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Deleted Article Michael Oliver (referee)

Hi, you deleted the article about a football referee Michael Oliver due to his lack of notability which was probably spot on at the time. However, this guy has now been promoted to the Select Group Referees who referee games in the Premier League and thus liable to become a higher profile person.

You will notice from the Select Group article that he is the only one who doesn't have an article. I suspect the very first controversial decision he makes would result in a lot of totally biased vitriol being written about him as a new article so it may be worth restoring the deleted one as a starting point. (I don't know if I've raised the query in the right way, so apologies if I haven't approached this request in the right manner.) Seedybob (talk) 08:43, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

So sorry I missed this message earlier. I wasn't sure if by your message you think that he's more notable now and that references would be available to create a proper article? If that's the case, I'd have no problem undeleting it so it can be updated/expanded. Shell 08:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

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Race and Intelligence Case

Hi Shell... I noticed your recent votes on the R&I ArbCom case, and in particular your comments on Ludwigs2's views of the mediation. A couple of days ago I noticed this mediation where Ludwigs2 was mediator, which was closed earlier today. The consensus conclusion of the mediation was to rename the article Israel and the apartheid analogy to Israel and Apartheid. I took no part in the mediation or the article, having only come across it by accident. Ludwigs2's comments on the R&I PD talk page had made me wonder about judgment, and seeing this mediation and it's (in my opinion) potentially provocative conclusion made me wonder further. Consequently, I thought it worthwhile to provide you with a pointer to this other mediation case for your information, and in case it assisted you in your deliberations. I will post a note to Ludwigs2, advising that I have made this post, in the interests of transparency. EdChem (talk) 06:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Having mediated a similar case before, I actually see a lot of good things that Ludwigs2 did there. He's tried to get everyone involved and reminded people along the way that the outcome isn't binding. There are times when a mediator has to say "well enough". The issue under discussion is so politically charged that you're very unlikely to get complete agreement no matter how much effort is put in. When arguments start to be repeated and things start to turn personal, it's often better to close a mediation - a mediation that ends with editors at each other's throats is often worse than no mediation at all.

That said, I'd be surprised if the decisions made during the mediation stand up outside of it; as I said, it simply too politically charged a subject for any reasoned discussion to prevail. Shell 07:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks for your thoughts and perspective. I guess I was looking at the consensus conclusion and thinking that trying to implement it would be somewhere between provocative and explosive. Of course, the politically charge nature of the issue is not Ludwigs2's fault. EdChem (talk) 07:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Clarification request

Since you were the drafter of this topic ban, could you please clarify whether edits like this (notice the quote) and this breach the letter or the spirit of the ban? The same question was recently asked by the restricted person himself, although after the edits. Offliner (talk) 07:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If you have a concern that someone is violating a topic ban, arbitration enforcement is the appropriate venue, however I believe something was said during the proposed decision phase that historical articles hadn't been at issue before and weren't likely to be an issue. It would be terribly disappointing if the participants from that case started disputing with each other elsewhere :( Shell 08:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

But was the topic ban meant to cover pre-1917 Russia or not? The wording is unclear. Personally, I interpret it as a topic ban from all articles related to Russia, since Russia is one of the "former Soviet republics". Offliner (talk) 08:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to take this to WP:AE, since I have no desire to play a part in the latest round of the ridiculous battleground initiated by Colchicum. But many people were looking for a clarification, but no one asked, so I did. Offliner (talk) 09:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. The dispute was about the Soviet Union era and later. And honestly, if you want to drop the issue then perhaps you should stop watching what these folks are doing and commenting on it? Continuing to bring things up isn't disengaging. Shell 11:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

JanDeFietser

• JanDeFietser (talk · contribs · checkuser · block user · block log · edit count)
• User talk:JanDeFietser#August 2010
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Text on User:JanDeFietser
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive627#Ductch Misplaced Pages Drama

I am still of the belief that there is a simple and quiet way out of this, which I've been trying to keep from escalating to involve several other editors in a big row. I'd appreciate it if you or another arbitrator could take a look and see whether you can handle this off-wiki, privately. There's some sort of external dispute, here, in addition to the Dutch Misplaced Pages dispute, which the arbitration committee off-wiki is probably best placed to handle. I expect that JanDeFietser would also like this handled out of the public view of the other disputants, and (given the timing of the user page content relative to the AN/I discussion earlier this year, and xyr edits in the months since) I don't think that xe is intentionally trying to bring this into the English Misplaced Pages, and would be happy to find some route for xem to be able to go back to productive editing. I really hoped that this could have been handled without fuss, blocks, and palaver in just two edits. But I think that we can still come back from the brink here, if arbitrators are willing to talk to JanDeFietser. Uncle G (talk) 14:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Reminder

Quackguru, for the past month you have been reverting every edit to the article with very little discussion. Please remember that you are required to discuss concerns rather than revert or your topic ban will be reinstated. Shell babelfish 11:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I have been commenting a lot on the discussion page.

