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Archives

Archive 1 (Dec 2002–Feb 2006) Archive 2 (February–August 2006) Archive 3 (Aug 2006–June 2008) Archive 4 (June 2008–March 2009) Archive 5 (March–October 2009)

References

Good article in a month or so?

Moving some comments from above: lately we've had a nice influx of editorial skill and enthusiasm, and with a little bit of cooperation and AGF-ing, we just might be able to get this to good article status fairly soon, with featured not too far off. My motivation for this had waned, but I think we've now got a good group and can make it happen, if we want, and that would be a lot more rewarding than turning this into a battleground -- which I think the large majority of editors here are smart enough not to want to do. regards, Middle 8 (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah it only appears so from the outside. I don't think the article has gotten any better in the past while. Some useful information has been added, but a lot has also been removed or misparaphrased to oblivion. Now we have ToRT in several sections of the article criticizing anything pro-acupuncture- a book that doesn't contain footnotes (which was a reason cited for rejecting the use of Natural Standard), a book that I've read and noted that it selects the studies it talks about to prove its point. I've seen editors paraphrase 4 positive results from studies as "acupuncture being no better than sham acupuncture". I've seen editors slyly misparaphrase study results after deleting my direct quotations from the conclusions, calling direct quotations misleading. I've seen editors arguing against setting a standalone statement for a consensus statement just because it gives some credibility to acupuncture. I've seen editors calling the noting of publication dates for reviews as criticism (if noting publication dates itself is criticism, then why are those reviews sourced here in the first place?). I've seen outdated, negative studies remain on this page for seemingly years, and when I add new positive studies, there is suddenly a frenzy from a certain editor to find negative studies. I've seen editors remove 3 pro-acupuncture reviews because "only 1 is needed", and then proceed to post a negative study result and conclude that the results are mixed. I've had edits reverted and then been met with silence on the discussion page as well as their user talk pages. I've had an edit reverted with discuss on talk as the change summary only to have the editor not respond at all. I've had editors tell me it's "a big no no" to remove sourced information and then proceed to remove my sourced information from systematic reviews or consensus statements a few days later. I've had editors tell me that only the very newest reviews should be posted, and when I try to reinforce the same rule, I am told to stop. I've seen editors randomly bring up conspiracy theories about CAM saying doctors and the AMA looking out for their own income by protecting their profession from CAM (or oversupply even). Conspiracy theories promoted by Milton Friedman and other economists. I've posted on the RSN page to get someone to comment on another issue only to have an editor accuse me of being an IP sock instead of actually helping with the issue. I've used editor's assistance and then have them agree with me only to be subsequently told by an involved editor that editor's assistance is informal and useless (despite it being described as being useful for dispute resolution), whereas request for comment (a service with long response times apparently and ALSO described as informal) as being more useful. Now that I think about this, these past few weeks have been a gigantic waste of time trying to move mountains. A group of 3 editors seem to linger around here with their finger on the revert button with much higher restrictions on the posting of anything pro-acupuncture even if it's from systematic reviews or expert consensus statements (or weight less or misparaphrased), whereas anything anti-acupuncture, no matter how unreliable the source is kept and weighted more heavily. We have one editor here who actively does his best to misparaphrase anything pro-acupuncture to make it seem less important, while deleting direct quotations from review conclusions. Worst of all, I've been told these editors are extremely experienced and have made thousands of edits. That truly shakes my faith in Misplaced Pages. Anyway, tl;dr, I've lost the ability to AGF from wiki editors controlling this article. I will take my leave from contributing to Misplaced Pages now since my enthusiasm for this article and anything wiki-related to be dead. Feel free to gradually push this article into POV territory WLU, you won't be stopped by me and you certainly won't be stopped by the likes of Verbal, SH and Brangifer who are no doubt too busy and can only step in when someone adds anything sound pro-acupuncture. Good day. /rantJohnCBE (talk) 00:20, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I can understand why you feel that way. This page has several excellent examples of how NOT to treat newcomers -- instead of being treated in a welcoming and patient manner, you were berated and baited. Not real great. There are things you need to learn too, like picking your battles and being briefer in your comments, but those who violated WP:BITE and WP:TPG with you should have known better. But there is a subculture within WP that takes things like Quackwatch and ToT as gospel that doesn't require attribution, and believes that WP:CIVIL is less important than keeping away editors they believe are pushing "pseudoscience". WP really is a joke in many ways, and I sometimes wonder if it's worth the effort. At the very least, you should take a nice break and clear your head. Maybe I should walk away too, and let people who don't understand TCM fuck the article up into a total joke. But if you return, I'll work with you and other reasonable editors, because the page needs editors who understand TCM from the inside. --Middle 8 (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

