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This article was nominated for deletion on 28 June 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Reliable sources

In the recent AfD, Hobit stated:

• "Article could certainly stand expansion, but I'm finding 264 news articles that quote him."
• "Still think he's notable given the number of times he's showing up in RS."

I will assume good faith, and assume that some of these RSs will start turning up in the article -- which currently has only a single UC source for verification. If this doesn't happen it cannot help but eventually lead to another AfD, as what is in the article does not currently establish notability. Hrafn_Stalk 04:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Several months later, and none of these asserted news-articles/RSs have turned up in the article. I will shortly be renominating this article for deletion. Hrafn_Stalk 16:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with deletion. This is one of those articles which just say a person has a job. Besides that the importance (or lack of it) of his job is not explained. Northwestgnome (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

A copy of Rev. Moon and the Black Clergy; Taking Down the Cross (and Taking Trips) Part of an Unlikely Alliance With Local Pastors can be found here. It makes no mention of Jenkins. Hrafn_Stalk 03:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't appear to reproduce a set of bios, which is what I cited. I'm guessing they were part of a sidebar in the original article. Included persons are Jenkins, Ki Hoon Kim, A. Harold White, and T.L. Barrett Jr. The intro and Jenkins' section read:

"Moon's Chicago connections

Chicago has become an increasingly important location for Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his movement. It is the home of a large Moon- affiliated seafood arm and has become the model for how the American Clergy Leadership Conference (ACLC)--an alliance with largely black clergy--will work nationally.

The Chicago Family Church of Peace in Rogers Park, where about 100 members hold Sunday services, is the only local Unification house of worship. Although small, the congregation has had a big impact: Two previous pastors, Revs. Michael Jenkins and Ki Hoon Kim, are now national leaders of Moon's Unification movement.

RELIGIOUS LEADERS

MICHAEL JENKINS

In June 2000, after 17 years in Chicago helping lead Moon's movement here, Jenkins became the U.S. head of the Unification Church. Jenkins has an extensive network of local contacts and is now the face of the church in the U.S., based in Washington, D.C. REV."

Yes, it's stored in ProQuest with the extra "REV." on the end. this search verifies that such an article exists, and lists the word count at 3010. The partial version you found clocks in (per MS Word, which may be undercounting) at a bit under 2400. Without photo captions, the ProQuest version is over 2600 (again per MS Word). Looks like they provide an option to purchase the article direct from the Tribune for $3.95 if desired. Jclemens (talk) 03:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Might be an idea to add a note to that effect in the footnote, to prevent a repeat of this confusion. Incidentally, the ProQuest links are really unhelpful to non-subscribers, as they provide no details whatsoever on the article -- which is why I've been trying to give additional/alternative URLs where possible. Hrafn_Stalk 04:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I wish I had access to Nexis, but all my crummy local community college subscribes to are ProQuest and EBSCOHost--and EBSCOHost is definitely inferior for general news sources. I agree with the alternate link idea. Jclemens (talk) 04:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

(Oh, and neither one of them gives me access to several of the more interesting looking articles from Google News, either. Sigh.) Jclemens (talk) 04:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

No longer notable

The only defense of Jenkins' notability was that he was president of the American Unification Church, even if it was merely a title, and his role, as Hrafn fairly accurately described it, pretty much of a puppet position. If he is no longer president of the American church, is there any remaining claim of notability? I'm not aware of a single notable accomplishment. -Exucmember (talk) 08:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability is not temporary. If the UC president is roughly equivalent to a Catholic Bishop or higher, he continues to be notable indefinitely as a significant leader of a notable religious organization. Jclemens (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree. Some fourteenth century bishop who made a certain impact in his own time is less likely to have a Misplaced Pages article than a bishop who has had a comparable impact on current society. This is because fourteenth century bishop is (at present) less notable. Check any encyclopedia that has been published for many years and you will find some material that gets abbreviated and/or dropped as it fades in importance over time.

