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	== POLITICAL CHANGES ==		== POLITICAL CHANGES ==
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	http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/88511/thumbs/s-SANFORD-large.jpg		http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/88511/thumbs/s-SANFORD-large.jpg
	http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/88512/thumbs/s-FOLEY-large.jpg		http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/88512/thumbs/s-FOLEY-large.jpg
			:Commenting so this is archived. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 07:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	== FAIR and MMfA ==		== Just wondering... ==
			Why one MMFA and HP suddenly qualify as big ticket news items? The different incidents could be explained as honest mistakes and really HP and MMFA aren't good indicators of notability. ] (]) 05:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
	FAIR and MMFA both describe themselves as Progressive (see liberal) groups. To say that FNC recieves criticism from interest groups without context of who they are is disengenious. Furthermore with the recent complaints by Democratic presidential contenders about FNC it is common knowledge that Democrats and liberals alike criticize FNC for what they claim is a conservative bias. Another alternative would be to label them by what they do, which is crititize those they feel are conservatively biased. Both groups state that they look only for what they feel is conservative bias. ] (]) 18:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
			:The "mistakes" seem to consistently favor Republicans. Mistakes would happen in equal frequency in both directions. Can you find any examples of a scandal prone Democrats being mislabeled as a Republican? The list included in the article is only a partial list. Here are some others - http://intershame.com/on/Fox_News/?d=123. In terms of notability, just because the source is MMFA or HP doesn't mean it isn't notable. If you Google each event, you'll find that there were many opinion pieces that referred to each one. ] (]) 12:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
	: I see a huge number of blanket statements in your comment that you need to document. To focus on the subject you need to find references that: One, that when they describe themselves as progressive that they by progressive means liberal (both of those terms are extremely vague, they can mean anything). Two, that they only look for conservative bias, only MMfA has stated anything like that. ] (]) 19:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
			::No, but coverage from other sources that aren't there just to criticize Fox News (like MMFA) or from a liberal blog (HP) would establish that these were genuine controversies. And your argument mistakes burden of evidence. Can you cite an example where this "controversy" made it into the mainstream media? Most of the places I noticed were simple blogs quoting intershame, hardly mainstream coverage. ] (]) 21:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
	::Exactly what do you mean? FAIR declares themselves as Progressive on their own website, as does MMfA. Progressive is used interchangably with Liberal under almost all circumstances as an anti-thesis to conservative. I challenge that they are extremely vague, especially under the context by which FNC is criticized as being conservatively biased. Lets look at it another way. To say that they are "interest groups" implies a political agenda. FAIR and MMfA accuse FNC of taking a viewpoint consistant with Conservatives (ie Republicans). FAIR and MMfA both claim to be Progressive (ie Democratic, Liberal). Perhaps I should ask why you feel the label is unwarrented when both groups are quite proud of it themselves. ] (]) 20:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
			:::You make a fair point about not finding it in the mainstream media. I'll concede on notability. ] (]) 22:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::Arzel, when does this ever end? You are not going to start labelling or characterizing the critics of FNC, not on the ] article, not here, not anywhere on Misplaced Pages. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
			:::::Fox News has an obvious ideological slant on stories they choose to cover, in some cases promote, the conservative "fact checkers" they use, and the slant within the stories. How is Fox News considered legitimate but Huffington Post accused of ideological slant? Just wondering... <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::::If it's sourced, he certainly can. ] (]) 21:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
			Please see related discussion at ]. '''~a''' (] • ] • ]) 18:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Not only can. Should. ] (]) 10:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
			:Regarding "not finding it in the mainstream media"... MSNBC, at the very least, has extensively covered the four video mistakes in the past few weeks. I am pretty sure the Daily Show has as well, and I doubt they're the ''only'' ones. But, either way, people seem to be under the mistaken impression that ] requires ''sources'' be without ideology, which is a complete misunderstanding of policy -- ] only requires that '''Misplaced Pages''' present issues neutrally (not that sources be neutral). See the detailed explanation . //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::OP I agree with you, why list idiots like freaken Media Matters, the most progressive loons on the planet as opposers to Fox. Also, they list freaking HOWARD DEAN?? The most liber politicion ever? Do they see their hypocrasy? They will chastise Fox all day becasue it actually shows some right wing ideas, but let MSNBC and their ridiculous left wing support pass on buy. Freaking hypocrite politicians.
			::I didn't say that sources had to be w/o an ideology, but if they tend to blow minor incidents out of proportion (even if done in a factually accurate manner) then the ] of their content that is being added comes into question. ] (]) 20:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::With no disrespect intended, your categorization of incidents as "minor" or not is not really relevant -- that the criticism has been picked up (or acknowledged separately) in mainstream media is plenty sufficient indication that the incident has weight. Honestly, Soxwon, I don't think you're going to be able to sell this as some sort of insignificant criticism by ] groups carrying no ] -- MMFA/FAIR/etc. are already considered reliable sources with regards to media issues (as noted at the RSN noticeboard request you made); broadcast sourcing on MSNBC (and likely elsewhere, if we bother to hunt it down) is just the final nail in that coffin. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::This discussion was specifically focused on the mislabeling of scandal prone Democrats as Republicans. SoxWon started the discussion when I restored the edit he removed. The video incidents are still in the article and were widely reported in the mainstream media. I cannot find any examples, though, of the mainstream media covering the incorrect party attribution. If anyone else can, please include the reference. ] (]) 03:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
			Ucanlookitup, you just opened a can of worms. A minor mislabel is nothing compared to the rest of the media's blatant lack of labels whenever a Democrat has a scandal. ] (]) 08:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
	I am still to see MSNBC manipulate photos, have previous employees talk about the executives manipulating the journalism and so forth. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== Slogan controversy and "''Outfoxed''" ==
	Why is your focus on MMfA and FAIR being added to articles and not ], the conservative equivalent? And other than that, MRC, MMfA, and FAIR are fine sources and there are nothing wrong with them.
			There appears to be very little or no mention of Fox's "Fair and Balanced" slogan controversy, although this slogan has been widely criticized. Doesn't this issue merit more discussion in the article?
	-- ] <small>(])</small> 03:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
			Also, Robert Greenwald's 2004 documentary '']'' is hardly mentioned or referenced in the article, despite being a key player in the Fox News coverage balance and bias debate. Perhaps it and its assertions should be further explored in this article, particularly in concert with the slogan controversy.
	== Mass Effect ==
	Apparently Fox news made some hiddeously untrue statements about Mass Effect and very biased statements about games in general. I wonder where we should put this into the article.
			] (]) 19:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
	http://gamepolitics.com/2008/01/22/1993/
			:No. --] ] 20:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzF173GqTU
			::Actually, yes, this topic does merit more discussion, and this topic has been discussed in reliable, scholarly sources. ] (]) 07:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
			Personally, a documentary by Media Matter for America, a company much more liberally biased than FNC is conservatively biased, is not worth more discussion. Outside of Beck, O'Reilly (sometimes,) and Hannity, FNC is mostly fair and balanced. ] (]) 08:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
	] (]) 20:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
			No. It isn't, and after their most recent $1 million donation, it is perfectly reasonable to include partisan criticism of another partisan organization. Fox has argued before the Supreme Court it is an entertainment organization, not a news organization, yet it pretends and acts as if it were one. Comparisons with MSNBC are false, because only 15 hours of MSNBC are liberal, whilst the rest is centrist or conservative. FOX News is unique in American Media and thus deserves special consideration as being pointed out as being the partisan arm of the Right that they really are. The one million dollar donation removes all doubt to the contrary about that to any honest observer. ] (]) 06:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:FNC is known for presenting issues in a decidedly biased way. That being said, of course they seemed to misrepresent the issue and make some false claims. However, in the large scheme of things this is just another minute example of a very vast problem and probably does not rise to the level necessary for inclusion. Should you find a ] that is critical of this exchange further discussion might be warranted, but for now it's probably a violation of ] in general, and ] specfically. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
	::This is exactly why you can't provide a NPOV for this article. You literally just gave away your bias.] (]) 07:03, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
	I'd say this is a very good example of falsities made by Fox News. We can use Jeff Brown's letter of view the game itself as a source.
			:PokeHomsar, so what you are saying is that other than the "journalists" who account for creating and maintaining the vast majority of Fox's viewership, as well as being the most widely watched segments on FNC, the rest is pretty fair and balanced? That being the case, then I think this is very relevant to the topic at hand. ] | ] 21:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
	link: http://kotaku.com/348187/ea-calls-fox-out-on-insulting-mass-effect-inaccuracies (letter from Vice President of Communication at EA that is critical of this exchange) ] (]) 06:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
			::Ropbert, Beck, O'reilly, and Hannity are not journalists. They're pundits. Asking for them to be neutral would be like asking for Keith Olbermann to be neutral.] (]) 21:39, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			As for Manticore's rant... do expect to be taken seriously?] (]) 21:39, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
	:: Well let's see so far we have EA (the publisher) and the ECA (a consumer group).
			Wikiposter0123: I agree, but that is why I think this is an important topic for inclusion. O'Reilly is one of the biggest who keeps mentioning how they are "Fair and Balanced" - and all three pretend they're news casters as opposed to pundits. ] | ] 21:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
	http://gamepolitics.com/2008/01/24/ea-calls-out-fox-news-over-mass-effect-smear/
			== Title ==
	http://gamepolitics.com/2008/01/28/ecas-hal-halpin-calls-on-fox-news-to-retract-mass-effect-story/
			The current title is not appropriate for this article. This is not an article about the journalist standards or ethics regarding FNC. It is an article largely of the complaints by others about FNC. Controversies may not be a good name, but this is clearly misleading. ] (]) 02:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	And one of the speakers in the segment has since retracted her statements whilst Fox News has said nothing.
			:There also doesn't appear to be any recent discussion or concensus for this change. I am changing back and suggest we discuss a proper title. ] (]) 02:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
			::Not sure how to return name. Anyone else know? ] (]) 02:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
			:::Frankly it appears to be an attack article and I'm not sure it would (or should) survive an AfD. ] (]) 03:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
			::::Um, it already '''has''' survived an AFD, Jake. As far as title goes, how about '''Criticism of Fox News'''? ] (]) 21:35, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
			:::::There was absolutely no discussion of this move and I am going to revert. ] (]) 03:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
			== News Corp Co-Owner Donates $300,000 to NY Mosque effort ==
	http://gamepolitics.com/2008/01/26/cooper-lawrence-i-misspoke-about-mass-effect/
			Since the News Corp GOP donation is being debated, I figured this would be debated as well. "The second largest shareholder in News Corp. -- the parent company of Fox News -- has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes linked to the Imam planning to build a Muslim community center and mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, says a report from Yahoo!News." Highly relevant -- Fox News has campaigned against the mosque for weeks now, without revealing that their parent company had involvements in the mosque funding. This just broke today (Sunday, August 22, 2010). Please include after appropriate head-scratching and debate. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Do you think this makes it good enough for inclusion, (and to be fair the issue is still ongoing so it is not too late for Fox News to say something in the matter)? ] (]) 05:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
			:Well he is a muslim, so its not that surprising. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 21:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			I don't see that News Corp had any involvement in the mosque funding. This donation of $305K was from ], of Saudi Arabia, and it was from his charity, not News Corp. This item just isn't relevant in this article, although it might be in his. — ] (]) 23:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::Falsities? Why the hell are you quibbling about this when many people like the ACLU idiots and media matters drones are trying to turn us into france. Sure, Fox got mass effect wrong (I like that game quite a bit actually} but its not enough to say "I'd say this is a very good example of falsities made by Fox News. We can use Jeff Brown's letter of view the game itself as a source." I mean, what the heck is that? You are basically saying "HAW since fox got something on a game slightly right it suddenly verifies all those things my friends at the ACLU and Nambla said!! YAY lets go smear Fox on wikipedia!." Well maybe next time you should think and look at all the CRAP "FALSITIES" MSNBC puts out everyday such as using false polls to show Obama in the lead, and their huge SUPPORT of the left wing. So before you go out on a left leg and smear Fox, get your facts straight so that you dont look like a hypcritical moron.
			:The connection though was made due to Al-Waleen owning seven percent of News Corp, being a significant co-owner of Fox News. It should also be noted that as of 2010 News Corp. has a $70 (9%) investment in Al-Waleed's ] Group, the Arab World's largest entertainment company.] (]) 23:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Maybe its just me, but I thought I saw User:76.123.142.53's tongue rather firmly implanted in his cheek. ] (]) 23:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Turn us into France? STFU you hypocritical moron unlike your dumbass they have presented evidence for their arguement. You must come from one of Glen Beck's republican zombie hordes. Why you don't you stfu and go eat up everything Fox feeds you, hurry up go back to your tv you uneducated moron.] (]) 09:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
			::Maybe he's just trying to note the irony of using a businesses' lack of support for Obama's business-killing economic plan to show conservative bias in a daughter company by comparing it to that same businesses' apparent interest in things that contradict that very same daughter companies perceived position.] (]) 23:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			Sometimes it's hard to tell... Remember the funny one in the RfC on Fox as a RS in which someone claimed that CBS created a fake news story in 1938 as evidence of deception? It was, of course, ]. That one I enjoyed. — ] (]) 23:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Ron Paul reporting ==
			:LOL. :)
			:While we're at it have you heard of the "]"? Epic hoax by the BBC. Maybe I'll start an RfC on their credibility. :P] (]) 00:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			== Auto archiving ==
	I believe that the plentiful criticism of Fox News' coverage of Republican candidate Ron Paul is notable of an edit. Please tell me your thoughts and I would be happy to include it.
	--] ] 01:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
	: Who are the critics? are there any reputable critics? Paul has 2% in the Florida polls. Any comments that he is not a real contender are valid. ] (]) 01:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
	He came in second in either Nevada of South Carolina. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			I've added 45 day/10 thread auto archiving to this page as its getting really long. I hope that's OK. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 21:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::'''"Any comments that he is not a real contender are valid"'''' This is not the place to float your political opinions, bytebear, and your POV is (again) noted. Regarding the ''actual'' issue at hand, I'm sure that any dedicated editor could find more than a few articles regarding this (at which point it will be included). /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 07:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
			== $1 Million GOP Donation ==
	::: Actually, its not a place to float YOUR political opinons, Blaxthos, as anyone willing to write about a controversy with Ron Paul is wasting time. He was a Socialist masquerading as a republican, and Paul was not strong enough have a good talk on Fox as his real ideals would be revealed through the interviewing of O'reilly, hannity, and others. Is it not right for a news station to show how a candidate is not what he seems? Atleast they let the public know about him while other stations just sat by. Besides, Paul was one of the least voted for candidates, and its not surprising to see why. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			Fox parent News Corps donated $1 Million dollars to the Republican Governor's Association. Many news outlets have covered this controversy, but Fox News hasn't mentioned it once. This has gotten a lot of press lately...any reason its not on this section?] (]) 01:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::The media in general, not just Fox, marginalized reporting on Ron Paul not due to any political bias, but because he was seen as a very minor candidate that would never attract enough of a following to be a viable candidate (ie., a candidate with a realistic chance of winning the presidency, or even the candidacy of a major party) and thus wasn't worthy of major coverage. History has proven this to be a correct assessment. Ron Paul not only failed to win the presidency but did not even win the Republican nomination; nor did he even come close to doing so. It's fact now, not opinion. ] (]) 06:55, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
			:For one thing this article is about Fox News Channel, not about News Corps. ] (]) 19:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
			::It's not like FNC/NC has been accused of republican bias, so it's totally irrelevant to this article. Oh wait... //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 23:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
			FNC mentioned on Special Report, the day the story broke. Good researching there, plant. ] (]) 02:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Mort Kondracke ==
			:No, they did not. The story broke on August 16th, and FoxNews Special report had a 39 second blurb about it on August 18th. They waited 2 days after the story broke before they mentioned it at all!] (]) 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Under the Criticisms of Individuals section, Mort Kondracke is identified as a moderate. According to who? That's pure opinion and not backed up. What I don't understand here is why it's necessary that somebody should have to be a "far left" liberal to be a liberal. I mean Hillary Clinton can be considered a Centrist/Moderate, but you wouldn't hear any complaining if she filled Kondracke's seat. The whole section should be edited.] (]) 01:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
			Please show the footage--no mention has ever been made on FNC.] (]) 18:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Not sure about his political leanings, but the section was linked to a topic that had nothing to do with the section (MM link was not relevant to the criticism). Second link was to Think Progress, which is a Blog site. So I removed the section all together. ] (]) 07:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
			:Here's a link to the 39 second video of the mention on FoxNews Special Report. ] (]) 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC) :http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008180065 ] (]) 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Richard Dawkins ==
			And it is not relevant to the article. Add it to New Corp. article. Or, you're asking us to add to every publication and news service they own. Blaxthos, your input as a terribly biased individual to the other side, is not needed here. ] (]) 02:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	The section on Richard Dawkins also says quote "When Oxford biologist Richard Dawkins, who is an outspoken atheist, appeared on The O'Reilly Factor, he was simply labeled: "Atheist"." I don't see how that is a conservative controversy. The man is an atheist, it's not a crime to label him as such on the television screen. This could possibly be reworded in a better way or removed all together. ] (]) 05:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
			Utterly preposterous...it is part of the main Fox News article; and the criticism of the donation is directly relevant to Fox News because the News Channel is the one being accused of showing a bias to the GOP, in fact, the letter from the DGA was addressed to Roger Ailes of FOX NEWS, not to Rupert Murdoch. Fox News' coverage of the issue and Mr. Daschle's response is also part of the controversy, which is the title of the article. To say that NewsCorps donation has nothing to do with Fox News is disingenous at best and blatantly partisan at worst. I have no trouble including a spirited defense of the donation in the article, but to ignore it is just ridiculous.] (]) 18:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	:I agree and it has been removed. For one, it was simply a link to YouTube without any actual criticism. Additionally, the actual video didn't just label him as an Atheist, it switched back and forth between Atheist and Author. He was on the program specifically discussing views relating to his atheism, and his book which are both relevant to the labels he was given. Ultimately this appears to be OR. ] (]) 05:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
			Are you kidding me? News Corp. owns the New York Post, the FOX network, Fox Business Network, the Wall Street Journal, and several other things. FNC isn't the only thing Murdoch owns in the media industry. He even owns a chunk of Hulu. Also, not only was this kind of thing legal before the Citizens United case (it was,) but before the $1 million donation, News Corp. had mostly given about equal to both parties. ] (]) 19:15, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	::I disagree; there has been criticism on this point and will be re-inserted with appropriate citations in the near future. Also, please refrain from simply removing with the summary "removing youtube", as youtube is a delivery vehicle (not the actual source); cite the specific issue instead of blanket removal of sources that are delivered via youtube. In this particular instance the statement you removed violated ], not because the segment carried was via youtube. If the youtube video was of a reliable source/critic uttering criticism of the athiest(/author) issue then it would have been proper. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
			There is no question the donation is legal. The donation is also a matter of fact and it's on the record. The donation of $1,000,000 to a congressional committee at the national level would be noteworthy enough, but this was to the Republican Governor's Association. It is understood that Fox News Channel will be actively promoting Republican candidates for governor and incumbent Republican governors and not giving equal treatment to Democrats. This donation is evidence of that and thus stands as a controversial act. Also, the relationship between News Corp and Fox News is exceptionally close and not at all like that of other parent companies of media outlets. See Robert Greenwald's "Outfoxed" ] for actual memos from corporate to Fox News personalities directing them how to craft political perceptions (in favor of Republicans).] (]) 10:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Regardless, I still don't see what the problem (nor has it really been addressed) of why it is inappropriate to label somebody as an Atheist on TV when they are exactly that. It's hardly a controversy. It's just nitpicking at Fox. Dawkins is an outspoken atheist and its not inappropriate for Fox to label him as such. However, it may have been '''MORE''' appropriate to label him an author and atheist, but that doesn't make it inappropriate to label him an atheist. Anybody who really thinks this is a controversy has to have an anti-Fox agenda here.] (]) 07:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
	:They actually did label him both an Author and an Atheist for what appeared to be about equal time. It is nit-picking by FNC haters. ] (]) 14:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
			:Saying that before this donation, News Corp had given to both sides equally is incredibly disingenuous. Previous donations were in the range of tens of thousands of dollars. Any comment denying that a million dollars is a lot more than donations that might add up to $100,000 in any given election year is a dishonest one! $100,000 is only 10% of $1 million. And, to top that off, previous donations were from employees and PAC's. This donation was directly from corporate, not from employees. That makes it different too. ] (]) 06:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Your opinion of the criticism is irrelevant. The fact that it ''is'' criticism (or will be, once it's reliably sourced) is the crux of the issue. Again, your ''ad hominem'' characterization of those who support said criticism as "''nit-picking by FNC haters''" is yet '''another''' example of inappropriate behavior. When will it end, Arzel? /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 17:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
	:::My opinion is no more irrelevant than yours. Why not get off your high horse. ] (]) 19:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)		Murdoch also owns the Weekly Standard. ] (]) 19:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			In terms of viewer ship, income and size, Fox News dwarfs all of those other areas. Furthermore, Fox News is far more blatantly partisan than any of the other outfits owned by News Corp, AND have not so blatantly championed the Citizens United Decision of the Roberts Court which made this possible. And calling someone a "Plant" is a violation of Misplaced Pages Policy. ]. ] (]) 06:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::I don't try to use my opinion of criticism to remove it from articles; you do. I try to remember that it's not my opinion (or yours) that means anything. The criticism exists, is germane, neutrally presented, and reliably sourced. Just because you think "''It is nit-picking by FNC haters''" does not give you any justification to remove it. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've explained this to you. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 08:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
			== RFC: $1 Million GOP Donation ==
	It's controversial for this reason: I'm from Tennessee where, as in many places, the word "Atheist" provokes a knee-jerk negative reaction, especially among the religious conservatives who dominate the state. Atheists go to hell, along with anyone foolish enough to listen to their blasphemy. Dawkins could have been more accurately labeled "Doctor of Science" or "Evolutionary Biologist." But then, religious conservatives might have been fooled into listening to him, instead of dismissing everything he had to say out of hand. An analogy would be having President Obama on Fox News to talk about African American issues and labeling him, "Liberal Black Activist". What's wrong with that? I mean, that's what he is, right?] (]) 08:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
			{{rfctag|media}}
	Until Fox identifies everyone in their intros by their religious affiliation (ie: Donald Rumsfeld, Lutheran or Ann Coulter, Scientologist ::both just random examples!::) it is disingenuous to list perceived religious affiliations for certain guests and to ignore same with other guests. It is part of a "priming" or "shaping" strategy where people who are "identified" are separated from the average person by these labels and the lack of those labels on other guest presuppose that no label is required because they are "like you." In actuality, using labels specific to a person's religious affiliation would create some bias, even if the identified person was a member of a typical denomination of a common religious order.
			{{Not a ballot|1=of }}
			], the parent of ], has a to a GOP organization. Should this incident and the controversy surrounding it be included in the ] article? Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant; opponents contend the information is only relevant to the ] article. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Support inclusion''' as RFC nominator. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	:: If, for example, someone is Lutheran or Methodist, identifying a guest in their intro as "Southern Baptist" might influence the watcher and their perception of the accuracy, validity or context of statements even if they are not specifically addressing topics of religion. If one, for a theoretical example, a news network, were to identify *only* atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Jain (yes, it is a religion, look it up!) then it works as a blunt instrument to divide "us" , the unlabeled, from "them" the labeled.
			* '''NO''' Since it was not an action taken by FNC, I cannot see how this would be a controversy of FNC's making. It is entirely a manufactured controversy from the left. NewsCorp has donated money to both parties for years, historically the majority has gone to Democrats, now that they have donated to the Republicans the left wants to attack FNC. GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to both parties as well with the majority going to Democrats, yet none of the GE related news companies (NBC, MSNBC, NBC News) mention it, neither does GE for that matter. It is already mentioned on the NewsCorp article; where it belongs. ] (]) 19:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	::If the news piece is centered around a topic in which religion is a major piece (say the Ryan Report of abuse in Catholic reform schools in Ireland), identification of one speaker as "Catholic" would be appropriate. However it would be JUST AS NECESSARY to identify a strong critic of the speaker (the counterpoint) as to their religious affiliation. The presumption that the Catholic speaker is influence by bias, but the other speaker who is unlabeled is not would be an incorrect perception. For example, if the critic were an Irish Protestant, one could assume some animosity to the Catholic speaker, if the critic shows that tendency in what they say. Divorced from the "Protestant" label, the critic carries a presumption of neutrality where one may not exist. It allows the viewer to ignore the "differences" between critic and viewer and presume that there is a general agreement between the critic and viewer on their respective viewpoints. This is "shaping" behavior and is subtle. It allows the "theoretical" news network to claim balance while actually influencing perceptions within a story labeled as "news." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::If the left has linked this to Foc News then it is a Fox News controversy and should be included here.] (]) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::I don't think I understand that logic. This has nothing to do with FNC ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::On your first point, Arzel: It is disingenuous to point out previous NC political contributions because the $1 million recently donated is more than the combined donations to both parties in the last 4 years. The political timing of the donation is also very convenient, making it hard to believe that it was a short-term whim to donate to republicans and not an opportunistic play on a long-term agenda. On your second point: While it would normally be unfair to judge a subsidiary corporation based on the actions of its parent corporation, context is everything. Fox News isn't some distinct corporate entity that acts independently of its parents corporation, and News Corp isn't the type of parent company which does nothing but act as a holdings company. Fox News is known to cater to, if not manufacture altogether, conservative sentiment. While Fox News themselves may not have produced the event, it is somewhat clear that the 1$ million donation from NC is rooted in the same poisonous tree that other Fox News controversies are rooted in, so I think its somewhat relevant to put here. This is especially true since the "Criticism/Controversies" section of the NewsCorp article has been eliminated anyway. I wouldn't mind omitting the action on the Fox News controversies page if there was another page or section dedicated to tracking criticisms/controversies of NewsCorp as a whole (particularly when one criticism (partisan bias) spans so many subsidiaries). ] (]) 00:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			* Possibly include as part of a neutral summary of NewsCorp donation history during Fox News existence. It's attracted enough attention to merit mentioning, but it needs context then. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	I had to watch the video of this interview to be sure I knew exactly what the controversy was. As far as I can tell Richard Dawkins' label of atheist related to the topic of the interview in a very direct way. Bill O'Reilly, acting as the counterpoint to Richard Dawkins, clearly states his religious affiliation. Whether or not either speaker is labeled or not, their religious affiliations are made apparent by the subject matter alone. The fact is that neutrality does not exist under any circumstance and I agree that this should be re-instated with proper citations (if such citations exist.) ] (]) 20:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Is it really debatable to include an empirical fact? Surprised that someone had the gaul to call it manufactured. And how is it not notable? It got a lot of coverage. This should be a '''given''' to be included. ] (]) 10:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC) (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== Brit Hume ==
			:I offered a submission that I researched and made sure to include Fox News and News Corps responses to be fair and balanced. First I was told it was a minor controversy, then I was told no one really was covering it (false), then I was told that I had to get "consensus" from everybody on this highly partisan issue (even though some here clearly have an agenda), then I was told that News Corps has nothing to do with Fox News. Enough! This is the largest donation made by a private company to the RGA AND one of the largest in history by a media organization! This issue is already on the main article on Fox News, and it has been thoroughly covered by the main stream media. The criticism has been directed towards Roger Ailes and Fox News in terms of how they can claim to be "fair and balanced" in the coverage of upcoming races as well as Fox News' reluctance to cover the controversy! As I said before, I have no trouble with a blurb that gives a strong defense of the donation...but it is disingenuous at best and partisan at worst to say that this does not deserve to be in this article.] (]) 02:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	"Brit Hume created controversy when he made the misleading claim that "U.S. soldiers have less of a chance of dying from all causes in Iraq than citizens have of being murdered in California". Based on population, rather than unit area, a United States soldier in Iraq is actually 60 times more likely to be killed than an individual in California."
			:*'''Cross Posting''' your efforts at the Daily Kos really don't help your situation. This RFC is now completely worthless as you have inundated it with your fellow biased crew. This comment gives you away.<blockquote>We gave up on the Fox News main page, and simply added a balanced blurb on the "Fox News Controversies" page, which even INCLUDED the official Fox News and News Corps defense of the donation. It was removed. </blockquote> ] (]) 15:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::Arzel, for all we know you could have made the "cross posting" at that website when you realized that community consensus was against you anyway, thereby giving yourself an excuse to claim the whole RFC is "worthless"... I'm just saying, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is no policy that says an RFC becomes "worthless" if it gets attention off-wiki; we simply '''consider the content of the arguments instead of the quantity of participants''' -- if we now have a million editors who all give reasoned arguments, then their argument still are valid. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 15:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Both sources lead back to the original column by Brit Hume, and a criticism by '''Al Franken'''. You can't get any more biased than that. This is another section that needs to be edited or deleted entirely. ] (]) 16:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
			::::::''I'm just saying, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.''
			::::::I concur with Blaxthos' position. Off-wiki canvassing is neither new nor can even be unexpected (although experienced editors will realize that it may actually do a dis-service to the credibility of the favored position) and the tag applied was designed to address that eventuality. As to...
			::::::''...for all we know you could have made the "cross posting" at that website when you realized that community consensus was against you anyway...''
