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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Block of User:William M. Connolley by User:The Wordsmith

This entire section has been moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Block of William M. Connolley to save space on the ANI page as well as to centralize discussion in a logical place. –MuZemike 19:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Donald Duck behavior

I want to report User:Donald Duck behavior. I'm clearing wikipedia from User:Zombie433 fake edits. I reported it there].

User:Donald Duck reverted my good edits, then I post a message with explanation on his talk page . But he is deleting my messages and posting some stupid warnings on my talkpage. Could you explain with him his freaky behavior?--Wrwr1 (talk) 17:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

• You need to notify any user you discuss here. I'll be doing that now. elektrikSHOOS 17:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I can't do it because he's deleting my messages.--Wrwr1 (talk) 17:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
    • If an editor deletes a message you leave on their talk page, that's an implicit acknowledgment that they've read the message. If you leave them a notice of this discussion and they delete it, your obligation is over. -- Atama頭 18:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
• Calling you a vandal for posting an explanation of what you are doing on xyr talk page is inexcusable behaviour on Donald Duck's part. However, you could have acted to prevent yourself from getting into this mess in the first place. You're removing what you assert to be false information that one editor systematically added to Misplaced Pages. But there's no clue in your edit summaries that you're doing this. Your edit summaries do not provide any way to distinguish between what you are doing and what vandals do to Misplaced Pages every day. You're blanking parts of articles and statistics from infoboxes, and the very best that your edit summaries have been are "fake, pov". In many cases, you haven't provided any edit summaries at all. How on Earth is anyone to tell that you're doing this with good intentions, as part of a WikiProject Football cleanup effort, if you don't say so in your edit summaries. Link your edit summaries to a WikiProject Football discussion showing consensus amongst editors to systematically revert these additions.

  Here's a maxim for you specifically to remember (that will have Arthur C. Clarke spinning in his grave like Rama):

  Any sufficiently poorly made well-intentioned edit is indistinguisable from vandalism.

  Uncle G (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

• This isn't the first time that I've run into this issue with Donald Duck. I don't believe that they have the firmest grasp on WP:VAN. See here where there were two good faith edits reported as vandalism (which I'll admit eventually led to the editor's block after some uncivil responses to the vandalism templates, but that's beside the point), and even some edit warring on the editor's own talk page. These good faith edits reported as vandalism are accompanied with less-than-stellar edit summaries, so probably no more than a trout is warranted, but I do see something of a pattern of mistakes here. -- Atama頭 18:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

• Harrassment is a blockable offense. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 20:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, but this would be borderline at best; harassment usually occurs when an editor targets another editor or group of editors and specifically tries to make them miserable through various means. Donald Duck's behavior has been untargeted, and more importantly I believe that they truly believe that their vandalism warnings are genuine. Mistakes can be blockable if they cause disruption and the editor has been warned about them and willfully continues them, but that hasn't happened here from what I can see. I still feel that a nice fish-slap is all that's needed. -- Atama頭 21:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I agree with everything Atama has said. I know I'm not perfect and make mistakes, but there is a bit of a pattern I see with Donald Duck. Tommy! 01:25, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Actually I was referring to Wrwr1's repeated harrassment of Donald Duck. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 06:07, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
      • Then you need some sense of perspective. Three user talk page edits and no interactions other than on the football articles that the user talk page edits were discussing and explaining is not harrassment by any stretch of the imagination. This edit summary should not be taken as gospel. It's Huggle Happiness, just hitting the Huggle buttons that one hits all of the time because it's easier than doing things right according to specific cases. Notice that Donald Duck reverts and dismisses/ignores every editor who doesn't have an account or a user page, whatever the discussion. This response is a good indicator that Huggle Happiness is setting in, too.

        Indeed, the talk page message there, again blithely ignored by Donald Duck because it comes from someone without an account whom xe has dismissed as a vandal, is an attempt to communicate, made by an ordinary editor, with someone who has gone Huggle Happy. The recent edit history of Worksop makes for interesting reading: Two Huggle using editors ganging up with robotic edit summary explanations against that editor, not only whose information is correct but whose intent to correct is explained in the talk page edit that just gets ignored by the Huggler.

        If this weren't bad enough, at Milieu therapy Donald Duck has just used Huggle to reinsert a blatant copyright violation four times. Attempts to communicate about that were ignored too, and the editor who was doing good work keeping us free from content that is "Copyright Focus Alternative Learning Center All Rights Reserved" is now blocked for "vandalism". Huggle Happiness is not acting to the betterment of the encyclopaedia here.

        A quick word in the ear of Spencer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) seems warranted at this point.

        I'm going to leave it up for the next few hours for the edificiation of people without administrator privileges reading this discussion, but since the copyright violation in Milieu therapy goes back to its very first version (as noted in 2007), the entire edit history is a copyright violating derived work, and has to go. It's unacceptable that a Huggler should edit war to keep copyright violations in Misplaced Pages and blatantly ignore the people coming to xyr user page to discuss it. Uncle G (talk) 13:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

        • @Everard Proudfoot: I assumed you meant Donald Duck because I couldn't imagine how Wrwr1's communications could be considered harassment.
        • @Uncle G: Thanks for that extra information. I didn't realize how extensive this problem was, I've apparently only seen the tip of the iceberg (and I admit I didn't take the time to really look into their behavior, I've only seen Donald Duck's behavior in passing a couple of times this week). This looks like a serious problem and I'm wondering if this uncommunicative editor is far too disruptive to allow unblocked. I think I will take the time to look into this. -- Atama頭 16:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I see nothing disruptive in my edits. Per Ungle G's comment, he / she should have put clearer edit summeries. "Fake" is not a clear edit summary. Anyone in my place could have done the same as me. - Donald Duck (talk) 17:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
        • Edit summaries are not always clear, hence why we have diffs. Anyone in your place would have looked at them. ANowlin 17:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

• He posted a very rude response to a warning I gave him after he reverted a blanking at WP:AfC, that was done after the original author. He asserts that he has done nothing wrong, and that we are treating him like he is dumb. He also says that everyone makes mistakes with HG. IMHO: Someone needs to be brought back down to earth. HG doesn't make you God. ANowlin 17:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't think that "HG doesn't make you God" is fair or applicable in this case, let's try not to make this discussion unnecessarily heated. Donald Duck, I am glad you have decided to participate, but don't you see that the sheer volume of mistakes you're making is a problem? I'm willing to cut any recent pages patroller some slack, fighting vandalism is very admirable, but all of the "friendly fire" going on is really worrisome. Even more troubling than the mistakes is ignoring the repeated pleas to be careful, and an unwillingness to listen when someone protests a vandalism tag. -- Atama頭 17:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Anowlin, there is nothing rude in my response; don't accuse me. Atama, how's this for a start at resolving this discussion? - Donald Duck (talk) 17:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I simply do not understand how you reverted the removal of copyvio 4 times at Milieu therapy despite clear edit summaries asserting it was copyvio. Most users would be blocked for that. Dougweller (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
        • Woah! He wasn't blocked for this? ANowlin 18:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
        • His / her edit summaries actually weren't that clear. Yes, he pointed towards WP:COPYVIO and such, but what was copyrighted in the article? He / She never said what was copyrighted by linking to where the text came from. - Donald Duck (talk) 17:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
          • If it's a removal, that points to WP:COPYVIO, maybe you should check, instead of pressing Q or R. ANowlin 18:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
          • Thanks for striking out those warnings, that's a helpful gesture. I'm wondering, is Huggle the whole problem here? Maybe avoiding that tool is a good idea. Just throwing that out for consideration to all here. -- Atama頭 17:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
          • Also, I agree, the response to Anowlin wasn't rude... Curt, perhaps, and dismissive, but not necessarily rude. (Rude would be saying that Anowlin was stupid.) -- Atama頭 17:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
            • Actually, I recently came back from a hiatus because my PC was broken down from July 1st, 2010 to July 26th, 2010. In that time period, I either used my mom's PC or my Dell, which I now call a substitute PC since the Dell is just there as a back-up PC now. Neither of them had Huggle, so I figured it was a good time to take a break. - Donald Duck (talk) 17:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
              • Not an excuse. Calm down, and lay off the Q and R keys. You're wearing them out. ANowlin 18:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
                • I wasn't using my PC as an excuse; quit accusing me of things. - Donald Duck (talk) 20:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
                  • Please. If you see anything in an edit summary that suggests text has been removed as copyvio, don't put it back unless you are sure it isn't copyvio. Ask someone else to check if you don't think you are able to check it properly. Ask me if you want to, I'm not bad at finding copyvio although (like today) I hate finding it as it can cause a lot of work. Dougweller (talk) 19:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
          • Actually, xyr edit summaries were fairly clear, and the content being removed had "captured from: www.focus-alternative.org/milieu.htm" in a section title and a {{copypaste}} tag at the top. 75.173.6.133 wasn't exactly being mysterious and secretive (unlike 71.198.107.182 who, if xe had pointed this out more clearly all those years ago, would have saved us a lot of this trouble).

            Incidentally:

            edit

            What's wrong with 67.87.110.178 trying to tell us what Connecticut judicial marshals are armed with? Uncle G (talk) 20:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I also have had numerous problems with DD's edits. A quick look at his/her talk page will show three different reverts that were unwarranted and unexplained by DD which I protested. This has now moved from annoying to disruptive, IMHO. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 22:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

And I've just discovered that s/he's also filing false vandalism reports. Will somebody with some authority around here wield a trout, or perhaps even remove Huggle access? 69.181.249.92 (talk) 22:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a saying to remember: "Everyone makes mistakes". Anyway, your edit summary "stupid 'bot" was very misleading. Please use clearer edit summaries in the future. Thank you. Also, here's a suggestion. If you don't want your edits showing up on Huggle, create an account. - Donald Duck (talk) 22:49, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Why should I cater to your inability to actually look at an edit as opposed to over-relying on Huggle and making assumptions based on an edit summary? Creating an account isn't going to correct the problems you exhibit. Even a quick look at the history would have shown that I very clearly indicated at every step what I was doing and why.69.181.249.92 (talk) 00:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It's called being civil. Also, I did look at the edit, and I found nothing wrong in ClueBot's revert. You removed content without an explanation. Creating an account will solve the so-called problems I don't have. You'll be automatically whitelisted by Huggle, meaning your edits won't appear while someone's using Huggle. - Donald Duck (talk) 04:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Just as a heads up this was an incorrect revert (which is what the IP is talking about) rollback and warning is only for clear vandalism - which this was not. A good look at the diff (and the used edit summary) should have prompted you to check the article history - which would have provided good context. Even then rollback is inappropriate - it is a content issue and so should be undone instead then discussed on the talk page. I agree anyone can make mistakes; but you have made a good number in a short space of time - it might be worth refreshing on vandalism policy (in a nutshell; err on the side of caution and prefer to treat it as a content issue if you can). --Errant Tmorton166 09:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I too have noted incorrect warnings, reverts, and uncivil behaviour from this editor. This reversion was incorrectly marked as vandalism in the edit summary and posting a level 3 vandalism warning was also uncalled for. When the editor queried this on User talk:Donald Duck, the response was a warning about test edits on User talk:Donald Duck, which was also inappropriate. A question or comment about an editor's actions cannot be considered a test edit. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The above behaviour came to light following a post at WP:Editor assistance/Requests#Threats from Editor. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:24, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Where I also saw it. I considered posting here but Jezhotwells beat me to it. Not good. Dougweller (talk) 14:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, this has gone long enough. The original post / report was regarding Wrwr. I stroke out my warnings on his talk page, so this has been resolved. The above issue, which is unrelated, is from August 12th; therefore, it's not necessary to post about it. Next thing you guys will do is look for something else to use against me in my 2009 discussios. - Donald Duck (talk) 14:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I take your point, and I'm sorry I hadn't checked the date that the actual edits occurred. By the way, I almost didn't look at your edit here, you marked it M. Dougweller (talk) 14:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It's quite all right. I'll post on your talk page shortly with a question. - Donald Duck (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

What people are trying to do, DD, is to ensure you understand that you have a long history of bad reverts, misuse of rollback, not responding in a meaningful way to legitimate questions, and, most of all, that you understand the missteps you've made and will strive to do better. Simply dismissing something as old when you haven't learned from it is just continuing the pattern of unrepentant, errant reverts. I'm still not seeing acknowledgement of any of this. And nine days is not that long ago. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 15:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Reading that sounds very patronizing. - Donald Duck (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

If nine days is so long ago that it's the mists of memory, how about three hours? Take these edits:

• edit
• edit

Tolgagurcan is happily and quietly writing an article on the TAI Hürkuş. A 'bot warns on the article's talk page that one of the links is to a disambiguation. Writers fix the problem and Tolgagurcan removes the warning from the talk page since it has been deal with. Then you come along, put the 'bot notice back (even though it's no longer true) and give the poor article writer a Huggle vandalism warning. And this is while this very discussion on this noticeboard is drawing everyone's attention to your use of Huggle. What on Earth are you thinking? Uncle G (talk) 17:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking, and I did what any normal Huggler would do, which is to revert unexplained blanking of content or removal of content. I also gave the appropriate warning, which was a "huggleblank1". In that message, there is nothing that says the edit was vandalism. Quit looking for things that aren't a problem as excuses to get after me. - Donald Duck (talk) 17:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

"Any normal Huggler" is expected not to warn editors for undertaking normal talk page maintenance. If you don't see such behavior as a problem, that's a problem. — Gavia immer (talk) 17:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Donald Duck, you don't seem that understand that your editing behaviour is the problem. Why do you think som many editors came here to report so many diffrent incidents. Please desist from this behaviour is it is disrupticve. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

DD, no it is definitely not what any Huggler should be doing. Lack of an edit summary does not mean vandalism - it means the user might need a friendly (NON template) talk page note about using edit summaries. If you see no ediit summary you should (even must) take time to check the edit and it's context before reverting. I will consider edits for anything up to a minute when Huggling. --Errant Tmorton166 20:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, guys, can we just call this resolved? Let's let bygones be bygones. If anyone has a problem with me a in the future, please don't hesitate to come to my talk page and discuss said future problems, and, if I don't respond within 24 hours, feel free to also bring it up here at WP:AN/I. - Donald Duck (talk) 00:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. I see no evidence that you've actually learned anything from this, only that you want to ignore past mistakes and move on. No apologies, no regrets, no answers to still-outstanding concerns on your talk page, just "let bygones by begones." 69.181.249.92 (talk) 00:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You really shouldn't be posting if you're just going to be negative. Also, did you not read the part about my talk page? - Donald Duck (talk) 00:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but I also see quite a few complaints there that are still unanswered (including my first interaction with you, when you issued me a vandalism warning for putting a spam tag on a page). Are we expected to just sweep those under the rug and pretend that they didn't happen, that you're starting anew with no prior history? In that case perhaps you should retire this persona and create a new ID, one without Huggle and/or rollback privileges. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 01:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I never said that, but one shouldn't hang onto the past; instead, they should just move on and learn from any mistakes they've made. That doesn't mean said events in the past didn't happen, it just means they're moving on. You're trying to take this out of proportion. - Donald Duck (talk) 01:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

DD, a frequent response to misuse of Huggle is for us to remove it. But we need not do so if you are willing to promise to edit without using it, or any other automated editing tool? DGG ( talk ) 03:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There's also the option of improving. There are a lot of people, myself included, that have bad streaks of things sometimes, whether they're in real life or something on said person's computer. Also, there are more good Huggle reverts from me than there are bad. It just seems bad right now because of what's being read. In fact, there were a few months this year where I barely got any messages. Here's an example: For my July 2010 archive, there are only four archived discussions. Here's another one: Although there were a lot of discussions for February 2010, a lot of them were positive. - Donald Duck (talk) 03:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You could demonstrate a true desire to improve by going back and dealing with some of those unanswered posts on your page, rescinding the bad warnings you've issued and otherwise dealing with the problems that already exist because of the way you've been using Huggle. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 04:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There you go. I replied to you on my talk page and took care of my bad reverts / edits that remained for August 2010. Also, I apologize for reverting you. I believe I've only reverted you twice, but I'm not sure. - Donald Duck (talk) 04:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The only concerning thing is that this has been going on for a while looking at those archives - i.e. you haven't taken on previous advice about what does constitute vandalism. If you've read the advice above, though, and taken it in, then this thread is probably over. You do have a lot of previous "false positives" for a Huggle user --Errant Tmorton166 11:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In that case, can someone mark this as resolved? - Donald Duck (talk) 19:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Donald Duck has a history of Huggle abuse, unwillingness to communicate, disruptive editing, harassment, and attacking others by accusing them of vandalism and/or harrassment. He does not stop even when informed or blocked. AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Donald Duck reverted one of my edits too, deleting a redlink. Had Donald Duck paused to consider, or even looked at my other edits, Donald Duck would have seen there was a good reason for my edit. On Donald Duck's talk page are some complaints about how Donald Duck uses Huggle ... I guess this is a tool for fighting vandalism. Donald Duck seems to have trouble telling the difference between vandalism and good faith edits. Perhaps it is time for Donald Duck to take a break from fighting vandalism and instead spend some time learning how to contribute to Misplaced Pages. That will help Donald Duck understand what other contributors are trying to do, and be able to help them rather than revert them. 68.167.224.215 (talk) 22:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Really? I understand there have been some issues with me, which I have no problem admitting, but it is not necessary to bring up every, little petty thing on here. The same goes for any user. Bring it up on their talk page first; then, if they're unwilling to discuss said issue, that's when one brings it up at WP:AN/I. 68.167.224.215, I've replied on my talk page. - Donald Duck (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In reply to this Donald Duck replied with the remark I saw that you created the page, so I have no further objections. Objections? Further objections!? Is Donald Duck a designated gatekeeper here? I find this behavior rather disruptive. Even if each inconsiderate edit by Donald Duck were as trivial as Donald Duck suggests, would the cumulative effect be trivial? I think not. If it is Donald Duck's job to raise the bar for contributors like me, then whose job is it to raise the bar for Donald Duck? 68.167.224.215 (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The main issue seems to be Donald Duck's misuse of Huggle. Can this tool be taken away from this editor. Studying his talk page and contributions and his responses here leads me to believe that he really does not learn form these "mistakes". There is a futher incident today where a comment by another editor was removed from another thread on this page. DD blamed it ion edit conflict! talk#ANI deletion. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

That's because it was an edit conflict issue. Do you really think I would lie? This has gone long enough. - Donald Duck (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the main issue is Donald Duck's consistent reverting of other editors' appropriate edits. Huggle is merely the tool at hand; the problem is in the user. This ANI has been open 5 days now and in that time Donald Duck has continued in this disruptive behavior. 68.167.224.215 (talk) 02:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Although the repeated misuse of Huggle after many warnings warrants at least a month block, the continued trolling and harassment is what really concerns me and makes me fully support an indef block. Donald Duck was already blocked on 24 April 2009 for harassment and should have learned his lesson, but continued to troll afterwords . David Kovic (talk) 02:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The Huggle misuse is continuing . I have removed Huggle for 6 months. Given that the last block was a year ago, I am not willing to block indefinitely at this time. I will, however, support a blcck for a substantial period if problematic behavior continues. DGG ( talk ) 03:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Donald Duck also has rollback permission. It was removed once before and given back. Can it be taken away until Donald Duck demonstrates a good understanding of what is not vandalism? In the meantime, perhaps Donald Duck will try contributing to articles. This user has so few contributions here that perhaps this user has not experienced being on the receiving end of disruptive reverts. 68.167.224.215 (talk) 03:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I bet you're happy that this happened, and yet you're still trying to cause trouble for me. You and others accused me of continuing my "disruptive" edits, but that is not true. When this discussion was supposed to be over, I learned and improved and made no further disruptive edits. I don't see where I continued my so-called disruptive edits. I've raised my concerns of this unfair removal of Huggle to a couple administrators. - Donald Duck (talk) 03:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What about your trolling? AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 04:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What trolling!? - Donald Duck (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Try this. 68.167.224.215 (talk) 04:22, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, no. I made one little mistake. Now the world will end! Seriously, get a grip. I don't want to play the blame game, but I feel part of this is your guys' fault. The discussion was pretty much over, and then you guys had to come and heat it up again by pointing out petty things. As to the IP address, that's not stalking nor trolling. The talk page was on my watchlist, I saw an edit was made, and I commented. Speaking of mistakes, please see the very last part of Oh-No-It's-Jamie's second comment here. - Donald Duck (talk) 04:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not consider trolling as being petty. AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 05:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

As already stated, Huggle was removed from you because your amount of mistakes was extremely high. AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 05:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Your comment on User talk:Pinethicket was trolling as well as it was a personal attack. AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 05:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It was a bit uncivil, perhaps, but it was by no means a personal attack. - Donald Duck (talk) 05:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Accusing someone of "trying to cause trouble for this user" can be considered a personal attack and harassment. Your comment was also disruptive because it did not belong on Pinethicket's talk page. AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 05:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:TALKPAGE, I see nothing wrong there. Again, a bit uncivil, but nowhere near a personal attack. Also, one edit does not make it harassment. It also wasn't disruptive. There was no accusing there, as I simply made a comment. However, it's a different story here since it's a much bigger discussion on a more important issue. - Donald Duck (talk) 05:24, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A user's talk page is for discussing that user's work. Since your comment was directed at 68.167.224.215, it should have been placed on User talk:68.167.224.215. AAAACCCCDDDDCCCC (talk) 05:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Possibly influx of POV editing by Israeli settlers

I spotted this article in Ha'aretz this morning. Whilst there are several existing editors enforcing a pro-settler POV (some for several years now), some extra eyes on this area of Misplaced Pages (particularly the articles mentioned in the news report - Haneen Zoabi, Ariel University Center of Samaria, Bil'in and Gaza flotilla raid) might be a good idea. Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ 57 08:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm interested in the "Best Zionist Editor" competition and the trip in a hot-air balloon over Israel. I'm not much of a Zionist but I like hot air ballons and I want to be that lucky encyclopedist in 4 years time. I'm assuming non-Zionists can enter the competition. Luckily all of those articles are already on my watchlist so that's a start. More seriously, it's not unusual for articles to be published on the media calling for people to edit Israel related articles in Misplaced Pages, one of government ministries had a completely out in the open paid Hasbara scheme around the time of Operation Cast Lead (not sure whether that is still going) and I've seen various off wiki advocacy sites that have similar aims and offer advice. I'm not sure it's anything much to worry about plus I'm not sure that the partisan battling in the I-P area on wiki in general can get that much worse. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

• - http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2010/08/will-i-become-wikipedia-editor.html - you could not make that up, hilarious. Off2riorob (talk) 13:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

• - Not sure what can be done other than keep a closer eye on new accounts diving right in to controversial articles, but in the wake of Misplaced Pages:CAMERA, I hope this is taken seriously. Tarc (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

• more press coverage in the guardian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Earlypsychosis (talk • contribs) 22:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Since one of the remedies ArbCom implemented after the Misplaced Pages:CAMERA affair was to urge editors to notify them of coordinated efforts like this, would someone who knows how to do that please inform the Committee? Thanks,  – OhioStandard (talk) 02:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The New York Times has picked up the story. Way to go, guys. Skinwalker (talk) 22:21, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It can be a serious blow to neutrality of Wiki. We should keep an eye as suggested by пﮟოьεԻ 57-- Jim Fitzgerald 21:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Per User:Ohiostandard's comment above, I have notified the ArbCom clerks at WT:Arbitration Committee/Clerks#Possible influx of POV editing by Israeli settlers. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Canvassing votes

Several days ago, I initiated a discussion at Talk:Hyundai Elantra#Merger of Elantra LPI Hybrid to merge the contents of Hyundai Elantra LPI Hybrid to Hyundai Elantra.

