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Revision as of 18:58, 11 December 2005

"PRINCIPAL POINT ON PREVENTION"

NOTE TO WHOEVER KEEPS EDITING THIS INFORMATION OUT AND RELEGATING IT:- It is fundamental and the most important information that as mumps is a mild illness in children in developed economies preventive measures are not necessary for them. It is further fundamental factual information that the British Medical Association and Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain actively recommended against mumps vaccination based on clinical factors. They then changed that recommendation only when it went against government policy with the introduction of MMR in 1988 into Great Britain.

For the vast majority of children mumps vaccination is a clinically unnecessary invasive medical procedure.

Further, the mass vaccination programmes are driven by the World Health Organisation, which, although meant to be nominally part of the United Nations organisation is heavily influenced directly by the pharmaceutical industry. WHO's policies on disease eradication are not debated in any western democracy nor voted on. Further, the concept of disease eradication is a misnomer as scientific study of the extensive disease statistics demonstrate from countries like the UK, USA and Australia stretching back of the order of 200 years. In particular, the trends in mortality from numerous diseases was steadily dramatically and inexorably down without vaccination over the relevant periods. It was coincidental with improved quality of drinking water, nutrition and living conditions. Mortality fell from very high percentages of population over these periods to very low levels.

It is unscientific and factually incorrect to ascribe improved disease mortality to vaccination when disease mortality was falling dramatically of its own without vaccination and the figures demonstrate in numerous cases over 200 years that mortality continued to fall at the same rates after the introduction of vaccinations in many cases.

Further, this clear and incontrovertible evidence shows that the ravages of disease in less developed economies would similarly improve just as dramatically with improved quality of drinking water, nutrition and living conditions. Vaccination does nothing in that regard and can be shown to have serious consequences for the malnourished, sick and immunocompromised, which is frequently what children in very poor circumstances can be.

We in western developed nations use vaccination as a conscience improver to demonstrate how humanitarian we are in supposedly 'eradicating' disease when we are instead keeping the people concerned in poverty through our political and economic policies and those diseases were being eradicated by other means.

Accordingly, the following text has been restored:- "As mumps is a mild illness in children in developed economies preventive measures are not necessary for them. Some paediatricians recommend vaccination against mumps where such children have not contracted the disease naturally by the age of 9.

The British Medical Association and Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain actively recommended against general mumps vaccination (see further below). They then changed that recommendation in 1987 when it became United Kingdom government policy in 1988 to introduce mass child mumps vaccination programmes with the MMR vaccine."

Further editing to restore the sense of the BMA recommendations have also been made. If anyone wishes to amend those changes, I expect to see that noted and justified so that others can follow the logic or otherwise of those making the changes.

Anon The Editor. 08:30 17 August 2005 GMT

"MMR immunization (vaccine) protects against measles, mumps and rubella and should be given to children 15 months old."

This paragraph should probably include a note about the MMR controversy so as not to appear medically POV. Lee M 01:21, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

What, the "controversy" where people fantasize without evidence that it's linked to autism? That's not a medical point of view.- Nunh-huh 08:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think most of the fuss about it was here in the UK, but MMR is a wikilink to the MMR article, which has comprehensive information, so I think that should be sufficent for anyone interested in the topic. akaDruid 10:37, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just for completeness, can someone confirm it can affect the thyroid too? When I had mumps, it affected both parotids (first one side then the other), and, then, it supposedly affected the thyroid (or so concluded the doctor, as I got a swollen neck much like goitre). It didn't leave any long-term effects on thyroid regulation, though. Qvantamon 08:14, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it can cause swelling in the thyroid, the pancreas, and other glandular tissue. - Nunh-huh 08:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bursting Ovaries

This recent addition deleted:-

"Women are at risk of ovarian swelling and possibly bursting. Women with the mumps should have abdominal pain closely monitored because the ovaries are at risk of bursting."