P.S. - I agree with you about the paraphrasing. It's a problem. I don't see what's wrong with quoting (e.g.) NIH's own words rather than rephrasing it; it's too easy for bias to creep in that way, intentionally or not. I also agree that there was no good reason to remove the systematic reviews you added. "Undue weight" is a bullshit excuse -- we should just list the best ones we have, not delete a couple positive ones because there's one that's negative. They all looked fine to me as MEDRS's. --Middle 8 (talk) 23:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

And, with some editors just doing fly-by reverts of anything other than the straight, boring skeptical take, it becomes pointless and frustrating to edit. I get your frustration and am not inclined to go it alone. --Middle 8 (talk) 23:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I did not read this blame piece. I prefer short, concise suggestions justified by references. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. True, I could've been briefer. Still, I think it's important to set up a strong argument, especially against editors who try to find any reason possible to revert your edit. No, I will not be returning, especially not to this article. It takes far too much time to get any change for this article... unless it denounces acupuncture. I mean, I had to use 2 methods of dispute resolution just to note the review dates of the AMA statement. It took almost a week for something that shouldn't really be controversial. I can't even imagine making more significant changes to this article. It would be nice to work with you and other reasonable editors, but the truth is there are no other reasonable editors working on this article. I honestly have not interacted with anyone else that had a speck of NPOV aside from the people who commented through dispute resolution and coincidentally agreed with my changes.

To WLU: Of course you read it. You just can't reply to it, because it simply highlights all the BS edits and reverts you made over the course of a few weeks. How the hell could anyone justify that kind of crap?JohnCBE (talk) 03:20, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

TCM stuff in article

Too bold, WLU -- not to diminish your other efforts, but since you apparently haven't read any TCM texts, you're over your head. Why not bring it up here and ask for others' input? I have Cheng (1987) from which most (not all) of the section is sourced. (Some material did need pruning but your edits went too far.) If this is going to turn into homeopathy where skeptics plunge on too boldly and editors who know the traditional aspects of the topic per se are treated poorly (e.g. Verbal's niggling revert of two sources), I don't see much reason to spend my time here. --Middle 8 (talk) 22:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

On reflection, I'm not going to revert and fix this. I'm going to leave it in its messed-up state so that it will be obvious to anyone with a shred of knowledge of TCM that it's been butchered. Have fun. --Middle 8 (talk) 23:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:PROVEIT I could have removed nearly the whole thing. Rather than blaming my good-faith efforts to make a wandering section short and concise, if you have the sources and knowledge to improve it, please do so. It cuts both ways, and that section has been tagged as unclear for almost a year. As far as I can tell, the "butchered" version is just fine. Please feel free to do so with reliable sources but I would suggest caution to not phrase it as "acupuncture/zang-fu/Blood/qi are..." These are unproven concepts believed by practitioners and should be clearly described as such. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course you think your edit to the TCM section is fine -- by your own acknowledgement, you (a) haven't read any books on TCM & acupuncture , and (b) you've already made up your mind about it anyway: it's pseudoscience ! Simple -- you're an instant expert now. I think this page needs as few editors as possible who are really TCM-literate, and as many as possible who not only don't know about, but actively deride the topic. And to keep it that way, a few drive by reverter's. That will bring the article more into line with Misplaced Pages's universally-recognized and respected high standards. I trust you to lead the way in this regard. Have fun educating the masses -- anyone can do it! --Middle 8 (talk) 08:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

If you can improve the page by providing sources that correct any errors in the current version, that's great. All the time spent on this talk page could easily have gone into finding references, integrating them into the page and making it more reliable and NPOV for our readers. The fighting over single words and lengthy talk page postings aren't helping - I can't argue with a reference but I'm not going to take anyone's word. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 13:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Introduction in the United States?