One of the voters, Mariordo decided to canvass support for his point-of-view by messaging four other users, , , , and .

This is not the first time that Mariordo has done this. At a previous discussion to merge Toyota Camry Hybrid with Toyota Camry (XV40) the user in question canvassed five votes from users that would support his point-of-view: , , ,, . An administrator at Talk:Toyota Camry Hybrid even stated that canvassing votes is not allowed due to it undermining the consensus-building process.

Of the four users that the user in question has requested support from, all of them voted in his favour at the previous merger proposal at Talk:Toyota Camry Hybrid (the primary topic and rationale behind both mergers are identical).

I have attempted to reason with Mariordo at his talk page (), but he maintains that, "inviting other editors to participate is allowed", despite the clear guidelines of WP:CANVASS, a policy that I have made clear to Mariordo on several occasions.

All that I am requesting is for the integrity of Misplaced Pages's consensus building procedure be maintained. OSX (talk • contributions) 23:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I have notified of this thread. Basket of Puppies 02:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Mariordo has, on three occasions, notified me of discussions regarding electric vehicles, including hybrid electric vehicles. He understands that many of my edits revolve around this subject, and I have always appreciated his notifications. He certainly does not know how I will feel about any given subject, and we have had disagreements in the past (see Talk:Electric_bicycle#Pike_Research_Report as an example). He phrases his notifications in neutral terms, and he has never tried to influence my opinion when he notifies me. I have responded to two of these notifications, and not responded to one (other than acknowledging that I received his note and declining to participate in the discussion). I do not feel that I have been "canvassed" in any way, shape or form.

OSX has been consistently antagonistic toward Mariordo, as he is toward many people (myself included) who disagree with his edits. Here is one example of his childish harassment and name-calling: Talk:Hyundai_Elantra#Merger_of_Elantra_LPI_Hybrid. It is clear to me that the notice on this board is just one more attempt on OSX's part to silence a rational, dedicated, polite editor whose views sometime conflict with those of OSX. Ebikeguy (talk) 03:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's too much inherently wrong with this canvassing. The alleged canvassing could have been handled much better by OSX, the warnings he gave were aloof and bordering on rude ("I'll report you to the ANI board and you may be blocked"); but I don't think it's a gross violation of policy, or arguably a violation at all. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 09:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Look, being the second time this user has done this (and been told about it too) I was simply following the guidelines of WP:CANVASS which states, "The most effective response to quite recent, clearly disruptive canvassing is to politely request that the user(s) responsible for the canvassing stop posting notices. If they continue, they may be reported to the administrators' noticeboard, which may result in their being blocked from editing."

I've asked Mariordo to stop canvassing on two separate occasions but have been ignored. Too bad then if my tone came across as a little aloof. I think Mariordo is guitly of the same. OSX (talk • contributions) 00:02, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

When have your accusations that Mariordo canvassed votes been ignored? Your accusations have been dealt with in depth each time I have seen you make them. Such accusations generated substantial discussion in the Toyota Camry Hybrid merger thread. See here for an example. Ebikeguy (talk) 17:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

You've misunderstood what I said, "I've asked Mariordo to stop canvassing on two separate occasions but have been ignored". Let me rephrase that: on the two separate instances that I told Mariordo that canvassing was not the done thing, he disregarded the policy of WP:CANVASS and dismissed my concerns. OSX (talk • contributions) 23:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I understood exactly what you wrote, although you may have meant something entirely different from what you said. Thus far in the discussion on this thread, you seem to be the only one who feels that Mariordo has disregarded the policy of WP:CANVASS. Nobody, including Mariordo, dismissed your concerns. We addressed them and came to the conclusion that they were unfounded. Ebikeguy (talk) 02:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• As the links provided by OSX clearly prove, I simply notified other regular users interested in the subject about the ongoing discussion, and according to the rules of appropriate notification, the text is neutral, the posting were limited (only 4 users), and in a transparent way (leaving messages in those users talk pages). So I do not see any violation to Wiki policy, I just a followed a regular channel to make others aware of the discussion.-Mariordo (talk) 23:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

So Mariordo, I take it that you won't mind if I notify some other editors as well? Neutrally and transparently of course. OSX (talk • contributions) 23:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:CANVASS covers inappropriate canvassing and in this instance I don't see anything that wrong with the manner in which the user canvassed. When a discussion on a particular topic is being put to the floor I believe it is encouraged to notify appropriate users and wiki projects who are known experts or long time editors of the topic. Where this crosses the line is when users are hand-picked for their viewpoints. The message from Ebikeguy serves to illustrate that the canvass was not restricted to a pre-defined point of view and I will agf toward the truthfulness of Ebikeguy's statement. WP:Articles for deletion, although not a direct reference in this instance, encourages the notification of interested wiki project and main contributors of an article. In this instance, I can understand why Mariordo would want all topic-interested editors to participate in the merge discussion. If Mariordo's canvassing has taken a different tone or gone outside of the circle of editors who are intimately involved in the topic of hybrid automobiles I would feel otherwise.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 05:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The message from Ebikeguy is deceptive and does not explain that Mariordo only notified the editors that supported his point-of-view in the previous discussion at Talk:Toyota Camry Hybrid. That is the point of this WP:ANI complaint. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

My message was straightforward and fact-based. It was in no way deceptive. I spoke the truth plainly, and I strongly disagree with any statements to the contrary. OSX may be assuming that all editors who are interested in electric vehicles will vote as a block on any given subject. This is clearly not the case, as I demonstrated in my previous post on this thread. Ebikeguy (talk) 15:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Ebikeguy, you know as well as I do that if I was to canvass votes based on the Camry Hybrid debate, that the supporters of the merger would far outweigh the opposition. By supporting Mariordo's canvassing of only the opposing points-of-view, that leaves me with the impression that it is okay for the supporters of the merger to do the same. So let me ask you the question: is it okay? OSX (talk • contributions) 23:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

If you were to unfairly canvass votes for the Elantra merger, you might be able to find lots of your friends who would support your position, so please don't do that, okay? No one, including Mariordo, has unfairly canvassed votes for the anti-merger side, as evidenced by the expert opinions expressed in this debate, so we would appreciate the same courtesy from those supporting the other side of the argument. Many thanks. Ebikeguy (talk) 02:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

So let me get this straight. Mariordo requested input from Johnfos, North wiki, Ebikeguy, and Daniel.Cardenas—all supporters of the Camry Hybrid merger—and you think that does not count as canvassing?

WP:CANVASS is quite clear. It says, "Inappropriate notification posting messages to groups of users selected on the basis of their known opinions – for example, sending notifications only to those who supported a particular viewpoint in a previous discussion". The opposing opinions of Johnfos, North wiki, Ebikeguy, and Daniel.Cardenas were clear based on the discussion at Talk:Toyota Camry Hybrid. Conversely, none of the users that supported the merger were contacted: Stepho-wrs, Zunaid, Wfrmsf, Falcadore, Greglocock, Parent5446, Typ932, Bidgee, CZmarlin, ZacJ71, NichlausRN, Mr.choppers and myself.

Nlu, one of the editors canvassed during the Camry Hybrid discussion only had "mild opposition" so he was not contacted either as his vote would likely go to the supports of the merge this time for the Elantra LPI Hybrid. I am basing this on his previous assertion that, "I understand the point of doing so, but doing so eliminates useful information. This is not a situation where the hybrid article is really only a couple paragraphs and would be completely duplicative."

So Ebikeguy and Mariordo, I am giving you two options:

• 1) You can withdraw the canvassed votes from the discussion;
• 2) Or, you can leave the canvassed votes in tact.

If you decide to choose the latter option, I will contacting all other parties (both supporters and opposers) involved in the Camry Hybrid discussion (except those who have already voted or have been contacted already). It would be in your best interest to pick the first option because it is only two votes. OSX (talk • contributions) 03:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

OSX I'm sorry, but that's a pretty clear threat of biased canvassing that YOU'RE making by publishing a list of demands. I suggest you stop and continue to debate whether Mariodro was canvassing before you find yourself in a spot that is impossible to defend. Your argument loses a lot of credibility when you behave this way.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 05:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have already demonstrated that Mariordo violated WP:CANVASS. He contacted Johnfos, North wiki, Ebikeguy, and Daniel.Cardenas—all supporters of the Camry Hybrid merger—and did not contact anyone else.

Inappropriate notification in violation of WP:CANVASS can involve, "posting messages to groups of users selected on the basis of their known opinions – for example, sending notifications only to those who supported a particular viewpoint in a previous discussion".

Your opinion of the credibility of my argument is of little concern to me. But since it is becoming apparent to me that canvassing support in discussions is now acceptable behaviour, maybe I should not feel so reluctant to participate in it myself (I have said that I will be contacting all involved editors, which is not canvassing in its own right). Ebikeguy, you have urged me not to do this. As a return, I urge you to withdraw the canvassed votes. Sounds fair to me. OSX (talk • contributions) 06:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Request for community ban of Jimmy McDaniels

This user, Jimmy McDaniels (talk · contribs), after editing tendentiously from various IP addresses for many years, finally created an account and continues to edit tendentiously. The individual's behavior has demonstrated a clear conflict of interest with respect to the Jason Leopold article. Multiple editors have requested that this editor desist from editing the article and restrict himself to making suggestions on the talk page. However, the editor refuses to get the point, and the conversations about it tend to get rather surreal. Currently the article is protected, but the editor doesn't seem to get the spirit of cooperation and consensus necessary to participate in Misplaced Pages process, but seems to see Misplaced Pages as a battleground, gloating when he thinks another editor has made an "error", not really discussing but asserting, proposing unreliable sources to promote his opinions of the subject, etc., etc. All the facts are laid out ad nauseum at a recent RfC, Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Jimmy McDaniels, in which the editor received no support from anyone and multiple editors agreed he should not edit the article. Yet he still will not voluntarily agree to restrict himself to the talk page and continues to be combative on the talk page. As this is a long-running situation, which I've described in the RfC from 2008 but which actually goes back further, I believe it is time to have a serious discussion about whether a community ban might be appropriate. Yworo (talk) 05:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I was asked by this very user to create an account, which I did. When I started editing from this account and expanding the article as requested and providing additional material I was attacked, accused of being Jason Leopold and my edits reverted. This article is biased and the fact that it's protected and the neutrality of it questioned is an issue that should be of concern. In the past two weeks, since I created this account and started editing this article, I have abided by the policies and guidelines set forth and I request that you look at my editing history as an example. Yworo, however, seems to take issue with the fact that I am working to improve this article and that means providing context, balance and, yes, positive material to balance it out. The surreal nature of the discussion is certainly true but if you look at the discussion page of the article you will note that each time I suggest a link or an inclusion of new material I am attacked, accused of being Jason Leopold, a sock puppet and told the material I am trying to add is "resume padding." Look at the conversations surrounding the California Energy Crisis and Enron. I added material that was in line with Misplaced Pages policies and standards. Yworo routinely changed the material I was including, going so far as to remove it or revert it back without providing a legitimate reason. One time, Yworo said the link I provided was not working and reverted it back. I went in and fixed the link and readded the material in the Enron section and again was attacked and threatened for doing so. As I have stated dozens of times at this point, I would like to improve this article. That means expanding upon it and not make it one-sided. I would be perfectly happy to bow out of editing it if in fact Yworo was removed as well. Frankly, I think the conversations on the discussion page will illustrate the biases of many of the people who are working on it. The users do not need to like me, but I believe my contributions to this article, especially since I created an account have been important and within the guidelines. And I would like to continue contributing without fearing that each suggestion or citation I add or section I create is going to end up with me being attacked or accused of being the source.

I would like to note that there is an anonymous user who has been contributing to this article in the past few weeks: 69.17.54.2: that may be in the same vicinity I am: Los Angeles. I was accused of being every IP address that contributed "positive" material or tried to expand the article. But because the contributions and comments of this IP, as recently as Wednesday, have been negative with regard to the substance and content of the article, Yworo seems to be supportive of this user. Mind you this user has been making changes to this article since 2007 and those changes have been well outside wikipedia's policies and has not been asked to create an account, threatened with banning or complaints leveled. Is it because the IP's opinions about the subject of the article and Yworo's are in sync? I don't know. But I do find it curious. That is part of the surreal nature of the issues and discussions surrounding this article. It is not one sided. It's clearly complex. But I should not be the one who bears all of the blame. Jimmy McDaniels (talk) 06:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Finally, multiple editors have not requested that I, Jimmy McDaniels, refrain from editing this article. Yworo has. Jimmy McDaniels (talk) 06:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Please learn to indent. The requests are all over your previous IP address talk pages, on the talk page of the article, on the BLP noticeboard, etc. And there's a long section on your current talk page from Off2riorob, here. Yworo (talk) 06:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

i have also requested Jimmy refrain from editing the article and think its a real good idea, he has a massive WP:COI and is disruptive to the BLP when he edits it, this has been going on a length of time and also occurred at the Truthout article and the related AFD which was swimming with fishy socks. I can handle him on the talkpage but he should please stop editing the article. Off2riorob (talk) 11:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious, what is the conflict of interest? I've looked at the RFC and Talk:Jason Leopold and of course this ANI report, but I see nothing to suggest there's a COI. What connection does Jimmy have to Jason Leopold that would be a COI? He claims to be a fan, and he seems to have POV issues, but that doesn't constitute a conflict of interest. Being Leopold's relative or employee or PR person or something along those lines would. What am I missing? -- Atama頭 17:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

He has claimed multiple times to be Leopold's lawyer (four examples: , , , , and admits he did here), and nearly everyone ever involved believes he is Leopold himself. Besides his unintentional admission of identity with the IP editors, I believe I've thoroughly established continuity of identity in the RfC. Yworo (talk) 17:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

That's a pretty blatant COI then. I'd support a page ban enforcement of suggestions at WP:COI, restricting the editor's article edits to non-controversial edits and otherwise making talk page suggestions for content changes. I do see some constructive talk page input so I think such a ban would permit the editor to contribute while at the same time prevent further disruption. -- Atama頭 18:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that would help a lot and as you say, still allow him to contribute as he does have some input that is beneficial to content. Off2riorob (talk) 18:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I would love to see him voluntarily comply with this. If a topic ban is applied, I suspect we will simply see and have to deal with sockpuppetry. I could be wrong about that though... Yworo (talk) 18:58, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I have written a lengthy statement here on the edits and contributions I have made to this article over the past two weeks and I'd like to know why that is not being discussed. These edits and contributions have expanded the article. I have not done anything that violates policies or guidelines here. I was asked to sign up for an account, which I did and since then I have been very vocal about suggestions to help improve and expand this article. My edit history, since I signed up for the account, shows the value in my contributions and I again ask that they be looked at as well as the commentary I have made during the course of editing and on the discussion pages. This article needs to be improved. Twice the neutrality of it has been challenged and tagged as such. It asks to be expanded. The bottom line, once again is that attempts to improve or expand this article is unsupported. I do not have any relationship to the subject of the article whatsoever. Jimmy McDaniels (talk) 19:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

How many times do I need to say that I am not Leopold?? Stop suggesting that I am. The snarky comments that you continue to make are disturbing and underscores further bias. As I said above, I should not shoulder all of the blame. If there is a conflict of interest I believe Yworo now has one too because this is clearly becoming personal for him/her. Jimmy McDaniels (talk) 19:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Please address why you claimed to be Leopold's lawyer. And became offended that I referred to the IP address that did so as a "nutcase", self-identifying with the IP. If you continue to refuse to admit that it was you who repeatedly made this claim, and explain why you did so, there is no reason to believe anything else you might say. Yworo (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree, if you claimed to be his lawyer and now claim you aren't, you were being deceptive either now or then. This inconsistency doesn't engender trust. I deal with conflict of interest issues quite a bit (I hang out at WP:COIN) and it's not uncommon for an editor to claim some sort of connection in order to gain the upper hand in a content dispute, but it almost always comes back to bite them later. Editors with a conflict of interest are generally allowed to contribute until other editors object to their edits, in which case a topic ban isn't uncommon. I believe you're trying to have your cake and eat it too but it's not going to work, you've already let the cat out of the bag and your COI has already been established by your own words. It's too late to claim that you're uninvolved with the article subject at this point. -- Atama頭 21:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Two things. First, Yworo. It was clear from your "nutcase" comment that you were referring to me and the comment you left on my talk page saying as much would make that apparent to anyone. Your comment was directed toward me. You were playing a game of gotcha. As far as being Leopold's attorney I made a comment saying I was trying to be his attorney and I did see evidence of defamation and libel on this article and brought it to Leopold's attention. I never heard back from Leopold following my correspondence. The contributions I have made are valuable and the arguments I put forth are worthy of discussion. The discussions on the article page show the bias of some editors toward the subject matter. Arguably, that is in and of itself a conflict of interest if the editor is only interested in adding negative commentary to the article and does not even want to entertain the thought of balance or neutrality. Many of the editors, again, based on the discussion page, show deep disdain for the subject of the article: Leopold. To me, that is an issue that needs to be dealt with and one that at least one other editor agrees with. At the end of the day, that is what should be the topic of discussion regardless if I am here or not. This is the first thing that pops up on Google and therefore it should represent the most up to date and neutral point of view and material about the person. I would expect the same for every other article but editors do not seem to treat the entries of other media people the same. There is a real desire to make this one as negative as possible. Jimmy McDaniels (talk) 02:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

"Arguably, that is in and of itself a conflict of interest if the editor is only interested in adding negative commentary to the article and does not even want to entertain the thought of balance or neutrality." (Buzzer sound) Jimmy, you're likely "referring" to WP:NPOV; which cannot be achieved when an editor has a very serious conflict of interest. Much like one who is (at least) "trying" to be the attorney for the subject of the article. Editors are actively trying to make this article as "negative as possible"? See WP:Consensus. Cheers... Doc9871 (talk) 13:12, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

"I am Mr. Leopold's lawyer..." "I am Mr. Leopold's lawyer..." "I am Mr. Leopold's lawyer..."

That is not "a comment saying trying to be his attorney". That is saying you are his attorney. I think it would be a cut-and-dry COI if you had just said you are his attorney, but your actions could (could, not all may see it this way) be interpreted as editing beneficially on his behalf in order to gain favor with him. Hazardous Matt (talk) 13:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC) Still a conflict of interest anyway you look at it, though. Hazardous Matt (talk) 13:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It looks to me like we have consensus that a topic ban is in order here. Does anyone (besides Jimmy) object to this outcome? Yworo (talk) 14:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

If he's not Leopald's lawyer, he wants to be (as Jimmy has stated above) and can't be expected to abide by NPOV. I think topic bans get thrown about a bit too freely but this is clearly an example of why they exist. Hazardous Matt (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

• support - A topic ban on Jason Leopold and Truthout, talkpage discussion allowed. Off2riorob (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support - Per Off2RioRob's proposal. At least he can still try to contribute to the article without risking an NPOV edit. Hazardous Matt (talk) 19:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support topic ban due to the COI issues... Doc9871 (talk) 10:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support wasn't really involved though, apart from when I tried to stop Jimmy's IP edit warring with Regent, if he does get banned he will just use his IPs--Lerdthenerd (talk) 10:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support obviously, since I started this discussion. I agree that requesting a community ban was too severe and that a topic ban should be sufficient. Yworo (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

How do we go about closing this thread and notifying Jimmy of the decision? The protection on the article has expired so it would be a good idea for someone to do this soon. Obviously, it's not appropriate for me to do so. Yworo (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Block evasion, vote-stacking, ongoing vandalism

Hi, I need to ask someone to block two socks of IP 138.162.8.57 (talk) who was just blocked for the fifth time as a vandal. His two socks both !voted in one now-current AfD, they're both are in use to evade a current block, and one continues to vandalize.

Btw, apologies in advance if I've given too much detail here. I wasn't sure how much was appropriate; comments welcome on that.