Proper medical references are required generally for this page but this particular recent addition especially needs a proper reference. It refers to something that does not seem to be in the normal literature about risks of mumps - this is an alleged complication that appears to have no basis in reality, according to what seems to be accepted medical knowledge. It is highly unlikely that an ovary would 'burst'. Eggs from ovaries will commonly be described as 'bursting' from an ovary in the normal course of ovulation. --Anon The Editor 21:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Prevention

I noticed that there is no mention made of avoiding contact with an infected person's saliva (from coughing and sneezing). I think that might be worth noting.

CAUSES AND RISKS

As currently stated this is not accurate and POV. It fails to deal with the risks being minimal to non-existent and makes the symptoms sound worse than they are. There is no balance here. 81.111.172.198 14:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the article doing that, or being out of line with other sources. From the article: Mumps is generally a mild illness in children... and, Orchitis (swelling of the testes) occurs in 10-20% of infected males, but sterility only rarely ensues (And that's "rare" among an already small percentage of what itself isn't serious.) a viral meningitis occurs in about 5% of those infected Any of the things it says can happen, it does not list as common. Other sources on the subject make similar statements:

Medicinenet: : Mumps can cause inflammation of tissues other than the salivary glands. Most frequently, the covering and substance of the central nervous system are inflamed causing meningoencephalitis. The pancreas is another target organ resulting in pancreatitis. Especially after adolescence, mumps tends to affect the ovary (oophoritis) and the testis (orchitis). The mature testis is particularly susceptible to damage from mumps which can lead to infertility.

Webmd : In children, mumps is generally a mild illness, and complications are rare. When complications develop, they may include: (similar list of symptoms to[REDACTED] article). Adults infected with mumps often have more severe symptoms and are more likely to develop complications than children. However, long-lasting problems from complications are rare. Indium 05:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The edit of this section at 20:42 on 19 November 2005 by user Nunh-huh is unusual. An edit which added balance to an unbalanced POV section was deleted on a basis that is not valid (stating "a page really can't cite itself....").

Further, the section has now been edited in a manner which will give the casual and the lay reader an unbalanced understanding of the risks of mumps, which are rare. It is not clear why this section continues to be edited in this manner. It is not clear why the valid edit was deleted.

Perhaps User Nunh-huh would be so kind as to explain? 81.111.172.198 17:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

What's unusual is beginning an article with a long quote. Your version says nothing different than what was already there, it just moves it up to the top. There's no imbalance here. - Nunh-huh 19:45, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

So what is the "causes" section now embellished with a {{sectNPOV}} tag? I have rewritten the intro with original material which explains that adults are more at risk for complications than children, which is true. I have also mentioned infertility, because although rare this is understandably a major issue for most of our readers. I think it would be strange to tone down this article more than necessary. If there are figures available, why hide them? I think a publically acceptable number needed to treat to prevent a case of infertility is very high. JFW | T@lk 22:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Why make a mild illness appear serious when it is not? 81.111.172.198 22:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

That is not an adequate description of my edit. I clearly stated that it is a mild illness with symptoms somewhat more severe in adolescents and grownups. Would you consider it a mild illness if you'd be unable to have children as a result? JFW | T@lk 00:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Given that you've sprinkled NPOV tags everywhere, could you state clearly which parts of the article you don't agree with? This will facilitate discussion, and enable us to reach consensus on how some things should be phrased. This does not mean that useful statistics will be removed because they sound uncomfortable to you. JFW | T@lk 00:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems certain Users (you, Nunh-huh, Geni and it will become clearer as time passes how many others) revert valid edits which accurately describe disease risks and make pages describing mild illnesses like mumps as if they are really serious illnesses. In such circumstances it would assist if you could please explain how you believe "consensus" could be achieved?

In your particular case you have deleted text proposed not by me but by a different user and that is text which came from a medical source, with a reference and which accurately describes in a neat convenient manner the main point most people, including parents like me, want and need to know about mumps. You deleted the text and replaced it with text which is just plain wrong, without a reference, which is your own wording and you did it because, as you admit yourself in your personal point of view you believe it was "better than external quote".

