Revision as of 04:00, 10 August 2009 editArab Cowboy (talk | contribs)1,373 editsm →Objection: typo← Previous edit | Revision as of 06:00, 10 August 2009 edit undoSupreme Deliciousness (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers22,586 edits →ObjectionNext edit → | ||
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::Ameer, , also by Zuhur, used the word "relocated" to the Jabal, which along with SD's definition of the word "relocated", emphasizes my understanding, from Zuhur's other book and all the sources that I have read, that Asmahan did not live in Syria in childhood. She lived in Lebanon and Turkey. "Moving back" has a different meaning which may be false altogether, according to these sources and SD's definition of the word. With all due respect, I will therefore restore the use of that word in recounting her marriage. --] (]) 03:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC) | ::Ameer, , also by Zuhur, used the word "relocated" to the Jabal, which along with SD's definition of the word "relocated", emphasizes my understanding, from Zuhur's other book and all the sources that I have read, that Asmahan did not live in Syria in childhood. She lived in Lebanon and Turkey. "Moving back" has a different meaning which may be false altogether, according to these sources and SD's definition of the word. With all due respect, I will therefore restore the use of that word in recounting her marriage. --] (]) 03:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC) | ||
:::Lies do not come true if you repeat them several times: The full quote from page 36 is: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut. The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape. "I felt untouched by anything truly bad," she reportedly told al-tabi`i. A child would have been unafraid of the political events concerning their elders. Until the Druze rebellion broke out, Asmahan seemed unaware of the desperate times in the world she escaped." --] (]) 06:00, 10 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
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Frustration
Well, the matter is getting harder and I'm a bit frustrated. I lost track of the issues you currently have and would like some clear cut statements of what each party wants. I don't need proofs or discussions. State one sentence in the article that you want changed then place your suggested change. I'll review it and comment or add it. Please don't fight and don't comment on each other's suggestions. I hope to get this done before the weekend.
Arab Cowboy's suggestions
Diaa, I restored the lead that had been agreed before my absence. I do not agree to the changes that have been made since. The lead should contain concise summary statements of each of the sections in the articl"e.
Infobox": Asmahan (Template:Lang-ar Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; born: October 25, 1918 at Mediterranean Sea; died: July 14, 1944 in Nile River, Egypt) was an Egyptian singer and actor
"al-Atrash Clan" and "Immigration to Egypt": belonging to a princely Druze family of Syrian-Lebanese origin. Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood,
"Musical Debut" and "Egypt's Influence": she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right.
"Voice Characteristics" (will be added later when fixed): Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. Although the original reference is from a book of at least 4 volumes (Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320), although shown online in what seems to be a blog, I added NT's reference from Zuhur's Asmahan's Secrets.
"Personal Life", "Role in WWII", and "Death" Her mysterious, untimely death by drowning at the age of twenty-six drew speculations about tribulations in her personal life and an espionage role in World War II.
This is the way things should go... Again, this article is about Asmahan and her music, not the al-Atrash clan. There are other articles in Misplaced Pages about the clan. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- Three people - myself, SD and Diaa - have agreed that the Umm Kulthum thing should not be there. (Diaa removed it here.) There are a number of reasons, one of which is that blogspot is not a reliable source. But you'll see that all you really did was undid Diaa's edits, and at this point, all you're doing is going against the consensus. Also, you changed her birthdate in this edit - why did you do that? I didn't think that was up for debate. — HelloAnnyong 05:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- In fact, Diaa had agreed that the Asmahan's Secrets, p. 85 ref that had been provided by NT was a reliable source. What Diaa last said about this matter was "Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)". Two other editors, NT and myself, did not agree with the removal of the Umm Kulthum statement. So what consensus are you talking about that you and SD have reached in my absence for two days? The birthdate in the infobox was conflicting with the date in the lead. The date in the lead was backed by the al-Mada newspaper reference and that in the Infobox was backed by IMDB, not considered a reliable source, so I made them to match the reliably sourced date. Why don't you ever do a good job checking the sources before editing? (Ok, this time, the source is in Arabic so I won't hold it against you.) --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- My objection isn't just about sourcing; it's that having a statement like that in the lead is really awkward. The lead should be about a person's life, not about comparing them to someone else. And you wouldn't see that sort of thing in the lead of a good article. — HelloAnnyong 14:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- Annyong, Umm Kulthum was the "Gold Standard" of Arab music against whom all other singers have been compared. On a scale of 1 to 10, Umm Kulthum was a 10. Only Asmahan could be rated at 8-9. Fairuz is probably 7-8. I cannot think of others who even passed a 5. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why is your rating of Arab singers relevant to this article? — HelloAnnyong 14:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- This is the Talk page, not the article. I am providing you with a rating so you would understand where things fall in Arab music. Of course, this is my own opinion and is not article material. The relevance is your objection to the Umm Kulthum comparison. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why is your rating of Arab singers relevant to this article? — HelloAnnyong 14:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- Annyong, Umm Kulthum was the "Gold Standard" of Arab music against whom all other singers have been compared. On a scale of 1 to 10, Umm Kulthum was a 10. Only Asmahan could be rated at 8-9. Fairuz is probably 7-8. I cannot think of others who even passed a 5. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- My objection isn't just about sourcing; it's that having a statement like that in the lead is really awkward. The lead should be about a person's life, not about comparing them to someone else. And you wouldn't see that sort of thing in the lead of a good article. — HelloAnnyong 14:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The following statements currently in the article should be deleted. They are either of NO VALUE or IRRELEVANT to an article about Asmahan. The al-Atrash clan have their own article in Misplaced Pages and most of these statements would fit better in that article.
1. "Her father was married twice and had two children before marrying 'Alia al-Mundhir." IRRELEVANT
- Is related Asmahan's half brothers and sisters, shows her close relatives, stays.
2. "She also had an older brother, Fuad, and a sister and brother, Widad and Anwar who both had died at a very young age." NO VALUE
- Is related to the environment Asmahan grew up in, stays.
3. "Fahd suggested naming her "Bahriyya" (meaning "of the sea" in Arabic), but her mother objected and decided to name her "Amal", meaning "hope"." NO VALUE
- Very interesting and has a proper reference, stays.
4. "Fahd was later appointed as a judge in Suwayda." IRRELEVANT
- Relevant to why Alia and her family could be targeted, stays.
5. "The al-Atrash clan was a Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s." IRRELEVANT
- Bad start sentence, their role is relevant for their fleeing, has to change.
6. "Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children, who might be killed of the fighting in Suwayda. Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda." NO VALUE
7. "`Alia's husband threatened to divorce her if she did not return to Syria. 'Alia refused and was therefore divorced." NO VALUE
- Well this is very important. I don't see how you could say that. It's referenced in the Asmahan's Secrets book, SD should reff that... In any case this would leave a blank point as to what exactly was the relationship of Alia/ Asmahan and her husband/father. stays
- I don't exactly understand what you want changed in the lead now. Please summarize it and get to the point of what you want changed.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
- Where did I say that I want the lead changed? I want it to stay as is. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness suggestions
Diaa, I thank you for your work and patience. You have helped a lot and I think we are done soon.
But some things have to be addressed.
- The first line in the article I want it to say she is Syrian-Lebanese. Her mother was lebanese, and there is no solid proof she got Egyptian citizenship and even if she did this happened a long time after she emigrated there, as proven above. And as have been showed many times the quote from Asmahans Secrets page 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status"
Suggestion "was a Syrian-Lebanese singer and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan"
- Sorry Supreme Deliciousness but we discussed this and there is no doubt that she got the Egyptian citizenship. You yourself said "The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems." so she did get naturalized... I will not debate this anymore. It has to be mentioned in the lead. Syrian-Lebanese is doubtful as there is no proof that she got the Lebanese citizenship. There is proof that she regained the Syrian citizenship, so SD she is Syrian-Egyptian or "Syrian Singer who had her entire career in Egypt and was naturalized there".--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- I would also like this expanded to the Farid al-Atrash article, a man born in Syria, to Syrian-Lebanese parents.
