Revision as of 14:51, 11 May 2010

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
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Active alerts

45g, Michaeldsuarez, and Snaisybelle

• User talk:Snaisybelle
• User talk:Michaeldsuarez/Archive 1
• User talk:45g

This is a continuation of Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive609#45g.2C_Michaeldsuarez.2C_and_Snaisybelle. The discussion was archived without being revolved, and the conflict hasn't ended. The conflict is mostly between 45g and Snaisybelle, but 45g has made attempts to involve me in the conflict as well. This conflict is rooted in Encyclopedia Dramatica's "Grace Saunders" article and has unfortunately spread to Misplaced Pages. The conflict involves uncivil behavior and passing out of personal information.

User:45g is the subject of the "Grace Saunders" article and User:Snaisybelle rewrote that article in the February of 2010. Snaisybelle is presently a sysop at ED. In February, 45g vandalized Snaisybelle's user page and talk page with personal attacks. User:DMacks then deleted those pages and gave 45g a warning.

I'm also a ED user, so I left a welcome message for Snaisybelle on April 1, 2010. This is probably why 45g decided to target me later in the month. ON April 19, 45g left the first of a series of messages for me. 45g proceed to made demands and such.

45g told a sysop that I was vandalizing his talk page, despite the fact that I never vandalized his page. I believe that 45g was attempting to "false flag" me in order to get me blocked.

45g acts uncivil and breaks several policies. As seen in this revision, 45g says Snaisybelle's last name. 45g has also made legal threats, which is against WP:LEGAL. As seen on User_talk:Snaisybelle, 45g has also made personal attacks. 45g has also falsely accused me of being a vandal.

Snaisybelle has also made personal attacks, as seen in this reference.

I came here, since 45g is "false flagging" once again. Instead, of following WP:Conflict resolution, 45g is continuously seeking to get Snaisybelle and me banned. 45g false flagged Snaisybelle, and called her a "crazy English user".

If I can't resolve the conflict here, I'll seek WP:Arbitration.

--Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It should also be noted that User:45g has recently removed my comment to User:ThinkBlue. I believe that it's an attempt to hide this discussion from ThinkBlue in order to get Snaisybelle blocked. I don't think that 45g should be allowed to continue "false flagging" users. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

• I blanked the pages so they would stop accusing me of adding crap. They've been "plotting" all this on other pages. They egg me on because they want 'me' banned. Not the other way around. Anyway, I'll be ignoring these pair. They both spend hours of their life editing on ED and then revert the edits when the people discover it later on, because they have no lives and seem to enjoy harassing people they don't even know. Even Australia is trying to sue that site for the aforementioned slander, so I'm not alone. Would you really want to trust a mod from a site like that? I've been a contributor on Misplaced Pages and many forums for years. I've never argued or went out of line once, and I've never been bothered by anyone or been accused of being a nuisance, 'til now. Just go to ED and type in Grace Saunders, September 11, Heath Ledger or Michael Jackson and you'll see the sick pages they keep under lock and key.45g (talk) 18:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
  • 45g, we're not here to discuss the content and the quality of ED articles; we're here to discuss your behavior. Snaisybelle and I aren't plotting against you. We simply want you to stop harassing us on Misplaced Pages. There isn't some anti-45g conspiracy or cabal. If you believe that we're plotting against you, then you should provide evidence. In addition, I believe that you're the one who's trying to get Snaisybelle and me banned, which can be seen here and here. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

The diffs you provide above show 45g's complaints not going anywhere. Your responses are merely escalating the situation. Would it be possible to just ignore them? Gerardw (talk) 00:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

How will ignorance solve anything? Should we ignore the elephant in the room? Leaving a problem unresolved doesn't fix the problem. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 12:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

• Consider this matter dropped. Do not put any further comments about this on my talk pages ANYWHERE.45g (talk) 20:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
  • I haven't touched your talk page since April 22. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• I see you're still up to your crap.

http://bullyinglte.wordpress.com/2007/05/29/cyberbullying-ryan-halligans-story/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 45g (talk • contribs) 21:43, 30 April 2010

I'm guessing that you've meant to link to this comment: . I'm not sure of what crap you're accusing us of doing. Are you accusing me of impersonating you on that blog? That isn't me. I don't impersonate other users. I'm not a cyberbully. Nevertheless, someone is impersonating you on Misplaced Pages. An anonymous user left a threat on my talk page, but I doubt that it's the real Grace Saunders. Grace is from the UK, while the anonymous user is from the US. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 01:55, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

45g, 1) please don't make personal attacks 2) off wikipedia behavior is not relevant. Gerardw (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

45g has tried to get me banned for the third time now. He continues to call me a vandal. 45g also continues to ignore this thread and go straight to the sysops. In fact, 45g told a sysop not to notify me or the other parties involved, and he is using Emails instead of addressing his concerns in an open environment. I feel that 45g is trying to keep Snaisybelle and me out of the loop by creating a private Email discussion. 45g may attempt to ban us without us having a say. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 12:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

• Hi. I don't even know these two jokers personally. I only know them because of ED. They are adding sockpuppet tags to old Misplaced Pages accounts I've not used in years. They found them by stalking my IP address. I've also made many edits to articles using my IP but without logging in. I either forgot to log in or a log in was not required to edit whatever it was I was editing. Also, they are apparently trying to keep Misplaced Pages from being mentioned on ED in order to hide the fact they are stalking me. Yet they constantly put my photos, dead links and e-mail messages on it without my permission. That's called harassment. Also, they add nothing to Misplaced Pages. Absolutely nothing. They're only here due to their obsessed methods of hassling me.45g (talk) 21:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I contribute to Misplaced Pages. I would also like to draw all your attention towards this revision by Snaisybelle. I believe that 45g attempted to hack into Snaisybelle's account, and he accidentally clicked the "Email new password" button in the process. I would like 45g to stop harassing Snaisybelle and me. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 00:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
    • You mean "crack", not "hack". And honestly, if this farce continues I'd be inclined to block the lot of you. Off-wiki behavior is inadmissible until it starts affecting Misplaced Pages here, and since you all are turning venues into battlegrounds, I suggest you all disengage, or at the least take your fight elsewhere. Snaisybelle and Michaeldsuarez: stop posting on 45g's talk page, and vice versa. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 17:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

