Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:38, 15 May 2010

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: Balkan / European This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present) European military history task force Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Yugoslavia High‑importance Yugoslav Wars is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Misplaced Pages coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.YugoslaviaWikipedia:WikiProject YugoslaviaTemplate:WikiProject YugoslaviaYugoslavia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Bosnia and Herzegovina High‑importance Yugoslav Wars is part of the WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Bosnia and Herzegovina on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Bosnia and HerzegovinaWikipedia:WikiProject Bosnia and HerzegovinaTemplate:WikiProject Bosnia and HerzegovinaBosnia and Herzegovina High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Croatia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Croatia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CroatiaWikipedia:WikiProject CroatiaTemplate:WikiProject CroatiaCroatia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Kosovo High‑importance Yugoslav Wars is part of WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Kosovo on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.KosovoWikipedia:WikiProject KosovoTemplate:WikiProject KosovoKosovo High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. North Macedonia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject North Macedonia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of North Macedonia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.North MacedoniaWikipedia:WikiProject North MacedoniaTemplate:WikiProject North MacedoniaNorth Macedonia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Montenegro High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Montenegro, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Montenegro on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MontenegroWikipedia:WikiProject MontenegroTemplate:WikiProject MontenegroMontenegro High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Serbia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Slovenia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Slovenia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Slovenia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SloveniaWikipedia:WikiProject SloveniaTemplate:WikiProject SloveniaSlovenia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Slovenia to-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks you can do (watch): Requests: , Protestant Reformation in the Slovene Lands (sl), Metlika black (sl) Wikify: Russia–Slovenia relations Unreferenced: Inner Carniola, Litostroj, Pavel Golia, Predjama Castle Cleanup: Edvard Ravnikar, Škofja Loka, Inex-Adria Aviopromet Flight 1308 Expand: Education in Slovenia Stubs: Ajdovi žganci, Čop Street, Radenska NPOV: Gregorij Rožman, Siddharta (band) Portal maintenance: Update News, Did you know, announcements, and suggest Selected article and picture Help assess the quality of 37 unassessed articles Take/Add requested photographs

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on December 14, 2004 and December 14, 2005.

rename

• (Move log); 11:48 . . Anthony Appleyard (talk · contribs) moved Yugoslav wars to Yugoslav Wars (asked)
• Asked? Who asked, where? --Joy (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
• At http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requested_moves&oldid=320570248#Uncontroversial_requests Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I was a participant in these various conflicts. I've often heard them called "The Balkan Wars." This is the first place I've seen them referred to as the "Yugoslav Wars." It doesn't mean this is incorrect but it should be put forward here for anyone doing research. Gingermint (talk) 22:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

.

Alas, I fear that the term Balkan Wars already lends its name to two wars fought between 1912 and 1913 in the region. These wars have been called The Third Balkan War but it has never really caught on. I'll be honest with you, this linkage of events on this article are very much a case of Original Research. Admittedly, DIREKTOR trimmed it by removing the wars concerning the Albanians from 1996 onward but there is still no connection between the Ten Day War fought between Slovene rebels and a rump JNA comprising units from Serbia and Montenegro only, and the war between Bosnian Croats and Muslims 1993 time. At the same time, the events are in some small way tied and so this article is in many ways necessary as it tells the story of an entire region forming a relatively small part of the world and its transitions over only a few years. Yugoslav Wars does suffice. Evlekis (talk) 22:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The three conflicts remaining are most certainly interconnected. The minor Ten-Day War is very much linked to the Croatian War of Independence that followed soon after. "Third Balkan War" is just silly. The wars in Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia have very little in common with the wars between Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, and Serbia ninety years earlier, taking place in a completely different geographical and historical setting. --DIREKTOR 23:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. The battles which took place in Slovenia and northern Croatia (eg. Slavonija) were most definitely wars fought on central European ground. That what was fought on the Balkan was on the fine edge of the Balkan and linked to that across the conventional line. Balkan War in any shape cannot identify the chapters of this article. Evlekis (talk) 10:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

SFRY & JNA?

