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Important — please note The Committee, in passing the motion to open this case, provided explicit direction to all editors participating in this case: "Editors are expected to observe appropriate decorum on the case pages and in any other discussion of this incident." "Editors are instructed to refrain from disclosing on-wiki the name or other identifying information concerning any editor who does not edit under or disclose on-wiki his or her real-world identity. Any evidence that would have the potential effect of making such a disclosure shall not be posted on-wiki, but shall be e-mailed to the Arbitration Committee. The committee will take appropriate steps to ensure that no editor is sanctioned based on private evidence without an appropriate opportunity to respond to such evidence, while also seeking to ensure that editors' identifying information is not unnecessarily disclosed." "All editors, whether or not they are potential parties to the case, are strongly urged to exercise consideration and discretion in dealing both on- and off-wiki with all aspects of this highly sensitive situation. Any behavior that would unnecessarily inflame or widen the dispute should be avoided." The Clerk for this case is KnightLago (talk · contribs) who will be assisted by non-recused members of the Clerk team in enforcing the above rules. The Clerks will, wherever it deems necessary, refactor and remove statements where they violate the above directions, or where they violate the general standards of decorum and Misplaced Pages policies. The Clerks will, where required for particular egregious or repetitive violations, ban participants from the case pages for an appropriate period of time. Both the refactoring of statements, and case page bans, that are implemented by the Clerks, can be appealed to the Committee. If any user requires assistance in submitting private evidence to the Arbitrators in the method requested by Committee (see the second bullet point, above), please contact a member of the Clerks or, alternatively, an Arbitrator directly. —User:KnightLago (talk) 02:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Motion to open case

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(archived from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests, 00:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC))

Arbitrator votes and comments

On a motion, a majority of all the active, non-recused arbitrators is required for adoption. There are currently 11 arbitrators listed as active, so a majority is 6. If any arbitrator listed as inactive votes on this motion, he or she shall be moved to active for purposes of this case and the majority adjusted accordingly.

Support:

1. As proposer. This situation requires our expedited attention and under the particular circumstances it is appropriate for us to proceed nostra sponte rather than wait for a formal case to be filed. I would like to reemphasize that nothing in this motion, or any other action taken today, reflects a predetermination of any aspect of the matter. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
2. Support the motion. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
3. Support, and I strongly endorse the bit about this matter not being prejudiced. We may discover that it is a fabrication. We can only determine an appropriate course by allowing the parties to be confronted with the evidence against them—and this isn't suited for a public forum. On-wiki evidence from the community would also be helpful in corroborating or disproving the existence of misconduct. Cool Hand Luke 23:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
4. Support - per preceding. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
5. Vassyana (talk) 23:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
6. Support; also without prejudice. It is important to note that the celerity with which the committee is acting in this matter is borne not out of the substance of the alleged mailing list but from the combination of the gravity of the allegations and the significant risk to privacy of a large number of editors. — Coren  23:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
7. Support; — Rlevse • Talk • 23:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Oppose:

Abstain:

Clerk notes

Question: The notes below are written as though this is a full motion; for the purposes of knowing when to open the case, are we looking for a majority as suggested below or the usual net four? Hersfold 22:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(not clerk or arb, clerk should move if need be) I'm not sure if a case can be opened by motion (if it can, it makes the whole net 4 rule moot), but it can probably fixed by interpreting all aye votes as accept votes as well as votes in favor of the motion's conditions and modifications on the case, and any nay votes as no to both, unless the arbitrator indicates otherwise.--Tznkai (talk) 22:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought about your point before I made the motion; theoretically, if a case was about to be declined under "net 4" despite majority support for acceptance, a disappointed arbitrator could offer a case-by-motion motion instead. This would obviously be a misuse of this procedure (which I've just invented, by the way). I'm sure no arbitrator would act in this manner—although it does illustrate a drawback of the net 4 rule, which many of us have said needs revising (but this isn't the time for that discussion). Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• Recused MBisanz 22:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can I be removed as a participant?