45g has recently used a sockpuppet in order to get Snaisybelle and me banned behind our backs. He continues to ignore this thread and asking for sysops unaware of this thread to ban us. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 17:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

And guess what: I'm ready to. So cease and desist the mutual badgering, or you'll all have to go to some other venue for your pathetic internet spat. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I'm stopping. I've also asked my colleague Snaisybelle to stop as well. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikireader41 continues personal attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kashmir_conflict

• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive80#Reporting_personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive595#Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41

Background to incidents

• In an attempt to reach consensus with the wikireader about the joining of two paragraphs in the introduction.
• I explained some reason for justification for the joining as both Paragraph had similar info about Pak support of non state actors Then ask what does he/her think,
• He was cooperative at first and ask for clarification of what i was trying to say .
• Then after that ,I try to give additional clarification .
• He then started to go of on a tangent about saying same groups attacking in Pak.(attempt at a personal attack because the user think i am this nationality , i believe this because of his history)
• Also saying that he is dyslexic and purposely writing incorrectly.But i interpreted this as a blatant attempt to commit another personal attack.(As i am dyslexic as a result this i un-subconsciously misplaced/missing sentence structure and words) I have told him that I am dyslexic before .As a result he uses it at a another chance to launch another personal attack .To prove this accusation just look at the links of his/her history.

• i have worked with other editors whether they be Jewish, Hindu Etc, on controversial pages and have reached consensus on many occasions .But this users has an agenda against me for his own personal reason. This is the 3rd of many personal attacks , Harassment and also a possible attempt of baiting respond to him/her .

Mughalnz (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

How would i proceed from here.

You ought to notify the user, placing this tag {{subst:WQA-notice}} on his talk page: since this noticeboard is only a means to provide a feedback on someone's behaviour — and not for issuing sanctions —, User:Wikireader41 needs to know that someone's complaining about his. Salvio ( ) 15:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, this edit might seem to be aimed at poking fun at you, because User:Wikireader41 appears to be able to write just fine elsewhere. But, for the moment, I prefer to stick to WP:AGF. Salvio ( ) 15:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

so how would i actually go about stopping the user behaving in this mannerMughalnz (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

this is extra info Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable Note, the content in this link was previously pasted verbatim by Mughalnz without a link to the actual page, but as can be seen from this, I have removed the pasted content and provided a link instead. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:57, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

wikireader is engaging in behavior that impersonates Mughalnz (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

• What would you recommend i do to prevent the behavior with the new information i added Mughalnz (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wikireader41/Archive5#re_Wikipedia:Administrators.27_noticeboard.2FIncidents.23Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader

shows previous decision made on similar matter,where the user was temporarily blocked and promised not engage in an sarcastic abusive manner.Mughalnz (talk) 10:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

• What would you recommend i do to prevent the behavior Mughalnz (talk) 10:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

For the moment, I would like to see how User:Wikireader41 responds to your concerns. Salvio ( ) 13:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Mughalnz is the one who is violating WP:NPA here. the real reason he is running around forum shopping here is that I prevented him from POV pushing on Kashmir Conflict article so he is making complaints everywhere in violation of WP:FORUMSHOP as the admin did not feel it necessary to respond to him he came here.

• Impersonation: I am not even sure what he means here. I would like to point out to everyone that mughalnz has a habit of not taking the time and writing very cryptic hard to understand edits and has been warned about it. he himself volunteered that he is dyslexic in his own posts but yet consistents refuses to take extra time to make sure his posts are understandable in spite of being told by an admin here. I myself am dyslexic but take the time to make sure my edits are correct and legible.
• 'Do not claim to be admin' again I dont know where this comes from. even if somebody claims to be admin it is usually very easy to verify who is admin and who is not. perhaps somebody can point out to mughalnz how this can be done.
• Do not ask for any personal details: I agree and I would never do that. even if someone did how would it require a response. again mughalnz's comments make little sense to me.
• for those of who that do not know Mughalnz is doing this all on behalf of banned user User:Nangparbat with whom he shares his POV & who I actively work with various admins to keep at bay. Nangparbat incited him against me here. it would help if mughalnz read this Misplaced Pages:Banning_policy#Editing_on_behalf_of_banned_users and WP:CIR
• He is also accusing me of sock puppetry here. I would ask the community to tell mughalnz not to make such baseless charges. If he really thinks that I have indulged in sock puppetry he should open a proper investigation and I challenge him to do so.
• also he should be told to take some time and make sure his edits are understandable so that he can interact usefully here on WP.--Wikireader41 (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

