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The real name of the Byzantine Empire

This medieval state was known as "Ρωμανία/Romania" by its inhabitants and its neighbours. The name Byzantine Empire is a conventional and established by historians. The "Byzantine" refers to the very oldest Athenian colony "Byzantion", which was later renamed Constantinople by transferring of the Roman capital from Rome to Byzantion. I propose the name vasilia ton Romeon (which was not historical fact) that exists in the right column be changed to "Ρωμανία/Romania". The name of the page of course should remain as Byzantine Empire not to be confused with the European country Romania.--79.107.246.24 (talk) 16:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Dimboukas (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with this proposal. (I think the names included in the infobox in this case should be "Ρωμανία","Rhōmanía" and "Romania".) Cody7777777 (talk) 14:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't all articles in Misplaced Pages refer to the empire as The Eastern Roman Empire? The term Byzantine is one made up by historians much later on. The people at the time even referred to themselves as Roman D(r)ead End (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

We aren't meant to correct the mistakes of the ages. The Engish Wiki should reflect the English language, and not improve it. English books, films, TV documentaries, etc overwhelmingly use Byzantine Empire. In other words the name of the article will NOT change anytime soon. Flamarande (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention this is a perennial question. We could add a FAQ section at the top of the page to deal with this, so as to avoid this question being raised all the time. Dr.K.  23:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, as already said sometime before, the term "Byzantine" has subjective pejorative connotations (this can be checked in the following English sources, so probably this is the reason why this question is asked so many times), and pejorative terms should normally be avoided on Misplaced Pages (since they are quite obviosuly against its "Neutral Point of View" rule, which is considered a fundamental principle (or "pillar") of Misplaced Pages). Also, at least in my opinion, it seems somewhat strange to have an article titled "Sultanate of Rûm", while this article is called "Byzantine Empire" (it could even confuse some readers, and it is nearly like saying that the Turks are more "Roman" than the Romans). The English term "Eastern Roman Empire" is also in common usage (and as far as I know, it doesn't have pejorative connotations). So, since there are actually some problems with the term "Byzantine", I have to say, that I can't really understand what is wrong with people who ask this question. Cody7777777 (talk) 13:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Let us not reopen this can of worms, shall we? It has been debated to death far too many times already. Until scholarly usage at least changes from the overwhelming use of "Byzantine", we stick with that. Constantine ✍ 13:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Constantine, i think you are obviously Greek and biased. They called themselves Romans, I think its convenient that you dont want this debated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.187.174 (talk) 06:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I guess the German and British scholars who named it "Byzantine Empire" were also Greek and biased. Not to mention Encyclopedia Britannica, the well known Greek and biased encyclopedia. Dr.K.  07:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it is quite plausible that the British and German scholars used any label they settled on pejoratively, because the "Empire of the Greeks" and the states of medieval Western Europe had a long history of difficult relations and mutual distrust.

Those scholars settled on "Byzantine", so that is the word that became tainted. We are stuck with that, just as we are stuck with tainted words in many other domains. That is not a reason to use the tainted word if there are reasonable alternatives. And even if historians have freed themselves from the influence of the taint, that does not justify using such a word within WP if the public, i.e., the primary users of WP, still recognizes the taint.

We are much better off titling this article "Eastern Roman Empire", and redirecting a new "Byzantine Empire" page to it. (Note that the content of this page is fine. This is purely a titling issue.) Jmacwiki (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