I know Misplaced Pages encourages you to "Be Bold". But since this is a sensitive topic, I figured it would be better to ask first before editing:

• Should the SFRY and/or the JNA be added to Belligerents? The SFRY existed de jure until 1992 (although as a severely crippled state), and remnants of the JNA fought in the Ten-Day War and early stages of Croatian War of Independence. Was their involvement too small to warrant a mention on the main article and should only be listed in the individual articles, or should they be mentioned here as well? Any thoughts? Ding Chavez (talk) 13:35, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Possibly the JNA, but I think its pretty much covered by FR Yugoslavia's entry. The infoboxes depict the last state of affairs, and the JNA is included in FR Yugoslavia... --DIREKTOR 14:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes just be aware that the JNA involvement in Slovenia (and needless to say early stages in Croatia) did by this time only comprise units from Serbia and Montenegro. Macedonia and Bosnia had long withdrawn their internal citizens from national military activity, as had Croatia and Slovenia (eg. military staff living on Croatian soil were recalled from Kosovo as early as 1990). The JNA dissolved in various stages. Evlekis (talk) 18:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Which wars were part of breakup?

Since dissolution of Yugoslavia is breakup of its constitutional Republics, only conflicts up to Dayton agreement can be considered as part of it.

After Dayton all ex-Yu republics became a new nations.

Conflicts in Macedonia and Kosovo are of different nature, and they are inside new Republics, so no longer apply to breakup of Yugoslavia (their goal is not relared to Yugoslavia in any way)

e.g. Conflict in Kosovo is a result of different series of events as explained here, that are much longlasting then Yugoslavia

http://en.wikipedia.org/Serbian%E2%80%93Albanian_conflict —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.5.56 (talk) 23:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Everything is very complicated. The Southern Serbian conflict was directly a spin-off from the Kosovo war. The Kosovo problems were the first to emerge in the former SFRY. The incidents within Kosovo dated back to the beginning of the Yugoslav Wars but then resurfaced after the Dayton accords. Either way, with the existence of a Yugoslav entity (FRY) with Belgrade as its capital, the two wars (in Serbia) involving ethnic Albanians are probably best billed as Yugoslav Wars. The stumbling block is Macedonia. Here, a government recognised for over nine years previously, had found itself at war with internal rebels representing a significant minority in the country. So whilst there was no conflict between Macedonia and the Belgrade authorities, the Macedonian security forces were at war with a faction which had links to both Southern Serbia and Kosovo conflicts. In 2002, after the war ended in Macedonia, there was an emergency period in Greece with Greek security forces on stand-by amid reports of clashes in the Epirus region. This did not take off, but there could very possibly one day be a conflict between Albanians and Greeks in Greece itself. It would be part of the same Albanian project as that in former Yugloslav regions, but can never be a Yugoslav War. This is a sticky point and it is a tall order predicting where to draw the line. Evlekis (talk) 12:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I also think the Kosovo War and the Macedonian/Albanian conflicts should not be listed as "Yugoslav Wars". What have they to do with SFR Yugoslavia? (conflicts and political unrest in Kosovo may have played a part in causing the other wars, but this is very removed from the Kosovo War.) --DIREKTOR 12:50, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

My very point. If we don't demarcate this chapter in history, it could potentially spread to Greek government vs ethnic Albanians and then to Cypriot Greeks vs Turks and so on until the whole world is affected. Evlekis (talk) 13:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I don't know about that. There is no particular need to invent categories to sort Kosovo War, Southern Serbia conflict, Macedonia conflict. What is clear, however, is that they have little or nothing to do with the country that fell apart a decade before they took place. --DIREKTOR 16:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Intro lede

Can users please stop reverting the intro lede. We need to be honest and not play this article like Kosova in the hands of the Serb nationalists. You can't deny that the Yugoslav Wars started out and were characterized by Milosevic's attempt to create Greater Serbia. Take that out, you could still have had Yugoslavia today. Crackajack Mac (talk) 21:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

↑↑↑ Human rights I can´t remember what, sockpuppet.↑↑↑ FkpCascais (talk) 21:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Crackajack Mac has been blocked indef. as a sock of highly WP:DE user Human Rights Believer --Tadija (talk) 12:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Kosovo War, part of Yugoslav Wars (or not)

