Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:57, 25 April 2010

Biography: Science and Academia Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the science and academia work group.

Environment: Climate change Start‑class

This environment-related article is part of the WikiProject Environment to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the environment. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly categorized. Read Misplaced Pages:Contributing FAQ and leave any messages at the project talk page.EnvironmentWikipedia:WikiProject EnvironmentTemplate:WikiProject EnvironmentEnvironment Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Climate change.

Template:Community article probation

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Archives

PSU Investigation UEA Controversy

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Ok - Are we ready to include Penn State's initial findings yet?

http://www.research.psu.edu/orp/Findings_Mann_Inquiry.pdf The University has decided that further investigation of Allegation 4 is required by a diverse selection of distinquished science faculty. I'm sure the page locking crowd will manage to squeeze in that they decided to not pursue Allegations 1 - 3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.129.57 (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox or means of promotion

I've twice removed portions of a discussion from this page because it was being used to promote opinions about the subject matter, rather than discuss the content of the article. Please be aware that Misplaced Pages is not the place for propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, opinions on the merits of the subject matter, nor for scandal mongering or gossip. --TS 11:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

How dare you accuse others of what you so clearly practice, TS. 173.168.129.57 (talk) 06:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

To unregistered user at domain:173.168.129.57 First of all register otherwise no one will take you seriously. Secondly, TS is absolutely right.Bill Heller (talk) 02:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Partial Bibliography

I noted Atmoz removed the apparent Curriculum Vitaepartial bibliography in the article and then Scjessey promptly reverted the edit. I plan on removing it again (and from any other scientists I find it on, so far only Jim Salinger and David Wratt) because I can't find the same dull section in an article about a scientist outside of GW/CC. Please correct me if I'm wrong (not about a scientist outside of GW/CC that has it, but rather that it appears with some consistency in general.)

I realize this sounds like I'm pushing an agenda, but I have consulted other researchers outside of GW/CC, specifically:

• Steven M. Bellovin
• Harry Nyquist
• Jay Wright Forrester
• Claude Shannon
• Paul Dirac
• John Stewart Bell
• Niels Bohr -- similar looking but note that these are books and a single article in a magazine, not a research paper in a journal.
• R. Stanley Williams
• Bruce Schneier

Readers who really are interested in the research papers my Mann are about 2 or 3 clicks away, I'd imagine, given the external links to the scientists' personal site. In general, however, I feel that it is unnecessary and cumbersome to the average Misplaced Pages reader.

Further, in many of these papers Mann isn't the lead author (I realize there is no brightline on this) and if these papers that are listed are really of any notability, that material should be merged into the appropriate section in the scientist's article.

I'd like to note one other problem I'm having with the section -- it was under the head "Selected Publications" -- my question is, selected by who?

jhe_iv (talk) 09:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Note: As Stephen Schulz pointed out, my terminology was incorrect. I wrote Curriculum Vitae when I really meant partial bibliography. My apologies. He also noted an exception to search, finding another article listing research works (Albert Einstein). Despite this, I still feel that removing the section cleans up the page and does not detract from the typical (or even most) user's experience. jhe_iv (talk) 09:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

To add: For counterexamples, see Werner_Heisenberg#Publications, Søren_Kierkegaard#Selected_bibliography, Albert_Einstein#Publications, Stephen_Hawking#Selected_publications, List of publications by Richard Dawkins (with a link from the bio article), Donald_Knuth#Works, Stephen_Kleene#Important_publications, Kurt_Goedel#Important_publications. Note that most of these are "selected" bibliographies - as always, what to include is editorial judgement. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems many of the selected / important publications of these scientists are books rather than journal articles (I could be wrong, I'm tired - please insert "It seems" before each of these)

• Heisenberg: does have a significant section of research papers
• Kierkegaard: Looks like mostly books -- I can't really find a journal article in the huge list -- but I really don't have experience with these titles and I spent about 30 seconds on the page.
• Einstein: a significant amount of research papers listed
• Hawking: looks like all books, possibly one article if I guessed wrong.
• Dawkins: a tremendous amount of articles (and its a separate page -- I actually like that idea)
• Knuth: Zero articles, all books
• Kleene: 2 journal articles
• Goedel 2 journal articles (and one is complimented with a link to a .pdf -- thats great!)