			::::::Good Lord Blaxthos. Provocative, incendiary and unnecessary come to mind immediately. May I suggest that this discussion of the event be re-factored out of this section to its own section if you are both committed to continuing this discussion? ] (]) 15:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Can you show the policy that suggests criticism by Al Franken is to be removed? /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 17:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
			* Certainly '''Include'''. Opponents state but offer no source to support contention that "NewsCorp has donated money to both parties for years, historically the majority has gone to Democrats, now that they have donated to the Republicans the left wants to attack FNC." If NewsCorp has given money to any political party, it belongs in this article. Similarly when GE and other corporations make significant gifts to either party, it should be sourced and accurately represented. Misplaced Pages is not in the business of First Amendment censorship. by Jonathan Salant of Bloomberg responsibly reports that "News Corp., the media company controlled by Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rupert Murdoch, gave the RGA ] $1 million in June" and that "The Republicans' biggest corporate donor was New York-based News Corp" and that "News Corp. opposes proposed federal rule changes that would weaken the position of its Fox network in negotiations with cable companies. Governors may have a stake in the issue." In recent decision, the US Supreme Court allows unlimited corporate gifts to political parties. This gift is the largest yet by any corporation, according to the Bloomberg article. Deliberately deleting relevant facts such as these undermines Misplaced Pages credibility. ] (]) 13:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::There isn't a policy, but if your trying to make a fair criticism Al Franken is hardly the person to use. The man is a self professed liberal. There isn't one person in the middle that would agree that a criticism by Al Franken serves a neutral purpose. Controversies occur when there is some kind of consensus amongst everybody from all sides of the political spectrum about the issue (like the discredited military contributor). There is no controversy when Al Franken says I don't like Fox News. Thats merely his opinion. And any numbers that come from Iraq that he disagrees with also fall within his opinion. ] (]) 06:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
			**The million dollar Fox gift to the ] is one direct effect of the Supreme Court's Citizens United opinion. Story, July 6, 2010, in ''Los Angeles Times'' underscores the importance of "The 5-4 ruling in the Citizens United case (which) struck down all limits on direct election spending — for giant, profit-making corporations as well as small nonprofit groups. For more than 60 years, Congress and many states had barred corporate and union spending to sway elections. The court's opinion dismissed all such laws as unconstitutional censorship." For the first time in history, it is likely we will be seeing many more corporate gifts of significant size to each of the political parties. To set Misplaced Pages policy now, at the beginning of what is likely to be a sea change in the funding of US politics, is short-sighted and it is a disservice to the public that has a right to know who funds what campaigns. Citizens United is the fourth-largest political-advocacy organization in America, according to a . The Citizens United decision paved the way for the Fox gift to the ]. It is a mistake to either ignore corporate gifts to politicians or to shove 'em behind closed doors in the darkness of closets.] (]) 14:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Reject''', seems largely manufactured. Nobody has complained before for parent companies of news organizations making political donations, and this hasn't really received that much attention.] (]) 20:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::The first four words of your reply are sufficient. The rest is completely irrelevant -- please see our core policies and guidelines for additional explaination why. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 08:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
			** "Nobody has complained before for parent companies of news organizations making political donations" is entirely implausible hyperbole, and "this hasn't really received that much attention" is simply wrong. Google News gives at least 338 articles, including UK coverage. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			**Did you really just say "entirely implausible hyperbole"? That doesn't mean what you think it means. I suppose you could be right about the second part, Media Matters and various other blogs have harped about this quite a bit, and appear to be leading the controversy. That isn't ] and ] at all.] (]) 21:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
			**Entirely Implausible....as in, it is entirely implausible that a logical or reasonable person would believe that this is 'manufactured' or what was really going on when News Corp made the donation to the Republican Party, and the fact that we are even having this conversation implies a titanic disconnect between what you're arguing and what everyone else (everyone else being 300+ articles) sees. Hyperbole, as in 'making stuff up out of thing in air' as in 'blowing stuff ridiculously out of proportion.' Yeah, saying Fox News did not make this donation smacks of Hyperbole. This "Entirely Implausible Hyperbole" seems a pretty accurate description to me. ] (]) 06:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::"''Yeah, saying Fox News did not make this donation smacks of Hyperbole.''" Re-read what "entirely implausible hyperbole" was in reference to(about parent companies making donations without being scrutinized), then re-write your response which is pretending that it was in reference to claims that Fox did not make the donation(which it didn't). Also hyperbole doesn't mean 'making stuff up out of thing in air'.] (]) 22:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Fine, if you want to argue policy it violates ]. You know it and I'm going to continue to fight for this to be a neutral article. The entire article should be renamed to Media Matters Criticisms of Fox News, because thats where about half the sources are coming from. To quote, "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not."] (]) 18:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
			* '''<s>Wait and See''' For the most part the only real thing that has attached to FNC and received mainstream media coverage is the letter demanding full financial disclosure. After that, it's mainly incidental mentions in MSM with lots of chatter from the left. I would say wait for the mainstream media (NYT, LA Times, Globe) to pick it up or else leave it in Newscorp article where it belongs. '''Include''' per LA Times. Voices from WP and mediacoder from NYT are blogs.</s> Don't give a fuck anymore, not really worth the time and trouble. ] (]) 21:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::::I thought you were talking about Al Franken; now it's morphed into "''the entire article should be renamed to Media Matters Criticism of Fox News''". I'm sorry if you disagree with the criticism, but that's not justification to excise criticism. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 18:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
			:*'''Comment''': Are you guys just intentionally ignoring the references from mainstream sources? I'm quite shocked you have the balls to even attempt to shade this as some insignificant controversy only being perpetuated by fringe elements, given references as diverse and respected as:
	== Pre-emptive warning ==
			::* ''(News Corp.'s $1M Contribution to GOP Governors Group Under Fire)''
			::* ''(Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. Gives Big To GOP)''
			::* ''(Fox News takes heat for News Corporation's GOP donation)''
			::* ''(Fox News Parent News Corp. Gives $1 Million to GOP)''
			::* ''(Republicans See Gains in Governors’ Races as Funding Hits Peak)''
			::* ''(Murdoch donates $1m to the Republicans)''
			::* ''(Fox parent's donation causes stir)''
			::* ''(This Governor Brought to You By …)'' (as requested!)
			::* ''(Fox News parent firm donates $1 million to Republican Governors Association)'' (as requested!)
			::* ''(Fox parent News Corp. donates $1 million to Republican Governors' Association)''
			::* ''(Rupert Murdoch's Republicanism)''
			::* ''(Democrats cry foul: Fox News’ parent gives $1M for GOP victories)''
			::* ''(Fox News Channel: Does News Corp. donation to Republican Governors Association show Fox News isn’t fair and balanced? )''
			::* ''(Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp. Further Aligns Itself With the GOP)''
			:The assertions (from the usual right-wing crowd) are demonstrably false. Keep in mind, this is an article about FNC controversies -- I submit that the titles of most of the references above '''directly''' reference Fox News Channel, and that the existence of a controversy is clear given the number of, and diversity amongst the sources presented. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Comment''': it seems to me by reading the NY TImes that the "controversy" is over Nathan Daschle requesting Fox put a disclaimer on their news programs, not that News corp made the contribution. I don't really feel like going through all these but if you could just remove the rest of the articles that deal primarily with Daschle's publicity stunt and not with New Corps donation then that would help.] (]) 00:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::If Nathan Daschle has linked this donation to Fox News and this link has had publicity then it is a Fox News controversy and should go on this page.
			::So, just to be clear, you're not willing to actually read the source material, but you want the community to consider your opinion to be honest, informed, and in good faith? Furthermore, you want us to exclude sources based upon your own interpretations? Can you please point me towards a policy that supports this highly irregular circumstance? I'm having trouble believing you're here in ], and not making some ] objection based on what you already have decided must be true... //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::I only want to read through articles that deal primarily with this "controversy". not the articles that happen to mention it or explain it as a backdrop to Nathan Daschle's comments which are the focus. Trying to wear down editors by mentioning so many articles which may or may not be relevant is a bad tactic to use. It is up to the one supplying the sources to make sure they are relevant, your NYT source wasn't and I just stopped reading after that. I suppose I'll read a few more, but I don't like wasting my time.] (]) 00:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Sum up''':"''The Democratic National Committee called into question Fox News' objectivity Tuesday after it was reported that the cable network's parent company – News Corporation – recently donated $1 million to the Republican Governors Association.''"(CNN)
	Notice to Arzel and Flproject131: Please don't start agreeing with each other, calling it a consensus, and begin removing proper & compliant information. Thanks. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 17:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
			That is basically what these sources are saying. That the DNC is criticizing Fox for being biased because it's parent company made a donation to the GOP. I haven't yet read any articles(although I havn't read them all) that featured criticism from anybody else. How this could be subsequently drummed up as a "controversy" thus is beyond me.] (]) 00:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::The DNC is the largest political party in the USA. If they have linked this donation to Fox News then it is a Fox news controversy] (]) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I have now put in all the titles of each reference given above. Most of them don't mention the DNC until several paragraphs in, and only one couches the subject in the tone of "DNC raises concern." Let's stop burning that strawman. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Blaxthos. Please don't start with your assumption of Non-Good-Faith. ] (]) 19:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
	: I haven't made any changes to this page at all, I've merely brought up important discussion points to make this a much more neutral and fair criticism of Fox News.] (]) 07:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)		:::Then respond to my question as to why criticism from seemingly solely the DNC warrants a "controversy".] (]) 01:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Because the DNC are a major political party. ] (]) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::Good faith is assumed until there is reason to doubt such. That being said, I'm simply suggesting that you attempt to be more inclusive of established editors' opinions before falling into the pattern described above. It certainly would help assauge any worries of bad faith. ;-) /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 08:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)		::::My analysis (and yours) as to the "why" is irrelevant. We base inclusion on ] evidenced by ]. Given the copious sourcing in this case, I think that requirement has been satisfied. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::When you and your "friends" push to have the same information put into articles for MSNBC (parent company GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars more for Democrats) then it will be a little easier to see past the politicing of WP. This is only a controversy because the DNC seems to be crying about it. Since they have nothing else to talk about they seem to want to make this a "FNC is biased" issue, when it has nothing to do with FNC. Election season has fully arived. ] (]) 02:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Layout - why not use sub-headings instead of bullet lists? ==
			::::::If one of the 2 major parties in the USA claims that "FNC is biased" then there is a controversy and it deserves to be added here. Your claim that Fox News is not biased is Original Research and has no place here.] (]) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Surely we should use sub-headings instead of bullet lists? It is impossible to create a new paragraph within lists - and sometimes, for the sake of readability alone, that is required. Subheadings can be as small as you want - you can even use can use up to 5 of these '=====' - giving the same effect as bold: '''Smallest heading'''.
			::::::You are being dishonest once again. First off, GE is a conglomerate, but their main business is not the news business. News Corp's main focus and largest companies under their umbrella are news organizations. MSNBC is a small part of GE. Secondly, when you say that GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars, those are contributions from employees and PAC's, not direct contributions from GE itself. This contribution from News Corp was from corporate, reportedly at the direction and insistence of Roger Ailes. Third, even if GE did give a $100,000 to the Democrats, they also gave close to that amount to Republicans. I checked the numbers for Disney, which owns ABC, and therefore ABC News, and their donations over the past few election cycles were about 60-40 Dems over Reps. But News Corp gave $1 million to the Republican Governors Association and nothing to the Democratic Governors Association! That amount of money is 10 times as much as the amount you're complaining that News Corp gave to Republicans. Comparing the two is simply unfair and a distraction from the controversy raised by this donation by News Corp.
	You don't have to use the sizes in sequence - ie. sub headings under a section heading can be any size you choose.
			And one of the main companies in the USA is FoxNews. To suggest that this isn't a FoxNews controversy is denying the undeniable. Saying that it has "nothing to do with FNC" is disingenuous.] (]) 06:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	We are given these headings for this purpose, why not use them? Bullet lists are designed for a point or list system, where the elements are related in some way - not to separate different topics, like how we're using them now.
			Neither the parent company of MSNBC, GE nor the parent company of ABC News, Disney, has done a thing similar to what News Corp did. GE and Disney have both donated to both parties. In the past 4-5 years, based upon election contribution documentation sites, about 55-60% has gone to Dems and 40-45% has gone to Republicans. That's to candidates, and not to a partisan political group. That's one significant difference. Second, News Corp is largely a news media company. Neither GE nor Disney are largely involved in news media - those are tiny portions of the vast GE and Disney conglomerates, especially compared to the rightwing media presence of FoxNews, the Wall Street Journal, and many other media companies! Third, News Corp donated 100% to the Republican Governors Assoc, and 0% to the Democratic Governors Assoc. There is no precedence for that behavior in any arena. Fourth, the contributions from News Corp come from corporate - 100%. A large percentage of the contributions from "GE" actually come from the employees of GE, and are not corporate donations.
	Sometimes heading can be hard to get right, granted - but we should stick to the style guidelines here, IMO.--] (]) 14:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
			There is no fair comparison that can be made between the parent company of MSNBC and the parent company of FoxNews. Any attempt to do so is an illegitimate one, apparently intended to distract from the actual problematic behavior by News Corp. ] (]) 04:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Attacking FNC viewers??? ==
	I don't see how what the viewers believe is relevant to the bias of the network, rather it shows the political beliefs of the viewers. I don't think anyone is going to question that more right-of-center people choose to watch Fox News than left-of-center people, just like more left-of-center people would listen to NPR or watch Public Broadcasting. That doesn't prove or disprove network bias. Conservative-thinking people would be more willing to believe that there was a link between AQ and Iraq, or that Saddam's regime had weapons of mass destruction. That doesn't really warrant mentioning in the article at all. It neither proves nor disproves a systematic bias by the network, rather it simply means nothing. ] (]) 13:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
	:This information you refer to wasn't stating that people that watch Fox News have conservative opinions, it was that they believe things to be true which aren't. Which reflects somewhat on Fox News' ability to inform. In saying "Conservative-thinking people would be more willing to believe that there was a link between AQ and Iraq, or that Saddam's regime had weapons of mass destruction." you're saying that Conservative-thinking people are more likely to be ignorant, which is obviously POV without sources, and shouldn't be reflected in the editing of the article other, e.g. by the removal on information regarding the viewers beliefs. --] (])
			Blax, you were the one that said MSNBC did not warrant a controversy article on Misplaced Pages, although I can write a book on it based on research from the Media Research Center alone. This does not directly concern FNC but its parent company. You wanna criticize Jon Stewart for being a hypocrite in attacking FNC for this when the parent company of Viacom gives a majority of its donations to Democrats?
	::What the heck do you mean True "which aren't". I would like you to give me examples on how Fox misinforms the people. Also, your remark that conservatives would be more likely to believe that is FALSE and stupid. Bushs approval rating at the time of that announcement was around 80%, showing that all types of people believed the news, and there was no reason to not believe it at the time. All stations, not just Fox aired that info you Hypcrite.
	06:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
			'''Remove.''' ] (]) 02:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::If you could temporally segregate those beliefs to a time when <b>everyone</b> was ignorant in the general population as to the validity of statements like "Weapons of Mass Destruction were found in Iraq" you might have a point. However, a large percentage of Fox viewers believe (because they are told to disbelieve other news sources) that WMD's were actually found in Iraq, even <b> today</b>. I have relatives that email all kinds of stuff to me, culled from Fox transcripts that suppose, allude or just *say* that WMD's were found in Iraq. This is not a difference in "interpretation." It is the espousing of a viewpoint based on a falsehood. In less neutral terms, a "LIE". The poll cited is making the point that people who are avid Fox viewers are clinging to <b>false beliefs</b> and that there is a strong correlation between their loyalty to Fox News and their belief in "false-facts." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::Gentlemen, you still seem to miss or bypass the point... your personal analyses are completely irrelevant. Let's stick to policy discussions instead of playing armchair pundit and/or misrepresenting clearly unrelated discussions. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 02:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	QUOTE" I would like you to give me examples on how Fox misinforms the people." Ok, but just one today.
			:::Policy. You mean like ] and ] during the summer cool off period where nothing exciting news related happens so everything gets covered no matter how unimportant.] (]) 03:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Actually not just misinforms, LIES TO. During the Republican Convention, Fox reported that the teleprompter used by Sarah Palin failed and that she delivered her whole speech from memory. NO. Falsehood. Lie? Hmmm, Maybe just misinformed at that point. But proved to be false. In the days after the speech, the statement was debunked quickly. At this point, just an inaccurate statement, we presume.
			::::] is not a policy. Can you point out the language in ] that you believe supports the "summer cool off period" analysis to ignore dozens of sources? The <u>actual</u> language in the policy is (emphasis in original):<blockquote>Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views ''in proportion to their representation in reliable sources'' on the subject ... in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, ''not'' its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public.</blockquote>I think it's been sufficiently demonstrated that there are ample diverse reliable sources that have published this controversy. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::On Sept. 4, 2008, Journalist Jonathan Martin wrote- ''Perhaps there were moments where it scrolled slightly past her exact point in the speech. But I was sitting in the press section next to the stage, within easy eyeshot of the teleprompter. I frequently looked up at the machine, and there was no serious malfunction. A top convention planner confirms this morning that there were no major problems.''
			:::::"Controversy"? What they have published is criticism by the DNC. Does criticism by the DNC alone mount to a controversy to you? It would be a controversy if others jumped on the band wagon and supported the DNC, but it appears that largely news organizations have solely reported what the DNC has said without weighing in themselves. If the RNC criticizes Obama and that gets reported on then should that get mentioned in Obama's article? Somehow I think you would say '''No'''.] (]) 03:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			When a News Organization donates a million dollars to a political party, it deserves mention in the article. I am normally a huge fact of waiting for 'cooling off' but some events are significant enough that one does need to wait for them. You didn't need to WAIT three weeks until after Pearl Harbor to know it was an event. To those who might call that analogy hyperbole, how about the Citizens vs United decision that made this even possible? That case had major historical significance and did not require time to determine whether or not it was necessary. Fox News has donated to a major political party. It *IS* worthy of inclusion in the article. Failure to include it seriously seriously seriously undermines Misplaced Pages's credibility. ] does not apply. ] (]) 04:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::''Erickson writes that the same malfunction happened during Rudy Giuliani's speech earlier in the night. Again, I watched the teleprompter during this speech, and it worked without problem. Giuliani, as is his wont, simply decided to go off-script and add some new lines, such as one attacking Obama for his "bitter" comments.''
			:"''When a News Organization donates a million dollars to a political party, it deserves mention in the article.''"
			:Do you care to strike out or rewrite your baloney argument? Fox news didn't make the donation. Kinda of makes you whole argument seem irrelevant and out of touch(especially the comparison to Pearl Harbor).] (]) 05:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Do you care to strike out or rewrite your insult of me in clear violation of Misplaced Pages Policy? While you mention 'the argument' the tone of your statement is clearly meant as a diminutive and as an insult upon my person. Please apologize and rewrite your statement. Now on to your statement: Fox news did make the donation. Yes, Fox News is a sub set of News Corp, but Fox News is the most prominently visible member OF that corp. I know this because Fox News makes the statement that they are the number one cable news network on a regular basis. Your counter argument frankly smacks of Weasel Words, metaphorically speaking. To say that Fox News didn't make the donation is a False Correlation. ] (]) 05:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Are you suggesting Fox News prompted News Corps to make the donation that they otherwise wouldn't have? News Corps owns dozens of companies including Myspace, WSJ, and Hulu, to say that they made the donation would be equally dishonest. You are attempting to label this as a Fox News decision without any evidence for that. I won't bother askign for you to strike out your comments, they're pretty ridiculous as they stand.] (]) 22:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			'''Include.''' This is significant information that people seeking out knowledge about this organization could find useful as they try to make an informed judgment. Arguing to omit this information supports a political position and not the free exchange of information that should be the purpose of Misplaced Pages. This should be included because it is a documented fact and some readers (and that is all that is required) could find it useful in forming their own opinion about the coverage of news by the Fox organization. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	::So it was generally debunked as <b>false</b>. So we go forward to "fast-forward" to this year, 2009, APRIL.
			Agree with above comment: "When a News Organization donates a million dollars to a political party, it deserves mention in the article." Period. 04:35, 22 August 2010, EastCountyNewsie <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::On camera (look it up), as part of a story about Obama and teleprompters, <b>Glen Beck </b> says about that speech, and I quote,<b> "Do you remember Sarah Palin's teleprompter "acted up" during her acceptance speech. Remember this is the first time on the national stage, butterflies and everything.And remember she's the dummy that doesn't know Russia is a country. She gave the whole speech without it! We all watched in amazement, in the few places that actually reported it." </b> This is a lie. If Beck doesn't know, that would make him an idiot. My opinion is that this is a falsehood that helps the "Sarah Palin Story", a myth that Fox will keep reporting until it's viewer <b> assume it must be true.</b> There you go, bud, misinformed PLUS. There are plenty more. You are welcome. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:21, 21 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:Fox didn't donate a million dollars to a political party. Period.] (]) 05:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::It wasn't the elves, it was Santa! ] (]) 05:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Accusation of Synthesis ==
			::It was News Corp, a media conglomerate which specializes in news organizations, including FoxNews and the Wall Street Journal here in the USA. The donation was meant to influence elections in the USA, and so the relevant News Corp businesses are those that are in the USA!! That would include FoxNews, and so the contribution by News Corp to the Republican Governors Association certainly IS a Fox News Channel controversy. Trying to deny it by saying that FoxNews is only a subsidiary of News Corp is trying to deny reality and is a lie by omission! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Arzel has once again tried to cull valid criticism, with this in the edit summary: "''Source was from 2004 and did not mention this study. Too be sure MM attacked CMPA, but this is SYNTH in this form.''". The text removed is the following: <blockquote> Media Matters has attacked the credibility of the study, claiming that it was "funded by right-wing foundations and conducted by individuals with conservative ties."</blockquote> I have re-instated for the following reasons:
	#There is no synthesis going on here. There is a '''direct''' quote from the source, and Arzel himself admits that "''Too''<nowiki></nowiki>'' be sure MM attacked CMPA''". The accusation of synthesis of thought carries absolutely no weight, and I am having trouble understanding how Arzel even draws that conclusion.
	#The fact that the reference is three and a half years old is of no consequence. Misplaced Pages relies on ] and ], not ].
	Arzel, before you go removing any more information using buzzwords in edit summaries please bring them up on talk and ask for the community's input. Thanks. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 17:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
			::If it's not to a political party, what's the word "REPUBLICAN" doing in the name of the organization? The sheer number and extent of comments about this matter here is per se evidence of a "controversy" that must be noted on Fox's wiki page. The more comments and dispute, the more evidence the controversy must be reported. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			'''Include:''' The opinion that Fox is biased toward the GOP is probably the most noteworthy thing about the network. The fact that News Corp. Gave $1 million to the Rep. Gov. Assoc. is excellent supporting evidence of this obvious fact. No reason to delete it, other than an effort to hide the fact of Fox bias. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	#My comment in the summary should have stated "To be sure MM HAS attacked CMPA in the past."
			:No one other than the Democratic National Committee seems to think so.] (]) 05:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	#Well how about the fact that it reads like Synth by stating that MM criticized THAT study, when in fact they have not, they have criticized CMPA in the past. Hardly the same thing.
	So. Please tell me how comments made by MM in 2004 can possibly criticize a study done in 2007? ] (]) 17:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
			::'''Note:''' most of the new comers seem to be under the impression that Fox news itself made the actual donation, as opposed to it's parent company News Corps, a humongous news conglomerate who owns media entities as vast and distinct as hulu.com and myspace(why isn't this being mentioned in ''their'' articles as well?). I would advise them to re-read this discussion so that they can properly understand what is going on here. I will repeat my previous argument, if you can find notable people criticizing the donation outside of the Democratic National Committee then this could amount to a controversy.
	::Additional searching has shown that MM has made no comment on this study. ] (]) 18:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
			:::'''Counter Note:''' I am not a new comer to wikipedia, only to this discussion and I am well aware that Fox News is merely a subsidiary of News Corp, nevertheless, failure to identify Fox News as the chief political spokesman for the views of Newscorp, and those correlate the point raised here is an intellectually dishonest argument. ] (]) 05:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::Dude, the study (as referenced IN THE ARTICLE) has been ongoing since 1988. They need not re-iterate the same criticism every year. Restored. As stated before, since this is a contentious article, '''please consult with the community before attempting to remove sourced information'''./] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
			::::Fox News isn't their political spokesperson, News corps has their own spokespeople. And you speak of dishonesty.] (]) 22:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::As I explained above, this was a contribution to the USA's Republican Governors Association, and so the companies under the control of News Corp in the USA are the relevant ones. One of the major companies owned by that media conglomerate would be FoxNews. Denying this is denying the undeniable.] (]) 06:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::Dude, Read what MM has said. They were not criticizing the CMPA study on presidential elections, nor where they criticizing previous CMPA studies regarding presidential elections. That link has NOTHING to do with that study. '''There is no requirement that discussion be required to remove patently false information.''' I see now that you have changed the wording to fit your POV regarding the issue, but that doesn't make it any better, as it is still a ] of material. Unless you can find a somewhere that MM has talked about this issue specifically it has to go. ] (]) 19:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
	::::Furthermore, this is not an article on CMPA, so if you want to take this coat and put it in the CMPA article, go right ahead. ] (]) 19:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)		::::Nobody's denying the facts, just the relevancy.] (]) 22:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Sorry, guy, but you're just plain wrong. There is no "patently false information", as your own edit summary specifically admits. When you're trying to use the CMPA study to refute information contained in this article it is absolutely appropriate to include challenges to CMPA's methodology and objectivity. Now, for the last time, '''ask for the community's input before scrubbing content'''. Why is that so hard for you? /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''': You are about to witness an epic 50+ person pile-on for inclusion that ends at the subsection titled "arbitrary break". After discussion at the arbitrary break subsection ends the discussion continues at a section titled "Failed attempt at..." in a subsection of that section titled "continued discussion". Please do not be discouraged to join in the discussion from this, but if you are then at any point in time just reading the last 10 or so comments will probably get you up-to-date on where the discussion is, but please don't post if you haven't at least read the last 10 or so comments.] (]) 22:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::::OK, lets review.
	::::::# The statement read originally "Media Matters has attacked the credibility of '''the study''', claiming that it was "funded by right-wing foundations and conducted by individuals with conservative ties". Now as I pointed out, the ref did not mention the study. The ref, in fact, is unrelated to the subject entirely. I removed the information because 1) it did not reflect what the ref said, plus the ref was referring to Krauthammer and Barnes miss-representing a Pew Study in 2004 when this is related to a 2007 study.
	::::::# You, Blaxthos, reverted my good faith edit without even examing why I did what I did.
	::::::# I removed again, because of the previous reasons.
	::::::# You, reverted again, chaning the wording to "Media Matters has attacked the credibility of '''CMPA studies''', claiming that they are 'funded by right-wing foundations and conducted by individuals with conservative ties.'" However, the link is still unrelated to the paragraph for which it is included. You reinserted Synthesis of Material.
	::::::# I removed again, because of the previous reasons.
	::::::# <s>You reverted again, in viloation of the 3RR. Again inserting the Synthesis of Material.</s>::::::Now, I ask you, why do you feel I need community input to remove information that is both incorrect, and Synthesis of material? ] (]) 20:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
	:::::::Regarding your (incorrect) accusation of ] violation, simply see . Regarding the rest... Isn't it possible that maybe your interpretation is just plain wrong? Especially given your past track record on these sorts of issues, I would hope that you would be more willing to listen to community input... this certainly wouldn't be the first time that your ideas were refuted by the community. Consensus is not what you alone think, and I should certainly hope you'd be more willing to consult the community before making controversial changes. Yet again you've shown you're more interested in enforcing removal of material unflattering to things related to FNC than you are in finding out what consensus acutally is. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' This was a significant event and generated significant controversy, the subject of this article. Editors attempting to disparage sources on this talk page seem to be latching onto the fact that news organizations requested comment from Democratic organizations as evidence that this was a politically manufactured controversy when it is no such thing. ] (]) 05:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	::::::::You are correct, you did not revert more than 3 times. This however, does not validate your continued insertion of synthesis of material. Nor does it excuse your intitial revert of mine reverting to include again a false statement. You have still not explained how MM's position is germaine to this issue when they did not even comment specifically on it. ] (]) 00:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Any media organization that would donate such a large amount in such a partisan fashion would endure controversy, no matter the political affiliations involved; this should be no different. ] (]) 06:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	===Correction===
			:Just for record, first edit in 3 months, 3rd edit in 6 months for this one ] (]) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	I've reviewed the material for a third time, and I have to retract. The source does specifically cite a past poll, and I can see how Arzel wants to limit the criticism to one particular poll. A more specific source needs to be found. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
			::'''Irrelevant'''. What does that have to do with anything? You are free to leave a note when it is a new user or new SPA, but this is an established user since 2006 that has made about 1,000 edits to Misplaced Pages. Your comment for the 'record' should be outright removed for trying to mislead editors. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Thank you for reviewing it and seeing what I have been trying to say. ] (]) 14:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' It absolutely is controversial for an ostensibly neutral media outlet to not acknowledge the biases of its parent organization. When someone on NBC talks about General Electric and any controversial activity GE is doing, there is at least a reasonable frequency of the time an on-air acknowledgment that GE owns NBC, alerting the viewers that the broadcast is potentially biased. Fox is a News Corporation entity and there is therefore a reasonable case (and controversy) to be made that Fox should therefore acknowledge openly the potential for bias in its reporting. ] (]) 06:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== Simpsons ==
			* <del>'''Include''' When the parent company of a major news organization which explicitly represents itself as "fair and balanced" donates such a large sum of money to one political party, that is a conflict of interest. The public has a right to know about political donations like this one, and their potential implications for objective news reporting. As for editors claiming that personal politics are motivating those who wish to include, isn't that a clearly ad hominem argument, and sidestepping the issue at hand? Personally, I would support inclusion even if it were Time Warner or NBC Universal who had donated to the DNC. Again, this is not about politics, it's about the potential conflict of interest when the parent company of a major news organization clearly shows a political bias. As such, it deserves to be included in the Controversies section. -] (]) 06:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</del>
	Should thier censorship of the simpsons be mentioned?
