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Archive 1: January 2005-January 2007

"Legally insane"

"Legal insanity" is a state decided only by a jury in a court case. Unless Farmer was on trial for battering her mother and found guilty by insanity and then sentenced to the Western State sanitarium--or something of the like--I believe this to be an inappropriate citation and the entire phrase should be removed. 208.96.208.138 19:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Smells Like Teen Spirit

I think the claim that Frances Farmer is mentioned in the first verse of Smells Like Teen Spirit needs to be further substantiated. It's not mentioned once in the Wiki page for the song, nor can I immediately find reference to it on the internet.

It would be very interesting if it is true, I just don't think the evidence is clear on this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eastmav (talk • contribs) 01:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Tone of article

This piece has a breathless, fan mag tone. Maybe fewer details of the "spiral down" would help.--Parkwells 20:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

"Posthumous acclaim" section is all about Cobain. Delete it as not related.--Parkwells 21:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Revisions

I got totally confused in the middle of a revision, trying to move the "Sensational Accounts" down to the end, instead of having it all in the middle of her life. I have to take a break before trying to work on it again, and apologize for deleting some text about "Shadowland". --Parkwells 21:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm finding a lot of your revisions to be frankly more confusing than what was there originally. I think the Trivia section needs to be re-instated and those comments moved back there--the way you've re-done it makes the article very disjointed and non-chronological. I also think we need to revisit the references--per the comment below, I think it's obvious that at least "Shedding Light on Shadowland" was used extensively as a reference, not just for the noted items, and it looks like the "History Link" was, too. It's fine to have them in both sections--there's certainly nothing in Wikipolicy stating otherwise. Just my 2 cents--don't have time to address any of this today, but I may come back later and attempt to get this back into some meaningful shape. 96.225.199.176 (talk) 18:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

References

The website "Shedding Light on Shadowland" has no sources. The article really needs some more substantial citations.--Parkwells 18:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The sources are mentioned throughout the Shedding Light essay. I agree about the article, but I don't understand this comment. AndroidCat 22:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I posted to Parkwells' Talk page--I completely agree. "Shedding Light" is exhaustively sourced--there's virtually not a paragraph/statement in there that doesn't refer to verifiable source material. I also think it's a bit disingenous to remove it as a reference, where it's been for some time (at least since I first read this article), when it's used so extensively as source material itself in this article. 75.164.223.219 23:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Added all requested citations

I have gone through and systemically added references/citations, not only where they were requested, but also throughout the article where information was obviously gleaned from various sources. We need to do a thorough review of the History Link article and cite its contributions to this article. 96.225.199.176 (talk) 04:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Celebrity tidbit

The well known french singer/entertainer Mylene Farmer took her legal name after Frances Farmer.

71.245.158.31 (talk) 20:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Hollywood Babylon

Hollywood Babylon has more details about Farmer, particularly her behaviour in court. I don't have a copy anymore, but perhaps someone who does could add the details (.... when asked if she drank, she responded something along the lines of "yeah I have a little vodka in my milk, what do you want me to do, die of thirst?" and listed her profession as "cocksucker".) Hairhorn (talk) 01:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Hollywood Babylon is a notoriously unreliable source and I can't imagine that it would come anywhere near passing standards for reliable sources. That's something akin to saying "National Enquirer" insists it's the truth. Not gonna happen. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Booooo... that book has its moments, good and bad. I'd bet there's another source for the Frances Farmer material, but it's probably buried in an archives somewhere. Hairhorn (talk) 04:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

As do all gossip rags. Most of the juiciest stuff has been proven untrue. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:09, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The quote was actually about her having benzedrine in her orange juice ("What do you want me to do, starve to death?") and in fact is one of the few things Anger actually culled from contemporary newspaper articles (which I assume would be deemed reliable sources). The "profession" she alluded to was not as vulgar as described (and repeated in the notoriously fictionalized film), but the more prosaic "prostitute," again as reported in many contemporary news accounts. I don't know how to properly reference things, but I'm happy to provide actual day/date and name of newspapers where these were published in January 1943. 75.164.206.100 (talk) 19:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Except this is not a gossip tabloid and I can't imagine how that could be worked in without being sensationalistic and unencyclopedic in nature. Wildhartlivie (talk) 20:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Why