Given these links, it still seems as if Mann's bibliography is not in line with the majority of scientists surveyed. (In the fact that there is a very long list consisting only of research papers and no books and that Mann is often not the lead author. I still think it should be removed (or pared down to a few (no more than 3) articles. jhe_iv (talk) 10:03, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the links -- I'll check them out -- another problem I can't get my head around is the fact that most of these articles are not available to a user who isn't subscribed to either the journal or to a consortium service that provides access. This doesn't make much sense to me -- as if they were links rather than just mentions, they would probably be removed due to WP:EL sections 6 or 7. jhe_iv (talk) 09:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Publications are the visible output of an academic's work, so they play an important role in his or her biography. Looking over the various articles, it seems like the trend (though not universal) is that more complete biographies do have a list of publications, usually selected. Publication habits change - books used to be the standard way to express ideas, and "learned papers" were of less importance. Due to the much faster publication cycle in the last 30 years and even more today, journal publications have become the most important outlet for most scientists. I think a reasonable compromise for contemporary scientists is to list only the most important publications, as evidenced either by citation count in Google Scholar or ISI or some other recognized index, or by attention in the popular press. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I can accept that reasoning, but would you agree that trimming down the section is desirable? Also, how would you suggest determining which articles are appropriate for conclusion? Specifically, 50 citations, 1000 citations? For some niche areas of research, having 50 citations is extremely desirable, while in others, 50 is nothing and something more like 1000 is reasonable . One of the reasons I removed the section was because attempting to determine that is like opening a can of worms in my opinion. jhe_iv (talk) 10:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

When I've done these, I try to go for the most-cited -- which, convniently, is the order Google Scholar puts them in. Does look like some pretty minor stuff here, and missing some major. Pete Tillman (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so there still seem like two open questions then:

1. How many articles should be cited?
2. Are we concerned if Mann is lead author? Do we differentiate between sole authorship and being named 4th? (I bring this up because, although I really don't have a ton of experience with GW/CC scholarly research, in my field, you get to see groups of authors who often list each other (their "friends"?) as authors and vice versa in attempt to help everyone's "paper count" -- which, when identified as such, makes the authors listed towards the end of the citation appear phony. Does anyone know if this is the case with GW/CC or specifically Mann?) jhe_iv (talk) 17:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

• Maybe WMC can help -- haven't you worked with Mann a bit? I also try to give preference to articles available online (or AL link to abstracts), and include "pop-science" works, for the general reader. TIA, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There are 21 selected publications -- say 5 is the selected number, here are the top 5 in Google Scholar, with .pdf links where found:

• Mann, M.E. and Bradley, R.S. and Hughes, M.K., "Northern hemisphere temperatures during the past millennium: inferences, uncertainties, and limitations", Geophysical Research Letters, 26-6, 759-762, 1999.
• Mann, M.E. and Bradley, R.S. and Hughes, M.K., "Global-scale temperature patterns and climate forcing over the past six centuries", Nature, 392-6678, 779-787, 1998.
• Mann, M.E. and Jones, P.D., "Global surface temperatures over the past two millennia," Geophysical Research Letters, 30-15, 1820-1823, 2003.
• Mann, M.E. and Lees, J.M., "Robust estimation of background noise and signal detection in climatic time series," Climatic Change, 33-3, 409-445, 1996.
• Shindell, D.T. and Schmidt, G.A. and Mann, M.E. and Rind, D. and Waple, A., "Solar forcing of regional climate change during the Maunder Minimum," Science, 294-5549, 2149-2152, 2001.

