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Is Peter Schiff an economist?

Peter Schiff is a political candidate in the 2010 Senate election in Connecticut. He is also a licensed stock broker who makes predictions about the economy and stock market. His proponents call him an "economist" but he has never received a bachelor's, master's, or doctorate in economics, nor has he ever published any peer-reviewed studies, papers, or research of any kind in the field of economics. He has an undergraduate degree in accounting and finance and has not attended graduate school. Please help us decide if Mr. Schiff is an economist or not. Omnibus (talk) 19:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

An economist is anybody who is an expert in the social science of economics. I must say Peter Schiff qualifies as an economist. South Bay (talk) 19:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

What makes Peter Schiff an expert in economics? He's not once been published in the field, nor has he ever conducted research. These are the activities that field "experts" generally participate in, don't you think? Omnibus (talk) 20:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

According to the U.S. government, if they have four or more university credits in economics then they are an unofficial economist. South Bay (talk) 20:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Seriously? Do you have a link for this U.S. government policy? Omnibus (talk) 21:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I am reposting here as it is relevant to both entries on Peter Schiff as an economist:

This is not a productive discussion, and there is an easy way to get around it. Economist is not an exclusive or protected title, unlike titles such as doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, lawyer etc. which are protected by law, and require official creditation.

As such, there is no formal standard for what being an economist entails or requires. Anyone can use the title - to give an example, I am a sociologist by education but deal with the economy and financial issues. I am also a member of DJOEF - The Association of Danish Lawyers and Economists, and am perfectly eligible to be so because my work relates to economics.

Furthermore, to quote the Misplaced Pages entry on what an economist is: "An economist is an expert in the social science of economics". Expertise can be achieved either through formal or informal education or through practice. Who is the greater expert on litterature - the academic professor in litterature or the award-winning poet? Such a question cannot be answered merely on the basis of education or job title, and the same goes for economics.

Having been educated as a stock broker (dealing with a section of the economy), having been the economic adviser of a Presidential candidate, having worked in investment, having written a best-selling book on the financial crisis which he predicted, and having been continuously interviewed on his expert opinion on economic issues by professional news channels dealing with the economy such as CNBC, it would certainly seem warranted given the circumstances that Peter Schiff be referred to as an economist. Not least because this entry in Misplaced Pages is far from the first time this title has been bestowed upon him (as Smallman12q points out he is often introduced as an economist).

There seems to be a fair amount of POV involved in this article, with reference to the user Omnibus' unrelated statements about Peter Schiff losing money, being mistaken etc. These statements, correct or incorrect, do not pertain to whether or not Peter Schiff is an economist. The arguments I have presented, however, are relevant to this discussion and to the Misplaced Pages entry on Peter Schiff.

Pontoppidan (talk) 00:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

You're basically arguing that EVERY BIOGRAPHY on all of Misplaced Pages can add "economist" to its description of the subject with this claim that "anyone can use the title of economist" is. Just to review, my argument here is not about Schiff being mistaken about his predictions. It's about the fact that he's never been trained as an economist at any level and has never formally participated in the field in any way (no peer-reviewed research or publications in this social science for starters). Omnibus (talk) 04:12, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm not. First off, it's not a claim that 'economist' is not a protected title, it's a statement of fact. Secondly, I'm arguing that the discussion is a valid discussion in any Misplaced Pages entry where there might have been preceeding use of the term 'economist' to said person in question, and where the need to apply such a description might therefore arise. I'm not going to call Roland Barthes or Michael Schumacher economists out of the blue, and no one else is either. If you want to claim that they are economists, you're going to have to put forth a fairly good argument for how their work as a cultural semiotician and a race car driver respectively have made them "experts in the social science of economics". To my knowledge neither have published best-selling books on the economy, worked in the economy as a stock brokers, worked as chief economic advisors to a U.S. Presidential candidate or been continuously interviewed and introduced by media dealing with the economy as 'economists'. I'm not saying you couldn't make the argument, but it would be hard for me to see how. And since no one else has made the argument, and there has been no preceeding attempt to classify these figures as economists, I'd say prima facie that the case to make rests with you.