response

• I agree in the future ,i should take some more time in writing post that are comprehensible ,with other editors in WP.
• But does it give wikireader the same right to act in this same manner as well ,if i do it. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kashmir_conflict
• Also i apologies that accused the user of being someone ,just because the user edits were very close together ,with another editor that only edited two time.
• the user accuses me about corroboration with Nangparbat ,But i do not even know who Nangparbat is .The user also accused me of being Wahhabi Islamic Fascist that is sponsored by the ISI.He also launched personal attacks on other users.
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive80#Reporting_personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41 *Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive595#Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41
• Impersonation ,please even slavio said it appears you were poking fun at me ( this might have been taking out of context ) .
• Wiki reader has been blocked.He has a previous history of personal attacks that have occurred in sarcastic manner toward me and other users.
• If the user believed that i supporting Nangparbat .Then he would have already reported me on editing on behalf of this random user. As he reported User:Nangparbat for vandalism/etc.Misplaced Pages:Banning_policy#Editing_on_behalf_of_banned_users.I do not know if the user is trying to divert attention away from from his history of personal attacks.But you cannot held me accountable for another random users behavior .
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive80#Reporting_personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41 *Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive595#Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41
• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wikireader41/Archive5#re_Wikipedia:Administrators.27_noticeboard.2FIncidents.23Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader+
• I did not claim the user to be doing all the things on copied section about Behavior that is unacceptable . I just copied the entire section on to the page .
• In conclusion .I believe that the users major shift in writing http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kashmir_conflict compared to his history of writing ,also previous History of personal attack and Blocking by admin .That this was a blatant impersonation aiming to poke fun at me ,without being caught .
• I am still committed to reach consensus on the talk page with wikireader .But i wanted wikireader to stop this behavior ,I wanted to tell him to stop it ,but past attempts to tell him to stop have failed .So i did not try to ask him to stop it .
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts/archive80#Reporting_personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41 *Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive595#Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader41
• I also would love to cooperate with the user even though of history personal attacks as shown http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kashmir_conflict in a positive manner with him/her
• If I have made personal attack on the user, on the page http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kashmir_conflict Then user would show where i made this attack .Again i do not know if the user is diverting attention from the actual issues of his continuous attack .
• WP:FORUMSHOP This does not apply as the editor did not respond to give his opinion,So i was forced to go on to this page to actually receive an opinion .What ever opinion that should be have been made this is relevant http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wikireader41/Archive5#re_Wikipedia:Administrators.27_noticeboard.2FIncidents.23Personal_attacks_by_User:Wikireader+ .Again i do not know if the user is diverting attention from the actual issues of his continuous attack.Not 1st time not 2nd time but 3rd time, I want it to be last .
• If the user just stop committing these personal attacks then ,then i would never would have the need to bring him here to this page.Ultimately the user uses these personal attack to stop me from editing on the Pages . Also to prevent an consensus on current/previous talk page .(by going around around in circles)
• I apologies for my continuous ranting about the user history.But the user continues ,continues and continues these attacks .I just these attacks on me now and in the future to stop.
• This is I have pasted the promise made by the user (unaltered) .
• please do not let the user continue divert attention from his actual attacks.
• Again I just want to know how stop these attacks on me now and in the future and how to proceed from here to addressing these current attacks Mughalnz (talk) 08:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)Note that the promise is no longer pasted, and this comment has been modified to include the diff to the promise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:RFC and/or WP:ANI perhaps? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you slavio for your cooperation. I will give him additional info now and also think for while before i undertake an response.Mughalnz (talk) 08:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• Please, do not get me wrong. I do not wish to offend you, but this thread is extremely chaotic, I find it hard to understand what's happening now and what happened in the past.
  

A suggestion for the future: if you wish to link to an edit by a given editor, you should use diffs and not copy chunks of text. That said, from what I've seen, there were no attempts at impersonating you. Wikireader simply wrote an edit that might have seemed aimed at poking fun at you. He has explained his behaviour though and, aassuming good faith, I believe him. To avoid further clash between you, I would kindly urge both of you to proofread your edits, before posting them, to make sure that they are easily understandble and that do not seem to be personal attacks. That's no big deal, though: you both have shown to be willing to do that.

As for the sock accusations, if you think that the other is a sock, you should report him to WP:SPI and not keep on accusing him. Salvio ( ) 12:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this thread is too chaotic, and I have removed the pasted content and replaced it with a diff in this edit. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Would appreciate some assistance with incivility

I'd appreciate help regarding remarks KillerChihuahua is posting about me. There's a dispute at NPOV regarding whether two of the sections are appropriate. I posted an RfC about it on May 1, which is ongoing. KC wants the sections to remain, and has several times in edit summaries and posts called me dishonest, or said that I am lying, in relation to my wording of the RfC.

I realize that feelings can run high, and I wouldn't have posted this over one remark. But an admin or experienced editor repeatedly alleging that someone is lying is not appropriate. We should be able to disagree with each other without that. Examples:

• "No, you're not going to frame this as a lie ..." (May 2).

• "No, you're not going to frame this dishonestly..." (May 2).

• "...But don't lie any more about the policy getting 'longer' ..." (May 2).

• "Stop being dishonest, and I'll stop calling you on it" (May 4).

I asked her to stop here, but the last post above was her response. SlimVirgin 21:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you want me to share your recent email, Slim? Seriously? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I have not sent you any emails, KC, and I find your response and behavior here really quite bizarre. SlimVirgin 21:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

No, you sent one to four other people, lying about me, and one of them was decent enough to tell me, as you well know. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I wrote about you was: "That was followed by Killer Chihuahua accusing me of lying and dishonesty in edit summaries, then asking on my talk page whether I'm still an admin. I'm unsure what to do about this ..." There is no lie there, or anywhere else. You should be able to disagree with people without having to resort to these kinds of claims. SlimVirgin 21:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