Curious as to why this talk page and the main article are suddenly missing more than a month of revision material. At least the revisions are showing on the talk page history, but the article revisions are gone from the history. 75.164.206.100 (talk) 23:43, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not. This just isn't that highly trafficked as a page that is edited. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it is. For example, the whole "Hollywood Babylon" section had disappeared on the Talk page itself (without anyone reverting/removing it) and the last Talk page edit showed as the one before that, until I "re-added" it by making the edit including the "Why" section from the last diffs on the talk page history (sorry if I'm not being clear). If you go the article history, you'll see that all of the edits subsequent to mid-February (including some of your own reverts of vandalism, IIRC) have strangely disappeared. Just curious--it's no big deal, I've just never seen anything like this happen before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.206.100 (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

And just like that, they're back. :) Truly strange, unless someone is Gaslighting me.  :) 75.164.206.100 (talk) 20:34, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

No clue. Sometimes as a matter of housekeeping, administrators move articles and return them, but I have no idea of the overall rationale. Sometimes it is because someone has added certain content, for example, personal contact information of other editors or subjects, or content that could conceivably be libellous. Maybe that has something to do with it. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I actually suspect an Admin playing with their tools hit a wrong button and my pesky questioning alerted them to their error, LOL.  :) 75.164.206.100 (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Caption

That photo is actually a Universal publicity photo from the 1941 feature Badlands of Dakota, so "late 1930's" is incorrect. However, Farmer was indeed labeled as one of the "Paramount Pretties," which was a catch all phrase Paramount used in those days for such stars as Dorothy Lamour, Veronica Lake and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.206.100 (talk) 23:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC) 75.164.206.100 (talk) 23:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

That would require a reference to support it. And simply adding in "a Paramount Pretty" skirts the title of peacockry if it isn't covered in the article and properly sourced. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

"Paramount Pretty" is the caption for a different studio promo photo used in Hollywood Babylon, which I notice has also been discussed in a previous section, so I guess we're all familiar with Hollywood Babylon. But, obviously, we're not Hollywood Babylon so we can avoid the peacockry. Rossrs (talk) 08:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It wouldn't be peacock if the caption carried something like "...called a Paramount Pretty by the studio..." and the photo was verifiably from the time when they did that. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that attribution would reduce the "peacockry", and I believe that the term was most likely used by Paramount's publicists, but I still do not think it would be appropriate here. The image is in the infobox where the main purpose is to show what Farmer looked like, and without accompanying text any descriptive caption would be without context. I'd consider it differently if the image was used in the article body where text could support a description. She's been called "beautiful", "tragic", "doomed", "talented", "unconventional", "modern", and I think one of her co-stars fondly recalled her as "a pain in the ...." These can all be attributed and reliably sourced but picking one of many available descriptions to the exclusion of others, I see as unnecessarily introducing POV in an area where it can be easily avoided. My earlier comment was a little sarcastic, and I regret the tone of it, but I think magazines, for example, do a good job of finding key words to attract the eye of the reader, and that we needn't follow their lead. Hollywood Babylon uses the "Paramount Pretty" moniker to heighten the tragedy of her situation and that's fine for that type of publication. I don't think it's so much a question of attribution or even reliable sourcing, but of relevance and of maintaining a simple format. Rossrs (talk) 12:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I think attribution and context would tamp out any worries about "Babylonization" of the article, an encyclopedia likely should let readers know what Paramount called her in their own house-brand marketing terms, so long as readers are made aware that's what they were, product branding. Btw the phrase Paramount pretties is awful, low end, tacky 1930s tabloid trash-talk, it was then and it is now. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:51, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, this particular photo is a Universal photo, not a Paramount photo, is from 1941, and from her one Universal film, Badlands of Dakota, so Paramount Pretty would not be appropriate. I was simply mentioning that indeed Paramount used the (admittedly tacky) term for their stars in the mid to late 1930's. BTW, if you do even a cursory Google image search, you can find this very photo with the Universal copyright of 1941 still printed on the border, and several with "Badlands of Dakota" referenced. 75.164.206.100 (talk) 15:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Along that line, I should also say (but forgot), I'm wholly neutral as to any weaving of the Paramount slogan somewhere into the text, I was only saying that if a consensus for doing so does show up, it could easily be done in an encyclopedic way. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It would probably be quite a useful comment to make in the article, especially as it was that type of branding and promotion that Farmer resisted, and it could be done in an encyclopedic way. The first paragraph of "A rebellious star" would be the likely place to include this information. We would only "Babylonize" things if we put it in the infobox. Rossrs (talk) 20:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yes, putting it in the infobox would be... highly unhelpful. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Concerns