In the case of Peter Schiff, however, it's the other way around, since he does in fact have the above-mentioned credentials and has been classified as an economists by other people than himself. That means Misplaced Pages users don't have to make that argument if they can refer to the outside world and credible ressources, but that Misplaced Pages users who disagree are left with the burden of proof.

What this discussion is really about is to work towards Misplaced Pages reflecting reality as it unfolds outside of this website, rather than Misplaced Pages becoming an internal reflection on itself and its users' subjective opinions, by setting up artificial standards that have no root in reality. E.g. by continuing to stress an irrelevant point ("no peer-reviewed research or publications in this social science").

Finally, just to end this discussion, Peter Schiff graduated in Finance and Accounting from UC Berkeley. That means he received, with guarantee, extensive education in financial economics. To quote that entry: 'Financial economics is the branch of economics studying the interrelation of financial variables, such as prices, interest rates and shares, as opposed to those concerning the real economy. Financial economics concentrates on influences of real economic variables on financial ones, in contrast to pure finance.'

That means derivates, stocks, valuation, cash flow, assets, bonds, money market instruments - all areas that Peter Schiff has later worked on with expertise and offers his expert advice on to journalists and politicians. Financial economics is just as much economics as behavioral economics or industrial organization. To quote the Misplaced Pages entry on Economics: 'Financial economics, often simply referred to as finance, is concerned with the allocation of financial resources in an uncertain (or risky) environment. Thus, its focus is on the operation of financial markets, the pricing of financial instruments, and the financial structure of companies.

Pontoppidan (talk) 12:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.224.153 (talk)

Now we're getting somewhere. I'm willing to call him a "financial economist" which is much more specific than the broad term "economist", as he has no training or qualifications outside of the relatively small subfield of financial economics (unlike the vast majority of people calling themselves economists, who have training in "economics" in general). Omnibus (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I'v been watching this discussion and I don't see how we're getting anywhere. "Financial economist" is a double expression as economists only deal with finances. User:Pontoppidan made a good point, "Economist" is not an exclusive or protected title. Your counter argument "that EVERY BIOGRAPHY on all of Misplaced Pages can add "economist" to its description" is not in accords with WP:MOSBIO where it is stipulated that biography should include details on "Why the person is significant".

"Economist" is clearly par with "Author" or "Historian" which are not honoury titles bestowed upon their subjects, rather they are earned through various lines of work. It is not up to us as editors on Misplaced Pages to decide whether Charles Dickens was a good author, or if Martin Gilbert is a good Historian, or even if **Peter Schiff** is a good **economist**. If he has been referred to as an economist in credible sources, we include it in the article. You can help by finding these sources and posting them in the article, but not in the lead paragraph.

I have removed the tags though you are free to continue this discussion or bring it elsewhere. You can also create a "criticism section" and add the challenge to his title, if you have a good source for it. ephix (talk) 03:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

:::"Financial economist" is a double expression as economists only deal with finances.

It's not up to you to remove the tag (don't know why you said "tags", there's only one). It will remain until the discussion is finished. Which will be soon I promise, if I can't get anyone from the RfC to comment. So far, the only comments are from Libertarian activists who watch this page... which is disappointing.

Omnibus (talk) 07:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'll remove the tag myself for now but expect this issue to come up again and again in the future, if and when Peter Schiff ever becomes better known and Wikipedians outside of his small Libertarian cult following begin to comment here. Omnibus (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Omnibus, I'd like to point you to WP:FAITH, your comment on me being a Libertarian cult member is most unbecoming, a first generation Wikipedian should know better. Nor is it correct that the Libertarian Party is a cult or that I am a member of it. You brought up some good points in your crossed out post that we can still discuss. ephix (talk) 01:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I am going to comment here as an editor who has had no involvement with this article (I didn't even know who Peter Schiff was) - I came across this on the WP:RFC/A page).