This article proves that Kosovo War was part of Yugoslav Wars. kedadial 18:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I do agree with Kedadi on this issue. The Kosovo crisis (precedent of the war) started during the SFR Yugoslavia period, the same crisis was re-birth again, just after the Dayton agreements (it was never "dead", just overshadowed by conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia), the main actors were mainly the same as from the Yugoslav period (Milosevic, Rugova, and even UÇK´s many members were active long time before the 90s...), and the conflict involved a country called "Yugoslavia" (even if a different one, FRy). Also, the conflict affected directly other ex-Yugoslav countries in the region and many were used as bases or logistics support for NATO, as Macedonia, Bosnia and Croatia (beside Albania), or Montenegro, as part of the FRY. I also support the inclusion of the internal Macedonian-Albanian conflict, and the separation from other regional conflicts can be donne by the fact that all this conflicts begin during, or just after the break up of the SFRY, and are located inside the territory of the same former Yugoslavia, while other related (or not that much) conflicts didn´t. Of course, this is just an opinion... FkpCascais (talk) 20:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, from NATO perspective, their operations begin during 1995 in Bosnia (intelligence, much earlier), and the Kosovo conflict was just an intensified continuation of it... FkpCascais (talk) 21:05, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Personal views and monologues aside, what needs to be established is the position of the professional community. We need to see what the majority of the published scholars have written: Yugoslav Wars (and synonymous terms) 1991-1995, or Yugoslav Wars (and synonymous terms) 1991-2001. I'm hoping for Wiki professionalism and impartiality, not a "contest". Lets all just list sources on this subject and write up a note on how does each approach the matter (yes, even if one doesn't like it). This is the only way to avoid the stupid forum-like discussions where people voice how they "feel" on the issue, as its a pretty abstract subject (plus, this way we'll avoid the obvious danger of this discussion getting clogged by utter nonsense). --DIREKTOR 01:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

It's the thin end of the wedge. The Kosovo problems date back not to the beginning the Yugoslav wars but to forgotten times buried in prehistory. Either way, if the Kosovo crisis counts as a Yugoslav War then so do does the Preševo Valley war, and even the Macedonian conflict sees some form of continuity for one of the belligerents. At the same time, there is no relation between the Macedonian conflict and the Ten Day War (with the minute exception that Macedonia was still part of the JNA when the Ten Day War happened). That said, even since the Macedonian conflcit ended, there have been a number of minor battles and military operations to restore control over parts or simply uproot anti-governmental activity. Like Israel's modern-day problems stemming from World War II (1939-45), the scenario is never ending unless we draw the line. I'm neutral here, but in favour of a concensus. User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 09:47, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

@direktor - You can´t really talk normally, do you? You can´t have one comment without your favourite words: "non-sence" and "stupid". Those words pretty much describe your interventions... Learn some education, or go kick some rocks in your village... Imb*bdcj!

@Evlekis, it´s really hard to talk without having this pseudo-direktor throwing insults and showing his complexes everywhere. I really dont care, I have other things to do. I´m out. FkpCascais (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

None of the above refers to you personally, speaking of "complexes", I made that clear by spacing my post away from yours as well as by indentation. I'm speaking out of previous experience from discussions elsewhere - you seem to lack some background on this issue.

To Evlekis et alii: I apologize if I'm only able to post sporadically on this subject. I'm much too busy lately (too many rocks to kick at the hospital, I'm afraid :). be careful though, people without a college degree don't seem to be welcome... --DIREKTOR 19:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Serbian-dominated congress voted down Slovenian proposals

from the lead: the Serbian-dominated congress voted down Slovenian proposals for an end to the one-party system and for economic reform. That is actually an opposite to what the source says. Must be reworked. --windyhead (talk) 19:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