			::Note, first edit in 7 months. ] (]) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	or thier treatment of obama? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:::'''Irrelevant'''. Soxwon, this is again an irrelevant attempt to mislead editors. This is not a new user, nor is he a single purpose account. Strike your note immediately. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Note, I am busy in RL and do not often login to Misplaced Pages. I prefer to browse as an IP, but if a discussion catches my interest or I want to work on an article I will log in. Inactivity and then sudden activity, by itself, should not be criteria for labeling me as a meatpuppet. Now, if I had a long history of popping into controversial political topics on Misplaced Pages and advocating a liberal viewpoint, your conclusion might have merit. As it stands, I don't think it does.
			:::Also, I am changing my position to '''Exclude''' because I have changed my mind, and now do not think this meets Misplaced Pages guidelines for inclusion (see the latest section on this talkpage.) -] (]) 07:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Of course. This shouldn't even be up for debate. News Corp owns Fox, and the quote given by the News Corp spokesperson about the donation was very specifically ideological. It's difficult to imagine a reason why a reader should be kept from this information while deciding on source of bias for this network. There's no legal independence by FNC from News Corp and the size of the donation is enormous even for a large corporate donor to a party committee. ] (]) 07:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Please explain Daily Show removal ==
			::First edit in 6 months. ] (]) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant'''. Notes are to be used against brand new accounts and new single purpose accounts. FNV is neither, making quality edits to articles for over four years. Your constant attempts to discredit votes of established users with misleading half-truths is unacceptable. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Geez. I can't believe this is even being debated. Of course, there have been '''lots''' of things that have been debated (and voted on) in the nearly seven years I've been editing here that have surprised me, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that I am surprised. --] (]) 08:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::First edit in 3 weeks. ] (]) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' I'm surprised and disheartened that this is even up for debate. ] (]) 10:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	Someone removed the part in this entry about an episode of the Daily Show critical of Fox News. Why was it removed? I've tried putting it back but get reverted as soon as I do so. The initial edit summary said that the Daily Show is not reliable, but there is no reliability issue here since no one is trying to use the Daily Show as a source of facts but only to source its own "criticism" of Fox News. The next edit summary said "agree" with the last guy and now I'm hearing that my own POV opinions do not belong here. Can someone explain this, because there is no reliability issue nor does this have anything to do with my opinions? Perhaps there is too much space given to the mention of this episode, but at the very least shouldn't we have a one liner about being criticized by a notable political satire show?] (]) 20:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:I think the problem was that I used the wrong summary for my edit. The thing is, the Daily Show is a comedy show, and so things that Jon Stewart and the other comedians say in the course of reporting the fake news should not be considered to be reliable, except as an indicator of what the writers of the Daily Show think their audience will find funny. It's not even reliable as to what the Daily Show staff actually believes. Do people seriously believe "Randolph was a ] of war; Murdoch &mdash; he's a cheerleader." Maybe, maybe not... but the fact that it was said on the Daily Show tells us nothing.
	:Now, if there was a "In Popular Culture" section, then it might make sense to include this there. But it shouldn't be lumped in with people who are legitimately criticizing the network. — ] (]) 21:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::Well thanks for straightening that out. However I still say that reliability is not an issue here, and I don't think anyone is taking John Stewart ''literally'' in the example you site which is a claim that sits at the foundation of your new explanation. The Daily Show is a political satire show, and as such does what satire has done for centuries, utilize comedy to offer social critique. In other words the Daily Show is not just some "fake news" show that panders to the whims of its audience by whatever means necessary to get a laugh. This would be like saying that any show offering social or political critique, however "serious" it may seems on its face, is simply a show that maximizes utility by pandering to media consumers of one kind or another. Do you think that the (liberal) audience of the Daily Show doesn't actually take something substantive out of this show? Do you think its all just a laugh to them? Do you seriously think it is for Stewart? He's dead serious with his critiques, however "funny" they may seem in presentation. His critics and his fans certainly know this. The fact that he gets a laugh while doing this should not be a basis to discount what he has to say, and there is a long historical tradition of various forms of satire that backs this up. What's next? Are we going to claim that ]'s ] wasn't actually a critique of what he saw as the religious and patriotic fervor motivating war? I'm sorry but the fact that its comedy doesn't change anything. Its notable critique. I might agree that the length and detail of what was originally there is unnecessary. How do you feel about a one liner instead?] (]) 22:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:::There must be some threshold for inclusion, otherwise every and any barb directed at FNC could be placed in the article. Since this particulary satire has not received any independant mainstream coverage, listing it here comes awfully close to ]. The fact that the Daily Show is a critic of FNC can be noted in the article but to get into a specific skit or criticism without outside independant sourcing may not be the best way to go. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	:Personally, i think what was written was ok in itself but it seemed like it was more suited to a trivia section (which is not really encouraged) or as another person said a "In Popular Culture" section. compared to more serious studies etc this bit just seems out of place and not really a worthwhile entry. ] (]) 22:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
			*'''Include''' That it's controversial is evident from the comments on this page. Whichever side you're on, there's clearly debate about this, and that's the criteria. There are reputable media sources to back up the story. It's noteworthy, it goes up. ] (]) 10:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::I agree with Ramsquire. It'd be hard to demonstrate why this particular criticism is any more notable than any other jokes directed at FNC. The Daily Show has actually done satirizing FNC, so it seems you'd have to maintain a stricter criteria for inclusion in cases like this. One good question to go on is: has the criticism itself received any "independent mainstream coverage"? --] (]) 23:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::You raise an interesting point, but you'll find that very few criticisms of anything mentioned here on Misplaced Pages have received this kind of "independent mainstream coverage." Generally when criticisms are included they are so because the source of the criticisms is notable enough, and not because the the criticisms themselves have been noted, attributed and commented on by reliable and notable third parties.] (]) 02:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
	As others have pointed on in the past, ''satire'' is a form of criticism (even if it is comedy). That doesn't necessarily mean an individual incident (especially ''every'' incident) should be covered, however I do believe that a general mention of the criticism oft mentioned on The Daily Show is appropriate (preferably via reliable secondary sources). It is not an issue of reliable sourcing (as alleged in the repeated removal), but since The Daily Show is a primary source, Ubiq is correct in noting that secondary sourcing is preferred. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 23:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
			: This is the best argument I've seen so far in this discussion. There is clearly controversy. Those who point out that it is not actually Fox News itself that made the donation should be satisfied with a clear, factual statement that its parent company was responsible for the donation. But not mentioning the controversy at all strikes me as a POV willful ignoring of facts. ] (]) 12:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:A general mention that TDS has criticized FNC is probably appropriate, but as others have mentioned, specific skits should probably not be covered unless they recieve specific coverage outside the show itself. For example, the SNL fake news regarding Obama and Clinton was covered outside SNL and became a story in itself. However, TDS and others criticize through satire on a daily basis, and it becomes a point as to where the line is drawn for inclusion, less articles become littered with satirical comments from various sources. Furthermore, satire is usually in the form of an extreme point of view done for laughs, and not an objective view of the situation. ] (]) 00:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
	::So we agree that a one liner short reference is appropriate here? I'm not opposed to that at all and don't think that this particular mention is that noteworthy in and of itself. However, I objected to the rationale for removal, which was that the Daily show was not reliable as a source for criticism, and then as seen above because it the show is done within a humorous medium. If we can agree that these are not reasons to exclude a reference I'm more than happy to admit that this particular episode isn't necessarily notable, and or that a much more general reference to TDS is appropriate.] (]) 02:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Is it really debatable to include an empirical fact? Surprised that someone had the gaul to call it manufactured. And how is it not notable? It got a lot of coverage. This should be a '''given''' to be included. ] (]) 10:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== POV dispute. ==
			* '''Include''' Obviously newsworthy. Wording is always contentious, but the donation, particularly its size, is an undeniable fact, and worth including in an encyclopedia article about an avowedly right wing information disseminating organization. I'm disheartened that this is up for debate, but not surprised. Fox News partisans consistently descend upon such issues and create false controversies. Including this is NOT controversial. The contribution itself, IS controversial. The former refers to the encyclopedia, the latter refers to interpretations that can be made on all sides as to the implications of said contribution. --] (]) 10:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	The article begins with five paragraphs of Democrats saying they hate Fox, followed by one paragraph depicting exceptions. This is a bias of uneven venue, ironically the same thing Fox is being accused of. The first paragraph also contains four blatant ad-hominem insults against Fox, and the fact that they are cited does not change that. What is the relevance of including them? Is Misplaced Pages a collection of fart jokes now? The "Misplaced Pages edits" section is also not noteworthy to anyone except Misplaced Pages contributors, and shouldn't be in the article. Misplaced Pages's internal edit wars are not content for external controversy. The site is world-editable. Grow the fuck up. --] (]) 21:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	: I agree. There are too many primary sources that are basically stating opinions. We need either second or third party references to comment on these accusations, or we need an independent non-bias study of the accusations. ] (]) 23:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
	::No, we will not be performing "studies" on the criticisms. Also, the nature of this sort of article requires primary sourcing. We should, of course, limit inclusion of trivial criticism, or criticism from voices without due weight; we should not, in any case, attempt to evaluate the correctness of their assertions or "comment" on them. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	::: Blaxthos, I don't think you understand how references work. Primary sources are never as good as commentary by secondary sources, because using primary sources introduces POV and OR. See ]. ] (]) 15:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
	::::If we didn't use primary sources here there wouldn't be much of an article, almost the whole thing is one party criticizing FNC without a third party even talking about it. ] (]) 14:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
	::::: Maybe the article needs to be paired down, or removed altogether. ] (]) 01:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
			* '''INCLUDE''' Facts are facts. If you dance with the Republican party, donate to one of their campaign organizations, you almost exclusively cite pollsters who donate to the Republican party, and you create astroturf campaigns (tea party) to support the Republican party, then you have no business acting like you are nothing more than part and parcel of the Republican party. If you try to project that you are anything else, you are lying to the audience. Which is ok as long as everyone knows you're lying. But don't act like you're telling the truth. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	This article screams liberal POV. My alarm went off after reading the first paragraph. This article needs to be more neutral or removed altogether.] (]) 22:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
	:An article titled "Fox News Channel '''Controversies'''" (emphasis added) will generally not be flattering to Fox News and that fact does not make it POV. If you want to make an article titled "Fox News Saves Little Children and Gives to the Homeless", then by all means do so, but don't call an article "liberal POV" simply because it discusses controversies. ] (]) 01:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
	:: The problem is with the way references are used. Someone saying they don't like Fox News for whatever reason isn't notable in and of itself. Even if that person is world famous (or a screaming liberal). What makes it notable is if a third party notes the comment. The references need to be reviewed and all primary sources should be removed or replaced with a third party reference. ] (]) 04:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
			* '''INCLUDE''' "Facts are facts" (above) says it well. If Americans expect the news media to report facts, any accusations of any bias aside, then reporting facts about media companies is essential. If the entity in question is a subsidiary, it still reflects the corporation's viewpoint. Political donations are a fact, and laws generally require disclosure. So the fact is unassailable. It's not as if there is a secret News Corp/Fox donation of $1 million to Move On that has not been leaked. Arguments about the "manufactured controversy" are irrelevant. ] (]) 12:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC) {{
	This Article seems to have an extreme Left-wing Bias, this is an obvious fact, not my opinion. I would also cast my vote to have the article deleted. I appreciate the help ], I'll try to look out for my mistakes in the future. ] (]) 00:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
			::First edit in 4 months ] (]) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant'''. Dadadata is a long-time editor that has been clearly established and is not a brand new user or new single purpose account. You are leaving these notes on multiple established users, and it is blatantly disruptive. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''INCLUDE''' (update my comment immediately above) See the new Joseph Pulitzer biography by Jeffrey Brown. It shows that the historic relationship between mass media, media owners whether individuals or corporations, and politics has always been one of money and electoral support. This is only the latest in a long, long tradition of mass media taking sides in elections. It is pointless to pretend otherwise. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== The fact my updated ref points to something I did has no bearing on the fact it predates anything else of its kind. ==
			* '''Include''' This was clearly newsworthy, we need only look at the sources and the discussion it caused in media. I do not think the distinction between Fox News and the news corp is relevant. It is also a very large sum of money. ] (]) 11:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	(1) "Spam" is unsolicited. A reference that denies me my rightful credit is about as solicited as it gets.
			::First edit in 5 Months ] (]) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant''' Once again, this is an inappropriate 'note' made in an attempt to discredit the vote of an established user that has made thousands of edits to Misplaced Pages since 2006. Futurebird is not a new account. Futurebird is not a single purpose account. Your comments are misleading and need to be struck immediately. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Obviously. This has been all over the news for days and is very relevant. The argument that News Corps isn't Fox News is baloney, like trying to claim that Walt Disney's "Peter Pan" isn't Disney. Misplaced Pages is not here to aid megacorporations with their shady obfuscating tactics and damage control, it's here to dispense knowledge. ] (]) 11:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	(2) Before my first edit, this page alluded to the use of "Faux News" as a derisive term for "Fox News." I can provide an earlier instance of this derisive term. If that instance happens to be something I did, so what? If you're genuinely interested in accurately representing the history of this term, and still think my reference needs to be removed, I'd submit you need to find an ealier instance of "Faux News" online (you won't - I was the first) before doing so. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
			* '''Include''' This is timely and relevant and newsworthy, and there is no need to suppress or avoid the fact of this donation. ] (]) 13:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
			*'''Include'''. Obviously passes ] and ], and no problems with ]. --] (]) 14:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' This is an important fact in an ongoing discussion about the role of fox news in the national media. To leave out this fact about it's parent company's behavior would distort that important discussion. It's a fact and it's relevant to the role Fox News plays in the national media.] (]) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	:]. What is more important, that the content is in here, or that you get credit? That's why I reverted. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' I think it's important this should be included in this article as it's easily referenced and relevant. A major criticism/controversy regarding Fox News is its perceived Republican bias while claiming to be "fair and balanced." Confirmed political donation of a large sum by FN's owner in the run-up to an election is part of that controversy and deserves to be mentioned in that context. ]] 15:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::It was a change to the reference only. I'm not selling anything. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			* '''Include''' Leave the politics at home and let the Wiki record the facts. There is every reason to include this, and no reason to have them erased, especially since it appears to be pursued for the PR purposes of the subject. Stop the FUD; a child company IS the parent company under another name. ] (]) 15:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::It appears that you are selling your website/blog. My only position is that YOU shouldn't be the one changing the reference to link to your website/blog since its a conflict of interest. If another non-affilliated editor did it, I wouldn't care (I barely care now, honestly). Especially since the point is that "Fauxnews" has been said, not who said it first and the Colmes/Franken tidbit is really trivial. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
			::Note, first edit in month. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant''' Longtime established user that goes little more than 30 days without making an edit. Really? Again, disruptive. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' giving ] weight. If there are enough sources on the controversy as more than a single event, cover it in detail. Otherwise, the single event has gained enough coverage that it warrants a sentence in the controversies section. The exact poll numbers about how they are perceived are undue weight in my opinion and there is plenty of room for one or two sentences about their political donations. We don't have to cover it as a shady practice or judge them for it. Merely point it out and mention that it led to criticism. ] (]) 15:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Shocked this is even being debated. ] (]) 15:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	::::], ] / ], ], take your pick... /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
			It seems that a majority of the people here that wish to include it are under the impression than FNC never addressed this "controversy." In fact, Bret Baier talked about it on Special Report the day the story broke. ] (]) 16:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Is it safe to assume that some reverting is in order? ] <sup>]</sup> 00:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' A legitimate news item, covered by dozens of ultra-reputable outlets, one that has a great deal of relevance to a complete picture of Fox, why is this even under discussion? I don't even see why this is in the "Controversies" section - there is no controversy as to whether this is true, and I note that both ] and ] contain descriptions of their philanthropy, precisely because this is essential to a complete picture of who they are. ] (]) 16:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Clearly. Done. /] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
			::Note, first in 2 months, third in 9 months. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant''' TomPritchford is an established editor since 2004 with edits to many different subjects. He is neither a new account, nor a new single purpose account. The notes you have left to discredit established editors are misleading and disruptive. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Can we all just take a second to re-read the definition of controversy? <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== Juan Williams on Special Report ==
			* '''Include''' I would not only suggest including this, but because of this discussion, would recommend adding separate section for News Corporation exclusive items.] (]) 16:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Why are Juan Williams' appearances on Special Report characterized as being rare? He is quite a common sight on the "All-Star Panel." Perhaps this ought to be changed somehow? Especially since none of it is sourced, so I'm guessing its "first person" testimony. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:It's changed by now (and should stay this way) since you're right. --] (]) 05:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)		* Per the clear and overwhelming consensus of this RfC, I restored the material to the parent article. I'm not sure why this pov fork even exists. As far as I'm concerned it should be merged into the parent article. ] (]) 16:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Point of order -- this article is a split due to ], <u>'''not'''</u> a ]. If you're curious "why this even exists", please check the history before throwing around the "POV fork" label. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 18:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	==Photos==
			* '''Include''' It is vitally important that this issue be on wikipedia and well-known to the public at large. You cannot let Fox News edit Misplaced Pages at their whim because something paints their organization in a negative light. It would be absolutely irresponsible to Misplaced Pages's charter, just as the entire incident is absolutely irresponsible to journalism in this country, if you were to allow them to scrub this controversy from the page. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	According to ] information added to it must be supported by ]. I am basing my entry on what my sources state. If you want to change my edit, then please provide your own sources. But please do not misquote the source used. I am using the language of the source I provided, not what editors of the article believe to be the case. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Clearly include this. It is newsworthy and noteworthy (see above list of cited national sources, e.g. those posted by Blaxthos) and should clearly be listed as a "controversy" on a page dedicated to such. It provides evidence of a conflict of interest underlying Fox's reporting, even were one to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were aiming for objectivity. --] (]) 17:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	I got a reliable source. It is better to find a source which does not employ waffly language like "apparently doctored," especially in situations where journalistic integrity are involved. What I am saying is that you are morally responsible for misleading people by using a weak source and not finding a better one. (Also, I was not quoting. If you were quoting, you should have used quotation marks. Not using quotation marks would be plagiarism.)] (]) 01:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
			::Note, first edit in month. ] (]) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''The most irrelevant "note" yet'''. Now you're saying that if someone takes '''THIRTY DAYS''' off, they are no longer allowed to have a voice on Misplaced Pages? Even further, your claim is a completely false. Spiffulent made edits on August 2 and August 20. User has made edits to several different subjects since May 2010, and is neither a new account nor a single purpose accounts. This is misleading, disruptive, and borderline deserves to be reported to ]. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' A media organization giving an unprecedented donation in favor of a political party, particularly when it is widely reported as it is, is an event comfortably meeting WP notability guidelines. ] (]) 17:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Note, first edit in 3 months. ] (]) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant'''. Netcrusher88 is an editor that registered in '''2002''' with edits to many different subjects. He/she is neither a new account, nor a single purpose account. Your notes are disruptive, and I have cleared up every single one of your misleading discrediting attempts. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Not unprecedented. GE has donated well over a half a million dollars to Democrats in the last year as well as about half that to Republicans. NewsCorp itself has historically given more to Democrats, why is it now a controversy? ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' This is one of the most significant controversies regarding Fox News to date. Of course it should go in Misplaced Pages. This place is about preserving knowledge and history, let's do our jobs here. ] (]) 17:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC) Edit: Right now, it's in the article as a single line at the end of the "]" section. Is this really what all the fuss was about? <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	:You can't be serious. It's not a good idea to label yourself as a troll within your first ten posts. My edit is from the first independant report of the story. They couldn't use the stronger language of the Globe and Mail because the story was still developing when they wrote it, and I added it then. ] and ] by accusing people of being morally responsible of misleading people, especially when I am the one who asked for another stronger source. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
			:Really, how can something they did not do be their most significant controversy? ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' The whole point over this is this is both in the correct section, controversies, and that is had reporting from every major news outlet (including fox news http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/18/news-corp-gives-m-republican-governors-association/). What is going on here is putting a known fact that simply calls into question the objectivity of the station and its "Fair and Balanced" motto. --] (]) 10:36, 22 August 2010 (PST) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	::No no, I was being serious, and I maintain my opinion. I've never read most of Misplaced Pages's rules, and don't care to. You are lucky in this case that I happen to have not obeyed them.] (]) 04:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
			:FNC did not make the donation, NewsCorp did and it is included there. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' This is so obvious I would wonder why it's even being discussed but for the fact that I'm well aware of how Misplaced Pages is used by POV advocates. Sooner or later Misplaced Pages is going to have to come up with some other method of editing articles. If all the time and energy devoted to arguing over manufactured controversies like this one (over whether to include this information) were diverted to discovering alternative energy sources, the problem would have been long solved. ] (]) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	All this is an excellent example of the old "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin debate." Debating about Fox News´s "alleged" right-wingedness "controversial" is like discussing around in circles about the "controversy" of whether or not ingesting a lot of snackfoods and sugary drinks, coupled with lack of excercise causes people to become fat. ] (]) 14:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
			:It is included on the NewsCorp article. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' For a media corporation to back a political party by making the largest single donation that that party receives is a clear indication of corporate favour, and a direct and unequivocal admission of editorial bias (something that is hardly a secret if you have ever watched more than ten seconds of Fox News). The purpose of Misplaced Pages is as a peer-moderated encyclopedia, not as a PR vehicle for a brand. Should the brand feel guilty, or wish to hide this donation, then perhaps they SHOULDN'T HAVE MADE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Misplaced Pages is a historic record. The donation occurred. It is controversial. Therefore it belongs in the Fox News Controversies page. As it is a controversy regarding Fox News and News Corp. Would Fox News employees prefer a new page entitled News Corp Controversies? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== Pot Calling Kettle? ==
			:It is included on the NewsCorp article, you are confusing the two. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' NC is the parent company of FNC. The objectivity of FNC is regularly called into question, and in this context the actions of their parent company are pertinent. Perhaps it would assuage those who deny that this is pertinent if similar text was added to articles for other NC branches, such as WSJ. -] (]) 18:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	And which far-left-leaning individual wrote this article? Anything a moderate or conservative person says in the medda is controversial to such a person, as the comment or reported news story simply chafes against their leftist world view. Controversies? Sometimes the truth hurts, Lefties. It appears Fox News is simply self defense against an ever-more-liberal mainstream media. The groups cited as unhappy with Fox--MoveOn.org, etc., were not accurately described by the writer of this article as uber-liberal, with their own (anti-conservative) political agendas. Play fair. (Unsigned)
			::Note, first edit in 3 months. ] (]) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant''' Established user, not new, not single purpose, yadda yadda '''''your note is disruptive'''''. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Should I blame you for everything your parents do? ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Extensive coverage for highly controversial actions by Fox News. Notable and deserves inclusion. If consensus is ignored after this RFC, the 'editor' that removes the statement should receive a block. ] (]) 18:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	I don't think it is the comment or slant that bothers some people so much as the occasional blatant deception, such as the photography "controversy" discussed above. Whether or not the truth hurts isn't something one is likely to learn by watching Fox News, so much as whether or not it hurts to have uglified versions of one's face broadcast to an international audience.
			:FNC did not take this action. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include.''' That NC, FNC's parent, has made partisan contributions is relevant. -] (]) 18:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	I like to imagine we're all in this together, trying to make the place a bit nicer. Let's try to avoid hyphenated name-calling. ] (]) 19:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
			::Little to no edits outside of 9 years ago. ] (]) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Why? Does NewsCorp control the reporting at FNC? ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' This goes to the very essence of Misplaced Pages. Obviously this story has merit and should be included, if this were about Daily Kos or Huffington, no one would be disputing this, as they have never billed themselves as "fair and balanced"...if Fox is Balanced, some attention needs to be paid to this story in regards to the obvious contradiction. ''']''' 18:57, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:I think you are confusing FNC and NewsCorp. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			*While there is some COI issues with the scrubbing coming from a fox news IP address, as an old hand wikipedia editor being asked to come "vote" on an request for comment from offsite, I'm note sure dailykos people get the "not vote" culture. Sure, the million dollar donation is significant right now, but will it be notable compared to the more blatant shows of bias fox news has done in the past? I'm thinking that to not overburden this article, the more wiki way of doing things (at least back in my day) would be to spin off the donation to a "Fox news GOP donation controversy" article and then reference it from either here or the criticism of fox new article (assuming there is one)--] (]) 19:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	Sigh. It's about CONTROVERSIES of Fox News, of course it's going to talk about their CONTROVERSIES, which will, in turn, downplay Fox news. ] (]) 20:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
			* '''Abstain''' Although FNC did not make the donation directly, their parent corporation did, and they apparently failed to report on it while the rest of the mass media did. It seems like *that* is the controversy, not the donation itself. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== talking points ==
			:Incorrect, FNC reported it the same day. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Controversy: "a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views<ref>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/controversy</ref>" -- If this edit page doesn't constitute an expression of opposing views on the topic, I don't know what does. FNC has said there is no reason the donation would weigh on their news coverage. Others see it as the company putting its money where its mouth is. The donation was enough to garner wide and critical mainstream coverage, as well as continued coverage online. It speaks to the widely-accepted conservative bias at the station -- Or it constitutes parent company's free speech. Controversy. Include. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	hello, could someone add the "talking points sent by the white house" section to the criticism--that is, if everything thinks it is necessary to add. I would do it myself but i broke my toe about 2 hours ago and i dont feel like doing anything but drinking pabst blue ribbon. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			It is included on the NewsCorp article. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Yr right. On that News Corp entry, it should link directly back to this page. The blurb there references its conservative media outlets (the largest and most obvious being FNC): "In anticipation of the 2010 elections, News Corp. donated $1 million to the Republican Governors Association. The move was criticized to be journalistically compromising the already conservative leaning media outlets owned by the corporation." Include. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Done. <small>'''''Formerly Codename Colorado'''''</small> | <span style="color:#008800">The</span> <span style="color:#004400">Earwig</span> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><sup>(] | ] | ])</sup></span> 19:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Anything cited by a legitimate source that is relevant to the article it is to be placed in should be added, no matter how controversial it is. --] (]) 20:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== Bot report : Found duplicate references ! ==
			:It is included with the NewsCorp article. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	In , I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
	* "Language Log" :
	** <nowiki>{{cite web| last = Lieberman| first = Mark| title = Multiplying ideologies considered harmful| publisher = Language Log|date=2005-12-23| url = http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002724.html| accessdate = 2006-11-06}}</nowiki>
	** <nowiki>{{cite web| last = Liberman| first = Mark| title = Multiplying ideologies considered harmful| publisher = Language Log|date=2005-12-23| url = http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002724.html| accessdate = 2006-11-06}}</nowiki>
	] (]) 17:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Pretty much since its founding, FNC's been accused of being more of a PR organization than impartial news source, and this event is certainly germane to those discussions. ] (]) 20:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC) <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	==BST controversy==
	I am surprised that this is not addressed: ]. This should be included. --] (]) 19:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)		:News Corp is NOT FNC. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Fox news has a factual record of not only supporting a specific party, but works actively with both their journalists and news programming to manufacture news according to their political agenda rather than adherence to their stated objective analysis. This is not the only place or political party where political bias occurs, but is quite notable to the extent that it goes about doing this. The one million dollar donation is an example of this. ] (]) 20:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	:It's not particularly relevant to ]. While both FNC and ] are owned by the same parent company (] which is owned by ]), they are separate entities. A controversy surrounding one is not necessarily a controversy surrounding the other. - ] ] 19:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
			:Prove it. Furthermore, FNC is not the organization that donated. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::You know Arzel, I really think consensus has been reached here. That you are, in fact, wrong. ] ] (]) 21:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' for sure. Other corporate wikipedia pages such as GE, LMCO, MSFT, GOOG, contain information about their political donations, I fail to see what makes Fox special ] (]) 18:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== See also section ==
			:FNC is not the parent company. This is already included at News Corp which is the the organization which made the donation. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' It is absolutely outrageous to even be arguing this. Of course it should be included as a "controversy". Why? BECAUSE IT IS EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL. ] (]) 16:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC) (UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
			::Why is it extrememly controversial when previous large donations from others (including FNC) to Democrats are not? ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Comment''' With all due respect, Arzel, that is not relevant here. This RfC was started in order to achieve consensus on whether or not NewsCorp's donation of $1 million dollars to a GOP organization is ''controversial'', given that NewsCorp owns Fox News - a major news organization in the United States. Personally, I agree with you: all political donations by the parent companies of major US news organizations should be scrutinized and criticized, whether it be NewsCorp, Time Warner, NBC Universal, etc. But again, that is not the issue here. -] (]) 23:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::''This RfC was started in order to achieve consensus on whether or not NewsCorp's donation of $1 million dollars to a GOP organization is ''controversial''...''