Rosner, Anthony L. (July 27, 2010). "Death by Chiropractic: Another Misbegotten Review". ChiroACCESS. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accesddate= ignored (help)

Please remember this reference is unreliable and does not belong in the chiropractic page.

A 2010 systematic review found there is no good evidence to assume that chiropractic neck manipulation is effective for any medical condition.

Without explanation for the second time an editor removed the above sentence, added duplicate material about risk-benefit that is in another section, and added an unreliable source from ChiroACCESS. This unreliable reference is WP:SPAM.

The word Critics is unsourced and failed verification and is original research. I previously explained this on the discussion page. There are too many problems to list with the recent controversial edits. The other editors are not going to change there minds. QuackGuru (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to be a bit more clear, it really doesn't matter that you think you're right and they're wrong. You now have several people disputing your edits to the article and have continued to revert any changes they make while your only comment on the talk page has been to tell them they're wrong. That's not a discussion. Remember, instead of continuing to revert, you need to actually talk to these other editors and try to resolve the problem. Failing that, use dispute resolution to engage other editors and form a good consensus. You cannot continue to refuse to allow anyone else to edit the article even though you think they're wrong. Shell 07:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

In your point of you it is irrelevant what editors do to an article like adding spam. I think if editors like yourself tried to focus more on article content and what edits improved the article it would be better for the article if that is your goal. I think the reference can be added to Misplaced Pages's spam list. I think an admin could tell the editor who added the spam to the article to stop adding it or remove it. After all the goal is to improve the article. Do you think the reference is spam or unreliable? I think this is a relevant question if improving the article is the goal. QuackGuru (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable references and spam are two very, very different things. The question is not what I think, but have you discussed this with other editors and what do they think? Does everyone agree that this reference shouldn't be used? Does everyone agree the reference is spam? If so, then there's no worries. If not, then you need to be discussing the issue rather than simply reverting based on your own views. Shell 21:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

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Request for help in ending the battleground

My plan after returning to editing was to disengage from the battleground. I tried to focus entirely on creating new content , but immediately after I returned, Colchicum first attacked me and then decided to launch the latest round of the battleground . Biophys then followed and attacked me as well. I'm trying refrain from replying and defending myself, since I believe doing that is exactly what keeps the battleground alive.

What I did try to do was to make peace with one of my former content opponents: . I believe that mutually agreeing not to make accusations against each other is the only voluntary way to end this battleground.

Biophys rejected the offer, and in fact used my peace offer against me, to attack me further. He did this by twisting my words:

"I just would like to notice that Offliner came to my talk page to suggest that we are in a state of war"

I offer peace — and Biophys uses the opportunity to claim that I am, in fact, declaring war. Biophys did something similar during the WP:Russavia-Biophys arbitration when he tried to twist Ellol's words, claiming that Ellol had presented threats using criminal slang.

Colchicum also rejected my peace offer outright.

So I think it is clear from these replies that the general athmosphere is too combatitive for any voluntary restrictions and promises to work. Therefore, I believe the only way is to impose a draconian general interaction ban. It should prohibit editors from making accusations and filing noticeboard reports against each other. It should, however, leave room for constructive collaboration on articles.

I suggest the following text: " are prohibited from making any kind of accusations or filing noticeboard reports against each other."

"Accusations" should be broadly defined. The editors should include all editors from the EEML and from the recent Russavia-Biophys arbcase, as well as me and Colchicum.

At this point, I really think this is the only way to end the battleground. Offliner (talk) 22:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear things are still frustrating in this area. If you'd like to propose the case be amended to include a wide interaction ban, you can certainly do that. I've noticed a few flareups just recently, so you may be right that this isn't going to go away otherwise. In the meantime, you might find it considerably less stressful if you decided to ignore the drama and not let yourself get drawn back into any of the issues that come up. If you find yourself without an idea what to work on, I've got an article sitting on the backburner because I think my writing sounds terrible and could really use some copy editing or suggestions for improvement; it's also a crazy out of the way area which might be a welcome change. Shell 23:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. Well, I am sorry, but I can't leave this, uh, made-up story unanswered. I haven't attacked Offliner after he returned to editing, I asked the Committee to consider putting him on an interaction ban before his siteban was suspended. IMO it was not an attack, it was a perfectly reasonable request given his history. And seeing how he is unable to disengage and how the things deteriorated since he (rather than anybody else) had got unbanned, I am getting increasingly confident that it would be a good idea. I withhold my opinion at to whether it was reasonable for the Committee to unban him at all. However, I stand by my assessment of his post-ban comments on Malik Shabazz and Kotniski as outrageous. That was hardly disengagement from the battleground, quite the opposite. And he can't claim that he was provoked there.