Presumably, Chinese immigrants brought a knowledge of acupuncture with them to the United States along with other aspects of Chinese medicine. If that introduction is documented, it would be interesting to record it here.

What's more likely to be documented, and what I'm personally more interested in, is the introduction of acupuncture to the Western medical profession in the United States. A tradition in my family says that Dr. M. E. Carrère of Charleston, South Carolina (1813-1879, M.D., U. Penn., 1837) was the first American physician to use acupuncture. I doubt that he was the first, but he definitely used it. See Atkinson, William Biddle, ed., The Physicians and Surgeons of the United States (Philadelphia 1878), p. 620, available on Google Books. Can anybody contribute a section on acupuncture's history in the US?

--Jdcrutch (talk) 02:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Pseudoscience?

Sometime in the last few months, an editor added category:pseudoscience to the article; I removed it for reasons that I hope were clear in my edit summary: per WP:PSCI and WP:RS#Academic_consensus, we need a proper source showing acupuncture is "generally considered pseudoscience" by the scientific community. Such a source would be on the order of a mainstream scientific academy, such as those found in List of scientific societies explicitly rejecting intelligent design and Scientific opinion on climate change. Lacking such a source, per WP:PSCI, acupuncture is an "alternative theoretical formulation" and/or "questionable science", and as such "should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific while a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists on this point" (emphasis mine). That means we shouldn't use the category, since inclusion in the category is a binary condition, ergo unambiguous. However, it's fine to cite reliable sources within the article who do consider it pseudoscience, just as it's fine to cite reliable sources who don't. --Middle 8 (talk) 01:30, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not quite there, though doubtless many would agree that it is. I support the removal. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per previous discussion, and scientific view of meridians and acupuncture is clear. Sham is as good as "real" (see refs in article). Verbal chat 16:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

@ Verbal: that reasoning is weak at best, and at worst wrong or simply absent. (1) Which previous discussion? Link to it so we all can see it. (2) Scientific view isn't clear at all: read the lead re "active research", "controversial" and lack of settled agreement over proper design of sham controls, as well as meta-analyses showing positive results for efficacy (I like how an earlier editor weasel-ishly changed negative results to "many", with two cites, and positive to "some", also with two equally good cites). (3) You haven't refuted or even addressed my reasoning above re NPOV (see: WP:PSCI) and VER (see: WP:RS#Academic_consensus). You've also got two editors disagreeing with your position. I'm reverting (and fixing the "many/some" silliness). Please take the time and effort to address 1-2-3 above specifically if you disagree. Also, your edit sloppily removed a good reference fix by WLU. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

What is needed is a high-quality reference that clearly labels it as pseudoscience. I don't think we're quite there yet. Acupuncture appears to be nonsense based on a flawed, medieval, probably alchemical understanding of the body, but it's not quite considered pseudoscience - even Edzard Ernst has stated that it's got merit with nausea and some types of pain. It obviously lacks any merit for treatment of conditions (rather than symptoms) but it's not quite pseudoscience. If an explicit reference can be found that's not one of the obvious skeptic sources (like the ones a google books search turns up at the top), maybe. I think it's arguable that it could be said "some have called it pseudoscience", I think it's theory is utter, utter nonsense, but I think this falls into the "questionable science" category at WP:PSCI. There is a reason to believe that jamming needles into the body does help with some symptoms (pain and nausea, and of course there's also dry needling), even if the reason why is not what is usually voiced, or not completely understood. It's pseudoscientific to claim that it treats any actual condition, but unlike homeopathy or astrology, it's still considered as to have some merit in a limited number of cases. Certainly there is merit to exploring claims of it being pseudoscientific, but ultimately it is now being investigated scientifically and there are secondary reviews indicating limited effectiveness for (again) pain and nausea. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