jhe_iv (talk) 20:16, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I Restoried it (well, I added it originally) because the papers *are* the scientists work; the rest is fluff. You may find it dry and borig; so what? William M. Connolley (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't find it dry and boring. But I think it's a WP:BADIDEA, and it would be much better if these were somehow incorporated into the prose of the article. -Atmoz (talk) 22:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better if the articles, if of notability, should be included in the article prose. My question about who selected these articles still stands, as they clearly are not the most cited, nor the most recent, nor (from what I can tell) the papers Mann himself selected. If the bibliography is to be included, certainly there should be some criteria used to determine which articles are shown, as well as a limit for overall quantity. My proposal is to choose the 5 most cited articles (unless a different, agreeable selection criteria gains consensus on the talk page, for example most cited that also have publicly available full-text to be linked to ) with a limit 5 articles -- thoughts? jhe_iv (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Removing all recent pubs is a bad idea. You make him look emeritus. Recent pubs are a scientists lifeblood. One without recent pubs isn't William M. Connolley (talk) 12:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

What is the point?

Why bother. It's obvious that several of the editors here will bend over backward to purge this article of RS facts based on the incredibly flimsy excuse of how "some people" will take it. Grant money confirmed by RS WSJ AND USF, on his CV, but no, no inclusion, because it's only the value of TS's house. The central product of Mann's work is the Hockey stick which the UN stopped using in 2006, but that's not worth mentioning apparently. Direct evidence from CRU email leak (let's not automatically assume it's a hacking incident, as those who wish to discredit what is astoundingly convenient an otherwise indicative of a whistleblower) that the tree ring data which supposedly accounts for 1000 years of warming doesn't accurately match up with the last 40 years of instrument reading, but no, the user has to find the article on their own for that. Proprietary code (source not released so it could be independently analyzed) was discredited by Steven McIntyre in 2003 when he ran red noise through it and still got a hockeystick, later the function that produced the artificial result was identified in the alleged source code analyzed by Eric S. Raymond, but no, that can't possible be newsworthy. Now we have Phil Jones admitting in the RS Daily Mail there hasn't been warming since 1995, (That's the past 15 years for anybody whose wondering how this jives with the CRU's claims up to 2007 that the temperature was never hotter), but no, I'm sure we'll figure out how this isn't relevant. Here's a head start for you: I added Phil Jones to the list of scientists that say global warming isn't happening, so run over there Atomz, TS, ChrisO, or one of these other apologist propagandists that claim to be editing a serious encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages: Great if you want to know specs on a Blue ray or what an imperative programming language is, but nothing but an elaborate hoax for perpetuating whatever bullshit is currently fashionable on the left in the face of overwhelming evidence. You're intellectual dishonesty is killing what should be a great resource for students. Yes, I am impugning your motives, and I don't care what rules and guidelines it violates because you are all frauds. Read this discussion page and tell me I'm wrong. You're a joke, but Goebbel's would be proud. 173.168.129.57 (talk) 06:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-nw-climate-science-questions2-20100305,0,5307439,full.story >> "Media stories have claimed that Phil Jones, former director of the East Anglia climate center, stated there hasn't been global warming since 1995. What Jones actually said referred to the challenge of compiling statistically significant information applying to a relatively short period. In other words, it's difficult or impossible to determine now if global warming influenced the climate in that time frame. "Achieving statistical significance in scientific terms is much more likely for longer periods, and much less likely for shorter periods," Jones said. Temperatures fluctuate from year to year. But multiple independent studies have shown the long-term trend is toward a warmer planet." 99.155.148.45 (talk) 06:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Michael Mann received over $500,000 from stimulus spending

I propose adding that Michael Mann received $541,184 in stimulus money in June 2009. In fact I don't see any discussion s on this here so I'm going to add it, and if anyone disagrees we can discuss why here. JettaMann (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Why is this relevant? -- ChrisO (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Because this is the article about Michael Mann, and we're supposed to include noteworthy information about him here. Receiving over half-million taxpayer money is pretty noteworthy. JettaMann (talk) 19:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I say add it.Bill Heller (talk) 02:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

That is a seriously warped story. What's so weird about a scientist receiving a government grant? The story seems to have been written from a press release from an organisation for people with very weird ideas. Needless to say that is in no way a reliable source. They're barking mad. --TS 19:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

