are lost because we have too much going on here. Let's slow down again. --Woohookitty 21:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, sorry, I didn't realize there were so many editors that were so keen on presenting the critic's view the old way. Let's try to resolve the disagreement(s) on the talk page. zen master T 21:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Zen, you are entering a hornet's nest here. I'd strongly suggest trying to read some of the archives or ask Sandpiper for help in getting up to speed, since he's relatively new to this too and just got up to speed himself. Otherwise, you are going to get lost and not necessarily add to the discussion. I mean we're in our 2nd mediation. We've literally had 4 protections. We have 500K of chat. Just a bit complex. :) --Woohookitty 21:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Summarizing critics' views shouldn't be this contentious. If people think my change is too long we can shorten it, but "does not adequately protect the public" seems to errantly imply that act was trying to protect the public, which is false right? zen master T 21:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

some pages I know, you post a suggestion and come back a week later to see if anyones noticed, and no one has. Needs a day here for everyone to catch up (this is a world spanning debate, I think. Wonderful to get foreigners involved in things they had never heard of before). And before I get another edit conflict, I think it would be correct to say the secondary aim of the act was to protect the public. That was a stated aim, and once again was confirrmed by the supreme court both in intent and effect. read the article, its has quite a few facts.Sandpiper 21:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes zen, you really have to get up to speed here. Not being critical, but as a new person to this mess, you have no idea what we've been debating for the last 6 months. Hell, I barely know and I've been involved since (almost) day 1. Read the archives and get up to speed. --Woohookitty 21:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Zen, no, it's not false -- and in any case, it's not a valid argument with which to support the wording you seek. Protecting the public was one of the two main stated reasons Congress enacted the thing in the first place, those being to enable the creation of a private nuclear power industry, and to protect the public by creating a pool of funds from which damages would be paid in the event of a nuclear accident. Some critics argue that it does NOT protect the public, but that's only one view. The creators of the law clearly disagreed, so we can't argue that "does not adequately protect the public" is wrong because it's "false." That's passing judgment on a point of dispute, which WP:NPOV compels us not to do. ·Katefan0/mrp 21:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Back to my protection request. The complication is that we have 3 people who patrol the protection page and they include me and kate. *sigh* We just need a cool down period. I don't want anyone to violate the 3RR...yes...even Ben. I'd rather not have to complicate things any more than they are. --Woohookitty 21:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Do critics generally agree the public has been protected by the act? If I am the only one then I digress. It would be accurate to state that because of the act the public is forced to seek redress and compensation for damages over a certain amount from the government, not from the industry, right? Would it also be accurate to state that the normal right to be able to civily sue the industry that harmed someone in an accident was removed by this act for the nuclear industry, right? zen master T 21:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The intro already covers all these points. · Katefan0/mrp 22:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Not as comming from critics and not directly nor explicitly. If because of this act the public has less rights and avenues for recourse in the advent of an accident we should state that directly, rather than watering it down with "does not adequately protect the public". What does "Instead of problematic resuls from claims in state cours..." mean anyway? Who exactly is alleging whatever is being alleged is "problematic"? That seems like the pro industry position to me (a caveat should be added for NPOV). zen master T 22:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm still catching up on all the comments, but I based "problematic" on the Supreme Court's statement "While in theory no legal limit would be placed on liability, as a practical matter the public would be less assured of obtaining compensation than under Price-Anderson. Establishing liability would depend in each case on state tort law and procedures, and these might or might not provide for no-fault liability." Simesa 23:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It would not be right to state 'that because of the act the public is forced to seek redress ...from the government'. The first $10 billion of any claim comes from the companies, all of them. The bill for each is low enough that there is a good likelihood they will be able to pay. In the absence of the act, just one company would be liable, and I doubt it would have anything like that amount of money. Anyone want to buy a second-hand nuclear plant just after a major accident? So the amount available for payouts is bigger because of the act than otherwise. It is not correct that the normal right to sue has been removed. In fact, what has been removed is the companies right to defend itself in court against any actions. Then, the time limits in which to sue have been extended, and (good or bad, I don't know), all actions are moved to a federal court rather than a local one. The changes to the legal process all make it easier, not harder. The issue is that some people have claimed the act makes these things worse (or so I am told, I havn't checked that bit yet)Sandpiper 22:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