But even if that were not true, here's the reality of this article: In the AfD (I can only find one AfD; the two links above point to the same conversation as of this writing, and I was never aware that there was a second AfD), only 3 people defended Jenkins' notability, and all 3 defenses were on the basis of his being mentioned in passing in news articles and books as the current president of the American Unification Church (a figurehead position with little real power). And Ed seems to have divorced him from his only claim of notability by moving the article! -Exucmember (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Although Mike is a friend, I agree that the article is kind of, well, not one of WP's most exciting. For one thing the office of UC president is not explained here or anywhere else on WP> Steve Dufour (talk) 21:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:NTEMP isn't just my interpretation--if something was notable at one time, it doesn't cease to be notable just because it's no longer being covered in media, nor because an officeholder has departed the office that provided him notability. Jclemens (talk) 03:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:NTEMP says "it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute sufficient evidence of notability." Yet in the AfD, a mention of his name in passing in news reports during the time he was the American Unification Church president was the only basis for claiming notability. No claim was made in the AfD - or at any time in the article's history - that his actual accomplishments as president were sufficient for notability. What has he done that's notable? Does every president of the American Unification Church automatically get an article based on filling the office? Where is the article on James Baughman? Farley Jones? Phillip Burley? Gordon Ross? Lowell Martin? -Exucmember (talk) 07:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

So per my reading of NTEMP, either the current UC president isn't notable either, or Jenkins remains notable. If the office is sufficiently notable, then each officeholder would merit an article provided that V could be met... although given a pretty terse list of media references and a relatively short list, maybe a merge to List of U.S. Unification Church presidents would be a better solution? Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Often editors (and readers) prefer to see short lists as part of an article - rather than as a separate page. Instead of deleting all the UC president articles, it's better to merge them into Unification Church.

By the way, the influence (or impact) of the Unification Church or other Unification Movement organizations is still controversial. Many people, even Moon opponents, used to think the church was inordinately influential - even dangerous. This was at a time when the mind control theory had not yet been scientifically evaluated, and people thought you could be zapped with a single glance and made to join a "cult" against your will. Oddly enough, pimps and drug pushers never seem to have mastered the technique! There are also people who think the movement has too much political (or social) influence and wish it would just go away. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

How about listing the presidents in Unification Church of the United States, and also explaining what the UC president's office is? Steve Dufour (talk) 00:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

There seem to be subtantial sources for this subject. While a list of presidents might be appropriate (how many have there been?) I don't see a good reason to remove this content.   Will Beback  talk  00:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Steve, I think your suggestion is a good one, regardless of what is decided about this article. -Exucmember (talk) 04:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Did Jenkins author these articles?

http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unification/Talks/Jenkins/0-Toc-2006.htm#TableOfContents If anyone can confirm or deny this, I would appreciate it. 71.193.206.116 (talk) 23:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I trust Gary Fleisher to quote Jenkins and other church members correctly. I assume he simply copied emails that were circulated among church leaders. In any case, the writing style of the letters I glance at just now sounds like Rev. Jenkins. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree.Steve Dufour (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

What is he?

I've known Mike for about 25 years. He is a graduate of the Unification Theological Seminary and is almost always called "Rev. Jenkins" by both UC members and non-members. What he mostly does is give sermons, teach the Divine Principle, give guidence and counseling to members, make friends with ministers of other churches and invite them to UC projects. He has done the same regardless of being the president of the American UC, the pastor of the Chicago church, the director of the Midwest AFC, or now the head of the ACLC. That is why I think the opening sentence should say that he is a minister in the UC, not whatever job he has at the moment. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is that none of that sort of thing is likely to get itself recorded in RSs. What is recorded in RSs gives the appearance of a pawn moved around the chessboard by Moon into whatever position suits his purpose at the time, who occasionally 'side-swipes' fame either by meeting somebody notable or acting as the church's spokesman. This sort of distorted image is what you tend to get from basing an article on fragments of trivial coverage, rather than "significant coverage" -- and is one of the abuses that WP:NOTE is supposed to prevent. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 09:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I partly blame the negligence of the news media. I haven't found even a published article giving basic biographical information about Rev. Moon himself, much less other church members. Anyway, if WP is to have an article on Mike Jenkins I think it's fair to say he's a minister -- based on the various sources.Steve Dufour (talk) 02:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The lack of biographical information on Moon himself may be due to the infrequency that he grants interviews. As to Jenkins, it is probable that he does not project the image of somebody sufficiently influential in the wider world that the media is interested in profiling him. There are hundreds of thousands of "minister" in the US -- that is not an articulation of notability. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 04:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

• I see that a template has been added to this article proposing that this article be merged with (and I would assume merged to) Unification Church of the United States. Given the at-best-marginal notability of the topic and the lack of notability independent of UC/USA, combined with the paucity of reliable third-party coverage and the fact that now that he is no longer president he is unlikely to generate any further coverage, I support this proposal. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 06:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support, browsing through the sources included (mostly church published or wedding trivia) there is unlikely to be any prospect of notability being significantly addressed in order to warrant value in keeping this as a separate article.—Ash (talk) 06:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

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