I did a quick search for information and came across these:

1. Nutting, Rex (29 October 2009). "How much has the stimulus done?". MarketWatch. Dow Jones & Company. Retrieved 2009-11-18. "Economist Peter Schiff said the stimulus was an attempt to blow new unsustainable bubbles"
2. Galea, Roberto (11 September 2009). "Economic Forum update: Friday plenary session (12:15 pm)". Warsaw Business Journal. Valkea Media. Retrieved 2009-11-18. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) "A plenary session with Finance Minister Jacek Rostowski, US economists Edmund Phelps and Peter Schiff as well as German economist Wolfgang Clement was held on Friday, discussing the status of economists in light of the present economic conditions."
3. Flint, Joe (17 September 2009). "WWE's Linda McMahon resigns to run for Senate". Los Angeles Times. Tribune Company. Retrieved 2009-11-18. "Economist Peter Schiff is expected to announce his candidacy today."
4. Miller, Zeke (25 September 2009). "More Republicans join race against Dodd". Yale Daily News. The Yale Daily News Publishing Company. Retrieved 2009-11-18. "Five Republicans are competing for the chance to challenge Dodd next November, with two of the newcomers — former-World Wrestling Entertainment CEO Linda McMahon, and economist and hedge-fund manager Peter Schiff — joining the campaign trail in the last month"
5. Chudy, Jola (25 June 2009). "Success can take a workout". The National. Mubadala Development Company. Retrieved 2009-11-18. "I’d been following Peter Schiff, a famous economist who predicted the global recession, and it seemed to make sense to move somewhere that was growing at the time."
6. "Nadchodzi hiperinflacja ("Here comes hyperinflation")". Wprost 24 (in Polish (with English translation available)). Agencja Wydawniczo-Reklamowa Wprost Sp. z o.o. 15 March 2009. Retrieved 2009-11-18.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) "Kryzys nie skończy się w tym, ani następnym roku – twierdzi amerykański ekonomista Peter Schiff, szef firmy brokerskiej Euro Pacific Capital, który już w 2006 roku przewidział obecny krach i jego następstwa." (Google Translate gives: "The crisis will not end up in this or next year - says American economist Peter Schiff, head of brokerage firm Euro Pacific Capital, which already in 2006 predicted the current collapse and its aftermath.")

I feel that there is enough mention of him as an economist in various sources to justify calling him one in the article. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 12:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. ephix (talk) 10:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

• Reply to RFC Call him a self-taught economic commentator or something of that ilk, and have done. The precise label isn't nearly as important here - it's not as if being an "economist" is a gold star or something. Ray 18:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

What exactly are you trying to accomplish Omnibus? There are a number of articles that refer to Peter Schiff as an economist not to mention that he is introduced as an economist both on television and at economic debates. What defines a person as an economist to you Omnibus? Smallman12q (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to withold the title "economist." Peter Schiff is frequently cited as an authority on the state of the economy and possible investment strategies. Being an economist does not require being a university professor of economics.Hickorybark (talk) 22:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Mike Shedlock is referencenced in the article as a 'financial blogger', why is he not an 'economist'? This is rampant hypocrisy, he is equally as quallified as Schiff: both have published opinions on economics, both are refrenced in public discourse, Shedlock is a registered investment advisor and Schiff is a broker, Shedlock is a representative for SitkaPacific Capital Management and Schiff of Euro Pacific Capital. Under the arguments presented by commentators above either both are economists or neither are.--Nikopolyos (talk) 06:45, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

• Reply to RfC He can't be an economist without either any training or employment in the field. Where's the sense in perpetuating a known error? Dduff442 (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not Misplaced Pages's job to correct 'errors' if those 'errors' appear in the majority of reliable sources. Please note Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Bastin 17:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well his bio on the website of his own company does not describe him as an economist:

Mr. Schiff began his investment career as a financial consultant with Shearson Lehman Brothers, after having earned a degree in finance and accounting from U.C. Berkeley in 1987. A financial professional for over twenty years he joined Euro Pacific in 1996 and has served as its President since January 2000. An expert on money, economic theory, and international investing, Peter is a highly recommended broker by many leading financial newsletters and investment advisory services. He is also a contributing commentator for Newsweek International and served as an economic advisor to the 2008 Ron Paul presidential campaign. He holds FINRA Series 4,7,24,27,53,55, & 63 licenses.

The confusion here results from his being a so-called Austrian economist. This needs to be mentioned to clarify his views which probably lead to him being referred to as an economist in the first place. Note that Austrian Economics is an economic or political viewpoint, not a field in itself. You can't get a degree in Austrian Economics, though you can publish papers etc with that POV. Ron Paul subscribes to Austrian Economics also, naturally.

A great many economists would dispute whether it's possible to subscribe to the Austrian school and still qualify as 'expert'. Austrian Economics is basically Classical Economics, i.e. economics as it was when William IV was on the throne of England.Dduff442 (talk) 18:18, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

See also Austrian economics#Criticism. Note the remark by Milton Friedman, hardly a leftist pinko. I can't understand the desire to insert a known falsehood into the article.Dduff442 (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Friedman doesn't mention Schiff. Obviously. So stop asserting your opinion in this; if it's supported by newspapers, it goes in regardless of your personal opinion. Schiff's own website is, under Misplaced Pages policy, not a particularly reliable indicator, either.

Austrian economics is not at all as you characterise. Bastin 11:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Austrian economics is not mainstream and finding university tenured Austrian school economists anywhere in the world seems to be a challenge, frankly. Friedman stated that Austrian Economics is simply incorrect, a position shared by just about the entire profession.

It is not correct to say 'if it's supported by newspapers, it goes in'. It *is* correct to say 'if it's supported by newspapers, we report it's supported by newspapers'. Using a self-published source to support the claim Schiff is an economist would be incorrect; using it to refute the claim is perfectly reasonable.Dduff442 (talk) 11:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

You really are bringing up irrelevant points, but I'm gonna refute them and move BACK TO POLICY, which is what you should be discussing, instead of your prejudices against Austrian economics. 1) You can get degrees in Austrian economics from Rey Juan Carlos University and George Mason University, for example. 2) Carl Menger, the founder of the Austrian School was one of the three fathers of marginal economics (i.e. fathers of modern economics), and another classical economist, Jevons, was another one of the three. 3) Austrian economics was the main opposition to Marxian economics up until Keynesianism, a century after William IV's reign - it has fallen largely out of favour since then, but it wasn't fossilised in the 1830s. 4) Hayek, Mises, Schumpeter are all well integrated into modern syntheses of economics teaching. 5) Friedman does not discuss whether Austrian economics is economics - he refutes a single point, on the business cycle. 6) None of this reflects on Peter Schiff. But, other than those minor quibbles... back to policy.

Policy is exactly what you didn't mention there. Policy is found here. You seem to be treating news articles as opinion-editorials. They're different, and Misplaced Pages policy differentiates between the two; if a position is repeated in news stories by major news outlets, particularly newspapers of record, it is considered by Misplaced Pages to be a fact that does not require attribution. Bastin 12:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply to RfC: In my mind this discussion should be a very simple one. Its' not our role as editors to judge or decide about the subject. What matters is how Schiff is described by reliable secondary sources. If they refer to him as an economist than we put that in the Wiki article. If not, then we don't. It doesn't matter what we think of his degrees or lack thereof.-- — Kbob • Talk • 23:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I second that entirely. Bastin 10:28, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I care about policy. Some of the sources cited refer to Schiff as an economist in passing. Only one (IIRC) states 'Peter Schiff is an economist...'. His own bio does not refer to him as an economist and nobody suggests he was trained as an economist. I suggest his Pacific Capital is a perfectly valid source for proving this particular negative. How about inserting 'He has no professional training as an economist', citing this? Dduff442 (talk) 10:58, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