So it says: "Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Lebanese composer, singer, virtuoso oud player, and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan.
- Same here, he got the Egyptian citizenship. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa, how about both of them Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian? If not then I ask you to change the lead to the Farid al atrash article to: ""Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Egyptian"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad."
This I want deleted, the source for this was a blog, There is no evidence she was the apprentice for these, and I also question the importance of adding the nationality of some of the people she might have worked with in in the lead of the article, this is the usual edits by AC to put the word "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858
- removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."
This I want deleted, Sherifa has not said this, this is guessing by AC himself and has no place in an encyclopedia.
- removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. "
Must be deleted, has nothing to do in an encyclopedia.
- removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Asmahan only remembered this period as happy and carefree childhood. She spent most early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits.""
This is not following what the source is saying which is: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut"
My suggestion to the article: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in Suweida, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was what she saw as her "home" rather then Lebanon or Turkey"
- "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to go to Syria"
In the WW2 section, a very important trigger word was deleted by AC, I want this word returned to the article so it says: "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to return to Syria"
- "popular prime minister Saad Zaghloul"
Popular? this should be deleted. What relevance is it if he is popular or not? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- "and in Egypt, she remained for the rest of her short life." reffed from page 99, but in the book after page 99 it continues to speak about her return to Syria during WW2.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- This section should be rewritten and merged into the rest of sections anyway. I'll see later what I can do. till then add {{clarify}} next to the reff. And please continue reffing the article.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
HelloAnnyong's suggestions
Don't know why I didn't get a section here, but here's my take.
- "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." - This line needs to go. Aside from being wholly unsourced and not covered by the text in the article, it's just not particularly relevant. And for someone who has no idea who Umm Kulthum is, it means nothing.
- There should be a line or two about how she contributed to Arab music. The lead should mention why she was notable, and being the apprentice of some guys and singing in competitions doesn't really make me think that she's all that important. But she clearly is important (at least, enough to keep two editors battling about her for months) so there should be something that points out why she was so notable.
Just my take on this. — HelloAnnyong 12:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry HelloAnnyong for not putting a section for you. Not a big issue... I agree to both your comments. I think SD and AC can take care of the second point. My brain is currently fried because of this long and exhausting discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- That's alright. You've done an exceptional job here. — HelloAnnyong 16:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
HelloAnnyong, anyone who knows anything about Arabic music, should know who Umm Kulthum is!!! And the fact that she is hyperlinked should be enough for others. Contrary to what you think, I believe it is important as Umm Kulthum was and is the frame of reference. You should understand that "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." actually helps make people get the idea of how IMPORTANT Asmahan was. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- You know, Wiki articles aren't just for a small group of people. They're read by people around the world who have varying levels of knowledge on a subject, and the articles need to be accessible to all. To that end, it's restrictive to write an article that makes references that only a small group of people will understand. — HelloAnnyong 20:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Where is the source for "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." ? It was a blog. This kind of statement has no place in an encyclopedia.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are right, that is what hyperlinks are for! --Nefer Tweety (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
"This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" write Al-Sharif. Al-Sharif describes the "rivalry" of the two artists, Umm Kulthum and Asmahan, at a purely vocal level- in the potential, the range, musicality, and the interpretive skills Asmahan possessed surpassed those of other voices with the sole exception of Umm Kulthum." Page 85 Asmahan's Secrets http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA85&dq=asmahan+%22umm+kulthum%22 . In case you still do not get what I meant above, this is a huge compliment to Asmahan and a measure of her talent. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- note, page 85 is not viewable in the link. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- That's nice. It's still adding way too much undue weight to what is a relatively minor point. If you want to actually show how she came to take on Umm Kulthum, put it in the actual text of the article and se sources. Don't just randomly insert these grand, sweeping points that don't actually say anything of substance. — HelloAnnyong 23:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
after some google quote searching I can confirm that this sentence is indeed on page 85: "This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" I can not see the whole page but something is written on the page about a rivalry. Still, should it even be in the article or lead? considering the points HA mentions above.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, I am sorry, I do not know enough about the "citation template" and I find it a bit confusing to add references to the main article. I'll leave editing the article to anyone else. It's enough for me to follow what's going on here, on the Talk page, and give my opinion only if I feel I have something valuable to add. __Nefer Tweety (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Nefer Tweety's suggestions
Conflicts
It seems that on every single thing that is added there has to be a conflict. The article is very high need of expansion and the two of you just fight about the smallest word that is there. I have to admit Al Quds is deemed a reliable source. It is a public newspaper written by journalists and is therefore reliable. I've been away for a while working on some other things. I guess again please post your problems below and don't write 2,000kB explaining why you're right and the other is wrong. Just write something you want somewhere changed or added and I'll comment. Please don't fight again and I don't get why you posted on the Administrator's noticeboard which does one of two things: Block a person or Edit protect the page which are both not of your interest. Please withdraw the complaint. HelloAnnyong your input is very welcome and I'm happy that you're still with us..--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) Glad to be here. I'm pretty sure your pleading here is going to fall on deaf ears. This is just one of many articles where SD and AC have been battling; Soad Hosny, Omar Sharif and Farid al-Atrash are also points of contention for them. Of course I would love nothing more than to see the fight end here, but after watching this for many weeks, I just don't know... — HelloAnnyong 15:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Not just those, Annyong, but also Baba Ghannouj, Debke, Qatayef, Kunafah, etc. He thinks he has a Syrian monopoly on all of these things. He clearly hates anything Egyptian and would rather see Omar Sharif labelled as Greek rather than Egyptian, for example. Just ANYTHING BUT Egyptian. He feels that Egypt is the enemy of Syria, just like Israel is. It was an uphill battle to convince him that Qatayef is just as Egyptian as it is Levantine, for example, or that the people of al-Arish view the dabka as their folk dance. He feels that everyone is out there to steal whatever LITTLE culture his country has had to offer; this is what he makes it look like. He's so jealous and envious of Egypt, and has been the most childish and selfish individual I've ever had to deal with. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- "He's so jealous and envious of Egypt, and has been the most childish and selfish individual I've ever had to deal with." - and this is why we have conflict. — HelloAnnyong 15:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- childish and envious he says, this is coming from someone that deleted that Sulaf Fawakherji is a Syrian actor, yet added "Egyptian" infront of every single Egyptian person she ever met in her life in rest of the article. This is coming from someone that deleted that Omar Shariff parents were Lebanese and that Soad Hosny has a Syrian family background. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Sulaf has never met Asmahan. You are lying again, I have not deleted Omar Sharif's Lebanese-Egyptian parenthood (notice you started out calling him Syrian, and when that didn't work, Greek, then Lebanese; anything but Egyptian is your goal) or Soad Hosny's Syrian family background on her father's side. Check the articles to see your own lies. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- childish and envious he says, this is coming from someone that deleted that Sulaf Fawakherji is a Syrian actor, yet added "Egyptian" infront of every single Egyptian person she ever met in her life in rest of the article. This is coming from someone that deleted that Omar Shariff parents were Lebanese and that Soad Hosny has a Syrian family background. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa, what SD says above is untrue, as usual. My edits were all legitimate and have improved the article. SD had edited the article during my absence and you have given the greenlight to improve the article before I started my edits. I have posted for you, above, in the "Arab Cowboy's Suggestions" section the statements that had NOT been agreed and that I would like removed (as you had done with SD's requests in my absence: done, done, removed, removed,...). Please review and delete them as necessary. Other than those listed above, all edits that I have made to the article had been over-killed with discussion on the Talk page. SD's addition of "Syrian" to describe Sulaf is not relevant to the article and opens the door to listing the nationalities of all the actors in the series. This is not the place for that. None of those actors had any influence on Asmahan or her music. Maybe SD should list the sourced information, that is of any relevance to Asmahan and her music, and that he alleges that I removed? I do not see a reason to withdraw the complaint for as long as he still wants to roll back the article to July 25th after all the work I have done. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- All AC edits on wikipedia can bee seen here, all of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Good for you, SD. You're obviously lying again because I have made a couple more edits than this one, and when you showed a source that this was a Turkish recipe, I left it alone without any fight. I have lived in Syria and Lebanon, and pastirma there is so thick and hard to chew that you wouldn't even want to put it on your car tires. Even the sellers would tell me that it was preferrable to cook it first to make it edible. It cannot possibly be made the same way as in Turkey and Egypt, where it is eaten as cold cuts. No wonder, people from the Levant stock up on pastirma during their visits to Egypt and carry it back with them. Plus, there's a separate paragraph for Lebanese pastirma in that section, so what else do you need? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- I can also add that "all of SD's edits" can be summed up by examples of what other editors say to him:
- "I hope you are banned from Misplaced Pages soon for your comments on this and many other pages. You are a disgrace to Misplaced Pages (if not the human race)."--Gilabrand (talk) 09:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC). Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Za%27atar#Israeli_culture_theft
- and
- "Please understand that this is an encyclopedia. Statements must be supported by verifiable sources, opinion is not enough. Edits that are aggressive, highly political attacks on particular ethnic and national groups are not welcome here. And please try to read up on a topic before you edit. Your assertion that is is somehow illegitimate for a nation to adopt a foodstuff Za'atar is absurd. And your assertion that the Druze are not Arabs because they are not genetically Arab is not merely ridiculous, it is borderiline racism. Historicist (talk) 03:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC) Historicist (talk) 11:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)". Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Supreme_Deliciousness#Settle_down
- --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Just so all are aware, I've warned Arab Cowboy about personal attacks, following their comments above. Such person attacks are against Misplaced Pages policy. — HelloAnnyong 18:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Annyong, you are continuously proving yourself to be SD's puppet, so your warnings are worthless. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, well, that's your opinion. Personal attacks are personal attacks, and they're not allowed. — HelloAnnyong 18:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Don't care about background
I completely and utterly don't care about the Backgrounds of any of you two. If we did that then many of the admins would be banned for starting with unreffed edits then improving over time. Again you started fighting.... Could u please stop fighting?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, Diaa, fair enough. I have posted for you, above, in the "Arab Cowboy's Suggestions" section the statements that had NOT been agreed and that I would like removed. Please review and delete them as necessary. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Will review...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
On topic posts only
- Diaa, thank you for not leaving and giving up, I thought we had lost you. Now I will write my problems with the page, but first I must know from what page are we gonna start working from. Everything that I have wanted to change, delete or ad, I had to go through the talkpage as the mediation process was, on the 26th, AC did massive changes to the article and deleted several sourced sections without going through the talkpage, is this fair? Now are you gonna put me in a situation where I have to fight this uphill battle one more time? Is this fair to me? I am asking you to take the article back to any date of the 25th so we can start from there, and if Arab Cowboy wants to do any of these changes he forced on the article, he would have to go through the talkpage, like I had to do. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Will Review...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
- Currently there are many reverts and changes to the point that I lost the positive/negative or controversial changes AC did. If you could show me some specific changes I can revert them till further discussion. I find what AC did with changing everything without even respecting my input shows much disrespect to my instructions, which was part of my decision to abstain from any mediation for a while. AC, I reviewed what SD said and added with my own edits what I saw as facts. I couldn't see how you would have objected to any of them. I wasn't biased at all and opposed some suggestions and agreed to others. I told you to add reffs before I remove all unreffed stuff to clear things. You added more than reffs. Some are good edits, others are controversial. In any case I hope such changes and editwars wouldn't occur in the future and hope AC and SD get along some day, since both are interested in the same articles.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa, this is really curious! What is that "everything" that I changed, please be specific, and what are your inputs that I did not respect? You had given instructions to SD on Farid's Talk page to "improve the articles". SD had been editing the article while I abstained. Why is one editor allowed to edit while the other only permitted to add refs? If that was what you meant then it was not acceptable. Was it you who had added "Syrian actor" in reference to Sulaf? Was it you who had added "She returned to Suwayda, her Syrian homeland" with three refs (that did not really reflect that statement - in fact, the whole book did not contain "homeland" at all)? I really do not see what you're talking about! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- SD wasn't allowed to change anything on Asmahan except add {{Clarify}} to one sentence. The Farid Al Atrash article needs a lot of expansions which any of you could do without wars. And "Improve the articles" means to improve the article, which I specified on this page as "Supreme Deliciousness please replace the citation needed templates" . "everything" means all types of changes, reffs, expansions, changes of sentences....--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- These were there in the 24 hours edits allowed.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- No, Diaa, you may have lost the sequence of events. Those two specific additions by SD were made AFTER the 24-hour free edit periods: here, here, here, and here, at least. They were made after my own 24-hour period (11 July) had elapsed, which came second. Or, did SD get a second 24-hour free editing period while I did not know? I refrained from editing all the way through last week, then when I found these two and other edits made by SD, while you were telling him to "improve the article", I took it to mean that free editing was allowed. "Improve the article" was not by any means restricted to "replace the citation needed templates". It was a general instruction to improve the article, and I did a whole day's worth of work "improving the article". I removed those two additions only because they had been posted post the 24-hour periods, and I listed the rest that I wanted removed on this page. What was I supposed to take "improve the article" as, while SD was freely editing the article? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- This is not true at all what AC is saying, The "returned to her family's hometown" were there from the beginning when I was allowed to edit the article, you AC deleted the segment during your free edit, and I brought the sentence back right after your free 24hours edit. The other sentence, Diaaa said we should ad refs to the article, I added a ref and added two words "Syrian actress" the women who played Asmahan according to the link was Syrian. How is this: "while SD was freely editing the article" ?? Adding two single words compared to changing the whole article like Arab Cowboy did? Is this a joke? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- It had already been agreed on this Talk page that "hometown" was not to be used. Or am I mistaken about this, Diaa? Obviously SD had done a lot more than "add to one sentence". Please see 4 diffs in my paragraph above. Why wasn't he accused of "changing the whole article"? Please view those changes made by SD next to your "improve the article" instruction and show me how it could not have been interpreted to freely edit the article? I am still waiting for you to take your accusation back, Diaa, or show me where I was wrong. --Arab Cowboy (talk)
- This is not true at all what AC is saying, The "returned to her family's hometown" were there from the beginning when I was allowed to edit the article, you AC deleted the segment during your free edit, and I brought the sentence back right after your free 24hours edit. The other sentence, Diaaa said we should ad refs to the article, I added a ref and added two words "Syrian actress" the women who played Asmahan according to the link was Syrian. How is this: "while SD was freely editing the article" ?? Adding two single words compared to changing the whole article like Arab Cowboy did? Is this a joke? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
1. This was asked by admin al Ameer son and Dia to create a Identity section: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=301555899&oldid=301552725
2. This was added by me during my free 24hours and you deleted them, and I brought them back: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=301586920&oldid=301583401
3. This was two single words and a reff that was asked by Dia to ad reffs to article: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=304187036&oldid=304124449
4. This was one single word: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=301552678&oldid=301552169
