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Massacre of Hormova

Massacre of Hormova (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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wp:or & lacks wp:verify Alexikoua (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC) The events described, aren't supported by a single wp:rs. The existing 3 'references' ]]], are based on articles of 2 newspapers and report (by whom?) of that period (1914-1915) and we don't even know if these newspapers and reports confirm this events because the context is missing on each. To sum up we have:

• snippet abuse.
• complete lack of secondaries&tertiary sources.
• clear wp:battle activity by the author,
• events that don't meet even wp:verify.

I'm sure that only some specific extreme povish pro-Albanian stuff like Jaqcues mention such events.Alexikoua (talk) 18:50, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't delete, I took the information from official reports of the house of commons, general de meer and the commission of control.--KëngaJonë 19:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You should read wp:rs, can you support this events or at least part of them with reliable material that meets wp:verify?Alexikoua (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Delete Classic POV, BATTLEground piece, not supported by any reliable sources whatsoever. Snippet abuse at its worst. Athenean (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep it is a real event, though non sourced properly by the author. E.g. this reference is left out, as well as others. I will try to rewritte it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: No wonder the events are confirmed 'only' by the Dutch officers of the Albanian gendarmerie ]. I'm sure nothing else ever confirmed this stuff until today.Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2010 (UTC)pro

I guess you are aware that only the Dutch gandarmarine was responsible about Albania during the reign of Princ William Weid. Either they, or the Greek Army would have confirmed that (I suppose you are waiting the second).Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Nope, it seems that this report wasn't believable by anyone else, apart from some officers fighting for the Albanian side: just a propaganda report by army/gendarmerie officers of the one side. Greek army or any other army report is irrelevant here, we just need wp:rs that confirm these events, not just saying that some officers saw attrocities in battle that can't be confirmed...Alexikoua (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. I can't believe author was given an award for this poorly sourced pov article. --Local hero 20:55, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Keep very notable event, but needs to be moved to Massacre of Kodra. Alexikoua, it seems that it has been reported by Austria, the USA, the Dutch army, the House of Commons of the United Kingdom and the International Commission of Control. Sources to verify WP:NN: --— ZjarriRrethues —  20:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

What's this? More snippet abuse? This is getting ridiculous. Athenean (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

More snippet abuse? There isn't much to abuse since the text needed to verify the notability of the subject is visible. Nonetheless even if these didn't exist Pearson's book brought by BW is more than enough to verify notability .--— ZjarriRrethues —  21:07, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: No context, no wp:verify, just as I've expected: a event completely non-existent by mainstream bibliography, without a single secondary&tertiary source confirming it. The Alpbanophile author Pearson doesn't confirm this event too, he is clear that this is claimed by the Dutch officers of the Albanian gendarmerie. Alexikoua (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

All these are secondary/tertiary sources, unless you consider even Pearson who published his book in 2006 a primary source. Even if these all were primary sources they would still be used to verify WP:NN which is the object of this discussion.--— ZjarriRrethues —  21:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Delete.This article does not live up to requisites.Megistias (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Having never heard of this incident, I looked up the London Times and New York Times to see what they said about it. Very little, very contradictory, and unsubstantiated, as it turns out.--Damac (talk) 23:17, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:44, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:44, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
• Keep: the criteria for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. Do we not consider the New York Times and London Times to be reliable sources? If someone wants to dispute the claims, then find a reliable source that does so. Notability is harder to justify, but I think the Newspapers are sufficient. Buddy431 (talk) 01:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
• Keep: Newspaper reports (no matter how conflicting) establish verifiability & notability (multiple independent sources with wide readership), especially large circulation papers in different countries. There are mentions in books. Something happened there on that date in such a way that it meets inclusion criteria factual details not withstanding. Advice to people arguing about facts: Just because you cant see them on google books doesnt mean they dont exist. Go to the library! Google books is a crutch for bad sourcing.--Savonneux (talk) 02:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Delete unless better sourcing from reputable modern secondary literature, i.e. academic historians, can be provided. What we have now is unaccounted-for google books snippets from contemporary newspapers, which appear to be presenting hearsay accounts only. Given the fact that falsified propaganda accounts of enemy atrocities were rampant in all war theatres during that time, we should not rely on such contemporary accounts unless they are filtered through responsible modern historiography. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