Concerning "the latest round of the battleground" I have launched (this is at least the third time over the last few days that Offliner repeats this not quite kind and even less accurate mantra: the latest round of the ridiculous battleground initiated by Colchicum, the latest round of this ridiculous battleground initiated and maintained by User:Colchicum, Colchicum first attacked me and then decided to launch the latest round of the battleground – how's that for disengagement?) I believe that reporting violations of Arbcom remedies, which is what I did, doesn't constitute battleground behavior. Correct me if I am wrong. At least WP:BATTLE doesn't claim anything of this sort, in agreement with the common sense. I invite everyone concerned to review my report at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Russavia. I may understand why some people are unhappy about it, but it is not my fault, they shouldn't have repeatedly violated Arbcom remedies in the first place, whereas my report doesn't violate anything. On a side note, Igny's conduct there was indeed appalling.

Now, concerning the "peace offer", it looks like it was "an offer you couldn't refuse", eh? This is ridiculous. Offliner is free to disengage whenever he wish (until it may be too late), for this he doesn't need an authorization from others. I am not going to sign any special treaties with him, neither do I have to.

As a finding of fact justifying any sort of general interaction ban his story would be preposterous. Nobody else is to blame that he is unable to disengage. A draconian interaction ban for him may indeed be warranted though, exactly my point. But maybe he is clever enough to withdraw on his own. Colchicum (talk) 00:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

What would likely help is everyone either a) dropping the sticks and getting along or failing that b) ignoring each other completely. Surely there are other editors out there who can open enforcement or requests for sanction when needed? I found your recent comments about Russavia particularly disturbing - on one hand you claim interest in disengaging and on the other disparage Russavia and tell others not to bother working with him. I think it's becoming pretty clear who's learned from the case and who hasn't. Shell 12:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Ach, nevermind - after looking at it further, Russavia pulled that diff out from last March. *sigh* Shell 16:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Race and intelligence et al.

With the proceedings completed, I would like to offer some observations. I appreciate Coren looking for ways to think outside the box, however, wetting toes in content and enforcing the broadening of editors' content perspectives did not go very far. (Part of the issue is that ultimately even WP:RS is driven by consensus—but another conversation.)
  WP is about working together constructively. When edit wars ensue, followed by requests for enforcement or arbitration, those are symptoms of the initial breakdown of collegial interaction. From my own experience, it is possible to have raging disagreements on subject matter, but to still conduct discourse collegially and constructively—all that is required is for editors to be nice to each other. The hand-wringing over "civil POV pushers" is, IMHO, overdone. As long as editors stick to sources debate can be had. I have successfully debated sock-puppetting paid POV pushers, and so, for me, the choice is simple: obtain the opposition's sources to insure fair and accurate representation; research and obtain your own reputable sources; form a cogent editorial argument—OR—whine about "POV pushers" not listening to what you're saying.
  It is only when those who fail to achieve dominance of their POV resort to accusations, sock-puppets, et al. that discourse disintegrates. And once that happens, that Humpty Dumpty, while not beyond repair, takes quite the effort to reconstitute. I suggest that ending the disparagement and denigration of editors be made a top priority. ArbCom should ask themselves, why would anyone new come to WP to contribute when they are very likely to be attacked just for showing up?
   Lastly, escalating sanctions (indefinite topic bans, etc.) are likely only to worsen the situation in the long run, as the opportunity for one to eliminate their opposition outweighs the ban's usefulness as a deterrent in promoting good behavior. Short blocks (WP cold turkey) sooner for poor manners would be much more effective.
   I've left this for you as you are new to the fold as of the last election and aren't afraid to change your mind about things. ("A straightforward response, the only one so far to specifically talk about changing one's mind. Worth a look at the helm."—my thoughts on your answers to my questions during the election process.) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree about Coren; I always appreciate people who are willing to try to come up with new ideas, even if they don't work. I think it's the best way to stumble on something that's really going to make a difference.