IP 138.162.8.57 (talk) has been vandalizing for years. He's a prolific editor. Approximately 20% of edits have been obvious vandalism, another 10% subtle vandalism - like erroneously changing event dates by a few years, and the balance have been constructive or at least remotely-plausible-at-a-stretch, those having mostly to do with the United States Navy, with a conservative political preference - e.g. "Most Americans believe (Obama) isn't a a natural born citizen of the United States", and with various other subjects. A reverse IP lookup attributes the IP to the Naval Network Information Center (NNIC), with headquarters in Jacksonville, FL. This IP was blocked for the fourth time, on August 5th, for a week. It's my understanding that this branch of the NNIC provides internet access to most or all of Florida's Naval facilities.

After his fourth block expired on August 12th, IP 138.162.8.57 returned to editing August 18th, and his first edit back was vandalism, as were four out of his next ten edits, before he was blocked for a fifth time, for two weeks, beginning August 20, by Cirt.

IP 138.162.8.58 (talk) is an obvious sock of 138.162.8.57, that also should be blocked, as it's being used for block evasion and to !vote in Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Obama_first_family_vacations. A reverse IP lookup yields the same result as 138.162.8.57, and the two IPs have edited the same articles just minutes apart.. Although a little less vandalism has emanated from IP 138.162.8.58 (talk page warnings here) I found many other minutes-or-hours-apart edits made to the same articles by 138.162.8.58 and 138.162.8.57. Sometimes one would revert the other's vandalism - a pattern consistent with 138.162.8.57's occasional self-reverts of vandalism. Other times one IP would continue the other's vandalism of the same article.

The two IPs mentioned appear to represent a single user's work location with the U.S. Navy. I also strongly suspect IP 74.248.43.156 (talk) of being a home or alternate location for the same person. The reverse IP lookup for 74.248.43.156 identifies a BellSouth customer in Panama City, FL. In addition:

• There's a large U.S. Navy presence in Panama City, FL, including a Navy base, which would account for 138.162.8.5x as a "work" location, provisioned by the Navy Network Information Center.

• The Navy base in Panama City, FL, was founded as the U.S. Navy Mine Countermeasures Station, and it continues that mission. IP 74.248.43.156 is in Panama City, and by this edit he shows an interest in things Naval, and in one of the Navy's mine countermeasures squadrons in particular.

• IP 74.248.43.156 showed up just after IP 138.162.8.57 was blocked for the fourth time, and shows the same politically conservative tendency and interests in his brief editing career under that IP.

• In this edit IP 138.162.8.57 added a ref for this Panama City newspaper/web article to the Obama family vacations list. While not conclusive, it does indicate 138.162.8.57 has an awareness of Panama City events, as well as IP 74.248.43.156.

• IP 74.248.43.156 !voted the same way ("keep") in the same AfD that IP 138.162.8.58 did, viz. Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Obama_first_family_vacations.

This person, in one of his edit summaries under one of his IPs, did provide very specific information about his Navy assignment on a particular date that his "ISP", the Navy Network Information Center, could certainly use in conjunction with the personnel data they would have available to personally identify him. ( Saying this doesn't come anywhere close to wp:outing, btw, as the information is too general for anyone outside Navy personnel to ID him. ) If anyone wants to initiate a contact with the Navy under the auspices of Misplaced Pages:Abuse_response, however, including that information might be helpful. Contact me for more information about that, if desired.

Looking carefully through the history of the two IPs, 138.162.8.57 and 138.162.8.58, leads me to believe that they're quite stable, i.e. that they've both "belonged" to the same Navy employee for years. I personally think extending the existing two-week block on 138.162.8.57 to "indef" would be called for, even without this new evidence of block evasion and vote-stacking in an AfD, given that he has shown he has no interest in changing his behavior. I also think 138.162.8.58 needs an "indef" as an obvious sock and vandal, and that 74.248.43.156 is also quacking loudly-enough to merit the same indef as a sock being used for block evasion and vote-stacking. Thanks,  – OhioStandard (talk) 01:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good detective work, Ohiostandard. I take it there has been nothing taken to WP:SPI yet? Jusdafax 02:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Affirmative, Jusdafax. Nothing has been taken to the sockpuppet investigation page yet. Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a pretty clear case of WP:DUCK to me. If the 74.248 IP isn't the 138.162 editing from a different location then it's the meatiest meatpuppet ever. Burpelson AFB (talk) 03:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Thanks, Jusdafax! ( and Sjones23, and Burl ) No, nothing to SPI from me, anyway. I was (vain hope?) thinking it might be avoidable given that there are only IPs implicated, or "implicated so far", anyway. Nothing I'm aware of here that requires checkuser authority ... although I admit I don't necessarily understand how a check user process is run or what it comprises. Does it look for new named accounts coming from implicated IPs, too, even if they're not explicitly identified in an SPI submission? But don't answer that if you'd have to kill me after telling me. ;-) Don't want to open up the inner workings of the process too publicly, I mean. But no, no SPI thus far; I've never filed one before, although I'll probably have to in a wholly different matter in a couple of days. If an SPI is called for, and you or anyone else feels charitable, I'd be pleased to be able to avoid learning how to create one properly just now; as I need to go offline for a couple of hours, anyway. Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 03:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Seems to me like it might be more effective to drop a line to someone at NNIC to let them know that someone is using taxpayer money to vandalize our website and has been doing so for quite a while. ElKevbo (talk) 03:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah no kidding. You'd think the military would have more important things to do than troll and vandalize wikipedia. Burpelson AFB (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Considering that members of the US Congress and their staffs do the same thing, I doubt it. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 04:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Remember, this is the same U.S. Government who wants their FBI logo removed from Misplaced Pages. Which is probably in itself an overreaction to the embarassment caused by the Wikileaks incident, which has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. –MuZemike 05:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments and the suggestion re contacting NNIC, everyone, but for now ...

We still need an admin to block, please.  – OhioStandard (talk) 08:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Still needed. One obvious, vandalizing IP sock of an already blocked IP. Another probable IP sock. Thanks,  – OhioStandard (talk) 10:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Cirt blocked one, I blocked the other. Blocked for a fortnight. Fences&Windows 23:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

110.20.34.7, 110.20.11.94 and 110.20.55.15

These three users, who I suspect are the same person, are making numerous inflammatory remarks on the Mathematics reference desk. I request that they be blocked.--220.253.222.146 (talk) 04:56, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

That IP apologized afterwards. Materialscientist (talk) 05:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Continued later as other IPs, such as: 110.20.1.146, 110.20.2.147, 114.72.202.2, and 114.72.218.253. David Biddulph (talk) 11:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This user is extremely disruptive. He continues posting personal attacks (e.g. , ). He impersonates other users in his signatures (, which caused someone to be accidentally blocked) and is removing information that can be used to deal with him ().

He is using IP ranges 114.72.191-255.* and 110.20.0-63.*. Please block those before things get out of hand. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 12:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I see this is also discussed two threads below, I've copied most of my post there. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 12:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Problematic edits to the Julian Assange article

I reported this on the WP:BLPN page, but due to the high profile of the Julian Assange article, I thought it ought to be bumped here. There are new edits conerning claims that an arrest warrant has been issued against him in Sweden. I won't go into details here. The edit is sourced to a Swedish site, and since I don't speak Swedish and can't find any English language sources, I thought it might be best to bring it here. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 05:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The source looks 'legit enough' and the contents do confirm that he was arrested in absentia over rape allegations from 2 women. Anything beyond that is up to the editors involved, personally, in this case, I would probably lean towards WP:NOTNEWS. un☯mi 05:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

My knowledge of Swedish didn't allow me to verify the source. Is it a credible one? I erred on the safe side per BLP and reverted the edit. The rest can be decided at the article talk, and my own feeling is err on the side of leaving it out unless/until more sources can be found. --John (talk) 05:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, Expressen could probably be aptly described as a sensationalist newspaper, I don't think that they would "make it up" but on the other hand it is not clear how well the story checks out. They claim to have spoken with the prosecutors office who have confirmed that the arrest warrant was issued. I agree that we should probably hold off until other sources pick it up, which should be "anytime now" if it seems to check out. un☯mi 06:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is a classic WP:BLP and WP:NOTNEWS violation: There is one media outlet with a highly unlikely story of rape: "The women victims did not want to press charges against Assange, fearing his position of power." But how could an Australian journalist have a "position of power" in relation to two women he allegedly met while on a lecture tour of Sweden? Then there are other news sources parroting the first, and Misplaced Pages has an article confidently asserting "An arrest warrant for Julian Assange was issued by Swedish police", while for balance, the article later says "Assange states: '... I have not been contacted by the police'". In 24 hours we should know if an arrest order has been made. Meanwhile, the speculation should be removed. Johnuniq (talk) 09:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The arrest order is a reliable fact, independently verified by other news sources. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 09:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is a BLP issue - it doesn't (yet..) require admin action - I'd encourage Everard to mark this resolved and we can discuss it on more relevant pages. --Errant Tmorton166 10:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

No, it wasn't a BLP issue. There were a ton of sources, including reliable sources which confirmed the arrest order was real. BLP doesn't state that we can't say anything bad about anyone. This BLP truncheon being used to find exceptional sources for any negative information about a person is getting tiresome.--Crossmr (talk) 01:19, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The arrest warrant appears to have been rescinded. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 22:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Dipso IP jumper

We have an IP jumper, who claims to be under the influence of strong drink, attacking Materialscientist. Is there basis for some range blocks or other remedies? Favonian (talk) 12:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like it's been handled. TNXMan 13:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

doc was also attacked, frankly just block all of his IP addresses till he sober.--Lerdthenerd (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

110 just posted another comment, he is still at large--Lerdthenerd (talk) 13:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, he "sort of" attacked me - I'll weep about it later, I'm sure. The most pertinent question is one he posed to me: "Is it possible to block someone who can continually change his IP address?". That's the question of the hour... Doc9871 (talk) 13:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

now 110 is posting his drunkern ramblings here at ANI board for incidents, he is also asking for bears (i assume he means more alcohol, someone block his new IP already--Lerdthenerd (talk) 13:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the process for disruptive trolling dynamic IP addresses is something like, IP block, IP block, IP block, range block (small as possible) block, revert contributions and ignore. Serious infractions can be reported to his service provider. Off2riorob (talk) 13:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Favion just blocked the latest IP address, hopefully this is the last we see of him--Lerdthenerd (talk) 13:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

If someone has a handy list of the IPs, I'll look into a rangeblock. TNXMan 13:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

he mentioned he was using a laptop , so far all the IPs 110 and one 114, we could block the entire pub for a week--Lerdthenerd (talk) 13:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I've put down two short rangeblocks: 110.20.0.0/18 and 114.72.192.0/18. -- zzuuzz 13:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Not quite. A rangeblock encompassing 110 and 114 (even if it were possible) would block up to 536870912 users, which is slightly larger than your average pub. TNXMan 13:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Both ranges resolve to the same ISP in Sydney, NSW. David Biddulph (talk) 14:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

block the ISP then, and tell the barman/maid to send their patrons home--Lerdthenerd (talk) 14:14, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

We can't be sure that he's at a pub, or even if he's actually drunk. It's not terribly likely, but this could hypothetically be a twelve-year-old Australian bug-"squisher" having a "giggle-fit" for all we know. He's certainly being very disruptive. It shouldn't be terribly difficult to figure out who this is, considering the subjects being edited. We'll see... Doc9871 (talk) 14:17, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Nota Bene: This guy is back to disrupting ANI by posting "apologies". I suggest a bigger rangeblock until he gets tired. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm serious. I regret my actions and I'm apologising to the people here. Please understand. I don't want to vandalise anymore nor do I want to disrupt the ANI. I just came here to apologise. I am sincere about this. If you don't believe me, fine, but at least don't block me. I am not doing any wrong by apologising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.20.26.196 (talk) 03:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll take this as resolved, in future don't edit wikipedia while drunk 110--Lerdthenerd (talk) 08:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No, this is most certainly not resolved. This user is extremely disruptive. He continues posting personal attacks (e.g. , ), and removing information that can be used to deal with him ().

It's clear that his stories about being drunk and his "apologies" should not be taken seriously.

He is using IP ranges 114.72.191-255.* and 110.20.0-63.*. Please block those before things get out of hand. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 12:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

They were blocked a couple of hours ago. -- zzuuzz 13:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Jiujitsuguy and Eric1985 blocked indefinitely for off-wiki canvassing regarding Israel/Palestine

This is going to be a tough one, so bear with me. Today, I blocked Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs) and Eric1985 (talk · contribs) for two independent incidents in which they have been inciting people, through off-Misplaced Pages blogs, websites, and political magazines, to come to Misplaced Pages to correct what they believe is an anti-Israel bias on Misplaced Pages. I received evidence about their actions via e-mails from two separate editors, following a thread at WP:AE. In the case of Jiujitsuguy, I can't really point to the specific websites I'm talking about because they include his real name. In the case of Eric1985, the actions come from a website called WikiBias (the writer intentionally omits his name there); once again, though, I can't explain how the connection to this website was made because it includes exposing personal information.

You can see for yourselves the nature of WikiBias. It's not heavy on personal attacks and he also seems to caution potential recruits about violating Misplaced Pages's policies (noting what sockpuppetry, edit-warring, and the concept of NPOV are). However, the website is a clear violation of WP:MEAT, not merely expressing his views about Misplaced Pages in a general manner, but repeatedly pointing editors to discussions and asking them to participate in them (e.g. "View the discussion on the move, and chime in with your opinion if appropriate, on the discussion page." ). He also has a how-to guide that isn't just about getting started on Misplaced Pages, but rather about gaming the system.

With Jiujitsuguy, again, I can't post the particular websites, but it's more of the same. He's less systematic than WikiBias -- he's only got a couple of articles on various websites advocating disruptive behavior -- but his rhetoric is far more inappropriate, referring to Wikipedians as, for example, Islamofascists. Again, he provides a how-to guide for gaming the system on Misplaced Pages, with the intent to push his agenda. Further, Jiujitsuguy has a very colorful history on Misplaced Pages, one which -- trust me -- his block log doesn't fully express.

I'd like to get a review of the situation, but I'm not sure the evidence should be freely handed out to every single admin that requests it. Concurrent with this post, I have forwarded the evidence from Nableezy (talk · contribs) and Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs), the two editors who sent me e-mails, to ArbCom. But at the very least, the concept of this kind of off-wiki canvassing can be discussed here. During the ArbCom proceedings for the CAMERA debacle (May 2008), there was the conclusion that simply being a meatpuppet wasn't grounds alone for an indefinite block, and that one's on-wiki actions were paramount. But in both these situations, it wasn't that they were the meatpuppets; they were the meatpuppeteers. Still, some might argue that these blog posts are outside of our interest, as people are free to hold whatever positions and opinions in real life. Surely, many of the editors in the Israel-Palestine area hold similarly firm views and may even be coordinating efforts over secret mailing lists.

However, I feel both of these cases are of very serious concern for Misplaced Pages. The Israel-Palestine area, as I'm sure you know, is still a minefield, with protections, bans, and blocks being doled out on a weekly basis and some bitter dispute always brewing (and the ArbCom proceedings of January 2008 not sufficiently putting an end to the nonsense there). I don't see any reason why editors who seek to bring additional agenda-driven editors to the equation should be permitted to edit in this area or, given the clear subversion of Misplaced Pages policies, anywhere else on Misplaced Pages.

Any and all remarks on the matter are welcome. -- tariqabjotu 18:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget this quote from Eric1985s Wikibias: "So, I have started this blog to publish the often hidden problems of the world’s free online encyclopedia. I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site." and his post at WP Israel: "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

On a side note, people might also want to note the wingnut that posted a comment on the blog post you just linked to, who seems to be hosting training conferences for Zionist Misplaced Pages editors ... -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 20:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I saw the blocks and the report at WP:AE earlier. I believe that, assuming the blocked editors are responsible for what you say they are responsible for, then the blocks are within the terms of the WP:ARBPIA discretionary sanctions. However, rather than relying purely on your own judgement, I think your best course of action is to submit all the evidence you have to the Arbitration Committee for review. CIreland (talk) 18:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I forwarded the evidence to ArbCom at the same time I made this post. I fixed a typographical error to clarify that. -- tariqabjotu 18:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Excellent work to protect the wiki. I applaud your blocks. Binksternet (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is not directly related to the case above, but it is relevant. Perhaps ARBCOM and Misplaced Pages in general should, in the future, investigate if certain articles and areas should be restricted to edits made by a some sort of "board" comprised of appointed or elected individuals. While this goes against the mantra of "an encyclopedia that anyone can edit", its blatently obvious that the current system has failed and attempts to "fix" it are only met by abuse of the system. ARBCOM rules are routinely circumvented, and enforcement of the rules are not consistent; that is to say, we currently have editors who have stated its their mission to bring for "such and such truth" to the situation, when in reality they are just battlefield warriors intent on making sure their own position reigns supreme (with numerous blocks, bans, etc..etc to their edit history). Assume Good Faith editing has failed, and while it is a main tenant of Misplaced Pages, its being used as a tool to promote agendas and can potentially open the door for all sorts of liabilities. --nsaum75 19:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

This is actually an area where I had hoped that sighted edits/flagged revisions would be useful. The higher level of protection would mean that you and I and other users who have been around for a long time without getting banned or blocked can edit the articles without problem; constructive contributions by new users and IPs can get through after a little while; and trouble making socks don't get their material through without it being reversed without getting its publicity. In order to get to put stuff in directly, the sockpuppeteers would actually have to do a substantial number of constructive edits over an extended period of time which should mean that Misplaced Pages gets some useful work out of them before they can go to town with their POV-pushing.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Seeking other editors is acceptable. Unfortunately, Jiujitsuguy did word it in a way that was asking for some inappropriate covert tactics. I think a indefinite is a little harsh but do understand how big of a concern it was.

I still believe Nableezy outing Jiujitsuguy on a forum related to all this terrible in a completely different way. It was not his place to do that. That could have led to harassment or something even worse. And he shouldn't have mentioned it on Misplaced Pages since it came across like he was asking people to dig out the information.

Hopefully we can put this situation behind us. If Jiujitsuguy does come back way down the road and request reinstatement it should be considered and watched closely.Cptnono (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I still believe Nableezy outing Jiujitsuguy on a forum... He did no such thing. Not here, not anywhere. I never suggested he did, and I don't think Nableezy has either. -- tariqabjotu 22:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes he did. I'm not the only one who has commented on this.Cptnono (talk) 16:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No I have not. Such a serious charge should not be made without evidence and repeating it without evidence should result in a block. nableezy - 21:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You most certainly have, and you are aware of this fact, so your denials ring hollow. Enigma 03:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom Amendment?

I started to write an Arb amendment request and I still think that may be what's needed to deal with this. I think there's a number of troubling aspects about the situation:

1. You have the WP:ARBPIA decision and discretionary sanctions which were put in place to help control these types of disputes. It has clear guidance for admins on how to deal with these disputes (though It's debatable about how effective they are given the repetition of names on the log).
2. You have the WP:CAMERA decision (note: any reference I make to CAMERA is to the decision and not the organization) which is almost an extension of ARBPIA. Here it clearly covers the topic of canvassing and in this case it was on ARBPIA articles. However, CAMERA did not put forth guidance or discretionary sanctions like ARBPIA did and it doesn't offer much direction on how to handle the very sensitive issue of reviewing the outside wiki evidence. You get into issues of WP:OUTING so you can't really make it public but if it's not public then how do you determine who gets it and who reviews it? CAMERA says to bring it to Arbcom but I don't know if that is practical.
3. I have a growing concern of witch-hunts. Those who bring these accusations of off-wiki canvassing may not have the purest of motivations themselves. In this case those involved have consumed many admin resources themselves with warnings, bans and blocks for ARBPIA violations.

I think going to Arbcom requesting some guidance is what's in order. I think the CAMERA principles of dealing with external groups and collective guilt should be added to ARBPIA. This would bring those actions under the same process of sanctions. Then a method of dealing with off-wiki evidence should be set up and I think that's something Arbcom needs to facilitate given the sensitive nature of it. Perhaps a workgroup with a mailing list solely for that issue.