If it was a propagandist report it wouldn't be disseminated by all major factions. Apart from the official state reports, all major newspapers of the time have reported the event: the NY Times, London Times, The Independent.--— ZjarriRrethues —  08:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh Zjarri. please stop this obsessive misinformation campaign here too, there are 'no' official state reports, only some wrongly used snippets we don't even know what their context was. You have already been warned not disrupting any procesedure possible.Alexikoua (talk) 12:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

For the record when a text is published by the House of Commons and House of Lords and is titled The parliamentary debates (official report).: House of Lords it is an official state document containing reports and bringing sources is the opposite of disruption.--— ZjarriRrethues —  13:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

If you mean this ]. I have to disagree completely. We have an unknown report that is 'briefly read', typical snippet abuse case. By the way 'Massacre of Hormova' googlebooks hit is '1', and the book is written in 1919 by an active Albanian nationalist, that hardly meets wp:rs. Alexikoua (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Keep a notable event reported by reliables sources, such as New York Times and London Times. Cheers. kedadial 13:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I moved the article to Massacre of Kodra as most sources name the village Kodra not Hormova(alternative name). It seems that even Blackwood's Magazine had reported the massacre of Kodra or Hormova.--— ZjarriRrethues —  14:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Zjarri: Can you explain me why you blindly reverted all the tag: npov & 'budious' tags using wrong edit summaries and pretending that there'snt discussion on the way? ]]]Alexikoua (talk) 14:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua, I added all the sources needed to verify it so the citation needed/dubious tags should have been removed. If you dispute the neutrality of the article start a discussion and then add a tag. So far you're disputing the event itself and not even acknowledging its notability.--— ZjarriRrethues —  14:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It's really weird you claim that there isn't a discussion in the article's talkpage.Alexikoua (talk) 15:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Keep. I welcome FPS's suggestion to delete unless properly sourced. Now it is properly sourced, and we can keep the article. --Gollomboc (talk) 14:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

@Gollomboc: User:Sulmues welcome back.Alexikoua (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: According to new information provided by User:Damac talk:Massacre of Kodra #UK parliament. The so-called 'official report' was nothing more than a statement by a confirmed Albanian nationalist sympathiser. To sum up apart from some specific Albanian nationlist figures & Dutch officers of the Albanian gendarmerie this seems to be unconfirmed.Alexikoua (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: The official report is that of lieutenant-general De Weer, head of the Dutch mission in Albania. You are confusing Herbert with de Weer. The report was filed by the lieutenent-general. The speech was held by Herbert in the House of Commons and, according to Robert Elsie (that you Greeks love), "Western public opinion had had enough of Balkan atrocities and there was little reaction". . None of the two people were Albanians, so you can't call them "Albanian nationalist figures" because they weren't even Albanian. In addition, Herbert had photos on him when he was presenting the case, available upon request. He added that there were many massacres in other villages and that they were common knowledge. He mentions similar massacres in many villages, so that wasn't even an isolated fact but the tip of the iceberg. --Gollomboc (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Off course I'm not comfusing him. According to the link you gave it is clear that De Waal, commanded units of the Albanian gendarmerie, actually he participated in the fights: "De Waal himself tried to storm Gjirokastra on 12 May with the help of a volunteer corps under Sali Butka (1857-1938), but was cut off by Greek troops under General Papoulias." I've asked for at least one desent secondary or tertiary source, but it seems clear that there is hardly to find something on this.Alexikoua (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yep, So far all we have unsubstantiated reports from primary sources. Athenean (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Nope, we have very good reliable sources. According to this, pages 11-12, it's widely described in Tajar Zavalani's book "History of Albania" published in 1998. @Alexikoua, de Weer witnessed the massacre first hand and according to Noli he should have done it along with a representative of the Zographos government as had been agreed between Zographos' govt and the International Commission here in p206. However Zographos did not keep to that committment. --Gollomboc (talk) 19:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