			::::Um...no it wasn't. Whether it is "controversial" is irrelevant to this RfC consideration (but is a good discussion to have). Whether it is relevant under WP:V/WP:Undue for inclusion in "Fox News Controversies" is the issue. Please read the RfC again. ] (]) 23:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::] has already been shown based on the list of multiple credible sources who have reported on this donation and its implications (PBS, CNN, BusinessWeek, LA Times, NY Times, etc.) See above, near the beginning of this RfC, for a more complete list of sources. ] is trickier. I note that ] states that ''"in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public."'' I would argue the prevalent viewpoint that this is a controversial donation which has implications for Fox News has already been established in multiple reliable sources (again, see the list above). Thus, it satisfies concerns about ]. Moving on to ], I would suggest that the official responses from both Fox News and NewsCorp be included, which would satisfy NPOV by including both sides of this controversy. -] (]) 02:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::''] has already been shown based on the list of multiple credible sources who have reported on this donation and its implications (PBS, CNN, BusinessWeek, LA Times, NY Times, etc.)''
			::::::I believe the jury is still out on that question. I've not yet read those sources purportedly supporting this issue as warranting inclusion in this article. I will when the brouhaha attendant to this DKOS incident subsides.
			::::::''I would argue the prevalent viewpoint that this is a controversial donation which has implications for Fox News...''
			::::::"The prevalent viewpoint" for the purposes of this article, as I'm confident you are aware, will be ascertained by the provision of reliable sourcing reflecting that viewpoint. While I've not yet read the purported sourcing, specific cites (as opposed to generic characterizations) could be determinative. Perhaps I've overlooked them, but I've yet to see one cited.
			::::::''Moving on to ], I would suggest that the official responses from both Fox News and NewsCorp be included, which would satisfy NPOV by including both sides of this controversy.''
			::::::I didn't address ] as, at this point in the discussion, it is premature and unrelated to the RfC. However, assuming your position prevails, the "source" of the purported controversy, if identifiable in reliable sourcing, should also be included. I believe ] has argued that point quite effectively and correctly.
			::::::As to this discussion, it will be lost in this morass of an RfC and will probably be best continued elsewhere. ] (]) 12:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::I agree with BloodDoll that the article should go beyond merely stating the fact of the contribution, but should include a fair presentation of each major point of view about it. Whatever Fox News/News Corp. might say about it would certainly be important, but if they have no comment we might include a comment downplaying the issue from a Republican politician or a right-wing columnist. We should also fairly summarize the criticism. ]<small>&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</small> 16:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	Could someone please explain to me ''why'' exactly we have internal links in the "See also" section going to BBC controversies, CBS controversies, CNN controversies? Is it possible that we should add controversies to other controversy pages, such as, if they exist, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, Headline News, or PBS controversies? <small>'''''Formerly Codename Colorado'''''</small> | <span style="color:#008800">The</span> <span style="color:#004400">Earwig</span> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><sup>(] | ] | ])</sup></span> 03:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' GE isn't a media corporation. News Corp is. Thus, their journalistic credibility is at stake. Their main arm in the U.S., Fox News, is therefore the natural face of News Corp in the states. Therefore, any political action News Corp takes in the states should be posted and heavily cited on the Fox News page. ] (]) 16:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)(UTC)<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	== Criticism from other networks? ==
			::Strawman argument. Show that FNC played a part in this decision. ] (]) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Come on guys. It's a fact, it's newsworthy, it's in. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 21:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
	Potentially, could we add a section detailing criticism of Fox News from other television networks? I'm thinking of ]. <small>'''''Formerly Codename Colorado'''''</small> | <span style="color:#008800">The</span> <span style="color:#004400">Earwig</span> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><sup>(] | ] | ])</sup></span> 03:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
			* '''Include'''. The article in ''The Washington Post'' singles out Fox News as particularly prone to political influence from the unusually large donation. Notable and relevant. ] (]) 21:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' its newsworthy and the connection has been made to Fox News by multiple reliable sources including the New York Times and the Guardian. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include'''. It's in the news. It happened. People want to know about it. It's a controversy that involved Fox News. Simple. - ] (]) 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Photo manipulation ==
			::Note, first edit in 3 weeks. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include'''. It is public information, as political contributions are required to be. It is newsworthy and relevant in that it shows "fair and balanced" is not balanced. ] (]) 21:37, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Note, first edit in a month. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::'''Irrelevant''' Established user, not new, not single purpose, yadda yadda '''''your note is disruptive'''''. One month.. Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include'''. Who actually made the donation is irrelevant. Claims about the DNC being the only one complaining are irrelevant. The DNC represents 72 million people. This is about FNC controversies. Looking at the comments here and the included citations, this is a controversy. End of story. ] (]) 22:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			<small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
			* '''Include''' Just the amount of controversy over whether or not it SHOULD be considered controversial makes the case for it being controversial. Basically: News organizations are supposed to be impartial, just giving facts and discussing all sides of the issues at hand. When the organization clearly supports a particular ideology (republicans) it's showing that it's not fair and is in fact biased. ALSO Fox News is owned by NEWS CORP, we're not stupid enough to think that an umbrella corporation is a separate entity. <small>— ] (] • ]) has made ] outside this topic. {{ #if: | The preceding ] comment was added at {{{2}}} (UTC).}}</small>
			* '''Include''' A purported balanced news organization gave a million dollars to one party and that party is the one they're (News Corp/Fox News) accused of being in bed with. It should absolutely be included, as it's been a headline controversy pretty much everywhere outside of Fox (who hasn't even bothered to report on it). ] (]) 07:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	I am about to restore the deleted section of this article entitled "Photo manipulation" and delete the final paragraph, which is sourced to a blog. ] of ] clearly explains why these images fall under fair use.
			::Note, first edit in a month. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	:5. '''Film and television screen shots:''' For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television.
			:::'''Irrelevant''' Established user, not new, not single purpose. Do not leave these notes again. ] (]) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	:7. '''Paintings and other works of visual art:''' For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school.
			::::'''Relevant''' Thanks for including notes, being established and not new and not a single purpose do not disqualify someone from being a potential meatpuppet. Although ] doesn't discredit a meatpuppet's argument if it is legitimate, it does point out that it often leads people like this person to come make arguments without the facts (like claiming Fox didn't report on this when they were the first people to). If you think his argument is worth repeating(lol) please feel free to argue it yourself or ask the user to come back to elaborate(rofl).] (]) 21:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::If you can't take your own "arguments" seriously with your little "lol" and "rofl"s, why should anyone else? You imply that established users that haven't edited in just 21 days are obvious meatpuppets. I won't respond to your tripe anymore, because obviously you think this is all a funny game. Good luck on trying to make a consensus of 3 plants outweigh a consensus of 80 editors. I'm sure you'll "lol" and "rofl" your way to victory. ] (]) 20:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' Obviously. Talk about a no-brainer. Additionally, those politically motivated editors, left or right, who attempt to whitewash Misplaced Pages or use it to push their political views should be permanently banned from the project. ] (]) 15:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
	Clearly, the images are necessary to make discussion of the subject understandable and the fair use claims at the image pages fit entirely within the guidelines. Without the statements from the blog, there's no problem with any of the sources. --] (]) 03:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
			==="Arbitrary break"===
	::It does appear that two of them fall under fair use. The Attack Dog picture appears to fail 1.
			{{hat|Discussion irrelevant to the inclusion or exclusion of News Corps donation.(Discussion of concerns related to presumption of meatpuppets)}}
			<!-- Neutral enough for everybody? -->
			This is amazing. I actually counted over '''50 '''potential meat puppets. (Edit: inserting ''italicized words for clarification'')''For the purpose of discouraging future meat puppets'' I am now citing ]
			<blockquote>
			For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity.
			</blockquote>
			Please continue the debate.] (]) 23:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			Edit: I am not calling anyone in particular a meat puppet, only saying the obvious truth that there are meat puppets present and noting their numbers shouldn't influence the discussion.(]). All contributors are welcome to make their arguments down below.] (]) 21:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			<!-- Note: if you really want to respond to me and not let me have the final word, then go right ahead, this is not an attempt by me to prevent a response, just to let new comers get down to the arguments and not have to read through this meat puppet conversation to get there. In other words: ignore the do not modify warning the hat gives.-->
	::1. No free equivalent. Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose. Where possible, non-free content is transformed into free material instead of using a fair-use defense, or replaced with a freer alternative if one of acceptable quality is available; "acceptable quality" means a quality sufficient to serve the encyclopedic purpose. (As a quick test, before adding non-free content requiring a rationale, ask yourself: "Can this non-free content be replaced by a free version that has the same effect?" and '''"Could the subject be adequately conveyed by text without using the non-free content at all?"''' If the answer to either is yes, the non-free content probably does not meet this criterion.)
			::With utmost respect, I reject that every single wikipedia editor who disagrees with you and states the obvious, that NewsCorps donation is controversial for Fox News, should be labeled a potential "meatpuppet". All of the editors here, even ones that have been here a very long time, should not be dismissed just because several had their attention called to this important discussion.] (]) 03:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::The other two do appear to satisfy all 10 criteria, but 3a states
			:::Over 50 is more than a few(considering their were only 2 opposing before). Besides I only said they were potential meat puppets. I for instance don't think Blaxthos, SemDem, and the two arguing beneath us are puppets. But if you think there is some diversity of opinion in that massive pile-on that shows that some of them were not puppets then by all means bring up their comments and let's discuss them.] (]) 03:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::The number doesn't say anything. After the story at DKos, it's only natural that many very real editors weighed in, and many of those may be only part time editors without much experience. Where is your evidence showing these are all new members, joining just for the purpose of influencing this discussion? Imho such baseless accusations are not helpful, and you should show much more restraint. Rememeber WP:Byte and such. If you have any suspicions, don't be lazy, check when those people joined, and bring "offenders" to the attention of the ARC.] (]) 09:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::I have never state that anyone specifically was a meatpuppet. I said to base the arguments made on their merit not by their plurality, and FYI:
			::::: "of the 61 include votes, 26 are from SPAs, 15 are from editors who have not edited in at least 3 weeks prior to this discussion, and a number have no other edits to this page."
			:::::Your attempts to distract away from my arguments of UNDUE weight by making up this whole "Wikiposter says everyone is a meatpuppet so lets disregard everything he says" argument is annoying and doesn't help. I have never called anybody specifically a meat puppet or suggested the "whole opposition" are either. If you have an argument to make then make it, but if you want to argue that the meatpuppet pile on means the info should be included despite significant undue weight objections then I redirect you to the quote I made at the top.] (]) 21:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::I respectfully object to the aspersion that I am a meatpuppet. (1) This issue was brought to my attention via the DailyKos posting. (2) I have over 4,000 edits since 2005. (3) Casting this unsubstantiated meatpuppet aspersion is akin to asking "When did you stop beating your wife?" (4) Comments in the original DailyKos posting have pointed out the importance of adhering to wikipedia policies, as well as not engaging in destructive activity (doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but one CAN be a responsible Kossack as well as a responsible wikipedia editor). I posit that the claim of rampant meatpuppetry absent evidence is a blatant smoke screen to derail the discussion. This is a discussion, not a witch hunt. I am appalled at this tactic. --] (]) 12:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	::3a Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information.
			::::Nobody's called you a meat puppet.
			#Nobody has questioned your impartiality(although mine has been repeatedly by you and others)
			#Edits won't give your arguments more weight
			#To make yourself look smart stop copying the examples given at the ]s page. I see that exact example given time and time again and consistently incorrectly(as you have now](''that'' being a massive influx of new users, SPAs, inactive editors, and the daily kos post.) I'm starting a list now of every time I have heard someone incorrectly call something a loaded question and used "When did you stop beating your wife?" as their example.
			#The original comment told editors to come flood here in an effort to stop "paid Fox shills". "Kossack" is that slang term for DailyKos members?(Nobody has said they're unreliable). I would agree that "the claim of rampant meatpuppetry absent evidence is a blatant smoke screen to derail the discussion", but would disagree that this is "absent of evidence", you're not making yourself look more credible. "''This is a discussion, not a witch hunt.''": I made an arbitrary break, informed the meatpuppets that their numbers would not sway the discussion, and told people to "Please continue the debate." which you and these other two newcomers to the argument are attempting to derail with a witch hunt to portray me as a Macarthy. Not one argument has been made against someoneelses' argument that their argument doesn't count because they are a meat puppet. If you want to contribute to the discussion, then make an argument for your side, and listen to the arguments of the other side.] (]) 21:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::WHO are you to give orders to other editors? You make accusations here about meatpuppetry, but don't come up with ANY evidence! And once more as a reminder, the problem with your accusation iswn't hard to understand. Meaptpuppetry means, NEW editors join in a discussion because of an out-of-wiki call. WHERE are those NEW editors here? Lots of established editors instead, many of them joined before you did! Your efforts to make it look as if their opinions don't count are outrageous. Either cxome up with EVIDENCE for meatpuppetry, or drop that point alltogether. Once again, if an old time editor reads a blog about a wiki issue anywhere, and decides to weigh in, that's NOT meatpuppetry!] (]) 08:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
	::So, we should probably pick one of them. ] (]) 05:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)		:The Misplaced Pages process on this issue will continue despite this derailed RfC...and another section is easily established. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. ] (]) 00:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Kk, let's hope not.] (]) 00:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Include''' On the subject of whether this belongs on the Fox News Controversies page or not: With major news outlets clearly covering this controversy as being about Fox News, I think that by definition means that this is an appropriate Misplaced Pages page for it to be on. While major news outlets may get their facts wrong on occasion, they *are* part of the makings of a public controversy, so when so many of them cover this as a Fox News related controversy, it's fairly close to a tautology that that is a Fox News related controversy. This seems so blindingly obvious, IMO, that I find it hard to take as credible any other content from commenters who claim that it does not belong on this page; making such claim marks the commenter, it seems to me, as someone who came here specifically to "vote" in defense of Fox News and not think about the merits. I can't see any other explanation for, effectively, arguing the equivalent of up is down. ] (]) 02:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::I agree/disagree partially. The "poodle" image is not required, you don't need it to understand the full story…
			::Note, First edit in 3 weeks, fourth in 3 months. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:"so when so many of them cover this as a Fox News related controversy"
			People have not covered it that way. They have simply covered that the DNC has criticized Fox for this without anybody else of significance(you know, someone other than MediaMatters) weighing in(if there are others then I apologize, but so far I have only seen the DNC). I don't think the criticism by a sole group who is heavily politically biased against Fox is enough to be notable. As for your ringing endorsement of Assume Good Faith, I'll just ignore that.] (]) 02:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Include'''. Arzel endlessly reiterates that this controversy is about News Corp., not Fox News. What matters here is that News Corp. controls Fox News and can influence Fox's coverage. This donation is therefore quite relevant to the main controversy concerning Fox, namely the widespread charge of bias (although the charge is so widespread and so clearly true that it's borderline inaccurate even to call it a controversy). Incidentally, I've changed the heading of this thread by inserting the word "alleged" per ] ("'''Keep headings neutral''': A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it."). ]<small>&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</small> 02:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::However, I feel that the "Redicliffe" and "Steinburg" images should stay, one would look strange in the article (why would we have one but not the other?), and I think that both images will satisfy 3a, as "Multiple items of non-free content are not used '''''if''''' '''''one item can convey equivalent significant information.'''''" <small>'''''Formerly Codename Colorado'''''</small> | <span style="color:#008800">The</span> <span style="color:#004400">Earwig</span> <span style="font-family:Verdana"><sup>(] | ] | ])</sup></span> 19:39, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
			::GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Democratic Govenors, and a lesser amount to Republicans. GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars more to Democrats than Republicans. NC has historically given more to Democrats than Republicans. Now NC has given a larger amount to Republicans and it is a huge controversy for FNC? Sorry, I don't buy it. Most of the comments above has been worded to suggest that FNC donated money or that FNC did not report the event. Neither is true, thus my "endlessly" reiterating is correct. It is nice to see other regular editors here supporting this bastardization of WP policies though. It is also a nice afirmation of the exceedingly large general left bias on WP. Does it even bother you that the general RfC process has been hijacked? Or do you simply agree with it because it supports your general belief? ] (]) 04:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Exclude''': This incident was never reported by itself as a controversy but always cradled within the over-the-top criticism by the Democratic National Convention who made it a public spectacle with their leader's show pony demand for Fox to now have a disclaimer on their shows of conservative bias. If tomorrow they demand Fox has a disclaimer warning for Cabbage Bias because it turns out News Corps has a huge stake in cabbage, that will get a lot of coverage, but would belong in DNC's article. The fact that News Corps made this donation is irrelevant, and would belong in an article about businesses afraid of Obama's anti-corporation policies, not on their article. One political group attacking Fox for the camera's is hardly relevant and is a case of ], especially during a slow season in news reporting where everything is reported now matter how shallow. This is just one in a long line of manufactured, find a complaint someone or group has levied against Fox and then make a section for it in their article. If this is still being talked about in 6 months then include it then.] (]) 03:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC) ('''Note''' - this is the second !vote from this editor)
	==FOX News and the Church==
			:Is it really fair to vote twice?] (])
	Amongst all the criticisms I have seen on FOX News, one that struck me the most was the claims that FOX was ''too pro-life'' and ''too Catholic''. While it does seem that FOX News might be susceptible to a certain kind of social conservatism, in my view this is only because other news outlets like MSNBC and the New York Times are commonly alleged to be anticlerical and/or anti-Catholic. ] (]) 16:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
			:EVEN if the controversy is manufactored, which is almost impossible for you to judge, the fact that so many prominent voices weighed in, and the huge reporting in the media makes this an issue that should be mentioned here.] (]) 10:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I agree with Gray62. The issue is notability. Wikiposter0123 is implicitly conceding notability but arguing that this ''shouldn't'' be notable because it's "manufactured". The fact is that prominent politicians and national party committees all have some power to influence the agenda; they harp on things that they hope will become notable, and sometimes they succeed. ]<small>&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</small> 11:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	=="Firing" of Roger Friedman==
			:::"''so many prominent voices weighed in''"
	A recent development, Foxnews entertainment columnist Roger Friedman may be fired for writing an article which points out the ease of watching pirated movies on the internet. (one of many sources: http://www.variety.com/VR1118002128.html) The content of Friedman's article, now excised from Foxnews, is as follows:
			:::That's my problem, the fact that only the DNC has weighed in with people reporting the DNC's criticism. No other prominent voices have made this criticism(at least that I have heard of)
	::Yes, I've seen "X Men Origins: Wolverine." It wasn't at a screening, either. I found a work in progress print of it, 95 percent completed, on the internet last night. Let's hope by now it's gone.
			:::"''Wikiposter0123 is implicitly conceding notability''"
			:::Lindsey Lohan got criticized for having Fuck You written on her middle finger nail at her trial, this was even more heavily broadcasted, that doesn't make it notable, that and this criticism are likely to be forgotten in 6 months not making them notable.] (]) 19:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Include''', this seems relevant to the article but maybe put it within it's own section on the page. I am not a meat puppet.--] (]) 05:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::But the cat is out of the bag, as they say, and the genie is out of the bottle. There's no turning back. But no, I will not tell you the big twist/surprise toward the end. Not now, a whole month away from release. That wouldn't be nice.
			*'''Comment''' I've never read the Daily Kos in my life. Given that the international press have made the link makes it totally relevant. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 07:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*Strong '''Include'''! The donation issue should be reported in legth at the News Corp story, sure, BUT the reaction by Fox News, and especially the criticism about their reporting, and the missing disclaimer, belongs HERE.] (]) 09:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Note, first edit in 3 months. ] (]) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Where does this arbitrary break come from? I don't know this from RfA and such. Doesn't this screw the count up a bit? ] (]) 09:53, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::This RfA is corrupted by the seemingly endless parade of Daily Kos editors, and a HUGE ] effort. I suspect fewer than 4 or 5 people additional people would have come here to comment if not for the Daily Kos based of previous history involving these types of disputes and various pages. Also it is not a vote. ] (]) 13:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::So, what? If the media reports about a Misplaced Pages issue, more part time editors log in to see what's going on. Only natural. This doesn't invaluate their opinions. And this is not a vote, but a show of a strong consensus, with only few opposing voices, to INCLUDE!] (]) 16:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Ugh, so many people who do not know what is going on. The "media" did not comment on this. SemDem went to the Daily Kos and posted a blog telling people to come here and vote for it's inclusion, after that we had an influx of 50 people come here, post nearly identical posts all vying for inclusion. ] is a violation of policy.] (]) 19:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Exclude - Reiteration of previous Comment''' - Simple, this is '''not''' News Corp. It has recieved little attention outside the partisan bickering from the left. It has recieved less attention than many of the other supposed controversies of FNC. The biggest reason why this exploded was because of a false report that FNC would not report on it, when in fact they were one of the first. Similar media companies have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to Democrats, and indeed, NewsCorp had donated more to Democrats than Republicans prior to this, yet those donations don't seem to be controversial. The donation is already included within the NewsCorp article. I find it absurd for the many meatpuppets to come here and say that this is the most controversial thing that FNC has ever done, when they had '''NOTHING''' to do with it. ] (]) 13:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC) ('''Note''' - this is the second !vote from this editor)
	::Right now, my "cousins" at 20th Century Fox are probably having apoplexy. I doubt anyone else has seen this film. But everyone can relax. I am, in fact, amazed about how great "Wolverine" turned out. It exceeds expectations at every turn. I was completely riveted to my desk chair in front of my computer.
			*:#What policy supports your belief that we evaluate source material based on your personal analysis ("partisan bickering from the left")?
			*:#Why do you continue to try and equate donations by '''employees''' and donations by a '''corporation'''? Do you not understand the difference between the two, conceptually and legally?
			*:#What sources (of the ones proposed above) do you believe are focusing on "a false report that FNC would not report on it"?
			*:#What policy do you think states that ] (as in, your statement "''the biggest reason '''why''' this exploded...''") is at all relevant to evaluating sources?
			*:#Why are you !voting twice?
			*:Thanks. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 16:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*::#]
			*::#Leagally they are no different.
			*::#I never said that. Many of the Daily Kos meatpuppets are making that claim because the Daily Kos post made that claim, I was simply trying to correct the miss-statement that they keep repeating. Makes it quite easy to spot the meatpuppets by the way. Note the obvious DK angle below.
			*::#Obvious, the issue here exploded because for some reason the Daily Kos people thought that FNC was the company that made the donation and that FNC isn't reporting on it. The situation here exploded because of that.
			*::#Not a second vote, it appeared that we were starting over because of all the canvassing meatpuppetry.] (]) 00:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			*:"Little attention"? Quite to the contrary, there are countless media reports, among them stories in the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Politico, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, you name it. ONLY Murdoch companies barely mention it! And it's obvious that this is rele3vant as a Fox News controversy. The Democratic Governor's Association directly addressed Roger Ailes with their demand that their shozuld be a disclaimer in Fox' reporting from now on! Sry, but your arguments don't hold water. ] (]) 16:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:First of all, the article doesn't invite or direct anyone to edit anything. It only brought this discussion to the attention of editors, many of them long-time established wiki editors. Considering that Fox News has compensated personnel to scrub their own entries, your outrage is misplaced. Further, I think it is simply offensive and counter-productive to attack every opposing viewpoint as a "meat puppet" simply because the majority opposes the suppression of information. This has received attention on every major media outlet, let alone Fox News, which makes it a controversy in and of itself. Yes, others have donated...but this was an historic donation by a media organization and the single largest contribution from a private company to the RGA. The fact that Fox News won't put a disclaimer up when they cover the races and refuse to offer airtime to any Democratic gubernatorial opponent at the very least makes this issue "controversial" for Fox News.] (]) 16:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Include''' - Goes to demonstrate conservative ] in ]. Certainly deserves to be in ] if not in ] itself. Note, I was not ] and am not a ]. Someone should go through and tabulate how many editors responding to this RfC had over 50 edits. ] (]) 16:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Weak include''' The standard that should be applied, I think, is whether the press has covered this as a significant controversy. Misplaced Pages can not be put in a position of judging the validity of the concern (except insofar as the independently reported facts may be relevant), but merely reporting on the existence of the controversy. How the donation is being covered in the news is a matter of research, however we can all agree, I should hope that many press outlets have covered the Democratic Party's protestations, which may be enough to warrant inclusion as such. If evidence in reliable sources can be found that the controversy is being opposed by folks other than just the Democratic party and it's affiliated politicians, this should be mentioned too. --] (]) 17:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::I don't know what the really big headline is here: the fact that "Wolverine" is so good, or that I also found the current top 10 movies in theaters, as well as a turgid domestic drama called "Fireflies in the Garden" with Ryan Reynolds and Julia Roberts -- the latter in a minor role while her husband, Danny Moder, is credited as director of photography.
			*'''] ''
	::'''I did find the whole top 10, plus TV shows, commercials, videos, everything, all streaming away. It took really less than seconds to start playing it all right onto my computer. I could have downloaded all of it but really, who has the time or the room? Later tonight I may finally catch up with Paul Rudd in "I Love You, Man." It's so much easier than going out in the rain!'''
			''News reports. Misplaced Pages considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion.''<br>
			This criticism got less coverage than criticism of Lindsay Lohan having "Fuck you" written on her middle finger nail at her trial. Neither has lasting appeal, if it did then more notable people would've criticized Fox for this '''other''' than the DNC. If you can find significant organizations(not MediaMatters) or individuals(not affiliated with DNC) that have criticized them for this, maybe a nonpartisan business ethics group or media ethics group, or if this is continued to be talked about six months from now then it should be included. Until then addition of this would just be a lot more ] in the already incredibly inappropriate criticism articles.] (]) 19:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::'''Comment''' Thanks for the reminder of guidelines. I think we agree that something appearing as a flash in a pan, or ephemeral coverage, have no place in Misplaced Pages. However this is something which has been discussed pretty widely, and is something which people in 10 years would likely be interested in, I should think. ] would indeed exclude a tidbit of celebrity apparel, even though it receives some coverage in the news. However there's no question in my mind that this donation has surpassed that mark. I am uncomfortable with your suggestion that DNC criticism should not be included simply on that basis. If it is a case of a partisan political attack, it should be included and described as such. It should not be our position to decided whether this is Watergate or Swiftboating; we should merely report the notable criticism and the relevant (and reliably sourced) facts related to it. --] (]) 20:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Criticism by one partisan source does not qualify as a controversy. If this was a major thing then other news organizations would have come out and condemned Fox News. A temporary flash of coverage does not equal notability, and your presumption that this will be talked about 10 years from now is a violation of ]. Unless the significance is completely obvious like China attacking the U.S., items under disputed notability should wait until they have been further shown to be notable. That will be seen if this is continued to be brought up and regularly addressed, and not just being the 15 minutes of fame produced by the DNC showboating for the press.] (]) 20:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Check those policies and guidelines again: ] is not applicable here. While you review that, check over ] too: the likely future recollection of an event is very much part of determining notability. The notability of this event is firmly established; I am frankly puzzled that you bring it up. There is no question that at the very least the DNC has made an accusation which has received significant levels of independent coverage from national and international media. This is not a grey area; this is clear cut. --] (]) 20:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:"''This may include effects on the views and behaviors of society and legislation. For example, the Murder of Adam Walsh ultimately led to the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act, among other notable subjects.''"
			:What's happened here is that you want to take the Murder of Adam Walsh(News Corp donation) and mention in it the criticism of pedophilia(Criticism of Fox News) article '''before''' the passage of the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act(future criticism of News Corp donation).
			:"''It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable."''
			:In this case no other group has come out to criticize the News Corps donation. Only the DNC. We will have to wait and see if others pick up on it or if it becomes a popular talking point, for instance, in the upcoming elections.
			:"''Reporting with little thematic connection or contextual information, or lacking insight or critique, is often considered to be routine reporting.''"
			:No real insight or critique in these reports.
			:"''. Events that are only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion, are likely not suitable for an encyclopedia article. ''"
			:The list of reasons goes on
			:"''Even in respected media, a 24-hour news cycle and other pressures inherent in the journalism industry can lead to infotainment and churnalism without proper fact checking, and they may engage in frivolous "]" reporting. Some editors may take into account perceived media bias, such as Missing white woman syndrome, when assessing notability.''"
			:Bias of those reporting against their main competitor, plus it is the summer, real news stories are down and sensationalist comments like those asking for a disclaimer are reported more often.
			:Try going to Wikinews.] (]) 21:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::But back to "Wolverine": this is the prequel to the first "X Men" movie. Directed by Gavin Hood, the film is as cutting edge as it is old fashioned. This may be the big blockbuster film of 2009, and one we really need right now. It's miles easier to understand than "The Dark Knight," and tremendously more emotional. Hood simply did an excellent job bringing Wolverine's early life to the screen.
			::I appreciate your efforts to follow policy and guidelines, however this is clearly a matter which has reached national and international attention. To suggest that something which has received substantive coverage on nearly all national news outlets (save Fox), and substantial coverage in the international English language press is not notable would be to shave this encyclopedia to a mere smattering of articles. The only question in my mind is how to characterize the controversy, not whether it exists or has achieved a level of notability sufficient for inclusion. --] (]) 22:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Hugh Jackman is Wolverine, of course, and he is more a movie star in this movie than ever before. It doesn't hurt that he's spent every waking minute in the gym. Hood doesn't hide that. Jackman fans will get their fill of their hero. He's joined by a phenomenal cast, too â" Liev Schreiber as his evil but equally clawed brother, Victor, aka Sabretooth; Ryan Reynolds (he gets a lot of work, that's for sure) as Deadpool; Dominic Monagan as Beak; Kevin Durand as the Blob; and the sensational sort of Han Solo-ish Taylor Kitsch as Gambit. There's also sultry Lynn Collins as Wolverine's love interest, and Danny Huston as the villainous Colonel Stryker.