What are you, five? This is turning into a "she said, she said" whinefest. You've twisted what I posted completely out of meaning, and you did so intentionally. I asked if you were still an admin, and if so why was your page protected (for a year!!!). which I discovered when I went to edit your talk page for the *other* post, in which I suggested you and Blueboar read WP:CONLIMITED, since you were presenting 3 views (2 yes, 1 no) as consensus to make a major change to policy, which is just laughable . The question involves your page protection, which is inappropriate for an admin - you don't even have a sub-page for IPs to post on! If you're going to be an admin, you need to be accessible. You not only ignored me but you actually removed my question - with a misleading edit summary and then you emailed that absurd "concern" as part of something I'm not even going to touch. I am done here. This is turning into a mudfest. Post whatever complaints you want, SV, its still just you spinning things to try to start a cat-fight. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Look, you claim three views on an Rfc to make a major policy change is consensus, with what, six years on this project? and I'm going to say that's dishonest. You can complain all you want, but that's just silly - that's not close to consensus even for a standard Afd, let alone for a major policy change. You're just trying to change the venue here. What exactly are you looking for? I told you if you stop being dishonest, I'll stop saying it - so are you admitting that two Yes and one NO view on an Rfc is not enough community input for a policy change, or are you sticking with that story? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The section head was misleading. Classifying it as a lie was rude. The two of you are sysops. I am amazingly disappointed.- Sinneed 21:23, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I've noticed many civility problems start with an over-optimistic view of what constitutes a consensus, so I've even written a short section here discussing consensus. As KillerChihuahua says, the RfC was not sufficient on its own for a permanent policy page change. It was inevitable that more people would be brought in sooner rather than later to tidy up the loose ends, so this does not overly concern me. There is no need to be rude to each other. In particular, the sentiment behind WP:PEACOCK is relevant here: simply illustrating the position should allow editors to deduce the true situation for themselves. Each can decide a course of action for themselves. Personal criticism of other editors and their motives is unnecessary. I remember even four years ago when I joined, SlimVirgin was controversial, and although she comes from a different perspective to me, one of WIkipedia's strengths is its diversity. So I suggest that KillerChihuahua refactor her comments to soften her tone, stating facts rather than interpretations, and SlimVirgin apologise for any offence caused in off wiki emails - and both temporarily restrict the debate to the improvement of the policy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the word "lie" was poorly chosen, which is why I used "dishonest" afterwards. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Which section head was misleading, Sinneed? SlimVirgin 21:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"RfC: Should the NPOV policy contain two sections devoted to pseudoscience and religion?" - I did not review it because I did not understand it was a proposed removal... I read it as a proposed addition. Thus I did not look at it.- Sinneed 21:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"dishonest" I don't find any less offensive than "a lie" - misleading simply means the words mislead some readers: a reality of writing for 3 billion potential readers. "lie" and "dishonest" fail wp:AGF.- Sinneed 21:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you suggesting I assume SV did not realize that three views was insufficient to support a major change in policy? That's not AGF, that's turning off my brain. I'm sorry, but AGF is not meant to force rational people to believe impossible things (not even six before breakfast.) KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Not suggesting anything at all. The entire content of my statement is included in the words... nothing is implied... any inferences are entirely the reader's.- Sinneed 21:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Then I confess to confusion regarding your meaning, which is unclear to me. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This edit summary was rude. That is all. At this point I am going to shut up. I am not helping.- Sinneed 21:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I would point out that my mentioning the section head here may be misleading... this is not a problem... just a reality.- Sinneed 21:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I worded the RfC that way because the sections had been removed in April by Blueboar after a long discussion (not simply because three people wanted it as KC says). Then an old version of those sections (not the version that was removed) was restored on or around May 1. To avoid these ins and outs in the RfC title, I asked "should the policy contain these sections," and I explained the details in the comment. People can disagree with that wording, and might have worded it differently themselves, but it's the assumption of dishonesty that crosses the line. SlimVirgin 21:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense to me.- Sinneed 21:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The section was moved, not removed, and it did have other discussions as SlimVirgin (and Blue Boar) have stated. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Stephen, was the religion section moved? Maurreen (talk) 22:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Admittedly the religion description is somewhat abbreviated in WP:FRINGE, and given as an example rather than a section on its own. Stephen B Streater (talk) 05:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

And yet, she's mistaken about what I said. I didn't say "just three people" - I said there were three views on the Rfc, which was titled "Should topic specific issues be discussed in a general policy". There were 3. Only two supported. I'm saying that's not consensus, certainly not enough for a major policy change, and elsewhere have suggested that attempts should have been made to get further input rather than closing as though consensus had been found. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) SlimVirgin, I am requesting you strike your misunderstanding that "not simply because three people wanted it as KC says" - which is something I never said. Please correct this. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 22:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I didn't open the first RfC, I didn't close it, I didn't remove the pseudoscience section (in fact I restored it in March when it was moved too early), and I didn't move it to FRINGE, though I did agree with that move. And there was plenty of discussion before the first RfC. My focus is only on the second RfC on May 1, which I did post. and which is entirely factual. And you are missing the point here. The point is not to accuse people of lying. Of mistakes, yes, if that's what you see. Dishonesty, no. Please stop thinking you can call people whatever names you fancy, but if they defend themselves, they're whining or attacking you. SlimVirgin 00:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Please stop pretending you know what I think. You are dead wrong. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 00:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter whether you label what an editor said as a lie, or claim that editor is being dishonest - there is no difference in the end outcome because that conduct is not compatible with that expected of any administrator. In other words, if an administrator is engaging in that sort of conduct, they are gambling their tools. The whole "what are you, five?" question and the "you twisted my words intentionally" is simply continuing the uncivil conduct. I am mystified as to whether this is a problem of inability to be civil, or a problem of unwillingness to be civil. One does not have to turn their brain off in order to be civil. Comment on content, and if someone is misstating something, then raise the concern civilly instead of making flagrant uncivil accusations about the contributor. That's all. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I think "what are you, five?" may be a standard rhetorical device. ++Lar: t/c 11:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Five pillars seems to put it quite well: Wikipedians should interact in a respectful and civil manner. I think that is irrespective of the way others behave. This is not optional. Stephen B Streater (talk) 06:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• I have found reading the above surprising. KillerChihuahua is accused of being uncivil, and comes here and posts numerous comments, evidently intended as defense against the charge, but themselves very uncivil. I have come across worse in the past, but that this comes from an administrator who has been a regular editor for nearly six years I do find surprising. I strongly suggest that KillerChihuahua should stand back a little, and try to imagine what the above comments look like to an impartial outsider. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• I thought KillerChihuahua's RfA put it rather well: In that time she has shown herself to be a solid contributor with a good sense of humour. At the same time, she has shown herself to be polite and thoughtful, even in difficult situations. NPOV is being sorted, so everyone can relax a little and enjoy life a little more. Stephen B Streater (talk) 08:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• I have been perfectly civil. Explain to me how to address dishonesty without using the word. Calling it "misunderstanding" or "mistake" or "error" when it is none of those things is equivocating. There comes a point when one must call a spade a spade, (or lie and say its a daisy?). I have not called SV any names - you see me making no personal attacks. I am commenting on the behavior, not the editor. Otherwise you would see, for example me calling her a "manipulative lying bitch" or somesuch. You see no such thing. You see me attempting to address, with her, her egregious behavior. I am sorry you are all distressed. I am distressed as well. But I will not alsobe dishonest because you are all uncomfortable with the word. If someone murders, do you argue it is uncivil and rude to call it murder? You're not being logical, and you're merely chastising me without addressing the core problem, or suggesting any alternative phrasing which is not also dishonest. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 10:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Stop and think: you're claiming that everyone but you isn't being logical? I already explained to you how to approach such a situation - evidently from your 3 examples, you did not absorb the example or what I said. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
    • • I have responded to your generalizations, which I did not find as helpful as perhaps you intended. Perhaps you could be more specific, and address my concerns raised in the post immediately preceding this. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
        • Compare the following. (zz) "You've been here for over 6 years and your acting like a school kid newbie - you're intentionally twisting my words; enough with your lies and dishonesty and I'll stop calling you on it". (yy) my original example: "Please don't misstate my position. My position is...." or "You appear to be mischaracterising what x actually says. 2 yes and 1 no does not constitute a consensus...." "Please stop it; you are repeatedly mischaracterising...." In one of these examples, there is no comment about a relatively unprovable intention, but it focuses solely on the content of the matter, as neutrally as possible. It doesn't matter how long people are here or how many contributions they make; people can do or say things they aren't expected to, be it out of foolishness, lack of clue, burn-out, misreading, mistake, experience/inexperience, an ulterior motive, or otherwise - avoid choosing what it might be, even if you're sure that it must be one of these, so that you can avoid excessive confrontation. No one is perfect in following this, as some of us can see through smokescreens and other crap and we have an urge to be blunt (yes, something that we appear to share) - but consider how it might be taken by someone else and what would be achieved. Also, many other users are intelligent and the fact that another user might be mischaracterising something should be enough for others to be wary; let them come to their own conclusions. I've been more specific this time in my examples, and I hope the contrast+explanation proves to be more helpful for you. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• • • By using the word dishonest, you are assigning motive to someone else's action, but you haven't proved that motive - it is mere conjecture. That is part of the issue. Stephen B Streater (talk) 11:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