I also completely agree that working well together is the cornerstone of the real work that gets done on Misplaced Pages. The sticking point always seems to be that we can't (as a whole) agree on where the line should be drawn. Some people give established editors more leeway, others think that's silly. People disagree on what constitutes incivil language and everyone has a different level that they seem comfortable with. We can almost always agree when someone has gone too far (even then there are disagreements at times) but stopping things before they get there is often difficult. I'm not sure I have a good solution for getting people to work together, at least not one that ArbCom can implement - I've always felt I was able to do more towards that end through mediation (formal or informal) and helping people understand each other. Maybe if we had a group of people who were good at that sort of thing, we could send them into areas that were having difficulty and see if they could get everyone back on track.

I do understand a bit where people are coming from about civil POV pushers though. Usually it's not that they're civil or that they push a POV, more often it's that they simply repeat themselves ad naseum despite well formed arguments and continue to revert from time to time (not enough to be sanctioned usually). Situations like that can take an extrodinar amount of time away from other contributors; I've seen people continue to argue their position and revert even after all other editors were calmly disagreeing with them, multiple RfCs indicated that their viewpoint wasn't consensus etc. What do you usually do when you encounter a situation like that?

I've certainly seen cases where editors tried to use topic bans to eliminate people with other viewpoints. I've also seen sockpuppet reports used the same way. A the heart of it though is that "us-vs-them" mentality, which I think is less a problem that stems from Misplaced Pages and more about some of these external disputes. It's probably a part of human nature and not one we're likely to sanction out of existence here. I do like the idea of shorter blocks when problems spring up rather than long bans, but that would require some closer attention on problem areas by admins and I'm not sure how we encourage that to happen. Good thoughts though :-) Shell 16:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

(Apologies this came out a lot longer than intended!) There are differences between saying something when one is upset and simply being denigrating and disparaging or being truly rude. Admittedly these are subjective, but "being nice" need not degenerate into political correctness police.

The sticky issue is, of course, when editor "A" says editor "B" is being "X" or did "X" and "B" fends off all criticism as a "personal attack." The corollary is when editors revert WP:IDONTLIKEIT edits by calling them "vandalism." I don't have a simple answer, then again, maybe it's as simple as a 2-week block for the first person who calls the other names which should not be used in genteel conversation. (!) Having had some small experience where I've been asked to mediate, my experience at least has been that it only works when the mediator is also a subject matter expert respected by all feuding sides—that is, editors are open to suggested content compromises which they might otherwise reject. Even the best sources brought to bear on a dispute will solve nothing without that personal aspect also being in play. The flip side there is that if someone mediates based solely on attempting to find some (artificial) middle ground—let us remember that the middle between two opposite positions is not the definition of NPOV—then matters can be left worse of than when they started. A group of editors willing to step in, yes; but they need to know the subject matter as well as the editors in dispute.

About the civil (or perhaps even strident) POV pushers, let's start with the RFC's. That they fail, often repeatedly and even spectacularly, is inevitable. As the parties in conflict are likeliest also the best informed, there's little to be gained by going to a wider community of less-well informed individuals; these newcomers are little more than fresh meat for proselytizers from both/all sides. Moreover, the (incorrect) meme that NPOV is somewhere in the middle gives the minority/non-consensus view the edge; in the situation where 10 people say "A" and 2 people say "B", an independent subject matter expert may conclude "A" (or "B" for that matter, you never know) whereas the WP uninformed and uninitiated invariably attempt to cobble together some sort of allegedly, but never in reality "NPOV," Franken-middle-ground, ("A"+"B")/2. For this reason, RFCs tend to be ineffective and to escalate, not resolve, conflicts.

Moving on to the endless repetition, per my earlier comments, it is up to the editors to simply deal with it. So, maybe an article gets permanently tagged as "POV." It's not the end of civilization as we know it. Eventually the article in question will achieve something between stability, equilibrium, or stalemate. A sidebar to this is that when editors get stuck in a revert war, it's really more of a time loop; no one is thinking about a solution at that point, and it's sometimes possible for someone to come in and create a better content solution which satisfies both parties—it's not uncommon for both sides in an argument to be wrong. (Another case requiring a subject matter expert uninvolved in the immediate conflict.)

As I've said, RFCs while intended to assist in conflict resolution, accomplish just the opposite. I can even make the case that the entire dispute resolution process, as structured, is an invitation to conflict as it widens the participants, bringing in editors unfamiliar and unprepared for the subject matter, then escalating to admins et al. who are likely equally unfamiliar and unprepared—but with authority to pass judgement and sentences based on appearances; meanwhile any in such a position of authority with subject matter familiarity who can be most helpful must recuse themselves because someone on some side of the conflict will accuse them of bias.