We need to distinguish between calling acupuncture as a whole pseudoscience (while still documenting that some do say that), and calling most of its (1) claims and its foundational ideas ((2) acupuncture points and (3) meridians) pseudoscientific. Those three can clearly be labelled and categorized as pseudoscience. The question of whether acupuncture works for some things is actually irrelevant. A parallel situation exists for chiropractic. We can't categorize chiropractic as a whole as pseudoscience, but we can categorize many of its (1) claims and its two foundational ideas ((2) vertebral subluxations and (3) Innate Intelligence), as well as its (4) Applied kinesiology diagnostic method, as pseudoscientific. These are all falsifiable beliefs being presented by professions as biological facts, and thus they are pseudoscientific. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:49, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I would agree to that, but would we then use the category "pseudoscience" or restrict it to the subpages that are clearly pseudoscientific? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

It would have to be the subpages, but the proper sci-consensus sources (cf. above) would still be needed. And remember, the map (TCM theory) isn't the territory (clinical efficacy), but it's still found useful in practice (e.g., distal points like P6 for nausea and LI4 for dental pain aren't predicted by biomedical knowledge, so the ancient Chinese apparently spotted something and explained it in their own terms, much as an ancient culture might predict eclipses correctly but explain them mythologically.) I don't get why more of the writers for scientific-skeptical publications don't grok this simple distinction. cheers, Middle 8 (talk) 22:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

(de-indent) I reverted Verbal's revert, which he attempted to justify solely by a bogus COI accusation in the edit summary. AS WP:COI says, "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest." Verbal didn't discuss his revert on the talk page or address any of the issues I raised just above. Verbal, please re-read WP:COI and WP:DR, and please stop engaging in the kind of careless behavior that has gotten certain other editors put on restricted editing. thanks, Middle 8 (talk) 22:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

All those "theoretical" aspects of acupuncture are pretty obvious pseudoscience. They wildly contradict medical and anatomical knowledge. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think we'll be able to get aspects of TCM theory into Category:Pseudoscience under the "obvious pseudoscience" rubric. TCM is far too well-known and has far too many followers, or people who at least use its ideas to guide their treatments (even if they don't take it literally), to be put in the same basket as "Time Cube" and the like. Even notable skeptics Beyerstein and Sampson note that some Chinese scientists see the concepts as clinically interesting or useful metaphors (scroll to "CSICOP on pseudoscience in China). "Obvious Pseudoscience" is a category for things that are in some way notable, but that scientists haven't bothered to comment on; see WP:Pseudoscience#Pseudoscience_2 and other findings in the ArbCom case on which parts of NPOV ((i.e., WP:PSCI) are based. TCM is almost certainly the best-known, most widely-practiced and widely-researched traditional indigenous medicine on the planet, and mainstream scientific bodies will not have missed a chance to weigh in on it. So, if we can't find the sources, it's because mainstream scientific bodies are not as eager as writers for scientific-skepticial publications and their audiences to dismiss aspects of TCM theory. The amount of research going on and the reticence of high-quality, sci-consensus-type sources to call qi, meridians, and the like "pseudoscience" shows that the scientific consensus simply isn't there yet. --Middle 8 (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Any proof for the existence of meridians, qi, acupuncture points? There's a lot of evidence that it doesn't matter where you jam the needles (or even if you use them) - sham acupuncture in the best designed trials works as well as "real". WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Perfectly good question (although I disagree that the issue of sham controls is settled), but not germaine to whether or not to use category:pseudoscience on these topics. If I were wanting to insert text in an article stating that there exists unambiguous proof for the physical existence of meridians and that each acupoint had specific activity, then your question would be relevant, and under WP:BURDEN I'd have to provide a good source supporting an affirmative answer. But that's not at issue. If you and/or Brangifer want to use category:pseudoscience on qi, meridians, etc., then you have the burden of proof, and need to show that these well-known topics are "generally considered pseudoscience" with a proper source per WP:PSCI and WP:RS#Academic_consensus. I'm not aware of any such source, and have yet to see anyone produce one. So, as things stand, these topics remain in the "grey area" of "questionable science". regards, Middle 8 (talk) 22:31, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