So what word(s) would you use to discuss the issue with claiming "consensus" given three views (one No, two Yes) in an Rfc, by an editor of over 6 years on this project? That's what, an error in judgment? An honest mistake? And above, she continues to mis-characterize what I say, claiming falsely that I said something I did not, and ignoring my request she correct it. Everyone seems fine with that. So basically you're attitude is that its ok if SV lies about what I said, but if I dare say anything about it, the civility police chastise not the one who is being deceptive and dishonest, but the one honest enough to try to address the issue? I find this outrageous and ridiculous. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

SlimVirgin asked for assistance with your incivility. That is why we are discussing that here. That doesn't mean that SlimVirgin has or hasn't behaved appropriately herself. If you want to make a separate complaint about her behaviour, you can do so. But if editors believe bad behaviour from others excuses their own bad behaviour, we will spiral downwards. Stephen B Streater (talk) 14:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

And again I state, if someone is dishonest and the second says "hey, that's dishonest! don't do that!" it is a very different matter than if the first were not being dishonest to begin with. You may believe that it has no bearing; I beg to differ. I am attempting to address a very serious issue in the most civil way possible. Pretending my words float in an unjustified vacuum is not addressing the situation. Again, follow the example: if a person commits a murder, is it uncivil to say "that is wrong, please stop killing people"? At any rate this is all in the past, except for SV's continued statements about what I think, in which she is completely wrong, and apparently intends to ignore my requests to correct said statements. I do not see that any useful purpose can be achieved here. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

As for interpretation of consensus, I have seen people of all experiences in many articles claiming consensus when what they have is a low level of dissent. The correct way to fix this is to remind each person gently of the way things are done here. Stephen B Streater (talk) 14:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you failed to absorb that I had done precisely that, and it affected her framing of the issue not at all. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes - I noticed you hadn't persuaded her to change her framing of the issue. But if your explanation is clear enough, then everyone else will understand it, it she can work it out later. Perhaps she has other things on her mind, or perhaps she thinks her explanation of not changing things is sufficient. Perhaps she thinks that the context of the RfC - namely a long discussion - showed that the RfC was actually unnecessary, and this was the reason so few people responded. Not every detail requires enormous debate. Perhaps the low level of interest in the RfC, which was watched by 1000 editors, indicated to her no one was really that concerned. Stephen B Streater (talk) 16:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I find this appalling, so I'm not going to comment again except to ask KC to stop making remarks like that about any editor, no matter the situation, whether it's calling them liars or asking whether they're five. I'm posting below the post of mine that triggered this. If Wikipedians can't post RfCs about policy without kicking off this kind of response from an administrator something has gone wrong. That's all I want to say about it. SlimVirgin 19:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Neutral point of view#RfC: Should the NPOV policy contain two sections devoted to pseudoscience and religion? The NPOV policy currently contains two sections on specific topics: a 534-word section on pseudoscience and a 267-word section on religion. These sections were removed last month as being too specific after an RfC was posted on April 3. The pseudoscience section was moved to WP:FRINGE, and the religion section removed entirely. The sections have now been restored by others on the grounds that consensus was not established, or has changed. Fresh eyes would therefore be appreciated to decide whether to restore or remove the sections.