So please, cut the crap about me "editing freely" ok? seriously sick and tired of this guy.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Your rudeness and vulgarity only speak of you and your people. At least 4 edits, not none at all. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- What do you mean by Your people ????--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, I ask for your permission to freely edit the article, then you can take a look at it, I will take back a lot of thing to how they were, and bring back segments deleted by Arab Cowboy, I will not delete anything of what AC added although they were added without the mediation process, but if there is anything I object to I will make a list at the talkpage, ok?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- You may expand but not change sections. You can add stuff that was deleted between the 26th and today. Please do this incrementaly (Section by Section) so I could revert easily if needed. I'll stay awake for the next hour to finish this controversy.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- If any of you missed it, here it is again, claims by AC that I "freely edited the article" are complete false: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=304963691&oldid=304962584 and no, "homeland" was not to be used, her "family's hometown" is a different thing.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- SD had made at least 4 edits that I have so far counted, when he was supposed to make none. "hometown" is the same, if it is going to be used, i will bring a dozen references to Asmahan choosing Egypt as her adopted country. I have so refrained from doing so to avoid references to homeland or hometown or anything similar. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- You lie, a usual. There were 4 other editors besides me changing the article between those dates. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Tags
I've readded the OR, refimprove and fansite tags. I'm mostly referring to the Voice Characteristics section, which I still believe is heavily skewed. The Death section is also wholly unsourced. Do not remove these tags until these issues are taken care of. — HelloAnnyong 20:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Annyong, what is "readded"? and why did you truncate the VC title? In which direction is it heavily skewed? It is based entirely on Zuhur's Images of Enchantment? Please be more specific so your concerns may be addressed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- I re-added the tags back to the top of the page. I truncated the Voice characteristics title because "Song Delivery" has no real meaning; it's just there to be fancruft and extol Asmahan a little bit more. And the fact that it's based solely on Zuhur's book troubles me. One, it should use multiple sources; two, it shouldn't just be a paraphrasing of what's in the book; and three, it's skewed in the direction of making her out to be the greatest singer ever. "She gained stature through sensitive and successful emotional interpretation as well as musical delivery of various phrases – which often implied a deep understanding of emotional states." is utter fluff and has no value to an encyclopedic article. I'd remove the section, but I won't unless other people (and not just SD) agree with me. — HelloAnnyong 20:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Red links (needed articles)
Please create either stubs or DYKs for the following articles:--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Sulaf Fawakherji Syrian actress who played Asmahan.
- Prince Hassan al-Atrash (If not notable he shouldn't be linked to)
- Ahmed Salem Egyptian film director who married her.
To Diaa
Diaa, you have an interesting way of not seeing or ignoring what I write to you. Again, what do I need to do get your attention? Previously, I've had to post all my paragraphs on your Talk page to get a reply and still I got none. How do you expect your "instructions" to be heeded then? Even if you prefer the burial place to go in the Death section, why is SD making the change and not you? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- It had already been agreed on this Talk page that "hometown" was not to be used. Or am I mistaken about this, Diaa? Obviously SD had done a lot more than "add to one sentence". Please see 4 diffs in my paragraph above. Why wasn't he accused of "changing the whole article"? Please view those changes made by SD next to your "improve the article" instruction and show me how it could not have been interpreted to freely edit the article? I am still waiting for you to take your accusation back, Diaa, or show me where I was wrong. --Arab Cowboy (talk)
- It seems that the two of you disregarded my instructions. You were wrong on doing the same wrong thing.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- I had not seen you lay any blame on him; you just kept piling on me "changed the whole article"! Your disregard of the many posts that I had made to you here and on your Talk page brought about this misunderstanding of your "instructions". Your instruction above was for him to add and not change sections, so when I bring to your attention that he's changing sections and you never respond, then I am forced to also change sections myself. I have already brought to your attention repeatedly the redundant statement that he added to the lead. I would like to see it removed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- AC I mostly don't do discussions on my talk page. I address talk pages I'm watching... I delayed my answer to your suggestions a bit which wasn't intentional, believe it or not. If the two of you could disregard the past and concentrate on the present we can get this finished. Currently everything is screwed up and I don't know what everyone wants. Do the same trick with suggestions again and I'll reply to you first this time. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa, you replied neither here nor on your Talk page, but only told SD to "improve the article". I therefore reject any criticism from you or anyone about me "changing the whole article". I think an apology is owed here. Now, I have put a lot of work into the article over the last few days, and if they got all messed up with SD's edits then we'd have a very big problem. Please address my comments to you that I had left on your Talk page last week; you're welcome to transport them back here if you wish. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- AC I mostly don't do discussions on my talk page. I address talk pages I'm watching... I delayed my answer to your suggestions a bit which wasn't intentional, believe it or not. If the two of you could disregard the past and concentrate on the present we can get this finished. Currently everything is screwed up and I don't know what everyone wants. Do the same trick with suggestions again and I'll reply to you first this time. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- I had not seen you lay any blame on him; you just kept piling on me "changed the whole article"! Your disregard of the many posts that I had made to you here and on your Talk page brought about this misunderstanding of your "instructions". Your instruction above was for him to add and not change sections, so when I bring to your attention that he's changing sections and you never respond, then I am forced to also change sections myself. I have already brought to your attention repeatedly the redundant statement that he added to the lead. I would like to see it removed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- WP:Stick--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Regretfully, Diaa, I will not be able to take any more of your "instructions" until the above is cleared and the accusations are retracted. This is what you all have been calling "changed the whole article"? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
No, that is not it, unlike you, I did not remove what others have added. I kept It. This is changing the whole article: Changes by Arab cowboy between 22:31, 25 July 2009 to 20:03, 29 July 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=304942427&oldid=304193933 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- I may very well take my leave of this article as well. I'm starting to believe that there really isn't much mediation that can be done anymore. — HelloAnnyong 01:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, you had stated that you would approve, modify, or delete SD's additions within the hour, which you did not do. The statement that I modified brought the meaning as close as possible to that intended by Zuhur without actually copying the whole sentence; SD's interpretation of it changed the meaning and represented his POV. Also, SD's relocation of his "lineage" statement to the Egypt's Influence section is unacceptable; it undermines the whole section. I added the "citation needed" template at locations where the text contradicts with the sources, such as Asmahan's birthdate and the town that was shelled, etc. The first Legacy statement has never been sourced and should have been up for deletion a long time ago. I cannot accept your permission to SD to edit the article while I only write on the Talk page, all along, comments that you ignore. I am also not interested in chasing you around with my comments and repeating them over and over again. This cannot continue. I left you a message on MY Talk page. If you will be kind enough to respond there, it will be appreciated. Otherwise, I will not accept one-sided edits to the article. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 08:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
End of the war
I hope I'm not disrupting Diaa's mediation efforts which I see have failed because of the disruptive editing and the disruptive discussion being done by both AC and SD. I am enabling protection for this article as it is now for a 24-48 hour period (we'll see how things go), and anything either of you want changed will be newly discussed here in this section. I will not tolerate a insults by either of you against yourselves or against me, please keep this about the article. Don't assume bad faith or go on about past history. I wish you two could make up and cooperate to improve this article, but it seems you have entrenched yourselves deeply. Keep any enmity you have against the other to yourselves and don't ever bring it to this talk page again. I don't blame Diaa for leaving and can't believe he didn't leave earlier. Also, do not respond to what I said, just listen to it. Ok, now that that's over, what is it that either of you want. Don't give me any evidence of reverts or disruptive additions, just what each of you want to be added to the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Arab Cowboy
Salam Al-Ameer son:
Here's what I would like to see changed in the article:
1. I do not think that there should be a section dedicated to al-Atrash clan. They have their own article in Misplaced Pages, and a link to that article should suffice. This article is about Asmahan, not the clan. I can understand if the section is geared toward the "Flight from al-Jabal", but not about the clan.