All in all I think you did the best you could with the guidance we've been given Tariq. I am a bit concerned we may be condemning by association or condemning for off-wiki acts without corresponding evidence of an organized campaign on wiki. --WGFinley (talk) 19:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

In addition to the CAMERA Arbcom case, I think the more recent WP:EEML case is also relevant to the issue of off-wiki actions. CIreland (talk) 19:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised by Tariqajotu's actions. First, I think he should have given the editors in question the opportunity to defend themselves. Second, if he was minded to do it, he should have consulted with other admins. Third of all, if he did do it, the thing to do is allow for actual review of his actions here, rather than shove it upstairs to ArbCom. I see no difference waiting a few hours would have made. Frankly, if we're dealing with off-wiki actions, I'm a lot more concerned with Nableezy's alleged outing of another editor. In response to Tariqajotu's offer to email the evidence to any admin, I do so request.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Where did Nableezy out another editor? Diff please? All I can see is his comment "There is unambiguous proof that Jiujitsuguy has violated WP:MEAT several times, though that proof requires linking to sites which contain his real name so I cant do that here." That seems to me like an explicit refusal to out another editor. The allegation that he outed another editor appears baseless, and should be withdrawn.RolandR (talk) 20:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Read the thread. I did not say it was on wiki. Apparently it was in a forum. Since I have not yet seen it (Tariq has not yet responded to my request for the evidence), I have added the word "alleged".--Wehwalt (talk) 20:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

What editors (allegedly) do off-wiki is none of our concern. Are you proposing to start investigating and taking action against the many people (some of them apparently Misplaced Pages editors) who have identified and denounced me in countless forums? RolandR (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It is when they're essentially saying: "Hey, let's cause shit on Misplaced Pages, but make sure they don't catch you: here's how..." HalfShadow 20:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah so. Does that apply to Jujitsuguy and Eric1985? If so, I suggest you remonstrate with Tariq, he's your go to guy on this. I have not proposed taking action about anyone, I have asked for more information and suggested fuller investigation of the circumstances. Something wrong with that?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

But the allegation against them is not that they made comments off-wiki, but that they were actively seeking to recruit and guide people to edit Misplaced Pages in a tendentious manner. In the absence of any evidence, it is unacceptable to make such an accusation against Nableezy. RolandR (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but the alleged actions took place off-wiki, and you just said what people do off wiki is none of our business.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Members of the community who may have information regarding similar efforts by external groups to unduly influence our content are urged to forward that information to the Committee for review. -quote from ArbCom in the CAMERA case. The commitee is responsible for determining who did/didn't do what others accuse, Phearson (talk) 20:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, and that's just it. I have no opinion on whether it is a good or poor block yet, Tariq has not yet sent me the evidence as I requested following his kind offer to all admins. I am however very concerned by the procedure here.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, you seem awfully aggressive about this. I have a life; it's not a crime to not respond to you within two hours. You don't need to repeat in every post that you are waiting for me to respond to your request to forward you the e-mails. In that time, I wish you had reread what I said, because I did not offer to send the evidence to all admins. What I said was "I'm not sure the evidence should be freely handed out to every single admin that requests it." -- tariqabjotu 22:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Why the need to involve ArbCom here? I think we are quite able to discuss a principle of "If you are found to be organising a large-scale campaign to undermine the neutrality of the project, you may be indefinitely blocked" just fine on our own. I don't see much opposition to Tariq's action, or why advocacy of this type is beyond our ability to deal with; generally speaking, the impulse to run to ArbCom at the first sign of drama is a worrying indication of creeping paternalism. Skomorokh 20:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, Tariq sent it there concurrently with his action. It might actually be wise to let them handle it in this case, if they are willing, as it is hard to judge Tariq's action without the evidence (still waiting) and so then then there would have to be a process of sending the info to admins who want to participate in the discussion. ArbCom has confidential listservs and other resources that we don't have.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good points all, but I think there is enough publicly available information in this instance to make a call that does not rely on private correspondence; my main concern however is that the policy aspect of this is reflexively booted to the Committee without an attempt at hammering something out first. Skomorokh 21:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a suggested starting point for the discussion?--Wehwalt (talk) 21:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It appears that you are coming very close to imposing a ban on off-wiki criticism by WP users. I suppose that you guys can do that if you choose, but the description control freak comes to mind. If you choose to prohibit these things, it will not change anything for the better more than have past arbcom decisions on I/P issues. Can anyone who proposes these restrictions show that past restrictions have benefited WP by improving I/P articles, or talk page discussion? Simple observation indicates the answer is no. Just lots of WP users (on both sides of the issue) blocked over the years, without any improvements to show for it. 173.52.134.182 (talk) 21:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem isn't that he expressed opinions about Misplaced Pages or even about deficiencies. In my initial comment, I tried to contrast the acts of these two people with what would have been okay. An article on how to join Misplaced Pages and some information about how it works and its policies is okay; an article on how to game the system is not. An article talking generally about perceived biases on Misplaced Pages is okay, but an article specifically telling people to chime in on a particular discussion so they vote a particular way is not okay. In this area, many people's political positions have come out in their comments on talk pages, and they have not been penalized for them, even if the existence of them inevitably leads to battlegrounds. We can't prohibit people who have some opinion on this conflict -- many people do, in one way or another -- but we can prohibit disruptive actions. And meatpuppetry, which is what this is, is clearly disruptive. -- tariqabjotu 23:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Did they ask people to vote a certain way in discussions? And btw, you were going to provide evidence, I'd be grateful for a copy.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems a control freak approach. Not to mention thought control. But all the trials I see occurring in the USA, of those accused of 'conspiracy' (essentially the accusation here too), strikes me as punishing those who might have bad thoughts, but have not actually done anything wrong. You have punished those you think have bad intentions, even though you may not be able to prove they have actually done more than talk. I am sure your intent is good, but think what you have done is more problematic than what those you call meatpuppets have done. 173.52.134.182 (talk) 23:18, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I haven't called anyone anything. And that word "meetpuppet" is being thrown around awfully loosely here.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, you can read WikiBias yourself and make your own judgment, but yes, essentially, yes. If someone were to post this kind of comment on someone's talk page here, it would be unacceptable, as it's clearly intended to sway someone's vote a certain way. Also, I am not forwarding you the e-mails. -- tariqabjotu 23:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it meatpuppet is essentially an accusation of conspiracy against WP. But can an act be proved, or is the accusation just that there seems to be what might be a bad thought? 173.52.134.182 (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. The individual, if it is one of those blocked, which has yet to be proved (and it seems evidence will not be forthcoming to support the allegation) gave his opinion, and then wrote "View the discussion on the move, and chime in with your opinion if appropriate, on the discussion page." I do not see the problem. Is this Wikibias web site only frequented by those sharing the views set forth in the post? And as this discussion seems to be going nowhere, it would be nice if some arb would let us know if the committee is considering this, or not. I am frankly very troubled by the utter lack of opportunity to respond to what was clearly not an emergency situation.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well Eric has already said it himself as posted above:"So, I have started this blog to publish the often hidden problems of the world’s free online encyclopedia. I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site." and his post at WP Israel: "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts." .. He has also called some Misplaced Pages users "anti-Semites" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Called them anti-Semites, hmmm? Sounds to me the focus of argument is shifting. He is free to call anyone anything he wants, off the wiki. Come on. I've probably been called a few choice things in my time by other Wikipedians! But off the wiki, it is no harm no foul.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

What shift? "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts" What is this? Explain this to me. "I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site" In that entire blog he is wikistalking me and presenting his biased opinion and pushes his pov about my and other peoples edits and then redirects his followers to the talkpage and gives them a guide on how to game the system --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know it is the same guy. How can he wikistalk you off wiki anyway? The mind boggles!--Wehwalt (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Game the system"!? It's a guide on how to not get banned, which includes recommendations such as: don't edit just one controversial topic, don't edit-war, keep cool and civil. How is that "gaming the system"? --OpenFuture (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, I've got other things to do. I can't tell if this is a good block or not, but I am appalled by the procedure. I urge Arbcom to step in.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In my view, it's about gaming the systems because it gives advise how to act in a way that improves the chances of having edits stay in the encyclopedia that would otherwise be deleted, and to create the appearance of being a encyclopedia-oriented editor, while actually staying ultimately focused on the partisan agenda.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course with CAMERA we also had the Wikipedians for Palestine group, which never saw any consequences and for which no one was ever investigated. It is obvious that the CAMERA group and these pro-Israeli groups were simply more niave than the Wikipedians for Palestine. At the time of CAMERA, WfP was a secret group of about 12 members, whose membership was sanctioned by requirement of Wiki-name and evidence of acceptable edits. *This group disbanded almost immediately upon discovery. As far as we know, these 12 undiscovered members are still right here at Misplaced Pages (in whatever capacity). There is no reason to think they are not. It is also forgotten by many that the mailing list was brought forward by a Misplaced Pages editor who was also an employee of Electronic Intifada, who has since changed his name. If you can't act in a fair and evenhanded way across the I-P conflict area, you should do nothing. 66.186.163.30 (talk) 01:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Not having access to any of the evidence against JJG and Eric, I will take Tariq at his word with regards to the nature of the evidence against them, though I am disappointed by his refusal to provide the evidence to administrators who asked for it. With regards to the publicly available information, I must say I am underwhelmed by the nature of evidence brought forth against Wikibias. I do not share the characterization of the how-to guide as a guide to 'gaming the system' - is seems like a straightforward guide for new users, providing tips on avoiding disruptive actions that may lead to blocks. I also fail to see a big difference between Wikibias, and a site such as Misplaced Pages Review, where multiple Wikpedia editors (including administrators) regularly participate. That site, too, has wiki editors calling upon other editors to edit Wiki articles in a manner that could be described as recruiting meatpuppets - see this as one such example. HupHollandHup (talk) 02:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Question - I would like to know why Jiujitsuguy's off wiki activity produced no action when it was reported to the functionaries list/oversight team by nableezy in July but resulted in a 1 year block when reported at AE. nableezy was told to contact the oversight team. He did that. Nothing happened. I want to know why. This seems like an important matter to me. The lack of action by the oversight team after that report and lack of clarity on these off wiki issues (together with some email discussions I had with Jiujitsuguy about these matters) played a large part in my decision not to pursue the matter myself. Apparently, assuming that the 1 year block is the right decision, I made the wrong decision to not follow up on the report based largely on an assumption that the oversight team would act if action was necessary. Something has gone wrong somewhere. It would be good to know what went wrong, why and do something about it. Inconsistency in the I-P conflict area isn't helping. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this is the answer you're looking for, but maybe the Oversight saw noting egregious that was worth following up on.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps but I would expect them to say that if that is what they decided. Having seen all the evidence that isn't Wikibias related it wasn't until I saw new evidence that I decided to take the matter up directly with nableezy and Jiujitsuguy. Even with all the evidence there is, in my view, a lack of clarity on how policy applies. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Question 2:

Has anyone thought of simply asking the editors under question to cease whatever they are doing wrong?

Like everyone else here, I don't the extent of the evidence against the two editors, but a basic perusal of Wikibias.com does not reveal any blatant meatpuppetry or policy dogding. If anything, how-to-guide is a pretty good instruction manual for editing Misplaced Pages and should perhaps be incorporated wikipedia's how-to pages.

The unilateral and drastic nature of user:Tariqabjotu's blocks are certainly questionable, at best, as noted above by User: Wehwalta and other editors.

I also note the inconsistency with how other alleged meatpuppetry groups are treated. As noted above, Wikipedians for Palestine is ignored. See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive557#Facebook event to recruit Arab and Muslim editors to contribute to the Gaza War articl, where zero action was taken.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

But I really have one question that nobody seems to be discussing. Why can't we just ask the editors to stop doing whatever they are doing wrong? What's with our obsession with blocks and bans?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Brewcrewer and the one real question here is why Tariq chose to block indefinitely when ArbCom has seen the same information and chose not to act? Poor judgment to go ahead and block without first seeking input on a issue he had to know would be contentious. Enigma 03:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry is a serious offence and experienced users like Juijitsu have no excuse if that is what they have been engaged in. Since I have not seen all the evidence, I won't make a judgement, but for a clear case of meatpuppetry by an experienced user that would certainly be grounds for an extended ban in my view. Gatoclass (talk) 08:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The relentless efforts of outfits such as the Jewish Internet Defense Force to alter the fundamental tenets of fairness on Misplaced Pages makes any organized offsite meatpuppetry unacceptable. Meatpuppetry in defense of an article on a fictional character at AfD pales in comparison. Abductive (reasoning) 09:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything sinister about a "how-to-guide." "Don't edit war," "Keep your cool," "Do not accuse editors of bath faith..." I'm sorry but this does not look like gaming the system. Also, how do we know the editors behind this scandal are Eric and Jiujitsuguy? No mention of wikibias is made by either, it seems the administrator made the inference. An indefinite block should require more concrete evidence. Since there really isn't an historic precedent for something like this, and clearly it is a big problem - I don't understand why the admin made a block unilaterally. I also think the offending editors should be given a forum to defend themselves, why they haven't is suspect. I imagine many editors here are afraid to say anything for fear of being lumped into the wikibias movement. I don't blame em'...Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There is concrete evidence, but I'm not going to present their personal information publicly to show it to you. Obviously, they're not going to say "Oh, I edit this site" on the user page, because they know it's a problem. The author of WikiBias, who, again, I'm sure is Eric, says the same on the website. You quotes of that page are highly selective. Here are some others:

• "So you want to become a Misplaced Pages editor and join the fight for truth and fairness? Excellent, we are looking for a few good men (and some great women)." Not even hiding the fact that he treats Misplaced Pages like a battleground; he's even using a battleground metaphor.
• "A simple piece of accurate information works. Just add it. Don’t use a proper footnote, genuinely new users rarely do." He could just tell people how references should be written, but he doesn't. He wants people to feign ignorance on how to edit properly, so they don't appear as meatpuppets, people instructed to come to Misplaced Pages for some purpose.
• "Sooner or later you will notice that something that you regard as a simple fact, like the fact that Mt. Hermon is located in Israel, will be deleted by an editor who doesn’t agree with your worldview." He knows his audience.
• "Keep in mind that there have been lengthy edit was over the monumentally trivial topic of hummus. An edit war can break out on any topic at any time. Some anti-Israel editors will start an edit war with a pro-Israel user with the intention of making the pro-Israel editor so angry that he will do something stupid and get himself banned." Right. And this is why he advises against edit-warring and accusing others of bad faith. Blocked and banned users can't win content disputes.
• "While you are making a lot of effective edits, the anti-Israel gangs may take it to the next level." Again, he knows his audience. It doesn't matter if he, in reality, gets readers from across the political spectrum; the point is he intends to bring people to Misplaced Pages solely to advance his pro-Israel agenda.

Frankly, I'm not sure what's unclear about this. The fact that he may not be the leader of an influential organization shouldn't matter. The intent is still there, and the effects are impossible to measure. We shouldn't be sending the message that it's okay, so long as your website isn't very popular, or it's okay, unless we can prove that people are following your commands. -- tariqabjotu 11:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Tips and suggestions on how to avoid getting banned is not illegal nor against policy. Reference to Mt. Hermon is irrelevant, if anything it is positive because it tells article x is an article that is often vandalized, watch out for it. We have wikipedia projects that do the exact same thing. The comment about hummus is accurate, editors do often bait other users with differing POVs into an edit-war, often stirring up the pot and provoking conflict, then editors go to enforcement boards to get their opponents banned. It happens all the time around here. The only real problem with the guide is the 1st bulletin, telling users that "we're looking for a few good men." But this isn't the same thing as meatpuppetry, you inferred there is some conspiracy going within wikibias, grouping like-minded editors to attack articles that aren't considered pro-israel. I see no evidence to support such a conclusion - you made this inference. I'm not defending wikibias, but you are exaggerating the crime. IMO I don't see anything wrong with referring users to articles that are problematic, even if it might have a pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian slant. We have wikiprojects that group articles based on their quality class, and alert fellow members of problems and issues that should be corrected. This isn't 1984, we don't know his "intent" other than your own interpretation. For all we know wikibias was created in good-faith. I'd imagine most meat puppetry occurs behind the scenes, in a private yahoo group or something less obvious as "wikibias." Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break

I imagine that at this point arbcom or an otherwise select group have the evidence in question and is reviewing. For obvious reasons most of us will not be able to review the evidence or make any particularly insightful comments about it. un☯mi 10:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've not seen the evidence, but I trust Tariqabjotu to evaluate it competently. Under the assumption that the evidence linking these editors to offsite meatpuppetry activities holds up, therefore (and they do not appear to deny that it does), I entirely endorse the indefinite block. Engaging in covert and systematic activities to make others edit this site according to a particular POV is incompatible with the position of editor of a neutral encyclopedia, whether in the I-P conflict area or elsewhere.  Sandstein  11:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I would again like to remind people that the Wikibias website is the sum of the meatpuppetry I'm talking about. You can look at the website and comment on whether you believe the person running the site should be indefinitely blocked (even if you don't yet believe Eric is behind that). It is merely how I know it's him that I'm not publicly sharing, because it requires exposing personal information.

I would love to share the evidence with more people, but I don't want to step on ArbCom's toes. I've specifically asked them whether it is okay to send the evidence to any admin who wants it, but they have not responded yet. I'd prefer to wait until they do, and I hope they allow me to do so (or do so themselves), as it seems a large number of people are withholding judgment until they see it (even though I think Wikibias provides the basis behind the meatpuppetry I'm calling Eric out on). -- tariqabjotu 11:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I can share some of the content that is linked to Jiujitsguy, because it doesn't seem to show any personal information about him (the two other websites mention his real name). This comes from a website that I'm confident is owned by him. Once again, it's a guide to gaming the system. I'm confident he personally wrote it, considering it mirrors what was said in other articles clearly written by him (including one where he admits that he's Jiujitsguy on Misplaced Pages). -- tariqabjotu 11:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There are three problems that I think people are clouding people's views of your actions. First of all, yes, that you are withholding much of the evidence under which have handed out a severe penalty from fellow admins, who are given the function under ARBPIA of reviewing an AE block. Second of all, the Wikibias blog, while containing criticisms of Misplaced Pages, is facially neutral when asking people to look at the discussion. What you are saying is that by putting this up there, he's hinting what he wants. Maybe so. Facially neutral semi-canvassing goes on all the time on wiki. People ask other people directly on here to comment on an issue. That's considered acceptable, because of the fact they aren't actually asking for support, although they are, by posting at a friendly wikiproject say, really hoping for it. Even if someone went too far with that, the result would be a note asking someone to be more cautious. Third, you handed out an indef block as an arb enforcement sanction, and when it was pointed out to you that wasn't allowed, you said, OK, one year is the arb sanction, the rest is on me. That seems very result oriented to me. It strikes me that a far more balanced approach would be a request to take down the offending material, assuming identity was satisfied (and as I haven't seen the evidence, I cannot say that it has been. Note I do not accuse Tariq of bad faith, I merely say he is capable of being wrong, and would more readily trust a checkuser on this), was a block until the offending material was taken down. After all, your instant-reaction sanction has done nothing to stop the evil complained of. The blog, after all, is still out there, and the editors can sneak back with new IPs and names. I would rather see the blog down, if it is such a problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Since you seem to think it's so difficult to comment on these websites without seeing the proof of who ever is behind them, I'm tempted to just give the information to you (along with Sandstein and the couple other admins who have requested it) -- I'm not the only one who has seen it, for sure -- but your attitude is extremely abrasive. You can't even recognize why I might to wait until hearing back from ArbCom, even though you yourself said earlier I should have doled it over to them in the first place? What are you suggesting? That I should leave to ArbCom... and also just you? And yes, my explanation for the indefinite block despite the one-year piece on the ArbCom ruling was result-oriented. Why does it matter what it's called, whether it falls within the scope of the ArbCom decision or not? People hand out indefinite blocks for any number of reasons. I am entitled to do so as well. And what does checkuser have anything to do with this? There have been no allegations of sockpuppetry. -- tariqabjotu 12:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Even if the apparent intention of Wikibias is to sway results to one side, doing that on a publicly available blog can hardly be called (as Sandstein does call it) "covert". Since those on both sides have read the blog, the accusation of "meatpuppet" seems absurd. Not only is the accusation unsupported, it is unsupportable. Wikibias is just a blog where someone discusses what he/she thinks is wrong with WP in general, and a few articles in particular.

In my view the administrators responsible for indeffing the user (assumed) responsible for the Wikibias blog, without supplying any evidence that WP rules have been violated, should be desysoped. In that I see rules have been violated. 173.52.134.182 (talk) 11:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

(to Tariq)Please feel free to do so, if you feel inclined. Possibly you should have followed one of the above procedures I suggested. Possibly, since there was importance, but not actual urgency in the matter, you should have communicated with ArbCom immediately and let them handle it. I am also struck by your comment here where you dwell on the difficulties of someone else undoing your AE block. I believe in fairness to everyone here, possibly I have been overfair from time to time. But what I see is an admin hand-selected by parties to an AE (Yes, I saw the initial skepticism you stated), that admin acting quickly to block two editors without giving them the chance to respond, despite ARBPIA, which urges admins using AE sanctions under ARBPIA to consult, use blocks as last resorts, etc. The "secret evidence" is an issue, as it makes it impossible for anyone else to review the justice of the block, including the question of identity. I continue to express no opinion on the whether the block was warranted. The procedure I strongly denounce.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I mean, look at it like this: If you had gotten the email, and been convinced by it, what harm would have been done by either asking the editors in question for their views or just asking for advice from ArbCom or a member thereof? What harm would have been caused by waiting? I will put it this way. People are sufficiently annoyed about the reports out of Israel, in my view, that if this had been handled well, there would not have been one word of dissent.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

( Housekeeping: My comment below is out of temporal sequence because I originally top-posted, recognized the error, and couldn't insert it back into strictly correct temporal sequence because doing so would have interrupted the continuity of a discussion re meaning and indenting. This was the end-of-thread location when I placed it here. But I've evidently disrupted the space-time continuum! Sorry! - OhioStandard )

I want to express my thanks for the blocks you've made. We need people editing here who are willing and able to subordinate their own political beliefs to the higher goal of working cooperatively and openly to create a great educational resource for the benefit of the entire world. Those who come here to champion any particular political agenda just subvert that goal, and that damage is multiplied by orders of magnitude when they do it in covert groups organized for the purpose. I have nothing but respect for your decision to defend the encyclopedia.  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Many editors view Misplaced Pages as a battleground. This is very clear to anyone who was closely involved in any articles on Israeli-Arab conflict. I think it is very important to view this indefinite block (the wiki capital punishment) in this context. There is a wide range of behaviours of these 'warring' editors, and these two editors have been punished because they have been caught in action which apparently violates WP polcies. So the editors on the other side (who actually exlosed this behaviour) can claim temporary victory. It is possible that Tariq's actions have been technically correct and made in good faith. However they do ignore this wider picture of the battleground. I also recognise that Tariq is not some kind of god who can solve a fundamental problem of Misplaced Pages. But he needs to think if his actions are in the broader interests of Misplaced Pages. Just like in criminal law in many cases charges are only laid if it is 'in the public interest', even if the particular action is technically illegal. I also think the lack of consultation BEFORE the indefinite block is very surprsing and will inevitably be viewed as suspicious. Sincerely. - BorisG (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have now briefly reviewed the evidence, sent to me by Tariqabjotu. The evidence identifying Eric1985 (talk · contribs) as the author of http://wikibias.com is convincing and, in my opinion, sufficient to support the indefinite block. On the other hand, I am not absolutely certain that the evidence linking Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs) to various offwiki publications is compelling enough, and/or these offwiki publications problematic enough, to warrant an immediate indefinite block. While the evidence is substantial, and the offwiki publications are clearly of the "go forth and edit Misplaced Pages from a pro-Israel POV" sort, I am not sure that the border separating mere offwiki advocacy and exhortation from active offwiki coordination and meatpuppetry has been crossed. This would probably benefit from a more thorough discussion. The block may still be justifiable, but the situation is not entirely clear-cut and, as such, I think that a more thorough review of the case by the Arbitration Committee would be helpful.  Sandstein  13:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've also seen the evidence and agree with Sandstein's take. I still think we need to go to Arbcom for some clarification on how to act on it though. --WGFinley (talk) 17:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I note that User:Shuki has removed the block notices from both user's pages, claiming that Tariq has no authority to issue such blocks. I have asked them what they're playing at (though having the indefblock tag on the userpage is fairly trivial in itself). Black Kite (t) (c) 15:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I imagine it comes from my past involvement in the Israel-Palestine area (e.g. Israel and Jerusalem), but this has long been ignored by them, and basically everyone else in this area, until they don't like the action. Then they bring it up. I don't care about the talk page notices, so this angle of disputing the block. The block ought to be discussed on its own merits. -- tariqabjotu 18:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

After much digging, and without access to any evidence other editors may have collected, I was able to independently discover who Jiujitsuguy is. I've read the off-wiki material they've written, and while it's highly critical of Misplaced Pages, and extremely biased, I didn't see anything that warranted an indefinite block. Unless other editors found something more damning that the materials I myself did, I don't think anything harsher than an indefinite topic ban (on topics related to the Israel-Arab conflict) is called for. ← George 16:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Both blocks should be reverted. There was no urgency in blocking two users by an involved administrator. --Broccoli (talk) 16:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You need to re-read what involved means, none of your diffs constitute involvement. --WGFinley (talk) 17:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course all the differences I provided clearly demonstrate the involvement of the administrator in content disputes. He didn't revert vandalism. He reverted the edits and in the process changed the content of the articles in the area of the conflict. Broccoli (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that he shouldn't have reverted this? I think you have only skimmed the revision without looking at it closely at all. un☯mi 18:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Right, and the first edit was followed by this one. The third -- frankly, I don't even recall performing that edit -- but I'm confident it stems from the deficiencies of the pending revision system (is someone not approving an edit engaging in a content dispute?). Notice how I didn't follow up on any of the reverts you mention -- because I don't care about them. -- tariqabjotu 18:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've now spent almost two hours reviewing the three edits that tariqabjotu reverted, including following and reading all the refs that they introduced. Here's what I found about the three:

(1) Made by an obvious sock with only two edits in his history. First two changes it included contradicted the sources they ostensibly were based on. Third change was nowhere supported or even mentioned in the source. Fourth and fifth change were original research based on the editor's interpretation of the Law of the Sea. The sixth change introduced a section entitled "Israel's Stand" (sic.). That short section had some potential in that it cited a ref to a French news site that gave an account of the Israeli Prime Minister's statements to an Israeli commission formed to investigate the boarding of the Gaza aid ship. But its first sentence was garbled, the vertical spacing was off, and the section also was surrounded by original research. Further, the editor misrepresented the French article's title in filling out the "cite news" details in such a way as to give a false impression. The seventh change introduced a new section about rockets fired into Israel. That content could be useful elsewhere, but it was entirely out-of-place to introduce it into this Gaza flotilla article.