What you are suggesting above is Original Research, or drawing our own conclusions, which is also prohibited by Wiki (see WP:OR). It is not our role as editors to make conclusions based on multiple sources. We simply reflect what the sources say (summarizing is OK). One editor in the thread above has listed several reliable sources where Schiff is refered to as an economist. So it belongs in his Wiki bio. If you can find a reliable source that says "he is referred to by the media as an economist but does not have the traditional degrees of an economist" than we can put that in also. But we don't say it on our own. We just reflect what the sources say.-- — Kbob • Talk • 21:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Wiki is not a democracy but it is characterized by consensus. With that in mind I would like to note that in this thread there are two editors who oppose the economist descriptor, two who are somewhat neutral and six who feel the term is appropriate for the article.-- — Kbob • Talk • 21:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to abandon this now. I only arrived in response to an RFC. I should mention I'm fairly sympathetic to Ron Paul who is a principled outsider. That he and Barney Frank could co-sponsor a bill speaks volumes about each man. It was Paul's economics that was widely derided, however, and I suggest it would not be necessary to travel all the way to Spain to study Marxist economics or participatory economics to name but two other discredited theories. Friedman's criticism of Austrian economics is not just particular; as with the pricing of goods in Marxist economics, Friedman's critique of the Austrian interpretation of the business cycle knocks out the keystone without which the theory simply falls apart. I'm sure you'll agree that there are a myriad of quotes about Paul's economic policies from during his presidential campaign that could be dug up to make Schiff look very foolish indeed. It is very much a fringe theory. Dduff442 (talk) 21:39, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Duff, your input is appreciated. I am a RfC commenter too and I have just noted that on my initial entry.-- — Kbob • Talk • 22:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

PersonalLife section needs citations

Hi Folks, According to WP:BLP personal info must have reliable refs or it should be removed immediately. Also links to YouTube are not permitted on Wiki either as External Links or inline citations. Let's see what we can do to fix this up. Thanks for your help.-- — Kbob • Talk • 17:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The text below has been removed from the article as it has no sources. If sources are found it can be added back in.

• Schiff was born in New Haven, Connecticut and was raised in Manhattan and Miami.
• Schiff identifies himself as Jewish.
• His father Irwin Schiff is a notable American tax protester.
• Schiff currently has a fiancee and a son, Spencer, from a previous marriage.-- — Kbob • Talk • 18:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This un-sourced text was removed and can be put back in when/if reliable sources are found

• In 2008, encouraged by an online grassroots movement, Schiff began considering a campaign for the U.S. senate as a Republican. In July 2009, Schiff formed an exploratory committee to solicit contributions and general feedback on a proposed political campaign. On September 17, 2009 Schiff officially announced his candidacy on the MSNBC Morning Joe show.
• Schiff was an economic adviser for Ron Paul's campaign in the 2008 Republican Party primaries, at which time he expressed support for sound money, limited government, and free-market capitalism.

I believed those were sourced...those are indeed true, so sources should be fairly easy to find.Smallman12q (talk) 23:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

If you can source them Small that would be great. I'm just being careful per BLP guidelines. Thanks for your help.-- — Kbob • Talk • 23:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Controversies

There are notable controversies and numerous citations that point peter schiff as one of the most influential men of the 21 century. Western Pines (talk) 04:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you please give some links to reliable sources?Smallman12q (talk) 02:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"Opposed"