- 1.a. As such, I would like the following sentence removed: "The al-Atrash clan was a Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.". This belongs in Atrash, not here.
- 1.b. The source actually says that the shelling occurred in al-Qrayya, not Suwayda. I hence added a "citation needed" tag.
- 1.c. This sentence should read as follows: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in the Jabal, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was the Jabal that had imprinted itself as "home" rather than their residences in Lebanon and Turkey." The opponent editor's interpretation of it changes the meaning to a POV. In fact, other sources show that Asmahan did not live in Suwayda in childhood, but in Lebanon (1918-1920) and then in Turkey (1920-1923) when they immigrated to Egypt, and only went to the Jabal for visits. This is also how I read this sentence (excluding the dates) from this particular source.
- I agree, there should not be a subsection for the clan and its history. Since this is an article on Asmahan we should concentrate on her life, but of course include a little background. Now, for the first sentence you want removed, I think half should be removed. I'll restructure the sentence to say "The al-Atrash clan were a well-known Syrian Druze family." If the source says Qraya, then it's Qraya, although it says the al-Atrash home was in Qraya. About 1c; I can't fully read page 36, but from what I can read, it says "She remembered a carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s..." So this should not be contested. We could use other sources to say when and where she lived during her childhood, but the sentence you have a problem will not be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- If you use "well-known" to describe the family, please restore "popular" to describe Saad Zaghloul. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
That's fine.On second thought, it's not fine. "Well-known" is not a POV because it's just saying the Atrash family were well-known (which they were), but there are people who liked and disliked them. To say "popular" reflects a POV. Now personally, I like Zaghloul and many, if not most Egyptians do so also. Of course some Egyptians, the British, and perhaps other, may not have liked him too much. Therefore, it's a POV to say he is popular. I will put "nationalist" which neutrally describes him. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- "popular" does not mean that everyone liked him, but the majority did. Also, "popular" is measured in terms of the opinion of the population that he represented, not that of the occupation or the enemy. By the same token, the al-Atrash clan would have probably had NO noteriety at all in a country like Egypt had it not been for Asmahan and Farid. I believe that these two singers brought fame to the clan, and not the other way around. The clan are probably not known at all by the average Egyptian, let alone "well-known". So, the question is, "well-known" by whom? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not saying they would have notoriety in Egypt, they're well known at least in Syria (maybe Lebanon and Palestine too, but surely Syria.) I could reword it to say "well-known in Syria for fighting the French occupiers." --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- The source say: "When the French began the aerial bombardment of the al-Atrash home in al-Qrayya, she left for Damascus and would not return" al-Qrayya is a village/town in the Suwayda governoate, the name Suwayda is used for both the Suwayda governoate and Suwayda town. The full quote from page 36 is: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut. The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape. "I felt untouched by anything truly bad," she reportedly told al-tabi`i. A child would have been unafraid of the political events concerning their elders. Until the Druze rebellion broke out, Asmahan seemed unaware of the desperate times in the world she escaped." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, this confirms the validity of the sentence so, no this will not be removed. As for Qraya/Suwayda, this is no big deal; I'll clarify as succinctly as I can. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- This sentence should read as follows: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in the Jabal, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was the Jabal that had imprinted itself as "home" rather than their residences in Lebanon and Turkey.", not the way it is re-written in the article now. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- I don't want to use "Jabal" because Jabal al-Druze is not mentioned in the article. There's nothing wrong with using "Suwayda" or the "Suwayda area." I just added "residences", but other than that the passage is fine. Nothing in the article has to be word-for-word unless it's in quotes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, you can use "the mountain" or "al-Jabal (the mountain)", but I am seeking accuracy here. It is unclear whether Asmahan's visits were to Suwayda town or al-Qrayya. And, if the shelling occurred in al-Qrayya and that's the place from which they escaped, then how do we know that their visits were to Suwayda? The link in the article from Suwayda went to an another article that described it as a town. I suggest using "the Druze mountain" in place of all of Suwayda, Qrayya, jabal, mountain, etc. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Oops, I realized I was wrong here; Jabal is used throughout the article. I went ahead and replaced Suwayda with Jabal. However, does it say her father was a "judge in Suwayda" in the source? I didn't remove that instance of Suwayda nor the first instance when it says her father was from Suwayda because I don't want to tamper with the source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Yes the source says he became a judge in Suwayda.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Oops, I realized I was wrong here; Jabal is used throughout the article. I went ahead and replaced Suwayda with Jabal. However, does it say her father was a "judge in Suwayda" in the source? I didn't remove that instance of Suwayda nor the first instance when it says her father was from Suwayda because I don't want to tamper with the source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- That's what I thought. In that case is the Suwayda/Jabal Druze situation accurate now? --Al Ameer son (talk) 07:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Yes it looks good now. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- That's what I thought. In that case is the Suwayda/Jabal Druze situation accurate now? --Al Ameer son (talk) 07:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
2. I would like the following sentence to be removed: "Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children, who might be killed of the fighting in Suwayda. Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda." It adds no value to the article and is just boring detail.
- I'll try to reduce it, but won't remove it totally since it could help illustrate the background of her immediate family. Afterward, if I feel it has no relevance then I'll just take it out completely. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
3. I would like the following sentence to be removed: "However she always referred to her father and Sultan al Atrash to clarify her lineage. She once said to a friend questioning her about her mission during WW2: "Don't you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash"." It was said by Asmahan as some sort of bluff on one occasion, not a statement of identity. If you see that it should stay, then it definitely does not belong in the "Career" section, and should not begin with "However". If you choose to keep it, in a different section and not as a direct quotation and not italicized, I will counter it with statements affirming Asmahan's choice of Egypt as her adopted country.
- Again, I can't fully read page 37, but from what I can it clarifies that she said that, but does not say she said it as a bluff or on one occasion. It also doesn't say "always". I'll write it as "She referred to her father and Sultan al Atrash to clarify her lineage, saying 'Don't you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash'". I wish I could see the whole page for complete clarification. I don't see any other place to put it except for the section it's currently in. However, honestly, I don't think we need to have this sentence at all. If someone has access to the full page, I'll see how we could work it in for the sake of balance. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Full quote from page 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refereed to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin (although she was actually a third cousin twice removed) to the Amir al-Atrash (Hassan) and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash"" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Another ok. Does it say anything about World War 2 or just the British? It doesn't matter too much, I won't be picky. Seeing that the source backs the sentence (which will be slightly rewritten for complete accuracy reflecting the reference) I will not remove/relocate it from the section because it's good for balance. Anyhow, it's not saying whether or not she considered herself more Syrian than Egyptian (on the contrary, most of the section is about "Egypt's influence"), but that she obviously did not reject or ignore (actually seems to have been proud of) her clan's heritage. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- I do not think it should be in the "Egypt's Influence" section at all; it is unrelated, undermines the whole section and should definitely not start with "However". If you choose to keep it, in a different section, such as a "Flight from al-Jabal" section, and not as a direct quotation and not italicized, I will counter it with statements affirming Asmahan's choice of Egypt as her adopted country. Please note also that the original statement says that Hassan was actually a third cousin twice removed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't edited that part yet, but "undermine" is not the right word. Just because Egypt is in the section heading doesn't mean everything in it has to be about Egypt. Preferably, it should be only about Egypt. However, the purpose of this little sliver of info is not to undermine the entire section, but rather to expand its horizons. Now, I will read over the article again and might relocate it to the Early life section, but this isn't that likely. "However" will be removed. Let me take a knack at the sentence and we'll see how that goes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, It was about her mission during WW2 to Syria and it was work for the british. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it was specifically about her mission during WWII, and this is why, I question the use of the word "always"; the quotation is taken out of context here. I also read it as a bluff, because Zuhur clarifies, in the same quote, that she was actually a thrid cousin, twice removed, of Haasan's, which is consistent with the definition of a bluff. In any case, if you insist on keeping it in the Egypt's Influence section, then please add, after it, the quote from Page 13 of the same book, "The other side of her partiotism was to her adopted country, Egypt." --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks for clarifying. Does the source say she was bluffing? If not, for us to state she was bluffing would be a violation of WP:Original research. Also, the point is she was still proud of her Druze heritage. Anyway, what's your take now, I just changed it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
4. I would like the following sentence to be removed or properly referenced: "Her house in Syria is located in the French Quarter of Swuayda. Years after her death, that house was seized by the Syrian government, and became – like much of the French Quarter – a property of the Syrian Army. It took the government sixty-two years to give in to the demands to turn the house into a museum for Asmahan and Farid.". It has needed citation for ages. More specifically, there's no evidence that Asmahan ever OWNED a house in Suwayda and when she died, she was already divorced from Hassan and back in Egypt, so she did not inherit him. This needs to be sourced.