Can I be removed as a participant? Although I am flattered to be included, I don't really have much to offer this arbcom. I just made a general comment on the ANI about cabals. I have no first hand knowledge of this super-duper secret mailing list. Although I have had a little contact with Russavia, it was simply to offer him advice about his edits, etc. Thank you. Ikip (talk) 01:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions listed in that section and contact the Arbitration Committee's mailing list. Daniel (talk) 01:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Daniel, as always, you are a wonderful help. :) Ikip (talk) 01:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Extend this motion

Is it possible to expand the scope of this particular motion to include all specific geographic areas? I put to you, that it is time that the issue is of private, off wiki conversations regarding any action, and particularly any policy issues, is brought into full exposure of the wikipedia community at large. Regards, Hamster Sandwich (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I would expect this to be both unlikely (because of no evidence), and unwieldy to widen the scope that much. Mind you, this case may end up establishing a number of principles of broader relevance than to this specific incident. — Coren  01:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The creation of those broader principles can be the only fruit of this case because the source of this case is an action that is a crime in most jurisdictions and a gross violation of privacy. Anything else would encourage crime by actually making it worth wile for the perpetrator. --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 09:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

Since I am listed as a party to this case, and there seems to be no provision for public statements as in other cases, but I dislike doing Misplaced Pages business per e-mail, I am posting my statement in this matter here.

I was first made aware of the (alleged) existence of this mailing list in the WP:ANI thread of 17 September 2009, and have not seen the supposedly leaked archives. I have not participated in any offwiki coordination related to Eastern Europe in general or administrative actions in this area in particular. I am not aware of any attempts, as has allegedly been the purpose of this mailing list, to influence me offwiki. My administrator and arbitration enforcement actions in this area are all based solely on the requests made and evidence presented on the administrators' and arbitration enforcement noticeboards, and this will continue to be the case.  Sandstein  07:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, as a suggestion, posting this as part of your "evidence" section would likely make it more prominent for the arbitrators. Daniel (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not evidence, just an assertion of facts. But I'll do so nonetheless.  Sandstein  12:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that the evidence page will double as a statement page given the unique circumstances that surrounded the opening of this case by expedited motion. I will give appropriate consideration in terms of evidence section length to parties who choose to make short assertions of facts in statements (such as the one above) as part of their evidence. Daniel (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Request to be included in the arbitration.

I am a member of this list and I hold some VERY STRONG opinions about whats going on here. Therefore I request to be included as an involved party. The whole issue presents a several social, moral and ideological problems for me.

1. What editors do in their off wiki activities in unofficial PRIVATE channels(bedroom talk, calls, etc) is not something that should be used to judge actions on WP. WP does not OWN its editors.
2. Is it acceptable to hack an account of a person to obtain so called "evidence", distribute this private information far and wide and then use it to harass them? Cases in any form of judicial system can not be based on STOLEN and UNVERIFIED evidence because it validates crime.
3. Am I guilty of something by just belonging in this list even tho I have been almost totally inactive in WP during the existence of this list?

By taking up this case ArbCom has basically said, that it is OK to steal private information and use it for an attack on Misplaced Pages, directly supporting a crime.

Crime against the privacy of me, all people on that list and most of all, Tymek.

The only correct and nondiscriminatory action is to dismiss this evidence and declare that ArbCom/Wikipedia does not handle fruits of a CRIME to discourage future hackers from going on fishing expeditions into private lives of their fellow editors.

This statement is posted here because I want it to be public, not e-mailed to select few eyes.

--Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Please explain how you are involved in this particular issue; ie. were you on the mailing list in question, or were you discussed on the mailing list? Merely being "interested" or "holding strong opinions on the issue" does not merit being added to the party list. You are still free to comment and present evidence as a non-party. Daniel (talk) 12:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought my first sentence above made it clear. I am on that list. Please add me to the case.--Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 12:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

My apologies, I confess my eyes were drawn directly to the capitals that followed it :) Given the fact that you were on the mailing list, you certainly fall within the criteria used to determine the initial list of parties; hence I have added you to the list. Please note that this decision is provisional and could be overruled by the Arbitrators, but I think based on the facts that it won't be. Regards, Daniel (talk) 12:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you :) --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 12:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Russavia

Could someone please lift the sanctions on Russavia imposed by Sandstein (Sandstein still refuses to do so) The Arbcom can look at the evidence themselves to see why this is necessary, I will not break confidentiality here. Howver, the community support, and reasons, for these sanctions now look very dodgy indeed. Pending the outcome of this investigation Russavia should be allowed to edit normall, Irpen and Ghirlandajo shpould be requested to return to normal editing. The sooner these miscarriages of justice are righted - the better. Giano (talk) 10:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Requests like this and acting on them are exactly what I mean by validating a crime. --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 10:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Alexia, still on the welcoming committee - are you? Giano (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