(2) Pure racist vandalism. Anti-semitic crap calling Israelis "pigs", etc.

(3) Consisted of four simple factual errors introduced by an account with just two edits.

@Broccoli: did you mean to suggest that tariqabjotu is "involved" in a biased or negative way? If so, the three reverts you cite demonstrate precisely the opposite. They show a diligent editor just doing his job. Any responsible, neutral editor would have done exactly the same thing with these three edits. Disagree with him if you like, by all means, but you owe him an apology for introducing these three reverts as evidence of any improper motives or involvment.  – OhioStandard (talk) 19:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Well the differences speak for themselves. One will never find something like that by Sandstien for example. The fact you did not follow up on your reverts does not really matter. You are involved in editing the articles and you should not have blocked two users. There was no immediate threat to Misplaced Pages by any of them. The blocks should be lifted.-Broccoli (talk) 02:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Application of EEML

Per another editor's suggestion I went and looked at the more recent EEML case and it has the following: (bolds are mine)

Off-wiki conduct

11) A user's conduct outside of Misplaced Pages, including participation in websites or mailing lists in which Misplaced Pages or its contributors are discussed, is generally not subject to Misplaced Pages policies or sanctions, except in extraordinary circumstances such as those involving grave acts of overt and persistent harassment or threats or other serious misconduct. The factors to be evaluated in deciding whether off-wiki conduct may be sanctioned on-wiki include whether the off-wiki conduct was intended to, and did, have a direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia or on members of the community.

Passed 8 to 0 with 1 abstention at 17:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Having reviewed the evidence I'm not sure if the action of either of the editors meets the level of the bans imposed because I'm not certain we've established a "direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia or on members of the community." Thoughts? --WGFinley (talk) 17:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

From what has been made public, I agree, and would unblock, my opinion subject to what is disclosed down the line. I believe ArbComm's language to mean conduct that almost rises to abetting harrassment, such as posting sensitive personal information, such as their phone number. At worst, this was hoping his readers would help him out. He could have tossed a message in a bottle with about equal effect.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If the Wikibias website is indeed the work of Eric1985 (and it appears that it is) then an indefinite block is absolutely correct. Having not seen the evidence on Jiujitsuguy, then I cannot make a judgement on them. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Grave acts of overt and persistent harassment... -- No, I don't think so. But direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia -- I certainly think in the case of WikiBias, that is the case, unless the ruling is saying that the conduct must have both the intended effect and the actual effect (as the former exists, while the latter does not necessarily). Regarding the websites pertaining to Jiujitsuguy, it is less so the case; it was less systematic. In Jiujitsuguy's case, though, his past conduct on Misplaced Pages did come to mind when blocking him. -- tariqabjotu 17:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Wikibias website constitutes, or describes, the sort of serious misconduct the EEML decision outlines. Whether this is also the case with Jiujitsuguy is considerably less clear to me. This requires closer review, which ArbCom is best qualified to do (either sua sponte or on appeal).  Sandstein  19:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

A "direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia" is relevant for what Eric did. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In what way?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Reading the Wikibias website should answer that question very simply. Linking to discussion pages and suggesting that people chime in there (i.e. canvassing); repeatedly referring to other editors (and naming them) as anti-Semites and racists; a "how-to" guide on how to appear to be a "good Wikipedian" by inflating your edit-count in non-controversial area before hitting the IP articles; "It is possible to fight and win edit wars."... Black Kite (t) (c) 18:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the worst post from Wikibias is his first one, that's clearly out of line, no doubt. The one you cited about becoming a "good Wikipedian" has things about what edit warring is, explaining revert rules, a lot of it I actually would like to see among many of the participants in these articles! There's issues there, no doubt, but are they indefinite ban issues for off-wiki activity? I don't know about that and it's probably why we need to strongly consider how off-wiki content is handled in these types of instances. --WGFinley (talk) 18:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I certainly don't think it was worth an immediate indefinite block under AE provisions (modified when it was pointed out the admin had erred, but emphatically retaining the AE provisions), with no opportunity for defense. After all, where was the fire?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd disagree on that. Indef doesn't mean infinite. My take on it is that he's only explaining those things to people so that they don't get blocked. I can imagine that new IP editors with a particular POV might get blocked very quickly if they weren't cautioned how not to behave. If you're recruiting people with a certain POV into an already controversial area on Misplaced Pages, and then telling them how to game the system, I don't think we need editors like that. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Similarly, blocks are not irreversible. Admins come here all the time asking for reviews of their blocks. Sometimes they're approved, sometimes they're not (and then they're reversed). The same exists here. If there is consensus that the block of either or the both of them was not appropriate, it'll be reversed or shortened. Calm down. I understand you're big on this process thing, but I don't think you're adding to the conversation by harping on certain points over and over. -- tariqabjotu 18:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, "In what way?" how many times do I have to bring this up? What Blackkite said above, his "how to guide" which is really a guide for gaming the system, all the canvassing posts and: "So, I have started this blog to publish the often hidden problems of the world’s free online encyclopedia. I plan to work with other Wiki editors on this site, and we must be totally anonymous in order to keep our accounts on the site." At WP Israel: "Occassionally, I send people here to help with the efforts." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Most of it is facially neutral, good advice for getting along on WP, as has been pointed out by several editors. The fact that you had to characterize it as a "guide for gaming the system" means that there should have been the opportunity to defend, rather than a block out of the blue.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

How come you don't comment on the two quotes above where he straight out says that he is meatpuppeting? In his "guide" he has a plan for the editors on his side, and its obvious who his side is by reading all the canvassing posts in that blog and texts in that "guide": "So you want to become a Misplaced Pages editor and join the fight for truth and fairness? Excellent, we are looking for a few good men (and some great women)"...."Some anti-Israel editors will start an edit war with a pro-Israel user with the intention of making the pro-Israel editor so angry that he will do something stupid and get himself banned"..."There are roving gangs of anti-Israel editors looking to pick a fight.".... So we know now that he wants to recruit editors to edit articles in a pro-Israeli way, and then he gives them advise on how to at the beginning appear to be normal editors who later on in they're Misplaced Pages careers just stumbled upon some Arab-Israeli articles. The sole intent by this is to build up a false image for these new pro-Israeli editors when they're real goal from the very beginning is to embark on the Arab-Israeli articles pushing a pro-Israeli view. "Sooner or later you will notice that something that you regard as a simple fact, like the fact that Mt. Hermon is located in Israel, will be deleted by an editor who doesn’t agree with your worldview." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Question, have you read through all of the posts on wikibias.com? un☯mi 18:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Are there more that have not been linked to?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

By my count there are 14 blog posts there, perhaps you would care to review them so we can move beyond "facially". un☯mi 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Personally I think we should simply leave it to arbcom to decide at this point, but as you are obviously keen to continue discussing it then perhaps it would best to do so after being able to commit to having read through the whole site, 14 posts aren't that many. This would hopefully work towards a better heat / light ratio. un☯mi 18:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Will you help me with any big words? Why don't we make an agreement to agree on the waiting for Arbcom bit and agree to slowly put down the sarcasm and back away? I will if you will.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Deal :) un☯mi 19:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the role of WP:COI in all of this ? It says "A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Misplaced Pages, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Misplaced Pages in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." The statement is crystal clear and yet it isn't a policy, it apparently doesn't have any teeth and it's ignored in the I-P conflict area where many editors have a transparent conflict of interest and either no interest in policy compliance or no real understanding of what that means in terms of content decisions. If editors complied with WP:COI and admins were able to sanction editors for failing to comply with it we wouldn't have this mess. We can argue about details and nuances of policy and how they apply to these cases but a good start would be for Misplaced Pages to take conflict of interest seriously and act upon it. Tariq's actions are consistent with the kind of Misplaced Pages that takes COI seriously. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

According to WP:COI, "if you edit articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in area, you may have a conflict of interest." So I'd say that POV-pushing for purely personal ideological reasons does not constitute a COI. COI only exists if one is also personally involved with an advocacy organization, but in practice I think the point is not very relevant: POV-pushing, especially of the organized sort, is bad no matter whether a COI is also involved.  Sandstein  19:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiprojects exist that refer users to problematic articles. Editors can post articles they feel have issues, including bias. The fact that the website may have been pro-Israel doesn't matter. Editors are allowed to advertise their opinion on their userpage, including boxes that say they support the actions of Hezbollah, Al-qaeda in Iraq, Hamas (excuse me, right to "resist"). Editors can also announce their status as a hard-core Zionist and makes no differentiation between antisemitic and anti-Zionism. These editors can still edit articles, as long as they don't violate rules. Until there is evidence that edits are being made by behind-the-scenes groups with real wikipedia editors, collaborating as a unit and design strategies on how to violate the rules without breaking them, rather than explaining the rules and say don't break them - which is what the guide ultimately says - I don't see grounds for an indefinite block. I also have issues when editors are banned for alleged-actions offline or on actions made on other websites. Admins have jurisiction on wikipedia, they shouldn't take it upon themselves to battle other editors off-line without a serious discussion here or with other admins. Unilateral blocks like this should also be treated like a grain of salt.

On another note, I've witnessed plenty disputes that start from 2 or 3 involved editors trying to gain a consensus, and then a day later 20 editors with no involvement in the article show up to support their buddies. This is a real problem that should be stopped. I think this scandal has been turned into a lightening rod to distract from the real issues on wikipedia. I personally don't feel victim to an Israeli conspiracy. Many editors, who will remain name-less, have a vested interest in banning users they don't like for ideological differences. We all know this happens so let's not kid ourselves.Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, the good old anti-Zionism = anti-semitism and 'they support the terrists!' canards. I was wondering when somebody was going to pull those out. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 00:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I never said that. Editors can openly advertise their political agenda on their own userpage. You have this userbox on your page:

This user recognizes the right of Iraqis to resist occupation.

.

RolandR makes no differentiation between Zionists and Nazis on his own page.

This user advertises his sympathies with Hezbollah. Does this mean they cannot edit articles even though they clearly have a POV that is obviously not neutral? No, of course not. Just like editors who openly profess their gushing, unconditional support and obsession with Israel are allowed to work on articles regardless of whether they are about Palestine or Israel. The fact that Wikibias is inherently pro-Israel does not necessarily mean it is criminal. what if wikibias had no political agenda, but still referred editors to problematic articles? I have a feeling users would be less blood-thirsty for bannishment. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"Openly advertising" your political beliefs on your user page, is not the same as saying that you have a political agenda for editing Misplaced Pages. Wikibias, Yesha, et al. have specifically said that they want to inject their Zionist bias into Misplaced Pages (see , for instance). This is not the same as saying they are Zionists, but want to try to neutrally edit Misplaced Pages without a POV. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've just been reading through this thread and the sites in question. They are certainly disturbing, and certainly a matter for Arbcom. Blocking the accounts involved for admitted meatpuppetry is probably necessary to protect the project at this stage, although I do believe the final decision should be arbcom's. To Wehwalt (and anyone else who is concerned about the indefs), would you be satisfied with a reduced-length block that would nevertheless keep the accounts blocked until Arbcom could issue a ruling? It may be more semantic than anything, but at least it's not an indef handed out against an AE guideline. Throwaway85 (talk) 03:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure, were it understood that if Arbcom chooses not to take the case, any admin can unblock the usual way in his discretion. I suspect that the ominous silence we hear from Arbcom right now means something is up, but I'm fine with that. Say thirty days on each account, AN/I to consider a topic ban if Arbcom doesn't act?--Wehwalt (talk) 03:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I was going to suggest something very similar. I like that approach better than leaving the current indefs in place. The topic ban would undoubtedly be a necessary consideration should Arbcom decline to act. Throwaway85 (talk) 04:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I still believe, based on what I've been able to personally find from the person I believe to be Jiujitsuguy, that a topic ban would be more appropriate than an indefinite block. However, whoever the author of Wikibias is was clearly trying to organize a campaign to subvert Misplaced Pages's neutrality (per tariqabjotu's analysis above, at 11:46, 22 August 2010), and deserves a full an indefinite block. ← George 03:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that in Jiujitsuguy's case it isn't clear from the evidence and from what policies actually say right now that there has been a violation. Furthemore, the full story can't be obtained by simply looking at the evidence out there. Jiujitsuguy has his version and interpretation of events and that information does impact on what the evidence means and the conclusions that can be reliably drawn from it. There are already ambiguities here in terms of how policy applies based on the evidence but those ambiguities are magnified when you add in J's version of events. Now, I personally don't think J should be editing in the I-P conflict area because I consider his objectives to be in conflict with Misplaced Pages's but from his perspective his objectives are entirely consistent with Misplaced Pages's. Arbcom do need to look at this case because it's not straightforward. I can understand why Tariq would block J given the nature of the I-P conflict area here, the nature of the evidence and exisiting policy but there are lots of grey areas here. It would be better if there were simple bright line rules but there aren't. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll also add that while I personally favour the merciness crushing of persistent POV pushing beneath the full weight of an Israeli targeted killings-like approach to dealing with partisan editing here (and I applaud the recent efforts of both Tariq and WGFinley in acting to reduce conflict in several flashpoint articles by imposing editing restrictions quickly in response to trouble), the existing policies and sanctions don't really seem to support my views. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Footballer BLP enabled pending changes

• Ola Toivonen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There have been more edits to this article in the past 24 hours than in the whole of 2008. I've turned pending changes on, but the actual facts of the article need sorting out. At the moment it's a self-contradictory mess thanks to the silly back and forth by people who think writing things in Misplaced Pages will make them come true. Uncle G (talk) 20:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'd suggest semi-protect, just so the little bastards stop. I think I've finally fixed it. HalfShadow 21:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • That smells like 4chan... GiftigerWunsch 21:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
    • No. It's the Daily Mail. Uncle G (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it definately isn't 4chan; all the IPs seem to be UK based, and the chantards have their own 'style', if you could call it that. HalfShadow 21:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't geolocate the IP addresses, but I'd only ever seen such enormous anon-only attacks from 4chan. I guess they're not the only source of vandal armies. GiftigerWunsch 13:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I highly doubt it's 4chan, they really don't care about soccer. Throwaway85 (talk) 03:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• • I'll keep an eye out when I can for the next day or so. If the back and forth is goes up again, I might swap pending changes to semi-protection. Thank you for helping to sort out which Wrong Version is the right one. ☺ I haven't envied you that task. Uncle G (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Persecution by another editor

An editor called Smatprt is following me around, calling me a "vandal" and a "sock", gratuitously deleting my posts deletions and has even deleted this edit of mine (which cites a scholarly source) for the second time even though another editor restored it after the first deletion!! He's even deleted my post on a mediation page listing my objections to his behavior . People disagree in life but one should not try to stop the other from speaking ... everyone has a right to be heard. RewlandUmmer (talk) 20:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

No, not everyone has a right to be heard. You've been accused of being a sock puppet of Barryispuzzled (talk · contribs), see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Barryispuzzled/Archive and Misplaced Pages talk:Suspected sock puppets#Can someone intervene here?, who edits on Baconian issues and, specifically, targets Smatprt's edits. He and his socks don't have a right to edit. Someone will probably look into this shortly (I'm out of time here now). Dougweller (talk) 21:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I've no idea who you are, sir, but I'd thank you not to address me as if I'm some common criminal. There is no courage in joining in with the mob when you are hiding behind a computer screen. I'm an academic at a top UK University and deserve far more respect than you are giving me. My username is a sockpuppet for me because like thousand of other editors here, and because of reputation, I don't want to reveal my identity on these forums. I'd also like to see the evidence for what is shaping up to be a false attribution of another's identity to me, presumably because you and this Smatprt fellow are in collusion to protect the Oxfordian theory article at which I made perfectly valid scholarly edits which this Smatprt reverted without justification (another editor reverted his change). But I'm interested how you plan to plant a convicted person's identity on me, which is undoubtedly your dastardly scheme. For example, if you want to claim that I am Professor Roger Penrose, would the fact that we use the same network at our establishment be sufficient? Unless you can satisfactorily answer this question then I ask you to show more respect. RewlandUmmer (talk) 21:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Calm down, whoever you are. And don't attack administrators. They are doing a thankless task that is both onerous and time-consuming. The first lesson here is to be patient. If you are not a sockpuppet, then Smatprt's behaviour will be held against him. It was certainly not wise to make an attack post against him, or anyone, within your first series of edits, a mere two days after registering. And your first edits were to Baconian theory, which led Smatprt to the not unreasonable suspicion (though he should have acted more cautiously) that you might be a sockpuppet of the Baconian Barryispuzzled. Nishidani (talk) 21:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your measured mediation. But just for clarification, are you saying that anyone who adds a Stratfordian citation to the Baconian article is a Baconian? Are you also saying that there is only one person who has ever edited the Baconian article? RewlandUmmer (talk) 21:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

No. I'm trying to understand why Smatprt, with whom I have a long-going disagreement, behaved this time in such a precipitate manner. He may well be, and I hope he is, mistaken in the intuition that led him to make those reverts. But I had remonstrated with him, and you appeared out of the blue, with a dismissive remark about the page he edits (not unlike somethings I have said in exasperation in the past). That might well have struck him as less than coincidental. In fairness, therefore, I have written a note to him. I have absolutely no opinion on this. I can understand your indignation. I can understand why Smatprt may have thought you were a previous editor. But the rest is best left to the sober, quiet and patient work of admins. They do clear up these matters eventually. Nishidani (talk) 22:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Doug, neither of the links you provided mention RewlandUmmer. Simply being accused of being a sockpuppet is not sufficient cause to delete someone's edits. Furthermore, while I was suspicious of a new editor finding their way to mediation and AN/I within days of arriving, AN/I was recommended to them and I'm assuming mediation was mentioned on the relevant talk page. Also, the mere interest in Shakespearean Authorship and Baconian Theory is far from damning, as I'm sure there's many an english lit major who might find the articles and decide to contribute. Be wary of WP:BITE and be careful not to confuse a new editor with an WP:SPA. I'll look into this issue further and see what the deal is, specifically if there's any quacking going on. Throwaway85 (talk) 21:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I found the mediation link on Smatprt talk page. RewlandUmmer (talk) 21:32, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

No one's edits should be removed until they have been found to be a sockpuppet or a clearly such (not this case), and the blanket removal by an involved party as here is troubling. This is not a good thing for Smatprt to be doing. Verbal chat 21:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is the link to the BarryisPuzzled sockpuppet archive (one of 3!)]. Feel free to examine the edits and come to your own conclusion. It's painfully obvious that Barry is attempting a comeback. (Amazing how this "new" editor is so familiar with WP editing practices, including some complicated linking formats!) Smatprt (talk) 22:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

But that's easy, my 10 year old son could do that! I simply copied the linking formats from other posts. I also notice that other editors (see Xover below) are starting to see my willingness to provide information here as a welcome opportunity to join in the baiting. So I intend to back away from here and wait for the admins to look into it. RewlandUmmer (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, the pattern exhibited by RewlandUmmer since the account was registered matches Barryispuzzled and his socks so well that I was considering whether a case should be filed at WP:SPI to determine the truth; Barry's favorite target was Smatprt, for reasons related both to the topic (SAQ and Barry is a Bacon guy vs. Oxford for Smatprt) and because Smatprt was instrumental in getting the socking shut down; and Barry's MO is definitely to try to stir things up and play mind games (he used one sock to attack one of his other socks to try to garner sympathy and defenders). Incidentally, an IP edit made to RewlandUmmer may be helpful in determining who's who here (and it is geographically plausible as Barry). --Xover (talk) 22:24, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, I don't care for attacking this Smatprt person. The conflict arose because this guy turned up and deleted a Stratfordian citation I had added to the Oxfordian article which, by the way, another editor put back in. Those are the facts. RewlandUmmer (talk) 22:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

It may be plausible, and RewlandUmmer did say that he is at the same institution. I would recommend a checkuser take a look at things. As someone who was caught in the splatter of a checkuser's looking into sockpuppetry of a user at my school, I would simply recommend caution. The usual tools can return a false positive in this instance, so a more careful analysis is, I believe, in order. Given their location, and area of interest, it is entirely possible that the two editors may hold the same views and edit the same articles, from the same IP range, even with the same useragent data, and still be separate people. This still doesn't address the issue of Smartprt's actions, which I believe are at best premature, and inappropriate in any case. Throwaway85 (talk) 23:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, I indicated that I'm an Oxford University academic. Throwaway85 correctly perceives that we should not allow ourselves to be deflected from the issue at hand which relates to the unjustified deletion of a scholarly citation that I placed in the Oxfordian article. It is a citation that at least two other editors were comfortable with. I wouldn't mind betting that if you look back through the post records, the same editors who are trying to intimidate me have used the same tactics on others who have tried to edit this article. Looks to me like two of them (Xover and Smatprt) have a working relationship here. RewlandUmmer (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I also immediately took the view RewlandUmmer was Barryispuzzled, though admittedly the user name strongly implies an anagram of a particular 'real' name. However, Barry loves anagrams and the editor's grandiose style is very close to Barry's. The apparent disingenuousness is also typical of him. Paul B (talk) 01:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've been out of town, but just for the record since I have been solicited to add my opinion (I have absolutely zero interest in getting involved in another time-wasting dispute):

Regarding the citation that RewlandUmmer added and said "at least two other editors were comfortable with", I'm assuming he means this edit, which he made on several pages, including the draft article that Nisidani, Peter Farey, and I have worked on. If that is in fact that edit and if in fact he is an Oxford academic, it is remarkable that he has misconstrued the conclusion of my paper so badly, because it does not reaffirm "the orthodox view that William Strachey's 'True Reportory' was used a source for The Tempest", but only (as stated in the abstract) preserves its accessibility as a source for Shakespeare. I have not removed it from the draft article because I haven't yet gotten that far in my editing, having just begun the history section.