- This really should have a source. Could somebody find one? Until then, I'll keep it, but hidden. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
5. The November 23 birthdate contradicts with other sourced birthdates already in the article. I hence added a "citation needed" tag. I do not care which is the correct one, but the date needs to be consistent.
- Well, on page 25 in Zuhur, it says she was born on the 23rd of November, so I'll replace the October 25. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I may add more later.
It's time to remove all sentences in the article where citation has been needed and not provided. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- I suggest we wait a little longer before doing that, maybe one more week? I don't like uncited info in articles myself, but the divorce bit seems important if it's true. If not, scratch it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- how about the first sentence in the Legacy section? - still vague and uncited. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Yea, I just noticed that. I made it a part of the hidden comment since they're quite related. The whole comment should be removed within a week too if no source is provided to back it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks and Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness
- 1. In the arabic page of Asmahan someone has deleted her Syrian nationality from the infobox and replaced it with Egyptian. Please bring it back. Also I would like both the leads of the arabic Asmahan and Farid article to say she is Syrian-Egyptian. Would really appreciate if you could take care of it. And also ad a source, so maybe someone wont deleted it again. This is a good source you can use: Images of enchantment, page 81, http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+Hasbaya#v=onepage&q=asmahan%20Hasbaya&f=false
- By Arabic you mean Arabic Misplaced Pages? I'm probably not going to change that since I can't read or write in Arabic. If you can, go ahead, this has nothing to do with this article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- 2. This I want removed from legacy section: "The Egyptian Media Production City and a private investor jointly produced a television series" unnecessary text no one cares about. "Farid al-Atrash was played by Egyptian actor Ahmed Shaker Abdel-Latif." Its of no relevance to the article which actor played Farid al atrash.
- The first sentence seems relevant since the rest of the sentence says "depicting the life (and death) of Asmahan." The Farid part does have no relevance so yes that should be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- What is the relevance of Sulaf's nationality in the article? None. If you are going to delete reference to the actor who played Farid, then please remove also Sulaf's nationality. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- There's no relevance problem here. Farid was totally removed because he's not Asmahan and has his own article. Sulaf doesn't have an article so it's good to provide minimal background i.e. "Syrian actress." If she was any other nationality we would put that, no big deal. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, the farid sentence is still in the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 3. This I want removed, in the death section: "in her family’s burial plot at the Fustat plain in Cairo" I look at the source, and there is nothing saying or implying that its a "family burial plot"
- I just looked and you're right there is nothing on "family burial plot". This will be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Do people get buried in unmarked graves next to unknown dead people or do they get buried in family burial plots? Since Asmahan and Farid had restored the burial site then it was their family's burial plot there. They were not buried in unidentified gravesites. There are Atrashes who live in and are citizens of Egypt. Like everyone else, they have a family burial plot. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- The source doesn't say other Atrashes were buried there. If you find a source that says that it was a "family burial plot" then fine. The source used mentions that Farid, Asmahan and another famous Egyptian entertainer are buried there so I think the cemetery is not really for "families," but rather celebrated figures. Farid and Asmahan were both famous and it also happens that they were siblings. So, if you bring a reliable source confirming it as a family burial plot by all means we will put it in, but until then we just can't state that. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, the "family burial plot" is still in the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- This source says that Fuad, Farid, and Asmahan are buried there. I guess this makes it a family plot. There are no plots for singers only in Egypt. Everyone is buried with their family. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Man, I don't want to sound picky, really, but I still think we can't write "family burial plot." However, I suggest you ask another admin who is more familiar with guidelines to see if this wouldn't violate original research. It is interesting that Fuad is also buried there which should be mentioned in the article. Go ahead and add it with the additional source when the block expires shortly. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- ok, i will do that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 4. You removed a lot from the early life section including the Adham Khanjar incident, that section is clearly referenced in Asmahans Secrets page 38 as "It was in fact the Adham Khanjar incident that sparked Asmahans emigration to Egypt". And that it was her relative Sultan al Atrash that had participated in it, I just feel its important info and shouldn't have been removed.
- Huh, I overlooked that. We should really try to keep the info in this article tight on Asmahan so I removed a lot of al-Atrash stuff since they have their own article. But since the source says that exactly it does seem relevant. Let me take a second look at the section to see if it's needed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Did you take a look at this and still don't found it important? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry about that SD, I'll try to put it in, but in a reduced form. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC) Actually, looking at the article there's no need to mention the incident since we'd have to elaborate more on it (what the incident was exactly, how al-Atrash was related to it, and the result of the incident i.e. the hostilities in the Jabal). What's mentioned now suffices, but a compromise would perhaps be "When fighting between French and Syrian forces erupted following the Adham Khanjar incident and resulted in the shelling of the al-Atrash home in al-Qrayya near Suwayda in the Jabal al-Druze, 'Alia fled with her children for Damascus and refused to return." Does this work? We shouldn't go any further. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:56, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok that sounds good, but thats a very long sentence, maybe you should try to divide it into several sentences. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- It looks good how it is now, but the direct link to "Jabal al-Druze" was removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok that sounds good, but thats a very long sentence, maybe you should try to divide it into several sentences. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 5. Problem: Suwayda - Jabal Druze, both words are used all over the article, Jabal druze covers almost all of Suweyda governorate, but the reader might not understand this and think they are to separate things.
- I apologize for that (didn't realize Jabal was used later in the article). In that case, did Asmahan live in Suwayda city or next to Suwayda? If it's the latter then I have to clarify this in the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- 6. In the word Suwayda here: "When fighting between French and Syrian forces erupted and resulted in the shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda" it should be linked to the Suwayda governorate (where al-Qrayya is) to not confuse it with the Suwayda town. Or "al-Atrash home in the Jabal".