My best advice is let the editors simply deal with it and toss out anyone who starts being grossly insulting. Yes, there will also be bona fide frustration; but if in good faith, it need also only be apologized for promptly. Part of any solution is that editors do need some leeway at times; the challenge is maintaining the atmosphere of good faith when that has not yet been established among the participants. When good faith is not well established, it's pretty much guilty until proven innocent, I'm afraid.

In the long term, it is only when editors, whether self-identified as being in conflict or acknowledged as such by the wider community, agree to work together that circumstances will improve. And, most of all, that starts with simply being nice to each other. :-) Best, PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 22:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions

Your understanding is perfectly correct. The arbitration enforcement board itself was only created to provide a central point so that actionable abuses didn't get lost. In its early days, as one of the arbitration clerks of the era, I was often the only admin to regularly follow the board and perform the required actions.

Perhaps the proposed decision needs to be tweaked a bit more to emphasize the pivotal role of administrator discretion, because at the moment few admins are willing to get involved and the restrictive implementation of the probation has not been effective, in the long run, in encouraging admins to act. Many admins these days also seem to be rather timid, and that cannot be good for the health of the encyclopedia. Tasty monster (=TS ) 01:14, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad that problem was pointed out on the talk page. I believe that is one of the reasons behind moving to more standard discretionary sanctions, but perhaps further emphasis is going to be important. Shell 13:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Some references:

• Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Archive_13#Decision_enforcement
• "22:02, 24 March 2006 SchmuckyTheCat m (5,475 bytes) (moved User:SchmuckyTheCat/Arbitration enforcement to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#Decision_enforcement)

The page was moved to its current location in May, 2009 --TS 13:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Concern

I have a concern that you are not treating me in the same way as you are treating others on the proposed decision talkpage. I have genuine concerns and am trying to express them, maybe in a politically naive way but at least in an honest way. Even if you have already formed an opinion on me as some upstart who needs to be brought into line I would appreciate it if you would leave this to the PD rather than popping up with chummy comments to certain editors whilst admonishing me during the discussion. When I started the RfC/U on Lar I feel a lot of skeptic editors in the CC area took one look at my username and the fact that I am a glaciologist and decided I was some CC nutcase and treated me as such which has lead to many of the issues. I don't really want to face that sort of prejudice at arbcom. Polargeo (talk) 10:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

My concern was the unhealthy focus on other editors rather the discussing the proposed decision; some of your comments were straying into the territory of personal attacks. You were warned by more than one Arb over your unhelpful comments; your politics haven't a thing to do with why you were asked to tone things down. I'm not "chummy" with any editors in the case, that's my normal method of discussion - perhaps if you'd like to add constructive ideas for changing the PD or improving the topic area rather than tear down other editors, you would like the response you get much better. Shell 13:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I was not personally warned by more than one arb at all. It was only you who assumed that the collapse by another arb was due to my comments when in fact I did not start the collapsed thread at all and was simply defending my own actions. I fully agree with the other arb's collapsing of that thread. Carcharoth has been exemplary in the handling of this case. Polargeo (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Or perhaps, having spoken with my colleagues, I have a better idea about the concerns. So long as you steer clear of attacking other editors, we'd all be happy to hear any concerns you may have about the Proposed Decision. Shell 13:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I will try my best. Although I have said most of it already and it is so widely spread that I am getting tired of repetition. Polargeo (talk) 13:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're concerned something will get lost in the mix, you might want to add those points to the statement portion so that they don't accidentally get archived or overlooked. If there's anything in particular you feel needs looked at, feel free to put some diffs here to those particular points and I'll make sure I've seen them. Shell 14:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Unwanted editorialization

Sorry to bother you again, but this sort of editorializing is unwelcome. In the spirit of defusing, I'm not filling an enforcement request; however, I'd like a clear statement that crying EEML WITCH!, offering personal opinions re-litigating EEML, synthesis of personal victomology at the hands of EEML and all, are may be considered sanctionable WP:BATTLEGROUND offenses. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sanctionable, I don't know but unhelpful, certainly. There is certainly a serious problem here with a number of people being unable/unwilling to drop the stick. Unfortunately it looks like it's heading to site bans. Shell 13:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This is getting a bit too far indeed. I am not sure that I understand what he means, but it doesn't sound good. Colchicum (talk) 01:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Well if you look at the second link, it's a news article about intimidation, but that is a rather odd comment. If someone feels their participation at an article could be harmful, they should really consider working elsewhere. Shell 13:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The only limits being tested here are those of my patience. You well know if I respond to this sort of goading I'll be the one accused of "not disengaging." PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)