what an ill-informed discussion! The universal scholarly description is "Byzantine". It would be ridiculous to refer to it as "Roman". Sure, until 1204 (not 1453) there was theoretical continuity with the Roman empire. But from the time of the Emperor Zeno to that of Emperor Heraclius the empire clearly morphed from the Eastern Roman Empire of late antiquity into a medieval Greek Empire (I'm not Greek by the way). The major differences being (a) the "fall" of the West (how do you have a Roman Empire without Rome?) (b) the supremacy of Greek language, political customs and culture over Latin/Roman, which became extinct in the empire; (c) the significant territorial differemce between "Byzantium" and East Roman Empire with the losses to the Arabs and (to some extent) the slavs. "Byzantium" is clearly a successor state to the Roman Empire but certainly had pretensions to continuity from, it's fair to say, a propaganda point of view. for most of its history it did indeed describe itself as 'Roman'. But it's not true that (as someone above says) that it was always known as "Romania" by inhabitants and locals. Westerners from the 9th century regularly referred to the empire as "of the Greeks" not Romans. For example, Luitprand of Cremona refers to incidents in the 10th cent. where westerners give offence to the Byzantines by referring to the Basileus as 'Emperor of the Greeks'. Even Anna Komnena in the 11th century sometimes refers to 'Byzantion' in the Alexiad (although admitedly she normally refers to 'Romans'). Even in Byzantium, after the restoration by the Palaiologoi, it became the vogue to refer to themselves as 'Hellenes' rather than 'Romans', as the Byzantines began to cherish their 'pagan' archaic Greek roots over the Christian 'Roman' ones. Otiose99 (talk) 22:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to say, that I do not understand why it would be "ridiculous" to refer to this state as the "Roman Empire", as far as I know, it is a well known fact among scholars that the "Byzantine empire was the Roman empire", and there are also scholarly sources which claim that the "Roman Empire did not come to an end until 1453". And the Romans were not just restricted to the city of Rome (which ceased to be the "de facto" capital of the Empire after 285), following the Edict of Caracalla in 212, most of the people living in the Empire were Romans, regardless of their origins, and after Constantine, the new capital Constantinople was considered to be the Second/New Rome. And in my opinion, this Empire cannot be considered as just a Greek Empire after the 7th century, since even if the official language was Greek, the Empire still had a multi-ethnic character during most of its history, it was only in the 14th-15th centuries that a Greek ethnic dominance became clearly evident (and actually, it should also be noted, that ancient Roman culture, was considerably based on ancient Greek culture). Regarding Anna Komnene, as far as I know, she uses "Byzantion" only when referring to Constantinople (and she does this, because she wants to imitate ancient sources, for example, in the Alexiad the Turks are also called Persians, whle the Pechenegs are also referred as Scythians), but when she refers to all of the Empire's citizens, she calls them "Romans". Cody7777777 (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, there was no continuity to 1453 only 1204. The main point is (and scholarship is united on this) the 'Byzantime Empire' was a different polity to the 'Roman Empire'. You will not find any serious scholarship suggesting otherwise. This is the real reason why it's given a different name. It's a successor state almost in the same way as one could describe the barbarian successor states in the West. Perhaps some people fail to grasp this because there isn't a neat point where one ends and the other starts. Nevertheless it changes and is different. The titles of a few books (you cite) don't change this. You are incorrect on the Empire's ethnic make-up. With the fall of the east to the arabs and north balkans to the slavs the Empire becomes a Greek entity (albeit with minorities). Don't forget Anatolia was at this time largely Greek-speaking and culturally Greek. In fact there is scholarly discussion about how one of the strains imposed by the Macedonian revival in the 10th/11th centuries (particularly with Basil II's acquisitions) was inclusion of large non-Greek populations - something the Byzantines had not had to deal with since the 7th century. DeCausa (talk) 18:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Map Byzantine Empire 1045.svg

The map is incorrect and non-academic. Transylvania was integral part of Hungary (look English Britannica or German Brockhaus Encyclopedias), city of Buda and city of Pest did not exist until the 13th century. Croatia was more little in the 11th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.15.68 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of kindergarten*style wrong maps

Use the realistic Oxford maps instead of wrong nursery-school fantasy maps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.184.193 (talk) 18:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

To you and the above user: those maps are quite helpful. If you have a problem with the accuracy, you can propose changes, but don't just delete long established content. That is unconstructive. Iblardi (talk) 19:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps useful, but if they are incorrect they shouldn't be in the article. Paul August ☎ 19:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Must be a really advanced nursery school. Dr.K.  19:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

OK... Looking at I guess that you wanted to point out that you think that maps File:The Byzantine Empire, c.1180.PNG, File:Byzantiumforecrusades.jpg and File:Map Byzantine Empire 1045.svg are wrong because they 1) show Hungary without Transylvania and 2) the last one shows Buda before it was supposed to be founded? And that is why you removed them from this article (, , )? Right? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 19:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

According to our article on Transylvania, "Between 1003 and 1526, Transylvania was a voivodeship of the Kingdom of Hungary", based on that alone the map File:Map Byzantine Empire 1045.svg, needs to be fixed or removed. I've removed it for now. Paul August ☎ 20:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect to any possible territorial sensitivities by any of the parties involved, I still think that the map fulfills its main purpose, which, for this article, means giving a reasonably accurate impression of the extent of the Byzantine Empire at a particular stage of its existence, as well as of its internal administration, and that removing such a map does more damage than good. However, I agree that any maps used in the encyclopedia should ultimately be based on reliable sources. I am currently not in the position to check and/or correct any of the supposed inaccuracies regarding the neighbouring countries myself at this time, but as said, I find outright deletion in this case unnecessarily rash. Iblardi (talk) 21:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The map hasn't been deleted, simply removed from the article. And it has nothing to due with "territorial sensitivities", by me at least. But — assuming our article on Transylvania is correct (does anybody dispute that?) — the given map is incorrect and should be fixed before being used. Paul August ☎ 21:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I only now see that the article did already contain a map showing the empire in the first half of the 11th century under "Wars against the Bulgarian Empire". My objection should be considered invalid, especially as the only remaining purpose of the 1045 map would be to shed light on the empire's internal arrangement, for which those extraterritorial borders are not needed. Iblardi (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Can we get a clear description of what exactly needs fixed and how? It's an SVG map, so it's relatively easy to edit. I could do it if I had clear and concrete instructions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:50, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I can upload Oxford or Cambridge maps, or maps from Greek and Italian universities , but I'm afraid , they haven't free licences :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.5.130 (talk • contribs)