JettaMann, you may have overlooked the fact that the content you want to include (a) comes from a blog (specifically Newsbusters, from which the Murdochised WSJ seems to be lifting content for some reason - its origins are disguised by the attribution to the Media Research Center, the outfit behind Newsbusters) and (b) it's an opinion piece and a highly polemical one at that. He was funded for "his involvement in an international attempt to exaggerate and manipulate climate data in order to advance the myth of manmade global warming" - oh really? You have to do better than that. The source is garbage and unusable for any Misplaced Pages article, let alone a BLP. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, I'm going to add it, and if anyone disagrees we can discuss why here is wrong: (a) it would have been far better discussed *first* - are you in a hurry? and (b) the second part should have read please remove it if you disagree. Please do *not* attempt to imply a burden on editors removing material - it won't work, but it will irritate William M. Connolley (talk) 23:07, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I can see William M. Connolley is indeed irritated - a full stop would have worked wonders there. ;-) Seriously though, as WP:BLP says, "The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages rests with the person who adds or restores material. Therefore, an editor should be able to demonstrate that it complies with all Misplaced Pages content policies and guidelines." Where material is likely to be contentious, as this was always going to be, it would have been better discussed first. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

This is quite an over-reaction in my opinion. I added a fact that is backed up by a referenced link to the WSJ, which has a stellar record for accuracy. Misplaced Pages certainly doesn't have a problem with links to the WSJ. If you think the information is too biased, here's a different link: I don't know if you guys are all millionaires or something, but half a million in grant money from the Federal stimulus plan seems noteworthy to me.JettaMann (talk) 20:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You added an Editorial/Op-Ed, and Opinion articles are certainly is something that Misplaced Pages in general has a problem with on BLP articles. Half a million dollars in a research grant isn't very notable, and it doesn't go to Mann personally (you do know that - right?), it is for research from 2009-2011 for 3 researchers. I have to say btw. that i doubt if this is from any "stimulus" package - since normally such grants are advertised up to a year in advance --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, part of the stimulus money was short-circuited to already applied-for research projects with a strong evaluation, but no budget. So its not impossible. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not even an op-ed. It's a post from the Newsbusters blog which the WSJ has reposted for some reason. The second paragraph makes its origins clear, as does the attribution to Newsbusters' parent organisation: "As NewsBusters reported on November 28..." -- ChrisO (talk) 21:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually it turns out to be even worse sourced than I thought. It appears to come from the 9/11 Truther blog PrisonPlanet.com - see for the original article. God only knows why the WSJ has chosen this as a source for its own website. Evidently Murdoch has driven it off the cliff faster than I had thought. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

So it is your contention that the $541,184 figure is incorrect? I highly doubt that the WSJ didn't do some checking on this, and so far I haven't seen a retraction. It's been many days and Mann could have refuted this by now if it was incorrect. JettaMann (talk) 17:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying that we don't know if it's right or wrong, since the source is a crank outlet. A post from a nutjob blog doesn't somehow become usable by being laundered through the website of the WSJ. As for "why hasn't Mann refuted it", have you seen the number of claims directed against him from anti-science cranks? If he spent his time trying to rebutt them all he'd never get anything else done. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Here we go, absolute proof from the NSF listing the grant to Michael Mann. Let's post it. JettaMann (talk) 16:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The figure is correct (its on Mann's CV). As for why he hasn't "refuted it" - let me ask you: "Have you stopped beating your wife yet". Refuting lends legitimacy. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not even sure its relevant -- its almost like saying that Mann enjoys going to the Dunkin Donuts on College Avenue... so what? At least my two cents. jhe_iv (talk) 02:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It seems almost to be an attempt to claim guilt by association - since the stimulus is a right-wing bogeyman (let's not mention Bush's role, eh?), than obviously Mann's allegedly receiving funds from it is a Bad Thing. I can see no real reason to report this other than an attempt to discredit Mann. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Have to agree with ChrisO here. I infer the interest in including this fact is to imply in some way that Mann has a financial conflict of interest. If so, that's inappropriate. If Mann's work were publicly criticized on that basis in reliable sources, noting that wouldn't necessarily violate WP:BLP... but even then, given that Dr. Mann is perfectly entitled to apply for and receive legal government grants for his work, I'm not sure even that is noteworthy. --DGaw (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