If a specific company X has an accident does the public have the right to sue that company for damages and blame? The right to compensation is not equal to the right to sue. Making it easier for the public to recive the first $10 billion in damages was given at the expensive of the public losing the right they would normally have of being able to sue a specific company in state court, right? Feel free to argue moving the cases to federal is better in some way but in my interpretation critics disagree with you on that. Your argument seems very pro nuclear industry to me, shouldn't we let critics characterize their own argument? How about "critics argue it was wrong to force any future damage lawsuits out of state court and into federal court" or similar, would you have a problem with that, and if so, what is it? zen master T 23:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Because there are many criticisms. If you outline one, you must outline them all to be fair. Instead, it's best to stick to something inclusive -- critics assert that it doesn't adequately protect the public. Boom. Then outline them in more detail later. As I've said. · Katefan0/mrp 23:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The outline in the article currently understates or tangenticizes the critics' views. Critics assert the act was "wrong" not that it was merely "inadequate". Boom. zen master T 23:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree on all points. · Katefan0/mrp 23:24, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible some critics argue the act was/is "wrong"? Don't critics also argue it was wrong for the nuclear industry to get a big government subsidy which allows it to unfairly compete against other sources of energy, such as renewable energy? zen master T 23:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It is perfectly possible that critics argue all sorts of things, including the most common paint colour for nuclear reactors. The thing is first, produce some specific examples with a strong public profile, and second, put them sensibly into a section which explains what each one is upset about. Sandpiper 00:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Critics do argue all sorts of things, which doubles the importance of not trivializing or downplaying their many allegations. Why is the critics' view seemingly being written/interpreted from a pro nuclear industry standpoint in this article? zen master T 22:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Yay us

Just created archive #8. We are at 614K and 160+ headings of archived talk. And we've settled basically zip since this started. --Woohookitty 21:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I take this seriously, but I laughed my head off when I read this one.Sandpiper

I do too but I felt like lightening up the mood a bit would be helpful. Plus. It's damn funny. :-D That is the amazing thing about all of this. If you look back at archives 1 and 2, it's basically the same issues we're dealing with now. --Woohookitty 22:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought it might be. Serious, concerned people. Sandpiper 22:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

For different reasons though. Simesa, katefan and I just want the article to be NPOV. Ben is more concerned about the article sounding too pro-nuclear. Like I've said all along, we don't have a "side" really. Personally, I agree with Ben's views on nuclear and the Act. But the article needs to be NPOV on the point even if I'm personally not. Anyway. I'm wingeing on. --Woohookitty 22:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I also noted Ben's nearly pro-nuclear comments from another page, which I posted above. But the more times I keep summarising what the act actually does, the more it seems rather a clever legal device to make the companies pay. So in fairness it is quite hard to write it as doing any of the things claimed against it. Except, as I have said above (well, everything has been said above) the presupposition by congress that nuclear is a good thing. Sandpiper 22:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

come on ben!

Ben, you wrote:

while exposing the public to the substantial risk of a catastrophic nuclear incident. Instead of the fair outcome in state courts, the Act substitutes a preferential resolution process and establishes

If it wasn't for the fact that some people might construe it as an insult, and insulting people is considered bad form her, but under the clear understanding that it isn't meant to be insulting, come on Ben, you re just taking the piss! Sandpiper 22:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe that particular conjugation is British. The founding fathers said that jury's should decide these things, and that the states should have the right to set up laws - for example to cover liability, and finally - the outcome of states courts is not "Problematic" except in that a jury's view of the just compensation for a lifetime of medical maladies * the number of persons affected could be unaffordable, but the decision is - by definition - fair. 12 people decide what they would have to be paid in order to come out even on the deal - you irradiate me, but i get a million dollars. Most people would prefer their health to money in an even trade. - The result of Price is preferential to basic equity - (again 12 ordinary people placing a value on life). The system of 12, while often criticised is a large part of the quality of life in the US. Benjamin Gatti 22:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall any mention that PA removes juries. If it does, why don't you propose explaining this where it properly fits in the main article. Initially, what I read says you sue someone as normal, but the company is not allowed to fully defend itself. It seemed implicit that if the state said this process needs a jury, then that is what it would get. Then cases were transferred to federal courts. Is that where the jury disappears? I am not personally convinced that a decision arrived at by a specific process is necessarily fair, even if it follows the rules precisely. In any event, the supreme court (yes I know...) claimed it was fair redress, constitutionally speaking. You know, this is just the sort of argument we get here...people complaining about the EU imposing centralised laws on countries. I dont think I understood your phrase 'the result of price is preferential to basic equity' Sandpiper 23:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

(Answering Open Issues) - My understanding is that:

1. In Federal Courts the amount of judgement is set by a judge - in state court it is set by a jury. Juries are more empathetic to the subjective award, a judge may tend towards calculating (ie Your son died, since he had not yet gone to college he has no special skills, therefore his value is 30 years time average income of 35K = 1Million) A Jury might say you'd have to pay me a hell of a lot more than a million dollars before I'd take it in an even trade for my sons life - more like 500 Million or so.
2. There is no punitive damages permitted. Many judgements are elevated by the jury deciding to prevent such behavior by punishing those responsible - over and above damages.
3. My definition of fair is closer to a jury's definition - the value in a voluntary trade.
4. The concept of equity means to compensate the victim so completely that they are placed in a similar state - not entirely possible when death is involved, but the jury award tried to approximate the value of a life. A Judge may approximate the earnings in a lifetime, and they are not the same.
5. The effect of price is a preferential outcome for the nuclear reactor, and a less than prejudiced outcome for the victim.