- Will do. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- 7. This I question the authenticity of it, in the Egypt influence section: "Asmahan sang virtually exclusively in the Egyptian Arabic dialect" Because on page 88 in it says, quote: "Asmahan sang a number of compositions whose melodies and lyrics were simpler and more closely related to folk themes, both Syrian and Egyptian" http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+Hasbaya#v=onepage&q=asmahan%20Hasbaya&f=false
- The source used to back the first sentence doesn't totally back that sentence (it says they "never again sang in the Syrian dialect". However, I put more trust in the Zuhur source. If this becomes a big issue, we'll have to resort to attribution meaning "according to... However, on the contrary..." --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- I used the word "virtually", which means almost. If you would like to change it to "almost", then that's fine. There's only one song (in a bedouin dialect) of which I know that is not in the Egyptian dialect in Asmahan's repertoire of more than 40 songs. This one song is attributed to the lyricist Bairam Al-Tunsi (from Alexandria) and was filmed in a bedouin setting in Asmahan's second Egyptian movie, Gharam wa Intiqam. I would not put any more trust in Zuhur's source than any other. There have been "questions" about that author. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- The reason I prefer Zuhur is because her book(s) are dedicated to the subject of Asmahan, while the other source is one that discusses the Druze, particularly those in Israel. The Druze in Israel source, if I'm not mistaken, says "never again sang in the Syrian dialect" not "virtually" or "almost". Zuhur on the other hand states Asmahan "sang a number of compositions...more closely related to folk themes, both Syrian and Egyptian." Actually, they don't really contradict. Zuhur is not saying Asmahan indeed sung in Syrian dialect, but some of her compositions were related to Syrian folk "themes" which doesn't necessarily mean Syrian "dialect." So again, no problem here. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 8. In the first line in early life explaining her father was Syrian Druze and mother Lebanese Druze, a source that was previously there have been removed, please ad this after that as source: Images of enchantment, page 81, http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&pg=PA81&dq=asmahan+Hasbaya#v=onepage&q=asmahan%20Hasbaya&f=false
- Ok, done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- 9. In the immigration to Egypt section it now says: "were confronted by Egyptian immigration officials for not possessing any passports." This is the direct quote from the source AS p39: "`Alia had no proper traveling documents"
- Is you concern plagiarism? If so I'll just reword it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- In the video clip reference, the interview with Fuad al-Atrash, he uses the word passports. He says, "at the border, we did not have passports or anything". (please note that Fuad is spelled Fu'ad in some places in the article. let's make it consistent as Fuad. also, two "son" should be two "sons".) --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ohhh, well this is not a problem. Obviously "proper traveling documents" are "passports". Plus Fuad Atrash confirms this so no original research on our part. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 10, I think her lebanese part(her mother) should also be in the lead, Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian.
- This seems unnecessary (too many nationalities). Since she was a Syrian citizen at one point and Egyptian at another point we should just stick to Syrian-Egyptian. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- This has been over-killed in debate before. The lead now is the best compromise we will ever reach. It would best be
protected. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 11. Excessive use of the word "Egyptian" in many places in the article, in the lead for example. "Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood, she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers"
- No, that just makes sense. It's not excessive since the singers that are being described are indeed Egyptian and she became their apprentice after moving to Egypt. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- 12: This I want removed from the article, I just saw it, "However, the other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt." there is absolutely nothing on page 37 saying anything close to this. The segment after this says "I did. But, I was created for another purpose. I prefer the work of Farid, and the work of Umm Kulthum, and of art." this has nothing to do with "Patriotism belonging to Egypt" but love for music etc. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
:If the source doesn't back that then we have to remove it. Thankfully, this won't ruin the balance since it says something about being more loyal to her happiness in Egypt than her clan. Anyway, I'll just hide it until AC could find a source (giving it a 7-day limit like the rest of the hidden comments.) --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Never mind, AC found the source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, it is on p. 13, not 37, as I had pointed out in the Arab Cowboy section, above. I corrected it in the article. Also, someone had removed the sentence, "They were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens." I've just restored it. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Al ameer, "Syrian homeland" is sourced in the AS book and was not allowed to be added to article therefore, "adopted country" can not be allowed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- "Homeland" and similar were rejected as subjective by mediator in previous discussions. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- It depends on what context we're using "homeland." It shouldn't be stated to contradict the "adopted country" bit. So how do you intend on using it? --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
First line in the marriage section, "So she returned with him to her Syrian homeland" - the wording "Syrian homeland" is sourced--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Honestly, I think we should just state "...returned with him to Syria" for simplicity. Why state "homeland"? It's use in this case doesn't seem flagrant anyway since it is not contradicting the fact that Asmahan chose Egypt as her adopted country which must be stated explicitly. Please, let's make this compromise here and use "homeland" and let, what I think is, a Syrian-Egyptian rivalry of some sorts end. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- I dont see any problem with "She returned with him to her Syrian homeland" - it is sourced, and the part about "chose Egypt as her adopted country" - I can not confirm if it really says so because I can not view page 13, and I do not have any good faith in him, for very good reasons. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Well, regardless of whether or not you have good faith in him, we as in the community must assume good faith. Therefore, I state again, let's make a compromise on this one. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- I must say im disappointed, I don't see any wrong in my proposal, but let it stay as it is now instead of replacing it with just "homeland", Is there somewhere else in the article where
"Syrian homeland"would be acceptable to you?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- I must say im disappointed, I don't see any wrong in my proposal, but let it stay as it is now instead of replacing it with just "homeland", Is there somewhere else in the article where
- I think where you wanted it now, in the marriage section, would be an acceptable place. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I got a better idea, how about: "Asmahan's cousin, Prince Hassan al-Atrash, came from Syria and asked for her hand in marriage. So she returned with him to her homeland," .. is this ok? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- That's fine. Go ahead an make the edit. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- 13. Ameer, the latest edits by AC hey are highly POV. "The migrant family was later naturalized as Egyptian citizens." if you are naturalized in Egypt , then of course it is Egyptian citizenship, this is what it means. This is excessive use of the word "Egyptian". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- who has deleted this sentence in the first place, without discussion? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- What section is it in? Anyway, SD is right about this one being redundant. If it's clear in the previous sentence or two sentences that we're talking about their immigration to Egypt, then yes, obviously they were naturalized as "Egyptian" citizens rather than any other country. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Asmahan&diff=305510040&oldid=305509387 also the farid article has "naturalized as Egyptian citizens" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- What section is it in? Anyway, SD is right about this one being redundant. If it's clear in the previous sentence or two sentences that we're talking about their immigration to Egypt, then yes, obviously they were naturalized as "Egyptian" citizens rather than any other country. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, removed the redundancy. I'll do the same in Farid's article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- In the Farid article its enough with "Later, they were naturalized as citizens." of course its the Egyptian government that naturalized them.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, removed the redundancy. I'll do the same in Farid's article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- 14. In the Egypt influece section it says "and relocation to Syria" I looked up the word "relocate" in a dictionary, it says "To move to or establish in a new place" "To become established in a new residence" which is not true since she came from there and lived there before. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- That looks like a mistake, it should be "return". --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC) Actually, there seems to be a frequent use of "return." Some would be need to be replaced. Any substitute word suggestions? --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- "moving back to Syria" ? just replace it with something better. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, but could you make the edit? I'm a little busier today than I thought. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Done, thank you.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, but could you make the edit? I'm a little busier today than I thought. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
This is all I can found right now, maybe ill ad more later. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Objection