I note that Nunh-huh added an edit to "Prevention" that claims "Anti-vaccine activists disagree." (Revision as of 21:54, 31 August 2005) which explains where you folks are coming from. Why do none of you want ordinary people to have accurate information about childhood diseases? What is your motivation? It needs to be explained because you are claiming to seek consensus but you and the others indicate that is not what is really wanted. 81.111.172.198 07:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I asked you which sections you disagree with on a factual basis. Why are you referring to User:Geni? This user has not edited this page for a long time. Or are you simply seeking out people who have disagreed with you on your anti-vaccine quest (your contibutions are generally in that vein). Again, you are obviously trying to downplay mumps to justify an anti-vaccine stance. Unless you can state specifically what parts you disagree with we are no closer to finding a good format for this article.

The quote I removed was (1) in the intro, (2) cherry-picked by yourself. JFW | T@lk 08:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

For details of my responses please see

]

81.111.172.198 18:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Which may be summarized as "81.111.172.198 will cite no sources". - Nunh-huh 00:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Kindly ignore this vandalism and for details of my responses please see:-

]

81.111.172.198 07:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Which may be summarized as "81.111.172.198 will cite no sources". - Nunh-huh 00:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Kindly ignore this vandalism and for details of my responses please see:-

]

81.111.172.198 07:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Or not. - Nunh-huh 08:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with 198 that mumps has been made more serious by the vaccine sellers, this is just good marketing, the same happens with measles, smallpox (considered less dangerous than measles in late 1800's), and the rest, chickenpox being the latest. The mumps vaccine isn't safe or effective as proven when the last MMR vaccine was withdrawn due to the mumps portion, Urabe which is still being sold, and they admitted the Rubini strain was completely useless, and they used that for years. Then there are plenty of studies and opinions from non-vaccinator medical doctors and other doctors that mumps is beneficial and safe when handled properly, eg with vitamin C. 86.128.92.75 19:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

UK and BMA

I'm a UK doctor and a BMA member and I will enquire what the progression of opinion was, and why. It is worth pointing out that all the doctors involved in making UK immunisation policy were BMA members, and that the Association does change its views on what should be done according to factors such as whether GPs have time to do it, and whether the thing proposed is more or less importnat than other things proposed. Clever though we are, we don't react to next years events until we get there. Alas.

I've recently been treating people with Mumps. Quite what "mild ... painful swelling of the testicles" and salivary glands would be is unclear to me, apart from an argument going on...

The last chap but one I saw with Mumps looked like a hamster and walked like John Wayne, he made it home but then was admitted to hospital for several days by a colleague. The last one was just able to stand unassisted, another non-trivial infection.

I've edited a bit, heading toward a more NPV in some things and adjusting temporal flow in causation (see above). THis is spare

(“Since mumps and its complications are very rarely serious there is little indication for the routine use of mumps vaccine”. ). By 1987/8 just prior to the introduction to the United Kingdom of the MMR vaccine on 1st October 1988 this recommendation had been altered to "Mumps vaccine is not at present recommended for routine use in the UK" . By 1989 the recommendation had been dropped and not replaced. It instead stated "See under MMR vaccine ..." and makes no recommendation of its own, stating in line with the then new general health policy "Health authorities will have an obligation to ensure that every child has received MMR vaccine by the time of entry to primary school, unless there is a valid contra-Indication, parental refusal, or laboratory evidence of previous infection. Vaccination records should be checked; where there is no record of MMR vaccination or where the child has received single-antigen measles vaccine, parents will be advised that their children should receive MMR vaccine." ). Midgley (talk · contribs)