No, nothing is inferred. That's in your head. How can a fact be either "right wing" or "left wing"? It's just a fact, and a very notable one at that. JettaMann (talk) 16:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The grant was funded by the National Science Foundation. The fact that the right wing does not want science funded is not news, and is not an appropriate topic for this article. Mann has had many grants, this one is not special. -Atmoz (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Any controversy regarding this has nothing to do with the "right-wing" or "nut jobs" or whatever other adjectives you and a few others a throwing out there to denigrate anyone that would disagree with you. The story is that the stimulus funds were supposed to go towards job creation and retention, and from the looks of it, it is hard to see how this would fall under either. Now I am not saying it belongs, but it would be nice if the dicussion did not turn into absurd strawman arguments that the right doesn't want science, which is to say the least just plain stupid. Arzel (talk) 01:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Researchers are workers too, with families to feed. But I suggest that it was unwise and short-sighted to turn this into a partisan bickerfest. There may well be some local political peculiarities at work here but the main point is that the WSJ piece was picked up from some weird conspiracy-minded subculture or other. It's worrying that a usually reliable newspaper would do that, but not worth losing much sleep over. If they want to publish nonsense, it's their funeral. --TS 01:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The figure they cite has been confirmed, and it's up on the National Science Foundation website (link provided above). So I don't understand how you are saying it's nonsense and their funeral. The WSJ was correct as they usually are. JettaMann (talk) 16:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

There is just one problem with your argument.. no one to this point has disputed the amount or that there was a grant. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 17:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the problem is that, for the conspiracy-minded, the mere existence of this grant is proof of some horrible and nasty conspiracy to do something or other unspeakable. To the rest of the world, of course, it's just a research grant. Nobody who does not speak the language of conspiracy theory as a native has a hope of understanding what the conspiracy theorists are on about. --TS 21:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about UPenn, but AFAIK most US research universities immediately skim 50-60% off the top for overhead (which includes everything from lab rooms to office heating, computers, and secretaries). The rest will pay 2 PostDocs for two years or so - unless some expensive equipment is included. This is a very ordinary grant - I'm sure Mann has had several similar ones in his career, as has any reasonably successful established researcher. It's entirely non-notable ("Bob the carpenter bought a hammer"). BTW, are you aware of Talk:Global_warming/FAQ Q14?--Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Tony, whether or not conspiracy-minded people will think 'this thing or the other thing' is irrelevant. We're not here to interpret things for people. We're just here to present the facts. What they do with these facts is beyond our control and we certainly not going to hide facts from people because we are worried what they will do with those facts. This isn't the USSR, it's Misplaced Pages.JettaMann (talk) 18:34, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

That isn't how it works. Scientists apply for and receive government grants. If we focused on a particular grant without good reason that would be interpretation, which is covered by the original research and neutral point of view policies. If some people have their own reasons for finding it extraordinary that a scientist received a government grant, they're welcome to try to convince the world at large that it is significant. If they succeed (and to be honest, doing so would require a revolution in attitudes to science funding) then we'll routinely report these "extraordinary" occurrences. Meanwhile we don't, because it would be silly. --TS 18:54, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing you are one of the few people on the planet who does not find it interesting or notable that he received over half-mill from the stimulus fund. Tell you what, Tony. Let's put it up there in the article and see if anyone else (not the usual people here) object to this information. If we see large and general objections to this from people *other than* the usual group, then perhaps you have cause. But my feeling is independent Misplaced Pages readers and editors won't have a problem with this being there and will probably find it interesting. Lets take our discussion out of the hypothetical theoretical and let the results speak for themselves. JettaMann (talk) 16:48, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The half-million dollars that seems to be so impressive to you is actually the market price of my small, very cramped middle-terrace house in East London. I've been trying to explain to you why--at least with that sourcing--this isn't going to make it into the article. As I don't have any axe to grind on this, I'll just unwatch this page and let you see for yourself that I'm not the barrier to acceptance of that material. --TS 17:41, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The gullible, ill-informed and conspiracy-minded might find it "interesting or notable" if it's presented stripped of any context, which is how it's been presented by the anti-science contingent, but that would be a mistaken impression. To show that it is "interesting or notable" one would have to do what the anti-science mob have conspicuously failed to do: (1) demonstrate that the source of the funding is in any way unusual or different to how other scientists have been funded; (2) demonstrate that the amount is in any way unusual; (3) demonstrate that the fact of the funding is in any way unusual. As others have pointed out on this page, "scientist gets funding from government" is commonplace. The fuss made over this seems to be a very crude attempt to elicit a Pavlovian reaction from unthinking right-wingers: stimulus BAD! Mann BAD! Mann + stimulus VERY BAD! It really is at that level of demagogic nonsense. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