Benjamin Gatti 22:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Observations (not numbered to specifically refer to numbers above)

1. Legally speaking, I infer, punitive damages are intended to punish the accused, not compensate the victims? But the victim gets to keep them? Actually, I find that quite an odd arrangement which I would not find just. They ought to go to the nation, spent on hospitals, whatever. Otherwise a jury might get confused as to the exact reason it was demanding damages.
2. In this case, there is specific legislation designed to punish nuclear operators failing in their duty of care etc. Presumably this should supercede individual action in courts? So the issue of punishment of the company is separated from the issue of compensating victims, and they will have to face it in a different trial. How does having many trials for damages allow a 'just' level of punitive damages to be set for what is essentially one incident?
3. yes, I appreciate that most families would not take any price for someone's life in an agreed trade. However, that is not really the issue at law, and never has been. Whatever damages are awarded by a jury, I think this exact same argument would still apply. Society is quite prepared to let someone die for lack of $100,000 for medical treatment: in general, compensation is based on the value of an average citizen, not on the special value of a citizen to his loved ones.
4. The true value of money decreases the more of it you have, so the real value to the recipient of being given $200 million instead of $1 million is very much less than, say, having your mortgage paid off and a modest pension, if your husband is killed.

It would be nice to have a legal reference discussing equity in compensation claims Sandpiper 10:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

PS. I agree the word 'problematic' was not helpfull as it is not clear what it means. But that was a counter to some of your own suggestions..... Sandpiper 23:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms, things to do?

I was looking at the criticisms section. the green scissors quote suggests that An NRC commissioned study estimated that damages from a severe nuclear accident could cost as much as $560 billion in 2000 dollars. Do we have a reference for their source, or alternatives? The article does not mention anywhere that $10 billion is an unrealistic bill, so should it mention that a figure of $560 billion has been suggested? Anyone got information on what level of bill has what suggested probability of occurrence?

Now, I think I also read something that said any insurance fund on this scale is simply specious. Rather than collecting $1000 billion in a bank account, it is far better for government to use the money in everyday business (it's called reducing taxes), and raise some more if ever they have to pay out. The argument was that sums on this scale are so big that everyone pays one way or another, and we might just as well put it off until the day.

no proper explanation yet that national facilities are self insured to the same sum. better explanation of categories. definition of military exclusions and who carries their bill?. research reactors, there is a list.(this is maybe 'factual' info and belongs in background)

Green scissors mention waste disposal: I think this is essentially irrelevant to the strict issue of PA, but it might fit in a general discussion of whether nuclear power is inherently unsafe (but endorsed by congress through this enabling act). I do not envisage a long article on merits, something short explaing that there are broader arguments against nuclear power. Is this already covered in a different article which should be referenced?

There is a mention of estimated subsidy costs. Is there anyone arguing that there is no subsidy? Or differing figures? As Ben mentioned above, there ought to be a mention that subsidies may be perceives as good, bad or neutral depending on the circumstances. Also better treatment of effects of subsidy on other alternative power (well more than half a sentence, anyway.)

Description of the procedure should an accident occur greater than the PA fund. I read something about reports to the president and an action plan? (This might not be a criticism, it might simply be factual background?)

More suggestions that people see as being missing? (time I went to bed) Sandpiper 02:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

OK - a response -

1. I think that my recent intro lists what is likely to happen in a serious event.
2. You can excuse the insurance and legal plan anyway you want - i want to know why it doesn't apply to other forms of energy and their similarly challenging risks? Why not insure wind investors against a hurricane for example /
3. Why not? Benjamin Gatti 23:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Not wishing to rock the boat, but amendments to the introduction

Should the introduction mention the sum of the insurance pool. I am minded that it should (just inside brackets or commas at a relevant point). Seems like an obvious, short, current omission from the the intro. yes/ No?

Suggestion for a more precise last opening sentence (just one!) which succinctly summarises criticisms more exactly.

'problematic results from claims'. I'm not happy because when i first read it I didn't really understand what it meant. I know now this is endorsed by the supreme court and quoted from there, but i think this is one we could hold back on in the intro. on the other hand, Zen seems to have leapt in with the impression that altering normal process is automatically bad, which i do not think is a correct impression for the introductory paragraph to give. Should there be something (short) explaining the act aims to make claiming easier?

Similarly, the intro implies that the pool is government funded, whereas it is entirely industry funded. This may also mislead a reader (again zen seems to have read it this way). Insert 'industry-funded' before 'pool of insurance'?

'current reactor design': is there really some prospect that insurance companies will give unlimited protection to anyone building a modern designed reactor, however safe it is in theory? If someone built a reactor which was stone-certain as safe as a coal one, would anyone be willing to insure it, and have we got that in writing? I think there should be a mention of improved technology, and that PA strictly covers new plants for life, so if it had not been renewed this would prevent new plants being built...or might not, but this needs explaining after the intro, somewhere. Is there a possibility that builders of new plants might actively oppose renewal of PA, since it shifts responsibility onto them from older, less intrinsically safe reactor designs? Can companies opt-out of PA? Sandpiper 09:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The fixed portion of the insurance is paid by Industry - the unfixed portion is paid by the taxpayer, and in either case the victim is entitled to less compensation than if he were run over by a mac truck (and received the same injuries.) Thus those burdened include - the industry (to a known and fixed amount), the taxpayer (to an unknown amount), and the victim (to a considerable degree). Yes this should be summarized, but hardly by focusing on a single fixed sum, as that is hardly the extent of the Act.

The insurance available would need to be sufficient to cover liability and punitive damages and still leave the investors whole. The question really is are their investors willing to put forward the money to build a nuclear reactor with the full value of the investment exposed to a catastrophic nuclear incident. One problem not mentioned is that investors need to understand the risk, and my understanding is that the workings of a nuclear plant are closely kept - consequentially, without information equality, there is not investment potential. Price - to some extent exists to mitigate an information imbalance (Which could well be obsolete at this time). Benjamin Gatti 16:53, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, now, you are suggesting a difference between the amount of money someone would get under PA, compared to without. Can you please explain this difference, because right now I don't see it. For starters, we have no mention of punitive damages in the article, and I have not seen any reference mention this. So what are you talking about, what are you saying is different. Any source available to read? None of the references and criticisms from the article mentioned this, which seems surprising. This may be what you meant in the first example of the mac truck. If not, please explain how our unfortunate victim would be worse off sprayed with plutonium dust at a power plant and dying, as compared to, say, arsenic dust in a chemical works and dying. As things stand, I would not see why this should be in the article, because nothing yet has explained that there is an issue. I do recall comment that if total damages exceeds $10 billion, then it would be reduced pro-rata, unless or untill congress stumped up the rest. I also have not heard what happens if the bill is exactly the $10 billion, but the companies are not obliged to pay it all for 10 years, so do people have to wait? On the face of it, if you can demonstrate a difference, then it ought to be clearly explained in the 'how it works' section (which it certainly isn't right now) I do think we ought to be trying to expand later bits like that, because I for one am not going to adjust the introduction to account for facts I know nothing about (yet?).Sandpiper 17:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

However, I would also have to take issue with whether the question is, are investors willing to take the risk. The investors told the government quite plainly they were not. The government created the act to coax them into taking part. Now, if you can demonstrate that there actually is a subsidy, (see also my question above not mentioned yet in the article about likelihood of claim sizes above ten billion, as well as this question of actual damages), then maybe we can write something factual explaining how this would arise. But this still begs the issue of whether this is a subsidy to nuclear power in general, or to the companies in particular. This is something which has been bugging me, because I do not see money changing hands. The companies are still essentially working as subcontractors for the national government, and as such are fulfilling the contract originally agreed, at the price agreed. Free market arrangement between them and the government.

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) protects nuclear operators from civil liabilities which could arise from a nuclear disaster and provides for limited taxpayer-funded compensation instead. The act coordinates private insurance policies to cover the first ~$300 million in damages, forms a cost-sharing plan to cover the next ~$10 billion, promises federal funds up to $500 million after that, and finally commits the Congress to consider additional remedy if necessary. Under the act, persons injured by nuclear events cannot sue those responsible for damages for full compensation, even in the event of willful malfeasance, instead victims can only request limited compensation from the federal government. The act insures research facilities, transportation of fissile materials and reactors constructed in the United States before 2026, but does not cover nuclear subs. The Department of Energy has called it a "Subsidy for nuclear investor's" while environmental, consumer and taxpayer watchdog groups have condemned the act as welfare for the rich and because it exposes the public while protecting the nuclear industry.

This was an intro I submitted - it includes a full discussion of the events. Benjamin Gatti 16:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

There are a couple of POV words in there (I really don't like using willful), but my only big objection to this is that I've never been convinced that we need to cram this all into one paragraph. Why can't the intro be something simple that says the name of the act, that it's an act of congress and that it sets up a compensation system in the case of a nuclear disaster? We can then integrate the rest into the How It Works section. The intro is supposed to be that, i.e. a quick summary of the act and what it does. It's supposed to be sort of a teaser, not something so specific. If anything else, it'd be easier to agree to since it'd be shorter. At least then, we'd have a least one part of this article completely agreed to. And then we can move on to the specifics. Thoughts? --Woohookitty 17:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

First point, I don't recall where the $500 million comes from. There was such a fund once upon a time, but I had assumed it had been abolished when the extra reactor contributions were introduced. No?

Second, this also totally does not explain in what way they can not claim for 'full' damages, and I have no information how this might be (as I just said above). I am not saying it should explain exactly here, because it is a summary, but the facts have to be in the article somewhere. And I still haven't come across what the DOE actually said.Sandpiper 18:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I subscribe to the executive summary theory. The first paragraph should be a complete summary. (Not a half-grass attempt to rename the subject three times at the expense of useful information) We should not strive toward the kind of barnyard redundancy Bush has made famous. Benjamin Gatti 18:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem I have with summaries of this type is that people will lose interest and stop reading the article. That's the whole point of a teaser and it's why most articles on here use that format. --Woohookitty 18:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I susbscribe to the 30 second explanation of the topic summary. Just enough for someone to know whether this is a page they are interested in. Ben, nice to see you are about, but I notice you havent answered any of my questions, nor some similar pithy ones I posted a few days ago. As of at the moment, we still do not have grounds to include half the stuff you are interested in. Sandpiper

Could you point them out - i'll look ... Benjamin Gatti 22:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

(Tying up unanswered question for Sandpiper)

It is a subsidy because it lowers the cost of insurance by holding the taxpayers liable. This is an avoided cost subsidy of approx 3 Billion annually. The DOE has called it a subsidy. And yes it subsidizes risk more than dollars, but investments deal in both risk and reward. by eliminating risks for one industry without equally reducing the risk of competing industries - private interests are given a market advantage by government fiat at significant cost to the public because they give up the right to hold bad actors financially accountable. Benjamin Gatti 21:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

well, you have me half convinced. There is still the very big problem of quantifying this subsidy. It would appear that quantification is the heart of the problem. If it was proven small, then industry would not be bellyaching. If it was proven huge, then no one would be running nuclear power. If it was proven $5-10 billion, then everyone would be happy, because that is the level which the current scheme provides. But since it is not proven, both sides complain about it. But still, in the final analysis, congress has decided that it is in the national good to take on the final risk. This is in fact identical to the position over 'catastrophic' pollution damages from other industries, which are also not expected to obtain insurance coverage for global warming, acid rain eroding buildings, etc. etc.

Now, what about the $500 million, is that stil in the act or was it dropped? Sandpiper 10:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

My personal goal for the main paragraph would be for it to be 4-6 sentences, ending with EXACTLY 1 SENTENCE of what supporters have said about it, and EXACTLY 1 SENTENCE of comments from opponents. Anything regarding numbers should go in "How it works"; more criticisms should go in the criticisms section. Ral315 (talk) 22:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) is an act of the Congress of the United States.

So how does renaming the subject twice in the first sentence help people understand whether or not they are interested? This Sentence conveys absolutely nothing which people could find interesting - it isn't a tease - it is obligatory detail - and it hardly opens the act with aplomb. Benjamin Gatti 22:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Obligatory detail. Exactly. Intro is supposed to quickly summarize the article NOT get into specifics. Specifics are for the main body. --Woohookitty 00:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

How absurd - to suggest that a introductory sentence should get itself tripped up in parentheticals and asides. The fact that Price applies to the United States is meaningless by itself. The first Sentence must stand alone as a meaningful statement using the topic as its subject. Anything less is an edit war from my corner. Benjamin Gatti 01:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't suggest threatening an edit war. --Woohookitty 01:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The most important thing about this act is something which a number of people seem to have presumed, that it is an american act made by the the official government of America, Congress. I even once altered united states to a link, so people who got here by some mischance could find out more about the country. Anyone discovering it has nothing whatever to do with them can then totally ignore it.Sandpiper 09:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Reverts of December 5

The revert war that happened on December 5 cannot happen again. I know there's still some animosity, but as I recall, when I took over, everyone agreed to a 1 revert rule. Zen-master, Benjamin Gatti, Katefan0, and Woohookitty all have broken it, from my preliminary looks at the history. If you're going to continue to edit war, there's no reason for me to mediate. I would really like to see a consensus of sorts soon. Again, remember that when the page gets unprotected, 1RR still applies. Ral315 (talk) 22:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Ral, just to point out that many of the edits on Dec 5 where unrelated and accidental. And I object to the continues use of the term "consensus" to describe any random version unless there really is a formal vote to back it up - it dilutes the term mercilessly. Both Zen and Sandpiper have changed or expressed an interest in changing the intro, with me, that makes 3 to Mike, Kate, and Simesa. I'm not sure where you fit in, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus for the intro, and we should stop pretending. I suggest the claim of consensus where there is none is both disruptive and deceptive. Our readers deserve better. Benjamin Gatti 23:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I never said that the current intro is, or isn't, consensus. I'm merely pointing out that it's been nearly two months since I took this mediation, and I'd like to see a consensus be agreed on soon. Ral315 (talk) 23:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I will concede to an intro which is fully factual, fully representative, and describes the act without dilution, or intentional omission of facts which sources have identified as key. If you are here to help us get to that point, than I think this effort can be successful. As Sandpiper has recently pointed out - the current intro includes factual errors and generalizations which are not discretely true. Now we either get busy fixing that sort of thing or this is an exercise in circularity. I would be so bold as to make a suggestion, that as a mediator If I were you, I would either roll my sleeves up, find a principle and insist on it, or I wouldn't bother. As a participant, I have no idea what your standards and principles are - except 1RR - which is just a slower form of revert war. As several have pointed out, this is a largely intractable issue, and I believe that it tests the wiki guidelines to the limit. The issue is speculative, and almost religious in the sense that as it is currently written, it requires an act of faith as to whether or not a catastrophic nuclear incident is a fiction or a legitimate risk. Benjamin Gatti 00:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

My opinion is that we don't need to worry about whether a catastrophic nuclear incident is a fiction or a legitimate risk. We need to worry about whether we're telling the story correctly. Ral315 (talk) 02:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd agree to that. --Woohookitty 02:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Would you agree that "... because of the perceived risks from nuclear power." goes farther than telling the story and in fact projects an opinion quantifying a risk which the Supreme Court described as "substantial." Benjamin Gatti 03:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

In the interests of accuracy I would observe that my position more accurately supports the reverts made by Kate and woohikity than alterations inserted by Zen or Ben. I would have reverted them myself, expressly to make a point of my own views (reverting can be useful), except that I was too busy trying to talk to Zen about it, and the others got there first. Also, that a careful reading of the supreme court judgement does not support a view that the risk is substantial, rather that it is 'remote'. 'perceived' risks rather goes to the heart of the debate. It is exactly peoples differing perceptions of the risks (not just radiological) which is at issue. But yes, so far, we have very little actual included information about professional opinions on the level of risk, so it is something of an 'act of faith'.

Ben, I don't see any point in re-listing the points I asked you to comment on, as you suggested: not least because the position above where you asked for them to be re-listed was just below a couple of them. Sandpiper 09:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Misstatement of critics' views

The intro and article currently do a very insufficient job of describing the critics' views to the point of severe misstatement or understatement. First, the phrase "...does not adequately protect the public" errantly implies the act was trying to protect the public which I interpret to be in opposition of the actual critics' and public's position. Secondly, critics are directly arguing it was wrong for the act to force all civil law claims, in the event of an accident, out of state court and into federal court -- the public's right to seek civil law recourse (to be able to sue) and seek blame against the specific company that had the accident has been severely lessened if not eliminated, we should state this fact directly. Some editors have argued here on the talk page that this act is "better" as it makes it easier for victims to get compensation (up to a point), but that sounds like the pro nuclear industry view and it obfuscates the fact that victims overall would likely get orders of magnitude less money and be unable to seek redress in state court against the specific company that had the accident, even for criminal behavior or incompetence that led to any accident. Thirdly, this act has the effect of making nuclear power seem more economical than other forms of energy, such as renewable energy, which is wrong, we need a level playing field that uses a fair assesment of whether an energy source is economically feasible, not to mention whether an energy source is sound given infinite liability (government shouldn't obfuscate nor be burdened with the nuclear industry's basically infinite liability). zen master T 17:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

First objection: The Act has always been intended to protect the public, but you might be able to find a cite on the public's position. So propose a final sentence, but leave the federal agency out of it as all the EIA said was that PAA was a subsidy.

Second objection: That's already in Criticisms, and belongs there as it is a moot point (until someone files a lawsuit). As I read it, the public's right to sue individual companies for radiological incidents is in fact gone under PAA, although under the Tucker Act the federal government can still be sued. The onus of taking action against individual companies is on the federal government, by levying fines, filing criminal charges, revoking licenses, etc.

Third objection: This hardly seems like something for the Intro. I'd put a mention of it in Criticisms (as is presently there) and refer to Nuclear power's "Economy" section - which already has a paragraph that reads:

A UK Royal Academy of Engineering report in 2004 looked at electricity generation costs from new plants in the UK. In particular it aimed to develop "a robust approach to compare directly the costs of intermittent generation with more dependable sources of generation". This meant adding the cost of standby capacity for wind, as well as carbon values up to £30 (€45.44) per tonne CO2 for coal and gas. Wind power was calculated to be more than twice as expensive as nuclear power. Without a carbon tax, the cost of production through coal, nuclear and gas ranged £0.22-0.26/kWh and coal gasification was £0.32/kWh. When carbon tax was added (up to £0.25) coal came close to onshore wind (including back-up power) at £0.54/kWh - offshore wind is £0.72/kWh. Nuclear power remained at £0.23/kWh either way, as it produces negligible amounts of CO2. Nuclear figures included decommissioning costs. .

Simesa 20:05, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The costs of intermittency are skewed by adaptation. In essence, by promoting a prix fixe market for residential energy (that is the price of a KWh is the same at peak and trough demand) has encouraged building schemes which fully exploit the artificial subsidy of a rigged market. Peak energy is 10 times the cost, but 1 times the price, consequentially, it is cost-effective to build for minimal energy use rather than to build for minimum energy cost. The old adobe hut has a great deal of thermal mass, and would cost far less to heat or cool in a rational market, but is more expensive in a prix fixe market. The reintroduction of intermittent energy - along with a rational market for same - would encourage adaptive building design, and could easily accommodate daily requirements with minimal waste or cost. Benjamin Gatti 02:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Answer number two, inserted after edit conflict!

Well hi. To address your comments Zen: First the introduction does not attempt to state the critic’s views, nor should it. It merely states that there are critics.

Actualy the stated aim of the act was to protect the public, and the supreme court agreed not only that this was what congress had been trying to do, but also that it had done so. Yes, this may well be contrary to what the critics are saying, but if they were agreeing with what congress had stated, then they wouldn’t be critics. I have not seen any claim by critics that the act was not trying to protect the public, only claims that it did not.

I have also yet to see any claim, certainly no explanation of a claim, that ‘critics’ argue that transferring cases to a federal court harmed the public. Can you give me a link to some? I could not put into the article what no one has shown me actually exists. I also asked Ben in what way, exactly, people’s ability to seek redress has been weakened. I am still waiting for an answer. Can you explain how, exactly, they are worse off? It is quite plain that their right to seek redress has not been eliminated…again, the supreme court felt it was much the same.

I really don’t care whose view it is that it is easier to get redress. The facts I have read so far about how the act work say that it is easier. The companies are not permitted to defend cases brought against them, and time limits to start an action have been extended. Please explain what has been changed which makes things harder for claimants. How and why would they get ‘orders of magnitude less money’? What does which court hears the case have to do with it? It has been said before, if anyone commits a criminal act, PA does not give them any protection against criminal charges. How would cases come out differently if criminal action was shown by the company, assuming no PA? Unless someone can explain how that might come about, it can hardly go into the article.

It is Ben’s view that nuclear power will be a very important energy source in the future. (Ben, please correct if this is wrong). That there will be no alternative to using it, so we had better become accustomed to the risks and learn to live with them. I have posted comments above asking for more information about in what way some people consider PA to be a subsidy. If we can get a sensible explanation of this, then it can go in the article. Can you provide some? But not in the introduction, which needs to be short. Do you have a source stating we need a level playing field with regard to energy, and why? What about the massive subsidy currently given to fossil fueled power stations, since they are not obliged to carry insurance against disasters (noteably global warming). Who is going to pick up the tab for that, and how is the situation different to the nuclear industry? Will US car owners pay up if London gets flooded due to melting polar ice? Similarly, what about the risk from letting off atomic weapons, chemical pollution, car pollution, carcinogens used by the building industry, declaring war on non-hostile foreign countries? There are many many things where government carries the bill. These would also need to be mentioned. Sandpiper 20:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe the critics are arguing the stated aim and actual aim of the act are in disagreement. Critics would disagree with your determination of "the facts" as you have read them so far. Getting accustomed to the risks of nuclear power is something that may (I repeat may) be worthwhile, but that does not mean we have to eliminate or severely lessen the public's right to seek civil law redress in state court. The nuclear power industry should also get use to facing potentially infinite liabiity. Perhaps nuclear power should be a non-profit or governemnt run activity since the risk of accidents caused by profit motive, rather than safety, considerations is too high. zen master T 20:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I don’t really recall any ‘critics’ talking about PA’s stated aim re the public, only that they think the finished act disadvantages the public. So, information needed… And again, in what way does it reduce the publics redress? It is not contested that the process is different: how does it disadvantage claimants?

Now, I don’t think the industry needs to get used to facing liabilty, but really I think that is irrelevant. These people were asked by the government to build these reactors: it is already the government’s decision. The industry was perfectly happy not to build nuclear plants. Electricity has to be generated somehow, and I imagine exactly the same companies would have built different kinds of plant if that was what was wanted. Now, where is there a reference saying how there is a likelihood of accidents as a consequence of PA? PA will not help a company which has a big smouldering hole where it used to have a reactor. (or can a plant operator sue itself to get compensation for the massive damage to its own plant after such an accident? As far as I can see, this would be an uninsured loss) Sandpiper 20:50, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not the governments business to tell peoplehow to create electricty - it should encourage the generation of energy and provide an open, honest, transparent, and fair market for participation. In the meantime, every tom dick and hairy with a cockamany scheme to generate electricty wants the government to favor their particular scheme. Under equal protection, the government is disallowed from choosing winners (and ought to comply). Benjamin Gatti 21:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

"disadvantages the public" is much stronger than "does not adquately protect the public", we should at least use the former. Benjamin Gatti has a list in a section above that explains why the nuclear industry would prefer to face civil claims in federal court rather than state court, basically in federal the judge sets damages, in state court juries do, juries also are allowed to consider more than just "lifetime earnings" for the value of a human life and can award punitive damages to punish the at fault company for gross negligence etc. If nuclear power is so risky to the point where the industry requires PA to function then perhaps society should take a step back and instead invest tax dollars in much safer and more sound alternative energy sources. But the key point here is we shouldn't be debating the merits of the act, we should be trying to state what the critics believe. If the critics believe/argue it was wrong to disadvantage the public by eliminating or lessening state court civil law redress then we should say it directly like that. zen master T 21:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

To start at the end, i don't think anyone is saying we should not state accurately what the critics believe. But a number of people feel it is not appropriate that this should be in the introduction. I said before, one sentence listing that people object. If you have suggestions for additions/expansions/changes/ to what is currently the criticisms section, then please post them here.