			:::"''To suggest that something which has received substantive coverage on nearly all national news outlets (save Fox), and substantial coverage in the international English language press is not notable would be to shave this encyclopedia to a mere smattering of articles.''"
			First off, Fox did cover it, they were the first people to report on the News Corps donation leading me to believe that perhaps you have not read through the whole discussion. Secondly, I am not proclaiming that wide press coverage alone is not enough to merit inclusion I'm citing ]. A few points made:
			*"Anticipation of notability may be mistaken. Many events portrayed by the media as major on the day they occur quickly become only a footnote. "
			*"The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance. Although notability is not temporary, meaning that coverage does not need to be ongoing for notability to be established, a burst or spike of news reports does not automatically make an incident notable. "
			*"The general guideline is that coverage must be significant and not in passing. In-depth coverage includes analysis that puts events into context, such as is often found in books, feature length articles in major news magazines (like Time, Newsweek, or The Economist), and TV news specialty shows (such as 60 Minutes or CNN Presents in the US, or Newsnight in the UK). Reporting with little thematic connection or contextual information, or lacking insight or critique, is often considered to be routine reporting. "
			Meh, there's more, but you can go there and read it if you want. Misplaced Pages is loaded with unnecessary information because of recentism and because people think everything that gets a spark of coverage is notable. They're not, we shouldn't even have criticism articles.] (]) 22:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	::I do think the film works so beautifully because the screenplay is so streamlined. David Benioff (whose real name, I read, is David Friedman -- he's married to Amanda Peet) carefully delineated these characters and did a smashing job. I had less trouble following this story than the one in "Fireflies in the Garden." He's made "Wolverine" just the right kind of summer entertainment -- a thrill ride with lots of emotional investment and a hero simply bigger than life. That's all you can ask for.
			'''FYI, JamesMLane of the 61 include votes, 26 are from SPAs, 15 are from editors who have not edited in at least 3 weeks prior to this discussion, and a number have no other edits to this page.''' Meatpuppetry at its finest, plain and simple. ] (]) 20:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Now, I did see "Wolverine" on a large, wide computer screen, and not in a movie theater, but it could not have played better. Still, this was a workprint and there were about a dozen things not finished. A couple of times it was possible to see the harnesses on the actors. It didn't take away from the film at all. But obviously someone who had access to a print uploaded the film onto this website. This begs several questions about security. Time to round up the usual suspects!
			:Soxwon, I quoted the actual Misplaced Pages guideline. It reads, "'''Keep headings neutral''': A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it." You're applying a revised version: "A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it, unless Soxwon thinks that one specific view is clearly correct, in which case the heading may convey that view." I'd be grateful if you could refer me to the discussion in which there was consensus for that revision of the guideline. In the meantime, I'm restoring the heading to some semblance of neutrality. (Note that I'm ''not'' changing it to "Arbitrary break so right-wing POV pushers can continue their ideological crusade to suppress inconvenient facts". I mention that possibility only in the hope that it will help you understand why the Misplaced Pages community has endorsed neutral headings as the best way to go.) ]<small>&nbsp;]&nbsp;]</small> 20:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	This news item and the controversy around it has brought fresh attention to Friedman, who's wikipedia page was recently deleted for lack of notability. So the question is, where does this information and the debate around it belong within wikipedia?] (]) 07:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
			::To prevent any further distraction over arguing about this and return to discussion regarding inclusion I have changed the title to "Arbitrary break" with quotation marks to note the irony that the break clearly isn't arbitrary, but specifically placed to come after the "alleged" meatpuppet pile-on.] (]) 21:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::'''Let's all write in bold! Soxwon, is it your contention that consensus is actually to exclude this information? Also, is that with or without counting the fact that both Wikiposter and Arzel !voted twice?'''' //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	:I have no idea how this is anyhow related to the Fox News Channel. Although Friedman may have contributed on the network, this has absolutely nothing to do with his work for FNC. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Of note heres some more international coverage from the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11014504 and South China Morning Post (Hong Kong) - http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=1d1e672ad958a210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&ss=Asia+%26+World&s=News. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 21:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::'''<strike>We are restarting the voting process anew down here</strike> We just assumed the voting process had started over, thus the double vote. Because votes don't actually matter these are really more just statements of our side. Nobody has indicated that there is consensus to either include or exclude, and by the way, Soxwon was not counting the votes, he was mentioning the numbers of likely meat puppets, so why you took that as a count of votes it seems to me is because you are perhaps a little to ].'''
	==Lead semtence and photo caption==
			:::::Now can we please stop talking in bold?] (]) 21:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	I have changed the lead sentence to Some so as not to imply all critics have made these accusations. I also removed the caption per the old consensus that was made. Anyways, --] ] 21:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}
			Given multiple reliable sources have commented on this and mentioned Fox News it seems worthy of at least a sentence without being ]. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 22:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Let's wait until the meatpuppets have abandoned their crusade before we work on wording a statement according to wikipedia policy. ] (]) 22:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::NICE...everyone who disagrees with you will be dismissed as a meatpuppet. That is REAL good to know. All I need to do if there is a negative post on Obama, no matter how factual (such as he was born in Hawaii), is invite people to join the discussion on RedState. Then I can get it get it taken out!] (]) 22:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Let me repeat my statement with relevant portions highlighted: Let's wait until the meatpuppets have abandoned their crusade '''before we work on wording a statement according to wikipedia policy.''' If you had read my above !vote, you would notice I have changed my vote to "include." However, I'm more than a little leery of trying to put together a statement that could be contentious with people who don't understand basic policy (wikipedia is not a vote, we go by what sources say, Meatpuppetry etc.) lurking and trying to "fix" it as we work on it. Your opinions are more than welcome, but it would be more beneficial if the actual wording came from those who have experience and have a more thorough knowledge of policy. (And I'm sorry if I come across as elitist, but honestly, looking back at my first edits I find myself constantly cringing) ] (]) 23:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			"''Given multiple reliable sources have commented on this and mentioned Fox News it seems worthy of at least a sentence without being WP:UNDUE.''"
	== Tea Party Protests ==
			Multiple sources have reported the DNC's commentary on this without endorsement or analysis of it. Given that only one source has actually criticized Fox for this, and since that source is the DNC, that is undue weight.
			"''NICE...everyone who disagrees with you will be dismissed as a meatpuppet. That is REAL good to know.''"
			Nice, every argument against you will be strawmanned into being an argument that your a meat puppet and then argued against from that position without actually arguing against the actual arguments which have little to nothing to do with claiming others are meat puppets.(with out the obvious knowledge that of the 50+ pile-on some are definitely meat puppets).] (]) 23:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Despite Wikiposter0123's , we are not "restarting the vote" (as if it's a "vote"). I have . With regards to all the claims of "meatpuppetry":
	This entire section is based off one source from a week before the protests, not to mention that that one source is MMfA which is biased against FNC. It should be focused and not reliant on one biased source. FNC's point of view should also be included. ] (]) 01:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
			::::#'']'' - There is no way to know if and/or how many of the respondents commented based <u>solely</u> due to an offsite article. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that someone from the ''other'' side made the post in the hopes of creating a chance to discredit an RFC that wasn't going to go his way. In the end, '''it does not matter anyway'''.
			::::#Only by ] can one use the "meatpuppet" claim in this context. ] intends to stop people from going to their friends and having them commit a proxy vote with no involvement -- going to school and asking your best friend to go !vote on something. In this case, an offsite post simply pointed out the RFC and did not include any sort of instructions of what to say or how to participate. There's a big difference between "''hey, do this''" and "''hey, look at this''".
			::::#The only way the cries of meatpuppetry could possibly be relevant is if this was strictly a vote count. RFCs are not evaluated based on the number of votes, but rather by the quality of the discussion. ] and other polices state "''this is '''not''' a ''majority vote'', but instead a ''discussion'' among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and ] is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, '''''not''''' by counting votes''.
			:::://] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 23:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Strong exclude''' - This issue is about News Corp not Fox News Channel. The above attempt to rig this RFC is shocking and a blatant violation of WP policies. I fear including this issue in the article now will simply encourage this sort of disgraceful behaviour in the future. It should be left off. ] (]) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC) ('''Note''' - this is the second !vote from this editor)
	:That they even ''have'' a point of view indicates bias, but in any case Arzel is correct; if FNC has put forth an opinion it should certainly be included. However, don't be fooled -- MMFA qualifies as a ] (as noted many times past, ] applies to Misplaced Pages, not sources), and there are certainly other sources we could use. I agree -- let's diversify the sources and ensure ] presentation. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 09:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
			*'''Include''' - The perceived problem with the donation is precisely over the connection with FOX News et al. This is made abundantly clear in news reports on the matter. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]]]</i> 16:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Memos? Ridiculous ==
			:The major problem is that of weight.] (]) 18:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Include''' - DNC and News Corp. brought Fox News into this; the DNC by questioning Fox's objectivity and News Corp. by stating their donation has no bearing on their journalist. Clearly there's a conflict. There are mainstream sources to support that, and it's worth, at least, a sentence. ] (]) 18:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	The sources for this assertion are the outfoxed documentary, which has being thoroughly trashed for its inaccuracies/bias, the huffington post, which has, this year alone, posted at least 2 videos that were altered to make fox look bad, and Keith Olberman who is quoting the Huffington Post.
			:"Clearly there's a conflict", mainstream sources don't seem to support this, see:
			::'''Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP'''
			::
			::News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced," and '''Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going'''. But in a general sense, '''other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet''', so it's anbody's (sic) guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.'''
			::UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above '''I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox''', not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.
			::] (]) 18:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	Good grief. The references are ridiculous - even if you have the balls to reference the huffington post you don't go and reference Olberman who is quoting the Huffington Post as some sort of substantiation. ] (]) 01:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
			:::My assessment has nothing to do with MMfA or the incorrect comments from editors on this page. I was basing my assessment on the lead paragraph, and what the sources are saying. The lead states, ''"Fox News Channel has been the subject of many allegations concerning journalism ethics and standards."'' The most recent concern being from the DNC, questioning Fox's objectivity based on the donation of its parent company News Corp. When I said there's a conflict, I meant this clearly falls within what the article is about, and the sources support its inclusion. Sorry for not making that clear in my original post. ] (]) 20:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	== WOW! ==
			::::My argument however isn't that this isn't the appropriate topic. This definitely is a criticism of Fox News, it however isn't a very significant one with only two members of the DNC criticizing them for it. A criticism is only significant if it gets support from a significant number of people, or begins to become a common talking point against Fox. That is why it isn't encyclopedia worthy. Sorry for misinterpreting what you meant by "the conflict".] (]) 21:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	I can't believe there is an entire page dedicated to Fox News Channel controversies. Sounds like to me that Fox needs to be taken off the air. ] (]) 19:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Wikiposter, can you please point us to the policy you believe supports your definition of "significant"? What policy supports your contention that "criticism is only significant if it gets support from a significant number of people"? It is my understanding that policy bases significance on the number of ''reliable sources'' that publish the issue (not how many people have voiced the criticism). Please explain. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			"''It is my understanding that policy bases significance on the number of ''reliable sources'' that publish the issue''"
			Funny, so Lady Gaga is the most significant thing in the universe.
			It is my understanding of policy that significance is determined by having an lasting effect on something, continued coverage, or is significantly held to be significant.
			It seems your understanding of policy believes a short flash of news coverage by a wide range of sources proves significance, ].] (]) 00:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Include'''. That the controversy has been presented, not as a corporate donation to the RGA by NewsCorp, but as evidence of Fox News' conservative bias, means that it should be mentioned on the Fox News page. The controversy need not be of FN's making for it to be an FN controversy. There are many, many reliable sources that say things to the effect of "Fox News' parent company makes $1M donation to RGA", etc. The controversy has been linked to Fox News not by us, but by those reliable sources. It is not POV-pushing to include mention of such, but rather it would be whitewashing to exclude it. As long as we stick to a neutral description of the controversy, I can see no valid rational to exclude. ] (]) 05:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Airtight logic there. ] (]) 15:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''', this discussion has for the large part transferred to the bottom of the page in a different sub section entitled continued discussion, please go there if you are looking for the continued arguments after this concerning the News Corp donation.] (]) 21:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Tell me you're being sarcastic. Do it. ] (]) 21:11, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
			::'''Include'''' A significant point of view -- one that is both noteworthy enough to be reported, and is appropriately related to this controversies article -- is that Fox News holds a conservative bias in both its news coverage and political commentary, while maintaining that it is fair and balanced (holding no bias to any political party). If anyone will try to contest that this point of view exists, and is ], I will be happy to provide many sources other than HP and Media Matters. While the donation is from News Corp, it's significance (and the only reason it received any attention) is because News Corp owns Fox News. The name on the check doesn't mean a thing -- only how the donation has become noteworthy. — <small><span style="border:1px solid #333333;padding:1px;"><b>]</b> : ]</span></small> 04:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::Alright - I was! ] (]) 23:04, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
			=== Keep Article Locked And Prevent Removal Of Cited Sources ===
	== Talking points from Bush White House should be removed... ==
			The page was finally locked just a few moments ago because of constant changes but I fear that people would make an account just to try and remove the most "controversial" element of this article. Therefore I'm suggesting that a bot or something be assigned to revert any "blanking" of relevant texts that are cited by a legitimate source. At least until the heat cools down. --] (]) 19:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	There was never any evidence of this presented, ever. A ranting and raving from a fired Bush Administration employee should not hold water without evidence. Controversies should only be put here if they provide at least some evidence for the claim.] (]) 07:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
			:Hey, how about making an account yourself? ] (]) 09:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			=== People being directed to "edit" this article ===
	:Sorry, that's not how Misplaced Pages works. Please see ] and ]. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 14:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
			It should be noted and taken into account that the website "Daily Kos" is sending it's visitors to this article - just in case anyone is curious about the sudden, massive influx of would be "editors":
	:Wait, so I can post anything I want without adhering to evidence or credibility? So, I could say: FNC cures cancer without evidence and just a link to a "reputable" source and I could put it here? Because, that's basically what you're saying. Considering most of the "facts" in McCellan's book have been disproven time and again, why quote him? ] (]) 17:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
			http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/21/895233/-UPDATED:-Fox-News-Scrubbing-Misplaced Pages-Entry-on-$1-Mil.-Donation- <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::Under your rules, McCellan's book is a questionable source. ] (]) 17:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
			:Graci. ]ing anyone?
	== Misrepresentation of party affiliations ==
			<blockquote>
			For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity.
			</blockquote>
			:And now I'm hungry.] (]) 23:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Nowhere in your link are people being directed to "edit" this article. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 07:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Would it be of importance to add a section to this article regarding the pattern of labeling Republican politicians who are the focus of negative news as being members of the Democratic Party?
			:::They're being directed to support this change on the talk page, That's called ]ing.
			:::Agree. The DKos blog linked above simply invites people to join the discussion on this talk page. It does not tell people to make edits or support one side. How is that ]? In addition, I (and other editors, I'm sure) resent being labeled a meatpuppet simply because we have argued for inclusion in the ongoing RfC. Verges on Wikilawyering, really. On the flip side, I have seen several IPs and suspected SPAs in the RfC. Those may be properly labeled as meatpuppets, but not established editors like myself who have contributed to the discussion. Let's stop beating people with a Wiki policy stick simply because they don't agree with a specific position in the ongoing RfC. -] (]) 08:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	eg.<p>
			::::After it was found out the author of it changed it to "invite people to join the discussion". It seems you didn't read the original post which drew the people here..] (]) 20:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	<br>
	<br>
	<br>
	<br>
			::And what about WP:Goodfaith? Didn't you read the note at the start of this discussion? Accusing others to be meatpuppets, without any real evidence that they only joined for this discussion, ISN'T good faith! Be careful, it may be YOU who will have to answer to the arbitraitors, if you continue in this way! ] (]) 10:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	There are others out there, I was surprised to have not seen mention of this as of yet. ] (]) 01:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
			:::Ha, ha, ha. No real evidence of meat puppeting? Please tell another joke.] (]) 20:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:As long as you are quoting DKos...how about this article: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/14/212516/918
	:Check ]. It may warrant inclusion in the main article per ]. //] <small>( / ] )</small> 03:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
			:Calling for unpaid wikipedia editors in an open forum to contribute to the discussion..what a scandal. Fox News has compensated shills paid to scrub wikipedia from IP addresses at its headquarters...but that is okay.] (]) 23:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Who says there is a pattern? Left-wing sites? How about some MSM sources. This type of nit-picking is undue weight. ] (]) 04:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)		::Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper and we need to know the signifance of stories before including them. That may mean that Misplaced Pages may not be the best source for what happened in the last 24 hours. ] (]) 03:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::That $1 million donation happened yesterday? ] (]) 12:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::A donation of a cool one million dollar IS significant. And the significance also shows in the wide reporting about the issue. I don't see any valid reason not to include the strongly referenced fact in the article about Fox news controversies. To continuosly delete those edits is very close to vandalism, and imho admins should lock this article after including the edit. ] (]) 08:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:"Would be editor" is rich, coming from an unsigned (!) IP. You sure you are an editor at all? ] (]) 08:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::First of all, looking over the posts made by ] they appeared to be fair in context with NPOV. Statements of fact clearly supported in each case by the visual evidence. They did not contain commentary nor did they assign meaning to the incidents described. The original images were from a MSM source, that being Fox News. In both cases, he additionally provided the response from Newscorp.<p>From evaluating your short explanation it appears your better approach would be arguing against source reliability. Undue weight tends to be with the amount of space a minority viewpoint takes up on a single subject. While a section on whether aliens fly in round spaceships, or in triangular spaceships has little bearing on an article concerning the physics of space travel, it could consume a significant portion on an article about alien spaceship conspiracy theories. If this was posted to the main Fox News article, I could see your point and fully back your position. The article in question is concerning controversies regarding Fox News.<p>On the reliability front Misplaced Pages follows a rule with source reliability wherein the more exceptional the claim, the higher reliability the source needs to be. The simple claim in this context is that there is a pattern of public figures who are incorrectly labeled during the newscast. This could be due to political reasons, shoddy fact checking, a transposition of keys on a keyboard, or any number of things. The section that you blanked did not make a guess as to the reason, only that it happens. Not all sources require primary referenced research, but those that make a great claim such as assigning meaning to the actions of other require much more evidence. This section assigned no meaning. <p>I don't want to start an edit war here, but as I was working on the section when you blanked it, I will post my changes so that the Misplaced Pages community can further evaluate the appropriateness (or not) of the section in question. ] (]) 05:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
			::There's no need for personal level sniping, Gray62. I think it wise to have a heads up for any unusual amount of "incoming" regardless of the directing source. When someone posts a "go here and jump into the fray" link somewhere it's easy to note those using it via referrer logging. I would assume most people find orchestrated convergences to be counter-productive. I might also point out it's quite easy for a person to do what called an "IP lookup", it's a very simple matter to convert a numeric address to ISP/physical location. I imagine there is even an article here explaining how it's done. Failing that, a quick googling of the phrase "IP lookup" should be of assistance. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	The section was added as "Mislabeling Public Figures in News Captions". Some of the wording was toned down, each listed instance can be expanded as needed, but I for one am into "baby step" edits so that other editors can respond. Please respond prior to deleting the section. ] (]) 05:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
			:::Well, as a part time editor, who isn't here every day, I welcome it if reports in the media or blogs alert me about controversial issues going on here. And, excuse me pls, I don't do "personal level sniping", I'm simply pointing out that it's quite hypocritical to complain about "would be editors" when you yourself post as an IP, and don't even sign your stuff! And as for the "IP-Lookup" issue, well, I'm an established, even though occasional, editor here, and I have already been subject of a sockpuppet investigation once that proved I'm genuine and nobody's fool. Hmm, but how come you know so much about this, but post as an unsigned IP here? If there is reason to be suspicious about someone, why not about you? ] (]) 13:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	:You are implying that there is some notable aspect to these incidents and using screenshots of FNC as your reliable sources claim. Unfortunately, most of these instances were reported by questionable or non-reliable sources. Show me some MSM sources that actually point to these incidents as a criticism from a general form, and not just a couple of left-leaning sites. As it is you are giving undue weight to some fringe groups that feel there is some conspiricy that FNC is biased against Dems. If you really want to get into the field of miss-representation of political figures within MSM there are dozens of incidents of Democrats involved in controversy that are not even identified by political party by the various news entities like MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC. Seriously, these kinds of incidents are very petty and read like Original Research since you have yet to provide any MSM commentary that even makes this an issue. ] (]) 15:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
	::I understand that most criticism probably comes from partisan sites, but to include only MediaMatters, crooksandliars, huffingtonpost, ect in a section seems overly biased/undue weigh. I would preffer if this was to be included that it had been covered extensively by the main stream media, even if folks think they are biased to some degree. Was this a big deal according to NY Times, washington post, 4 major networks ect, ect?? Anyways, enjoy :) --] ] 16:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
	:: Honestly, MSM is not going to carry this because they will be accused of bias for carrying such a minor story, even though it is truthful. However, FoxNews mislabels enough disgraced Republicans that this cannot always be attributed to "honest mistakes". There is nothing wrong with using any of the aforementioned sources since the mislabeling is verifiable---NO ONE, including Fox, is disputing the facts. The article also stated that the critics were left-leaning, but Fox certainly did mislabel the politicians. PS--if Fox News can be used as a mainstream source, then HuffintonPost should be allowed as well. The current president addresses them in the press room as often as Bush did Fox.] (]) 21:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: The key phrase is "minor story". It is simply not noteworthy. It is also easy to understand that may be an honest mistake. Compare to for example. ] (]) 01:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: I added a source that showed evidence that Fox has mistakenly labeled Republicans (namely John McCain) as democrats (which was promptly removed as "unreliable" despite ample evidence ). It's clearly a simple mistake, but because the left gets upset it becomes news? This is simply not noteworthy, unless you feel all incidents are noteworthy, or you are willing to balance the issue with evidence of leftist hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways. ] (]) 21:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
	::: Have any news outlets other than the actual critics even commented on these issues? If not, I believe these events do not meet the requirements for a third party reliable source. ] (]) 21:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::The only problem I have with your edit is that it may be tinged slightly with synthesis. Both links do verify that McCain was labeled as such but I don't see any explanation of why like in your text. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
	::::: There are several issues here. First, there is no third party commentary on the complaints by liberal media outlets. Second, it shows there are examples of other copy edit errors that apparently are not controversial, or if they were, they do not pass the test of long term noteworthiness. The problem with this section, and the majority of this article, is that it pecks little issues, and collects them to make it out to be some massive conspiracy theory, when in fact, no event, in and of itself, is noteworthy. That is synergistic Original Research. If I had my way, I would scrap the entire section, but since I know that I will be blasted as being POV, all I can do is point out the hypocrisy of the situation and show that such mistakes are not uncommon, and have no real bearing on political leanings, other than in the minds of left wing opponents of Fox News. For example, the first reference is from the Huffington Post, a bias media outlet, but beyond that, it is actually a copy from Brad Blog a left wing blog (clearly not a reliable source, other than to state the fact that Fox did in fact make a mistake). But commenting on the mistake, and presenting it as a criticism makes Brad and his blog the primary source. This violates reliable sources and external links. In order to comply with Misplaced Pages standards, you need an external third party of some credibility (beyond a biased and parroting HuffPost) to show that the criticism is more than just a left wing blogger blathering about how horrible Fox News is. ] (]) 22:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
	] (]) 03:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)Four times with four disgraced GOP politicians is not coincidence. It is a pattern that deserves to be here for people to make their own determinations. Some people here have obvious ulterior motives and would like all criticism to go away.
			"complain about "would be editors" when you yourself post as an IP. If there is reason to be suspicious about someone, why not about you?"
	== Barack Obama critcism ==
			I believe if you check you will see I have made no "complaints", but have rather just noted the reality. You are more than welcome implementing whatever term with which may feel more comfortable with re: those with an axe to grind who are directed here. e.g "drive by editors", "one-off editors", 'axe grinding editors", "water carrying editors", etc. & ad infinitum. It's the same as a if a site with an axe to grind were sending it's visitors to the Albert Gore, Jr. entry discussion to rant and rage about allegations of prostitution. It's just common sense to take note when such things occur.
	How come there is no section about how Barack frequently criticizes the network? Hell I even found this on ]s page:
			I understand you may be extremely suspicious to near paranoiac due to not knowing how to convert a numerical IP to the verbose, more literal version. But you should realize that the admins at Misplaced Pages just have no such problem. While you are most welcome to indulge in fantasies of waging a mighty personal battle against Rupert Murdoch or whatever imagined bogeymen, I assure you the reality is just a wee bit different. However, if you have issues or suspect plots due any totally unrelated (to the real-world issues & questions people are discussing here) issues due some anger, frustration or whatever, please feel free to demand an in-depth "investigation" indeed, if it will calm your nerves.
			But the best advice, I would suggest, is in dropping the emotionalism and in learning to take am objective, a-emotive position - whether it be on the question here on on any other issues that may arise in Misplaced Pages. I wish you all the best, but I just have really no interest in cluttering discussions here with people's personal issues. Don't mean to be rude, just to the point. Good luck and goodbye. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			"The DKos blog linked above simply invites people to join the discussion on this talk page."
	'''In early summer 2008, a "tentative truce" was brokered during a secret meeting between ], Rupert Murdoch and ] (President of the ]) at the Waldorf-Astoria hotel in New York. Obama had initially resisted Murdoch's propositions, despite senior News Corp executives having recruited the ] to act as go-betweens. Obama resented Fox News's portrayal of him "as suspicious, foreign, fearsome - just short of a terrorist," while Ailes said "it might not have been this way if Obama had more willingly come on the air instead of so often giving Fox the back of his hand." A "tentative truce" was agreed upon; Obama would be portrayed more favourably, while Obama would be more willing to appear on ].''' ] (]) 01:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
			By way off addendum - it should be noted the particular "dairy" I cited and offered a linked to was *very* heavily re-edited after it was made mention of here. It suddenly went from "go here to get Fox News!" to "well, conservatives and liberals should discuss it". I posit such 180's should be viewed with a ("an"? whatever) very skeptical eye. If I saw the same type of shell-game switcharoo from some crank Freeper (Freerepublic.com user) it would be just as deceptive and odious. If anything, I believe a lesson to be learned here is "beware any sudden influx urging editing being applied so-and-so". Unfortunately, there is just so much talking points BS being pushed by the left and the right. Makes one almost yearn for "middle-ground talking points" - but that's a personal digression/indulgence. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 06:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:If anywhere, that would be germane on an article about ]. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
			:Another reading of the changing of the original diary (as one who is familiar with the DailyKos hive mind) is that responsible wikipedia editors who are ALSO kossacks contacted the diarist on the back channel and chided him for the tone of the diary, explaining wikipedia policy, etc. DailyKos diaries are often changed, not in order to hide something, but to more responsibly address an (initially) misaddressed contention. It WAS irresponsible to request kossacks to use wikipedia to "get Fox News," and the diarist was convinced to edit the diary to be more responsible, and respectful, of how wikipedia works. DailyKos is a dynamic blog site which engages in self-correction as new facts come to light - sort of like wikipedia, no? --] (]) 12:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Why was this removed? ==
			::no.] (]) 18:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Actually yes. DailyKos is a dynamic political blog, but a high visibility, high quality, and influential one. And it's framework is like a Wiki, so yes corrections can be made. DailyKos can't be used directly as a source, but it has great value as an ] with links to sources that can be used. — ] (]) 20:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:"Actually yes. Conservapedia is a dynamic political blog, but a high visibility, high quality, and influential one. And it's framework is like a Wiki, so yes corrections can be made. Conservapedia can't be used directly as a source, but it has great value as an ] with links to sources that can be used."] (]) 20:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	A December 2007 study/examination by ] of the ] media watchdog group, the ] found that Fox News's evaluations of all of the 2008 ] presidential candidates combined was 51% positive and 49% negative, while the network's evaluations of the ] presidential candidates 51% negative and 49% positive. The study, however, did find that Fox's coverage was less negative toward Republican candidates than the coverage of broadcast networks.<ref>http://www.cmpa.com/releases/07_12_21_Election_Study.pdf</ref> In addition, FAIR has noted that Lichter himself is a Fox News contributor. Also, on the January 10, 2008 edition of ''The O'Reilly Factor'', Lichter stated that he only examined the first half of the '']''.{{Fact|date=April 2007}}
			::Just for the record, I think your statement above is factually incorrect. Current Alexa traffic analysis (last 6 months) shows that DailyKos's traffic rank to be 1,189th in the US, Conservapedia's rank is 14,176th. Also, DK is linked to by 12,021 sites, while Conservapedia is linked to by 1,654 sites. --] (]) 13:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::And FreeRepublic is 1,128th in the US. How about we stick with sources that we can agree are neutral and reliable? ] (]) 17:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			===Request for evidence of DailyKos manipulation of article===
			Independent of this discussion, is there any evidence of manipulation or edit warring of the article itself by meatpuppets (i.e., the evil denizens of DailyKos)? It seems like the accusations of meatpuppetry (which I regard as a spurious smoke screen over the issue of the whether or not to include a million dollar contribution by Fox News to the GOP) are ignoring the fact that, maybe, these evil denizens of DailyKos aren't actually disrupting Misplaced Pages as alleged? Lots of accusations, a paucity of evidence. --] (]) 23:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	Why was the above section removed? This seems like a partisan removal.] (]) 02:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)		:Who cares. Your pursuit only creates more smoke than light. Let's get on with the discussion. ] (]) 00:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Strawman smoke screen. Nobody has made the claim of disruptive editing or edit warring by meatpuppets.