Just one final comment: anyone who disagreed with any part of that wording only had to drop a note on my talk page: "Slim, would you mind tweaking the RfC to clarify X?" I'd have no problem tweaking it in whatever direction, because my only aim was to ask the wider community: should those sections be included or not. SlimVirgin 19:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

We discussed the issue and we've tried explaining the issue in a manner that persuades KC to voluntarily adjust her approach with respect to all editors. I think we've unanimously stated that her conduct was not acceptable in this situation. Beyond that, I don't know why you consider it appalling - there's only so much we can do. But if problems persist, the next step would be RfC/U, though I hope it can be resolved short of that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

"appalling" - well...I was shutting up, but now I am not, and I hope that is not unwise... I feel as if I am watching a train wreck. No idea about Slim's reason, but that is mine. This seems to be a simple wp:content dispute gone wrong. The incivil editor has been warned and is unrepentant (reading wp:NOTTHEM would be good) and is not de-escalating. The content dispute itself is being reviewed by interested members of the community and will reach whatever end it reaches. I think that wp:WQA readers and editors have done all that can reasonably be done in this forum. Either things will escalate further or not. - Sinneed 21:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Erk... the reason it is appalling to me is that it is between admins, regardless of right, wrong, whose-fault, nobody's-fault, it damages the reputation of the incivil editor, the editor being accused of dishonesty (regardless of validity), and by "contagion" all admins and further of the WP community as a whole. Thus: train wreck.- Sinneed 21:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I'm grateful for the input here, and hopefully that'll put the matter to rest. SlimVirgin 21:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• In my opinion, KillerChihuahua's contributions on this matter have been over the top hostile. Alternate phrasing, e.g. It's not reasonable to say there's a consensus when only three people have made comments is readily available. As noted above already by other third party editors, "lying" and "dishonest" are commenting on the motivation of the contributor, not that contribution. Gerardw (talk) 23:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Not that ridicuously overly quoted out of context "comment on the contribution" thing again. This taken to its limits would prevent anyone ever commenting on a contributor which is just ridiculous and is not the intent of the phrase if you read WP:PA. Polargeo (talk) 09:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No. The "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" part. The "Comment on content, not on the contributor." bit is a technique to avoid wp:personal attacks.- Sinneed 14:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Little Professor

I am currently engaged in a dispute with this user over his persitent insertion of a whole section on the subject of tabloid newpaper relevations about the private life of a Scottish politician (Nigel Griffiths) on his biography page.

This user has used a variety of tactics which I believe are not in the spirit of WP:Civility and WP:NPOV. My concerns are detailed at: ]

It is my impression that he is attempting to dictate what appears in the article rather than engage in discussion or properly follow WP:DR to reach consensus. By his actions, it is apparent that he has POV and a possible COI of his own.

I seek to redress this issue in line with WP:Civility.B626mrk (talk) 20:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Consensus, Cooperation & Civility.

I've been editing a number of pages relating to drug policy recently, and have noticed a lot of conflict between a few of editors and, Minphie. Minphie and I have opposing views on how governments should respond to drug use, which is fine, however Minphie has been not been assuming good faith, not been civil and sometimes making edits that I believe are not in keeping with various wikipedia policy guidelines. I would like to request that someone reiterate to Minphie that consensus, cooperating and civility are important here on wikipedia. It's fine that we disagree on content, but we need to be in agreement about how to resolve this dispute as effective editors.

Examples of Minphie not adhering to wikiquette

• Threatening to "take it further"

On the Harm reduction talk page, Minphie has multiple times told other editors (Figs Might Ply, Steinberger, Rakkar) that they will be reported for vandalism or inappropriate editing. We have demonstrated multiple times with reference to WP:NOTVAND that our edits are fair. Minphie does not accept this and keeps telling us he is keeping a log of our "infringements" that he will use to report us. User:Rakkar was reported to administrator JohnCD in early april, and received the following response: I have advised Minphie that this is a content dispute, not vandalism, and that if you and s/he cannot reach a WP:Consensus by discussion on talk pages you should follow the process described at WP:Dispute resolution. JohnCD

• Undue weight

Without reigniting the arguments here, I would like to contend that Minphie is trying to unbalance a number of drug policy related articles by adding large amounts of criticism. As per Misplaced Pages:WEIGHT#Undue_weight, Minphie's versions of the articles listed at the end of this report often contain more criticism than content. I agree that drug policies are a contentious issue, and different people in the community oppose various methods. So it's good and fine for the article to contain information on this, but not so much that most of the article is about this opposition. If I could give the following example, Minphie added so much criticism that the article was about 70% criticism. Steinberger has trimmed it down, and regardless of the exact content, I believe that the article looks a lot easier to read now.

• Unwillingness to compromise

Minphie believes that they have unquestionable truth on a number of points, and is unwilling to engage in debate about these issues. on the Talk:Harm reduction page, they have made the following comments:

• Here is the reason I won't tolerate any further deletions on the Sweden issue. - Goes on to claim to have unquestionable information
• I won't tolerate this clear obstructionism in the future - claiming that because wikipedia policies around WP:Weasel have not been applied to every example of weasel words, his use of weasel words should be exempt.

Articles where disputes take place

• Talk:Harm reduction
• Harm reduction
• Needle-exchange_programme
• Safe_injection_site

I have tagged Minphie's talk page as requested. I hope we can reach an understanding between all editors. --Figs Might Ply (talk) 02:57, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

• Left a message ]. Please note that WP:DIFFs make it easier for third party editors to respond than quotes. Thanks. Gerardw (talk) 13:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

User:75.2.209.226

Hello, I'm a neutral 3rd party that was called to mediate a dispute on an article. It became clear to me that one particular party (User:75.2.209.226) was not communicating in a respectful, collaborative manner, and has a history of doing so. I posted to his talk page, here: (this post is a good summary of the specific problems). His response was to revert it and then post more accusations about one of the users to my talk page. As this person has shown no sign that he "got the point," I think the community needs to show that it thinks his behavior is problematic. I think this is important for two reasons: 1) so that he doesn't think I'm the only person who thinks so; and 2) to create some documentation of intervention in case the behavior continues or escalates. ɳorɑfʈ 23:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Who called you to mediate? Gerardw (talk) 01:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

