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Title

I'm wondering if we should move this to another title, as the boy is only part of the story. The usual thing would be to call it "Death of Muhammad al-Durrah," but that would be unlikely to stick, so I was wondering about "Muhammad al-Durrah affair." That's the title the French Misplaced Pages uses. The Spanish uses "death of." Sweden and Norway use the name, like us. SlimVirgin 18:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be supportive of that. Millmoss (talk) 18:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm on the fence. The term "affair" sounds off to me. It looks like several articles use "death of" (Death of Jesus, Death of Adolf Hitler, Death of Michael Jackson, Death of Neda Agha-Soltan). I'm trying to think of similar articles to use as a guideline... we could consider splitting the article into two, like the John F. Kennedy assassination and the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories articles. ← George 20:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm opposed to such a splitting, as it pre-supposes that one view (the boy was killed) is correct, while the other (the event was staged) is not. Why does "affair" sound off? WOudl you prefer "Muhammad al-Durrah media controversy"? Millmoss (talk) 20:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

With the above suggestion, I'm using articles such as 2006 Lebanon War photographs controversies or Killian documents controversy as a model. Millmoss (talk) 20:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be opposed to splitting too, because it would create two POV forks. And we can't call it "death of," given that that's disputed. I know the disputants are in the minority, but not to the point where they can be ignored entirely. In what way does "affair" feel off to you, George? SlimVirgin 20:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The Death of Adolf Hitler article mentions "rumours that Hitler may have survived the end of World War II", yet it still has that title. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the view that the boy is still alive and hiding somewhere (on that island with Elvis perhaps?) would be the extreme minority view (versus the more common minority view that he was shot, intentionally or accidentally, by Palestinians instead of Israelis).

Splitting may not be the best idea, though I'm trying to think of one title that would satisfy everyone. Do you have examples of other articles using the word "affair" in their title? The Watergate affair, for instance, redirects to Watergate scandal, and if affair is used synonymously with "scandal" that would imply a very specific POV in this case. ← George 20:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I honestly don't see the point of moving it to another title. The existing title is short and to the point. It's not as if we're trying to disambiguate this article from another one of a similar name (as in the case of Jesus, Michael Jackson, Hitler, Kennedy etc). The current name causes no confusion and doesn't overlap with anything else; if it isn't broken why fix it? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

This is a fair point. What's the impetus for move? ← George 20:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We're increasingly not supposed to name non-bios after the names of individuals. When such a article is about a death, it's moved to Death of. We can't do that in this case because the death is disputed, so it leaves us in a bind. I'm thinking this article has the potential to get to FAC, so I'm trying to anticipate objections. SlimVirgin 20:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Though I suppose the title "Death of" would still convey that the article was about the reported death, which would accommodate the minority view. SlimVirgin 20:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a valid reason to consider a rename. I was thinking about "Muhammad al-Durrah shooting", but, just like the death, some dispute that he was even shot. It's probably just not possible to please everyone. ← George 20:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I'll take your word for it about the naming of non-bios. "Death of" would be the best title. George, some people dispute that Elvis is dead but we still have a Death of Elvis Presley article! There's only so much we can do to accomodate all shades of opinion. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

In the case of Elvis, we have an autopsy confirming he's dead. That makes claims that he is alive a fringe conspiracy. In this case, we have no autopsy, no body, and no bullets. What we have is a claim by Enderlin that he removed a death scene - a claim know known to be false. We also have testimony of a the cameraman, who was found by a court of law to be an unreliable witness, and who is on record telling an investigative reporter that he has "secrets". The two cases are not on par, and I would oppose renaming this article "Death of.." when the death is disputed enough that the article does not even state he was killed - only that he was "reported to have been killed ". Millmoss (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We have a certification from the hospital that he is dead, photographs of his dead body, eyewitness testimony that he is dead and that he was buried and statements from both sides that he is dead (neither the IDF nor the Israeli Government has ever endorsed the conspiracy theory that he is not dead). The rest of your comments are just smears of living people. You're also misreading the line you're quoting. It doesn't say he was "reported to have been killed." It says he was "reported to have been killed by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) gunfire". The object of the sentence is the IDF gunfire, which was reported to have been the agent of his death. The fact of his death is only disputed by a tiny minority of conspiracy theorists. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

No, we have certification from the hospital that a boy was dead, a boy admitted to the hospital hours before the shooting is alleged to have happened - but we don't know which boy it is. We have photographs of a dead boy's body, which video experts have concluded is a different boy than the one shown in the Rahma video. We have the eyewitness testimony of the cameraman that he is dead, and we have a court finding that that testimony is not credible. What the IDF or the Israeli government publicly supports, for reason known only to them, is a red herring. If you point out which statements are " smears of living people", I'll remove them. I have been studying the sources provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah/sources, and many of them seriously doubt the "fact" of his death. It is far from a "tiny minority of conspiracy theorists." Millmoss (talk) 22:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The doctors from the hospital confirmed the death of Muhammad al-Durrah. And contrary to your claim, the fact that the IDF chose to not endorse the finding of an investigation conducted by their own general is casts serious doubt on said investigation. ← George 22:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

You are simply wrong about this last part. The official Israeli position was derived from an assumption that from a public relations perspective, no good can come of continued investigations - no one will be convinced, and continued debate just keeps this in the news as a PR nightmare. You can argue if this was a valid strategy, but it has absolutely no relevance to the validity of the investigation. This is basic logic, really. Millmoss (talk) 23:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

George,

Gen. Yom Tov Samia endorsed the investigation's determination that Palestinian bullets probably killed the boy. Also, Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland changed his position completely following investigations. You can see the latter in the second documentary (maybe the first one as well). Millmoss is right as well to the false assumption you've made about the official Israeli approach to this incident. Please be careful about making erroneous statements about the content.

Regards, Jaakobou 23:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Gen. Samia conducted the investigation. And yes, Eiland supported that view, while the IDF distance themselves from both. One could say that Israel didn't want to embrace the report's conclusion because evidence that they didn't kill a 12-year-old would somehow be damning, but that falls into the realm of WP:OR. Or do we have a source for why the IDF didn't embrace the investigation's conclusions? ← George 23:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We do have it and I and Millmoss just told you what the sources say. Jaakobou 00:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you give me a direct quote from your source since I can't see it? ← George 00:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Here you go: "In recent years Israel has avoided relating to the incident, mostly because of the Foreign Ministry's recommendation that renewed handling of the affair would not help Israel's image in any case. " This is from Ha'aretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/908851.html Millmoss (talk) 22:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO,

Please stop promoting one version of what reliable sources say. Another version is that the dead boy in the images was (a) admitted at 10am (per the Palestinian doctor), which is earlier than the al-Durrahs were at the junction, and (b) this dead child was determined, by an international biometrics expert, as being a different boy than Jamal's son, Muhammad al-Durrah. I think we should avoid either statement about him being dead (quite possible but has been heavily questioned for inconsistencies and lack of evidence) or alive (not highly supported by reliable sources but is gaining in support).

In general, I'm undecided on the name change suggestion, but 'Death of' is a serious push in one direction and I am fully against that one.

With respect, Jaakobou 22:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The different positions

I thought it might help to lay out the various positions here for future reference:

1. He was shot and killed by the IDF. Held by Charles Enderlin, Talal Abu Rahma, most of the media that first responded, the IDF initially
2. He was shot and killed by Palestinian gunfire. Held by General Yom Tov Samia of the IDF following the Shahaf investigation, Daniel Leconte, former France 2 correspondent.
3. He was shot and killed but we don't know who fired the shots. Held by Arlette Chabot of France 2, and Israeli historian Tom Segev.
4. He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there. Held by James Fallows, The Atlantic Monthy.
5. He was probably shot, but we don't know by whom, and we have no reason to suppose he's dead. A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Durrah was shot (after midday), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Held by Esther Schapira.
6. There is no good reason to suppose that he was either shot or killed. The whole thing was a hoax. Held by Nahum Shahaf, Richard Landes, Philippe Karsenty, Daniel Seaman (Israeli govt press office), Luc Rosenzweig (retired managing editor of Le Monde), Jean-Claude Schlinger (French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty; Schlinger argues that it was probably a hoax, but if it was not, he was definitely not shot from the known IDF position).

My view from having read a lot of the research on this over the last couple of weeks is that most of the English-language media writing about it now would support the third position. SlimVirgin 21:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The latter is not necessarily a meaningful statement. The publications writing about it (such as the National Post, Jerusalem Post and Wall Street Journal, for instance) are (a) associated with a particular political POV, basically a hard-right pro-Israeli POV; and (b) the writings are almost entirely op-ed columns, not straight news reporting. The Al-Durrah story was originally covered in a very wide variety of outlets. Subsequent spikes in news coverage (as opposed to op-eds) related to, initially, Samia's exoneration of the IDF and then later the Karsenty libel trial. Coverage in the meantime was almost entirely confined to op-eds in right-wing outlets promoting a particular, often conspiracist, POV developed on the Internet by the likes of Landes. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about media positions without taking into account the facts that the outlets that are still covering the story are doing so primarily through op-ed commentary, not news reporting, and have a common ideological approach to the issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin - I think there is actually a position between your #3 and #4, which is 'He was shot and killed but we don't know who fired the shots, except to say that it was not by fire from The IDF position, as that is physically impossible' - that is the position that I think most sources would support today - it is what Fallows says, and it was what the independent French ballistic expert says in the latest trial appeal. Millmoss (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I would note that what you describe is position #2. I would say not many sources support this view, with more leaning towards #3 (the "we don't know" angle). ← George 22:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not position 2. It does not say it was Palestinians who did it, it leaves the actual identity of the shooters as an open question. Fallows is very explicit about this, and raises the possibility (which he thinks is unlikely, but theoretically possible) that it was other Israelis, who were not located in the IDF position that was initially reported as the source of the deadly shots. As I wrote, this position is supported by Fallows, by the French Ballistic expert, and by Schapira's 1st documentary.Millmoss (talk) 22:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

So #1 says the IDF killed him, #2 says the Palestinians killed him, #3 says we don't know who killed him, #4 says that we don't know that he's dead, #5 says that we don't know if he's been shot at all. You proposed that another possibility is that someone other than the IDF killed him, but disagree that the only someone else on the scene was the Palestinians. So who do you then claim killed him? The French? Ninja assassins? A troupe of clowns? ← George 23:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, it is not about what I claim ( I don't claim anything), but what reliable sources claim. Please stop personalizing this debate, and certainly stop doing so with mocking language. I am quoting to you, almost verbatim, what Fallows says - which is that we don't know who killed him, but we know for certain that it was not the IDF soldiers in the IDF position. Who was it? Perhaps it was Palestinian gunmen (deliberately, or unintentionally). Perhaps it was other IDF soldiers (deliberately, or unintentionally), located in a different position. Perhaps it was Israeli civilians. I don't know, and neither do the sources who support this position - but to mock it as you do is not a serious way to conduct debate. Millmoss (talk) 23:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

You said that there's an alternate version of events, one in which neither the IDF nor the Palestinians shot at the boy, so I'm asking who else it could have been (it was intended to be lightweight jest, not heavy handed mock). The only other people within any reasonable distance of the junction, other than these two groups, would have been Israeli settlers or foreign journalists, and, as far as I know, nobody has claimed that either of them shot the boy. While some sources say it wasn't the IDF without explicitly saying it was the Palestinians, the alternative you propose of a non-IDF, non-Palestinian shooter is unsupported by any sources. ← George 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO - I don't think your characterization of all the sources that support position number 3 as having "a hard-right pro-Israeli POV" is correct. I also don't think it is accurate to describe Schapira's documentaries as "Op-eds". Much of the coverage of the Karsenty libel trial concluded with news reports that echoed the claim that the entire event was staged - and this was in news outlets like Ha'artez that are far from having a "hard-right pro-Israeli POV". Millmoss (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) to Chris. It would take a while to gather the diffs, but I'm not talking about the Jerusalem Post, or clearly right-wing publications. Fallows's article in The Atlantic is a good example, as is Carvajal's in The New York Times. I also don't accept the straight news/opinion distinction. Just because something is on a news page doesn't mean it's not full of the writer's opinion, and something's being on a features page doesn't mean it's not well-researched. SlimVirgin 22:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Small query,

I didn't understand that we have a reliable source saying that Schillinger was hired by Karsenty. I thought that was speculation based on the reading of an unnamed ballistics document he published. Is this correct?