That's actually true. How is it "opposite", what does the source say? --DIREKTOR 12:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't you rephrase it? Can we see the exact source you refer to for ways that we can correct it if need be? User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 13:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

have no good rephrase for this moment. The source is the paragraph reference itself - - The congress voted for an end to the one-party system --windyhead (talk) 13:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh you were referring to the abolition of the one-party system? Yes that part is indeed incorrect. I'll rephrase... --DIREKTOR 14:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Windyhead. I have for the moment restored the version revised by DIREKTOR for the following reasons: I believe you are discussing the BBC heap compiled by Kate Adie. I accept that she is not an academic source and that her writing was selective and not wholly reflective of Slobodan Milošević: meaning, she was pandering to the prejudice of the typical "BBC freak", that means the lover of BBC1, BBC News 24 and similar institutions (she presents Radio 4's From Our Own Correspondent and listeners of Radio 4 or BBC World Service are of a higher intellectual capacity and are not as malleable as readers of that page). The point is that she was potraying the Idi Amin-style Slobodan Milošević, the Augusto Pinochet-style Milošević, the person with all the BBC design specs that simple readers love to hate. She did this by ignoring all related aspects and by not acknowledging Milošević's circumstances or any of his colleagues or opponents or their activities. If a Wikipedian produced the same information, it would be instantly removed for its open bias. However, it has been written, and is available on the BBC website, and BBC information qualifies as "reliable" on Misplaced Pages and we don't have a choice but to accept it. It does say "Serb dominated" for whatever that is taken to mean. The other thing that you have to consider is, if BBC is not reliable, what is? They have contributed to anti-Croatian propaganda as well, especially when they were compiling their essays to discredit Ante Gotovina. But the only news sources where one would find an alternative picture is HTV (Croatian television), and as things are, BBC and similar networks have the upper hand on this website. User:Evlekis (Евлекис) 14:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What are your arguments about? It does say "Serb dominated" is false. --windyhead (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh ffs, it was indeed Serb-dominated since after the anti-bureaucratic Revolution Serbian party chief Slobodan Milošević controlled the majority of the votes. That is one of the most basic pieces of information, well known and undoubtedly correct. --DIREKTOR 17:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

If the source doesn't mention that, neither the wikipedia article should. --windyhead (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Its not a controversial point, its a basic fact, and it also follows from the text itself. Its not something to debate or dispute.

The congress was dominated by the League of Communists of Serbia, led by Milošević, who controlled the majority of the votes and blocked almost all proposals from the opposing two party branches - thus ruining the largest, militarily most potent, diplomatically most influential, and economically most significant country of the Balkans peninsula :). --DIREKTOR 22:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

No mention of Kosovo war

There is only one reference to the Kosovo War and it doesn't mention the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.110.175 (talk) 18:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Kosovo War 1998-1999 should be mentioned because it was a part of a wider process of the disintegration of Yugoslavia. Here are some sources that Kosovo War was part of Yugoslav Wars:

• The Yugoslav Wars: Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia 1992-2001, by Nigel Thomas, K. Mikulan, Darko Pavlović
• Collective memory of the Yugoslav wars (1992-1999), by Martin Yoanis Marinos
• Yugoslav Wars (including Ten-Day War, Croatian War of Independence, Bosnian War, Kosovo War)
• Ioannis Michelis, THE YUGOSLAV WARS – 10 YEARS AFTER (published 2009)
• The Serb Guerrilla Option and the Yugoslav Wars (This study focuses on Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo)

--Mladifilozof (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class military history articles
• C-Class Balkan military history articles
• Balkan military history task force articles
• C-Class European military history articles
• European military history task force articles
• C-Class Yugoslavia articles
• High-importance Yugoslavia articles
• WikiProject Yugoslavia articles
• C-Class Bosnia and Herzegovina articles
• High-importance Bosnia and Herzegovina articles
• All WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina pages
• C-Class Croatia articles
• High-importance Croatia articles
• All WikiProject Croatia pages
• C-Class Kosovo articles
• High-importance Kosovo articles
• WikiProject Kosovo articles
• C-Class North Macedonia articles
• High-importance North Macedonia articles
• WikiProject North Macedonia articles
• C-Class Montenegro articles
• High-importance Montenegro articles
• C-Class Serbia articles
• High-importance Serbia articles
• WikiProject Serbia articles
• C-Class Slovenia articles
• High-importance Slovenia articles
• All WikiProject Slovenia pages
• Selected anniversaries (December 2004)
• Selected anniversaries (December 2005)