	:I put it back. It had been in there for some time and unless Blaxthos can provide some valid reason why CMPA is not a reliable source in lieu of the many biased liberal sources then there is no reason for removal. ] (]) 04:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
	Thank you.] (]) 05:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)		::Stupid section. Just get on with the discussion.] (]) 00:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::"Stupid"? What about your calls to keep this discussion civil? And it was YOU who started this meatpuppet nonsense. No evidence for this so far. Where are the NEW editors who allegedly joined only for the purpose of influencing the discussion? Most here have been longer at WP than you!] (]) 08:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			<blockquote>We gave up on the Fox News main page, and simply added a balanced blurb on the "Fox News Controversies" page, which even INCLUDED the official Fox News and News Corps defense of the donation. It was removed. The discussion page and the history page on the "Fox News Controversies" section is funny. First the argument was the controversy was "minor", then the argument was it wasn't covered by any other media. When a wikipedia editor listed EVERY media outlet that covered it, then the argument was it required "consensus" from everybody before it could be in the article...and the latest arguement? That NEWS CORPS is not really Fox News so it doesn't belong there. Yeah...even though the whole controversy is around FN bias, and how they fail to even address the issue, and the fact that they won't allow ANY Dem governor to come on their show and discuss the matter, etc. Right now, the scandal is scrubbed on Misplaced Pages. A REQUEST FOR COMMENTS forum has been called to resolve this matter in the talk section (bottom):http://en.wikipedia.org/... It's essentially two guys against Fox...so if you have an account on Misplaced Pages, please contribute and let your voice be heard! Misplaced Pages is always a top search result of just about any topic, so this does matter--Fox knows it.</blockquote> The talk went crazy after this was posted at the DK. ] ] (]) 00:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	::Way to ]... It's a very simple and very obvious COI -- Lichter is a contributor to Fox News, so his "study" can't be neutral or without a conflict of interest. Beyond that, the study is such a statistical outlier that its "conclusions" are suspect. And finally, within the study itself Lichter noted that criteria were inconsistently applied (half of some shows, all of others, etc etc). If this is the best study out there for the "Fox Is Not Biased" crowd, so be it, but that doesn't make it a sound study or reference... in what peer-reviewed journal was this "study" published? //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 10:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			=== Failed attempt at establishing facts + continued discussion concerning the News Corp donation(go to aptly named subsection to get there) ===
	:::I suppose we could show just how extremely liberally biased everyone else was during the 2008 election which could be used to show the same point. As to it's use in peer-reviewed journals, it falls into the same classification of the "studies" comming out of FAIR and MMfA, but with less bias. ] (]) 14:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			Because I see a lot of misconceptions going around by newcomers not familiar with the topic.
	::::What about the obvious conflict of interest? "Fox contributor releases a study that states Fox isn't biased" -- a little obvious, no ? //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 17:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
	::::: Clearly it passes the reliability and noteworthy. Come on, we have blog entries passing as reliable sources in this article. If you want to cut this, you should be ok cutting bradblog and HuffPo as biases as well. ] (]) 18:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			Currently nothing can be agreed upon.
	::::::This one is relatively simple guys. Keep the paragraph and add the objections and problems to the study in a subsequent paragraph. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			] (]) 20:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	Blax, you want the PRC study that showed FNC wasn't biased in the 2008 election but every other news channel was, especially MSNBC?] (]) 18:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
	:What I want is for Misplaced Pages to avoid using sources that are paid by the organization being studied -- that's a pretty bright line in any discipline, but most especially academic & research realms. Read this again: "Paid Fox contributor releases a study that states Fox isn't biased". //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 20:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)		:You got several things wrong, from the use of "meatpuppet" to the recitation of facts. I suggest that your self-anointed "education" of people "new to this page" is presumptuous and unnecessary, and certainly doesn't show that you're here in the spirit of ] (one of the five pillars). //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:So newspapers like the Guardian - based in the UK - are just copying the Democrats. Yup sounds totally believable. -- ] &lt;]&gt; 21:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Your lack of specifically mentioning anything wrong makes your argument sound so convincing. Eraserhead, anybody reading what I said can see that your post is so off topic that it borderlines trolling.
	::Just curious. Was Lichter on the Fox payroll while the study was being done? ] (]) 22:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			::If there is something wrong, then say what is wrong and why it is wrong, don't argue just because you think the facts are POV.] (]) 21:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::I think a group of people, paid or not, being asked off wiki to come join and support a cause is the very definition of meatpuppetry. However the goal is never to determine who is and is not a meatpuppet, it always should center on the arguments and discussion made, regardless of the source. Piling on support does little but frustrate people. In my experience, new WP users (being unfamiliar with the policy, guidelines, and goals of the project) are not likely to make particularly compelling arguments.
			:::I should also note, the use of paid editors by any organization is frowned upon (although the formal policy on this is unclear). Editors who are paid are encouraged to disclose their potential conflicts of interest, and those who attempt to subvert the integrity of the encyclopedia (paid or not) may be permanently blocked. Such editing can also be a source of embarrassment for the company hiring the individual as well, if editors try to circumvent ordinary process to accomplish their aims. However it is poor form to accuse new users of being either paid shills or meatpuppets without cause (beyond their simple advocacy of a particular point of view).
			:::I would contest your third point; you yourself have contested this by suggesting that extensive coverage was the result of media disapproval. This claim was repeated , for example. I would further suggest that you're list is grossly misleading, in that it suggests the criticism is only permissible if it originates from the media themselves. Indeed, notable criticism is reported even when it is leveled primarily by political partisans. Consider, for example, the swiftboat nonsense. It is inarguably notable, even though no one other than political shills were making the claims. Moreover the is no blanket prohibition of citation of material from DailyKos; it simply does not speak strongly to the notability. Nevertheless, it can be cited as a reliable report of what the DailyKos said about the donation. Overall, your statements are narrowly worded to be technically correct, but when ordinarily construed, would be misleading. I would suggest, therefore, your list is sorely lacking as advice to new users and they would be well advised to ignore it. --] (]) 22:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Afaik you can only talk of meatpuppetry if NEW members join because of an outside call! Where are those new members here? To call for OLD member, established editors, to weigh in at a discussion is allowed.] (]) 08:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Agreed, through numerous RFCs, those outside of the traditional media (MMFA, HP, Daily Kos, and what have you) have been designated as needing to be judged on a case by case basis. While other, more mainstream sources are preferred, that does not mean they are to be used exclusively (though caution should be used to avoid using the non-traditional sources excessively). ] (]) 23:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::Agreed also that they can be used on a case by case basis. However, the DailyKos did not comment on this, a user wrote a diary entry on this. Not the same.] (]) 19:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			I included your argument to #3 number "Some users have claimed though that by reporting on the DNC's criticism, the news organizations are themselves endorsing it."
	:::Lichter has been employed by FNC since 1996. Generally speaking, those positions are paid on a contractual basis. As to whether Lichter appeared on Fox, or did any "media analysis" for them, during the period of the study I do not know. However, given that he's been on their payroll almost since their inception I'd contend that the microissue of "when" doesn't invalidate the concern (especially given it's such a longstanding relationship). //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
			Am I writing this correctly?
			"in that it suggests the criticism is only permissible if it originates from the media themselves."
			I don't remember saying this, it definitely was not my intention to suggest it. Many members have been implying that the media is endorsing the criticism by reporting on it, that was my attempt. If you're reading more into my words other then what they are actually saying, then I can't help if you are mislead. Nonetheless I have changed the title.
			"Moreover the is no blanket prohibition of citation of material from DailyKos; it simply does not speak strongly to the notability. "
			A user's post(mentioned diary entry to be more specific) is not a statement by the Daily Kos. I said nothing about a blanket ban on their words. It seems people reading this have assumed I am subliminally adding sub-text to my statements to imply gross mischaracterizations of what I am actually saying.] (]) 22:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:I think since you have a very strong opinion on this matter, you may not be the best person to give advice to new users. I think your phrasing on point 3, for instance, still leans toward a particular point of view. reporting the coverage simply notes that the donation "has drawn fire from journalism schools, ethics analysts and progressive political organizations this week." I think setting up a list of points to agree or disagree with is a good starting point for a discussion, but I'm not sure this list fits that bill. --] (]) 23:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	::OK. And may I assume that he appeared as a paid contributor on Fox alone and not on CNN, the networks, and/or MSNBC, etc.? ] (]) 00:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
			::(to clarify I am referring to both sides)I think no one here has any logic, sees elaborate schemes and second meanings behind everything other people and news sources say instead of just listening to the facts. Since it appears nothing has been agreed upon I just erased everything. Great starting point.
	:::I'm sure he's been quoted by at least CBS, if not others, but I don't ''think'' he was on the payroll of the others (though I do not know for sure). Either way, I don't think it mitigates the concern. I'll try to get more information to answer your question. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::Addendum -- To be clear, my position is probably softer than the impression I gave. A lot of times these sorts of articles turn into a polarized "all or nothing" discussion, and I want to move things more towards thoughtful, cooperative discourse. I don't think the source is appropriate for presentation as an objective statistical survey for the reasons listed above. Badmintonhist has asked some good questions, and I don't have the answers (yet), though I don't think they're mitigated by those concerns. I am interested in direct answers as to why the COI concern should be overlooked. I am capable of being persuaded, but I've yet to see any compelling (read: any) direct response to my point. Lay it on me. :) //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::Post-addendum addendum -- Scratch all that... given the circumstances, Ramsquire is probably right -- best to just leave it in and note the COI conflict. Personally, I wouldn't include it and I think it should be discussed, but in the end compromise will win out every time. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
			::Any suggestions?] (]) 23:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	== talking ... and laughing? ==
			::::I'd have to concur with ] on this point... especially considering what you just wrote, which was posted whilst I was writing this very message. While still assuming ] on your part, your phrasing and tone seem a bit brusque; almost as if you had a bone to pick in much the same way you're accusing these "meatpuppets" of having one. Looking briefly through the list of proponents of including this in the Fox News article above, I see a great many of user who have contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages. ARS members, random page editors, one user who it looked like has been working on creating articles listed in the Articles To Be Created listings. This, again, does not credit your position. I understand your concerns, but I would suggest bringing a more helpful tone to this discussion if you'd like it to hold more merit with some editors. Remember, we're all on the same team here. ] (]) 23:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	...
			:::A bone to pick? I have no people I would ever hold a grudge against, my tone is the product of my obviously low view of people making arguments related to politics on Misplaced Pages(both sides), the lack of any direct intonation due to this being written over the internet and not vocalized, and your imagination. I sound much more depressing, and much less misanthropic in real life. As for my actions crediting my positions, people's positions should be credited on their merit and not on the tone being made by them, the fact though that they aren't credited on their merit contributes to my outlook on people arguing here. As for a helpful tone, more of that would be nice, but if you're new to political debates on Misplaced Pages, it doesn't come easily. I am disappointed that facts cannot be agreed upon because it is assumed that they all carry hidden agendas behind them, obviously this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.] (]) 23:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
	This article reads, in part;
			::::Edit: anyone here who does not think there have been meat puppets here cannot realistically hope to gain any credibility with me.(please listen to what I said and don't read it as "I think everybody is a meat puppet", or whatever sub-text or symbolic meaning you can devise).] (]) 23:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::(ec)<blockquote>Looking briefly through the list of proponents of including this in the Fox News article above, I see a great many of user who have contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages.</blockquote> Yes indeed, the Daily Kos Meatpuppet list is quite long indeed. You all can ignore the obvious if you want, but you are only encouraging this type of behaviour in the future. Just take a look at the edit history of some of these editors, even the ones that are actual accounts show very little if any usage in the past year or months, and most have very little edits to begin with. The probable correlation between all of these events is simply far to high to be ignored. ] (]) 23:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Where is that list? Where are the NEW editors who deliberately joined for the purpose of influencing the discusion? Many here seem to misunderstand the main point of the meatmpuppetry rule. To call for established editors to weigh in on an issue is NOT meatpuppetry! ] (]) 08:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			===Continued discussion(thanks Blooddoll)===
	"The New York Times editorial board criticized Fox News for employing political contributor Liz Trotta, who thought talking about assassinating Democratic Senator and Presidential candidate Barack Obama was appropriate for television and laughed after saying it."
			I think we need to stop the arguing about who is a meatpuppet and who is not, who is biased and who is not. Let's discuss this on the basis of Misplaced Pages policy, shall we - since that's really the criteria which needs to be satisfied for inclusion. ] is easily satisfied per the list near the beginning of the RfC; but ] and ] are more problematic. I think Wikiposter hit on something in his list:
	Is the problem Trotta talking about assassinating Obamam or talking about it - and laughing? To suggest the former is to stray into some very difficult first amendment areas and I can't imagine that the New York Times did that. Would it be more accurate to say:
			''"No major news organization has come out and criticized Fox for this. They have only reported on the DNC's criticism without weighing in themselves. Their reports do not approve or disapprove of the DNC's comments, but so far the DNC is the only notable group to criticize Fox."''
	"The New York Times editorial board criticized Fox News for employing political contributor Liz Trotta, who thought talking about assassinating Democratic Senator and Presidential candidate Barack Obama and laughing after saying it was appropriate for television."
			Read through the news reports and you'll see this is true. Only the DNC has criticized NewsCorp and Fox News for this. If we include it as a controversy ''solely on the basis of the minority viewpoint held by the DNC'' we are violating ] and ]. But, you ask, what then is the majority viewpoint? Well, the majority viewpoint seems to be that this isn't controversial - because, as Wikiposter pointed out, the news sources have not weighed in on either side... and in addition, outside of DKos and Misplaced Pages it hasn't attracted a lot of attention. I think we need to resolve the minority viewpoint issue raised by ] before we can move forward. If a more experienced editor can add additional policy guidelines, I think it would help in restructuring this debate into a more constructive dialogue - instead of the pie fight we have now (largely thanks to the DKos blog.) -] (]) 07:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	Virtually the same thing, just with a clearer link between talking AND laughing, a combo certainly inappropriate for discussions of anyone, let alone a head of state?
			:''] is easily satisfied per the list near the beginning of the RfC...''
			:I'm not yet inclined to either agree or disagree with that statement as it appears to be predicated on an assumed resolution to the RfC question itself. IMHO, the issue at hand in the RfC is whether or not this "event" itself rises to satisfy WP:V sourcing requirements that would clearly identify it as relevant for inclusion as a "Fox News" related "controversy". This, of course, begs the oft-asked question within these spaces and so many others...what, exactly, is Misplaced Pages-relevant "controversy" and how might it be both identified and properly sourced. To be more specific to this case, do the protestations of patently partisan sources create de facto "controversies" that satisfy all Misplaced Pages criteria for inclusion? As per the norm in so many of these "controversies", another familiar name emerges from within a Washington Post blog (emphasis mine)...
			::'''Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP'''
	] (]) 07:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
			::
			::News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced," and '''Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going'''. But in a general sense, '''other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet''', so it's anbody's (sic) guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.'''
			::UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above '''I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox''', not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.
			:Now, as to WP:V, let me re-iterate what I stated earlier (and about which I believe you may now concur). WP:V is surely satisfied as to the documentation of the "event" itself but, as you have noted, the "controversy" (with increased scope targeting Fox News) is demonstrably emanating from 2 hyper-partisan sources and doesn't appear to be reflected as notable anyplace else. That case could be buttressed by actual "citations" from purported sources recognizing the "controversy" as legitimate and something more than another "controversy-du-jour" from both the DNC and MMfA. ] (]) 12:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	....
			::Two things: I don't think we're in a position to decide whether the controversy is legitimate, only its notability, and I don't think the critics are as narrow as you suggest. The point of a controversies page is to report on the controversies around Fox News; FNC's critics will likely be a major player in that. We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of criticism, but if there is criticism being widely reported, we should not decide it isn't "real" because the source is partisan. I should also point out, is reporting a much wide critical group. --] (]) 16:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::"''I don't think the critics are as narrow as you suggest.''"
			:::So far you have provided two members of the DNC, and one not notable ethics instructor at a relatively small school for journalists in Florida whose opinions got mentioned by one source. Bring in notable critics if you want to proclaim that more critics are against this.] (]) 18:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::@TeaDrinker First, thanks for your contribution (and to BloodDoll and all editors as well) towards restoring this mayhem back to a discussion of the issues.
			::::As a comment on your 2nd observation...
			::::''...and I don't think the critics are as narrow as you suggest.''
			::::I concur that "criticism" (and simple interest) is not merely limited to the DNC and now MMfA. I should have made note of the greater breadth of "criticisms" (not a whole lot I'd venture anyway) but I was primarily focusing on BloodDoll's seconding observation that "news sources" were apparently not yet "weighing in" on the relative notability of those "criticisms" identified as emanating from the DNC. The Washington Post comments I cited above appear to reflect that relative media indifference.
			::::Perhaps before commenting further on matters relating to Misplaced Pages and "Controversy", I'll yield the floor for comments. ] (]) 18:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::So, can we all agree ] is satisfied for '''the event itself''' (i.e., NewsCorp donated $1 million to a GOP organization)? If so, that's one stumbling block out of the way.
			:::::Now, whether the donation is relevant to include in Fox News controversies is the major problem. As stated before, I do not think that it can be included in this article (Fox News controversies). Again, the reason is that only Democratic organizations have drawn a link from the donation made by NewsCorp to the journalistic integrity of Fox News (or lack thereof.) Let me just address specific editors here.
	:I'd say both the article's wording and your version are misleading - the issue is what specifically she said - the whole "thought it was appropriate" thing sounds like editorializing. A simple quote is better; I just changed the wording in the article to something that I think is more neutral. ] (]) 14:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::::'''JakeInJoisey:''' I agree with your comments. The key here is ''"relative media indifference"''. Aside from PBS, are there any other news sources (per the original list near the beginning of the RfC) that criticize NewsCorp and Fox News for the donation? Do any of them note there may be objectivity implications related to Fox News as a result of the donation? '''If not''', that means this "controversy" is only being pushed hard by the DNC and other Democratic organizations... essentially, a manufactured controversy. As I said before, ] then comes into play. If only the DNC and other Democratic organizations are pushing the Fox News angle, wouldn't that be considered a ''minority viewpoint'' per ]? Inclusion would therefore violate ] by giving more weight to the minority viewpoint held by the DNC and other Democratic organizations. As you say, the majority viewpoint seems to be that of general indifference - in other words, that this is not a controversy.
			:::::'''TeaDrinker:''' Yes, I think we can decide on the legitimacy of this controversy - and I myself don't think it's legitimate. Here's why: It's not reasonable to argue that we must include it in Fox News controversies solely because partisan political organizations (the DNC, Democratic Governor's Association, MMfA) say there is a controversy. If we did that, we'd have to include '''every''' political talking point of both the Democrats and the GOP in Misplaced Pages articles! In my opinion, the discussion '''must''' have more participants than just Democratic organizations vs. NewsCorp and Fox News. So far, this simply isn't the case. But, you say, what about the PBS link you provided? As to that, I don't think the PBS link is enough to prove this "controversy" is widespread, and therefore legitimate to include. Three points here.
	== Other Networks? ==
			:::::First, is the PBS link even a reliable source? I note the story is on "The Rundown", a self-described '''blog'''. Does that satisfy ]? The relevant section here is ]. I am not sure if "The Rundown" is under full editorial control of PBS. If not, it's not a reliable source. Comments?
	Why are there no pages detailing controversies concerning OTHER news networks? This seems patently ridiculous to me. --] (]) 17:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Second, there's the issue of PBS being in the minority when it comes to news reports about the donation and its implications. Most of the other news sources simply report the donation, the criticisms leveled by the DNC and other Democratic organizations, and the responses to the criticism by NewsCorp and Fox News spokespeople. The news sources themselves do not weigh in or even include other, ''independent'' organizations and people criticizing NewsCorp and Fox News. Again, ] comes into play here. If only PBS and a few other news sources say it is a controversy, that would be a minority viewpoint still.
	:Not that this is the proper place to discuss this question, but... this article is an overflow from the ] due to ] considerations. The volume and severity of the criticism towards FNC requires a separate article to cover the topic; presumably other networks don't generally receive as much criticism (] not included). //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Third, the beginning of the PBS blog seems to imply it is a widespread controversy, but does not back it up in the rest of the blog. The only critics mentioned in the PBS blog are the Democratic Governor's Association and Kelly McBride, ethics instructor at journalism training facility The ]. So, yet another partisan political organization (the DGA) and a little known ethics instructor from a little known journalism school. That really isn't very widespread criticism, is it - and, in fact, contrary to what the blog claims in the beginning: ''"News Corp.'s $1 million contribution to the Republican Governors Association has drawn fire from journalism schools, ethics analysts and progressive political organizations this week."'' Note: ''plural'' journalism schools, ethics analysts, and progressive political organizations ... but then the rest of the blog entry cites only 1 journalism school (the Poynter Institute), 1 ethics analyst (Kelly McBride), and 1 progressive political organization (the DGA). This goes back to the comment by '''Wikiposter123''' - these critics are not indicative of a more widespread controversy.
	MSNBC, whether you want to believe it or not Blax, has just as many controversies as FNC.] (]) 23:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::::So to sum up, I still think we have the issue of ] here. Unless the advocates of inclusion can come up with criticism from '''notable''', '''independent''' organizations and people, we are still left with the fact that most of the criticism is coming from a minority - namely Democratic organizations. The majority viewpoint appears to be that of indifference. And thus including it in Fox News controversies would violate ] by giving more weight to a minority viewpoint (that the donation has implications for Fox News) than the majority viewpoint (it doesn't have implications and it isn't controversial). -] (]) 22:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	:]. Please limit further discussion here to improving ''this'' article. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::::: Very well said yes. The "notable, independent organizations" that are directly criticising fox news channel over this donation is the key problem, so far ive not seen sources backing that up. ] (]) 22:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::That is exactly my argument as well. Good articulation of it.] (]) 22:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::Can someone please copy/paste the exact text from ] that means criticism has to come from ''"notable, independent organizations and people"''? I'm not finding it, and not sure to what text you're referring. ] (]) 23:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			The very first line:
			"''Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all '''significant''' viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources''"
			You don't need independent organizations and people, that was just a suggestion that you could do to prove the DNC's viewpoint is a ''significant'' one. If you can prove that in another way then go ahead, but please be aware the a spark of news coverage alone does not prove significance.(although the dieing down of coverage does indicate a '''lack'' of significance)] (]) 23:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:If there was no coverage of this criticism, you would be correct. However the fact that many independent organizations covered this criticism makes it necessary to include in the article. There's nothing there that says the criticism must originate in reliable sources, only that it must be reported on in reliable sources. Swiftboat, for instance, never originated from a reliable source, but was reliably reported on. This donation criticism has been published in multiple reliable sources, even though the sources have not themselves originated or formally taken a position on the matter (which is something news organizations do rarely). --] (]) 23:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			::"''However the fact that many independent organizations covered this criticism makes it necessary to include in the article. ''"
			::Please read ], ], and ] all which state '''repeatedly''' that wide coverage of something does not necessitate its inclusion into an article. If that is your argument then you are not supported by policy, and if you have a problem with policy and believe everything with wide coverage needs to be added then you should take it up on the policy pages, not here.] (]) 00:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Wikiposter0123, seriously dude, you're making a fool of yourself. ], only to the notability of '''articles'''. I have no doubt you will ], but I think we all know your position. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::"Dude" ] discusses that temporary coverage does not warrant an article being created, obviously supporting my point that news coverage does not necessitate inclusion of info on Misplaced Pages. If you think bypassing people's arguments with slight technical attacks and not the core of their argument makes you look smart and not like a fool and a bad wikilawyer, then I think I'll look elsewhere for a source for advice. Don't expect people to take you seriously when this is how you act.] (]) 00:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Did you not read the policy I just linked? ] and related policies ]. Given you thought we were "starting the vote over" (which is wrong on several levels), and you now doubling down on a position that is explicitly prohibited in the linked policy, either you do not read the policies themselves or you're just ] to ]. The veracity with which you've pursued your goal at the expense of all else is evidence of the latter: you're not here making good faith arguments, but rather interested in ]. Since every time I ask you for policy to support your positions you either link to irrelevant notability guidelines or userspace essays, and clearly ignore or ] around actual policies, I will no longer take the bait. Cheers. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 02:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			Blax, stop pretending you have made any arguments with policy thus far to support your position. I have already explained to you that things are not worthy for inclusion solely because they received news coverage, I have cited ] and ] for that and you have yet to respond. ] absolutely talks about content on the wikipedia(not in individual articles, but content in the encyclopedia). I cited notability(as I've explained but you have not listened) to show that just like in event and notnews which say we don't add material based on news coverage to also show we don't start articles based on news coverage to show that this is an overarching theme in Misplaced Pages policy, and that no where in Misplaced Pages do we add content(in already existing articles or in creating articles) based off news coverage. You have stated:
			"''It is my understanding that policy bases significance on the number of reliable sources that publish the issue''"
			To which I have stated the obvious, that Lady Gaga isn't the most significant thing in the world just because she receives a lot of coverage, and that it goes against policy specifically ] among others which all state we don't add stuff to Misplaced Pages because of a flash of news coverages. If you can find a single policy which backs up you above assertion, then cite it. Otherwise wikilawyering will not help your case.] (]) 19:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::: How many different reliable sources actually made a connection between News Corps donation and Fox News Channel? ] (]) 00:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Why is this here? ==
			::::None, and that is the problem. Essentially a bunch of Democratic organizations are claiming there is a connection, and claiming that there is a huge controversy. There are no other sources for those assertions. -] (]) 09:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	<blockquote>On January 21, 2008, Fox's The Live Desk broadcast a discussion for the XBOX 360 video game Mass Effect, for which author Cooper Lawrence was consulted as a psychology specialist. Lawrence argued that the game was misogynistic and depicted full digital nudity. During the interview, Spike host and video-game journalist Geoff Keighley had Lawrence admit that she had never played the game. On January 26, Cooper apologized and admitted she only heard about Mass Effect a few minutes before the segment and has since seen it played, noting that it was less graphic than episodes of the TV show Lost.</blockquote>
			:Wikiposter0123, if I'm taking that line literally, then the significant viewpoint is Fox New's objectivity, and/or media bias. That's a widely held view, shared by many groups and individuals, throughout this article. So, adding the DNC, and head of the DGA, to that list is not undue. ] (]) 14:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	The above section is irrelevant. I'm removing it tomorrow if there are no objections.] (]) 18:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
			It would help if those who are demanding it remain would create a list here of every reliable source that clearly makes the connection between News Corp making a donation and Fox News Channel. At the moment all ive seen is the DNC making the connection, Media matters trying to exploit the issue and some left winger in the far left British Guardian newspaper in a "Comment is free" section where they let all sorts loose to rant. I also note the actual sentence is still in the article, this RFC should be going on for a couple more weeks to ensure we get more feedback and its less influenced by the vote rigging.
			There for we should consider balancing out that sentence for the time being, whilst we decide if it belongs there at all. We need to mention Newscorps donations between 2002-2009 which went to both the dems and republicans. We need to state clearly Foxs or Newscorps response to the allegations. By failing to add these things, we are clearly not being neutral although i do accept this whole article is full of those problems, but we do need to address each of them at some stage. ] (]) 00:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Agree, unless someone can demonstrate this incident received play in multiple reliable sources. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 20:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
			:''It would help if those who are demanding it remain would create a list here of every reliable source that clearly makes the connection between News Corp making a donation and Fox News Channel.''
	Good, we agree on something. I just think that criticism of video games is a little stupid to put here. The average demographics of FNC would never buy this game anyway.] (]) 20:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
			:Assuming inclusion of whatever content were to survive this RfC, it will be, by necessity, sourced and subject to consensus composition. Let's cross that bridge if and when we come to it (though inclusionist's could certainly help their case with specific cites now).
			:''I also note the actual sentence is still in the article...There for we should consider balancing out that sentence for the time being, whilst we decide if it belongs there at all.''
			:I was honestly unaware whether it was currently in or out and, right now, don't really care either way. It's existence is tenuous anyway and not really worth getting agita over. As to other "problems", let's clear this particular plate first, one way or the other. ] (]) 03:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			@TeaDrinker ''This donation criticism has been published in multiple reliable sources, even though the sources have not themselves originated or formally taken a position on the matter (which is something news organizations do rarely).''<br>
	:Well, to be clear, the criticism is not "of video games", it's of Fox News for having hosts who try and manufacture outrage based on "hearing about something a few minutes before" airtime without doing any sort of due diligence or fact checking, shooting from the hip, and later apologizing for being completely wrong. I think this is an excellent demonstration of the lack of ethics for which FNC is constantly criticized and would be germane to this article, however I just don't think that this incident received enough play in reliable sources to meet our requirements for inclusion on Misplaced Pages. Big difference. :) //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
			Perhaps rarely overtly but surely and frequently covertly by coverage (or lack thereof)...but that discussion is for another time, another place. The issue here (and as was, I think, reflected in point #1 of your earlier post) is whether this "criticism" (which surely exists) rises to a level of "controversy" for the purposes of inclusion within this article. It is that question that goes to the heart of this RfC and warrants resolution.