Indeed, that will be a problem. We need to work with what users create for us, and fix the problems ourselves (see WP:SOFIXIT). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hills333/Europe_1000.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Europe_mediterranean_1190.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.11.129 (talk) 12:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The exact situation of Transylvania during this period is still open to debate, the following map from euratlas.net, shows two independent states (regardless of the origins of their rulers) in Transylvania around the year 1000, the following book also claims that the magyars extended their authority over Transylvania around the year 1100, while this one claims it was conquered by the Hungarian kingdom between the 10th and 13th centuries, the following also claims that, although the Kingdom of Hungary started expanding into Transylvania from the 10th century, it included it entirely around the 13th century as an autonomous principality, and these also make a similar claim. As far as I see, according to these books, although the Kingdom of Hungary started expanding into parts of Transylvania from 10th century, they incorporated it entirely in the 13th century. However, to avoid these debates, I think it would be better to show only the territories of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire on the maps of this article. Cody7777777 (talk) 14:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Euroatlas is an american private company. As you can see: Their maps haven't better quality than wikipedist's maps (. Here are some scanned Historical maps of Oxford, England. (in the site: University of Texas): http://lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/history_europe.html The only reliable sources are the maps of European universities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.13.158 (talk) 15:36, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Please use only 100% creditable sources like English Britannia and German Brockhaus Encyclopedias. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/603323/Transylvania —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.13.158 (talk) 15:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

"Romanian Transilvania, Hungarian Erdély, German Siebenbürgen

"historic eastern European region. After forming part of Hungary (11th–16th century), it was an autonomous principality within the Ottoman Empire (16th–17th century) and then once again became part of Hungary at the end of the 17th century; later it was incorporated into Romania (1918–20). The region, whose name first appeared in written documents in the 12th century, covered a territory bounded by the Carpathian Mountains on the north and east, the Transylvanian Alps on the south, and the Bihor Mountains on the west. The neighbouring regions of Maramureș, Crișana, and Banat have also, on occasion, been considered part of Transylvania.

Having formed the nucleus of the Dacian (Getic) kingdom (flourished 1st century bc–1st century ad) and the Roman province of Dacia (after ad 106), Transylvania was overrun by a succession of barbarian tribes after the Roman legions withdrew about ad 270. Thereafter the Romanized Dacian inhabitants either moved into the mountains and preserved their culture or migrated southward. The area then was repopulated by peoples from the Romanized lands south of the Danube River or from the Balkans. The Magyars (Hungarians) conquered the area at the end of the 9th century and firmly established ... (200 of 1778 words)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.13.158 (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

My Misplaced Pages Motto: Do not be dilettant! (even if this is the lexicon of dilettantism)

Thank you for the article from Britannica (and I'm not debating here if it is right or wrong). However, we cannot base our articles by adopting a single point of view (such as Britannica's point of view), and I've already posted some other reliable books above (including a book published by the "Central European University") which discuss about this topic, and claim that the conquest of Transylvania by the Kingdom of Hungary was a process lasting between the 10th and 13th centuries, and there is also the following book published by the Stanford University, which claims that the Magyars extended their control into Transylvania around the year 1100. (And regarding "euratlas", it is true that it is not the most reliable source, but nonetheless their maps are probably more recent, so I don't think they should be entirely ignored, and actually the map you shown above has a small description on Transylvania stating "Territory in dispute between Hungary and the Pechenegs".) They could be wrong, but we cannot decide here who is right or wrong (since in cases of disputed topics, we need to avoid taking sides, and maintain a neutral point of view on Misplaced Pages, by neutrally representing multiple points of view, instead of adopting a specific point of view). The fact that there are contradicting sources, in my opinion is further proof that in these cases we should avoid showing on the maps of this article, the territories of other states, except those of the state which is the topic of this article. Cody7777777 (talk) 19:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not true. The magyars arrived in Translvania around the 890's. We can discuss about the power of Hungarian king (the state) , but we can't discuss that was under other Hungarian people's control (like Transylvanian Gyula family , who was Saint Stephens relative. ABout euroatlas: Hungarian Kingdom and its Carpathian Basin are littler than Great Britain in their maps (Medieval Hungarian Kindom was around 320.000-390.000km2 Great Britain is just 219,000 km2.) A satellite picture for better comparison: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/1/1b/20051125143002!Europe_satellite_orthographic.jpg But there are serious size-problems with the ratio of other big territories like Hispania. Therefore Euroatlas maps are not serious maps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.7.42 (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Pecheneg state did not exist, they were wild nomad mobil warriors of an area, who attacked and robbed European states. Therefore it is impossible a dispute with non-existent state. Pechenegs lost all of their battle against Hungary. How can an always defeated group of people (who had not central power) discuss an area?