User:E.w.bullock did. I mediate for MEDCAB on occasion, and I'm the project coordinator for the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/May 2010‎, which the article in question was a part of. However, I'm not acting as a mediator, as it seems to me the bulk of the issue is solved at this point (at least some equilibrium seems to be taking place). I'm here as a concerned editor bringing a pattern of behavior to the attention of Wikiquette Alerts. ɳorɑfʈ 03:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Another user (Centpacrr) has been engaged in a knee-jerk edit war on two articles he acts as though he owns. He has repeatedly reverted edits, changing correct spelling to incorrect, changing proper grammar to grammatical mistakes, and more. He was informed about WP:MOS numerous times, but paid no attention. I'm not sure who called Noraft to mediate. Certainly no one apprised me that a mediation had been requested. In any case, Noraft paid no attention whatsoever to Centpacrr's edit warring on the articles. He paid no attention to the rants that Centpacrr had added to my user page, the wikistalking in which he had engaged, or the fact that he had been cited for edit warring numerous times in the past. Noraft neglected my many neutral and inoccuous edit summaries: "formatting," "grammar, clarity," "'in May 6' -> 'on May 6'," "hyphen needed," "removed unnecessary detail; added punctuation," " reflexive not needed; punctuation needed," and many, many more. Instead he chose to look at a select few that were perhaps intemperate, and he looked at them entirely out of context. In one case Noraft criticized me for placing an "Improper use of warning or blocking template" on the page of an editor who had accused me of vandalism for having changed the word "is" to "was" in an article. I find it hard to see this as "mediation." Noraft appears to be PO'd that I removed his lengthy lecture from my user page. It is my user page, isn't it? And don't I have a right to maintain it as I wish? As to posting "more accusations about one of the users to talk page," I simply posted the history of Centpacrr's edit warring, which Noraft had overlooked in his "mediation." 75.2.209.226 (talk) 00:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

In no particular order:

• No, it's not your user page, it's Misplaced Pages's and there are policies regarding it's use.
• Part of said policies is that user are entitled to delete content off their talk page and that is considered an appropriate acknowledgment of the content.
• Describing editing disagreements as vandalism is uncool.
• Centpacrr has been making invalid ownership style arguments on Talk:LZ 129 Hindenburg which I've addressed here ].
• Diffs are better than quotes.
• This is mostly a content dispute. 75 could lower the rhetoric a little, though. Gerardw (talk) 01:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I didn't bring this here as a content dispute. I brought this here because I think 75's behavior is unacceptable, not in one circumstance, but pretty much since he started editing on his current account. Please don't get distracted by one content dispute when the identified issue is the comments he's made to more than a dozen different editors. Posted here:

The tone of the following comments is of concern:

• 1. In other words, don't claim to be making "corrections", when what you are actually doing is edit warring about wording that has nothing whatsoever to do with historical accuracy, and don't claim to be making "grammar tweaks" when all you're doing is changing the wording. Professional writers make a distinction between word choice and grammar. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 20:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC) (said to a user with 7000 edits and no history of edit warring )
  2. The first sentence refers to a time period in the past; hence it uses the past tense. The second sentence refers to a time period in the present; hence it uses the present tense. I can recommend a couple of good grammar books, if you like. It seems to me that your time reverting such changes and issuing vandalism warnings about them is not well spent. And you obviously haven't learned to avoid discussion about such things. Perhaps 90% of the vandalism you identify comes from IP addresses. Whether the edits you revert are actual vandalism or false positives is another matter. Further, it doesn't mean that 90% of all vandalism comes from anonymous editors, just that 90% of your reverts are of IP addresses. This could just be a reflection of your bias. I can also recommend some good books on statistics and logic. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 22:23, 16 April 2010 (UTC) (said to a user with almost 35,000 edits )
  3. Read, and read carefully. You really need to pay attention to what you're doing and to what you claim others are doing. I do not "keep speedying it." It was speedily deleted once by someone else, recreated by the original editor once, and then I requested a speedy delete, based on the reasoning of the first administrator. Sheesh! The inconsistencies in the administration of WP give me the heebeejeebees! 75.2.209.226 (talk) 17:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC) (said to a user with over 12,000 edits )
• The following edit summaries are also of concern:
  1. (→Rankings: enough already!)
  2. (reverting vandalism - User:Centpacrr has repeatedly been warned not to use academic titles per WP:MOS)
  3. (→Inaccuracies: wordy, wordy, wordy, wordy, wordy -or- Why use 10 words when you can use 100?)
  4. (really lousy writing; still needs a lot of work)
  5. (Undid revision 360320341 by Centpacrr (talk)Don't play innocent; you know perfectly well what the problem is.)
  6. (→Inaccuracies: pseudo-sophisticated, pretentious writing)
  7. (→Other sites: unsourced drivel)
  8. (executive produced?? learn some English)
  9. (→Nature vs. nurture: huh?? this is gibberish)
  10. (now that's a short attention span - by the time you've gotten to the end of the sentence you've already forgotten the first two words of the senttence)

...and those are just in the last two and a half weeks.

I think Wikimedia Foundation volunteers (which is what editors are) deserve better. Regarding deletion of material off of one's userpage, don't buy into 75's attribution that I "seem to be PO'd" about it. I'm not, and have given no indication that I am. I simply said that I noticed he had deleted it, which tells me that he saw it, which is what I was commenting on when I said "What about the other 85% of the message? I saw you undid it." Not sure why he thinks I'm PO'd because of that. I was just asking him to address the rest of the comments, which of course he is under no compulsion to do, and I support his right not to.