Thanks Adrian, I can quite agree with that. JFW | T@lk 00:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a surprise. Dr Midgley was a vocal proponent of vaccination on the BMJ website, so I believe. Vaccinators always have vaccine disease stories, what they don't tell you is the fact they had probably been vaccinated (most would have had MMR)--try and get vaccine status from them and you will find they never look into that, which tells a story---even they admitted one mumps vaccine was completely useless, even though used for years, probably for decades. One study in Switzerland found 75% of mumps cases had been vaccinated! Also they 'forget' about all of the vaccine damaged children from mumps vaccine, the last MMR vaccine was withdrawn when the mumps component, Urabe, was found to be causing meningitis. Have a look at this story and see which you prefer, mumps or meningitis , bearing in mind the vaccine wouldn't have prevented mumps, and bearing in mind there is a large body of opinion that mumps is a BENEFICIAL disease. If you think they are putting kids before profit, ask them why they are still selling that unsafe Urabe vaccine to third world countries 15 years after it was withdrawn here? Perhaps Dr Midgley would explain that, third world children are even less immune to vaccines, most being malnourished and consequently immune deficient? 86.128.169.252 08:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

alas, I can't work out what if anything is being said here. Or by whom. Midgley 00:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

It's quite simple really, the vaccine is unsafe and ineffective, and the disease is safe and beneficial if handled properly. I have put it here for anyone interested . If you can show me how to get a login name then lets go for that if it makes you happy. 86.128.169.252 11:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Regrettably, if User Midgley let kids catch mumps then he would not have adults in his surgery walking like John Wayne with faces like hamsters or needing hospitalisation. Kids would just have mild cases of mumps (at least 30 percent will have no symptoms whatsoever) and develop lifetime immunity. But as a strident proponent of mumps vaccination he chose to remove the quote “Since mumps and its complications are very rarely serious there is little indication for the routine use of mumps vaccine”. ). So much claims to NPOV contributions - looks like he chooses to remove some attempt at balance and make the page POV. So why do all these geniuses want to use Misplaced Pages to provide inaccurate information to the world? 81.111.172.198 05:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Stop making personal attacks, 81.111.172.198, such as referring to people as "vaccinators" (which coming from you is a personal attack). Deal with the issues. I have no problem with citing BNF #11. Please tell me why known complications of mumps should not be mentioned in the intro. We can work on this article in a collaborative fashion if you calmly and without further name-calling list the points you have problems with. We can do another RFC if you so desire. Say, why can't you get a login name? JFW | T@lk 10:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Referring to people as 'vaccinators' isn't a personal attack, unlike 'anti-vaccinator' which has a slide attached to it as per Word Game, in that you are meant to go down the preset thinking to believe 'anti-vaccinators' are paranoid, conspiracy nuts, or worse--Barbara Loe Fisher points out this ploy . Labelling you as a 'vaccinator' is to remove your attempt to make out you are unbiased over vaccination, as the Chinese Proverb says: "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by the right names." I am just removing your cloak of impartiality, which you find annoying. Your attempt to deflect this fact into "personal attack" was to be expected. You may even be fooling yourself into thinking you aren't a 'vaccinator'. You would have to search far and wide to find a medical doctor who wasn't a vaccinator, unless you went to whale.to. 86.128.169.252 11:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I do not claim being impartial. You're playing the word game just as bad. Calling people "vaccinators" is a word game. Just because I am licenced to prescribe vaccines and would if was professionally required does not make me a vaccinator. That's a plain strawman and it obscures the issues. But I asked 81.111.172.198 for a list of objections, and I agreed to collaborate nicely. Your attempts to polarise are actually just annoying. (Cue to another conspiracy theory and name-calling by John.) JFW | T@lk 13:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

This page is not neutral. User Jfdwolff keeps on reverting correctly made edits. Irrespective of what others do to ensure the page is correct. She and her collaborators simply revert text which sets the record straight.