Although Smatprt might have been hasty, I know he has shown good instincts when it comes to identifying Barry's sockpuppets and has successfully identified them in the past before anyone else did. I'm sure that if RewlandUmmer turns out not to be Barry, Smatprt will apologise, but it does seem suspicious to me that he has with such vitriol called for Smatprt's banishment so quickly, an action that I have not even suggested with all the conflict we've had, because I think contrary opinions are necessary to a scholarly enterprise (even when misplaced), if for no other reasons than to keep us honest. One must wonder why an Oxford academic would even bother with the Shakespeare Authorship Question, much less insist upon banishment of an editor with a different viewpoint.

Again, he may not be Barry, and if he isn't I'm sure Smatprt will apologise, as well as everyone else involved in this matter, but the amount of harm done by a false accusation is not all that great IMO, especially since RewlandUmmer's real identity is not besmirched if it is not known. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not about harm so much as the violation of principles and policies that allow us to maintain an environment that is conducive to the building of an informative, reliable encyclopedia. I have no position, stated or otherwise, on whether RU is Barry. That's not my concern, and there are others far more qualified than I to make that determination. My concern is with the violation of WP:BITE, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL (both parties are guilty here, so it's not central to my concern), as well as several others. The removal of contributions in the absence of any finding of sockpuppetry is especially concerning. We are permitted to remove the contributions of banned editors, not merely those who are suspected of wrongdoing. It is my belief that Smartprt should apologize and reverse his removals. If, indeed, RU is found to be a sockpuppet, then those reversals can, themselves, be reversed. Throwaway85 (talk) 03:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we can say that there is any straightforward violation of WP:BITE, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL. A sock is by definition not a 'newcomer' being bit, and for the same reason we don't assume good faith of editors who have already been demonstrated to behave with bad faith. Equally, it is not 'uncivil' to delete edits by sockpuppets of banned editors. It's policy. So this all depends on the problem of how we identify socks of banned editors. Do we always have to go through the elaborate official procedure? I have to say that I feel quite confident that RewlandUmmer is Barry. Some socks are obvious, and it has been practice to delete without prejudice in some cases. Some banned editors enjoy playing the system, and 'tangling up' their opponents in it. Paul B (talk) 03:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If he's an obvious sock, then a checkuser will waste precious little time in determining so. You presume his sock status, then use that presumption to justify the removal of content and the violations of bite, agf, etc. Your argument is that those policies and principles don't apply because he's a sock, and that presupposes his guilt. It is absolutely *not* acceptable to remove contributions from editors who are in good standing. Suspicion does not equal guilt, and it is this presupposition of guilt that is the violation of AGF, BITE, and others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Throwaway85 (talk • contribs)

You are mistaken about checkuser. Barry lives in London and uses internet cafes (see User talk:Barryispuzzled). Millions of people live in London. If he happens to be visiting Oxford for some reason he may easily 'create' a new identity there. In such a case, the only way to determine his identity is by old fashioned analysis of style and content. I don't presume he is a sock, I take the view that he is, on the basis of the evidence, as did Smatprt. Paul B (talk) 04:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean that when comparing the Shakespeare work with that of another candidate, you are saying that it's possible to determine common identity on the basis of verbal parallels alone? RewlandUmmer (talk) 11:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Just going by intuition I'd say it's a sock. And if the name's an anagram it would likely be Andrew-something. -- œ 06:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Registering 3 days ago isn't 'good standing'. That aside, this user does smell like a sock. I would suggest this be taken to SPI.— Dædαlus 06:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I once witnessed a policeman in Oxford being set upon by four soccer hooligans in a market place. He succeeded in handcuffing one but had trouble subduing another who he was wrestling with on the ground. The other two gleefully watched. After several minutes a crowd of about twenty had gathered round and by this time the handcuffed hooligan was taking running kicks at the policeman on the ground, striking him in the head. No one did anything to help the policeman whose strength was slowly ebbing away. So I grabbed the handcuffed hooligan around the waist to distract him. This gave the policeman time to radio for help and a couple of minutes later reinforcements arrived and the culprits were arrested. I tell you this not to trumpet my own virtue. I tell you to illustrate the point that in my experience that when a crowd see blood they either stand by hoping to see more or actively induce it. Interesting how the real point of this thread, that an editor is deleting a post without justification, has been set aside in favour of the much more pleasurable activity of mob violence. Looking over this thread, it is also interesting for me to see the over-interpretation people can give to evidence and presumably this is why they are interested in the Shakespeare Authorship problem where this weakness is particularly prevalent. In the last analysis, I came here to do one edit, to add a single scholarly citation to three articles the SAQ, the Baconian and the Oxfordian. In the process, I have met some quite sadistic and deluded people. It's like a dysfunctional family who are fighting one another. As soon as you upset one of them they all unite and support each other! Go and find yourself another victim. RewlandUmmer (talk) 10:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course this guy's a sock. Doesn't smell remotely like an Oxonian. --Epipelagic (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

LOL. Someone mentioned anagrams. Read your name backwards it says cig-ale-pipe! That doesn't suggest that you know much about an Oxbridge education! Actually, I might stick around for a while, I'm starting to enjoy this! :) RewlandUmmer (talk) 11:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the point of joining wikipedia is to edit articles constructively, not tie up other editors, or administrators, with a game you now say you are enjoying. If you are beginning to enjoy the way the men who administer wiki law are distracted by this puzzle, or the way people who put paid to a former sock known to enjoy entangling the enforcement of rules may be wasting their time, you might consider for your delectation, one of your possible anagrams, 'Murder lawmen'.Nishidani (talk) 11:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

And editing articles constructively, my friend, is the whole point of this thread which, try as hard as I might, I have not yet succeeded in getting you or others (apart from Throwaway85) to focus on. I think I understand why and it relates to what constitutes sound evidence in the Shakespeare Authorship debate. In my experience, people who are interested in this topic are usually given to over-interpreting evidence, because that's the only way to convince oneself that something can be proved when in fact it can't. (That includes Stratfordians too who visit here in great numbers and take any biography of Shakspere as gospel when it's a gratuitous interpolation.) It needs a personality that makes the kind of assumptions that are being made on this thread, and covertly on various talk pages, to think there is certainty in the face of few facts. It would have to be a mind that believes that someone who posts messages in Oxford actually lives in London; one that believes that no one is smart enough to pick up linking format in three days; one that believes that a person who edits for the first time has spent no time reading any of the discussions or examined the procedures before editing; one that believes that someone who "smells" like a imposter actually is one; one who believes that in comparing two texts a common authorship can be attributed on the basis of verbal parallels alone. That's why I'm enjoying this, because it's the sheer crudity of some of the logic that I find enthralling, and in Elizabethan England the innocent were wrongly hanged with this kind of arguing. Stick to the point of this thread (see first post) and so will I. Oh, and one final example of over-interpretation, Nishidani. Have you never heard of Roland Emmerich? RewlandUmmer (talk) 12:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

R Emmerich? Of course I have. I've edited his page, and, his name was discussed in an email I exchanged with another editor last night, on this very question!

If your mind wanders, with theatrical hyperbole, to things like the scavenger's daughter when mulling the 'crudity' of argument used against you here, I am tempted to think of Lord Bacon and his Apologia, recalling the passage where he argued against Queen Elizabeth, who wished to use the rack to extract the identity of the real author of a book she believed written with a pseudonym.

'Nay, madam, . .never rack his person, rack his stile; let him have pen, ink, and paper, and help of books, and be enjoined to continue his story, and I will undertake, by collating his stile, to judge whether he were the author or no.'

I'm sure you're familiar with the source in James Spedding's edition, if not from Mrs Henry Pott (she does need a wiki biography by the way).

To adopt a phrasing from your neighbour Roger Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind (1989:414), creatures with the better ἀλγο-rhythms survive, even on wiki. Stiff upper lip and all that, old chap. I'm sure you'll save your bacon :)Nishidani (talk) 12:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - As no one has yet so much as requested an SPI, it is inappropriate to deal with RU as if he is a sock. If you think that's the case, request an SPI. If he is a sock, he will be indeffed. If not, then he keeps editing, and is owed several apologies. Defending Smartprt's actions because you agree with his findings is not helpful. RU's contributions should not have been removed before he was blocked for sockpuppetry, period. Throwaway85 (talk) 01:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You are right, of course, and I do apologize for acting hastily. Franky, though, when one has had to deal with scores of socks all going back to one user (Barryispuzzled), it does get tiresome. Regardless - I apologize for jumping the gun. I have now started the SPI here: ]. Smatprt (talk) 01:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, both for the apology and for the SPI. RU, is Smatprt's apology satisfactory to you?

Editor creating low quality content

Everything created by Paedea2008 (talk · contribs) has been of extremely low quality and unsalvageable. While some of their content seems to be hoax, such as TV Animal Farm, others seem to be good faith contributions about real things, but of such low quality that they're unsalvageable articles. Per WP:TNT, can someone please blast through this user's contributions, and maybe give some kind of warning? Many of their contribs have already been speedied. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 18:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

funny: when I read the header in the table of content, I knew who was gonna be discussed before scrolling down. User doesn't respond to any warnings... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:37, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Without getting into the specifics of the specific user:Paedea2008 I would like to address the philosophical implications of saying a user's contributions are "good faith contributions about real things, but of such low quality that they're unsalvageable articles". Really? When was policy rewritten because last I saw it said quite clearly that an AfD reason that was "bad quality" was NOT acceptable or legitimate, not being notable was the main primary reason for an article deletion, not that it was of bad quality. We are an encyclopedia that admits it is continually under construction and we never discriminate based on poor use of English or grammar, bad citation forms, or bad formatting or procedural misteps as long as it is all in good faith. Now I know Ten Pound was stating this in all good faith and there were other more legit reasons why Paedea2008 was a disruption, but WP:TNT which is an essay and not a policy (nor apparently a llama, though it may be a camel) is not a great thing to be quoting and using as justification and in fact flies in the face of multiple statements found in numerous policies and guidelines.Camelbinky (talk) 03:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I haven't yet looked at the specifics either, but while I agree that we need to be careful with somewhat degrading terms like "crapflood of low quality content" (in fact I would encourage TenPoundHammer to choose a more suitable title for this thread), WP:COMPETENT does come into play if a user's contributions are consistently of sufficiently poor quality that they cannot be deciphered or repaired, and in some cases, the only option is to "blow it up and start again" as WP:TNT suggests. I don't think AfD is what is being suggested here Camelblinky, read WP:TNT again. Removing the content or "stubifying" indecipherable or unsalvagable articles may be necessary. I'm going to have a look at some of the user's contributions in a moment. GiftigerWunsch 13:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This editor is creating a lot of unnecessary work for others. All of their contributions have either been speedied, prodded, or taken to AfD. The editor has had warnings/notifications placed , , , , , including 1 only , and 1 final warning. The editor has been unresponsive to each of the warnings, and has not made an attempt to communicate to save the articles (as a lot do), so I feel that it would have been pointless to try and talk with this editor directly. Instead, I am proposing a block of some length on this editor for what I (and others) consider to be disruptive editing. Whose Your Guy (talk) 14:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Note: there is already a thread about this user; maybe this should be merged with the "Crapflood of low quality content" thread above. GiftigerWunsch 14:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Good point, there is so much stuff on this page that I missed it, but it is now merged. Whose Your Guy (talk) 15:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This is always a hard one but bluntly his contributions are of such a low quality and creating so much work that he should be blocked because he's actively degrading the project (not out of any malice as far as I can see). --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've just taken a look at some of his contributions, and I think it's a little harsh to take such a stance simply because his english isn't up to par; I've seen worse attempts at pages than The Gold Axe and Silver Axe, for example, which I've generally cleaned up (or at least marked for cleanup) rather than prodding with an unhelpful and irrelevant message such as "Extremely low quality contribution from editor with a ton of low-quality article work." given in this case. A better approach here would be to either mark it for improvement or improve it yourself, which I intend to do now. GiftigerWunsch 22:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done: I removed the personal commentary and POV, cleaned up the encyclopaedic information, and tagged it as needing references; I'll take a look for some myself in a little while if none emerge. Has anyone discussed with the user how to improve their edits? Explaining the proper tone and register of an encyclopaedic article is probably the most important here. I have to agree that language appears to be a barrier here, but I don't think we should just write this user off as useless just yet, nor is the blind prodding of all of his recent contributions acceptable, as several of them may well be notable subjects and relevant to wikipedia. GiftigerWunsch 22:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

To answer my own question, I don't see any discussion with the user, discounting warning templates and deletion notifications. GiftigerWunsch 22:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm rather shocked by this, but sadly not altogether surprised. The concept of "civility" here on wikipedia is definitely screwed. Malleus Fatuorum 22:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Malleus, do you have anything to contribute to this discussion? This isn't the first time I've noticed you've commented on a thread just to take a sarcastic snipe at the wikipedian community, while failing to actually contribute towards improving it. If you're shocked by the apparent incivility with regards to this matter, by all means give civil advice to the user, help them improve their work, or pose an alternate option here. GiftigerWunsch 22:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Giftiger that those warnings and deletion notifications are not "communication" can those that came to this thread stating that they tried to talk to this individual but got no response please let us know if there was real attempts at communication? I know if I did something wrong and all I got was a stern warning or bureaucratic templates and English wasnt my first language then I'd be confused how to respond. Perhaps a nicer better approach to this editor and attempt to turn them into a good contributor is in order rather than just pushing them out.Camelbinky (talk) 23:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe we have some general communication-problem here. I, for one, was assuming that when I leave a non-templated note on someone's page, and that someone has any questions, s/he will ask. That's at least what I would do, esp. when there's a floodload of such messages. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Alright, one more time... this includes an "edit-new section"-link. If that won't work, I don't know what ele to try... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

We do not even have any idea if this user ever even clicks on the new message warning when they sign in as there is no evidence he/she has ever edited their talk page or user page it is possible they have never gone to the talk page! Is there anyone who can think of a way to contact this person? They may not visit article talk pages either... other than using an article that they edit directly (and this may be the only way and a case of breaking policy just to contact this editor).Camelbinky (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Verbal long-term revert warring on my user page.

Verbal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
This user has been attempting to speedy delete or full blank a file in my user space, revert warring, that was used to hold evidence for an RfAr in which I was involved. The actual case pages were courtesy blanked, and, on Verbal's request, I blanked this page as well. That wasn't enough for him. The situation is well enough explained, with full diffs, in my response to a Request for page protection, permanent link, that he filed, attempting to get the page protected in his preferred form, as he has done before. Please encourage him to stop, this is wasting everyone's time. Thanks. --Abd (talk) 23:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)add bold for Toddst1's benefit. --Abd (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

User was warned at , and previously about speedy deletions at --Abd (talk) 23:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of wasting everyone's time, now that this page is protected, what was it you wanted from ANI? Toddst1 (talk) 00:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for your concern, Toddst1. I had not seen the protection when I filed the report. Further, the long-term behavior indicates that, unless he is discouraged, he will just come back later, when the protection expires in a month, and repeat this, leading to more waste of time. I asked for what I wanted. I've bolded it. I still want it. --Abd (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Changing to indefinite protection. It's a userpage, so I suppose there's no reason not to; in any case it can be overturned at a later date if circumstances change. · Andonic 00:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Why that's exactly what I thought. Thanks, Andonic. --Abd (talk) 03:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to what Abd claims above, the page was never used in an RfAr or in any other capacity and should therefore be blanked or deleted. Misplaced Pages is not a webhost, and especially not one for hosting unfounded and untrue complaints about other editors that cannot be responded to. These kinds of misleading statements and half truths have got Abd into trouble before. Verbal chat 09:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is here Verbal; I had a look at the recent history, and the page was blanked with a notice that it had been blanked, and you reverted multiple times to a version with no notice. GiftigerWunsch 09:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, that blanking notice provides a link demonstrating that the page was at one point used as a response in an arbitration request; it was linked to as a response. GiftigerWunsch 09:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No, the page was never part of an arbitration request (and one in which Abd was waaay over the limit anyway). The problem is the link Abd keeps inserting to the misleading smears. Verbal chat 09:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Since it serves no purposes in the encyclopedia, why don't we just MFD it and Abd can save himself a copy offline. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It should simply be deleted and in the meantime protected at teh properly blanked version. It is not a courtesy blanking if you give a misleading summary and a link. Verbal chat 09:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Since it formed part of the response to an arbcom investigation, it might be worth keeping it so that anyone who wants to see exactly what Abd's responses in the investigation were, can look at the response in history. I believe that's why it has been kept and courtesy-blanked. GiftigerWunsch 09:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, you are wrong. It did not form part of the arbom investigation. Verbal chat 09:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The link in the blanking notice demonstrates that it did. Simply saying that I am wrong without justification doesn't change the fact that the user has provided a permanent link showing that he produced the page in order to respond to the arbitration investigation. GiftigerWunsch 09:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No, it was not used. Please present evidence it was used, you'll not find any. Note that until long after the case closed it was marked draft, and only abd has attempted to move it to Arb space, long after the case closed. It was never used. If it was I would have responded then to the smears. Verbal chat 09:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The link the user provided, to here, seems to indicate that the page was linked to on the arbcom page. The fact that it still said it was being drafted doesn't mean it wasn't included. If you think that the courtesy blanking message is inappropriate, you'll need to produce evidence that it is deception, not the other way around. GiftigerWunsch 09:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Giftiger. At that link can be seen that all these pages were how I responded to evidence presented by others, Verbal's page is no different, but seems to be the only blanked one. With the case already a monster, if i had responded on the case page to all that presented by many, it would have been far larger. At the end of discussion on the attached Talk page is what I'd said before: I have many times requested that errors on the page, and pages like this, be noted, so I can correct them with disclaimers, strike-out, etc, and no specific errors have been alleged. --Abd (talk) 18:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

That echoes what I originally wrote (see the link), All but one are currently drafts; they may be read for the sense of my response, but they are long and have not been boiled down and checked. If there are significant errors, I'd appreciate notice on my talk page. I received not one such notice, not from Verbal, not from anyone. He is continuing an old conflict. I haven't even read this page since then. Maybe I should, and maybe I should look at the original Verbal evidence, and maybe others could as well. But I'm not asking for that. The page should be left for the record. I blanked it on his request, and what Verbal was revert warring for is very close to what he was given, without conflict, originally, and it was only his many attempts to have the page deleted entirely that caused me to need to add the note so people could find what some arbitrators may have seen, instead of only seeing a series of blank pages with or without notices. Is he ashamed of something? You know, he could ask me to do something about this. I don't take very well to being bullied. Most people don't. --Abd (talk) 00:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Guideline for removal of rollback?

My rollback privileges were removed by User:Toddst1 after he observed that I was engaging in bitey behavior towards an IP editor, as documented in the ANI thread Behavior of Binksternet towards IP user. Toddst1 made what I must assume was a very quick survey of my edits and determined that I had abused rollback and that I had been engaging in edit warring short of 3RR violation. I haven't used plain old rollback for a couple of weeks at least, and I pointed out to Toddst1 that his examples of my rollback abuse were Twinkle edits. I use Twinkle for almost all of my rollback actions, and I made an honest mistake with it by not clicking on the green AGF link; rather, I had gotten so used to using the red VANDAL link with Twinkle that I was operating under the assumption that the red link was the only available Twinkle link, and that the others were plain rollback links. My mistake, and I have corrected my behavior.