That's really quite a warped view on this information. Again, facts are not left wing or right wing, facts are just facts. And again, what people choose to do with the information and how they interpret it isn't really up to us. We just present the facts, we don't interpret facts for Misplaced Pages readers. JettaMann (talk) 21:17, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

But the choice of which facts to present is up to us. We present the relevant facts, not irrelevancies ginned up by demagogues to stir up the rubes. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I really don't know how to respond to that. I think there are very few people out there who think it is irrelevant that Mann received a large grant of Federal Stimulus money which will be paid for by the tax payer. People tend to find it very relevant when other people spend their money. JettaMann (talk) 19:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

In that case I suggest you either find, say, 10 articles of scientists in which ordinary grants are listed, or you try to add some ordinary grants to 10 other articles, just to show some precedent. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your methodology that each article must have a cookie-cutter set of lists and information. Some articles have different requirements and different points of emphasis compared to others. The reason this piece of information is relevant here is because people are naturally wondering where the money comes from to fund scientists like Michael Mann, and how much do they receive? As it turns out, it's the NSF, which ties in nicely to other wikipedia pages. We can also link this statement to the Grant (money) Misplaced Pages page. You often hear AGW people throwing out the accusation that so-and-so must be on the oil payroll and oil money is making it lucrative to oppose AGW theory. This is bunk of course, as there is a tiny fraction of the funding available to skeptics compared to the generous tax-payer government grants. This piece of information, along with the source of the grant money and the dollar figure, is a very relevant piece of information about this scientist. (Although I do agree that it would be nice for all scientists in Misplaced Pages to have a list of their grant dates and grant values, I just don't have much say in that, and the information is likely spotty. But it would be a nice ideal.) JettaMann (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any rebuttals to my last comment. I also note that if you look up the Competitive Enterprise Institute and others it seems to have an emphasis on where the funding comes from with dollar figures, so there is precedent for this type of information belonging in Misplaced Pages articles. JettaMann (talk) 14:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

New RS for Mann

Climate expert in the eye of an integrity storm at Philadelphia Inquirer, Jan. 9, 2010

Interesting profile & news story, by veteran science reporter (& media hottie) Faye Flam. Happy reading-- Pete Tillman (talk) 18:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The thrust of the article is that he has had three official inquiries into his research and his work is controversial. Seems like good information to add to this article. JettaMann (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

After reading your precis I read the article. It's pretty good, but it isn't the article you describe above. --TS 19:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure you read the right one? The one I read says exactly what I stated above.JettaMann (talk) 16:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

You are merely reading into it what you want to read into it. The article is much more balanced than your take on it. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Keep an eye out...

The Collegian reports that Penn State will release the findings of their investigation later this week. jhe_iv (talk) 03:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Outcome of Penn State Review

ChrisO - I've made a couple of changes to your last edit. Mainly I wanted to break it up a little, so I've split into two paras, being basically 1. Climategate emails released and Mann's reaction to them, then 2. Inquiry held and (initial) findings released. Also, I don't think it's fair to characterise the inquiry as "Clearing Mann of professional misconduct" as it has left open the fourth allegation. I also made the point that no actual allegations were made against Mann. Thepm (talk) 09:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks reasonable to me - thanks. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks good jhe_iv (talk) 01:48, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