This part of Schiffs bio listed no sources. It also did not give any indication for what it meant. Opposed by? Opposed to? Opposing these people in the upcoming election? It made no sense, and was unsourced. Weakopedia (talk) 15:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

in pretty much all of Schiffs frequent video blogs and TV appearances he is seen to express his strong disagreement with Greenspan, Obama, Bernanke etc. In chapter 1 of Crashproof, his book, he particularly singles out Greenspan as one of the most incompetent people ever, closely followed by Bernanke.--Penbat (talk) 15:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The reader of this encyclopedia page, upon seeing a section titled "Opposed" and a list of names, has to research the article to understand what the opposed referes to. The word opposed means nothing without context. If it is important that Schiff opposes these people then it should go in the body of the article, with sources and context, not in the box with his picture and other details. Weakopedia (talk) 15:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? You make no sense.--Screwball23 talk 16:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense to me: the infobox just says "opposed." It doesn't explain if he is opposing these people, if these people are opposing him, or what. Basically, it is ambiguous and confusing to readers, so it should be moved to the body of the article. Perhaps it could go in the "economic views" section, and state exactly how and why he opposes these people. Also, unless I am mistaken, it is not the people themselves who he opposes, but their policies and ideas. --Cerebellum (talk) 16:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep Schiff just opposes their economic views. Obama, Greenspan, Bernanke etc just totally ignore the existence of Schiff.--Penbat (talk) 18:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I added at least one citation for each of the "opposed" individuals. If you require more, we can certainly flood the infobox with plenty, as Schiff expresses his opposition to each of those individuals pretty much every time he opens his mouth or writes something down. I, however, feel that having to include so many citations in the small space of the infobox, in multiple ways handicaps the entire point of an infobox, as it makes it much more difficult to gather the information at a quick glance. If others agree, we can remove all or at least some of them...which I would prefer. I'm sorry if you find the term confusing, but that has been the consensus for the infobox. If you have a problem with it, take it to the Template talk:Infobox economist page and bring it up there. Until then, just as the template page says:

"Opposed" refers to persons or schools whose ideas were opposed by this economist. Randall Collins (1998: 379-380) argues that the most important relationships in shaping the evolution of philosophies are "rivalrous" relationships, between opposing thinkers. There may well be overlap between Opposed and Influences (as, for example, Aristotle was both influenced by and opposed to Plato).

It has nothing to do with being "enemies," Weakopedia. Another thing, I'm curious as to why (according to you) this section requires direct citations, while all the others (e.g. "influences," "nationality", etc.) do not. --JohnDoe0007 (talk) 20:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, your explanation makes sense. I guess we could go either way on citations: if we keep them in the infobox, we should be consistent and cite the influences, at least, though I don't think it's necessary to cite nationality. The other option would be to remove them and ideally have more information in the body of the article, with citations. --Cerebellum (talk) 21:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

The reason the references to people he might be opposed to requires sourcing is in case he isn't opposed to those people. No-one is saying he isn't, and I haven't read his book, but if a Wiki editor is going to put words in someones mouth then BLP says they need a source to make sure they are the right words. The better option would be to include in the body of the article the reasons for the opposition, which there must be if the opposition is notable, and that saves having to put citations in the infobox. And I will take it up at the infobox talkpage, the wording is unencyclopedic. Thanks. Weakopedia (talk) 23:00, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense. "The reason the references to people he might be opposed to requires sourcing is in case he isn't opposed to those people." That does nothing to explain why the "opposed" section requires citations and "nationality" doesn't. You could say that for every single sentence in every single article...The fact that he's an American needs to be cited "in case he isn't an American." This is not what an encyclopedia is about. Check through WP:CS to get a better understanding of Misplaced Pages protocol. --JohnDoe0007 (talk) 06:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

You didn't need to go that far down the policy page - look at the first line, where it says "The policy on sourcing is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations.". Your information wasn't just likely to be challenged - it was challenged. His nationality is non-controversial and therefore unlikely to be challenged. Regards. Weakopedia (talk) 09:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

No, notice I linked directly to the "Why and when to cite sources" section...which is precisely what we're talking about here. And I would suggest you actually read the information that follows that sentence, which puts it into context:

"The need for citations is especially important when writing about opinions held on a particular issue. Avoid weasel words where possible, such as, "Some people say ..." Instead, make your writing verifiable: find a specific person or group who holds that opinion and give a citation to a reputable publication in which they express that opinion. Remember that Misplaced Pages is not a place for expressing your own opinions or for original research."