On the WP:Rollback feature and WP:Twinkle pages, there is no guideline stating that rollback can be removed for abusing Twinkle or for edit warring. Instead, the guideline states that rollback can be removed only for abuse of rollback itself. I pointed this fact out to Toddst1 at User talk:Binksternet#rollback but he did not address it. Instead, he replied that I should go without edit warring for an undetermined time before he would consider restoring rollback. This brings me to my questions:

• Is the guideline for removal of rollback privileges contained entirely at WP:Rollback feature or are there other factors listed elsewhere?
• Can rollback be removed for non-rollback related activities?
• Can my rollback privileges be restored? Thanks! Binksternet (talk) 01:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Is rollback removal appealable to AN/I? Or should it be?--Wehwalt (talk) 01:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If there's no other forum for rollback restoration petitions, I don't see why not (not certain because I've been inactive for a while). · Andonic 01:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it is relevant to determine what limits there are in administrator removal of rollback. I don't really need the feature as Twinkle replaces it nicely. I wish to have this question answered for future benefit of the wiki, so that admins know when they can remove rollback and when they should not. Binksternet (talk) 01:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Out of interest, did you consider Twinkle's having named that feature "rollback" to be a mere coincidence, and thus separate from the rollbacker role? If so, why? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 01:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Twinkle had rollback long before it became a usergroup. · Andonic 02:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Technically, anything is appealable here. Since rollback is considered "easy come, easy go" appealing here will not (without assertion of gross misuse of rights management) normally gain much attention. If Binksternet holds to their stated commitment of self-restraint, rollback should be re-granted in short order. Binksternet...while there may not be a direct reference to edit warring on the rollback page, it does state "rollback should not be used to undo good-faith changes in content disputes". The first sentence of WP:Edit warring states "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about some aspect of the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions". So, it kinda follows. Tiderolls 02:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

To be fair to Binksternet, he added that himself following the previous ANI discussion. Nevertheless, I'm still curious as to why he thought that two different operations both called "rollback" were under separate rules in the first place. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 02:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I see your point, Chris. To be clear; I wasn't accusing Binksternet of edit warring (apologies if I came across that way). I was simply responding to their inquiry regarding removal of rollback vis à vis edit warring. Tiderolls 02:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Then I gather the answers are: Yes, it can be appealed, in most cases it shouldn't be, and Binksternet should probably wait a little time, then approach the administrator who removed it or else put in a new request.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Reasonable conclusions and seems to be the consensus; I'll mark as resolved. · Andonic 12:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

For the record, Binksternet has a history of abusing rollbacks in content disputes. I had previously warned him about the misuse of the tool. Kurdo777 (talk) 04:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Just to add an unsolicited opinion, this almost seems a case of WP:SHOT and Binksternet has inadvertently provided a rationale for his name to be added to the Twinkle blacklist. The best thing to do if your rollback right s are revoked is to leave it a few weeks then make your case to the admin who removed it. Btw, if such a case were brought up at WP:PERM/R, the editor would be told to discuss it with the admin first. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Incivility / harassment by User:7mike5000

Hello. I've posted links and diffs regarding a problem between another user and myself on the Wikiquette alerts page, but nothing has come of it (See: Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts#Incivility_by_user_7mike5000). I've tried to determine what board is best to report this problem, but the chain of command isn't clear, so I'm posting here. Would an admin either direct me towards a functioning committee or group which covers this sort of thing or bring other users into handle this? Since I'm not sure this is the correct page, can someone else notify User:7mike5000 of this comment if it's appropriate to do so? Thanks. TeamZissou (talk) 02:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

He's been informed. - Donald Duck (talk) 02:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've brought the diffs from WQA here and dropp them into the above archive box for ease. S.G. _ping! 08:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Although he is correct in his tagging of the articles (i.e. they do need references or whatever) that doesn't mean he is necessarily tagging them for the right reasons. I would say that mass removal of a section is a bit of a decisive application of WP:BRD and you might want to have tempered it a bit with discussion first, but the other user's comments are completely dickish. I draw attention to the initial response of "People like yourself crack me up, with your twisted logic and your rude mouth"; "Tell you what mouth, out of the millions of people who access Misplaced Pages the fact that you run into know it all, trouble makers like yourself is pretty much a given, it's like you people flock to Misplaced Pages, what is it not enough love from mommy?"; "Displaying bravado and wise comments are easy to do when you sit behind a computer screen. Nobody died and left you boss, and if you want to try and belittle somebody, try harder" and so forth. I am especially interested in why he signed himself "Saddhiyama" I'll ask User:Saddhiyama. --S.G. _ping! 09:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In this thread on his/her talk page, I pointed out that trawling through another editor's history and tagging their stubs is combative - though in my case, most were justified. Having done it again to TeamZissou, let me just say explicitly 7mike5000, it's inappropriate.

In this thread I recommended 7mike5000 refrain from calling people names and instead "politely argue your case on its merits."

In this post on TeamZissou's talk page, 7mike5000 said, "I myself am going to control my temper. I can state my case in a rational manner without resorting to calling people J***-off"

7mike5000 has admitted here that "I have a tendency to lose my temper and respond with infantile vulgarity" and here that "I tend to overreact so I apologize."

So 7mike5000, you are aware there is an overreaction problem, and you want to modify that behaviour. Please do, because you have a lot to offer. Please thoroughly familiarise yourself with WP:AGF and don't rise to perceived bait. Polite argumentation wins the day. I also suspect you need a firmer grip on WP:NOR and WP:MEDRS. Following these as well as (given your comments about a tendency to overreact) WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, should make your time spent here peaceful and productive. Anthony (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I made a good faith edit/addition to Smoking. It gets deleted without commentary by TeamZissou. I reverted and state just to use the edit summary. Deleting someones' edit without commentray is rude. He then deletes it again. And leaves this uninformed tirade;

think that there's some bias and misreporting going on here, in that smoking is far more common among people with mental heath issues ranging from depression to schizophrenia, but that the affects of tobacco smoking serves as a "band-aid" for the underlying issues. Also, this entire section was tobacco-centric, and we've gone rounds on this talkpage reminding contributers that there already exists a tobacco smoking article. Indeed, there's already a mental health section in the Health effects of tobacco article. Beginning a section with weasel words like "There is a proven correlation between cigarette smoking and depression," doesn't make for factual articles. The lay reader would interpret that in the same way a non-scientist would interpret a wording such as "Evolution is just a theory." The point I'm trying to make is that this is not the tobacco smoking article -- this article is on the practice, culture and history of smoking in general, and pamphleteering to persuade isn't the point of the Misplaced Pages project. 19:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Using comments like; there's some bias and misreporting going on here

and like this: and pamphleteering to persuade isn't the point of the Misplaced Pages project

is enough to gey anybody incensed. If that isn't condesceding, rude, impertinent and uncivil I don't know what is. The audacity to instigate an alteration, then receieve a like response to go complain and try to twist facts.

The fact is that he another user asked this individual to tone done his wise comments concerning others twice.

Complaing about this: I've just learned that User:7mike5000 has gone through and tagged or altered the following articles I've started, all of which are listed on my user page:

• Bulliform cell (changes here: )
• Plastic Utopia (changes here: )
• Geomys (changes here: )
• George IV Bridge (changes here: )
• Henry E. Dixey (changes here: )
• Norderoog (changes here: )

They were tagged with appropriate tags. To delete other people's edit and talk down to somebody, then preach what Misplaced Pages is or is not, and your own "contributions" fail to meet even the most basic tenets, such as a reference. I failed to notice where it states anywhere, that you can't place an APPROPRIATE tag on somebodies article if there has been some disagreement.

This comment:Thank you for the condescending answer. So I take it that means you have nothing to back up your claim with. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

7mike5000 (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

The edit history doesn't reveal a user Saddhiyama making any changes -- I'm not sure why this is there, unless it was a botched attempt at sockpuppetry, which is something 7mike5000 has gotten into trouble for in the past, as I will show later. The only wiki-anything user named Saddhiyama I could find was this page (Saddhiyama), and it seems they contribute mainly to the Danish project. I have not contacted this user.

--Saddhiyama (talk) 19:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC) 

7mike5000 (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Its from TeamZissou contributions page, its kind of funny because now its not there, that's convenient, is it possible for someone to alter or delete user contributions from their history? Of course it is, if you know an administrator or are one. There was a problem with a pictures uploaded at Wikimedia, an adminstrator in Germany fixed the issue, and cleared up the upload summary. So that's what happened here. That's a little disurbing to go through that effort. Forgot to take care of this though:

19:12, 9 April 2009 (diff | hist) User talk:TeamZissou ‎ (→Question about my history: oh you silly goose) 19:09, 9 April 2009 (diff | hist) User talk:Saddhiyama ‎ (→Re: Question about my history) 19:06, 9 April 2009 (diff | hist) Talk:Enlightened absolutism ‎ (→Benevolent dictatorship: some people just like to cause problems.) and this: I would have preferred not to be dragged into that conflict, for my part any disagreement I might have had with TeamZissou is a closed chapter. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Intitiating rude behavior this is all from his contributions page, cur | prev) 20:07, 7 May 2010 TeamZissou (talk | contribs) (9,574 bytes) (added photo (again) -- it was removed by some zealot with a vague comment about it being (""out of context""). Hopefully that user is no longer active, and this useful image remains this time.) (undo and this one 19:46, 2 September 2009 (diff | hist) History of Icelandic ‎ (I came here looking for sources, and found not one.) 23:11, 19 July 2009 (diff | hist) List of punk films ‎ (→U: not even a hint of tangibly relating to anything punk, either in the film or in any element of culture inspired by it) 06:19, 17 July 2009 (diff | hist) Meadow jumping mouse ‎ (Removed poorly written, unsourced material. Ref to Smith was a little distorted -- Good idea for a section, but a very bad section without better language and accurately cited statements.) 18:44, 9 May 2010 (diff | hist) Scythians ‎ (Undid revision 361068696 by Gabhala (talk) The pro-Iran rewriting is annoying. Undid revision--look @ previous page edits.)

Someone who has a history of initiating altercations with rude comments, deleting the contributions of others and is obvioulsly on an infantile vendetta.

A simple comment in the edit summary on his part would have avoided the issue, to follow it up with rudeness and condescension just escalated it. To go out of his way to alter or ask somebody to alter his user contributiion log, is, and there is no euphemistic way of putting disturbing. 7mike5000 (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

And yet you were quite uncivil yourself. S.G. _ping! 20:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I specifically said in the original revert AND the second revert that the complete edit summary was on the talk page of the smoking article, and that I not only included the entire section but also outlined what I found wrong with it's content and placement. How long are you (7mike5000) going to continue this? Pointing out another example of my bad behavior in the past isn't helpful. Just drop it, and know that I'll be surveying my watchlist everyday for when you nominate my articles for deletion. Saddhiyama is right in that whatever we were arguing about IS a closed chapter, but it seems prudent that I have to now watch closely for nitpicking and juvenile retribution -- no, that's not meant to be insulting, rather it's descriptive. There's no other reason for doing what you've been doing than bullying. I don't want to be back here in a month when you start nominating articles I've started for deletion or moves simply to feed your issues. Also, stop trying to bait me into a bitching fest -- dealing with internet tough guys is wearisome. It's working, but if that's your agenda, stop. If not, what gives? TeamZissou (talk) 02:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

User:NovaSkola

1. User reverted my edit as vandalism. I've added a name of the fortress in Armenian and in Azeri; I've mentioned that the fortress is situated in the disputed territory which is de-facto under the control of NKR for improving NPOV. Finally I've added three interwikies: in Azeri, Russian and Ukrainian. All these my edits were reverted by User:NovaSkola as a vandalism.
2. There were a discussion in the talk page of the article about the city of Martuni. Don't taking part in the discussion User:NovaSkola changed the name from Martuni to the Khojavend and after it he make a request to the administrators for protection of the name of the article. Administrator SlimVirgin protected the name of the article on the version of NovaSkola. Then there were no discussion from the users who represents Azerbaijan: User:Tuscumbia, User:NovaSkola and User:Brandmeister as they agreed that it is normal behavior of user NovaSkola. In my request that there are no consensus, administrator SlimVirgin wrote answer in the talk page (end of the page).
3. After that without any discussion User:NovaSkola has done the same with the article about Martakert (town). He moved the name of the article and after that make a request for protection of the title, but I've seen it and stopped him, mentioning about it in the RfPP. After some period of time he repeated the action. He moved the title and then make a request for protection of the title on his version. Administrator TFOWR accepted request.

• Please take concrete measures against the user, which is in conflict articles biased and unfair conducts his activities. Thanks in advance. --Ліонкінг (talk) 05:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No idea about the content-dispute, but there seems to be some mis-use of Twinkle going on... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like someone needs a break from twinkle.— Dædαlus 06:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, definatly needs a break from Twinkle Látches (talk) 09:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Ліонкінг mentions the link to Ukranian Askeran Fortress. I just want to remind, that in the Ukranian version there is no mentioning of Azerbaijan even though the fortress is legally located on Azerbaijani territory. About city so called Martuni, it is actually perfectly fine with Misplaced Pages, due it should be renamed to de-jure name not de-facto. So I guess this user accusing me of false allegations and I want admins to check my and his records and make right decision. Also I want to remind, this user previously topic banned on Azerbaijani articles as he was falsifying Azerbaijani articles and removing references, while accusing all other users of mistreating him.--NovaSkola (talk) 16:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There were not only Ukrainian interwiki, there were also Azeri and Russian interwikies, You've deleted all of them. But it is even not important what is in the other language article. In the ukrwiki uses de-facto names. Anyway You don't have a right to delete interwikies and mention it as vandalism.

"About city so called Martuni, it is actually perfectly fine with Misplaced Pages, due it should be renamed to de-jure name not de-facto." - it is only Your opinion. You can't decide for whole community. By the way there were a big hot discussion on the talk page of the article. You've just ignore opinion of participants and moved the title of article and make request for protection on Your version, however there were a hot discussion. I have never falsified anything. Just You and Your collegues Tuscumbia and Brandmeister started a campaign against me and from third request I and Your collegue Tuscumbia were topic banned.

Speaking about everything else what You've said it is just Your propoganda and it does no matter to the plot of this discussion. Now we're speaking about Your behavior and Your concrete actions, not about my actions. So please give direct answers to the request. Thanks. --Ліонкінг (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Your not admin to I force me to do something. Ліонкінг is surely, don't know his duties by showing agressive behavior against me. This user just showed his attitude against Azerbaijani users by accusing us without having constructive arguments. So I urge admins to take action.--NovaSkola (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

On a side note, considering User:NovaSkola's past actions of removing information he/she finds unpalatable(massive deletion of referenced information),(contends Armenian sources are not neutral, yet corresponding source is written by a Turk(Özkırımlı)!),(straight deletion after information was given on the talk page, which was NOT used by User:NovaSkola!), why has this editor's recent actions surprised anyone? Admins should take into consideration this editor's past reverts, deletions and non-use of talk page, before allowing User:NovaSkola continued use of Twinkle. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Ліонкінг

I've moved this thread up to unify the two complaints; feel free to revert if you think this was inappropriate. Salvio 18:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I have complaint against User:Ліонкінг, who constantly personally attacks me and other users without having constructive opinions. Situation follows: 1. User failed to notify me, about incident that he launched against me. While I notified him immediately. 2. User starts using aggressive behavior towards me by forcing me to do his actions, despite this user is not in admin role. An example of this could be - give direct answers to the request in here http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:NovaSkola 3. User also accuses other Azerbaijani users, which includes Tuscumbia and Brandmeister by trying to get back to him, while we just only complained so Lionking tries to blackmail me and others.

So I hope admins, do something against this user who is fed me up with his direct attacks.--NovaSkola (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a big contribution in enwiki, so everybody can review my contribution. The problem is that user NovaSkola try to get distracted from my request. He don't want to give direct answers on my request. Instead of it he says that I've aggressive behavior against him and smbd else. I want to listen his comment to the diffs which I've written. Am I disagree with his behavior? Yes, I'm. And I've written here why. He revert my edits and he write that I vandalise pages while I'm not do it. Then I want to hear why he without any discussion move the title of the articles which are about very disputed area and then he make a request for protection on his version. And he don't take a part in any discussion. --Ліонкінг (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, you don't have big contribution and now you are taking on big contribution users from Azerbaijan to ruin our reputation. Once again, I decide admins to make wise decision and make sure this user is not attacking me directly. User must know his own responsibilities and not accuse of me answering or forcing something. --NovaSkola (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Just reviewed the edits by User Ліонкінг and this one in particular which seems to have started this thread. I must say that the edit can't be fully justified. If an Armenian name for a fortress or any other town, village or center on the territory of Azerbaijan is added, then it should be the same case with fortresses, towns and villages in Armenia which had had a considerable Azerbaijani population in the past. See Blue Mosque, Yerevan for instance, or Sisian or Alaverdi, or even Caucasian Albania historically located on the territory of Azerbaijan; see in this link where an Armenian user removes the Azeri language. The really wrong thing seems to be adding Armenian names to the de-jure Azerbaijani cities which are clearly under occupation and are recognized as Azerbaijani lands when the Azerbaijani population of those towns have been deported by force. This seems quite unjust. See how one user User talk:Vrammycowboy was rightfully banned from editing due to disruptive editing (his account was created just for the sake of adding Armenian names and disruptive editing. And this is the proper response from the admin . I just checked history of contributions of Ліонкінг against those of NovaSkola. Don't know about the other. All user Ліонкінг has done in English Misplaced Pages is disrupt when NovaSkola has created a whole line of articles. Anastasia Bukhantseva  23:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Fox News Channel, Fox News Channel controversies, user:SemDem

It would appear that the user user:SemDem is working off site to urge editors to add negative information regarding Fox News Channel. link Comment

I offered a submission that I researched and made sure to include Fox News and News Corps responses to be fair and balanced. First I was told it was a minor controversy, then I was told no one really was covering it (false), then I was told that I had to get "consensus" from everybody on this highly partisan issue (even though some here clearly have an agenda), then I was told that News Corps has nothing to do with Fox News. Enough! This is the largest donation made by a private company to the RGA AND one of the largest in history by a media organization! This issue is already on the main article on Fox News, and it has been thoroughly covered by the main stream media. The criticism has been directed towards Roger Ailes and Fox News in terms of how they can claim to be "fair and balanced" in the coverage of upcoming races as well as Fox News' reluctance to cover the controversy! As I said before, I have no trouble with a blurb that gives a strong defense of the donation...but it is disingenuous at best and partisan at worst to say that this does not deserve to be in this article.SemDem (talk) 02:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Offsite Daily Kos work. Comments of note.

We gave up on the Fox News main page, and simply added a balanced blurb on the "Fox News Controversies" page, which even INCLUDED the official Fox News and News Corps defense of the donation. It was removed.

The discussion page and the history page on the "Fox News Controversies" section is funny. First the argument was the controversy was "minor", then the argument was it wasn't covered by any other media. When a wikipedia editor listed EVERY media outlet that covered it, then the argument was it required "consensus" from everybody before it could be in the article...and the latest arguement? That NEWS CORPS is not really Fox News so it doesn't belong there.

Yeah...even though the whole controversy is around FN bias, and how they fail to even address the issue, and the fact that they won't allow ANY Dem governor to come on their show and discuss the matter, etc.

Right now, the scandal is scrubbed on Misplaced Pages.

A REQUEST FOR COMMENTS forum has been called to resolve this matter in the talk section (bottom):http://en.wikipedia.org/...

It's essentially two guys against Fox...so if you have an account on Misplaced Pages, please contribute and let your voice be heard! Misplaced Pages is always a top search result of just about any topic, so this does matter--Fox knows it.

SemDem was one of the first editors to add this information. I don't believe Blaxthos is working with those at the Daily Kos. Although we disagree, this isn't something I think he would do. I don't think this belongs, but bastardization of WP procedures is not the proper way to work. Arzel (talk) 15:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

User notified Arzel (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Also suggest that Fox News Channel and Fox News Channel Controversies should be protected for a couple of days. At the minimum FNC Controversies should be semi-protected. Arzel (talk) 15:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you're jumping to conclusions needlessly. As I said before, it could certainly be just as plausible that someone planted that post to preemptively "taint" the RFC that wasn't going his way. I'm not saying you did, but I'm saying it doesn't matter in the slightest... policy says to consider the merits of the arguments, not to ignore the results of the RFC! The only way your logic ("RFC = worthless now") could be valid is if you're counting votes (which we're not). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 15:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Needlessly? I thought you want to improve WP, not make it worse. It would be nice if you would strike your incidary comment regarding me from the talk page. I even made a point to state that I didn't think you had anything to do with it. Let us do this the right way, with respect to WP policies, because if the Daily Kos people think that this method works in the least it will only make them do it again in the future. Arzel (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There is certainly a real world agenda to damage fox news channel and we need to be aware of it. This is an area where neutrality needs to be monitored to prevent abuse although i am not sure temporary protection would solve anything. Considering the bias shown by the mainstream media in America its understandable there is such a mission to discredit Fox to prevent the left wing agenda being exposed. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If by real world agenda you mean "Fox's sloppy journalistic standards and intractible bias stemming from a political party's control of a news network" then yes. Facts are well known to possess a liberal bias. —Jeremy 19:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No i was referring to the clear left wing bias in the American "Mainstream" media, sure Fox news is right wing, but it does not mean the other media is not biased in the opposite direction. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever stopped and wondered why, however? Conservatives in the United States tend to either misrepresent or outright ignore facts that do not support their positions or weltanschauung. Because of this, facts - and anyone who reports on facts - have a liberal bias. —Jeremy 19:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Also just had to undo this edit by User:24.124.56.208 adding the same sort of material, and also mentioning wikipedia. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Both have been semi-protected. Further disruption by SemDem can be reported to AIV. I don't think there's much else to do here. TNXMan 19:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This is NOT the place to discuss whether or not Fox News is or is not biased. If an editor has an NPOV issue (as might be indicated here in previous posts), then that editor most certainly should not be editing Fox News, or at least, should so only with the utmost of extreme care and at their own peril.   Thorncrag  20:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

PhanuelB Challenges Allegations of WP:BLP Violations by Administrator MLauba

Administrator MLauba has made the following allegation Here against me.

"your persistent refusal to desist from violating the BLP policy after having been warned about it multiple times requires another time-out."

The allegation of WP:BLP violations is false. I request that neutral Misplaced Pages administrators look at this claim. I seek a retraction of the allegation.

Background: This dispute involves Murder of Meredith Kercher. A substantial majority of reliable sources say that two of the three people convicted of the crime (Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito) did not receive a fair trial. I have quoted 10 of these reliable sources Here and a group of editors who hold a slim voting majority at this point have steadfastly refused to allow any of this content into the article.

Central to the arguments made by the reliable sources I have named is a discussion of bad acts by two living persons: Rudy Guede and Giuliano Mignini. I have made significant statements critical of Rudy Guede and Giuliano Mignini. All these statements are sourced 100% and reflect facts presented by the multiple reliable sources I have named. As discussed Here, I claim that the lack of inclusion in the article of reliable sources who question the verdict constitutes violation of WP:BLP for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Please note that no one responded to this:

"Salvio: There is no WP:BLP violation against Mignini or Guede whatsoever. You are invited to show where you think there is one."

The allegations of WP:BLP violations against me by MLauba are false.

PhanuelB (talk) 16:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• In reality, User:PhanuelB is a SPA whose raison d'etre on Misplaced Pages is to alter the Murder of Meredith Kercher article to push the POV that Amanda Knox is innocent. Misplaced Pages is not his only venue; just Google "Amanda Knox"+PhanuelB for details link. A quick view of Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher and its archives should give you a feel for his editing practices; he repeatedly claims that "reliable sources" are being kept out of the article, in reality these are any commentator, blogger or anyone else who has a POV similar to his. Despite having been told multiple times by multiple editors that the article (and Misplaced Pages itself) is not the venue to push his conspiracy theories, he continues to do so and has been blocked a number of times for continually attacking the large number of editors on the article that are trying to keep NPOV. One "Knox is innocent" editor has already been indefinitely blocked for similar behaviour, and another is topic-banned.

  PhanuelB believes that the article violates BLP as regards to Knox, but is quite happy to violate BLP as regards other people, notably Guede and Mignini. He does not seem to understand that violations of WP:BLP and WP:SYNTH regarding these people are not acceptable, nor that his proposed additions to the article violate these and WP:UNDUE. The fact that the trial was controversial is already included, and sourced. I have been acting as a neutral admin on the article and have repeatedly explained, patiently, our policies to PhanuelB and the numerous new editors that turn up (there is obviously an off-wiki issue here). For this, I have been attacked myself on a number of occasions as biased; I don't care about this (obviously - having been an admin for 3 years I've had far worse) but it is time that the community drew a line in the sand on this issue. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• By the way, PhanuelB wasn't blocked because of BLP-vios, but because their behaviour was considered disruptive in many different ways. That said, I think that to list all the insults thrown at a semi-public figure, such as Mignini, doesn't comply with our BLP requirements. It's not only a matter of sourcing, but it's a matter of undue weight. That said, I'd like for the community to start discussing a topic ban on PhanuelB from all edits related to the murder of Meredith Kercher broadly construed. I'm not starting this discussion because I'm deeply involved. However, it's high time this disruption ceased. Salvio 18:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Black Kite and Salvio give no example to backup the false allegation of WP:BLP violations by me against Mignini and Guede.

    The allegation that I am a SPA is false. In fact I had made Misplaced Pages edits over two years ago under another username. The identity of the other username and the justification for its use under Legitimate Uses was fully disclosed and discussed with Administrator Amalthea following similar attempts made within hours of my arrival at the MK page to get me banned based on other false allegations.

    Two editors with a specific POV have been previously banned. I do not believe the bans against these two editors were consistent with Misplaced Pages policy. Current editors and administrators are threatening to ban three others with POV's opposed to theirs. Disputes over NPOV cannot be resolved by banning only those editors with a specific POV.PhanuelB (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

    • As per usual, PhanuelB misses the point (and persists in categorising other editors as biased - you would've thought he'd have learnt the lesson by now, really...). Those two editors, as well as PhanuelB, were blocked / topic-banned not for their POV, but for canvassing and/or persistently attacking other editors; links are here and here. The warnings against the others are for exactly the same reasons. Whilst the crusaders for Knox's innocence continue to repeat such behaviour at the article (latest one - see the bottom of the diff), the end result will inevitably be the same. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
    • As far as I'm concerned, it's not about having a different POV, but of trying to slant the article so that it fits that same POV. This was your very first edit under this username. Salvio 18:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• If persistent mis-use of parts of the World Wide Web to personally attack, intimidate, and harrass other disputants is the issue, note that should this ever go to arbitration it will be an arbitration case where people can cite reliable sources on the matter:

  Andrea Vogt (2009-05-28). "Amanda Knox case creates a police investigation at home". Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

  I don't speak for anyone else, but I suspect that I'm not the only one who doesn't want Misplaced Pages to be embroiled in this external dispute, or abused by any editor in the way that the web logs have been. Uncle G (talk) 19:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

  • Hence why I suspect that (at least) topic-banning the POV warriors would appear to be the only way forward. I seriously don't understand why, even if they are approaching the subject with a POV, such editors appear incapable of editing collegially. Unless they're all incarnations of the same few editors, of course. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• Any reason why PhanuelB should not be indefinitely blocked as there appears no prospect of him ceasing to be disruptive? The block can be lifted if he agrees to a topic ban from anything to do with Meredith Kercher and Amanda Knox. 19:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.112.150 (talk)
  • A substantial majority of reliable sources say that two of the three people convicted of the crime (Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito) did not receive a fair trial. Potential inclusion of all the sources in question has been discussed — quite past the point of endurance, I might add — at the article talk page. Should it be of interest, I present this (rather bewildering) diff: it offers not just a curious interpretation of Misplaced Pages NPOV guidelines, but also reveals considerable POV-pushing on the part of PhanuelB. A case has been made against MLauba as if he is the one who has contravened policies, when tougher action against PhanuelB appears long overdue itself. The current situation at the Kercher page is hardly conspiratorial (at least, if viewed in an objective and reasoned manner). Claims of some sort of "inside job" hell-bent on silencing opinions have been perpetuated to excess, and in an unjust fashion, from the minds of a number of editors (two of whom have, in one manner or another, had their access to the topic barred) who have crusaded for the far-from-infallible "truth" regarding the asserted innocence of Amanda Knox. I strongly urge PhanuelB to consider a drastic re-examination of his attitudes to editing at Misplaced Pages. Unless this is attempted, a minimum of a lengthy topic ban seems inevitable, and that will bump up the number of editors restricted from the topic to three. Please do not permit this to happen. SuperMarioMan 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the admin action taken by MLauba and, given that a number of editors find PhanuelB to be generally disruptive, the action was quite measured. The recent block was reviewed by three other admins and upheld three times.

I agree with the comments of SuperMarioMan and others above. PhanuelB seems interested only in making dramatic proposals for wholesale changes to the article which stand no chance of being approved of by other editors. There is room on the talkpage (perhaps even a gap in the market) for an editor who is interested in representing PhanuelB's POV in a constructive and analytical manner and I would implore PhanuelB to consider whether (s)he might be interested in filling that role by concentrating on detail, making more realistic proposals and arguing narrower points.

I don't think this is the right forum for discussing whether allegations made by editors (multiple editors, including me) that PhanuelB's talkpage comments have breached BLP are fair or not. --FormerIP (talk) 23:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of any activities from many years ago, PhanuelB (talk · contribs) today acts as a disruptive Single Purpose Account, here to Right a Great Wrong and who treats Misplaced Pages like a battleground. Multiple invitations to moderate their tone and edit in a collegial manner have remained unheeded. Their attempts to paint one of three persons convicted as the sole killer in a murder case as well as diabolize the prosecutor reek of WP:SYNTH and constitute WP:BLP violations (extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing), and PhanuelB refuses to even acknowledge that his behaviour might be questionable.

The vast majority of their edits under their present incarnation have consisted in either tendentious editing or multiple violations of WP:NPA against their fellow editors, including ascribing of nefarious motivations, direct attacks, attempts at intimidation, bullying and threats. As a consequence, regardless of any claims of a productive past that cannot be substantiated, PhanuelB under this identity appears to be a net negative. As none of their edits relate to anything else but the Murder of Meredith Kercher case, a topic ban would be pointless. I believe at this stage, either a 6-12 months block or more simply a community ban are the simplest and least bureaucratic way to put this affair to rest. MLauba 02:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

MLauba has made false allegations of WP:BLP violations and has yet to provide a link to any such violations.

The other allegations above are completely and categorically false. I have provided 10 reliable secondary sources ( a substantial majority of the reliable sources) who criticize the prosecutor and state that two of the three convicted are innocent. Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to be about what reliable secondary sources are saying.PhanuelB (talk) 03:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Blacklisted title?

Hi, I received the following email from a user today:

Is this a prank? I've not heard of blacklisted titles. Bob the Wikipedian 18:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• It's the capital letters. Moving it to Richard Erdman (artist) will work. Doesn't look very notable (or at least sourced) at the moment, though ... Black Kite (t) (c) 18:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense. Thanks for your help. Bob the Wikipedian 18:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There are blacklisted titles though such as Pon and Zi a popular web comic that due to not being deemed "notable" enough has been deleted, and because of repeated attempts to re-create it no new pages with that name can be formed. If you try to create a page whose title has been blacklisted you will receive this message. Just so ya know.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

FYI: That page is not blacklisted, it is protected to prevent it from being created again. Similar effect, but completely different mechanism. —DoRD (talk) 00:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Text on User:JanDeFietser

Hello,

First: sorry for my English.

On User:JanDeFietser there's a dutch text in which I'm accused to have done certain things. With this accusions this user is importing a conflict from the dutch wiki from 1 year ago as well as it could be seen as a personal attack: "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence." (citated from Misplaced Pages:NPA.) This attack can be found in the sentence: "Tevens wijs ik erop dat Basvb die blokkering OT bewerkstelligde middels een valse en onvolledige voorstelling van zaken en dat JZ85 verzuimde zich zelfs over het ueberhaupt bestaan van die emails te vergewissen." (Citation from User:JanDeFietser)

Please delete those false accusions.

Greetings, NL_Bas (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC) (fastest responce at Dutch usertalk)

A bad penny always turns up.

Please see the official warning to JZ85 on 25 July 2010

and please now issue our beloved compatriot Basvb the same warning for this sly provocation (also see WP:HOUND, WP:HOUNDING, WP:WIKIHOUND, WP:WIKIHOUNDING, WP:STALK)

(Basvb should not excuse himself for writing in English but for providing incomplete information instead). Frankly, my rather short explanation on my user page for my presence on the English wiki does not contain any false accusation at all - and, pardon my French, what Basvb does now and here is something like pissing into the wind. When I explain my presence on the English wiki on my personal user page, that is what it is, a statement that explains my presence on the English wiki, and not importing any "conflict" anywhere (just in case someone forgot: a conflict needs at least two parties). That is what Basvb is trying to do now himself, stirring up things. => Note that he just could have asked me anything about my user page statement and he did not do that...

If Basvb insists on discussing my presence on the English wiki or my statement about this presence: note that as far he is mentioned shortly in that explanation, it is not about what he did, but rather about what he mischievously failed to perform (: giving honest and complete information to admin JZ85, who then blocked me without even any form of defense on the Dutch wiki, against all principles of proper and diligent "conflict" resolution and solely based on Basvb's dishonestly provided incomplete information - note that Basvb tries to repeat that vicious game here again on the English wiki).

The case that Basvb here calls a "conflict" is still pending, and absolutely not something "from 1 year ago", for he knows himself very well that I am still waiting for many months for a reply from him to my questions about his very own behaviour: Basvb threatened me on the Dutch wikichat on November 6th, 2009 - and after that he concocted on the same day behind my back that current block on the Dutch wiki, against which I was not allowed to defend myself (again: there is something very very wrong on the Dutch wiki).

Bas, who do you try to fool? If you notice evidence is lacking, you should invite me to deliver it, and I politely offer to provide it, easy as that - but what are you after? Again, there is something very very wrong on the Dutch Misplaced Pages and YOU YOURSELF played a serious role in that, Bas (and are still playing, as I see here now). Strictly seen, you even committed a criminal act with your threats on November 6th (art. 284 Sr): do you want that exposed here? (yes, I kept a saved copy of that conversation on the Dutch wikichat)

Last month there was also that user "Grimbeer", whose solely reason to open an account here on the English wiki was to stir up things (see his edit history).

Now Basvb seems trying to play the same game again as he did in November 2009 on the Dutch wiki, by fomenting an admin while mischievously giving incomplete information. Why this intrigue here now? And why do you try to provoke me here on the English wiki? Be wise, step back.

There was already a warning to Dutch users on the English Misplaced Pages here NOT to discuss the Dutch affairs. Is Basvb trying to lure me into something here now? I advise that he takes my words on my user page for granted and discuss things elsewhere. As he probably also knows very well, everyone who wants to discuss this matter is welcome on my weblog where a completely free and open discussion is possible and where nobody gets censored or blocked http://jandefietser.web-log.nl/jandefietser/ : I think that is a much better place than here on the English wiki. I protest against this: DO NOT PLAY THOSE GAMES HERE

=> => I quote: "There will be no more trolling, pot stirring, tag teaming, sly provocation, playground-level taunting, or other general silliness and game playing of the sort that has occurred over the past few days, on here and on user talk pages. (...) let me make this crystal clear. Any further continuance of this beyond this point, anywhere in Misplaced Pages, will result in indefinite revocation of editing privileges here at the English Misplaced Pages. This includes any attempts to gloat or have the last word. This ends. Now. This doesn't belong here; we don't want this here; we're not going to have this here; and continued attempts to bring this here will result in summary ejection from the project forthwith. Uncle G (talk) 16:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC) "

Who is interested can read the previous discussion here.Bas, I can provide evidence for your serious misbehaviour and even criminal behavior that you (perhaps do not) want, but now get off my back here on the English wiki and play your sly games on the Dutch wiki, or defend your behaviour on my weblog where things can discussed freely Bas, or in court for that matter, but NOT HERE. I think all or most other users on the English wiki will agree with me--JanDeFietser (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I very much agree that your wp.nl-related problems should not be discussed here. I am blocking JanDeFietser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) indefinitely for legal threats ("and even criminal behavior" ... "or in court for that matter"). No opinion whether the other user also needs a block. That should help settle the issue for now.  Sandstein  20:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The user has unblanked the page, but I'm concerned that the content (in both the english and dutch) appears to simply be disparaging users on the dutch wikipedia, and at the very least, does not help to contribute to the project in any way and should be disallowed. Any thoughts from others? GiftigerWunsch 20:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted the apparently problematic Dutch text again. But if the indef block sticks - and it should, really, independently from the legal threat: the user has been asked to stop continuing his .nl disputes here and judging from the rant above has not really gotten the message - the page can simply be replaced with an {{indefblocked}} tag.  Sandstein  20:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Dammit, I had a lengthy reply but by the time the edit conflicts had gone away, so had the need for my lengthy reply. Good block, Sandstein, though the wikilawyering has already begun. JanDeFietser has previously been advised how to handle their complaint (i.e. meta or OTRS) and chose to ignore that advice. The very ANI report they linked to specified how the community would handle a repeat of their past behaviour, so I'm flabbergasted that they chose to (a) keep up their userpage, (b) blame the editor who reported this incident, and (c) use the previous ANI report as some form of justification for their own misbehaviour. TFOWR 21:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, this is rather a shame. The text in question is clearly a case of bringing the nlwp dispute into en.wp and this text should probably have been removed in the previous tussle about the nl.wp dispute. Had it been removed at that time, then a user would not have had to come in now asking it to be removed (properly so in my opinion). Still, again JdF sees it fit to start with his legalese in response. He was warned multiple times for this in the past and it was this disruptive behavior of legalese and continuance of this discussion, that was the problem leading to his block. A report of a continuance cannot be considered to fall under the previous warnings for continuance in my opinion. A repetition of legal threats however, is a serious problem. I really wish this hadn't been necessary. I worked on an article with JdF even today. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Did by any chance any of u english readers read what was in that Dutch passage on this user's page? It was a statement in responso of the accusations of legal threats and actions, stating JdF would NOT go to that point.... I am native Dutch speaker, and am flubbergasted by such ignorance of this particulary case on the English wiki. This was not about making threats, but about stating there IS no threat and there will be no threat nor legal action. Besides it was the Users choice to put it there, so AGF and put it back. Maybe better to ask JdF to make that statement in English instead of in Dutch, but as u can see by the comments he made before, this is not about importing conflicts, or about being disruptive. Assume Good Faith people! Tjako (talk) 23:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I did, yes. It referenced the nl.wiki issues that JanDeFietser had been told (at the ANI report JanDeFietser links to above) not to raise on en.wiki. It was for that reason that some of the content was removed, prompting JanDeFietser to post here, which in turn resulted in JanDeFietser being blocked (due, in part, to the comments posted here at ANI, but also, I would imagine, because it's clear that JanDeFietser is continuing precisely the behaviour they were told not to continue). I disagree that this is not about importing conflicts or being disruptive: JanDeFietser has continued a conflict that arose on nl.wiki. JanDeFietser has continued after warnings and after having been blocked once before. TFOWR 23:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • The block is not for that statement, but for the legal threat that he made here at English Misplaced Pages, above. But I also don't see any amount of good faith that would allow me to draw any reasonable conclusion other than that Jan is trying to continue a dispute from a different Misplaced Pages here. "Assume good faith" does not mean "ignore the obvious." Whatever's going on at Dutch Misplaced Pages, it doesn't seem likely to make English Misplaced Pages better, and I don't think anyone here is likely to be able to help resolve it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • (e/c 2) The statement on his userpage is a continuance of the nlwiki dispute on the enwiki. This statement should have removed in the past. NL_bas requested it be removed for that reason. Had JdF removed it or endorsed removing it, there would not have been a problem. Instead he replies with one of his 500 word legalese essays once again. A thing he has been warned multiple times in the past not to do such a thing. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• I replied FisherQueen on my talk page. Furthermore: when one gets accused one has the right to defend against those accusations. That is what JanDeFietser did. There was debate on 'who started' , but then also there was a solution: the debate ended. But then all starts again when NL_Bas brings it up again. What else can JanDeFietser do than defend himself against those false accusations? Should he be blocked for defending himself against renewed slander and haunting?? I dont agree. He should be deblocked, and monitored. And then -when he contributes in a normal way here- there is no problem at all here on en-wp. JanDeFietser said:'get off my back here on the English wiki' in response of the renewed accusations in his direction and tried to preven importing any nl.wp problems here. So please unblock, because this block is quite erroneous and based on false arguments. Tjako (talk) 00:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Drop this. Drop this now. Enough's enough. It was foolish of JanDeFietser to pick this up. Just letting the user page edit stand would have closed the issue, with the provocative material (that pre-dated the prior discussion in any case) gone, the complainant satisified, and JanDeFietser free to continue editing in peace. Everyone would have been happy, quickly and quietly, no blocks, no fuss, no lengthy rants and bickering. But good sense did not prevail. It's equally foolish of you to pick this up. This stops. You stop. Now. Uncle G (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
    • I want stop this as soon as possible, but i think it is higly immoral to block people of good faith this way on the most ugly and non-arguments. It's a black page in en.wp history. And yes now i stop. Tjako (talk) 01:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Bendfish

Bendfish (talk · contribs) has been editing for some time now, and yet they have a long history of creating articles almost out of whole cloth, with no sources, adding long plot summaries without the single iota of a source, creating articles based on rumors, and, in some cases, flat-out vandalism. (See their edit to Nanny McPhee and the Big Bang). I told them a couple of days ago that I had considered filing a vandalism notice against them if they didn't stop, but they continue in the same vein. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Steve Tyrell

There's some kind of edit war going on at this article. References are being removed and added back and removed again, and there are multiple different people involved. I don't really undertsand a good way to look at the page history to sort it out. Maye it should be protected? I haven't edited the article at all.--96.224.145.54 (talk) 20:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted to the last good version. This is the first edit in a month. If the activity picks back up, please report this to WP:RFPP. Thank you for noticing this. TNXMan 20:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:BACKLOG is backlogged

I only wish I was being funny. We have images in Category:User-created public domain images that have been in backlog since 2002. Articles in Category:Articles needing additional references are dating back to 2006. Same with about 4 other categories. So, could a group of people (admins too) take a look WP:BACKLOG and see if we could knock some of this mess out, please? Thanks. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Xnacional (talk · contribs)

Xnacional (talk · contribs) has received several blocks for edit-warring. His one-month block ended 29 July, but for most the intervening time he's edited under 205.211.213.218 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Under this IP and his registered account, he has resumed or initiated edit wars at WWIV and Template:Star Wars. This is exactly the kind of edit that led to several blocks. The user has not heeded multiple requests from multiple editors to use the talk page to discuss edits, and seems content to edit war, be blocked, rinse, repeat. The IP has apparently been blocked on other languages' Wikipedias. *shrug* Thought I'd give a heads up. Although the editor does apparently update some facts and figures about the War on Terror (although uncited, so I dunno...), to me he seems more trouble than he's worth. --EEMIV (talk) 05:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

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