What committee? Ive been inactive over a year now. I came back for just this case because I don't like cyber crime and sites like WP validating it as OK for insite politics. --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 10:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Giano: I told Russavia and repeat it here: right now the best course for his is to stay cool and stay aside from public discussions. Lifting censorship right now will provoke further conflict. The ban actually protects him now - if it is lifted and if Russavia replies to provocations, he'll be lynched in an hour. NVO (talk) 10:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

That may or may not be so, but concencus for supporting these sanctions was orchestrated by this group. (The Arbcom have proof of this in their possession, I cannot currently say more) so it is definitley an injustice. You cannot keep a person in prison because, allthough innocent, they will be very cross if released - well you can't in this small pocket of Europe - I thought all civilised communities felt the same way. Giano (talk) 10:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Consensus cannot be orchestrated. To imply it can is a strange concept. Consensus forms from input of individuals. I don't have a clue what he was sanctioned for and I honestly don't care. What I care about is stated above. Validation of a crime.--Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 11:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Consensus cannot be orchestrated. Right you are. But harassment and provocations can be. I personally beleive, it's what this list was all about. Please feel free to prove me wrong - if I am, of course. As to the ban, it was imposed after the user was provoked, by a group of users, who have discussed their tactics before, and acted in concord against Russavia. Clearly this is not all Russiavia's guilt, as the admin thought, when banning him. And, I'd say, every each of those on mailing list, who hunted their fellow user, actually attacked him psycologically - which, in fact, is a criminal act in most states. Just a thing to consider, before discussing hackers and ways to punish their crimes.FeelSunny (talk) 16:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with FeelSunny here. Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress is a tort. As is Assault. I'm not suggesting any legal actions, I'm just listing causes of torts; perhaps people who are claiming that mere hacking is a crime, should do the same. I remember Russavia's edits when I first met him on Misplaced Pages, and his edits of today. He was clearly, and blatantly provoked. Either that, or he was abducted by aliens, schooled in bashing, and returned by E.T. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I am the admin responsible for imposing an indefinite block on Russavia, not Sandstein. I do not agree that his block should be lifted, though I do think he should be permitted to submit evidence in this case. I received no contact from anyone alleged to be part of this "group" and so it's difficult to say they exerted influence on me and thereby "orchestrated" the sanction I imposed. My sanction was also imposed entirely independently of any influence from Sandstein. I imposed the sanction based on Russavia's behaviour and not for any other reason. Good Ol’factory 11:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Fortunately, you are a mere Admin, so one can expect and hopes for better and more rational outcome from a member of the Arbcom. If not, then this mailing list needs to see the light of day, and it shall, so that all can see how naive and orchestrated you actions have been. I expect to see fairplay on Misplaced Pages, and be assured we shall have it - one way or the other. Giano (talk) 12:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

"Fair play" notion on wikipedia can not be rated higher and more important than laws that govern what is a crime and what is not and an individuals right to privacy. --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 12:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

My actions were not "orchestrated". I had no contacts with and nothing to do with any of the users in question. I didn't have a horse in this race, unlike some. I think it's easy to tell who did and who didn't. Good Ol’factory 12:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If not, then this mailing list needs to see the light of day, and it shall, ...

Is it just me or did Giano just publicly threatened to post information that includes private details about other editors?--Staberinde (talk) 12:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that is at all what Giano said, to be honest. Merely having the details that ArbCom provide in their final decision, published publicly, is providing the mailing list with a degree of "sunlight" (to continue the metaphor).

That being said, as a general warning, anyone publishing emails will be proverbially hung, drawn and quartered - I'm sure everyone involved in this case is sensible enough to see that ArbCom has made it pretty darned clear that this will be cracked down on. Daniel (talk) 12:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