			You stated earlier...
			:''We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of criticism, but if there is criticism being widely reported, we should not decide it isn't "real" because the source is partisan.''
			...and there we part company. I'll steal and modify your prose to offer...
			:We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of "controversy", but if there is "controversy" being widely reported, then it is appropriate for inclusion in this article.
			Unqualified "criticism" does not equal "controversy", and there's the rub, IMHO. The floor is yours. ] (]) 00:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I stand corrected, I was using "controversy" and "criticism" interchangeably. To my mind, if there is wide reporting of some criticism of an action (or perceived action) there's a controversy. But I am fine with the distinction you draw; I should think this qualifies either way. What we should avoid is if someone on Kos or such posted a diatribe about Fox and it went no further. Here the controversy about the donation quite clearly it has been widely reported, so it should be included.
			::@Wikiposter0123, thanks for the reminder of policy and guidelines. I have read them and have applied them or related rules in perhaps a thousand different cases. I can assure you there is a basis in those documents to include the content; but I would encourage you to re-think your argument. Why does not including the controversy make Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia. That's fundamentally the question at issue here. Would a person searching for controversies surrounding FNC not think that was relevant? I submit that this sort of thing is precisely the sort of controversy that a user would be looking for. Even if you think it is unfounded, the fact that people are calling it a controversy in the media makes it appropriate for inclusion. {{unsigned|TeaDrinker}}
			:::TeaDrinker, I think you're missing the point me and others have been trying to make. No legitimate controversy exists - because so far, ''only Democratic organizations have asserted that the NewsCorp donation calls into question Fox News' journalistic integrity.'' It isn't a huge controversy ''just because'' the DNC, MMfA, DGA, et al. say it is. The NewsCorp donation does not have an effect on the journalistic integrity of Fox News ''just because'' the DNC, MMfA, DGA, et al. say it does. It is a manufactured controversy and politically motivated attack on Fox News. You would be violating ] and ] if you included it, because you are giving undue weight to the viewpoint of a minority group - in this case, the Democratic organizations who assert the integrity of Fox News is now ruined and that it is a huge controversy.
			:::Also, you make several assertions in your reply to JakeInJoisey that I disagree with. I will quote.
	::I agree. It sounds a lot like what Obama did to Crowley and the Cambridge Police Department. Shoot from the hip, no due diligece or fact checking, and later apologizing for being completely wrong. ;) ] (]) 17:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
	::: Good one! ] (]) 17:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::: Owned] (]) 15:27, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
	It is gone...] (]) 03:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
			:::''Would a person searching for controversies surrounding FNC not think that was relevant?''
	== There is a current issue about Obama calling them a Faux New ==
	It was covered this past weekend on ] and is the subject of Today's ] piece. ] (]) 23:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
			:::This is not relevant to the discussion, because what gets included on Misplaced Pages is determined by Misplaced Pages policies. You have failed to show that this "controversy" meets ] and ], among others. Also, unless you're psychic, I don't think you can find out just what someone searching for FNC controversies would think relevant or not. It is a question that cannot be answered with any surety.
	* Wrt the WH-Fox "war": since this topic is as equally about the White House as about FNC, I think it probably deserves its own article rather than to be covered either solely here or the article about the ]. (BTW the talkpage of the ''Conterversy'' article is here. --> ])] 01:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
	* BTW the place this topic, or something similar, is currently being discussed is here: ].] 13:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
			:::''I submit that this sort of thing is precisely the sort of controversy that a user would be looking for.''
	== Faux News????==
			:::Personal opinion and therefore not relevant, because this is not about our personal opinions - it is about meeting basic Misplaced Pages standards such as ] and ] that so far have not been met.
	Why the hell is the URL named /Faux_News? Talk about biased!! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Thanks for manufacturing that bit of info. Stop lieing and start constructively editing.{{unsigned|R9tgokunks}}
	::That is called a redirect, and I assume it is there due to their phonetic similarity. No one is "lieing" or "manufacturing" anything, so please resist the urge to hurtle accusations against editors writ large. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 20:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
			:::''Even if you think it is unfounded, the fact that people are calling it a controversy in the media makes it appropriate for inclusion.''
			:::The "people" calling it a controversy consist almost entirely of Democratic organizations - and, as noted above, something is not a controversy ''just because'' one person or group claims it is. And the media aren't giving an opinion either way - they are merely reporting the remarks of the various Democratic organizations.
	== Video Footage/Crowd Size ==
			:::Bottom line: Democratic organizations criticizing NewsCorp and Fox News and claiming that it is a controversy is ''not enough''. Editors in favor of inclusion need to come up with organizations or people ''other than'' the DNC, MMfA, etc. who are making the same points. Then they might satisfy ], ], ], etc. -] (]) 09:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	It is apparent someone really wants this to go away. First the excuse was the references, then it was the ridiculous "it is covered elsewhere", then it was it didn't have "weight"--even though the controversy was extensively covered. Sean Hannity misused video footage, was caught, and he fessed up to it. If that isn't an FN controversy, I don't know what is. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::::The entire article is full of groups and individuals making the same points. Every group and individual in this article is questioning Fox New's journalist ethics and media bias. So, adding the DNC, or head of the DGA, is not undue. They share a widely held view of Fox News. ] (]) 14:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::: But they are not neutral. Just because the DNC are unhappy that NewsCorp gave a donation to the RPA (even though they have also donated to the Democrats) does not mean it is justification for inclusion on this article. We need neutral sources raising concerns about it and linking Fox News Channel itself, rather than just Newscorp. Otherwise we are giving it undue weight, it would not be out of place in this article which clearly violates it in most sections, but it does not mean we should add more. ] (]) 15:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::''The entire article is full of groups and individuals making the same points. Every group and individual in this article is questioning Fox New's journalist ethics and media bias.''
			::::::Interesting observation. Were this an AfD consideration citing ] for cause, your comment might be cited in a finding for deletion. ] (]) 15:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::It is not for us to judge whether we think a controversy is legitimate or manufactured; we simply report on the controversies which achieve a national level of attention (and the relevant facts behind them). Adding your own editorializing as to "legitimate" controversies is a clear ] issue. But this should be a moot point, since (as I have pointed out before); there's ample evidence this extends beyond the DNC. Even Wikiposter0123 has pointed out some of the other critics. This is clearly a "legitimate" controversy, even by the "neutral" standards being suggested. --] (]) 16:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::: Is it a notable controversy for this page? Every time the DNC moans about something must it be listed on this page? There are not neutral sources showing this to be a controversy about fox news channel specifically. ] (]) 16:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::The two points, to reiterate: 1. Yes, if the DNC's criticism is widely reported, then it should be included, and 2. the criticism demonstrably extends well beyond the DNC. --] (]) 17:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::BritishWatcher, groups and sources do not have to be neutral for inclusion. If I'm wrong, please cite the policy that says otherwise. The only ] I'm aware of is the one that says we have to write about subjects in neutral tone, even when the sources are not. And, we do have sources to support its inclusion. ''"The Democratic National Committee called into question Fox News' objectivity Tuesday..."'' (), to cite one. ] (]) 18:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::::We appear to be inching our way towards what is, IMHO, the nexus of this issue. Earlier you stated...
	:I've found an extraordinary burden seems required to put any sort of info critical of FNC into this article and its parent. The best course of action is to get together a large list of ] to put to bed any ] attempts to exclude the information. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 04:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::::::::''To my mind, if there is wide reporting of some criticism of an action (or perceived action) there's a controversy.''
			::::::::::If I might re-state your position as I understand it...
			:::::::::::1. You concur that "criticisms" and "controversies" are not synonymous (in fact, the title of a main article section does suggest otherwise)
			:::::::::::2. A "controversy", for Misplaced Pages purposes, may be defined solely by the breadth of reliable sourcing providing documentation of the "criticism".
			:::::::::::3. The number or nature of the documented "critics" from whom this "criticism" emanates has no bearing, for Misplaced Pages purposes, on whether or not this "criticism" rises to a level that might rightly characterize it as a "controversy".
			::::::::::If that is a fair representation of your position (did I overlook or misrepresent anything?), then I have some diffculty squaring it with another statement in which I believe you previously concurred...
			:::::::::::''We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of "controversy".''
			::::::::::<s>If we were to apply your criteria to this content, would we not be elevating a partisan attack to a level of "controversy". Is there any independent analysis/sourcing that suggests this is something other than a partisan attack?</s> ] (]) 20:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)] (]) 18:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Striking my last for now as I had forgotten your earlier qualifier on that point which, barring any further amendment or clarification on your part, may render my question moot. More to come... ] (]) 20:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			"''Why does not including the controversy make Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia.''"<br>
	::Is there a WP:EditForTheAges? If not, perhaps it's time for one to be developed. It's difficult to imagine banality of this nature (ed. added: the "Jarret Segment") surviving a week no less a decade in the reputable encyclopedic treatmeant of a subject. Pass the popcorn please. ] (]) 14:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			The classic inclusionist argument. Why should not Misplaced Pages post trivial information if ''someone'' will find it interesting ], ]. I further more contend that people looking for criticism of Fox will either be:<br>
	:::I would think that would depend on whether or not the pattern continues to repeat itself. Showing video or photos in a ] is certainly a form of falsifying information. One (or two) incidents would be likely to fade into history but if the list continues to grow then it would remain a noteworthy fact. I suppose in the end, it's up to Fox News ] (]) 14:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			a:Haters just looking for any criticism what-so-ever and not encyclopedic and rationale reasons to hate Fox. Giving info for them is unnecessary, that is what blogs and internet forums are for.<br>
			b:People looking for legitimate or significant criticism of Fox in which I think most people will either find this irrelevant noting only the DNC has really criticized them for this, or they will be mislead into believing it is more important then it is because they found it in an online encyclopedia and they just assume only important or notable things get reported here.(as our policy claims it does)<br>
			"''Even Wikiposter0123 has pointed out some of the other critics.''"<br>
			Only to mock how non-notable they are. A ethics professor of no significance within the ethics field at a small journalism school in Florida whose opinion was posted in a single piece, and Media Matters. Does that sound like a combo that elevates the significance of this topic? No.<br>
			"''Wikiposter0123, if I'm taking that line literally, then the significant viewpoint is Fox New's objectivity, and/or media bias.''"<br>
			Yes<br>
			"''That's a widely held view, shared by many groups and individuals, throughout this article.''"<br>
			Many of them also undue weight.
			"''So, adding the DNC, and head of the DGA, to that list is not undue.''"<br>
			No, it is ''also'' undue.<br>
			And lastly:<br>
			"''Even if you think it is unfounded, the fact that people are calling it a controversy in the media makes it appropriate for inclusion.''"<br>
			People in the media are not calling it a controversy, they are calling it a criticism by the DNC. A criticism solely by the DNC does not equal significance, and neither does a flash of media coverage on that criticism. Fox news is unpopular enough that if a significant criticism came up it would be widely picked up by its detractors, the fact more people haven't come out and similarly criticized Fox is evidence that this isn't significant.] (]) 19:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:FWIW, "notable" is still a fine word to use in lieu of "significant"...and you can't be served with a wikilawyer subpoena for doing so. ] (]) 20:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Thanks, I was just trying to use different synonyms of notable to make my writing sound less repetitive, I didn't think it would sound like some sort of wikilawyer trick.] (]) 21:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I'm wondering, just what sort of thing are you looking for to make this donation important for inclusion? (Open to any of the advocates for removal) --] (]) 20:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::We've mentioned a few already, here are some possibilities.
			*"notable, independent organizations and people"
			*Media ethics groups
			*Democrats who the general public has actually heard of like Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Biden, Reid. Republicans also but you're not going to find any.
			*Other news corporations, heads of news corporations, or spokespeople of news corporations
			*a movement formed in protest of the donation(ex: a movement started in protest to boycott Glenn Beck's show after he questioned whether the president was a racist)
			*Evidence of a large public outcry
			*Notable(not Mediamatters editors) people predicting this will likely follow Fox around for a long time to come and lead to ratings decline
			*News reporters actually commenting on the significance of the criticism by the DNC
			*continued coverage with in depth analysis
			*people reporting on significant effects this donation has caused
			There are a wide variety of things you could use to find to show notability. The lack of these things however illustrates a lack of notability.] (]) 21:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::Even an article purporting to treat "controversies" requires at least a modicum of NPOV editorial discretion and judgement as to content. Given the recent (and legitimate, I might add) flap and ensuing public embarrassment for Hannity and Fox, if use of this "video" (ed. added: in the "Jarret Segment") was, indeed, further evidence of some systemic "pattern" of willful deception rather than some ham-fisted production error used as a "tease" to some non-descript "happy-talk" afternoon segment, it simply strains credulity to suggest that a video replete with "McCain-Palin" campaign images would be utilized. Let's get real here.
			: Good list, it would certainly just take a few of those things to justify its inclusion on this article but so far if that was a check list, theres a lot of fails. ] (]) 21:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:: Thanks, although I would argue that if that were a check list it would have nothing but fails. In fact, I am recommending if someone finds something that falls into one of those categories(or another category they have created) to put the ref by it and to "check" it off.(or just present it down below in a post)] (]) 22:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Weight basically says depth and length of coverage dictates space and detail in an article, and I feel there's enough depth and length in sources to warrant a sentence. I think you're putting too much emphasis on specific factors to happen for inclusion, which is not in the spirit of the policy. ] (]) 22:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Looking at the average coverage by people on this I would estimate that coverage had largely stopped before the third day. That's not a lot of length. As far as depth of coverage this header pretty much sums up the depth this topic received in the media "Democrats attack Fox for News Corp . donation", which isn't in-depth at all.] (]) 22:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			=== TL;DR version ===
	::::on edit: By the way, both my comments are in reference to the "Jarret Segment" video and I've amended my comments to reflect that. ] (]) 18:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			{{hat|Point taken, too soon}}
			Alright, the above discussions have grown way the hell out of hand and reading through the discussion is becoming just plain impossible. For the sake of trying to keep this manageable, is there anyway to condense the main arguments down to two or three posts and/or organize them so that someone can get the main thrust of each argument w/o having to drive themselves nuts? (Note this isn't a "Let's throw it out and start it again" it's more of a "Let's make this so the average user doesn't simply go "tl;dr" and leave)] (]) 00:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Where in the hell do you people get the idea that you can just throw out a hundred editors' contributions, and/or boil them down? There is no argument here, there is no question here... consensus is super duper completely clear, and there is absolutely no point to continuing to feed the two or three editors intent on ] anything. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::: I see a pattern of labeling scandal prone Republicans as Democrats, altering photos of Democrats to appear unattractive, and "accidentally" showing (and describing) larger crowds than were actually present. I think what strains credibility is the idea that these are all "ham-fisted production errors" ] (]) 18:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			::See note added, that's a helluva wall of text. Thought it might be nice to summarize arguments for newcomers (as I expect there will be). ] (]) 00:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
	::::::I understand the Jon Stewart controversy, although it's not worded very clearly. One 9/12 clip deceptively spliced into a video montage of Bachmann's protest, is all it should take. The Jarrett teaser is a joke, only a controversy because some organizations' sole existence is to create such a controversy, typically based on political ideologies. ] (]) 18:39, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::That's a hell of a lot different than a "reboot", don't you think? Starting bullshit like "second voting" only adds to the confusion, which I suspect is exactly why Wikiposter and Britishwatcher are all over it. Over here in the real world, we all know that doing so is wildly unhelpful and completely unsupported in policy. Instead of playing into their painfully obvious attempt to try and corrupt the process, you should either point out the tomfoolery or ignore it. To your broader attempt, yes there will come a time at which it will be time to consider all of the "wall of text" and attempt to make some sort of summary of the viewpoints. However, 24 hours after the RFC started is <u>not<u> that time. :-) //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			=== Coverage of the Donation ===
	::::::That is your opinion. Actually, the Jarrett controversy is worse because he is not a commentator but one of the Fox News "Anchors" that are supposed to be unbiased, gushing over the crowds that are an obvious fabrication. This has attracted the attention of the MSM, especially considering the former Stewart controversy was just a week ago. At worst, these incidents are intentionally deceptive, at best, extraordinarily incompetent. But they are a legitimate controversy nonetheless.] (]) 18:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Reporting large crowds is not biased, it's reporting. The AP did a story titled "Thousands cheer Palin in Mich. for book tour"], which on a side note, was changed to read "Hundreds cheer Palin in Mich. for book tour" by ] and ] news. So, I don't understand where you accuse him of a "obvious fabrication," or even "gushing." I agree the legitimate Jon Stewart controversy brought about this abomination.
	:::::::I do see a double standard here, and think we should look to all news networks that have engaged in such deception. Most recently would be ] using photoshopped images of ]. ] (]) 19:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::ThinkEnemies, I think you're missing the point. "Reporting large crowds" is not the issue -- repeatedly airing incorrect footage that gives a false impression of popularity that always benefits a particular ideological viewpoint certainly is. Also, this page really shouldn't be used to try and incite a retaliatory action -- ]. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 05:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::I like you Blax, but you are wrong. I understand the point, but if you believe they were "''airing incorrect footage that gives a false impression of popularity that always benefits a particular ideological viewpoint''," then certainly, you should contact the best reactionary. I hope we are better than those bloggers who act stupidly in the face of reality. ] (]) 07:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::::I do not understand your reply. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 14:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Don't worry about it, even my wife has trouble understanding me. ] (]) 06:33, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
			One of the questions has been the extent of the coverage of the $1 million donation by News Corp to the RGA. Feel free to add to these. (Note that some coverage used content or headlines from wire services, so they have similar titles or content.) --] (]) 22:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Self-revert ==
			Non-editorial articles/substantive coverage
	I have reverted my own edit of the following in in ] as I was unaware of the "controversial topic" tag in talk...
			* Kurtz, Howard. "Democrats' letter to Fox News denounces News Corp. donation to Republicans" ''Washington Post'' August 18, 2010
			* "Fox News (and The Times) silent on News Corp 's $1m Republican party donation" ''Guardian Unlimited'', August 20, 2010.
			* "Dems fume over $1M Murdoch donation" ''The Bulletin'' August 19, 2010
			* "Democrats call on Fox to include disclaimer" ''Charleston Daily Mail'', August 19, 2010
			* "Fox News hit for big GOP donation - $1 million check brings call to run disclaimers on TV" ''Chicago Tribune'', August 19, 2010.
			* "Dems lean on News Corp . for gift to GOP group," ''Houston Chronicle'', August 19, 2010.
			* "Fox News hit for big GOP donation" ''Orlando Sentinel'', August 19, 2010
			* "Democrats Protest News Corp's Donation to GOP" ''Pittsburgh Post-Gazette'', August 19, 2010
			* "$1M gift to GOP draws fire" ''northjersey.com'', August 19, 2010
			* "Fox News' parent gives $1 million to GOP unit" ''Buffalo News'', August 18, 2010
			* "Democrats cry foul over News Corp 's Republican donation" ''Deutsche Press-Agentur'', August 18, 2010
			* "Rupert Murdoch's News Corp . Gives Big To GOP", ''All Things Considered, National Public Radio'', August 18, 2010
			* Lichtblau, E and B. Stelter. "News Corp . Gives G.O.P. $1 Million", ''New York Times'', August 18, 2010
			* "Dems: Fox needs disclaimer -- We gave to GOP", ''Seattle Post-Intelligencer'', August 18, 2010
			* "Fox News parent gives $1M to GOP governors group", ''Seattle Times'', August 18, 2010
			* "Dems say $1M donation skews media coverage" ''UPI News Service'', August 18, 2010
			* Kurtz, Howard. "News Corp . defends $1 million gift to GOP - Critics say donation by Fox News's parent company shows bias against Dems" ''Washington Post'', August 18, 2010.
			* "Fox News' parent: $1 mil to GOP governors", ''Seattle Post-Intelligencer'', August 17, 2010.
			Non-editorial Briefs (1 paragraph or less)
	:The following day, Fox News announced it would discipline the people responsible.
			* "Fox News Watch", ''FOX News'', August 21, 2010
	This is a factual error developed in the chain of links from an apparent original source and I suggest the following edit...
			* Hirschfeld, Peter. "National parties watching Vt. race - Big money from national organizations could sway elections outcome" ''The Times Argus'' August 22, 2010
			* "Fox News' GOP gift draws flak". ''The Journal Gazette'', August 19, 2010
			* "Democrats attack Fox for News Corp . donation" ''Lexington Herald-Leader'', August 19, 2010
			* "Fox News donation to GOP under fire", ''St. Paul Pioneer Press'', August 19, 2010
			* "Political Headlines", ''FOX News Channel'', August 18, 2010
			Editorial
	:Fox offered an on-air apology the following day during the same "Happening Now" segment citing regrets for what they described as a "video error" with no intent to mislead.
			* Huff, Steve. "Democrats, Obama Target Fox News, Republicans Over Donation," ''The New York Observer'', August 18, 2010
			* Reliable Sources, ''CNN'', August 22, 2010
			* Countdown with Keith Olbermann, ''MSNBC'' August 17, 2010.
			* "Fox News Fair and balanced?" ''Charleston Gazette (WV)'', August 24, 2010
			* "Does the GOP own Fox News, or does Fox News own the GOP?" ''Daily Astorian'', August 24, 2010
			* The ED Show, ''MSNBC'', August 24, 2010
			* Hagey, Keach. "Brave new world of political giving a risky one for media companies Court ruling that eases limits on donations raises concerns over objectivity, partisanship" ''The Star-Ledger'' August 22, 2010.
			* "Political contributions and media organizations don't mix" ''Dallas Morning News'', August 21, 2010
			* Shafer, Jack. "Sympathy for Rupert Murdoch", ''Slate'', August 18, 2010
			* "Fox News Channel" ''Orlando Sentinel (online)'', August 17, 2010.
			*"'Investment' in Political Campaigns Can Damage Brands" ''Advertising Age'', August 23, 2010 <!-- listed under the "Viewpoint: Editorial" section by its publisher at adage.com/current-issue -->
			* Lyons, Gene. "Journalists: Show some guts" ''Berkshire Eagle'' 30 August, 2010 (also printed in the Valley City Times-Record, Daily News Tribune, Gloucester County Times, Kent County Daily Times, MetroWest Daily News, Times Reporter, Daily Herald, Evening Sun, Newton Daily News)
			:A laudable effort...but thus far addressing a non-issue. ] for the "criticism" is uncontested and irrelevant to the RfC. Is there content in there suggesting something more than run-of-the-mill partisan sniping at Fox News by proxy? If you've read all these, citations...please. If you're going to prevail, you're going to need them anyway. ] (]) 22:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	] (]) 01:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
	::Just for the record, my original edit (which, I believe, is appropriate) was restored by ]. Barring any further inputs, I'll take that as consensus being achieved. ] (]) 15:08, 23 November 2009 (UTC)		::None-the-less I'm sure this is probably going to become their major talking point(even if it is a strawman), so I've created a subsection for concerns on the coverage below.] (]) 22:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Edit:]] (]) 22:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::I won't assume anything...other than good faith. If there's RfC-relevant meat on those bones, I'd like to see it cited and defended as to the relevance. ] (]) 22:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	== Political ideologies of critics ==
			::::(edit conflict) @JakeInJoisey: You're back to claiming criticism doesn't count if it comes from a partisan source. I don't see where you're getting that; it is neither demonstrable in policy nor in what makes a good encyclopedia. However, even ignoring that, we have multiple editorial boards taking a dim view of the donation. We even have secondary reliable reporting on the criticism which notes the breadth of the criticism beyond the DNC. I am frankly puzzled as to what else it is you suggest we need. --] (]) 22:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	I realise this may be opening a can of worms but...
			:::::Notability of a ] isn't based on its size and neither is your list which is filled with articles by non-notable local news sources, brief mentions of the donation(its own section even), "routine" coverage that didn't go in-depth or provide any analysis, and stories that came out right after the incident.
	] recently the following text to the intro:
			:::::Criticism is much more notable when it comes from a non-partisan source, a few Dems criticize Fox and now it's notable? Sure, if they had some others join them.
	: Prominent Democratic and Progressive critics such as former DNC Chairman ], the ], and the group ] have accused the network of having a ]...
			:::::"''Multiple editorial boards''", the board itself criticized Fox or did just one of it's writers. Having a few writers who no one has heard of on editorials boards that few people read isn't going to prove notability.
			:::::As for your being puzzled as to what we want, what about puzzles you? and how did you draw from that that we wanted articles from the Dallas Morning News.] (]) 22:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Two things: your goalposts continue to shift and I have now met even your own personal standard. It is a violation of ] for us to judge some criticism, even if widely reported, insignificant because we don't like the critic or think it is unfair. I take strong exception to these bizarre ideas you're promulgating, that we can't discuss criticism unless it originates with people we like (we can demand it ''be reported'' reliably, but not that the criticism itself be valid). Nevertheless, I have provided you with precisely what you requested. Editorial boards of several news organizations (unsigned editorials are presumed to come from the board) have taken a stance on the question. These are the "other media organizations" you refer to. National media critics, including Howard Kurtz (Washington Post media critic), Dave Levinthal (Center for Responsive Politics), Anita Dunn (former Whitehouse Communications Director), and Eric Burns (former media critic for FOX) have all made comments on it. These are the "notable, independent organizations and people" you were asking for. Obama was reported (NY Observer) to have criticized it. He is a Democratic politician most people have heard of. Many of the editorials commented on the significance... Will the goal post shift further? --] (]) 23:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			#], he definitely could be notable if he criticized Fox. He doesn't criticize them though, but rather reports that the DNC has attacked Fox news and their leader "is doing what he can to keep the story alive. "
	The edit summary being: " (added detail on accusers of Fox and mroe detail on Fox denial. This information allows the lede to stand alone by showing that the accusers of Fox have their own agenda as per WP:NPOV)"
			#], no wiki, not notable
			#] (former Whitehouse Communications Director), the one who couldn't possibly have a grudge against Fox and is only known by the general public due to the controversy where she stated Mao-Zedong was one of her two favorite political philosophers that Fox lead in covering. That Anita Dunn? Edit: I see that one article on the News Corp donation mentions Anita Dunn's criticism of Fox back during the White House feud, but she is not even mentioning the News Corp donation(indeed her criticism of Fox predated the donation by several months). Is this the comment you were talking about? Because if so it doesn't appear she has even commented on the News Corp donation.(if I'm wrong and she does elsewhere please point me to it, although she would barely have add any weight to the notability of the criticism).
			#] criticized the donation? Boy does he like to unnecessarily weigh in on controversies(like every.single.one.). Oh wait, he didn't. Despite the title saying "Obama Target Fox News" the only mention of Obama in that article is this line:
			:"The director of Organizing for America, a project of the Democratic National Committee, sent a notice out to past donors to Barack Obama's presidential campaign"
			It is important to read the articles before citing instead of just using the info from the headline because headlines often mislead by making spectacular statements to draw readers in that aren't backed up in the article.
			Ironic that even though he has weighed in on the Cambridge Police incident, the building of the Mosque near Ground Zero, and every other controversy that he hasn't weighed in on this one.(more proof of a lack of notability?)
			:"''These are the "other media organizations" you refer to.''"
			No, ''these'' are the other media organizations I refer to:<br>
			Advertising Age, Dallas Morning News, The Star-Ledger, Daily Astorian, Charleston Gazette, St. Paul Pioneer Press, Lexington Herald-Leader, The Journal Gazette, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Seattle Times, UPI News Service, <strike>Deutsche Press-Agentur</strike>, Buffalo News, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Orlando Sentinel, Houston Chronicle, Charleston Daily Mail, The Bulletin.
			I fail the see why you characterize my request for notable people criticizing the News Corp donation to show the criticism's notability as "bizarre". I don't know why you would think I am constantly changing goalposts when that is all that I am asking for. I don't know what has possessed you to claim that you have met this standard and "I take strong exception to these bizarre ideas you're promulgating" that I am arguing that "we can't discuss criticism unless it originates with people we like".] (]) 00:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	I am concerned with this for a number of reasons. Firstly, it would seem to imply these criticisms are solely from progressive and Democratic sources - if this is true, it requires a cite of some sort. Also, there was no rationale given for choosing these specific examples - Dean, for example, only appears once in the entire article, making the mention in the intro seem a bit strange (Media Matters and the Obama Administration, by contrast, are both mentioned repeatedly in the article and so their significance would seem to be explained by the references used later on.)
			::Yes, I characterize calling the largest wire service in Germany as failing to be mainstream press "bizarre." My two points: It is absolutely ] to claim that criticism has to come from non-partisan sources. It merely has to be reliably reported on. I totally reject your standard that criticism needs to have been made by people you like. As for your dismissal of every media outlet which contradicts your claims as insignificant, biased, or somehow unworthy of inclusion, I am at a loss. Obviously if the Seattle PI reports something, it is counted as a ]. I have read the articles I cited, but clearly we're not reading the same articles.
	More generally, the edit summary would seem to indicate a belief that the only accusers of Fox are doing so due to their own "agenda" - and that the edit was made to insert this belief into the article.
			::Howard Kurtz called News Corp's donation hypocritical, and suggested it was "a self-inflicted wound." But don't take my word for it, the coverage ''of the criticism'' noted "Howard Kurtz reports that the Democrats have been quick to take advantage of a partisan act that has been widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." That's a secondary source reporting on the events, consistent with ]. You wanted notable criticism, there's an international paper reporting that there is "wide regard" of this as a breach of journalistic ethics.