Ameer: the changes above are not acceptable to me. Diaa had approved an equal number of "return"s for both Egypt and Syria and he has objected to the use of the words "homeland" and "hometown". SD is chipping away at past agreements and compromises by not telling you of them and his continuous nagging. I am trying to be flexible, but the continuous edits are changing the meaning completely. His "better idea" above removed Egypt completely from the meaning and it is not known anymore where Hassan proposed to Asmahan. "relocation to Syria" can be changed to "residence in Syria", which is more neutral. "came to Cairo" cannot be changed to "came from Syria". The sentence about Asmahan being required to sing the praises of the republic is not only ridiculous, but also grammatically and historically inaccurate, regardless of what Zuhur says. Egypt was not a republic until after Asmahan's death altogether. I can go on and on, but this endless nagging and chipping away at every sentence must stop once and for all. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Its not factual to say "residence in Syria" because with the whole sentence it implies that she only lived there twice, which is false. "homeland" is sourced and was okeyd by mediator. Diaa said no "homeland" and therefore "adopted country" was not added also. you added "adopted country" without going to talkpage, therefore I got "homeland" with ok from mediator. If "homeland" is removed then "adopted country" is also gonna be removed. Amsmhan was required to sing about certain things, this is straight from Asmahns secretes page 13: "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt. That loyalty is hard to measure, since she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes." http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html Arab Cowboy changed this sentence to "The dependence on Egyptian elites led Asmahan and other singers to sing songs of praise for the king and his line." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa never objected to the use of "adopted country"; he objected to "homeland". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa never allowed "adopted country" Ameer didn't object to "homeland".--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa never allowed a billion other words that you've added since he left, yet he specifically objected to "homeland". you did not tell Ameer that when you kept nagging again about the same thing. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa never allowed "adopted country" Ameer didn't object to "homeland".--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Diaa never objected to the use of "adopted country"; he objected to "homeland". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Egypt was certainly not a republic then, I think Zuhur means nationalist themes when she talks of republican themes. I made the edit, but if one of you want to better clarify go ahead then (just don't re-add republic). If the source says "required" then we should use required. Who are we to challenge it? As for "homeland", I preferred we didn't use it, just saying Syria is enough, but I allowed it as a compromise. To be honest, I don't think we should compare "homeland" to "adopted country" since the two are not completely parallel, but since the individual issues with their usage seems unlikely to cease, I opt we drop both of them. Saying Syria and Egypt alone is fine. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- My problem was not with the republic, my problem was that AC removed "required" so the meaning of it was changed. AC threatened to ad "adopted country" as a counter if we added "homeland", so Homeland was not added, then AC added the "adopted country" so therefor homeland will also be in the article, this is fair. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer: "led to" was added by SD, and "led to being required... praising songs" is grammatically wrong. I agree, "homeland" is not completely parallel to "adopted country"; I can also argue that Egypt was Asmahan's "homeland", with reliable sources. For that reason, Diaa objected to the use of the term altogether, and he made no comment on "adopted country". Also, homeland was never used in the book to refer to her moving to Syria after her marriage to Hassan; SD takes it out of context to fabricate a different meaning. Ameer, please also address the other changes made. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- My problem was not with the republic, my problem was that AC removed "required" so the meaning of it was changed. AC threatened to ad "adopted country" as a counter if we added "homeland", so Homeland was not added, then AC added the "adopted country" so therefor homeland will also be in the article, this is fair. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I agree about homeland for that reason (Egypt could also be considered her homeland). However, I'm not too fond of using "adopted country" either. Let's be completely honest, both aren't necessary to have on Misplaced Pages. I reiterate: Egypt and Syria alone are fine. You're right about the grammar problem; we should remove "led to" and just have "required her to". --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Answer to AC: if "led to" is not in the book is of no importance, this can be changed. There are copyright issues and we can not copy exact texts from books, the important thing is that the meaning of texts are not lost, like when you removed "required". Exactly you yourself can argue that "egypt was her homeland".. but the truth can not. This would be something you made up. Diaa did not allow "adopted country" either, if that stays, then Syrian homeland(which is in the book) also stays. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Let's not bring up "homeland" and "adopted country" again. I already explained what to do with both of those terms; throw 'em out. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ameer. It's ok to remove "adopted country" too. Now, please remove also "moving back" and restore "came to Cairo", etc., as I had explained abover. Or, I can do it myself. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- "Moving back" makes sense and so does "came to Cairo" (I prefer the latter over "came back from Syria" since obviously she was in Syria. Go ahead and restore it, but keep "moving back". --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- OK, Ameer, I will stop here, though I disagree with "moving back" and a few others, and you can consider it a compromise. Thanks again for everything. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, this source, page 82, also by Zuhur, used the word "relocated" to the Jabal, which along with SD's definition of the word "relocated", emphasizes my understanding, from Zuhur's other book and all the sources that I have read, that Asmahan did not live in Syria in childhood. She lived in Lebanon and Turkey. "Moving back" has a different meaning which may be false altogether, according to these sources and SD's definition of the word. With all due respect, I will therefore restore the use of that word in recounting her marriage. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 03:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
- Lies do not come true if you repeat them several times: The full quote from page 36 is: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut. The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape. "I felt untouched by anything truly bad," she reportedly told al-tabi`i. A child would have been unafraid of the political events concerning their elders. Until the Druze rebellion broke out, Asmahan seemed unaware of the desperate times in the world she escaped." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:00, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
- Ameer, this source, page 82, also by Zuhur, used the word "relocated" to the Jabal, which along with SD's definition of the word "relocated", emphasizes my understanding, from Zuhur's other book and all the sources that I have read, that Asmahan did not live in Syria in childhood. She lived in Lebanon and Turkey. "Moving back" has a different meaning which may be false altogether, according to these sources and SD's definition of the word. With all due respect, I will therefore restore the use of that word in recounting her marriage. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 03:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Protection is over
Asmahan is no longer locked as you can see. I hope your concerns have been addressed or at least partly so. You guys could go ahead and edit the article. It's not necessary to come to the talk page before adding something, but if you think it might be just a tad controversial then please come here first. Same thing about removing anything from the article. I really hope you guys could work together to further improve this and other articles. I have to go back and focus on another article I was editing so I won't be concentrating my efforts here. If you need anything though feel free to contact me. Salam, --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Expansion of "Egypt influence" section
After finding a link so I can view text from page 13 in Asmahans Secrets I saw a lot of biased and selective texts in the Egypt influence section only telling one side of the story, and leaving the other one out. So I added, that she was required to sing praising songs for the king and songs for the republic and that Asmahan was proud of her background and put her career to the side when she believed her people needed her, that was right before the "other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt" part and was not in the article.
http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html
Direct quote from Asmahans Secretes: "Asmahan experienced a number of repercussions from her dual identity. Her family fled her homeland, Syria, and she grew so accustomed to Cairo that she longed for it after her marriage and return to Syria. She understood that options were open to her in Egypt, as a familiar stranger, that Druze identity in Syria would prohibit. Yet she was proud of her origins and patriotic enough to sacrifice her ambitions and her musical ranking in a time of crisis when she believed "her people" needed her. The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt. That loyalty is hard to measure, since she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes. Arabic poetry and song have long possessed this specific genre, panegyrics—or art in the service of empire." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Removing the tags
They no longer need to deface the article. Everything, except for one sentence I think, is cited and I don't believe there is any more OR or intricate detail. Thus, I will remove them. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for all your effort, Ameer. Although I do not like the edits by SD in the last couple of days, I will not knit-pick them. We need to end this matter. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- That's very admirable of you. I agree this issue has gone too far and we must move on. Happy editing everyone! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Discography
I tagged the Discography section for being very long, and AC removed the tag without any explanation. I've now turned it into a columned section, but it's still very long and has no references. But I'm curious about this section anyway. Am I really to believe that in her 25 years of life, she put out 40+ albums? Is this really a list of full albums, or just songs that she sang? — HelloAnnyong 12:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- songs. at that time, each song was on an LP disc. i removed your tag because, you, as usual, judge and criticize and do nothing. putting in the columns later was one way for you to light a candle, rather than curse the darkness. do you get it? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not going to feed the trolls. — HelloAnnyong 18:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- Newspaper Article al-Mada, "وشاءت لها الاقدار أن ترحل في الماء أيضا في حادث غامض في ترعة طلخا على نهر النيل قرب مدينة المنصورة يوم 14- 7 - 1944"
- Newspaper Article by Abdel-Fadil Taha 2008-05-23 Al-Quds Al-Arabi, "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع"
- Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320.
- Provence, Michael (2005). The great Syrian revolt and the rise of Arab nationalism (illustrated ed.). University of Texas Press. p. 72. ISBN 9780292706804.
- Zuhur 2000 p=36
- Zuhur 2000 p=36
- Zuhur 2000, p. 37 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFZuhur2000 (help)
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