No, given that Giano has been going around bragging about how he's seen this "archive", I think this is a very clear threat to publish the information from this "archive" if he doesn't get his way. This is aside from the fact that neither I nor anyone else with the authority to do so has given Giano the permission to look through my personal private emails (whether fake, genuine or doctored) which are supposedly included in this "archive". Giano, since you are in possession of illegally obtained private emails, do not disseminate them in any way and I demand that you delete the relevant files as you have no right to posses or view them. I also want to ask you how exactly you obtained these private hacked files. If they were sent to you by a Wiki user then I think this needs to be explained right here. If you obtained them in some other way then you need to inform the concerns persons (ArbCom, myself, others) via private email to prevent further threats to security and privacy.radek (talk) 15:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Giano, please, don't get violent. I guess we should all trust NVO when he tells us to take a breather. Now, Ol'Factory, you say that your action on the ban of Russavia was independent of Sandstein. However, you also stated that: " have not demonstrated much desire to change your behaviour, and most of the extended discussion has been your attempts to punch logical holes in the discretionary ban put in place by an administrator. In so doing, you mentioned that according to the logic of that admin, your only option would be to recommend legal action." I think we both know that the admin Russavia talked about was Sandstein. Thus, one can argue, that it was Sandstein's actions, that promoted Russivia's conduct, that earned him your ban. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It would make no sense to unblock previously banned people. As the clerk team is going to see for themselves the people on the mail-list will in general be critics of the modern-day Russian government. The people apparently 'targeted' on the mail list were defenders of the Russian government. To say that all of those have now been a victim is a mouthful as many of those users have been extremely disruptive in the past. No sockpuppeting or tag teaming from any critical user(s) justifies that. And what makes us believe that pro-Putin editors never talked to each other in private? I've seen them exchange e-mails through wikipedia and I've also seem them act like web brigades. Should we look through their msn / irc chatlogs, gmail accounts and phone conversations if they ever discussed something not kosher? I guess they can be happy their accounts didn't get hacked. -------- It wouldnt be surprising if Russavia was discussed a lot on this mail-list. As I showed recently his editing pattern on Russian related subjects was always in the interest of Russian history or the Russian government and he edited on average 55 hours a week which included a large amount of edit warring. It's no wonder that if users who edited critical of the Russian government spoke to each other in private about wikipedia they would mention Russavia because there was no way for them to avoid him, but that doesn't mean at all that they stalked him. -------- I feel that the accusations of Alex Bakharev should be carefully looked at. He mentioned several users of which I severely doubt they breahed the rules of wikipedia. Being on the mailing-list doesn't make someone guilty. Sure people with sock puppets should get sanctioned, but speaking to each other in private about wikipedia is not a crime. Grey Fox (talk) 14:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Grey Fox, without going into discussions further, I'd say your last message looks very much an ad hominem, more exactly, the abusive ad personam type, hence violates the formal logic. It all also makes me wonder why this case of (alledged) canvassing and Harassment draws so much attention from those anti-Russian users that are not (alledgedly) on the list.FeelSunny (talk) 16:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that's unwarranted. Some people exchange e-mails for fun. Or to share each others' views. Or to find out about life in other countries. It's because of stuff like this, that people are afraid to exchange e-mails. Considering that all of my Misplaced Pages work, well 95% of it, revolves around the 2008 South Ossetia War Article, if I choose to talk to some pro-Russian editors about education, or about sports, I find nothing wrong with that. All of my edits are kept on my talkpage, none of which is archived. The archive I have, is what used to be on my user page, but has been archived. I may talk about uncontroversial parts of the article, such as the Order of Battle, and even that talk is on my talkpage. I would never hide anything about the actual, and controversial article parts that I edit. And I would never, NEVER launch a psychological attack, en masse, against a fellow Wikipedian. Don't try to turn a psychological attack against a fellow Wikipedian, into pro-Putin camp vs. anti-Putin camp. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 18:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Man, you do not need to provide any reasonable arguments back when a counterpart is only able to give ad hominems. Ad hominems speak for themselves, and need no reaction other than telling what they are. When Grey Fox says it's ok for those Estern Europeans to gather in a web-brigade b/c it was (as he thinks) practiced by pro-Russian editors before, you do not need to pursue any discussions any further. Everything is said already. FeelSunny (talk) 19:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The best way to catch a spider is show him a spider. Giano (talk) 18:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

My activity

Just so everyone knows, I'm going to be no-where to be seen until around about 0600 (UTC) tomorrow. Given this is still very early stages in this case, I suspect there may be some urgent issues that will need clerk attention during the time between now and then. If there is, please contact an Arbitrator or another non-recused Clerk who will hopefully be able to help you.