Regards, Jaakobou 00:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The Karsenty judgement says that he was a defense witness. ← George 00:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

As does Schlinger's report. SlimVirgin 00:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Just so I can get it straight, is this the unsigned report that appears on Karsenty's website? Jaakobou 03:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Another primary/secondary source tension

I have another example of a primary source perhaps being misinterpreted by secondary ones:

The Weekly Standard wrote on July 7, 2008 that: "The judge also noted 'inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions in the explanations by Charles Enderlin,' whose appearance in court was his first sworn testimony in the matter." Melanie Phillips wrote the same in The Jewish Chronicle on July 4, 2008: "As the Paris judge wrote, there were 'inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions' between Enderlin's commentary and the images he was describing."

But The Wall Street Journal Europe writes that in an editorial on May 27, 2008 that "Judge Trebucq said that Mr. Karsenty 'observed inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions in the explanations by Charles Enderlin' (my bold).

There's a big difference between the court noting contradictions, and the court saying Karsenty noted them. The original French is here. I believe the relevant section is:

Qu’en effet, le prévenu rappelle les faits, relate la polémique, indique que la MENA accuse la chaîne française de faux, avant de donner sa propre analyse et ses conclusions; que, dans ce cadre, il qualifie le premier épisode de pure fiction, ce qui est aussi soutenu par plusieurs des grandes signatures de la presse et de l’information ayant vu les rushes en octobre 2004; qu’il expose ensuite, au sujet de la scène principale, dans laquelle il a observé des incohérences inexplicables et des contradictions dans les explications sur l’agonie de l’enfant données par Charles ENDERLIN, que celui-ci se trompe, ce qui revient à lui imputer une simple erreur, et « du même coup », trompe le public, ce qui apparaît comme une formulation euphémique; qu’en concluant par une interrogation sur les raisons de « chercher à couvrir cette imposture », Philippe KARSENTY aborde le fond du sujet...

Does that section say that Karsenty noted the contradictions, or that the court did? Is there anywhere else in the document that indicates the court itself noted these contradictions or that it agreed with Karsenty about them? SlimVirgin 00:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

The The Wall Street Journal Europe seems to be the most accurate. The French says that "he observed the inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions". ← George 01:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Is it Karsenty who is doing the observing? Is there any indication that the judge is agreeing? SlimVirgin 01:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a French expert, but yes, in this case the "he" is referring to Karsenty when it says "he observed". It would be similar to if I wrote "SlimVirgin looked up, and she observed that the sky was blue that day". The Weekly Standard or Jewish Chronicle versions would be "George wrote that 'the sky was blue that day'", and the Wall Street Journal Europe version would be "George said that SlimVirgin 'observed that the sky was blue that day'". ← George 01:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, George. In the five years I've been editing WP, I don't think I've ever seen a story so badly written up by secondary sources. You expect to find occasional errors, but in this case, it's practically the default position. It's making the fact-checking very tedious. SlimVirgin 02:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I don't know any French but from what I understood, both sides got to sit in front of the video and tell the court what they are seeing. I understood that there were serious inconsistencies with the version of Enderlin, which fits with the "judge also noted 'inexplicable inconsistencies'" text. Karsenty was also giving his version to what he sees so the second version, i.e. "Judge Trebucq said that Mr. Karsenty 'observed'", fits as well. Both versions seem to agree that the judge found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable. Otherwise he wouldn't have noted them as such but rather describe them in a more neutral manner. e.g. Karsenty noted the court as to what he considered to be inexplicable consistencies. I general, I don't think we should over interpret the primary sources but I can see that we have a bit of a clash with secondary sources who each read the source a little differently. Do we have any other sources on this issue... perhaps the decision should be made based on the majority of secondary sources rather than based on our own reading of the primary source. Thoughts/suggestions? Jaakobou 03:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

"Both versions seem to agree that the judge found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable." Hmm, no - one says the judge found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable, and the other says that that judge noted that Karsenty found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable. "Otherwise he wouldn't have noted them as such but rather describe them in a more neutral manner." Again, no. He noted that Karsenty argued the point. The judge wouldn't rephrase what someone else said when attributing it to them. ← George 04:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

According to your hypothesis on how we should read into the primary source text, there's still the issue that the judge saw inconsistencies. Like I said, the decision should be made based on the majority of secondary sources rather than based on our own reading of the primary source. Jaakobou 04:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

If you don't like my translation, find another French translator, and they'll tell you the same thing - the judge noted that Karsenty observed inexplicable inconsistencies. How we resolve some secondary sources misreporting what the primary source says, and other secondary sources reporting it accurately, is another issue entirely. ← George 04:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be misreading errors into the secondary sources that I just disagree with. Your analysis of the primary source does not support that only Karsenty considered there to be inconsistencies. You'd assume as much just from the outcome of the trial (i.e. Karsenty being acquitted). No? Jaakobou 04:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

J, where does it say in the transcript that the judge himself noted inconsistencies, as opposed to him noting that someone else noted them? SlimVirgin 06:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

From an ANI I see that some editors object to using all and every "Arab sources". Even al-Jazeera is objected to here where a very argumentative editor seems to try to shout down 6 other editors. It must be very difficult to write good articles in this atmosphere. 86.158.184.158 (talk) 13:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It's close to impossible. SlimVirgin 05:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin,

According to the current translation of this primary source, it would be deductive that the judge did not object to either the word 'inconsistencies' or to the word 'inexplicable' when both were presented to him. Its a matter of phrasing, though, we don't seem to have a professional translator and assumptions based on a primary source is something that I am advocating against. Could you clarify the actual status of secondary sources on this issue? What is the mainstream view and is there a way around the material that we're unsure/hypothesizing about.

Regards, Jaakobou 20:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I understood your point, particularly "it would be deductive that the judge .." etc. My question was whether you have seen the judge say in the transcript that he himself noted inconsistencies regarding Enderlin. He seems to have made clear his views of the camerman's testimony, but not Enderlin's that I can see. SlimVirgin 05:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can use that source for writing something that contradicts reliable secondary sources. We've already seen where that approach led a couple editors here to to write in the article that multiple news outlets (supposedly) reported the story before it even occurred. I agree with you that there's a bit of a problem where two reliable sources contradict each other and my suggestion is to further investigate the mainstream view and also to see if there is a way around the material that we're unsure/hypothesizing about. Jaakobou 22:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I sympathise entirely with your comment that "I don't think I've ever seen a story so badly written up by secondary sources." This is a problem I've found as well; it was very apparent during the Karsenty case, when English-language secondary sources claimed that the court had ruled Enderlin's report a hoax when neither the court judgement nor the French-language reporting said any such thing. The reason, of course, is that neocon publications and hard-right writers like Melanie Phillips (who is known in UK media circles as "Mad Mel", with justification) report what they want to believe, not what actually happened. It's almost a case study in how ideologues distort factual reporting to create their own realities. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Death

I'm not sure for the reasoning behind the new "Died September 30, 2000, aged 12" template, but it seems to ignore all the recent pulications and concerns raised by fellow editors. Do explain (or consider reverting). Jaakobou 15:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

No. Read what SlimVirgin posted above at #The different positions. The view that he is not dead is clearly a tiny-minority position. This article has for a long time stated September 30, 2000 as the date of his death, and the removal of that death date would give undue weight to a fringe POV. We wouldn't delete the death date from Elvis's biography just because a few cranks think he's still alive and flipping burgers in Alabama or some such nonsense. The same principle applies here. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a tough call. Chris is wrong that it's a "tiny-minority position" and the comparison with the "Elvis is alive" rumors can I think fairly be said to lack merit or utility. That said, any decision about putting in a death date is essentially endorsing a particular POV. Maybe there's a creative way around it. IronDuke 20:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the viewpoint that Elvis is alive is certainly more common than the view that Muhammad al-Durrah is. // Liftarn (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

That he's not dead is still a minority view. Perhaps not quite "tiny minority," because there are mainstream journalists who hold that position, but it's still a marginal position. Any creative solution while the article has this title (i.e. where it's a bio) will make it look obvious that we're trying a workaround, and that would endorse the minority position. I suggested moving it to Mohammad al-Durrah affair, which is what they do on the French WP. I didn't suggest that in order to avoid the death-date issue, but because this isn't really a bio, and there's a trend away from using people's names to describe an event. If it were moved, we could remove the death date, but we couldn't reach an agreement on a new title, and I don't see it as a major issue. My thinking was that, if we ever get the article to FAC, and it's quite close, it would become an issue, but as things stand, it's not. SlimVirgin 20:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

What about Mohammad al-Durrah shooting? ← George 21:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd support moving the article to Mohammad al-Durrah affair. IronDuke 21:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

"Affair" is much too vague. It tells you absolutely nothing about the issue discussed in the article. It's a classic weasel word and Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid rejects it: " should not be used in article titles on current affairs, except in historical cases where the term is widely used by reputable historical sources." That is clearly not the case here. "Shooting" is more specific and therefore preferable. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

WTA is just a style guideline. If it helps us make the article more NPOV, then it's easily ignored. "Shooting" would be worse than what we have now. IronDuke 21:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, nobody, not even the fruitcake fringe, denies that there actually was a shooting, so there is no problem with maintaining NPOV with the term "shooting". You're also overlooking the POV component of the term "affair". As WP:WTA says, "The words scandal, affair, and -gate are often used in journalism to describe a controversial episode or in politics to discredit opponents. They typically imply wrongdoing or a point of view." Using "affair" sidelines the mainstream POV that there actually was a shooting in favour of the minority conspiracy theory POV. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

IronDuke - Does anyone actually suggest that there was no shooting at all? I've seen that some contend that the boy wasn't killed, and some suggest that the Palestinians shot him, but I haven't seen anyone claim that the Palestinians used some Hollywood-level special effects to create bullet holes (and the corresponding sounds of gunfire) in the video. ← George 22:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, no one suggests there was no shooting at all. But the term Mohammad al-Durrah shooting strongly implies the boy was shot. And the event is controversial, so I think affair is the right word, AFATG. And again, I don't generally feel style guidelines trump NPOV. IronDuke 00:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I think we've been pretty clear as to why "affair" isn't acceptable, as it's synonymous with "scandal". I'd still favor Mohammad al-Durrah shooting until someone can come up with a better suggestion. ← George 00:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You're right that NPOV is the primary consideration, which is why "affair" must be rejected for the reason that George mentions. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

George, simply reiterating that you made a point does not address mine. If it would help, I, too, could simply restate my premise as though it were automatically true. The only argument (aside from naked assertion) advanced here is WTA. I've explained why that's irrelevant. IronDuke 23:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is denying that shooting took place between the IDF and Palestinians that day, at the junction. But certainly there are quite a few notable sources denying that there was any shooting of the al-Duras, so changing the title to something along the lines of Mohammad al-Durrah shooting is a bad idea. I don't think a convincing case has been made against the use of "affair". There are numerous sources that describe this incident using that term, and the incident is clearly controversial. Millmoss (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I would be against any title with the word "shooting" in it including (unless people were very persuasive), "alleged shooting." IronDuke 23:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Which reliable sources are saying there was no shooting of Jamal and/or Muhammad? SlimVirgin 23:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The ones that say this event was staged, or likely staged. Those include Ha'aretz, and the ones Jaakobu listed below - IHT, Daily Telegraph, Jewish Press,etc... Millmoss (talk) 00:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Can you show me where Ha'aretz or The Daily Telegraph say it was staged? SlimVirgin 01:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Ha'artez says it here: "Court backs claim that al-Dura killing was staged", " backed Karsenty's claim that the station and its Middle East correspondent had broadcast a staged report" - . The Daily Telegraph report, which Jaakobu references is in the "Sources" section, and says "Mohammed al-Durra footage may have been a hoax"; "Court judgment supports view it was a hoax"; " revealed staged battle scenes, rehearsed ambulance evacuations - but nothing to substantiate the toxic television report. No shots were seen coming from the Israeli position, no bullets were shown striking the boy, no blood was seen on the father’s shirt, though he was said to have cradled his eviscerated son in his arms, and the boy is seen to move, even to look conspiratorially at the television camera, when he is supposed to have been dead." Millmoss (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

But that's the newspapers reporting that the court said it -- and the court didn't say it. (Note, too, that it's not The Daily Telegraph). These are examples of the poor reporting this case has received. But regardless of that, the newspapers are not themselves backing that view. What I asked you for was an example of a reliable source that is clearly supportive of the view that there was no shooting of the father and son at all, not one that mistakenly reports what someone else did or didn't say. SlimVirgin 17:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

It actually is the Daily Telegraph, according to the byline, and it does say it is a hoax, or a likely hoax, when it describes the content of the video, not that that this is what the court says. Millmoss (talk) 18:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

It's the Australian Telegraph, and I don't understand your last point. The articles are reporting what they think the court said. Look, there is no reliable source who supports the idea that there was no shooting at all. Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah is therefore the title that makes most sense. It steers us away from the bio, which is good because we don't have enough information about the boy to justify a bio. It avoids "affair," which two editors argue implies there's a scandal. And it avoids the issue of whether anyone died. SlimVirgin 18:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The byline says "The Daily Telegraph". If your point is that it is the Australian DT , rather than the British DT, you may be correct, but what difference this makes is not clear at all. Simply asserting that "there is no reliable source who supports the idea that there was no shooting at all" is unlikely to convince me, as such an assertion is contradicted by evidence presented: The DT article for one, is not 'reporting what they think the court said' - it is using its own words to describe the video as a hoax, and is contents as not containing any evidence of shooting. The DT article is also not the only one making that claim - numerous reliable sources, many of them listed in the "Sources" section, make that claim. It is true that there aren't any sources that support the idea that there was no shooting that day, at that location, but there are certainly sources that say the AL-Duras were not shot. Millmoss (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts: SlimVirign gave a reasoning to her edit as well as a suggestion towards a workaround that won't be a very obvious one. ChrisO gave and explanation that affair is too much of a synonym for scandal and promotes a POV. On the other hand, IronDuke stated that 'shooting' implies that the boy was shot (something that is heavily debated by the sources). In the sense of the arguments raised, I'm not sure that I am leaning towards any of the suggestions and I would like to see if there are, possibly more arguments/compromise suggestions that could be made. In any event, the newly added death stamp is a bit of a problem on its own and we need to find something that we can all agree on. Do we have any other articles of a similar nature/relevant policies that we can get inspiration from? Jaakobou 12:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The date of death isn't "newly added". It's been in the article for at least two years, if you look back in the history. The only new addition in that regard is the summary template. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the summary template makes a disfference that recent sources (and a couple editors) disagree with because it seems to pull the article in the direction that the initial reports were supposedly correct. Do we have any other articles of a similar nature/relevant policies that we can get inspiration from to possibly resolve this issue in long term fashion? Further content based arguements might help us come to a more communal resolution. Jaakobou 20:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting the sources. Have you looked at what SlimVirgin wrote above? "Most of the English-language media writing about it now would support the third position" . That's not simply "initial sources"; she's talking about what sources are saying now. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I spotted in an ANI that some editors seek to wiki-lawyer and use only fringe sources, while fighting tooth-and-nail to reject Reliable Sources. Here a case involving al-Jazeera where a very argumentative editor tries to shout down 6 other editors. It must be very difficult to write good articles in this atmosphere. 86.158.184.158 (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Didn't you make that point already on this talk page a few days ago? Yes, it does make things unnecessarily difficult, but I've found that editors who try to shout down other editors tend to find themselves being ignored. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Title

As a workaround, I've removed the person infobox, with the date of birth and death, and replaced it with the historical event box, which just gives the date of the event. I've also rewritten the first sentence to make the article about the shooting of them both, which avoids the need to give a date of birth and death, and I've tweaked the rest of the text accordingly. We could now move the title to Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah, if that's wanted. Is this an improvement? SlimVirgin 01:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe that's a reasonable compromise. By the way, I've just added a few lines concerning Jamal's injuries from some France 2 footage dated October 1st, 2000, along with a screen grab - though I doubt it will do much to convince the "all Arabs are liars" brigade. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The move was premature - there does not seem to be consensus for it. Please undo it. Millmoss (talk) 20:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I've not seen any valid arguments against it, and SlimVirgin has already recast the article's first paragraph to reflect it. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I've made several of them, right above, as has IronDuke. Although he has not explicitly stated so, I would assume Jaakobu is opposed to this new title as well. It is clear there is no consensus for this move, so your action was premature. Kindly undo it while the discussion is ongoing. Millmoss (talk) 21:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

This whole discussion makes no sense. Look, there are many possible explanations for what happened that day, but there are only two basic possibilities for what is shown on the video and what sources describe. Either (a) someone, somewhere shot something in the general vicinity of the al-Durrahs, or (b) the incident was not only staged, but the video was edited using Hollywood-esque special effects to add gunfire and bullet holes. I've seen nobody claim the latter. Maybe it was staged by "Palestinian snipers", or maybe he was killed by a "Palestinian bullet" - I personally have no idea, but even those things do not conflict with an article title that says there was a shooting. We're not titling this Israeli shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah, or Palestinian shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah, we're only saying that by all accounts someone, somewhere shot something in their general vicinity. ← George 21:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

When you call it "Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah" you are saying that they were shot - which is a point that is very much in dispute, and is certainly not evident in the video. Saying they were shot is different from saying there was shooting in their vicinity. If you want to title it September 30, 2000 Gaza shooting incident that would be fine with me. Millmoss (talk) 22:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there were multiple "shooting incidents" that day. It should probably be Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah shooting (similar to my original suggestion) instead of Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah. The latter implies the two were shot, while the former can mean that there were shots fired at or near them, which may or may not have hit them. ← George 22:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus for this move at all. By my count, there are three for it, three against (someone leap in and correct me if I'm wrong). If I'm not mistaken, controversial page moves must have consensus before being moved. Slim, would you mind undoing this until we have some sort of agreement? IronDuke 23:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC) Actually, make that 3-2. Sigh. Nevertheless, no consensus that I can see. IronDuke 03:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

ID, the idea is to get this article to FA status. We therefore have to find a title that's accurate and that reflects the contents. "Affair" smacks of scandal, the boy's name is inappropriate because it's not a bio, and the one we'd normally use in these circumstances -- Death of -- you'd object to. The current one is a compromise. I've been bending over backwards, actually, to make this article as neutral as I can, but it seems no matter how far I bend, it's not far enough. What we can't do is give credence to the right-wing Israeli POV that this was a hoax. We've included it, and we've removed the death date from the lead by changing it from a bio to an event article. That's goes quite far in the direction you and J have wanted. We can't go much further without it tipping too far. Remember that the alternative views are minority ones, the hoax view especially. SlimVirgin 04:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

While I'm happy, even eager, to discuss your reasoning for the move, can you put it back where it was until that discussion -- resulting in consensus -- is reached? IronDuke 23:29, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any point in doing that. The discussion had already gone round in circles for weeks, and there is no indication that I can see that you and Jaakobou are willing to compromise in the first place. Everyone else has tried to compromise with you,as SlimVirgin says; but Jaakobou in particular has been taking more and more extreme positions. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

ID, I'm not sure why you're asking me to move it. If it's a move that doesn't require the tools, you can move it yourself (though I hope you don't); if it does require the tools, I wouldn't be allowed to move it because I'm involved. SlimVirgin 00:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I've gone briefly insane. Didn't you move the article in the first place? If not, who did? IronDuke 00:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think you have, and perhaps not briefly. :) It was Chris who moved it, but I very much support the move. It's the best compromise title we have. SlimVirgin 00:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

And likely not for the last time. ;) Chris, to reply to your point above, that you feel my argument (and Jaak's) lacks merit does not actually mean you get to move against consensus. That is policy, if I'm not mistaken. Could you please move the page back to where it was? I could also add that I've accepted one compromise position, and am willing to hear others with an open mind, but it doesn't matter: the page can't be moved like this even if I were deaf to all entreaties. IronDuke 00:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The only suggestion you've come up with so far is an overly POV one - "affair", with its insinuations of "scandal", which is precisely why WP:WTA strongly rejects it. You and Jaakobou have consistently pushed for a title which would overtly favour a far-right minority POV and justified it on grounds which only a handful of the most extreme conspiracy theorists have put forward (note George's comment at the very bottom of this section). If you try to move it back and turn it back into a bio article then the death date and template that you objected to are going back in as well. They were taken out in an attempt to compromise with you, but if you're not interested in compromise - and I've not seen much sign that you are - then they can stay in the article as far as I'm concerned. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Chris makes a good point, ID. One of the issues editors who are sympathetic to the hoax claims complained about was that the lead contained a date of death. The article was therefore retitled and the lead rewritten to be about the shooting incident of both, rather than a bio of Muhammad, yet now you want it to be moved back. SlimVirgin 00:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Heyo all,

With all due respect, ChrisO has made something other than a good point. I can't recall to have "consistently pushed for a title which would overtly favour a far-right minority POV". I can't recall to have pushed for it even once, let alone on a consistent basis. Would you mind clarifying where my comments led either of you to believe that I'm interested in anything other than a longstanding source-based version that would be acceptable to everyone? (Hint: You could also just stick to comments on content).

Anyways, I don't believe anyone here cares much to be lumped up either the "sympathetic to the hoax/blood libel" crowd. Certainly not as an argument to ignore what reliable sources actually say. I'd appreciate a review of recent sources so that we can honestly assert how the media views/reports on this event, now that more information has come to light about the initial report. There was a need to move the page, but I'm not wure that we've yet found the best formula. Certainly editors ehre are asserting things without backup from the sources and this is not the best way to construct a long-lasting version.

With respect, Jaakobou 16:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm… well, those are somewhat curious replies indeed. Chris, virtually everything you wrote above is either highly misleading, or flat false. I “came up with” precisely no suggestions. The one I supported was suggested by SlimVirgin. I supported it, mind you—at no point did I “push” for it, let alone “consistently.” You’ve advanced the WTA argument several times now, an argument which I have easily swatted away. It wasn’t that your counterarguments were unpersuasive, it’s that you failed to make any at all. And the page move cannot be called a “compromise’” when it is firmly rejected as worse than the original, can it? I mean, that’s just sort of flabbergasting. What if I said, “Let’s change the title to Muhammad al-Durrah hoax, you reject that, and then I move it there anyway. When you complain, I scold you for being unwilling to compromise. I’m pretty sure I know what happens next. You probably write something like “I’m sorry, IronDuke, you’re right. You bent over backwards to come with a title I would really love, and now I’m spoiling that by complaining. Carry on.” Right? Something like that? I’ll also note that you have not responded at all to my contention that a controversial page move should not be done without consensus, and that this was done here. I’m assuming you therefore agree that is what happened, and will have no procedural objections to my moving it back if we cannot come with a compromise soon.

And speaking of compromise: I’m by no means committed to “Affair,” and I take your concerns about it seriously. There are many other ways to express this issue, and we are all of us, whatever other faults we may have, pretty bright people on this page, if I do so myself. So… what about Muhammad al-Durrah incident? IronDuke 20:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, it looks like Millmoss was blocked, then unblocked, then reblocked again for being a sockpuppet of NoCal100 and LoverOfTheRussianQueen. I don't know if they'll be a part of this discussion going forward. ← George 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Can't say I'm surprised. That was clearly not a new user account. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

• My two cents: The move to Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah was imprudent because a) his father is not part of the story and info on his father does not even belong in the lede, let alone the artilce name; b) the name removes the viewpoint that he may not have been shot. it's a minority viewpoint, but it should not be foreclosed in the lede. Muhammad al-Durrah incident per IronDuke or Muhammad al-Durrah affair per the French Wikipeda, make far sense. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• What drew your attention to this issue, Brewcrewer, given that before this post you hadn't edited for 27 days, and have never posted on this talk page before? SlimVirgin 05:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• comment on content, not the contributor. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
• And if s/he had been following the talk page, s/he would understand why "affair" and "incident" are unacceptable and wouldn't be making ridiculous assertions about the father not being part of the story. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• comment on content, not the contributor.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

So, I've gone ahead and moved the paged to "Incident," as I've seen no arguments against it. By my calculations, the current tally was 3-3 for moving the page to "Affair," as opposed to 2-1 for moving to "Incident." I hope everyone can live with this. If not, I remain open to further suggestions. IronDuke 23:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

No more page moves please, unless it goes through WP:RM. --Elonka 23:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that was a fast reply! Message received. IronDuke 23:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

There is an RM poll below. SlimVirgin 00:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

SV, respectfully, that poll isn't really on. It's more of a push poll than a neutral attempt to gather opinions, as can perhaps be gleaned by who is participating in it. I think there must be a better way to do this -- I remain confident that there is a solution we can all agree on (or at least most of us can). IronDuke 00:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Adding death dispute

Chris, in your second revert in about ten minutes, in your edit summary you write "rv addition of personal commentary." There was no such commentary added. I am assuming, for the moment, that you made an honest mistake, and will refrain from undoing your edit. Your clarifying what happened there, and what your reasoning may have been, would be helpful. IronDuke 00:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Second documentary

Note:

I believe the second documentary just came out and that it wasn't yet aired in English anywhere. It makes a fair assessment that there would be more voices that support the ' original report was false and the scene could have been staged ' theory than there are at this point in time - and at a glance, I'm not sure these voices are in a minority (see Daily Telegraph and IHT below). With respect to the recent name talks, the video shows that the wall behind them was shot at so the new title isn't horrible -- but, the actual incident is very much unclear to (what seems to be) the majority of recent mainstream publications. I feel as though several editors concluded what the mainstream media says based on preconceptions and without seriously looking at what it actually says. I can understand how its easy to get carried away in reading what fits one's perspective on events but (and then complaining about the pains of bending backwards), despite that, I (actually) still have a hard time accepting the previous misrepresentations of sources and poor logic in regards to "proving" one theory over the other and the (glaring) disregard for reliable secondary sources (incivility was an issue as well). In the respect of "bending backwards", I just don't see it as there is currently a very humble mention of the (what might be and actually seems to be) majority recent view (i.e. ' original report was false and the scene could have been staged '). In fact, the article's lead treads around and doesn't even mention the main points, that the initial allegation (which was dubbed as a 'modern blood libel') against Israel was shot down by multiple reputable investigators... there is some apologetic phrasing that maybe maybe maybe (...maybe) Palestinians shot him "or that it remains unclear whether the boy died" (<- the latter is not notable enough for the lead IMHO), but nothing about Israel being stated as being most probably not guilty (the most glaring point). The current structure should also mention that after an initial acceptance of the Palestinian report, multiple reputable sources changed their perspective. From what I understand two focal points for this were the finding out that Palestinians, Talal Abu Rahmah included, routinely acted scenes out at the Netzarim junction -- supported by multiple sources, including Charles Enderlin. The second focal point for a change in media perspective was in the wake of the "raw" material France 2 presented and the successful appeal. Both notes (i.e. Not Israeli bullets, change of historical perspective) should be noted in a respectable manner and without prejudiced conclusions as to how reliable sources supposedly misunderstood the court's verdict. My suggestion for moving on in a balanced manner -- and without any theories towards the backwards elasticity of human perspectives -- is to forget what we think we know and make an actual analysis of the current reliable sources.

p.s. SlimVirign, your above comment amounts to offensive commentary -- i.e. conflating Americans, Germen, French, and other journalists and investigators with 'right-wing Israelis'. I'd hate seeing a thought pattern that is not based on sources and I repeat my request that you refactor these comments.

With respect, Jaakobou 12:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Generic source review

I picked, without prejudice, the first ten on the list of recent sources:

1. The Daily Telegraph - "it now seems that what we saw was not what actually happened.", "infamous hoax"
2. Marianne (magazine) - I can't read French.
3. Columbia Journalism Review - "the ‘official’ version of the event could not be true", " enough evidence for the even more damning positive indictment ", " events of that day were essentially staged", "the tapes will probably show that the Israeli soldiers did not kill the boy, and that the cause of his death was either unclear or the result of a Palestinian bullet."
4. The Blitz - "as it turns out, the entire incident was staged; a fake", "far more likely that Palestinian snipers “martyred” the boy to advance their cause"
5. International Herald Tribune/New York Times? - "debate seethes about whether the ghastly televised footage of Mohammed al-Duri was genuine, misinterpreted or ... artfully staged", " does not clearly show the child's death.", "no definitive scene that showed that the child truly died.", "not convinced that the particular scene was staged, but only that ... ... does not exist."", " no one can say for certain who killed him, Palestinians or Israelis.",
6. The Jewish Press - "apparently dying", "footage Enderlin said was too graphic and terrible to view does not even exist. It has also been confirmed that the Israelis could not have shot the boy or his father from their positions. Apparently there was no corpse, no autopsy, and no funeral. Nor was there any blood where the boy was allegedly killed.", " staged battle scenes, false injuries and comical ambulance evacuations reinforces the possibility that the (very brief and spliced together) al-Dura scene, too, was staged"
7. Philadelphia Bulletin - ... will continue tomorrow.

I'm hoping that my review of the sources would be accepted as neutral/thorough but I'm open to queries/suggestion. I've not yet finished the reivew and as such, have not yet made any assertions/conclusions. Jaakobou 00:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

How is reviewing sources from a list that was purposely cherry picked to support a particular view either neutral or thorough? ← George 08:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Heyo George,

I've put some considerable time in fully shortening the views presented in the sources, which are recent, mainstream publications about the Al-Durrah case. I can't see much point in the complaint that they are cherry picked since they are from a fairly large collection of mainstream and wiki-reliable sources. If you would like to introduce a list of recent publications that give different perspectives, I have no special objection to that. However, my question was about the way I presented the sources and not about if you like these mainstream sources or not. We seem to have some minor agreement here (due to general disagreement) about moving in the less assertive direction. I was trying to help people have a better perspective on what reliable sources say by giving allowing a fast review on the first ten (arbitrarily chosen). My time is quite limited these days and I will finish this list (if there is merit to it) as soon as possible.

Regards, Jaakobou 23:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

George, Jaak has asked for specific comments regarding specific sources. If you have no opinion, you needn't post. If you do, by all means address them. IronDuke 23:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually no, he didn't "ask" for anything; he said he was open to "queries/suggestions". My query was how he could describe his methodology as "neutral/thorough". Watch the incivility. ← George 00:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that'd be a form of asking. I can take you through why a relatively obvious point is true if you need me to, but I'll assume for now you don't. There wasn't a particle of incivility to my post of course; ironically, your falsely accusing me of it is itself uncivil. And I note again, you have made no substantive points regarding Jaak's sources. IronDuke 00:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I consider statements meant to discourage other editors from contributing, such as "If you have no opinion, you needn't post", to be generally unhelpful and incivil in tone. Jaakobou asked for queries; I replied with a question asking how the methodology he described was either neutral or thorough, given that he's sampling a non-thorough, non-neutral set of data points. ← George 21:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Your reply, which did not address the specific sources Jaak had posted, was combative. If it had added to the discussion while being combative, I might have let it alone, but it did not. I find it curious that you take such a tone, and yet have strong feelings when it comes to others who you feel have not been sufficiently saccharine in their replies to you. As you continue to ignore the substance of what Jaak has posted, I don't really see the point of continuing this thread. IronDuke 23:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Clarification: I am still leaning towards neither of the suggestions and I would like to see if there are, possibly more arguments/compromise suggestions that could be made. I don't see the current re-title as a long term acceptable solution. Jaakobou 23:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to your reply to me above (which makes what you're trying to do much clearer), I don't think that this will be a fruitful approach. If you're specifically objecting to the term "shooting", you'll probably need to identify what sources say that neither the Israelis nor Palestinians shot at the al-Durrahs (note that a shooting can have occurred regardless of who fired the shots, and regardless of if the bullets actually hit the al-Durrahs). If you're just thinking out loud, trying to figure out a counterproposal for the title, that's certainly fine. It might be better to do it in your own userpage sandbox, but that's entirely up to you. I'm not particularly tied to this title, but just remember to cite as many reliable sources as you can find that support whatever title you end up proposing. Cheers. ← George 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Ref request

Can we have a link to the Canal+, April 24, 2008 ref? And this can't be correct: "In their eyes, Charles Enderlin would be a falsified of actuality." SlimVirgin 22:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Chris, I'm moving this here for now. The right section for it would be at the end, in the impact section, where we say how various people have received things. But in the meantime, we need a link and a good translation, and we also need to decide whether this is the best source for that particular view.

The French television channel Canal+ described al-Durrah as "an unbearable symbol in the eyes of certain radical pro-Israelis. Thanks to the Web, they will get to question the authenticity of the France journalist . Muhammad al-Durrah was not dead, his father was not injured, Muhammad was alive. In their eyes, Charles Enderlin would be a falsified of actuality."

SlimVirgin 22:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

"Falsified" is a typo on my part - sorry. It should be "falsifier". The lines in question are: "Un symbole insupportable aux yeux de certains radicaux pro-israéliens. Grâce au Web, ils vont réussir à mettre en doute l'authenticité du reportage du journaliste de France 2 . Mohammed al-Dura ne serait pas mort, son père n'aurait pas été blessé, Mohammed serait vivant. A leurs yeux, Charles Enderlin serait un falsificateur de l'actualité." I'm not sure if it's on the web, but I have a transcript of the Canal+ documentary. They visited Gaza and re-interviewed all of the participants, so it's a valuable source. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, if they did a proper investigation, it's a good source. I'll work it into the impact section. Enderlin also said something about this being a product of the Israeli right-wing, so I'll try to find that too. SlimVirgin 22:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I've had a go at working it into the impact section per your suggestion. They follow a similar line to Cavajal about the potency of the footage, but put the controversy in an interesting light - that of right-wing radicals trying to tear down not only Enderlin but any journalist who doesn't cleave to their POV. That's a rather well-documented phenomenon, as I'm sure you're aware (think CAMERA). We should also not overlook the impact on Enderlin himself (the death threats etc), which I've also mentioned. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:14, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, why are you introducing a conspiracy theory into the "incident as initially reported" section? That destroys the point of the section, since it's not remotely contemporary. The subsequent conspiracy theorising should be kept in its own section. I don't see any point in selectively adding a counterpoint to one element of the original reporting, particularly as the conspiracy theorists have counterpoints to virtually every element. You're risking opening the door to the addition of any number of conspiracy theorist counterpoints. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

There's just one sentence (and, in fact, I think earlier I just had "but see below" with a link), because, although this is the "as initially reported" section, we can't let material that has been directly challenged stand as though it has not been challenged. That is the way I've written it throughout: mostly chronological, but with "but see this and see that," where relevant, so that readers aren't misled into thinking the issues are straightforward. SlimVirgin 22:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Chris, please don't keep calling it a conspiracy theory (you did it four times in that one post). :) I would like to try to take this to FAC. The way to do that is to have a well-written article, streamlined, with a coherent narrative and flow, and to make sure throughout that views are written about respectfully -- bearing in mind that minority views don't get as much space or focus. An FA has to exhaust the available reliable sources, or at least the available views. It can't miss any out (if mainstream sources have written about them).

What everyone has to remember is one very important fact. We were not there. We therefore don't know what happened. The only thing we can do is try to create an intelligent piece of writing based on what the newspapers and court documents are saying. We shouldn't emphasize anything irrelevant, and we shouldn't leave anything relevant out. This process is harder than usual because a lot of the newspapers aren't reporting accurately what other people have said, so it's a bit of a primary/secondary minefield. But if we add the strong POVs of editors into the mix, the process becomes impossible. SlimVirgin 22:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but not calling it a conspiracy theory won't change the fact that it most definitely is a conspiracy theory. Read what you yourself wrote: " David said the scars that Jamal presented as bullet wounds from the 2000 shooting were actually scars from a tendon repair operation that David had performed in 1994." You have a conspiracy theory straight off - that Jamal is lying about his bullet wounds and conspiring to misrepresent them. Think about it a bit more. We have video footage taken the day after the shooting showing Jamal in a hospital bed, in pain, covered in bloodstained bandages. We have his doctors talking about his injuries and showing X-ray photographs of his broken bones. We have first-hand news reports of him in hospital in Gaza and in Jordan. We know from those reports that he went through multiple operations in both Gaza and Jordan. So David is not only overtly stating that Jamal is lying, he's implicitly stating that his doctors are also lying, and that all the contemporary evidence - video footage, bloodstained bandages, X-ray plates, doctors' reports, journalists' first-hand reports - is all faked. I am uneasy (to say the least) that a completely unverified claim by an individual who we don't even know ever met Jamal before is being given as much prominence in the article - if not more - than the mass of undisputed first-hand reporting and photographs of his injuries. It seems too much like undue weight on a random individual's claims. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

A conspiracy theory involves more than people saying someone is lying. An important aspect of a story becoming a conspiracy theory is that it's not falsifable in the minds of its adherents: no matter what evidence you produce to refute it, they'll incorporate it into the theory. It's a closed system that ignores the standard rules of evidence. It's an ideology, in other words.

Jamal is saying, "This injury was obtained during a shooting." The doctor is saying, "That hand was injured before the shooting. I know this because I performed surgery on it." Those are conflicting claims, not a conspiracy theory.

I don't know why you would say the doctor's views are being given as much prominence as all the other views. The doctor is given very little space. SlimVirgin

We can't use this in the article because it's SYN, but one thing I personally found quite convincing is the article from the woman who knew Jamal a little because she'd hired him to do construction work around her house. It's a very good article; worth reading. The last time she hired him would have been after the surgery the doctor said he performed. She doesn't mention him being unable to use his hand. On the contrary, he did some very intricate work for her on a picture frame that had broken. That doesn't mean the doctor didn't perform surgery, but it suggested to me that Jamal's hand wasn't paralysed after it, as it apparently was after the shooting. SlimVirgin 00:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

No alleged archives

It is suprising that there are "no archives". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.180.36.64 (talk) 10:05, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's one place to go to see how the field was cleared for an NPOV editor to mend the article. A great shame that other admins later banned him. 80.40.225.228 (talk) 17:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The archive pages are still there but unlinked at the moment. I'll try to fix this. See for a link to the most recent one. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I've restored links to them at the top of the page. SlimVirgin 19:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Question

Ironduke, do you seriously suppose this article might be awarded FA status with this as the title, and with a note from a Wikipedian after the date of death that the death is disputed? SlimVirgin 00:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, FA status wasn't something I was particularly lusting after. I just want the article to be as neutral and accurate as possible. If that means no FA, I'm okay with that. I'd also add that you had an opportunity to comment on my proposed title change, but declined to do so. IronDuke 00:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

One way to ensure that the article is neutral, accurate, well-written, and well-sourced, is to submit it for FA status, because it means some of WP's best editors will review it. It's not for you to decide that that ought not to happen. Trying to get FA status isn't about acquiring a bauble; it's about trying to make the article the best it can be. The word "incident" in the title, and notes from Wikipedians in the text, won't get us there. SlimVirgin 01:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, FA reviewers could point these things out, if they felt they were a barrier. If so, they are easily altered. If not, it could be baubles all round :). BTW, I don't know what you mean by "notes from Wikipedians" -- I know pretty much for a fact you don't deny that his death is disputed. But again, I'm open to outside views. IronDuke 01:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

We don't write articles deliberately badly to give FA reviewers a reason to oppose. We write them as well as we can, in the hope that the reviewers support. What you are doing here is sabotaging that. SlimVirgin 01:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

That's begging the question, of course; you are repeating your original assertion as though it had been proven. It hasn't -- not even a start has been made on that process, assuming you are ultimately correct. But I'm still listening. IronDuke 01:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Which original assertion?

ID, don't do this. Your usual thing is to start pointless arguments and keep them going, lots of word play, rhetorical questions, on and on. It's a waste of time. Fact is that this is a bad title, and your edits made the article worse. "Incident" sounds as though we're holding it at arms' length and wearing a clothes peg on our noses. SlimVirgin 01:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Hm, well that is a bit disappointing. In your last sentence, you raise -- for the first time -- something close to an actual point, one I can actually engage. However, you are also getting personal (and are quite wrong in both fact and spirit on that front), so I'm uncomfortable continuing this discussion with you. I'll just say that I think most people would agree an "incident" occurred. Indeed, it seems highly obvious to me. IronDuke 01:29, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, one more thing and then I'll leave you with the last word. At present, we use the word "incident" specifically relating to MaD roughly 13 times in the article, including a section header. IronDuke 01:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for accusing you of arguing pointlessly; I was out of order doing that. SlimVirgin 01:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for doing that, it is heartily appreciated. I'm happy to expand more on the above if you or anyone else would like. IronDuke 02:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Straw poll for title

Would people please express their preference here, bearing in mind that it would be good to get the article to FA. The title should be one that accurately reflects the majority and significant-minority positions, without sounding as though we're endorsing a tiny-minority. SlimVirgin 01:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

• Muhammad al-Durrah (advantage is it's simple; disadvantage is that the article's not about the boy, and we would have to include or omit a date of death in the first sentence).

Support

1. Third choice. ← George 06:20, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
2. Second choice. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

• Death of Muhammad al-Durrah (this is what we would normally choose in a situation like this; disadvantage is that a significant minority say there's no evidence that he died).

Support

1. First choice. ← George 06:20, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
2. Comment. This would be an obvious choice but there's no way the conspiracy theorists will allow this, unfortunately. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

   I'll just point out that I voted on what I felt was the most appropriate title for the event, based on Misplaced Pages policies - not what I think other editors will agree to. Even if "a significant minority say there's no evidence that he died", that doesn't mean that those commentators believe he didn't die, just that they see no evidence to confirm it. No one disputes that his death was widely reported. No one disputes that the doctors said he was dead. No one has reported seeing the boy alive in the last 9 years. Not a significant minority - no one. ← George 09:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

• Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah (advantage is that it deals with the shooting of both, and avoids the issue of whether the boy died; disadvantage is that contains the word "shooting," and a minority say the whole thing was a hoax—this is arguably a tiny-minority position, though it's hard to be sure).

Support

1. My first choice. SlimVirgin 01:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
2. Second choice. ← George 06:20, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
3. First choice. Even those who argue that the Israelis weren't responsible for the shooting don't deny that there was a shooting. The view that the whole thing was a hoax is a tiny-minority position and should not dictate the article's naming. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

• Muhammad al-Durrah affair (used by the French Misplaced Pages. Advantage is that it makes no comment on what happened; disadvantage is that "affair" may smack of scandal)

Support

1. Third choice. SlimVirgin 01:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

• Muhammad al-Durrah incident (similar positive and negative issues as "affair," though "incident" may sound even more hands-off)

Support

• Muhammad al-Durrah and France 2 (suggesting this here for the first time; advantage is that this is what the article is actually about; disadvantage is that it may sound as though we're endorsing an alternative view).

Support

1. Second choice. SlimVirgin 01:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm not sure I agree with this straw poll. For one thing, I feel we're ossifying choices, and another, mutually agreeable one may well be out there. Also, the way the poll is phrased, it's quite leading. At the very least, I'd love it if the editorializing could be stripped out (including in the intro), and arguments for or against would be made under editors' own sigs. IronDuke 02:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Remove the comments if you want to. It's a perfectly standard poll, which is required by RM. My idea is to ask an involved admin to close it, so if you feel the comments are in the way, please remove them. SlimVirgin 00:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, let me think about that. PS I think you mean "uninvolved" admin. And do they really "close" straw polls? IronDuke 00:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Ha ha, yes. Freudian slip. :) WP:RM asks that a poll be held and an admin close it. There are admins who specialize in page moves, so I was thinking of asking one of them. I may also put this up as an RfC, which was why I added the comments (I tried to keep them neutral), so that people not familiar with the issues would see what they were. SlimVirgin 00:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I was also thinking about the RfC route -- I'd encourage you to do that, as long as the posting was neutral. And as for the neutrality of the comments, really what would be most neutral there is no comments, yes? And I say again, I think a poll is premature. I'm sure there are many more ideas we could all come up with, one of them possibly leading to a title we can all live with. And this poll is short-circuiting discussion. You and Chris seem not to like incident, but there has been virtually no discussion as to why. Mind you, it doesn't have to be "Incident," but discussion is better than a poll here, IMO. IronDuke 01:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

There has to be some explanation for people if there's to be an RfC, or they won't know why we're asking. SlimVirgin 01:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Perhaps there could be a "We wish to emphasize that the idea that MaD did not die is an insignificant minority view and the title should reflect this" section versus a "We wish to emphasize that the idea that MaD did not die is a significant minority view and the title should reflect this" section. But again, can we not have further discussion? This seems premature. IronDuke 01:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not liking the poll at this point in time. I don't think we'd get anything other than what we've got up to now in the discussions above. Jaakobou 14:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above sentiments. The format of the "poll" was not a good idea, per IronDuke. Nor has anything really changed from the discussion in the preceding section. The move to Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah was done with no consensus and to top that, was a poor idea. As explained above, Muhammad al-Durrah or Muhammad al-Durrah incident are really the only proper names that would satisfy all viewpoints. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

What happened to the links?

In the ref section, I notice there aren't any links to the refs in the footnote section, as there used to be. I personally find that a bit inconvenient and will totally baffle new users who want to see where the info is coming from -- can someone say why this was done? Was there an MOS change? Thanks. IronDuke 01:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

We've used short refs in the text for the footnotes, and full citations in a separate References section. The latter is required for FA. All the links are there. SlimVirgin 02:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, in that case I would really be arguing pointlessly if I argued against it ;). Just seems silly, though, doesn't it? You, a newbie, click on a footnote and, while the source is there, and could be clickable, it isn't. You'd have to know where to search further down. Ah, well. IronDuke 02:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The advantage is that long citations are moved out of the text; they can make articles harder to edit for flow in edit mode, which leads to poor writing. The disadvantage, as you say, is that readers have to click twice. There is a way of making the short refs jump to the longer ones, but it involves adding templates, and that slows page loading down. All the citation methods have their disadvantages. SlimVirgin 02:11, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Page moves

Would you guys please stop moving the page until a solid consensus is built?!?! It is totally confusing and irresponsible to be bold here given that there is so much discourse happening. I suggest moving back to plain al-Durrah until something can be agreed on. --Shuki (talk) 23:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Elonka has already requested that the page not be moved unless and until it goes through RM. IronDuke 00:08, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I have asked Elonka not to take admin action in relation to this page, as rightly or wrongly I see her as involved. SlimVirgin 00:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure you are right. Elonka was reviewing some of the poor conduct on this page a while back but other than that I don't believe she has expressed opinions in either direction or participated much in any Israeli-Arab content debate. In general, I think it is a good idea for admins to be knowledgeable of past behaviors. Did I miss anything there? Jaakobou 07:12, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with SlimVirgin. Given the history of that involvement, further involvement would be inadvisable. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:31, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Query

I'm not following how the latest revert makes things better. I attempted to shift the emphasis from the minority "boy might be alive" perspective to the far more mainstream published opinion that the incident was staged . It also begs the question on why we're not saying the most obvious conclusion from all the investigations. i.e. that Israelis could not have shot him. ChrisO tried to assert that these were not in the source (per "rv to SlimVirgin - POV, OR") so I've added a direct citation. Is there anything I'm missing here. Please explain. Jaakobou 17:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I reverted because of your addition of an irrelevant point in the footnote, one that had nothing to do with the text, and because you repeated in the lead that some people think it was a hoax. That point is already there, where we say Karsenty was sued for saying it. SlimVirgin 00:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

There's two problems with your perspective on layout here. For starters, that one of the people saying it were a hoax was sued, does not mean that we should exclude the note that multiple serious investigators found that (exhibit a) Israelis could not have shot him. This absolutely, positively must be included in a prominent location in the lead. Also, its not much of a point to exclude a note that the majority of investigations believe a portion of the event was staged... just becauswe a blogger got sued for saying just that. ChrisO made the cute claim that I'm making things up, so I gave the direct quote from our source. I'msorry that adding that quote offended you. Regardless, I have no special ties with adding of the direct portion of our reference, but it does help people with concerns like the ones raised by ChrisO realize that the citation text actually say what they claim to be "rv to SlimVirgin - POV, OR". I'm not sure on another way of handling such an issue, where an editor claims the reference does not say something, when it clearly does. I know that you'd like the references to be clean, but this circumstance required a direct quote. Suggestions/thoughts? Jaakobou 06:37, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your point. The lead lists the possibilities: Israelis shot him, Palestinians shot him, persons unknown shot him and maybe he didn't die, maybe no one shot him. We don't labour or highlight any of them. SlimVirgin 10:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Well,

The main media notability of the investigations was that after it became evident that the Israelites could not have shot him (according to the investigations), other theories were raised. The most prominent, I believe in later publications was that theory that the scene was staged - and not that the boy might be alive. I believe there's a clear difference between saying "Palestinians may have shot him" and between "Israelis could not have shot him". The latter, IMHO, is the more prominent assertion and the one that should be written. This was also the way it was written in the cited source (i.e. James Fallows 2003) and in my edit, I've added the exact quote to support this. There's no point in focusing the blame on the Palestinians if no one really knows what happened. All the speculations are only due to the most notable finding of the investigators. I also think that there hasn't been a huge support for the "no one knows if the boy is alive" theory. Placing that theory in contrast with the notability of the one that says the event was staged gives the staging theory the victory hands down. I believe the lead should reflect that. Hope my points are clear now so we can fix this issue. Let me know if you need the direct quotes I've used for this (you can also click on the above diff of your revert).

Warm regards, Jaakobou 13:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed the import of SlimVirgin's words? When she says "we don't labour or highlight any of them", it's because we shouldn't. You are arguing in favour of slanting the entire article in favour of one POV which, not coincidentally, you evidently believe in. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that Jaakobou wants to highlight the conspiracy theory explanation, which is of course undue weight and overt POV-pushing. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

As a reminder, please keep comments focused on the content, not on the editors, thanks. --Elonka 00:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Elonka, you were asked by the two main contributors, both experienced editors, not to comment here as an admin. Doing so directly afterwards is provocative and inappropriate. Chris is right in what he says about Jaakobou, and always has been, just as he was right about others. Now, please, respect our judgment that you are involved, so that there's no more drama on this page. We have been doing fine in recent months, and the article has improved as a result. SlimVirgin 02:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not right. Non of the recent allegations is either accurate or merited. Certainly, this is not the place to hold ideological grudges and use the platform as a battering ram and there's a number of very prominent policies that discuss incivility and other such basics that should be avoided in common editorial practice. The way to move forward should be through mutual respect among established editors who might be able to bring from their knowledge and experience to help create a more long term and wide-scale consensus text. Could you imagine the article lasting long term with a faulty assessment that AP reported on the shooting before it even occurred? I couldn't; I'm glad that, for example, we were able to correct it with a wide consensus. I'd like to renew my bid for collaboration. We all know something about the content and together we can make this article brilliant with a bit of collaboration and focus towards what our sources say, rather than possibly incorrect preconceptions dictate.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 06:44, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

This article is now making good progress, and has done for the last few months. I see it as quite close to FAC standard; all that's missing are some images, and perhaps more details of Schapira's documentary under her own section. It definitely does not need any more about the hoax allegations, especially not in the lead.

And "we" did not correct the AP report, Jaakobou. It was found to contain material not consistent with the date. It wasn't you who found that, and it had nothing to do with your posts about it. I really have no interest in arguing any further with you about this article. You've been making the same points for years, and they get us nowhere, because the only thing we can do in this article is repeat what reliable sources have said, in rough proportion to how the sources represent the claims. Unless and until the sources say more about the hoax allegations, we can't expand on them or highlight them, and I doubt there's a single experienced editor on Misplaced Pages who will tell you otherwise. SlimVirgin 07:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, one further point, then I'll say no more about it. I do want to write a brief paragraph for the lead summarizing the "Personal and political impact" section, because that's needed if we want to submit this for FAC. So the hoax issue will be mentioned there, but it will be discussed in terms of the political impact the image has had, not in terms of evidence for or against. That is, it will be a "meta" issue. SlimVirgin 07:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear SlimVirign,

Lead expansion: I have no intention on expanding the lead on the hoax theory but you can't present that theory differently than the mainstream media does. The claims are not focusing on the "boy might be alive" assertion that you've inserted into the lead (per: "or that it remains unclear whether the boy died"), but rather on a claim that "Israelis didn't shoot him", and "possible that the incident was staged". The text should reflect the main point and not the fringe point. I'm 100% certain that this is how the text should be written and I've added two relevant quotes from the James Fallows source to support this (fairly minor but pertinent) change (see "was not shot by", and "event was staged" at the bottom), and its hard for me to change that perspective if I'm under constant attacks for something that I'm not doing. Preconceptions are hard to change, but I'm fairly certain that there's nothing concrete in my fix suggestion here (of changing the phrasing on the investigations) to back up any of the bad faith allegations.

Side notes about the AP issue: I believe I made a strong case on why ChrisO's initial "discovery" -- that AP allegedly reported the incident before it occurred -- long before you also corroborated that he was wrong. I also saw that text you "found" but it did not have any time stamp and I wanted to give ChrisO the benefit of the doubt to come up with a different version than the one I was looking at.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 10:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to repeat this, but it's important not to allow a meme to get started here. You made no case at all for removing the AP story. You just kept posting that it ought to be removed. Your posts had absolutely nothing to do with its removal. I spent a few weeks fact-checking the article, comparing every claim to what the sources said, comparing sources against each other, and checking that secondary sources had correctly interpreted primary sources. I found lots of errors, which I think had remained in the article because some people were adding errors and other people were scared to revert them, so errors were being absorbed into the next set of edits.

One of the issues I found was that an AP story had an inaccurate date-stamp on it; the story had been rewritten but the timestamp hadn't been changed. That was one of many issues I found, and my finding them had nothing to do with your posts. Now, please, no more discussing you and your opinions. The article is better than it has been for awhile, perhaps ever. It fairly represents the various views (except that we need more Schapira in her own section, in my opinion) to the best of our ability given how hard it is to judge proportion. There is probably a more coherent and readable account of your views in the current version than ever before, so you have won a lot of concessions. Please don't keep pushing for more. SlimVirgin 10:15, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Heyo SlimVirign,

I tend to agree that the article is in better shape and, though you might disagree, I feel that I've had a part in that. Still, personal views (per "your views in the current version") have nothing to do with poor conduct or the content discussion. In regards to the content, I've mentioned above (maybe you missed it) that the lead is focusing on the wrong part of the investigations (see "was not shot by", and "event was staged" at the bottom). Are you still not undertsanding my concerns here?

p.s. You can/should review the AP case history to jog your memory. Please also mind the "meme" incivility.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 16:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

There is no need to review the AP "case history." There is no case history. I made my way through the article checking sources -- clunk, clunk, clunk -- and removed the AP one when I found the date discrepancy (which you hadn't noticed). It wasn't removed because of your posts about it. SlimVirgin 01:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I find myself agreeing with Jaakobou that the lede should emphasize the issue of non-Israeli causation instead of the possibility of still being alive. Mainstream sources emphasize the former over the latter. The OR-like analysis of "mistakes in the secondary and primary sources" doesn't look that kosher and in-line with WP:OR.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

On another vein, some of the editor behavior here has been most troubling. Not sure why we're having continued unwelcome editors directed towards other editors. Perhaps editors that don't want others to chime in and need provenance information from all editors shouldn't really be editing this article. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I've been watching this discussion unfold, and I just don't get it. While Jaakobou's version is longer and harder to read, I'm just not getting what it adds or subtracts from the statement. The whole thing strikes me as a glass half full/glass half empty argument. What's the difference between saying the Israelis didn't shoot him and saying that the Palestinians did? What's the difference between saying that some claim the boy isn't dead and saying some claim that his death was staged? While Jaakobou's version isn't as well written, I don't really see the difference. ← George 18:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

One difference is that the writing in J's version is not as good, and the writing matters. He also wants to add to the lead that an investigation showed the incident to be staged. We already refer in the lead to Karsenty saying it was hoax, so saying it was staged is repetitive. It's also not entirely correct as he wrote it—neither the first nor the second IDF investigation concluded the issue had been staged, yet he says there was an "investigation" that showed this. He also wants to add that Israeli soldiers could not have shot the boy, rather than that they may not have done. His version also added an irrelevant footnote to the final section. SlimVirgin 01:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry that my version is "not as good" as yours. I wouldn't mind suggestions on how to rephrase it in a manner that you think is as good as your text. The issue, though, is that the investigations clearly all stated that Israelis could not have shot him. Can we start by accepting that this is what the cited article says? Jaakobou 09:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't see any argument against the source clearly saying " was not shot by the Israeli soldiers who were known to be involved in the day's fighting—or so I am convinced, after spending a week in Israel talking with those examining the case." I've rephrased it from 'suggested' to 'stated'. I also disagree with the notion that Karsenty's court case clarifies that there are investigations towards the "staged scene" issue, which is far more notable than any "boy might not be dead" claims. I've also reviwed the French source and slightly rephrased the language so that it would be closer to our French source: "M. Karsenty était poursuivi pour avoir affirmé que les images diffusées par la chaîne publique en septembre 2000, montrant la mort sous les balles israéliennes d'un enfant palestinien blotti dans les bras de son père, pendant l'intifada, relevaient de la mise en scène (nos éditions du 16 septembre)." There's no mention of Enderlin in there and the accusation is that the images were staged and not that France 2 perpetrated anything other than broadcast these images. Jaakobou 23:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirign,

You just said that "no investigation showed that ". Did you miss the above text?

Warm regards, Jaakobou 23:42, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Intifada balance

I'm finding the current note that "around 3,000 of them Palestinian" to be imbalanced use of statistics. For example, around 80 percent of Israeli casualties were inside Israel proper. Certainly a noteworthy statistic. Another is that of the 3000, more than 2000 were involved in militancy and of the about 1000 Israeli casualties, approximately 70 percent were civilians, leading Israel to construct the highly controversial security barrier. Anyways, I'm not yet sure on a phrasing that I'd be 100% happy with and I'm open to suggestions. Jaakobou 16:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't understand recent change

Jaakobou recently changed one of the sentences in the "Ariel Sharon's visit to Temple Mount" section, and I don't completely understand the change, or what it adds to the article. LIkewise, however, I'm unsure if the original statement was accurate either.

The statement used to say:

"On September 28, 2000, two days before the incident, the Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. The Temple Mount contains the holiest site in Judaism and the third holiest in Islam, making access to it a hotly contested issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The visit was seen as a provocation..."

Jaakobou changed this to:

"On September 28, 2000, two days before the incident, the Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. The Temple Mount contains the holiest site in Judaism and the third holiest in Islam, making the Islamic Waqf administration over the site and the ban on non-Muslim prayer a hotly contested issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The visit was seen as a provocation..."

The original effectively stated that: Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, visiting the temple mount was contentious; his visit was viewed as a provocation. It flows logically, and makes some sense, but I'm not sure if it's accurate (more on that later). Jaakobou's version is more akin to: Ariel Sharon visited the Temple, Muslim control over the area is contentious; his visit was viewed as a provocation. This just doesn't flow (logically or chronologically), nor totally make sense.

To quote this Haaretz article:

"For 33 years, the Temple Mount was open to all, including Jews, who were permitted to visit - but not pray - on the site. This was the core element of the status quo set up by Moshe Dayan on the Temple Mount in June 1967. On the day following Sharon's visit to the Mount, the Waqf, the Muslim religious trust, closed it to all non-Muslim visitors, following consultations with the Palestinian Authority."

Some key points to take from this:

1. Muslim control of the Temple Mount was setup by Moshe Dayan (an Israeli) in 1967.
2. Everyone was permitted to visit, but only Muslims were permitted to pray, as part of the same status quo established in 1967. I believe the Israelis also hold (and enforce) this stance, albeit as a way to avoid confrontation.
3. The Waqf only restricted access to the site after Sharon's visit.

This doesn't indicate to me, as Jaakobou wrote, that the "Waqf administration over the site and the ban on non-Muslim prayer a hotly contested issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict," as it had been the status quo situation for 33 years. Was highlighting the ban on prayer Sharon's impetus to visit? Did he openly pray at the Temple Mount? I couldn't find anything on that either, so I'm confused. And visiting the Temple Mount wasn't prohibited either as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure the original wording was accurate. To the best of my recollection, the Palestinians weren't upset because a Jew visited (which was allowed at the time), nor because that Jew prayed (which I didn't find evidence of), nor because of who administered the area (which doesn't really make sense). I believe they were upset specifically because it was Ariel Sharon who visited, a man whom they consider to be the "butcher of Beirut", guilty of war crimes in the massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, and because the visit was viewed more as a show of Israeli power, "rubbing it in the noses" of the Palestinians, so to speak. ← George 18:48, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I can clear up some of your confusion. "Making access to it a hotly contested issue" is a bit misleading in its vagueness. There's not been an issue of Muslims having access. It's been Jews' access, and whether they may freely visit and/or pray. Thus, the issue here, as I think Jaak's edit correctly highlights, would be the Waqf controlling the area. And yes, this has been and continues to be a hot-button issue in the IP conflict, even 33 years later. Sharon's visit was contentious, and that his visit was contentious was itself contentious. IronDuke 20:25, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

That sentence should be as streamlined as possible with no unnecessary detail. I've changed it to: "The Temple Mount contains the holiest site in Judaism and the third holiest in Islam, making its rules of access one of the hotly contested issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict." SlimVirgin 00:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Heyo George,

I figured it merited some basic notice that his visit is contenteous because he wanted to support Jewish people having a right to pray in the location. The reader needs some minimal half-sentence mention to help him understand on why Sharon took to make a visit and why it is seen as a provocation, yes? I tried to keep it minimal though without soapboxing about riots and random clashes and stone throwing. Thought I'd done a reasonable job at that actually.

SlimVirign Please,

If you don't understand what's going on content-wise, then ask before you remove highly relevant content. Is there anything else that needs clarifying on why Sharon visited the cite or are you thinking that the term suggesting Jews and Arabs have equal rights there is ok?

Warm regards, Jaakobou 00:16, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I undid your latest edit on this topic. I think you're incorrect that Sharon's visit was contentious "because he wanted to support Jewish people having a right to pray in the location", and I'm unsure if that's even why he visited. So first, can you provide a source that says that the reason he went to visit the Temple Mount was to support Jewish people who want to pray there? Second, your wording mixes up two very different issues - the issue of access (which Jews had prior to Sharon's visit), and the issue of prayer (which was restricted to Muslims both before and after his visit). The law banning prayer isn't a matter of Jews versus Arabs (a comparison of apples and oranges); it's about Muslims and non-Muslims. ← George 16:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I reverted your last edit, George. Please discuss before making changes. Regards.--Mbz1 (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I reverted your last edit, Mbz1. Please discuss before making changes. Regards. --166.217.187.155 (talk) 21:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

We now seem to be at the "discuss" part of the bold, revert, discuss cycle, so let's go through the individual changes proposed by Jaakobou:

• Jaakobou proposes "stated that the IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs and suggested variously..."; SlimVirgin prefers "suggested variously that the IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs." Jaakobou's version assumes that all the "investigations" concluded that the IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs. Is this the case and if so, what is the source for this statement? It should not be restored without a source.
• Jaakobou wants to add a statement about Sharon's visit making "Islamic administration over the site by the Waqf and the ban on non-Muslim prayer a hotly contested issue". This has been disputed and there have been a number of unanswered questions about this on the talk page (see George above); what is the source for this statement? None is cited. Again, it should not be included without a source.
• Jaakobou wants to replace "Philippe Karsenty, was sued by France 2 for defamation, after he accused them of having broadcast a hoax, but a verdict in 2006 in the network's favour" with "Philippe Karsenty, was sued by France 2 for defamation, after he accused the French public network of broadcasting images from an orchestrated scene, but a verdict in 2006 in France 2's favour". I think on this issue he might have a point. The cited source says: "M. Karsenty était poursuivi pour avoir affirmé que les images diffusées par la chaîne publique en septembre 2000, montrant la mort sous les balles israéliennes d'un enfant palestinien blotti dans les bras de son père, pendant l'intifada, relevaient de la mise en scène ..." The term "mise en scène" is hard to translate into English as there's no direct equivalent, but "staged scene" would be closer to the mark than "hoax". On a stylistic point, using "France 2" twice in a sentence is repetitious and I suggest that SlimVirgin's use of "the network" for the second instance is better style. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Heyo ChrisO,

First, I'd like to thank you for listing down your concerns. Here's my addressing them, do let me know if I missed something.

• IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs - It would seem that you've not been following the recent discussions and changes so much since I pointed out the exact phrase from the source that is currently used for the IDF issue. Anyways, no harm done and you can find it here - per "Whatever happened to him, he was not shot by the Israeli soldiers who were known to be involved in the day's fighting—or so I am convinced, after spending a week in Israel talking with those examining the case." If you need some other backup source for the "stated that Israeli soldiers could not have shot him" style text, let me know. It should be a problem as almost every investigation stated with that statement.
• ban on non-Muslim prayer - We've had quite a few things there without a source and certainly, the places being holy does not explain why Sharon visited there as he is not a religious person. There's really no problem in adding a source here and a peaceful interaction would be appreciated in the event of mere concern that a source would benefit the text. Anyways, now that George stated his concern to be that I am incorrect, we can resolve this through sources instead of by vague reverts by a couple of his buddies (SlimVirgin and anon IP). I'll add one here a little later (its partly noted in the "The visit" wiki-linking in the text) but first I'd like to frame the arguments that need resolving away from the ones that are clear cut.
• broadcasting images from an orchestrated scene - Agreed. If anyone else has something to add, do let me know so we canwork this point out.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 23:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. Taking those in order:

• I don't see the relevance of the source you just cited - it doesn't address the issue I raised. If you want to assert that all the various investigations acquitted the IDF, you need to find a source that says that - some sort of review or overview of the investigations. Fallows was a fairly early commentator (2003, apparently). Without such a source your statement is basically original research.
• By all means resolve this through sources. Please bring them to this talk page and get consensus for including this interpretation of the significance of Sharon's visit.
• I suggest changing the line in question to: "Philippe Karsenty, was sued by France 2 for defamation, after he accused them of having broadcast a staged scene, but a verdict in 2006 in the network's favour ..." That is closer to the original French source, which speaks of a "mise en scène" (staged scene) rather than a "canular" (hoax). It also avoids the repetition that you introduced in your version. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Chris, I've changed "hoax" to "staged scene," per your suggestion. SlimVirgin 01:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks for doing that. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Heyo ChrisO,

• IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs - I'm not sure I'm following what you require in your request that I bring a source that "review or overview" the investigations. Our article text says that investigations "suggested" that the IDF did not shoot the boy and the cited source says that those examining the case persuaded Fallows with this issue. In this source, we have the text "The Israeli army, using the angles of the shots, demonstrated that the gunfire could not have come from their position." Would this be enough to persuade for the necessary change from "suggested" to "stated"?
• Israel quickly accepted responsibility if no clarification to the objection is raised with the 'quickly' word, then it is most pertinent and I hope to add it or something similar to it as a clarification that the IDF did this prior to any serious investigation.

p.s. No offense SlimVirign, but you kind of make me laugh in how you're giving yourself and others credit for my suggestions. I hope you'll start noticing at some point though and take my comments and participation with a little less hostility. Just a tad would make a great difference.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 03:06, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• The issue with your change wasn't that you changed "suggested" to "stated", it's that you changed the meaning of the sentence. The sentence used to say that different investigations came to different conclusions. Your wording says that all the investigations came to the conclusion that the IDF didn't shoot him, and that some came to additional conclusions. It's the nuanced difference in the meaning of the two sentences that's at issue.
• Correct. My concern is that (to the best of my knowledge) the furor over Sharon's visit wasn't because he was a Jewish politician who supported the rights of other Jews to pray at the Temple Mount, but because he was Ariel Sharon. Let me put it to you this way: if Hitler was alive, and wanted to visit the wailing wall, how would Jews feel about that? I don't equate Sharon with Hitler personally, but to many Palestinians, Sharon is a war criminal who massacred women and children.
• What value does the word "quickly" add? It implies that things were done in a haphazard manner (akin to something being done hastily), which is a very specific point of view. It would be better to say exactly how long they took, such as: "Israel accepted responsibility 24 hours later..." That's just an example, and I'm not sure exactly how long it took, but being specific is better than being weaselly. ← George 03:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Heyo George,

• IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs - currently -- according to your interpretation since I don't see it that way -- the text says that "all the investigations suggested that the IDF didn't shoot him". Personally, I recall each and every discussion about the investigations to say "IDF didn't shoot the boy" or "most probably didn't shoot the boy" or "couldn't have shot the boy" which would translate to "stated" and not "suggested". 'm honestly not following the argument you're making here since it feels as though you're fighting an obvious change and, now, against 2 reliable sources. If you have suggestions/clarifications/etc. maybe that would help, but I can't persuade you that you're incorrect when you're promoting a dead argument. Have you seen reliable note on an investigation that said the IDF did shoot him? If not, then I just don't see a merit to the argument against changing 'suggested' to 'stated'. As a side suggestion. I recently saw a short documentary on the Al-Durrahs that said, "an IDF investigation, later substantiated by a German television's in depth investigation, declared that there was no line of fire between the IDF position and the position of the father and his son" There's room, IMHO to add that clarification to the text as well.
• ban on non-Muslim prayer - Those are two separate issues and I don't mind making note that "Sharon is a controversial figure in the Arab-Israeli conflict" right before a mention that his visit was seen as a provocation. Anyways, this source talks about "asserting his right and the right of every Jew to visit Jerusalem's holy places." Its not 100% accurate since Jews were allowed to visit but were not allowed to pray (kind of like being allowed to visit a steak-house but not being allowed to remove the blindfold and nose plugs). I'm hoping we can mull this one over and use this source for the note that there is a ban on non Muslim prayer rather than an all inclusive ban. Thoughts/suggestions? Feel free to make an edit to the article text on this one and, worst case, we'll argue about it a bit.
• Israel quickly accepted responsibility - Israel accepted responsibility on the very day of the report and without any investigation. Here, we have the statement that "The IDF, which initially apologized for the death of al-Dura, concluded after an investigation that the boy could not have been hit by Israeli bullets." We also have a note that "The Israeli military issued an apology immediately after France 2’s report aired in 2000" here. The current phrasing makes it sound like they made a coherent decision that they were guilty and backtracked from it. However, its fairly clear from the sources that the response to the event was given too early and this should be clarified.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 21:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• It's simple - you didn't only change the word "suggested" to "stated", you also moved the word "variously", which fundamentally changes the meaning of the sentence. I'll try to think if I can think of a better way to say what you want without changing the sentence's meaning...
• The statement you cited was said by Sharon himself, so it's hardly an unbiased view of what happened. The question is not what Ariel Sharon thought was the provocation, but how most reliable sources reported it. I think you'll find that most sources cited Sharon's visit as the instigating incident.
• What's wrong with saying "Israel initially accepted responsibility..."? ← George 02:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should be held hostage like this by one editor's insistence on constantly tweaking the article, and especially the lead, in the direction of a tiny-minority POV, something that has been going on now very disruptively for nearly three years. It has hugely hampered the development of the article because of the time spent on talk arguing about irrelevant points of English grammar or the neurotic minutiae of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The sentence in the current lead— ..."later official and unofficial investigations suggested variously that the IDF could not have shot the al-Durrahs, that they may have been hit by Palestinian bullets, that it remains unclear whether the boy died, or that the entire incident was staged"—is perfectly clear, accurate, and correctly written. The words were chosen deliberately to indicate that there have been a variety of suggestions and that the lead is not the place for further detail. There has been nothing that has risen above the level of a suggestion, because there has been no independent or official investigation, and as the France 2 news director said, no one can know who fired the fatal shots. I object to J's attempts, by tweaking the language here and there, to imply that the issue has been pinned down any further. SlimVirgin 02:22, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggested vs stated

I'm not following the recent change. Please explain. Jaakobou 00:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Heyo SlimVirgin,

I promise to respond to anything you write and try to find a phrasing that works for you as well if you please try to collaborate here.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 12:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

DragonflySixtyseven has suggested that I need to make a gesture of good faith. As per his suggestion, I will voluntarily refrain from editing this article for one month. I will not edit the article from my Misplaced Pages account, or while logged out; I will (obviously) not create new accounts to get around this; I will not ask people I know - either in real life or online - to make the edits for me. I hope we can still review my suggestions here and come to a consensus about them. I'd like to add that I regret any incivilities that has occurred and apologize to anyone who may have perceived my actions or comments as incivil and felt obliged to respond. I certainly did not mean any of my comments to be incivil and would be happy to apologize and explain them if anyone is interested in doing that in order to get back to a more collaborative spirit of things.
Warm regards, Jaakobou 16:45, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The above is related to this report that Jaakobou filed against me on WP:AN, and a subsequent proposal that he be topic-banned for three months. SlimVirgin 16:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

That's correct, it is. I feel that a voluntary topic ban will serve as a gesture of good faith; should you, SV, wish it, I will post the log of my discussion with Jaakobu in your userspace. (I have his permission.) DS (talk) 16:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

That would be helpful, thank you, though I think it would be better to have this discussion on AN, as it's related to J, not the contents of the article as such. SlimVirgin 17:11, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I posted it to his userspace instead. DS (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

MENA? and date of Schapira demonstration outside France 2

My. Hasn't it gone quiet in here all of a sudden. Great article. Well done all concerned. Very neutral. 2 small points. What is MENA? And the article says Schapira's first documentary was broadcast in 2002 but "On October 2, 2000, 1,000 demonstrators gathered outside the offices of France 2, where Schapira's film was shown on a giant screen." Anthony (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Anthony, thanks. MENA is the Metula News Agency, which I'll add shortly, and I'll fix the date issue while I'm at it. SlimVirgin 20:01, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Jewish New Year

SV and I had discussed this before, but I can't find the discussion in the archives, and I'm foggy for the reason for keeping this. Tiamut had removed mention of it, and Brewcrewer reinserted it. I think we're all aware of the correlation between the Palestinian Authority's call for a strike and the Second Intifada, but what does the Jewish New Year have to do with the PA's call for a strike? ← George 13:53, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Very good question George. I'm glad you brought it up. I was going to, but Brewcrewer's edit summary of "Jews aren't that bad" left me at a loss at where to begin. Perhaps with: "Of course they're not! Who ever said they were, and what the hell does that have to do with the issue at hand? Please, people, a little WP:AGF would be nice. Tiamut 14:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It's important from the Jewish perspective. It's the high holidays, Jews are going to the synagogue and what not, and then all hell breaks loose. Wars aren't generally named for the day that they started, but the Yom Kippur War is, for the same reason. The outbreak of violence on a high holy day is a notable aspect of the violence outbreak. It may be a coincidence that Arabs have attacked Jews on high holy days, and it may be unnotable from their prespective. But it is notable from the Jewish perspective.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you regarding the link between the Second Intifada and the Jewish New Year, and could definitely see mentioning it in the Second Intifada article itself, but this isn't that article. This sentence is specifically talking about the strike called by the Palestinian Authority, and I'm just not seeing any connection between the Jewish New Year and the strike itself.

Since the subject has come up here, involved editors may be interested that I started a WQA request regarding Brewcrewer's edit summary comment, prior to Tiamut mentioning it. I'm not seeking any kind of punishment, but it may be helpful if you could explain what you meant by "Jews aren't that bad" in your edit summary Brewcrewer. ← George 15:30, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Palestinian martyr?

An anonymous editor has twice changed the lead from Islamic martyr to Palestinian martyr, in addition to some other changes. I generally didn't agree with their edits, and both were reverted. However, after the ChrisO's message to the anonymous editor to check the link in his latest revert, I did just that, and found that "Palestinian martyr" may indeed be the more appropriate term. The first source, "BBC News, October 2, 2000" appears to be this article, titled "Boy becomes Palestinian martyr". The second source, "BBC News, November 19, 2000", appears to be this article. This source says that "Some 70 of the more than 200 Palestinians killed in the uprising have been children - each one described as a martyr by the Palestinians." The only mention of the Islamic concept of a martyr in this article, a shaheed, is in a statement by Israeli Colonel Noam Tiben, arguing that so many Palestinian children were being killed because families of the dead were being paid £1,200: "To pay someone money to become a shaheed (martyr) is a very dangerous attitude". He didn't appear to be referring to al-Durrah directly, and I'm not sure that an Israeli Colonel is the best source for labeling someone an Islamic martyr anyways. Do any neutral, reliable sources refer to al-Durrah as an Islamic martyr? ← George 11:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I too found the characterization "Islamic martyr" to be odd. I've never heard it before seeing it in this article and have always seen Durrah described as a "Palestinian martyr". I would support changing the wording to the latter, as the anon has suggested. Tiamut 12:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with changing it to Palestinian martyr. We had Palestinian icon (or icon throughout the Arab world, and words to that effect) for a long time. SlimVirgin 12:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

He's been noted as an icon for the Islamic muqawama, which is wider than then mere israeli-Palestinian issue. In that respect, 'Islamic' captures it more accuratly than 'Palestinian'. In a sense, 'Palestinian' misses on a vast issue here, and 'Islamic' is a bit overly includive, since there's quite a lot of Muslims who are not stooges for the muqawama rhetorics. In short, you could describe him as a Palestinian martyr, but he is also a martyr for a much wider scale group and we shouldn't change the text to avoid this. In that respect, ChridsO is accurate in his edit. Jaakobou 15:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

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