HSI

HSI isn't a good book, and our article on it isn't a good article, and spamming a link to the bio of everyone concerned is a bad idea, and so is singling out a few. So I've removed the link William M. Connolley (talk) 13:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Funnily enough i disagree, so i`m going to put it back, and as you have not read it how do you know if it`s good or not? mark nutley (talk) 13:40, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

So you are saying that you will edit-war over it? Not really a good argument is it? BLP comes into play here since the book claims conspiracy and deliberate fraud. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually no it does not, were did you get the idea that it claims that? And how am i edit warring? mark nutley (talk) 14:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You are at 1RR (your personal limit) and your statement was "i disagree, so i`m going to put it back" - no attempts at convincing - no arguments based on policy - in fact just a bold statement that you were going to revert (apparently no matter what). As for where i did get that idea? Well - first of all i read the subtitle of the book, then i've read several excerpts on Google books. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Even if it does, if its a reliable source, there is no problem. I've seen you insert plenty of sources alleging conspiracy in other BLP articles; what's the difference here? FellGleaming (talk) 17:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that its a reliable source? Do please remember that reliability is dependent on context. And just for your information - i have never inserted anything "alleging conspiracy". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

You inserted reams of material alleging conspiracy in corporate funding links to climate skeptics. As for the source, the context of, "if it attacks skeptics, it's reliable; if it attacks the mainstream, it's not", is not a reasonable yardstick. FellGleaming (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That is true kim, you used exxonsecrets in a blp did`nt you mark nutley (talk) 18:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Not that it matters since first of all funding is not conspiracy, and this isn't a forum to discuss such - the enforcement board isn't far away. Secondly i have never "inserted" exxonsecrets to my knowledge - i may have reverted a bad edit where exxonsecrets was part - but i have never added it to an article. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope sorry FG - i haven't (do try to differentiate between reverting a bad edit, and inserting) . And my definition of what is or isn't a reliable source doesn't differ between skeptics or mainstream articles. If you are going to continue down this line, then i would suggest that you create a user RfC or start an enforcement procedure - since i'm done accepting personal attacks. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Pointless fiddling

This is just pointless fiddling. I'll revert it when my share comes back again William M. Connolley (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Released, Hacked or discovered

I changed to released here, partly because it's the longer standing wording, but mainly because it seems less POV than either 'hacked' or 'discovered'. Thepm (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but it is POV by omission. "released" indicates that it may have been legal - "discovered" tells another POV story (oh - that elusive insider) - while hacked tells it the way most reliable sources state it. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

If we're speaking English, "leaked" is the correct term. "Released" implies intentional action, "hacked" is far worse -- it can mean a dozen different things, and even in its closest context, you hack a system, not a piece of data (such as an email) on the system.

"Leaked" however, means: "To disclose without authorization or official sanction". Which describes the situation perfectly, despite obfuscatory attempts to the contrary. And many reliable sources have used just that term. Fell Gleaming 23:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

It was shown as 'released' for several months prior to the latest changes and, at least in part, that was why I changed it. The article Climatic Research Unit email controversy has, as its first two sentences;

The Climatic Research Unit email controversy (dubbed "Climategate" in the media) began in November 2009 with the Internet leak of thousands of emails and other documents from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit (CRU). According to the university, the emails and documents were obtained through the hacking of a server.

(bolding is mine)

This would suggest that neither discovered nor hacked can be used without additional explanation that would seem to be out of place here. 'Released' just seemed the most neutral word to me. Happy to change it to anything else except 'hacked' or 'discovered'. Thepm (talk) 23:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

That's it exactly, ThePm. The server was hacked, but the emails were leaked. Fell Gleaming 00:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

People who don't know how to write for the enemy have no business changing these wordings. Demonstrate that you can with a diff before changing it again. Hipocrite (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Climatic Research Unit emails section

Hipocrite is correct. This section is now either a coatrack, or so close to it that it doesn't matter. Also, it reads like an out of date newspaper article. It needs to remain relevant to Mann and it needs to be a balanced discussion of events that took place. My attempt at rewording is;

Mann's correspondence with fellow climate researchers was included in the Climatic Research Unit email controversy. In an interview broadcast by the BBC, Mann commented that the "emails are genuine and have been misrepresented, cherry-picked, mined for single words and phrases that can be completely twisted to imply the opposite of what was actually being said..." He wrote in The Washington Post that the e-mails "do not undermine the scientific case that human-caused climate change is real."