Cheers,
Daniel (talk) 12:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Disappointed

As someone who has blocked (by my count) 6 of the participants in this case I'm a bit disappointed not to be involved. Does arbcomm have something against me? William M. Connolley (talk) 15:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Er. The list of parties is very rough (initially approximated by participation in the ANI thread). The parties will certainly change. If the Eye of Mordor ArbCom glances in your direction, I'm sure that we will immediately add you as a party. Cool Hand Luke 17:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Questions to ArbCom

1. What kind of evidence does ArbCom want in this case? Since most of us don't have access to the off-wiki evidence, it is impossible to for us to know which diffs really are relevant to the mailing list affair and which are not.
2. Is ArbCom going to be both the prosecutor and the jury regarding the off-wiki evidence, or will those few admins who have access to the material be the prosecutors?
3. Is ArbCom going to make some of this evidence public?
4. Will ArbCom verify the authenticity of the off-wiki evidence itself, or does it want some kind of help?
5. Does ArbCom need help in determining whether the mail list discussions led to disruptive behaviour on Misplaced Pages? Offliner (talk) 15:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

In short:

1. It is expected that the members of the mailing list will be the ones providing most of the evidence, given that the mailing list itself is at the center of the incident.
2. It may be more appropriate to compare this case to a coroner's inquest than a trial; the role of prosecutor applies only when the proceeding is adversarial, not when it is an investigation
3. That depends what you mean by "evidence" and "public". Any decision that would rest on evidence that should remain private will state what the evidence is, and may selectively quote redacted portions of it. It is unlikely that significant parts of the mail archive will be published, especially given that most of it is unrelated to Misplaced Pages at all and may disclose information with significant privacy impact
4. The authenticity, reliability and accuracy of private evidence is always an important factor. This is something that will occupy an important part of the investigation in the days to come.
5. I expect that I will ask the parties (and, indeed, the community) a number of specific inquiries of that nature during the case, where evidence of specific incidents will be requested.

Right now, I'm still organizing and preparing, so much of the answers above are preliminary. I hope it's enough to give a good idea, though. — Coren  16:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

My intent here is to make it clear that taking any action wiki side based on peoples private conversations and venting is inappropriate. If there would have been violations in the actions on WP, they should and would have been noted at the time. What's on the table now is editors right to have private conversations. I would like to assume we all have that right. Therefore I refuse to discuss any of this "evidence". --Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 16:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I've responded to that concern there, though I expect you'll not agree with it. — Coren  18:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers, Coren. I already collected some evidence that I think might be relevant or useful to ArbCom: . You said that members of the mailing list are expected to provide most of the evidence. I'm not a member of the list, but do you think it would be helpful if I posted this on the evidence page? Offliner (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Any editor is allowed to post evidence, and encouraged to do so when they can shed light and help getting a complete picture. — Coren  18:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Request to be included in the arbitration

I have been editing the 2008 South Ossetia War article, extensively. I have been also dealing with POV Forks as a result of said article, and other POV matters. Contrary to the expectation of eternal edit-warring, the general consensus on one of Misplaced Pages's most controversial talkpages has been largely reached. There have been no more major arguments in the two week period, and for that article, it's quite an achievement. Since you have asked for evidence that might corroborate the e-mail evidence, I can provide such evidence; just include me and let me prepare my arguments.

As per the silly comment that this investigation will only encourage crime, I have but one thing to say: What crime was committed? Mere hacking, in and of itself, is not a crime. One can hack someone else's computer, take no other actions, not damage anything during the hacking process, and thus, no crime has occurred. The crime of "hacking" results from an action being taken, that follows the hacking, such as stealing money, stealing legally obtained information, or revealing personal information. None of this took place. One cannot use illegal Misplaced Pages tactics, if indeed this is the case, and then complain that said tactics have been illegally exposed. An undercover officer doesn't read a drug dealer his Miranda Rights. Illegal actions do not enjoy the same protection as legal ones. I have never heard a case, where an e-mail club was hacked and exposed as illegal, where no private information has been exposed, and where the hacker was punished. In order to encourage crime, the investigation must recognize crime, and here no crime of "hacking" took place. If you illegally stole money, and someone hacked your account and gave that money to the government that you stole it from, you do not get immunity; you go to jail. If you illegally try to influence the knowledge and mindset of Misplaced Pages readers by a secret e-mail cabal, and someone hacks and exposes your cabal, and returns the proper knowledge to his fellow Misplaced Pages readers, then no crime took place, except the crime that you committed.