1) It does not make sense to remove a citations needed tag considering this BLP article wholly with minor and trivial exceptions relies on Jeffrey Kauffmann's website. 2) A BLP needs more and better citations than one guy's website. Kauffmann seeks to refute the claims made by others (Farmer, Arnold etc.), so it is rather relevant to include the work and claims he seeks to refute. To repeatedly remove details, which pertains to the article subject and their life and refutations stated makes little sense. We can not present one side and then not the other when both are interlinked. Also the dispute of Farmer's book remains to be seen, considering many psych. academics have referred to her book in their work. Similarily The Citizen's Commission on Human Rights' view on the state of Steilacoom is relevant to include. NPOV should be observed. Fragma08 (talk) 20:16, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Fine regarding the template. However, you keep insisting that this is not an unreliable source. It contains direct quotes from Farmer's book. In fact, that is what you are using here, direct quotes from her book, copied into another book. Will There Really Be a Morning? was widely disputed regarding accuracy, both of content and of Farmer's memory. In fact, it is bad practice to rely on content from one book copied into another. And you are also relying on a website to quote the Citizen's Commission on Human Rights, part and parcel copied from one source, to the website and which you have copied verbatim from the website without properly citing the entire quote you have pasted. Again, where's the original source? That's the issue here, copied from copies from copies. You aren't quoting the Commission as you claimed here, you are copying a website that isn't the Commission. That's a problem as far as I'm concerned. It's basically copyright violations. As for denigrating the source used, take a hard look at what was sourced from there. Dispute any of it? Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I honestly don't see the copyright violations. What I do see, is several books written by psych. academics citing Farmer's book. Where is the widely dispute regarding Farmers book and content - other than Kaufmann that is? Also would it not seem reasonable to include, what Kaufmann seeks to refute? Or else we should not include Kaufmann and his website either as the two are heavily interlinked and the omission of one preluding half is my concern. Books are used in many articles and BLPs are rarely supported mainly by original research or primary sources. The fact that pshyc. experts, authors are using Farmer as point of reference is important surely. It would seem perfect in line with NPOV to include Farmers version, along with secondary Arnold and then Kaufmann's dispute of former's claims. The CCHR, (quoted albeit through a secondary source so not really my claim) part can be rephrased or/added the full original reference which is Psychiatry – Manipulating Creativity, CCHR booklet, Los Angeles, published 2002, p.35. I am not sure I follow your last sentence and what you want me to look at. What and why are you accusing me of denigrating any source? I don't see how this will help this discussion and I do dispute any such accusation made by you. Fragma08 (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The CCHR are not "mental watchdogs" (talk about NPOV, LOL)--they are part and parcel of Scientology. If quotes from them are going to be included, their affiliation with Scientology should also be included.174.25.148.83 (talk) 01:39, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, talk about NPOV considering considering the "mental wathdog" label is not mine but I rather quoted directly from the source mentioning them! No skin off my nose to just write CCHR to be NPOV. I have not come across any affiliation of scientology so I don't see the relevance. There have been later reports of sexual abuse from Steilacoom. Enough sidetracking. Fragma08 (talk) 10:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

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