Look the map of Hungarian campaigns of the 10th century: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kalandozasok.jpg According to this Idea, the Hungarians had dispute with Spanish kings about the territory of Spain in the 10th century. It's laughable:))))))))) Isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.7.42 (talk) 19:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

At any rate, McEvedy's atlas (Penguin, 1992) shows the kingdom of Hungary including the Transylvania territory in its maps of 1030 and 1071. (And the Pechenegs/Patzinaks are shown as an independent tribe.) Iblardi (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhabs Croatia lost its political independence under Ladislaus I of Hungary Originally, Croatia and Slavonia were two different states, later united by Hungarian Kings. Read Slavonia article. The map makers didn't know the details of the history of this region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.7.42 (talk) 20:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Notabilities

The Byzantine Empire is notable for being a multi-ethnic state and a product of Latin conquerors. The origins of a state have to be explicitly mentioned in the lede, thereby neutralizing confusion for readers that are unfamiliar with the topic. It is also necessary to state the socio-cultural amalgamation of the empire so that readers can attain a factual perspective on its holistic character. Indeed the Byzantine Empire was composed of citizens of Latin, Greek, Arab, Slav, Vlach, Armenian, Georgian and Coptic ancestry. This certainly showcases the level of administrative and indeed cultural tolerance that existed within its borders, its pre-eminent position in the Eastern Mediterranean and the relatively progressive nature of its official institutions.--Monshuai (talk) 09:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The fact that the empire had a multi-ethnic character during most of its history is indeed supported by many sources(,,,,,,,,,,,,), and I also think this should be stated more explicitly in the article. However, the claim that it was "a product of Latin conquerors" seems somewhat misleading, this empire was the medieval continuation of the Roman Empire (which from the beginning had a multi-ethnic character), and Constantinople was founded by the Romans, not just by Latins or Greeks (it is, of course, true that many Romans were also Latins, but especially by the 3rd-4th centuries, nearly all of the empire's inhabitants had Roman citizenship, regardless of their origins). Cody7777777 (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Coinage

Feel free to use in the article the following coin depicting Byzas, founder of Byzantium. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 17:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The Byzantine (Eastern Roman / Roman) Empire Still Exists?

The Greek-speaking Roman (Byzantine) Empire of the East still exists in a sense, in the form of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, which still resides in Constantinople (Istanbul) and inherits an unbroken continuity of succession from the time of the last Byzantine emperors and the theocratic administration of late Rome. Rome, at its end, was in Constantinople and was only defeated in the fifteenth century by the Turks, yet the Patriarchate of the Greek Church (which was the official Church of Rome at the end) still remains to this day. Even though there is no Emperor, the little walled compound in Istanbul that is controlled by the Church retains, essentially, the mantle of the former glory of the Empire, and may be the final vestige of Byzantium. It's an interesting notion. Think about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.163.5 (talk) 08:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Mt. Athos actually has a better claim of that general type (and isn't currently micromanaged by the Turkish government)... AnonMoos (talk) 12:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I could argue that the Catholic church centred on the Vatican is the last remnant of the Western Roman Empire. Flamarande (talk) 13:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

no

This map is not correct. 500's, was the Serbian kingdom, and is not occupied Byzantium --Стефан Немањић (talk) 08:21, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Religion: Orthodoxy? Yes, But Only After Schism

Christianity at the time of the conversion of Rome and Constantinople considered itself to be One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and, yes, Orthodox, but the infobox seems to imply that the Byzantine Empire fell under the religious governance of the Eastern Orthodox Church from the beginning, when in fact the Western and Eastern Churches did not officially distinguish themselves until around the 11th Century. I would change the infobox to state: "Religion: Christianity; later, Eastern Orthodox Christianity." The term "Orthodox" was popularized by the Greek Church after the schism between East and West but the Christians of early Constantinople would not have referred to themselves as Eastern Orthodox Christians. Similarly, the Christians of Rome at the time would not have referred to themselves as Roman Catholics, only as Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.47.58 (talk) 05:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Excellent point! I have fixed this, including mentioning the East-West Schism in 1054. Cheers.--Pericles of Athens 23:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.47.58 (talk) 03:18, 10 July 2010 (UTC)