In the book The Body Electric, Dr. Robert O. Becker found evidence of meridians using a cookie cutter electrode. - Stillwaterising (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Personally, until the scientific community proves that this is actual science (which it has not), it should be considered psuedoscience, because it is based on ancient ideas more closely tied to philosophy than science, much like chiropracty. 72.199.100.223 (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

The first search result of my first search on Google term ("scientific evidence" acupuncture meridians) came up with this paper which negates this whole argument and demonstrates that this article is POV. I wish I had more time to work on this article because I have personally experienced over a hundred treatments through acupuncture from over 20 providers (mostly students), and while the results do vary depending on condition, diagnosis, skill, and technique, overall it has been quite effective. - Stillwaterising (talk) 15:50, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't see how one primary source paper contradicts the argument. Dogweather (talk) 11:16, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

"Pseudoscience is a broad system of theories or assertions about the natural world that claim or appear to be scientific, but that are not considered being so by the scientific community" (Category:Pseudoscience) It's pretty clear that (2) is the consensus view, but what about (1)? Do proponents of acupuncture assert that it's scientific? If so, then the category tag is justified. Dogweather (talk) 11:16, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The source I gave (Tsuei, Julia J. (May/June 1996). "Scientific Evidence In Support Of Acupuncture And Meridian Theory". IEEE, ENGINEERING IN MEDICINE AND BIOLOGY. 15 (3). Archived from the original on 2010-05-30. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1= and |2= (help)) is most certainly a secondary source (summary of primary/secondary sources). Look up WP:SECONDARY. Next, who/where/when claimed that accupunture is science? Acupuncture is a healing art that came from observation, trial and error, and intuition. Western medicine is no different. Both have been challenged, refuted, and improved by using the scientific method, however neither TCM nor western medicine can be considered scientific theories. When I think of psuedoscience, I think of phrenology, or melanin theory - not acupuncture. - Stillwaterising (talk) 16:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Your source is excellent support for tagging this article Category:Pseudoscience: It's evidence that acupuncture is accompanied by claims that appear to be scientific (satisfying element 1), against the consensus view of the scientific community (element 2). I'd like to find another similar sources: More articles written by proponents attempting to cast a scientific light. Then we'd have great support for the Category:Pseudoscience category. Maybe the recent Adenosine study is RS for this. Dogweather (talk) 03:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

urethral stricture

hi sir/ madam

i am the patient of this disease urethral stricture from about one year. i had operated last year in july but after 3 months of operation this problem is reoccured in me. and because of that now i'm unable to urinate easily. i go for a checkup n had everytime ultrasound n uroflow test n all that which is now a hectic for me. some one says me that in accupuntre there is a full chance of recovery of my problem is that true??? i don't want to operate once again because if i do this time they give me one rubber tube n after operating they teach me how to use that rubber tube in my penis and this i hve to do for may b whole life, me just 28yrs old and dont want this thing happen to me. i assure that i didn't hve any kind of sex with anyone but i do a lot masterbate earlier. i just want to know is my problem can solve by this treatment completely so i can live my future life fearlesslly. please do reply to me i'm waiting. please i don't want to operate agin in my life.

I am sorry, but Misplaced Pages does not offer medical advice. Please consult your physician, as he or she is likely to be much more qualified to answer this question than we random strangers on the internet.