Has a crime been committed? Is there an e-mail cabal out there? Will people receive Misplaced Pages "vacations"? We don't know. That's what were are here to find out. But to claim that this committee should stop working and investigating a potential crime, because someone else believes that a crime has been committed, where no crime took place, is absurd! It's like Bernie Madoff claiming protection from lawsuits to avoid exposing his "business secrets". HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 16:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior, you state "I can provide such evidence;" (to corroborate the "evidence") so I'm going to ask you directly. Do you have access to one or more of the supposed "archives" and if so, how did you obtain this access?radek (talk) 17:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Do I have such evidence? I shall quote from my previous post, and I believe the quote shall answer your question: "We don't know." In other words, I have no idea. That's why I want this to go forward, to find out. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Another Clarification: the evidence I was talking about, that I do have, either links to, or is part of the 2008 South Ossetia War Article. You are more than welcome to check out that fine article, and dig through its not-so-fine archives. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking if I even should comment on your post because I think that this case "stinks" and there is lot's more to come, possibly scary things, because all this is sooooo illegal and on top of that in my opinion we are dealing with pros, whoever they are, but after reading your post I started to shake my head with disbelieve..:) and decided to comment a little. So according to you it is O.K. to hack into somebody's account, steal private e-mails containing private information, possibly manipulate their content to make sure they fit your agenda and then post them for other people to see as evidence? Right? Did I understand you correctly? :)--Jacurek (talk) 16:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Not quite. You wrote: "So according to you it is O.K. to hack into somebody's account, steal private e-mails containing private information, possibly manipulate their content to make sure they fit your agenda and then post them for other people to see as evidence?" I specifically stated: "One can hack someone else's computer, take no other actions, not damage anything during the hacking process, and thus, no crime has occurred." What you are describing are actions contrary to my post. Stealing is a crime. Manipulating is a crime. Posting private information for others to see, that's a crime. That would be taking other actions, and thus would be quite contrary to my post, saying "take no other actions". If you have anymore questions please ask, I'm always happy to clarify :) HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Is it OK for a burglar to enter your house, take pictures of everything you own and then post them for the world to see? Nothing was taken after all...--Alexia Death the Grey (talk) 17:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If he just takes pictures, then he isn't a burglar :) A Burglary requires a "felony committed on the premises". HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me answer the question: if someone hacks into my e-mail, and doesn't touch any of my legal e-mails, which are all of them, I wouldn't really care, because I have nothing to hide. Comparing an e-mail to a house is a bit, well, it's a poor comparison. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 17:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, could you clarify what makes you an involved party in this issue? I assume you weren't in mailing list, and so far you haven't been mentioned anywhere as "potential victim" either. Currently I don't see how you are more involved then many many other editors who have interacted with alleged mailing list members on Eastern Europe articles (German Expulsion, Polish-Ukrainian WWII disputes, Paneriai naming, etc.).--Staberinde (talk) 19:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Georgia is part of Eastern Europe: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1102477.stm as is Russia. I devote, on average, 30 minutes a day, some days much more, others much less, to the 2008 South Ossetia War article. I can assure you Staberinde, the edit-warring that took place there, as well as ten people miraculously voting one way in 24 hours, as well as a strategic voting campaign to get a certain POV Fork going, and someone from the list possibly using Samogitia as a sock-puppet, etc. If there is a mailing cabal out there, I can assure you that it operated in 2008 South Ossetia War article, and as one of the main editors of that article, that makes me the victim of these illegal tactics. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 22:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I dont remember claiming that Georgia or Russia are not part of Eastern Europe, my point was actually that Eastern Europe in meaning relevant to this case includes also lots of other stuff from Ukraine to Lithuania to Germany etc. There are/were lots of disputes including crapload of editors, I don't see how South Ossetia war is particularly different from all those various disputes until someone who has actually seen this supposed evidence makes such claim. You can't really make any reliable claims about being victim until someone who has seen appropriate evidence confirms it, assuming that you haven't seen what is in those infamous archives yourself.--Staberinde (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, why don't you actually let me make the arguments, and then the committee can decide if it's relevant or not. Use of scare tactics, and similar methods to silence the investigation, or those participating in it, will not work. Statements, like I've seen earlier, such as "if you allow this, you are encouraging crime" or "you cannot really make any reliable claims" - is just very silly. Anyone, who has previously not been proven wrong countless times, can make a reliable claim, that's why it is called a claim. If if I am not included as a party, I still get to present my facts, and then let the arbitrators decide, as per Coren: "Any editor is allowed to post evidence, and encouraged to do so when they can shed light and help getting a complete picture. — Coren (talk) 18:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)". I've never heard of evidence in court being thrown out before it was presented, just because someone thinks it's irrelevant. Same goes for an arbitration committee. I fail to see what you are trying to do here Staberinde, what you are trying to gain. And I already said, I don't have the mailing list, so stop it with the veiled accusations. The reason my post is taking a while, is because, instead of just listing evidence linked to 2008 South Ossetia War, I actually want to get it organized and make it easier to read. That takes time. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)