Penn State University commenced an inquiry into the matter in December 2009, "following a well defined policy used in such cases". Their report was published on February 3, 2010 and found there was no credible evidence on three of the four allegations and stated that it did not have enough information to draw a conclusion on the fourth question: whether Mann had deviated from accepted practices within the academic community. The inquiry remanded the fourth complaint to a panel of five prominent Penn State scientists for further investigation.

I think it should also somehow mention that Mann had been attacked/criticised as a result of his correspondence, because that's what's relevant to Mann. The second paragraph makes it clear that he has been cleared to date, but any discussion of Mann would be incomplete without some sort of coverage of the intense scrutiny and criticism that he copped following climategate the release hacking discovery CRU incident (is 'incident' ok?). Thepm (talk) 02:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

For now, I've replaced the contentious piece with the corresponding section from Climatic Research Unit email controversy, which was the result of careful deliberation there. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Well done. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

It looks ridiculous, it has to be changed back to Climategate, you know, that word the rest of the world uses mark nutley (talk) 10:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any other problem with the text? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

None at all, just the section title mark nutley (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the section title. However, having thought about it some more I think the section as a whole is undue weight - comprising nearly half of the entire article - which doesn't reflect the relative significance of this issue. It may not be intended to be a coatrack but it effectively acts as one. Following the example set on Phil Jones (climatologist), I've shrunk the section to a single paragraph, taking out the section title altogether and reflected the four key facts - that some of his e-mails were involved in the CRU controversy, that allegations of wrongdoing were made, that he rejected the allegations, and that PSU cleared him of research misconduct. There's no need to elaborate further - otherwise we just duplicate the CRU controversy article and coatrack-ise this one. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Thats not de-coatracking, that`s whitewashing, with copious amounts of paint. And you seem to be intent on calling climategate by the wrong name, why is this? mark nutley (talk) 16:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

We're talking about a distinguished scientist with numerous honours and awards and many years of work. Dedicating nearly half of a biographical article to a single issue - namely allegations which have turned out to be bogus - is grossly disproportionate. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Not when the majority of his press coverage which gave him his notability is about the climategate scandal. mark nutley (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. His public profile comes largely from the famous "hockey stick" graph, long before the CRU controversy. His role in that controversy was relatively marginal - a couple of the most controversial e-mails were sent to him, not by him. I'm well aware that he is a hate figure on the denialist blogs that you appear to frequent, which I suggest has distorted your judgement. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Mann's involvement with the CRU stuff was peripheral; and the entire thing has turned out to be overblown by the press and the "skeptics". So anything here should be very brief. The idea that Mann's notability comes from CRU shows a very shallow understanding William M. Connolley (talk) 18:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

1. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703657604575005412584751830.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
2. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704541004575010931344004278.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop
3. http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0902133&version=noscript
4. "Hackers leak climate change e-mails from key research unit, stoke debate on global warming". Associated Press. 2009-11-21. Retrieved 2009-11-24. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
5. "Climategate: Phil Jones accused of making error of judgment by colleague", news report by Chris Irvine, the Daily Telegraph, published 03 Dec 2009.
6. Mann, Michael (2009-12-19). "E-mail furor doesn't alter evidence for climate change". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2009-12-18. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
7. http://www.research.psu.edu/orp/Findings_Mann_Inquiry.pdf
8. "University Reviewing Recent Reports on Climate Information" (PDF). Pennsylvania State University. 2009-11-28.
9. Flam, Faye (2010-01-03). "Penn State climatologist cleared of misconduct". Philadelphia Inquirer. Retrieved 2010-01-04.

• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (science and academia) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (science and academia) articles
• Science and academia work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Start-Class Environment articles
• Unknown-importance Environment articles
• WikiProject Climate change articles