The article currently contains no information regarding this condition. A quick scan of Google Scholar does not indicate that we necessarily should include anything, but if anyone turns up a solid reference, please include it or start a new section below. - 2/0 (cont.) 06:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Category:Manipulative therapy

I'm removing Category:Manipulative therapy because acupuncture does not involve any manipulation of the joints or other structures. Withing TCM, tui na (a TCM massage technique) however can involve manipulation and does belong in this category. - Stillwaterising (talk) 19:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

IIRC, the reasoning behind that categoriztion was that acupuncture claims to manipulate Qi, which is a bit different than what one traditionally thinks of with manipulative therapy! -- Brangifer (talk) 00:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Sham vs. Real section removed

I removed this section for WP:PRIMARY. I'm looking for a secondary source on the results of the trials using sham acupuncture as placebo, but haven't found one yet. When I find one, I'll restore this section. Dogweather (talk) 00:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, beautiful; it's already covered in the article with a proper secondary source: An analysis of 13 studies of pain treatment with acupuncture, published in January 2009 in the journal BMJ, concluded there was little difference in the effect of real, sham and no acupuncture. Dogweather (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Cleaning up "Issues in Study Design"

This section is way too long, and needs to be sourced. There are some great sources for the advent of and use of sham acupuncture. This section should skip right to "sham" after noting that there have been problems designing studies. The whole block quote from Inst. of Med. is unnecessary fluff. Dogweather (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess "fluff" is in the eye of the beholder; the IOM is arguably the best MEDRS on English Misplaced Pages, and their point about controls is directly germaine to study design here. regards, Middle 8 (talk) 05:03, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Sham vs. Real section redux

@BadgerDrink, I do believe there is OR going on in the section as you reverted it. I made an edit, and I think it's a good compromise: what do you think? I made the edit to make it clearer exactly what this article is reporting: that the two studies found similar results for the two types of treatment. I still think this is dangerously close to original research: we should *not* be analyzing or summarizing primary biomedical sources. We should instead use secondaries, such as literature reviews. Dogweather (talk) 09:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Need to Globalize

I added Template:Globalize. Edit Summary: Scientific views are mostly western while much of research is from Chinese and not translated to English. *under-represented* There is no prohibition on using Chinese language sourced refs, yet are not included.

I noticed that there was no mention of the Shanghai Research Center of Acupuncture and Meridian, which seems to be the main research institute for acupuncture in China. An English translated link is here. - Stillwaterising (talk) 17:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Adenosine

So the adenosine paper is, from what I can tell, a mouse model. For one thing, those results are suggestive, but not revolutionary, for humans. If we were treating mice, and adenosine was a known marker for something, we might have a finding. But this article is primarily about humans. Second, that is a primary source article, making it inappropriate for this page per WP:MEDRS.

I also note that the study is being pimped by the media as "amazing" and "conclusively proving acupuncture works". Not even close, and even if valid in humans, only "works" if you define acupuncture very differently from what TCM does - making it closer to dry needling. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Primary source, animal model, nothing to do with TCM, wildly overhyped be the lay press ... yeah, that sounds about right. We might could add this to the gate control section or something like that, but even then MEDRS stipulates that we should be very cautious. - 2/0 (cont.) 09:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Good analysis. I agree. Dogweather (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Who Wrote That? (or, Proper Attribution of WHO Review)

Several months ago there were some edits concerning Acupuncture: Review and Analysis of Reports on Controlled Clinical Trials (2003, WHO). The edits were apparently based on a couple of faulty assumptions:

• (1) that the review was authored by one individual: false; it is attributed to the WHO itself according to ISBN data, and the WHO itself is speaking in the Acknowledgements. The confusion may have arisen because the introduction is signed by one Dr. Xiaorui Zhang;
• and (2), that the review was not vetted by the WHO or somehow did not represent the WHO's considered views. This misunderstanding may have arisen from this disclaimer: "The World Health Organization does not warrant that the information contained in this publication is complete and correct and shall not be liable for any damages incurred as a result of its use." In fact, those words (or an approximation of them) are used on virtually every one of the WHO's publications on that website! This disclaimer appears to be of the standard, legal variety, and given its ubiquity it cannot reasonably be taken as any sort of disavowal of content by the WHO (beyond the simple fact that scientific knowledge changes over time).

Once we acknowledge and fix the attribution of the WHO review, the balance of WP:WEIGHT shifts considerably, since the WHO carries a great deal more weight than the individual scientists who are critical of it. Those objections should certainly be mentioned , but as the article stands it gives the impression that the objections carry more weight than the review itself, which would be OK if we were talking about "Acupuncturist claims in a report published by the World Health Organization" (LOL! - that subheader is classic Misplaced Pages), but not when we're talking about "World Health Organization Review" (as it was originally & correctly cited). Even if the critics' opinions are closer to the truth than the WHO's, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOTTRUTH prevail. I'll be fixing the factual content and the weight issues soon. Please let me know your thoughts and particularly whether I've made any factual errors here. best regards, Middle 8 (talk) 06:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Your point (1) is demonstrably false. The report itself states who wrote it: "Dr Zhu-Fan Xie, Honorary Director of the Institute of Integrated Medicines, First Hospital of Beijing Medical University, China, who drafted, revised and updated this report. Further, Dr Xie made numerous Chinese language documents available in English. We also thank Dr Hongguang Dong, Geneva University Hospital, Switzerland for providing additional information." These are both acupuncurists. There was no input from recognized authorities who were not acupuncturists. Every single neutral and independent source has criticized WHO for putting out this report without consulting the vast literature disputing it. We have the sources here and they are WP:FRINGE#Independent sources. The disclaimer you cite in point (2) means we absolutely CANNOT attribute this draft of acupuncturist lunacy to anyone but the acupuncturists who drafted it. The WHO explicitly denies that the information is correct! That's different from every other medical source (see WP:MEDRS). Do not change it. You have a conflict of interest in the matter. Changing it will result in a filing of a direct complaint per the arbitration case that this case is under and may result in your censure. ScienceApologist (talk) 07:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with ScienceApologist and the article text is fine (with a little cleanup). However, the heading for that section is absolute tofu. Can we change it to something snappier, like World Health Organisation review 2003? Famousdog (talk) 10:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I also fully agree with SA. Verbal chat 11:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

You know what? I agree with Middle 8. I think the lead's use of that study and the frontloading with "an acupuncturist" is both unnecessary and prejudicial. In fact, I'm actually inclined to simply remove it from the lead totally and fold in whatever information that's actually carried in that back-and-forth of "WHO acupuncturist produced, everyone else hated on" into one of the generic "it's controversial" statements. In that badly-titled section, however, I think there's much that could be done. First, it is a WHO report, even if written by an acupuncturist. You wouldn't frontload a review article with "An allopathic/western/white/pharma shill doctor wrote the WHO report on vaccination", and I don't think it's important here. I think it is however, important to state "The WHO produced a report. It was criticized by many people. Edzard Ernst stated that the report was substantially written by a single acupuncturist..." In other words, flatly state that it's a WHO report and carries their imprimatur. Immediately follow that up with all the criticisms of the report, in reasonable detail - summarize why the researchers didn't like it. That's far more valuable to the reader than simply throwing in a weaselly "An acupuncturist wrote it (and therefore you can't trust it)". This is the WHO. They are big. But since the WHO report was not a slam dunk, and was in fact heavily criticized, I don't think it deserves a place in the lead. I also think it should be dealt with body better. You can see where I did this last September with the WHO study via Trick or Treatment. This actually helps the reader by providing the scholarly criticisms for why the report is not trusted rather than simply stapling an implied ad hominem to a poor choice of sentence. We're much better off using the secondary sources available to expand the article than we are trying to point out the flaws in the WHO document, essentialy using it as a primary source for its own shortcomings.

Oh, and Quackguru's collapse of that lengthy bulleted list into a paragraph was a good start, but I think we'd be better off simply stating which conditions it was best proven useful with, and leaving a vague "as well as other conditions" for everything else. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 13:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The claim of WHO-imprimatur strike me as inappropriate because the WHO has this bizarre disclaimer prominently on the site that links to the report. This standard boilerplate is far different from those contained in, say, Lancet, BMJ, NEJM, JAMA, etc. Claiming that it is WHO-supported strikes me as problematic since the WHO washed its hands from assuming any factual basis for the report. I'm not aware of any other medical source going to such lengths to specifically deny that what they published was factual or not. In fact, it makes a very good case that the report should be carefully vetted and claims from it probably shouldn't be included here because they fail the test of verifiability which is the Misplaced Pages-standard-bearer. It is important to mention that the report was written by acupuncturists without any input from skeptics. That is acknowledged by independent sources and the WHO report itself and shouldn't be hidden behind some massive organizational authorship (which is incorrect in any case). ScienceApologist (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Undent. I wouldn't necessarily say "supported", but "published" is certainly accurate. It is certainly verifiable that the WHO published the report, and it's hosted on its website. Also verifiable - that many had issue with the report. Think of how much more powerful an explicit discussion of this would be for all these points, versus an interpreted insinuation that skirts the line of appropriateness for wikipedia. Since we have a source for these points, why bother with the leading "acupuncturist" at all, when Ernst and others clearly state not only that this is problematic, but why. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

That the WHO published it is certainly correct. However, I think that the fact that they published it with the boilerplate makes it very questionable from the perspective of WP:V. What does it say, exactly? Are there many acupuncturists who are using it? Granted that Ernst's critique of the report is valuable, but his impeachment of it seems to indicate, to me at least, that the report isn't really all that useful for us as a reliable source. I guess what I'm saying is, I think a good case can be made for removing the report in almost its entirety and certainly at least from the lead. Does it deserve its own section as we currently have it? I'd wager to say, "no." ScienceApologist (talk) 02:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The present wording is puerile. Ad hominem, yes, but more importantly, unconvincing. I completely endorse WLU's points. The WHO report needs to be addressed by this article, but addressed effectively. I would very much like to see a proposed rewording from WLU. Anthony (talk) 04:25, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Dry needling

Dry needling looks very much like acupuncture sans magic. Right now it appears twice - once in the body and once in the {{acupuncture}} template. Anyone know anything about dry needling? Has this been developed at all since 1979? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:03, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Two reasons why Acupuncture should be marked Category:Pseudoscience

Hi everyone. I'm re-starting the conversation, because I think we were a little off track the last time.

Reason #1: Category:Pseudoscience's first sentence defines a pseudoscience as "a broad system of theories or assertions about the natural world that claim or appear to be scientific, but that are not considered being so by the scientific community." The plain text of this policy gives us a simple test for inclusion: that (1) proponents make scientific-appearing claims which (2) are not considered so by the scientific community. There are ample RS's that support these two requirements for Acupuncture and therefore it should be tagged pseudoscience.

Reason #2: Acupuncture is Category:Energy therapies. And Category:Energy therapies is Category:Pseudoscience (See its "main article" Energy_medicine). Therefore, Acupuncture is Category:Pseudoscience.

Dogweather (talk) 03:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

One thing we've never decided is which umbrella categories are adequate for declaring pseudoscience. For example, a wide-range of articles in Category:Paranormal are clearly pseudoscience, but the argument was made that since they are in the paranormal category they don't also need to be placed in the pseudoscience category. I would, however, like to see a pseudoscience infobox placed here (in the relevant section). ScienceApologist (talk) 04:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Reason #1 for not labeling it "pseudoscience". It will alienate many open-minded readers who (rightly) see the term as purely derogatory and the judgment of a few pompous, up-themselves Wikilosers. I think acupuncture is dangerous (in that it distracts people from effective treatment) hokum. Your hamfisted and unconvincing rhetoric, ScienceWatcher and Dogweather, is harming this article. Anthony (talk) 05:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

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