Simply put, the above is not acceptable. I brought this here because I'm just one editor, and I thought it was important that the community as a whole (with Wikiquette Alerts as its designated representative) make a statement about this pattern of behavior. We're sick of the incivility, and it is driving experienced editors away. Nobody should have to put up with this in order to volunteer their time. ɳorɑfʈ 03:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The above seems to me to be speech making rather than addressing issues. As noted, 75's tone could be improved but failure to address the thousands of edits and "ownership" aspects of the other editors' actions makes the intervention seem one sided to me. As there's no value in Noraft and I going back and forth I'm tagging in progress in the hope additional editors' input will be helpful. Gerardw (talk) 09:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that User:Noraft has conveniently pulled some of my talk pages comments out of context. One needs to understand them in the context of the bullying comments from other editors to which they were replies. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 13:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

• With one exception, I agree with Gerardw's handling of this. The exception is that I don't agree that 75 should tone it down "a little"; my view is that 75 should tone it down a lot. Good faith criticism is one thing; bad-faith, inflammatory, and/or uncivil commentary in any edit on Misplaced Pages is another - the latter is unimpressive and will not be tolerated on this project. You are responsible for the edits you make, even in perceived difficult situations, and let's hope that these are isolated incidents so that this dispute can be resolved without further escalation. Should this continue, then it will eventually lead to the revocation of editing privilleges.... That's all. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Bullying

I haven't been a very actively editor lately, but I made edits to Indiana Wesleyan University that I considered to be in line with WP:UNIGUIDE and other Misplaced Pages policies. I was bold, as I might have expected of other editors. I was reported for this while offline, and it was said of me and to me that "he knows that he will face heavy opposition if he attempts to massively edit large university articles. Well, this is one small college article that he will face steep opposition from if he attempts to massively change it again. User:Inquietudeofcharacter, I would highly suggest moving on to another random small college article. Pushing this won't be worth the hassle." I attempted to engage in dialogue upon my return, but was later told that "As I said before and given your past actions, since I am an established editor of this article and have poured in dozens of hours improving it (and since you just noticed it), I will do the edits myself, and we can discuss them here." I was also told to go away and work on other articles. My responses went largely ignored, until I was told that the edits weren't mine to make and that I'd intended to somehow get "widespread backing" with an "urgent plea" -- basically asking for help from an involved editor and over at UNI. I feel bullied here, being ignored and then told to go away by an editor who assumes bad faith and wants to make all the edits him/herself, and no one seems to be responding to my (not urgent, but what I think are valid) pleas for anyone else to comment on how I'm being treated. It's not quite a newcomer situation, but I don't want to start editing again if it's going to be inflammatory. --inquietudeofcharacter (talk) 03:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

First of all, the "BOLD" edits that User:Inquietudeofcharacter is referring to, consisted of deleting 90% of a large, established article that had several contributors collaborate on it over the course of 2 years, with minimal changes - in one day (he had never contributed to the article before), without one comment on the article's discussion page. Several neutral editors criticized his rash action and one of them restored the article prior to his large-scale edits. He has yet to address this behavior. I was one of several editors who spent hours researching, editing, and removing non-NPOV language from the article, so naturally, when someone deletes almost the entire article with absolutely no explanation on the discussion page, it's going to upset me a bit. I've never seen anyone do that on Misplaced Pages before. I stated that I was open to compromising with constructive, collaborative editing, and when he listed his suggestions, I went through the article and made the common-sense edits myself, along with additional edits he didn't mention. I told him that I would continue to work on the article over the next few weeks, but he seems to be set on restoring his mass edits immediately. So who is compromising more? Flavius Constantine (talk) 03:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

And I'm sorry if he took my frustration as "bullying." My responses certainly weren't meant to be threatening or intimidating.Flavius Constantine (talk) 04:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

While i started off as an outsider, i may be seen as being involved here because i began by reverting inquietudeofcharacter's large number of edits, based on a plea by Flavius at WP:ANI. I suggested that Inquietude had been bold, i reverted, and suggested discussion was the next stop. Flavius, while he has responded a couple of times, has done so in a manner that makes it very clear that Inquietude is not welcome, and that he, Flavius, will be deciding what edits to make and when to make them. I have mentioned these concerns to Flavius, but it appears that, while he has seen them he chooses to ignore them. Obviously, though i had never edited IWU previously, i am no longer uninvolved, so i would like to see an uninvolved editor make clear to Flavius a few facts about ownership, attitude, and general civility. Cheers, Lindsay 03:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

On 30 April inquietudeofcharacter made seven sequential edits of the article in question. See the diffs. As well as a little new text, this editing session involved substantial deletion. I understand Inquietudeofcharacter did not discuss his actions or his intentions on the article's discussion page.

There appears to be a lesson here for both Inquietudeofcharacter and Flavius Constantine. Firstly, Inquietudeofcharacter should now be aware that substantial edits, particularly deletions, without making use of the discussion page are likely to offend other Users and lead to all those substantial edits being reverted. Secondly, Flavius Constantine should now be aware that Misplaced Pages expects all Users to interact in a respectful and civil manner. That even includes vandals – see WP:Do not insult the vandals. Inquietudeofcharacter has clearly interpreted Flavius’s actions as bullying. A more appropriate way of dealing with Inquietudeofcharacter would probably have been to delete his eight edits and then leave a message on his Talk page, explaining why you deleted and how he can contribute more constructively to Misplaced Pages in the future. Dolphin (t) 04:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful comments Dolphin. To be honest, I didn't know how to restore the article prior to his edits - that's why I originally posted to the board for assistance (as can be seen in the board history). Flavius Constantine (talk) 04:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

User:LoreMariano

As background, she's a practitioner of Aesthetic Realism who is currently campaigning to keep the thing the organization is most noted for (its claim that Aesthetic Realism makes gay men straight, because all homosexuality arises from contempt of women) out of the lead of that article. I feel that her most recent edit summary violates WP:civility, and have said so on her talk page, but somehow I think she'll be more likely to believe it coming from someone who is not me. - Outerlimits (talk) 03:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the above comment. It is not civil to change the lead out of the blue when there is a talk page for discussion prior to making such major changes. What did you expect when you acted in such a manner? Nathan43 (talk) 03:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Filthy POV is incivil. Changing the lead is editing, and perfectly fine per WP:BRD. As far as the content, Outerlimits is discussing, LoreMariano is not Talk:Aesthetic_Realism#Restored_lede. Gerardw (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution