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February 2005–August 2007 September 2007

Time to nip this in the bud

The discussions are going in circles here and it's clear no one is ever going to agree whether to call Joseon a "sovereign state" or a "vassal state". I'm sick of seeing the reverts and the way everyone is digging their heels in, so it's time for a compromise. This is the suggestion I made at User talk:蘇州宇文宙武:

My two cents: replace "sovereign state" with 'kingdom' or whatnot in the lede, and add a new section near the beginning saying something along the lines of "whether Joseon was a sovereign state or not is disputed" and then summarizing the arguments, along with sources, that have been discussed at the talk page.

In short, we need to stop worrying about who's right and who's wrong, and start worrying about how to accomodate both sides in the article. It's clear that the edit warring will never end if we're forced to choose one term or the other, so the only acceptable solution is to include both and summarize the arguments. Based on the lengthy discussions that have already happened at this talk page, it seems clear that there are enough sources and research on this to write an entire new section on the debate over whether Joseon was sovereign or not. So let's all start talking about how to write that, rather than reverting one another. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 03:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I've been monitoring this from a distance for a while... I am not into East Asian History, I have no clue about the who-is-who and all that. Imagine someone like me comes to this article just to get the gist of the whole thing. It would be very helpful to explain to someone like me why this tiny word sparks such a fury, who could possibly have a stake in this on either side, and then simply put that into the article. That would be more educational than any click-and-rant agendas. Seb az86556 (talk) 04:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

My two won -- the bizarre thing here is that the actual facts of the case are not really in dispute. As far as I can see, nobody contests that Joseon had pretty much full control over what happened within its borders, and nobody contests that Joseon lost several wars against Qing, paid tribute to them afterwards and toed the Chinese line on foreign policy. It's just that one side thinks that Joseon was still "sovereign" in practice, and one side (including me) thinks that using a word that means "One who is not a subject to a ruler or nation" is not a suitable description of this state of affairs. Jpatokal (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Good. So put that whole thesis into the present (And again, I'm neutral here, just trying to make sense of it): Does the fact that Liechtenstein would collapse outside the Swiss financial system make it "not sovereign"? Does the fact that Israel would be overrun without U.S. military aid make it "not sovereign"? Does the fact that Lesotho wouldn't have a chance in a confrontation with South Africa make it "not sovereign"? In the end, it might be wise to omit the word altogether... Seb az86556 (talk) 05:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but attempting to remove that word is precisely what triggered this edit war. Jpatokal (talk) 10:24, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

So here's an idea: Instead of having the wikilink lead to sovereign state, why not link the word sovereign? That article gives an extensive history of the word, how it came about, what it used to mean, and what it's come to mean. Readers can then make up their own minds. Seb az86556 (talk) 18:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Ri Dynasty

this kingdom was called Korea at that time. 'The country was officially called Korea at that time, but is often referred to in history as the Ri Dynasty.' Gzhao (talk) 22:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

That link does not work. And what are you trying to suggest with this comment? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 22:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ri Dynasty is the historical name used by Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) 조선민주주의인민공화국. i tried this link just a moment ago. http://www.kcckp.net/en/news/news_view.php?23+663 Gzhao (talk) 23:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see what you're trying to say. Are you saying you think this article's title should be changed? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 00:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

there is no evidence that 'Kingdom of Great Joseon' is used at that time. Ri Dynasty is the historical name,and korea(joseon) is the official name at that time. Gzhao (talk) 01:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

please checkkr wiki, use 조선 (Joseon); ja wikiuse 李氏朝鮮(Ri Dynasty) or Joseon Dynasty;zh wiki,use 李氏朝鲜(Ri Dynasty) or 'kingdom of Joseon'(조선국). thanks. Gzhao (talk) 01:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

According to the very links you gave, Joseon (Chaoxian) is the more commonly used name. I don't speak Korean, but I know 조선 in hangul is cho sŏn. ko-wiki uses that, and zh-wiki lists it as both the Korean name and Hanja name of 李. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 01:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

"Chosŏn" is the Wade-Giles romanization of 조선, used (in a modified version) in North Korea. "Joseon" is the same in Revised Romanization of Korean, used in South Korea. Jpatokal (talk) 01:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

so both "Chosŏn" and "Joseon" are different Transliteration words or Loanwords. is 'Ri Dynasty of Korea' the best name for both north and south? Gzhao (talk) 01:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Chosŏn and Joseon are different spellings of the same word. As for your second question, no, Ri Dynasty is far less commonly used than the other ones. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 01:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

yes,i agree with Rjanag,조선왕조 (朝鮮王朝)used more often than 李氏朝鮮(Ri Dynasty) in Korea today, but i want to know where is 대조선국 （大朝鮮國) 'Kingdom of Great Joseon' come from? it seems someone modified this in may 2007. Gzhao (talk) 02:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The three different Wikipedias may possibly serve as a POV fork, where JP Wiki and ZH Wiki both refer to the dynasty in question as 李氏朝鮮, while also mentioning the other names 朝鮮王朝 and 朝鮮國, but never uses the term 大朝鮮國, which is the case on the KR Wiki. To avoid any argument over what the dynasty should actually be called, would we be able to compare the frequency of the names in external texts? Oh, and I hope someone hasn't brought the Joseon Dynasty into confusion with the 大韓帝国, which occurs much later. I don't recall that all had the 大- prefix, only the 大韓帝国 did. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The literal translation of the agreed English name, Joseon Dynasty, is obviously 朝鮮 (Joseon) 王朝 (Dynasty). Other names like 李氏朝鮮 may be worth mentioning in the content though. Jpatokal (talk) 07:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

One note pertaining to romanization practices: I don't think I've seen "Ri" used before as a romanization of 李. I've always seen Lee, Rhee, or Yi, with the latter seeming to be the most popular one based on Google searches. I suppose there are historical reasons to preserve certain romanizations (in proper names like Syngman Rhee vs. Yi Seungman, &c) but I would prefer to use Yi rather than Ri if it's mentioned at all in the article. —Notyourbroom (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-07-09/Joseon Dynasty

Hello, this is to inform all that a Mediation Cabal case has been opened regarding a recent dispute on this article. As you may know, the MEDCAB process is informal and strictly voluntary; we have neither the power to compel participation or impose any resolution. Our goal is to act as a neutral third-party in helping to reach a compromise acceptable to all. To begin the process, I would ask that all interested/listed parties to please visit the case page and signify their acceptance of mediation, and me as mediator, by signing. Thank you, Vicenarian 09:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello. It's been about a month since this mediation case was opened, and so far only one participant has accepted. If there are others who still wish to participate, please let me know by signing your acceptance on the case page. Otherwise, I will be closing the case in a few days. Regards, Vicenarian 14:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Joseon was not part of Qing

It said, "In 1895, The Joseon Dynasty was forced to write a document of independence from the Qing Dynasty after the Japanese victory in the First Sino-Japanese War and its peace treaty, the Treaty of Shimonoseki. From 1897 to 1910, Korea was formally known as the Korean Empire to signify a sovereign nation no longer a tributary of the Qing Dynasty. The Joseon Dynasty came to an end in 1910, when the Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty was enforced by the Empire of Japan." But it was a completely independent dynasty. I think that we should get rid of that controversial section.

It had not been giving tributes to China as much at the time. It does not make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.123.254.239 (talk) 19:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Knock off the bold. We can read text, thank you. And it does make sense - "independence" in this context means being free from the tributary relationship; it does not necessarily mean that JS was part of Q. And given by the historical sources, JS was tributary to Q at that time. If you can provide WP:RS, then be WP:BOLD and change it. If not, well there's not much you can do. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

"List of countries in 1708"

What purpose does this edit serve? I stopped just short of reverting it, and decided to bring it up on the talk page. —Notyourbroom (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I found it pretty silly, too, and to be honest I'm tempted to put that list article up for AfD. Have you notified the editor of this discussion? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 20:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

At your suggestion, I've just notified the editor with a link to this thread. —Notyourbroom (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Name of kingdom

South Korea is 大韓民國 but we don't translate that "Great Republic of Korea", so likewise, 大朝鮮國 is just "Kingdom of Joseon". (Although, literally, that should be "Country of Joseon" and only 朝鮮王朝 is Kingdom...) Jpatokal (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no particular preference over one way or the other. However, your induction is unfortunately "original research" without source nor does not match the literal meaning of the hanja. Let me compare one example. If you see the top of the infobox in the intro of Ming Dynasty, the "autonym is stated "Great Ming" "大明" even though the article title is "Ming Dynasty". Please tell me why the Chinese characters of "大明" is not just "Ming". The article is a Featured article, so I think this standard is more stable than your own WP:OR. I'm not sure whether you're a native English speaker, but I've never seen that Joseon is styled as "Country of Joseon" so are even other states or dynasties. I easily found many reliable source for the native name, 大朝鮮國, so I'm gonna insert the source and revert your edit. Thanks.--Caspian blue 02:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

There are several issues here. First, the Ming dynasty article is very clear that there are two names, 明朝 and 大明(国), with different literal translations: the first is "Ming Dynasty", the second is "Great Ming (Empire)". This is also true for Joseon, since 大朝鮮國 uses just 國 ("nation, country, nation-state" -- not kingdom, not dynasty) while 朝鮮王朝 is an explicit and literal translation of "Joseon Dynasty".

The second issue, though, is your claim that 大朝鮮國 is "correct" and 朝鮮國 is not. Both the Chinese and the Japanese Wikipedias assert that the legal name (正式的国号/正式の国号) is simply 朝鮮國, without the 大 in front, with only the Korean WP using the 大朝鮮國 form. At the very least, both forms should be mentioned. Jpatokal (talk) 05:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Your logic have many problems on the own. The first raised contest could be very simply resolved once we add "Kingdom of Great Joseon" to the intro with the hanja. I provided an "analysis" that Joseon Dynasty is a common name referring to the state and "大朝鮮國" was an officially used name. The conventional long name refers to "the official name" called by Koreans, not by foreigners. We won't have any problem if we just add "朝鮮國" ("Joseon Kingdom") to the intro or create a naming section that include the name.

I think you know very little about Korean history or Korean culture since ""Joseon Kingdom" (Chosun or Choson Kingdom) or "Kingdom of Joseon" is also commonly used in academic sources or news. "Kingdom" is translated to "王國", a form of state rule by king. Therefore, I don't see why you insist on removing the "great". Your comparison with "大韓民國" with the modern concept is WP:POINTy and unfit to the case. In fact, "Great Republic of Korea" is indeed sometimes used, and 大韓民國 itself is the abbreviation of 大韓民主共和國 (Great Democratic Republic of Korea). So please don't rely on Misplaced Pages. On the other hand, South Korean government "chooses" the "Republic of Korea" for diplomatic usages, but our article is at South Korea which is translated into hanja as 南韓 but this is not in the infobox.

I never said that 朝鮮國 is incorrect. I restored the previous edit because tThe required parameters are for its "native name" and "conventional long name. , not "conventional name". As I've emphasized, you must provide reliable sources for your claim; that the state is commonly called "Country of Joseon". Not to mention, Wikitionary also is not a reliable source. We are talking about Korean state, not Chinese nor Japanese one.--Caspian blue 06:16, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Life expectancy

This sentence is continually getting edited out:

"By the early 1900s, at the close of the Joseon Dynasty, the average life expectancy for Korean males was 24 and for females 26 years."

Scary-looking figures, but what are your grounds for objecting to this? Do you have contradictory evidence? Jpatokal (talk) 12:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

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