Something is "likely to be challenged" if it is full of weasel words and opinion-based statements...not simply because it exists on Misplaced Pages. Again, without that context you could make the argument that every sentence of every article could possibly be "likely to be challenged."

What's more, your statements still do nothing to explain how why "influences" does not need to be cited, and "opposed" does. Again, simply saying "his nationality is unlikely to be challenged" is not sufficient to distinguish it as something that doesn't need to be cited from something that does, using your logic. Not to mention, if one were to read the article, one would gain an understanding of how Schiff opposed the economic philosophies of those men...and it would be unlikely to be challenged. Just because you didn't understand the meaning of the "opposed" section and decided to try and remove it, doesn't constitute a legitimate challenge. You weren't disputing that Schiff opposed those men, you just had no idea what it meant, and personally thought that it was possible that he didn't oppose them and you personally didn't like the idea of having that information there. That is not at all a licit challenge. If anything it seems more of a contravention of WP:OWNERSHIP.

As I said before, Schiff expresses his opposition to each of those individuals pretty much every time he opens his mouth or writes something down. That information wasn't a statement of opinion, didn't involve any weasel words or original research, and wasn't likely to be challenged. Just because someone decides to go to the pencil article, and challenge the idea that "A pencil is a writing implement or art medium usually constructed of a narrow, solid pigment core inside a protective casing," doesn't mean it is then required for that statement to include a citation. There has to actually be some sort of legitimacy behind the challenge, otherwise, Misplaced Pages would not exist. By your logic, someone could just go around arbitrarily challenging every single sentence in every single article, and then the entire Misplaced Pages community would have to start finding sources to cite for every single sentence. Again, this is not what Misplaced Pages is about. --JohnDoe0007 (talk) 18:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, you ought to try reading that quote again. It says the need for citations is especially important in this case. It does say avoid weasel words but it doesn't say that avoiding weasel words is a replacement for a citation. In fact it says "give a citation to a reputable publication in which they express that opinion". It doesn't say you don't have to bother about the citation bit if you avoided weasel words. Anyway, if you want to argue that citations are not necessary for things you already know find a policy talkpage. I'm off to template Pencils. Weakopedia (talk) 14:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, thank god this weirdo finally left the page. Geez, I wonder how editors like weakopedia even get Barnstars. --Screwball23 talk 15:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

The same way people like Marisa Tomei get Oscars. --JohnDoe0007 (talk) 16:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I also oppose the the "Oppose" section in the InfoBox. The purpose of the InfoBox is to summarize bio data such as age, birthplace, religion, education etc. It is not the place to summarize the political or economic views of the subject. It would be more appropriate to have a section in the article that discusses this topic rather than a section in the InfoBox. Furthermore, combining sources to create a conclusion ie Schiff is opposed to Mr.X and Mr. Y is original research and is prohibited under WP:OR. If there is a reliable secondary source that says that Schiff opposes various people and lists there names than that can be in the article. But for an editor(s) to combine sources to come to that conclusion is against Wiki policy and it is especially improper in the Info Box.-- — Kbob • Talk • 16:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

On the subject of citations WP:BLP which is a core policy of Misplaced Pages says: "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not complying with this may be removed. This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable, and whether it is in a biography or in some other article."a-- — Kbob • Talk • 16:57, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that WP policy generally suggests heavier scrutiny for biographical information. Also, I'll note that one of the editors above should strike his derogatory comments aimed at another participant --- the matter really is NOT that serious. BigK HeX (talk) 17:02, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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