Further, the amendments by User Midgeley to remove text that demonstrated the mildness of mumps and the lack of any need for medical intervention was embarrassing for User Midgeley and the British Medical Association of which he admits membership. This demonstrates partiality of the BMA to follow the British government line. This is despite medical interventions which they have previously admitted are unnecessary then being promoted by their members like User Midgeley.

The BMA have been well rewarded with large pay rises for British doctors in the recent pay bargaining on behalf of their members. This even includes recommending Hepatitis B vaccination for babies when there is no threat to babies from Hepatitis B but there is a proven threat of multiple sclerosis, which has recently been demonstrated in the French vaccine damage litigation and published in a peer reviewed medical publication.

Additionally, it is regrettably nonsense of User:Jfdwolff to make pretence to 86.128.169.252 "We can work on this article in a collaborative fashion". User Jfdwolff just changes or reverts anything that does not comply with her point of view. There has been no change in the nature of mumps to make the BMA's recommendation not to vaccinate any the less valid.

What is more, User:Jfdwolff then tries hard to take everyone's eye off the ball with inappropriate arguments such a whether or not "vaccinator" is an accurate description. There is also copious evidence of her and her collaborators engaging in inappropriate name calling, labelling and abuse instead of applying a proper approach to discussion and argument.

The facts are that if User Midgley let kids catch mumps then he would not have adults in his surgery walking like John Wayne with faces like hamsters or needing hospitalisation. Kids would just have mild cases of mumps (at least 30 percent will have no symptoms whatsoever) and develop lifetime immunity.

Further, bearing in mind User:Jfdwolff's history of interventions all over Misplaced Pages to revert any additions which indicate medical interventions like vaccination are sometimes unnecessary or harmful it would seem "vaccinator" is an accurate description of a proponent of vaccination who engages in vaccination for the sake of it without regard to the need or consequences. Conversely to simply dismiss others as "anti-vaccinators" as if they were following the same line in the opposite direction just a blindly is inappropriate, particularly for those who do not but who sensibly look to facts and do not claim there is no place for vaccination should it be beneficial, safe, necessary and effective. That is a sensible line and with which any responsible and reasonable person would follow. However, that is not happening in the case of User:Jfdwolff and her collaborators whose approach is to revert anything they disagree with irrespective of the sense of it and to edit anything they disagree with until the sense is changed to their POV. We have seen this before with the removal of quotes from medical sources. There is nothing to indicate User:Jfdwolff and her collaborators will co-operate or collaborate in a sensible fashion. The claims to any interest in any such approach are not borne out by the evidence.

User:Jfdwolff has provided no justification for reverting the NPOV tag and reverted it without any discussion notwithstanding that it is appropriately placed on this page. Accordingly, I am reversing User:Jfdwolff's reversion. This page is misleading from start to finish because it is denying those who turn to it an accurate and reliable description of mumps.

It is also surprising that User:Jfdwolff claims to be licensed to prescribe vaccines bearing in mind there is no one of the name J F D Wolff on either the Dutch medical register or the UK medical register. User:Jfdwolff claims to be Dutch and working the UK. Shortly after this point was raised previously, User:Jfdwolff then changed the tag she uses to JFW.

Additionally, it is interesting that User:Jfdwolff complains of personal attacks and suchlike when Misplaced Pages is littered with the personal attacks of her and her collaborators.

Look also at the comment to the edits made recently by User:Jfdwolff on this article "rv 81.111.172.198 - the same old story" and "the user who thought this was POV has disappeared, and peace & quiet return to the mumps article". These are personal attacks and abusive. Looks very much like the same old story from User:Jfdwolff.

I look forward to hearing from User:Jfdwolff and her colleagues on these matters for sound and sensible discussion aimed at consensus. However, the history on Wikipedis indicates that is unlikely to occur and it will simply run into the same old approaches seen time and time again.

No adequate explanation has been provided by User:Jfdwolff for the reversion of the NPOV tag but adequate explanation has been provided here for restoring that proper edit.

81.111.172.198 18:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)