"This" is some self-published essay, and Tajar Who? Also, English language sources, please. Athenean (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Gollo/Sulmues: Please provide at least one clear wp:rs material, this nationalist Vatra stuff is far from being considered rs.Alexikoua (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It isn't my fault why Zavalani hasn't been scanned in google books. This is all I can provide. The Greek Army committed genocide against the Albanian population after having lost the war against Prince Wied Albanian and Dutch forces. What else can I say. Selam Musai was injured in Hormove and after the Albanians lost the Hormove battle, a genocide was committed on the Muslim Albanian population. It was a religious genocide. And why should I provide all the sources btw? Why don't you Greeks bring your Greek sources and tell us why the Greek Army was defeated in Albania? --Gollomboc (talk) 20:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The book is offline. What do you mean? I would apprecitate if you avoid this highly nationalist declerations. Alexikoua (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I know it is offline. Not everything can be found in google books, but Zavalani is a secondary source. And reliable as he is distant from the events. The first edition of his "History of Albania" was published in the 1960s. What I mean: These massacres in Hormove, Lekel, and many Kolonje villages were typical of the andartis' soldiers who as soon as they would realize that they would not win the battle, they would commit atrocities. Why don't you start an article on the "andartis" forces to explain who they really were? Or do I have to do it? Kengajone opened this article and he is not prepared well to substantiate it, but this article is improperly in AfD today. These articles have to be started and written by seasoned wikipedians, as they are extremely controversial. However bringing them to AfD is another way of edit-warring them. I am sure that there are sources in Greek about this. I would be surprized if there weren't. Why don't you bring your own sources and we compare notes? Are you suggesting that there is nothing said in Greek history about paramilitary forces? --Gollomboc (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean (there are neither in English nor in Greek as far I know), the article is a combination of wp:or, wp:battle, excessive snippet abuse, as I've explained. Thanks to User:Damac Talk:Massacre_of_Hormova we learned that the snippets that were supposed to confirm this 'massacre' are just propaganda reports by nationalist elements. I kindly ask you to respect this proccess.21:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I asked you if you have ever HEARD of the "andartis" para-militaries. Can you please tell me what you know about them? Are you telling me that there is nothing in the Greek history about the "andartis" troops who terrorized the whole southern Albania in 1913-1914? Are you telling me that this is all made up? That the andartis don't exist? That they have never gone into a war? What are you telling me? I am respecting this process and in my opinion the sources are sufficient. User:Damac just digged the dialogue in the House of Commmons between the Foreign Secretary and an MP. He said that the MP was interested to the throne of Albania, but he never accepted it. The fact that he was fond of Albania means nothing as to how reliable he was. He was a British MP and a very respected one and to me his bringing the issue to the House of Commons was a very important political factor. The Great Britain parliament had a lot of issues in 1914 to waist time on the Greek andartis who would go to Albania to commit their holy war after the Greek government was told several times to retire from Albania. In relation to the WP:Battle mentality that you claim the author of the article has: Everything that Kengajone claims in the article is well supported. Actually the sources go even further to describe atrocities. I really think we should reword many of the pieces of the article, and please feel free to do so, I have witnessed that you have good talent at that, but let's not say that we have no sources, because we do. --Gollomboc (talk) 21:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Plaese, calm down and avoid irrelevant questions.Alexikoua (talk) 21:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - needs some clean-up, but well sourced and meets WP:N. Claritas (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per Fut.Perf. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Newspaper Archive, book published by McFarland, book published by IB Tauris, US Congressional record some sort of interview with Albanian politician. AFD is for coverage, to debate reliability go to Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard--Savonneux (talk) 21:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The first book is by Edwin Jacques, a known pro-Albanian charlatan. The other two sources speak of allegations by Albanians. This is something that is alleged to have occured almost a hundred years ago, and all we have are reports in newspapers about allegations by Albanians. There is no proof in scholarly historical sources anywhere that this occured. Plenty has been written about WW I in the Balkans, yet no historian worth his salt has confirmed this atrocity. Massacres may be notable. Unsubstantiated allegations of massacres are not. Athenean (talk) 22:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The House of Lords, the International Commission of Control, the Dutch reports, the Austrian and American reports, Pearson, Blackwood's Magazine etc. aren't Albanian.--— ZjarriRrethues —  22:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

And they all speak of nothing but allegations. A confirmation of this event simply does not exist in the historical literature. Athenean (talk) 22:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

@Zjarri: I'd kindly asked you to avoid this campaign of misinformation and to apologize about the excessive snippet abuse ], about the so called 'official report', this was nothing more than claims by a nationalist sympathizer, as Danac informed you Talk:Massacre_of_Hormova. Alexikoua (talk) 22:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Allegations are notable if they are verifiable and widely disseminated. We don't evaluate truth WP:V first sentence: The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth Also the term "snippet abuse" that you keep using as if referring to some sort of policy does not exist in any guideline that I can find and using it in such is misrepresentative of current guidelines.--Savonneux (talk) 00:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

• Keep because the sources are good and serious. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 23:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

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