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Mathematics was one of the Mathematics good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result January 22, 2006 Good article nominee Listed May 19, 2006 Peer review Reviewed April 3, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 8, 2007 Good article reassessment Kept August 3, 2009 Good article reassessment Delisted This article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of May 23, 2006. Current status: Delisted good article

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Template:WP1.0 Mathematics Top‑priority This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mathematics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of mathematics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MathematicsWikipedia:WikiProject MathematicsTemplate:WikiProject Mathematicsmathematics Top This article has been rated as Top-priority on the project's priority scale.

Awards and Prizes in Mathematics

This should include the William Lowell Putnam Mathematical Competition for college undergraduates in the US and Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.82.218.97 (talk • contribs)

Einstein quote: not worth of an encyclopedia

Despite all his accomplishments, Einstein is not a mathemathecian or a philosopher of mathematics. Yet, we find one of his quote in the introduction of this article, which discusses about what are mathematics. To have a quote of Einstein in this particular article is a false appeal to an expert testimony, something an encyclopedia like wikipedia should avoid. 142.85.5.20 (talk) 01:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Although not a mathematician, Einstein was certainly a scientist, and made extensive use of mathematics in his work, so his views on the relationship between mathematics and science are relevant in the "Mathematics as science" section of the article. Other viewpoints are also presented. Misplaced Pages does not say that Einstein was right; it only quotes him as representative of a significant point of view. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Not a mathematician? Who sez? Einstein was often referred to as a mathematician in his lifetime. Someone like Einstein is just as much a mathematician as Edward Witten. I notice the article on Stephen Hawking, Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, has resolved the discipline issue by referring to him as physicist and "applied mathematician" in the infobox (Hawking, interestingly, is more often described as a mathematician in British publications (usually in conjunction with "physicist") than American, where he is almost always described as a physicist, although even publications like the New York Times will occasionally refer to him as a mathematician) --C S (talk) 18:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Japanese interlink

Japanese interlink is not in alphabetic order: currently it lies between ne and no. Please change this. 82.52.179.192 (talk) 09:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Mathematics is the study of space?

My revision of the first paragraph was reverted, so I'm bringing it here for discussion. If anyone wants to point me to prior conversations I should be aware of, I'll try to bring myself up to speed. My proposed revision:

Mathematics is the science of applying mathematical techniques to the study of quantity, structure, space, and change.

Rationale: First, as the "tics" suffix of the word "Mathematics" indicates, it is a practice and methodology rather than a study, and indeed, it is. Second, although mathematical techniques are fantastic for exploring concepts such as stquantity, structure, space, or change, it is a mistake to conflate the tool with the concept itself. If we're going to say that mathematics is the study of everything to which mathematical techniques can be applied, then we just have to say that mathematics is the study of everything (like the physicists do

D) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pooryorick (talk • contribs) 08:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

You should not use a form of a word (mathematical) in the definition of a word (mathematics). Rick Norwood (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, this is actually done all the time, and is in fact often the only sane approach to defining words that derive from adjectives, as "mathematics" does. For example, "heuristics" is defined as "the study or practice of heuristic procedure". Such definitions follow the pattern "of or relating to...". "heuristics" also illustrates what I am saying about words that end in "tics", which are defined as the "art", "science", "practice", "process", and, secondarily, the study of the practice itself. The dead giveaway is the "s" at the end, which differentiates the latin suffix "ic" (pertaining to the nature of) and "ics" (used to form names of arts and sciences). Pooryorick (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

But mathematical redirects here. Such circularity is to be avoided if at all possible. I certainly prefer the current form to your suggestion. Calling math. a 'science' is also apt to be contentious, though I myself can go either way on it. JJL (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, a few points in no particular order:

• Relating to Pooryorick's proposal:
  • As noted above, I don't think we can say in the opening sentence that mathematics is a "science". I personally have defended the claim that math is a science, and indeed an empirical science, but we can't pick one side of such a vexed question, certainly not in the lede. Farther down, we present pro and con views, as is appropriate.
  • The apparent circularity doesn't necessarily have to be a real circularity (I'll defend mathematics is the study of mathematical objects), but it's bad stylistically even if not logically.
• As to Pooryorick's criticisms of the existing text:
  • "study" includes "practice". The practice is how you study it.
  • I really don't think we can make any clear deductions from the suffix of the word. Possibly such inferences might have had force at some time in the past, but we're talking about mathematics as understood now.
• Here's perhaps the most important point: We give a "definition of mathematics" sort of pro forma, because it's expected. The fact is that there is no satisfactory definition of mathematics that exactly delineates what is mathematics from what is not. So whatever we put here is going to be kind of bogus. But it should be bogus in as inclusive a way as possible — we should not exclude from mathematics things that any significant number of mathematicians consider to be mathematics.

Summarizing: The existing opening sentence would not have been my personal ideal, but I see no strong grounds to change it at this time. --Trovatore (talk) 20:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

One last note: If Math was a separate page, it would neatly resolve the issue of whether mathematics is a science or not All th e philosophical discussion and debate about the nature of math itself could go there, and this article could, by definition, happily focus on the art of doing math. 206.53.79.172 (talk) 14:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Mathematics/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Most of this article is unreferenced. Please reference the paragraphs that don't have any inline citations. Gary King (talk) 06:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm delisting this article since these issues were not resolved. Gary King (talk) 03:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

You really think this is appropriate? The idea is to improve articles for readers, not to reference paragraphs where there is no particular advantage in so doing. The article offers 29 inline references. I think you should be more specific; I think you should make a case that something important here has gone unreferenced; and you haven't said anything helpful about what you take "these issues" to be. And you do seem keen to move ahead to a delisting of what is by any standards one of the most prominent articles in the encyclopedia on the minimum scale as far as time and engagement is concerned, at a period when many people may be more concerned about vacations than dealing with opinionated critics. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:CITE and the Misplaced Pages:Good article criteria. There is plenty of information that is uncited when it should be, including most of Etymology, History, Mathematics as science, Fields of mathematics, and Common misconceptions. The advantage in referencing information is so that it can be verified by readers when they wish to do so. Just because the article has 29 inline references does not mean that this is "enough"; for a 5 kb article, sure it might be sufficient, but it's probably not likely enough for a 100 kb article. It all depends on the specific article. And, why would I be keen in delisting articles? I don't gain anything from it; what I typically do is make a list of articles that I have put up for reassessment, and then just return to them when I have time any time after the standard seven days to make a decision; if there is a discussion going on, then I am willing to let it go on for a much longer period of time—feel free to check my hundreds of reviews, I have never had a problem with delisting an article too early when someone was working on it. Ultimately, good article status is a concern left to editors, not readers; it exists to help editors better improve articles, which is what I try to do when I perform a review. Delisting an article does not change the article at all, from a reader's perspective.

After doing some research, it looks like this article never went through a good article review to begin with. Here is where the article was listed as a good article, sans review. A lack of inline citations was then later brought up at the FAC by several editors. The article Force is a pretty good example of a well-written, well-referenced article in the science field. Gary King (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Clearly, this conversation has failed to even consider the relevant citation guideline: WP:SCG. This is unfortunate; a "review" by a single reviewer, without addressing our policy or whether the assertions in question are challenged or likely to be challenged, which is the standard set in actual policy, does not add credibility to GA. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Please just have a look at some of the better-referenced articles, such as those in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Mathematics/Wikipedia 1.0/FA-Class mathematics articles, for an idea of what I am looking for in terms of referencing. Gary King (talk) 18:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Really? I looked at Group (mathematics) and see about the same density of citation (including the silly reference to a 1908 edition of Galois for the story of his life. This source is neither contemporary nor current, and in any case unnecessary; none of the aspects likely to be challenged is mentioned). Please specify what statements seem to you challengable and unsourced - as policy requires; this vague hand-waving is no service to anybody. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Really? Compare Group_(mathematics)#History to Mathematics#History, for instance. If the Sevryuk citation is used for the entire section, then okay, at the very least please copy the citation to the end of each paragraph in the section so that this is clear (it also makes it easier to determine what reference is used for that information if the text is ever changed/moved around). "Etymology" is almost entirely unreferenced, save for the quoted text; surely this information is not common knowledge. Gary King (talk) 18:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Having consulted the OED, I conclude that you have not; whether or not the etymology of mathematics is common knowledge, it (including the reference to mathematiques) is to be found there.

On the other hand, the outline of the evolution of mathematics in the section on History (on that level of generality) is common knowledge, and to be found in any of the sources in the notes. I would think two claims likely to be challenged - and they are the two that have notes.

The idea of repeating a footnote at the end of successive paragraphs is appalling. That's dreadful style, and insisting on it does harm to Misplaced Pages. I thought that GA could be left to twiddle with its stars and give them out to each other while the rest of us got on with writing an encyclopedia; as Lotte Lenya sang: guess not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand. If you don't care about GA status, then why put so much effort into it? Ultimately, as I said earlier, this article was promoted without a review in the first place, so delisting it essentially brings it back to the status that it would have had, anyway. Gary King (talk) 19:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Because I am disappointed. Good Articles could be a useful process if it were conducted as a light process, without a self-important "review" ("I approve this" = GA; "well, actually, it could use work" = not GA; "there, it's better" = GA). This is how it was originally designed.

It could also be a useful process if an intelligent reviewer read the article, (preferably with some knowledge of the subject matter - although a detailed response by someone who didn't could also be very valuable) and saw what could actually be useful to it.

This, however, is neither: I see no sign that Gary King read this article before ten minutes ago; I don't include counting footnotes or other purely mechanical tests - especially when the test is not based on guidelines or on common sense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If you disagree with my review, you can always renominate the article at WP:GAN or bring it to WP:GAR for a reassessment, similar to Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Special relativity/1. Gary King (talk) 19:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No, I think you are being given a chance to read the section on "Summary style" in WP:SCG where this precise article is named. Let's look

Many articles on broad subjects, such as Albert Einstein, special relativity, big bang, and, indeed, physics and mathematics, have a series of sub-articles. In this case, the summary style may be used, in which a broad overview is given in the main article, and details can be found in subarticles. For citations, the summary style article says:

There is no need to repeat all the references for the subtopics in the main "Summary style" article, unless they are required to support a specific point.'

Therefore I think by asking for inline citations for each para, you are either disregarding this guideline where in terms the point at issue is dealt with, or disqualifiying yourself as a competent reviewer by lack of knowledge of the most relevant material. Please come back with a more considered approach to this article, and the task of assessing it. You are playing one-club golf with a prominent article, and you can be expected to put up a better argument than that this is a fait accompli. Where it says 'specific points', I believe that means you should be conducting this review by means of specific points, where we could have a reasonable discussion on the appropriate level of referencing for a "broad subject". You are not supposed to subvert the spirit of guidelines with such direct application. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's start with the "Mathematics as science" section, particularly the last paragraph. I don't think that most of that information is common knowledge, and so I think that they need inline citations. In addition, the page that you linked to mentions this also:

When adding material to a section in the summary style, however, it is important to ensure that the material is present in the sub-article with a reference. This also imposes additional burden in maintaining Misplaced Pages articles, as it is important to ensure that the broad article and its sub-articles remain consistent.

Some of the information found in this article's summary-style sections are not found anywhere in their respective main articles, or they are not referenced in both this article and their main article. One example is "In the 18th century, Euler was responsible for many of the notations in use today."; actually, the entire Mathematical notation article only has one reference, and that is only for a single statement. Also, weasel words should be avoided, such as "Many mathematicians feel that...", per WP:CITE#CHALLENGED. (This happens several times in the article.) Gary King (talk) 21:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

That is common knowledge - for citations on the subject, see Leonhard_Euler#Mathematical_notation, which is noticeably incomplete. (Summary style does include linked articles, but feel free to add any section header you think actually helpful to readers.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Please leave any article on my watchlist alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Numbers can be used for many things, such as change, space, velocity, and infinitely many other consepts

I believe that the difference between pure mathematics and applied mathematics should be discussed prominently in the first paragraph, since it is crucial to establishing the definition of what the article is talking about. In my opinion, units can be attached to number to lend different meanings in different concepts; for example, if we are talking about physics, a unit such as the Newton, the standard unit of force, can be attached to a number. In this case, we are discussing applied mathematics, or pure mathematics AND a unit or units.

If you are talking about two apples, or two people, you are using applied mathematics, since you are using the "apple" as a unit, and also the word "people." Pure mathematics lacks units.

Therefor, the first sentence should be revised. Applied mathematics deals with change, structure, and all that sort of thing; however, that is not part of the inherent nature of mathematics in the pure sense. This difference should be elucidated carefully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefive15 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 1 August 2009

Please take a look back in the archives before proposing any change to the opening sentence. It is the outcome of long and tedious discussions.

Fundamentally there is no agreement in the community (either the community of mathematical WP editors, or the mathematical community at large) as to what demarcates mathematics from non-mathematics. And in some sense we don't really need a definition; it's not as though mathematics is likely to be an unfamiliar word to anyone who comes here. But unfortunately we have to have something that looks like a definition, because this is the expected form. I think it's even codified somewhere in broader WP policies/guidelines.

So we give this not-terribly-meaningful collection of generalities, reminiscent of a traditional definition, sort of as a placeholder. It doesn't say much, but at least it doesn't attempt to put mathematics into a contentious ideological box.

A side comment: You seem to be focused on mathematics as the study of numbers. There's no precise definition of either mathematics or number, but nevertheless it is clear that mathematics studies much more than just numbers. Sets, functions, algebraic structures, topological spaces with or without additional structure; none of these are really well described by the word number. --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• Unassessed mathematics articles
• Top-priority mathematics articles