'disadvantages the public' is an odd turn of phrase as people will not understand quite what it means, and it would imply the issue is wider than simple compensation, but I don't necessarily see a problem with that.

I havn't read Bens list yet, I look forward to it with interest. However, it would have to be born in mind that any 'punitive' damages would come out of the pockets of exactly the same people who are receiving them. Either taxpayers supporting a bailout fund (if this was bigger than $10 billion), or from earnings of generator companies (which would mean higher electricity prices, so again from everyone). This is a closed circle: generators cannot be permitted to go out of business, or there is no electricity. Government has chosen to create nuclear generators, so it presumably sees no point in adding to its own costs in the event of an accident. There is also the point that a whole raft of safety regulations and a system of fines exists especially for the nuclear industry, which does not apply to coal burning etc. So it would arguably be 'double jeopardy' (a suitable american phrase?) to punish the generators twice. Sandpiper 09:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

RfArb

Due to the indefensible Protection I have requested Arbcomm to review the cause for Protection. Comments at: Requests_for_arbitration#Price-Anderson_Nuclear_Industries_Indemnity_Act

Er, okay. But as I've said to you before, the Arbitration Committee does not hear content disputes. Expect it to be summarily dismissed. If you take issue with an article's protection, the correct place to complain about it is at WP:RFP or WP:AN/I. · Katefan0/mrp 22:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Number 1 indefensible? We had a massive revert war going on. #2 they don't take content disputes. We've told you that in the past. --Woohookitty 22:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Benjamin Gatti, I think it would make more sense to file an RfA over the article's current lack of neutrality and accuracy (if they are an applicable thing for arbcom to decide), instead of over "unjust protection". zen master T 23:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Not a bad idea, but they don't adjudicate content disputes. --Woohookitty 00:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Assuming Mike is correct - (in that Arbcom doesn't adjudicate content disputes) - the question arises as to whether or not they will dictate content by proxy. Page protection for the purpose of dictating content is the dictation of content by administration - a summary dismissal is a decision, and if made in support of censorship would establish as precedent that the ArbComm does in fact exercise its authority in determining matters of content, does tolerate and engage in censorship, and operates in contrast to the motto of wikipedia, which by definition is a document edited by its readers. Benjamin Gatti 00:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point about supporting protection is tacit if not complicit support of content/censorship (a certain version of an article), though I suspect the arbcom will simply say they "don't get involved in content disputes". zen master T 01:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not asking them to change the content. I'm asking whether or not they will permit administrators to dictate content (and thereby censor community-based editing) by the raw exercise of power. To be (a wiki) or not to be... that is the question. (borrowed). Benjamin Gatti 02:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I agree that would or does indeed set a bad precedent. Perhaps at the same time we should create a list of NPOV violations (in our interpretation)? For example, things like "Instead of problematic results from claims in state courts..." and the misstating of understating of critics' arguments, what do you think? We should also seek out other editors to help us change this article to be neutral and accurate. zen master T 02:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

RfAr is not the place for any of this. I'm sure you made a great impression on the Arbcom. Btw, zen, your probation is about to be extended. Once it is, I'd tread carefully here if I were you. Any disruptive edits can send you to ANI where you could be blocked from here. Not a threat. More of a FYI. --Woohookitty 08:33, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That is most certainly a threat on your part but it seems increasingly hallow, I am still waiting for you/someone to point out specific edits that you take issue with instead of the nebulous "disruptive". zen master T 10:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I've told you. It was the revert of the consensus that you did. --Woohookitty 11:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

1 revert does not violate any policy and your definition of "consensus" is inaccurate, at least two editors disagree with you and interpret this article to be violating various wikipedia presentation neutrality policies. zen master T 11:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

In the end, zen, it doesn't matter one or the other since probation on your was going to be extended to all articles even if I hadn't said anything. At the time the discussion was opened a week ago, Fred and Kelly had already said they wanted to extend it. --Woohookitty 11:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't mean any justification has ever been made, this is just more evidence of a pattern of censorship on certain wikipedia articles by a relentless handful of editors. It could be argued the race and intelligence article uses similar disinformation, mischaracterization and psychological effect of language techniques as this article does. It doesn't make sense that an editor claims to be a "flamming liberal" yet supports an act passed by Congress that is basically a giant government subsidy of the nuclear industry and also severely limits the public's right to sue the specific company responsible in the event of a nuclear accident. How can "Instead of problematic results from claims in state courts..." ever be considered a neutral presentation? To be neutral Misplaced Pages articles shouldn't simply regurgitate apparent nuclear industry marketing bullet points. zen master T 11:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)