			::When I pointed out NPR said the same thing, you rejected that claim too. There's obvious criticism, there's reporting at a national and international level of the criticism. There's substantive coverage from independent media all over the country, including condemnation by independent media organizations. That's precisely what you proposed as your standard. --] (]) 00:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Oi, point me to the sources you are even talking about because I think you are misreading them from what I've read.
	That said, I am reluctant to edit this out immediately as I'm aware this article is contentious enough as it is. ] (]) 20:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::" You wanted notable criticism, there's an international paper reporting that there is "wide regard" of this as a breach of journalistic ethics."
			I couldn't find their report on their site, the best I could find was it cut-and-pasted in which it says nothing of the sort, so at this time I have to assume that you are either totally incompetent, misspoke, or something weird is going on. Direct me to where you are reading this.
			:::Howard Kurtz called News Corp's donation hypocritical, and suggested it was "a self-inflicted wound." But don't take my word for it, the coverage ''of the criticism'' noted "Howard Kurtz reports that the Democrats have been quick to take advantage of a partisan act that has been widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics."
			:::Please, where does it say this, certainly not in his own article, and I am having trouble locating him saying these words.
			:::That is really the closest you have to making a point, but I'm fairly certain it is wrong, but I can't direct you to him not saying this because I can't find him saying this. Please point me to where you think Howard Kurtz says this is "widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." because so far that just looks wrong as he has not said as much in his report. Further more when did he call it "hypocritical" are you just making stuff up now?
			:::"When I pointed out NPR said the same thing, you rejected that claim too."
			:::NPR said this was "widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." Show me where they say this.
			:::"I have read the articles I cited, but clearly we're not reading the same articles."
			:::Here's a hint ''post links to articles if you want to talk about them.'' I'm not going to continue scouring the internet for sources you don't provide links to that .,
			:::Also, I'm not even finding any criticism by Anita Dunn about the donation, you mind telling me what article you think she is? Will you leave if this turns out just to be a huge waste of time?] (]) 06:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	:I don't know if you and I are the only editors in Wikipedialand who make note of the guidance for "controversial topics", but it appears sometimes that we are few and far between. I agree with you that this substantive edit would be better served by posting it here first for a discussion of its merit. I'm also of the opinion that it could be justifiably reverted by anyone under "controversial topic" guidelines and, hopefully, brought here in good faith for consideration. Just my .02 and I'm outta here (for now anyway). ] (]) 20:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
			::::Now we seem to be getting somewhere. Howard Kurtz called the donation hypocritical on reliable sources, August 22. Specifically it was in reference to Rupert Murdoch's previous assertion that News Corp didn't support the "Tea Party or any other party." Kurtz went on to characterize the donation, noting that other media owners had donated money as well, then saying Murdoch should have know this donation would cause criticism (calling it a "self inflicted wound").
	::This is definitely "opening a can of worms," and will probably lead us down a ]. I do believe there is an agenda, ] doesn't attempt to hide it and can be called a . I don't think the ] and ] should be described as "progressive critics," their agendas are implied. ] (]) 21:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
			::::Anita Dunn, was perhaps less direct, said in regards to the donation "We see Fox right now as the source and the outlet for Republican Party talking points. And it's fine if that’s, you know, how they want to build their business model. But we don’t think we need to treat them as though they are a news organization, the way other news organizations here are treated." This was on NPR's all things considered, August 18th.
	The reasoning for not mentioning specific criticisms is can be found in the ] at the top of the main FNC page. The point was one of herculean effort by all sides, and is well grounded in policy and history. Though the wording of the intro has been a subject of much discussion over the years, the basic principles of ''why'' it is covered in the way that it is has been quite stable, and I find myself unaware of any new argument that fundamentally changes the points upon which this solution was based. As such, I would argue that the same reasoning was inherited here. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
			::::I can't provide links since not everything is yet on the internet (or at least, not freely available on the internet). While I hold your demands for ever-increasing "notability" of critics is inconsistent ] and ], I believe we have now met even your standard. --] (]) 19:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Blax has a good point (Did I just type that? *laughs* Sorry Blax, I couldn't resist - I'm only kidding) when he mentions the reasoning behind specific examples in the intro. I wasn't trying to bring in every example of suspected wrongdoing, onlyl to summarize the overall issue. This edit was based on a long discussion on the ] article itself regarding NPOV and the critisisms of FOX. The examples used here were ones that I took note of in the current references listed for the article itself. I stated that the critics were <i>Democrats</i> <b>or</b> Progressives (such as Colbert or Meyer), and that the groups cited here have a self-stated bias against conservatives. As these facts had already been established in the Fox News article I was simply re-stating them here to attempt to bring the article more in line with WP:NPOV. Once you get past the intro this reads like an attack site and there is hardly any mention of a dissenting opinion or defense of FNC, it seems more than fair to include the fact that the primary detracters of the channel have an agenda. I appreciate the discussion, and if anybody wants to continue I'll check in a couple more times this evening. ] (]) 23:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::"Howard Kurtz called the donation hypocritical on reliable sources, August 22. Specifically it was in reference to Rupert Murdoch's previous assertion that News Corp didn't support the "Tea Party or any other party." Kurtz went on to characterize the donation, noting that other media owners had donated money as well, then saying Murdoch should have know this donation would cause criticism (calling it a "self inflicted wound")."
	::I do not subscribe to the "label every critic" ideology. "Dissenting opinion" and "defense of FNC" are perfectly valid and welcome -- I strongly encourage you to find some ] instances of such and add them to the article for balance, which is what is recommended by ]. The proper solution is '''not''' to go and try to explain critics' "agendas" and biases based on subjective editorial opinions. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 23:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Again, where are you getting this?
			:::::"Anita Dunn, was perhaps less direct"
	:::With all due respect, I think you may have misread what I said there. Not once did I source "subjective editorial opinion". This is an article on the controversies surrounding Fox News Channel. From a neutral point of view, if a biased source attempts to create a controversy around a particular topic, then that attempt should be noted as such. Looking through this article, most of the reliable sources used throughout are either from Democratic/Liberal politicians/activists, or groups that are self-described as standing against a particular ideology accusing FNC of exhibiting the bias of the ideology that the group is against. It is no stretch to state in the intro that many of the critics of FNC are either Democrats or Progressives. It is also fair to include FNC's published refutation of the charges against it (which I did source). If my above statement goes further than I intended when I mentioned an "agenda", I apologize, but please note that I did not include this verbiage in my edit of the article itself. ] (]) 03:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::Her lack of directly referencing the News Corp donation might be because of the fact that she made that statement during the feud against Fox News.
	::::Thanks for the clarification. My position continues to be that labeling critics is generally a Bad Thing(tm); it can lead to the unwanted influence of editorial opinions being reflected in the article -- I just think that the best way to balance articles is to add other reliably sourced viewpoints instead of (proper or improper) labeling of critics at every opportunity. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
			:::::"I can't provide links since not everything is yet on the internet (or at least, not freely available on the internet). While I hold your demands for ever-increasing "notability" of critics is inconsistent ] and ], I believe we have now met even your standard."
	== Just wondering... ==
			:::::You have not provided a single other person aside from Howard Kurtz who I question has said the things you claim he has said. If it's on a pay for site, then why don't you cut and paste the article onto your talkpage or mine. As for other places like Deutsche Press-Agentur, how are you accessing those? Do you order a subscription to Deutsche Press-Agentur.] (]) 22:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::I was reading Kurtz's quote off of a transcript of "Reliable Sources" on CNN, August 22, 2010. I got Anita Dunn's comment from NPR's All Things Considered transcript from August 18, 2010. It seemed from the transcript that they were including it as relevant to this discussion. However it would appear that they copied it in from a previous interview, which I apologize for the confusion.
	Why one MMFA and HP suddenly qualify as big ticket news items? The different incidents could be explained as honest mistakes and really HP and MMFA aren't good indicators of notability. ] (]) 05:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::::Kurtz, I should note, is the host of Reliable Sources and specifically discussed the donation from the final commercial break to the end of the show (with two other mentions of other media events, both less than a paragraph of text). I have a University subscription to a full text news service which provides searchable full text of news around the world. I can not cut and paste any significant amount of text from a source under copyright--to your talk page or this one. Copyrights are, I'm afraid, non-negotiable.
	:The "mistakes" seem to consistently favor Republicans. Mistakes would happen in equal frequency in both directions. Can you find any examples of a scandal prone Democrats being mislabeled as a Republican? The list included in the article is only a partial list. Here are some others - http://intershame.com/on/Fox_News/?d=123. In terms of notability, just because the source is MMFA or HP doesn't mean it isn't notable. If you Google each event, you'll find that there were many opinion pieces that referred to each one. ] (]) 12:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
			::::::I am still astonished you would take the more than 30 references I provided and dismiss all of them for one reason or another. I think, in light of those extensive references, Kurtz is a voice in a chorus. Moreover, you seem to insist that he hold a particular viewpoint to include any discussion in the text. This is absurd. You recognize him as a notable media commentator making comments on the topic. Whatever his viewpoint, it is clearly a topic of national discussion. --] (]) 23:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	::No, but coverage from other sources that aren't there just to criticize Fox News (like MMFA) or from a liberal blog (HP) would establish that these were genuine controversies. And your argument mistakes burden of evidence. Can you cite an example where this "controversy" made it into the mainstream media? Most of the places I noticed were simple blogs quoting intershame, hardly mainstream coverage. ] (]) 21:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::You make a fair point about not finding it in the mainstream media. I'll concede on notability. ] (]) 22:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Fox News has an obvious ideological slant on stories they choose to cover, in some cases promote, the conservative "fact checkers" they use, and the slant within the stories. How is Fox News considered legitimate but Huffington Post accused of ideological slant? Just wondering... <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Please see related discussion at ]. '''~a''' (] • ] • ]) 18:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
			"''Whatever his viewpoint, it is clearly a topic of national discussion.''"
	:Regarding "not finding it in the mainstream media"... MSNBC, at the very least, has extensively covered the four video mistakes in the past few weeks. I am pretty sure the Daily Show has as well, and I doubt they're the ''only'' ones. But, either way, people seem to be under the mistaken impression that ] requires ''sources'' be without ideology, which is a complete misunderstanding of policy -- ] only requires that '''Misplaced Pages''' present issues neutrally (not that sources be neutral). See the detailed explanation . //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 19:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
			No.
	::I didn't say that sources had to be w/o an ideology, but if they tend to blow minor incidents out of proportion (even if done in a factually accurate manner) then the ] of their content that is being added comes into question. ] (]) 20:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
			"I am still astonished you would take the more than 30 references I provided and dismiss all of them for one reason or another."
	:::With no disrespect intended, your categorization of incidents as "minor" or not is not really relevant -- that the criticism has been picked up (or acknowledged separately) in mainstream media is plenty sufficient indication that the incident has weight. Honestly, Soxwon, I don't think you're going to be able to sell this as some sort of insignificant criticism by ] groups carrying no ] -- MMFA/FAIR/etc. are already considered reliable sources with regards to media issues (as noted at the RSN noticeboard request you made); broadcast sourcing on MSNBC (and likely elsewhere, if we bother to hunt it down) is just the final nail in that coffin. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
			I have consistently asked for more critics, not more sources reporting on something that two members of the DNC said. I certainly was not looking for an editorial from the ].
	::::This discussion was specifically focused on the mislabeling of scandal prone Democrats as Republicans. SoxWon started the discussion when I restored the edit he removed. The video incidents are still in the article and were widely reported in the mainstream media. I cannot find any examples, though, of the mainstream media covering the incorrect party attribution. If anyone else can, please include the reference. ] (]) 03:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
			"I can not cut and paste any significant amount of text from a source under copyright--to your talk page or this one."
			Then post the quotes.
			"Moreover, you seem to insist that he hold a particular viewpoint to include any discussion in the text. This is absurd."
			By a particular viewpoint I simply ask that he hold a viewpoint, and that you can provide a quote of him saying that.(don't need the source, just the relevant paragraph)] (]) 23:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			===Considerations regarding coverage===
	Ucanlookitup, you just opened a can of worms. A minor mislabel is nothing compared to the rest of the media's blatant lack of labels whenever a Democrat has a scandal. ] (]) 08:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
			Below are some things to take into consideration regarding the coverage.
			*A major concern for editors against the inclusion regards the lack of continued coverage, so additional weight will be given to articles that are provided which followed up on the story on later dates.
			*It should be noted that per ]:
			::"It is wise to delay writing an article about a breaking news event until the significance of the event is clearer as early coverage may lack perspective and be subject to ''factual errors''."(emphasis mine)<br><br>
			Many breaking news stories falsely reported that Fox did not report on the News Corp donation when they broke it first, another example of why lasting coverage and follow up articles are more valued than the immediate coverage.
			''Example'':
			:"Fox News (and The Times) silent on News Corp 's $1m Republican party donation" Guardian Unlimited, August 20, 2010.
			*General guidelines of Misplaced Pages state that news sources that are either local, obscure, out of the mainstream, internet only or self-published are not generally used for proving notability. From ]:
	== One editorial ==
			::''Notability should be demonstrated using reliable sources according to Misplaced Pages guidelines (not policy). Reliable sources generally include mainstream news media and major academic journals, and exclude self-published sources, particularly when self-published on the internet. The foundation of this theory is that such sources "exercise some form of editorial control."''
			New sources that seem to fit this description will generally recieve less weight than those of the mainstream. These sources include:<br>#Advertising Age
			#Dallas Morning News
			#The Star-Ledger
			#Daily Astorian
			#Charleston Gazette
			#St. Paul Pioneer Press
			#Lexington Herald-Leader
			#The Journal Gazette
			#Seattle Post-Intelligencer
			#Seattle Times
			#UPI News Service
			#Deutsche Press-Agentur
			#Buffalo News
			#Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
			#Orlando Sentinel
			#Houston Chronicle
			#Charleston Daily Mail
			#The Bulletin
			Feel free to place additional concerns.] (]) 22:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	Three things, one I've edited the lede to be more neutral and to provide both sides of the coin. Second, why is a second accusation needed? Third, why pick one out of some random newsweek when there are plenty more to choose from? ] (]) 18:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
			::I'd like to request you either start a new section or post to the bottom. But seriously, major metropolitan dailies are pretty clearly mainstream news. --] (]) 23:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::The Chicago Tribune, the Washington Times, The LA Times, sure. The Seattle Times? Definitely not nearly as much weight should be given to them.] (]) 05:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:The ] guideline is usually geared toward avoiding creating articles where it is unclear of the notability of the subject. Here it has been reported by many independent journalists, and has been discussed by many editorialists (additionally, we're not creating a new article). It's notability is secure; I would suggest there's even enough coverage for a separate article, were someone interested in writing one. The suggestion that there's insufficient evidence of the notability of this controversy, when it has been covered in depth by multiple national and international organizations, boggles my mind. --] (]) 22:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	:Your new addition implies that FNC's claim that "reporters are neutral" is fact -- if we're going to bend over backwards to explain that assertion, the grammar needs some cleanup (no complex appositives) and we must mention that FNC's claims have been challenged by critics. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Soxwon, The response from Fox is that their commentators are right-wing but their anchors are neutral. This is blatantly false as they use the opinion shows as springboards for their "news" portion ("Critics say..." or "Some people say...") and some of the most eggregious and downright shocking comments came from the so-called "anchors" during the "news" portion of 9-4 and 6-8. (check out a compilation of clips for just this year: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-29-2009/for-fox-sake-) The Fox response doesn't address that primary criticism. I agree with Blaxthos that it should be mentioned that Fox's assertion should be challenged by critics. I do, however, appreciate your attempt. <small><span class="autosigned">] (]) 22:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)</small>
			::It should be noted that most of the sources listed above specifically focus on News Corp and Murdoch in their title. This reinforces my argument that this is really about News Corp and Murdoch. It is not a controversy that FNC had anything to do with, and I have yet to see a rational reason why this is an notable controversy that FNC was involved in. ] (]) 23:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
	:::::I don't understand, how is it stated as fact when it begins: ''Fox News has publicly denied such charges, '''stating that''''' ] (]) 22:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
			It is ironic you don't think that a guideline which suggest using later articles instead of breaking news because they might contain factual errors when multiple editors here have suggested that Fox's lack of reporting on the issue is evidence of it's bias despite the fact they reported on it first with one editor even saying:
	::::::It's the intermediary deflective appositive that makes such unclear, but I think you're missing the larger point addressed by SemDem and me. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
			:"Although FNC did not make the donation directly, their parent corporation did, and they apparently failed to report on it while the rest of the mass media did. It seems like *that* is the controversy, not the donation itself."
	:::::::I'll wait for others to comment but I feel that the extra disagreement would be unecessary as we've already stated that the critics find the whole thing biased. ] (]) 01:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
			The fact that you would suggest this warrants its own article suggests to me that you are a fundamentalist inclusionist, who both does not understand ], ], ], and ], but perhaps has not even read any of the arguments against inclusion which has stated many times that policy does not dictate notability by amount of news coverage.
			Claiming your mind is boggled by this discussion doesn't make it seem that you understand what this discussion is about.] (]) 23:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			:My mind is boggled because I have a hard time following your argument. Now you are claiming that we can't cover something which happened recently, as a rule? I can assure you, when something is unclear if it will received much media attention or not, we might tend toward caution in creating a new article. However when something has already received substantive attention, it is part of the historical and public record. It should be included. ] doesn't really apply. --] (]) 23:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Here's a history of our discussion
			::I said this:"Bring in notable critics if you want to proclaim that more critics are against this."
			::Then you said this"Now you are claiming that we can't cover something which happened recently, as a rule?"
			::Then this"I take strong exception to these bizarre ideas you're promulgating, that we can't discuss criticism unless it originates with people we like"
			::Then this"I totally reject your standard that criticism needs to have been made by people you like."
			::I cited ] to note that "early coverage may lack perspective and be ''subject to factual errors.''" and then pointed out the errors early reports made in reporting that Fox hadn't reported on the news.
	== Sources ==
			::You responded:"] doesn't really apply."
			::You said "My mind is boggled because I have a hard time following your argument.", and to repeat, it is: You need notable people or groups levying a criticism to make it notable. Notable does not equal non-partisan, I have not said that, but have suggested non-partisan sources would help you're argument for notability as they would have more weight to them.] (]) 05:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	I have argued that most legitimate news organizations seperate their news and opinions. It is very difficult to find criticism of Fox News outside of opinion pieces, because most news orgs. follow the rules. However, FoxNews infuses opinion with fact. Especially since Fox is the subject of this article, I don't see why it is acceptable to use Fox News as a source, but not allow opinions from other legitimate news sources. Secondly, why allow Fox News but not Huffington Post? HP uses professional writers and also has a seperate news site and weblog. If we can't quote HP, then we shouldn't quote FN either.] (]) 22:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
	:That is your opinion and there would be a substantial number of people who would disagree with you (while the number 1 viewer rating doesn't mean much, it certainly means a large portion of the population views them for news). ] (]) 22:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
	::First of all, no it doesn't. Cable News doesn't even come close to Broadcast News (ABC, NBC, CBS) in both the nightly news, morning shows, and specialty shows like 60 minutes. But equating viewership with unbiased credibility is ridiculous. DailyKos is the Number One blog in the nation with millions of registered users, but I am certain you would be irritated if I used that as an unbiased reference. Fox was rated number one against CNN and MSNBC because how the ratings are collected--most people get their news at short bursts at a time, watching for an hour or so. Fox News patrons tend to leave that channel on their homes all the time, non-stop. This doesn't mean that most people view it as "news". In fact, the vast majority don't trust Fox News, just GOPers and mainly in the South. By the way, Huffington Post ranks way ahead of Fox on the internet with 11,100,000 visitors...in fact, Fox News itself doesn't come close to that many viewers. So again, if your arguement is purely population, then why not have Huffington Post quoted and not just Fox News?] (]) 01:30, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::First of all, I'm not sure what the disagreement is over. Fox News should be allowed to present their side of things if all major viewpoints are to be present. Second, HP is good for editorial and significant minority opinion, but really we don't want hundreds of op-eds and articles crowding the lede. Third, again, this is your opinion being stated (except for the number of visitors to HP, which I could argue is far less reliable than nielson ratings). ] (]) 02:51, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Soxwon, let's put your statement that HP and its readers are of a "''significant minority opinion''" to bed -- check out the ] . Be sure to . Please note that huffingtonpost actually ranks #40 in the nation (FNC is #42). Also note that HP's reach (and other metrics) consistently outperform FNC. While you may believe that those with whom you do not ideologically agree are a "significant minority", evidence doesn't support your position. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:04, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::It's has been from the start a ''liberal'' site much like Drudge (though of the opposite viewpoint). While sources need not be non-partisan, if they are partisan, they represent their side of the political spectrum, in this case liberal, a significant minority. ] (]) 03:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Since you define the media as "liberal", then you must concede that liberals dominate the news programs. Liberals definitely dominate the blogoshpere, not to mention the legislative and executive branch of government, so could you please define what the heck you mean by "significant minority"? Does that mean that conservatives are "really insignificant minority"? What is the majority?] (]) 16:51, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Liberals dominate the executive branch, academia, the media and blogosphere. However, they are absolutely a significant minority in American Electorate, and they're still a minority in the legislative branch. Why do you think Obama is having so much difficulty installing a ] health care system, or a ] on everything that uses energy as a means of production or transportation? This country would also be a very different place if liberals controlled the judicial branch. ] (]) 18:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Soxwon's labeling of liberals as a "significant minority" is actually pretty clever. It is a true but entirely meaningless statement. Bear with me a moment and visualize a bell curve representing people's political believes. Liberals are, naturally, represented by the section to the left of the mean and conservatives by the section to the right. Now draw a line where ever you think the cut off is between "liberal" and "moderate" or "conservative" and "moderate". By necessity, both the liberals and conservatives will represent less than 50% of the population. So both can be described as a significant minority. It is like saying "half the population is below average intelligence". It's provocative, but doesn't really say anything significant. ] (]) 01:33, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Are you going somewhere with this? ] (]) 01:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::Not really, and I didn't mean to offend. I just think the discussion of which group is bigger is a dead end. It all depends on where you draw the line. ] (]) 01:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::Blaxthos and the IP turned it into the viewership sausage fest. I simply pointed out the fact that the HP was a liberal blog and thus represented a viewpoint rather an indicator noteworthy inclusion. ] (]) 01:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Viewership sausagefest? Who is the one who made this statement: "(while the number 1 viewer rating doesn't mean much, it certainly means a large portion of the population views them for news)". That was your whole justification for allowing Fox News as a resource. We were simply pointing out that Huffington Post beats Fox News in patrons in any indicator. Fox News is a conservative media outlet that clearly chooses their stories and slants their coverage to the conservative viewpoint..if you are going to have Fox News as a source of reference, then you have to allow Huffington Post. PS-Calling it liberal is your opinion.] (]) 02:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	First of all, I'd appreciate you stop putting words in my mouth. I said and I quote <blockquote>That is your opinion and there would be a substantial number of people who would disagree with you (while the number 1 viewer rating doesn't mean much, it certainly means a large portion of the population views them for news).</blockquote> '''What I was referring to were these statements by you that seemed to imply that Fox was not a legitimate news source: ''I have argued that most legitimate news organizations seperate their news and opinions. It is very difficult to find criticism of Fox News outside of opinion pieces, because most news orgs. follow the rules. However, FoxNews infuses opinion with fact.''''' Now then, as for the rest of your comment.
	'''That was your whole justification for allowing Fox News as a resource. We were simply pointing out that Huffington Post beats Fox News in patrons in any indicator.'''
	Really? Where did I say that? Again, please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
			@TeaDrinker ''You're back to claiming criticism doesn't count if it comes from a partisan source.''<br>
	'''Fox News is a conservative media outlet that clearly chooses their stories and slants their coverage to the conservative viewpoint..if you are going to have Fox News as a source of reference, then you have to allow Huffington Post. PS-Calling it liberal is your opinion.'''
			That mis-represents my position. Here's my quote...
	Anyone else notice the double standard there? ''Fox News is a conservative media outlet...''' '''PS-Calling it liberal is your opinion.''' Apparently when you label something it's fact but when I do it's my opinion (oh and ). I maintain that we should a broad statement that summarizes the complaints against FNC followed by their denial like is listed now. Why do we need another source (and one from a partisan source like the HP instead of a more ])?{{unsigned|Soxwon}}
			:Is there content in there suggesting something more than run-of-the-mill partisan sniping at Fox News by proxy?
	:Soxwon, the facts are no different here than they were during your ]. To quote the last post (from an uninvolved editor): ''It is rather ridiculous to claim that Huffington Post is not mainstream.'' Let's stop pretending that the Huffington Post doesn't carry enough weight for mention <s>in the article</s> -- it's absolutely absurd that you're continuing to push that even after RSN said such. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 03:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
			That's the question that this RfC is addressing. Is this "criticism" recognized by reliable sourcing as something more substantive than opportunistic partisan Fox News sniping at a level that would make it relevant for consideration as a "Fox News Controversy"? Please show me some cites (not just articles) that you purport will make that case. What criteria define a "criticism" as opposed to a "controversy" and how is that reflected in the citations that will make that case?
	::Again, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I have made it clear that what I was referring to was the LEDE. I was not discussing banning HP from the body but the lede, two very different matters. If you two could kindly limit your comments to what I actually said we might accomplish a lot more. ] (]) 04:53, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::To quote you, Soxwon (emphasis added): <blockquote>While sources need not be non-partisan, if they are partisan, they represent their side of the political spectrum, in this case liberal, '''a significant minority'''.</blockquote>Several times you've either implied our outright stated that you think that liberals are "a significant minority" and you've repeatedly questioned the weight given to liberal viewpoints (always implying that they are given more weight than they deserve). You're flat out wrong on the "significant minority" comments, and you've been rebuked in every place you've tried to assert those absurd statements. It's time to give up that ghost. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 12:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::Yes, I've been rebuked by you, everyone else admits it's a case-by-case basis which I am advocating. Now then, if you could please explain why we need to further editorialize the lede we can move forward. You and Semdem are really making a mountain out of a molehill and I'm getting rather sick of it. ] (]) 00:48, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Over the past few weeks you've repeatedly asserted that liberal viewpoints are a "significant minority" and that you don't think such viewpoints carry weight, to which others have unquestionably stated that isn't the case. I haven't said a thing about editorializing in the introduction here; I've simply pointed out that your assertions are patently false, and that your repeating of those false statements ''ad infinitum'' makes it appear that you're not arguing in good faith. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 02:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::No, liberal viewpoints ''on their own'' '''may or may not''' warrant coverage. The lead is what I'm focusing on. This whole discussion has been about why the lede is fine the way it is. ] (]) 02:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
	::::::::Agreed. The lede, for all the reasons stated above and for all the reasons already argued ''ad nauseum'' is fine. ] (]) 16:03, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::If Soxwon's formulation is based upon his repeated stated rationale that "liberal viewpoints are a significant minority", his repeated insistence that they aren't "weighty enough", and his misunderstanding of policy that "sources must be neutral", then I can't agree with a premise based on that rationale. Both of those generalizations have been repeatedly rebuked here and at ]. To be perfectly clear, I'm not discussing a singular micro-issue of this-word-or-that, I'm pointing out that his whole rationale is (1) factually incorrect, and (2) solidly rebuked by Misplaced Pages policy and by Misplaced Pages noticeboard findings. His fundamental misunderstanding of those key points may be a factor in a discussion of a singular issue, but from a macro view they indicate a systemic problem that has and will continue to resurface. I am attempting to help enlighten him to these facts so that we can avoid future ''ad infinitum'' discussions based on his misunderstandings. I hope this helped clarify. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 20:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
	:::::::::::They can be weighty enough based on any given situation, hence "case-by-case." The "sources must be neutral" argument has been your argument alone. Mine has been based on the idea that sources represent viewpoints and due weight should be given to each viewpoint. Please stop saying I've been "rebuked" when I clearly have been supported on the "case-by-case" point. ] (]) 04:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
			I've already provided a citation from the Washington Post that appears to rebut your contention. Another rebuttal indicy would be the disappearance of this story from active news coverage. Is any news source still expressing an interest in it? ] (]) 00:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	===Proposed revisions to the lede===
			:Which policy or guideline is it that prescribes measuring "active news coverage"? I'm interested in knowing what P/G's recommend is a suitable amount of time. As far as I'm aware, the governing policies deal with the number of reliable sources, not for how long it was in the newspapers... //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	I personally like the lead. It's simple, to the point without too many footnotes. The article provides the perspective people want, and need. If someone wants to change the lede, let's get it done. I see many circular arguments. Why not use our time to improve the article, specifically the lede? ] (]) 04:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
			:::''Which policy or guideline is it that prescribes measuring "active news coverage"?''
	== Video games? ==
			:::I suppose that might be relevant were this a discussion on actual content composition. It isn't. It's an RfC on whether or not this issue might be legitimately identifiable as a "Fox News Controversy". There is no WP P/G that precludes consideration of anything in that regard. The relative shelf-life, political affiliation, depth and breadth of reliable sourcing that support tying "Fox News" journalistic integrity to this "criticism" are all germane indicies for consideration in this RfC. ] (]) 13:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::An appropriate consideration and worth discussion. However, I've responded to TeaDrinker above and I'm quite curious what those who advocate for inclusion think of that Washington Post blog entry I cited. To be quite honest, I've not done much looking around since I read that but I thought it quite pointedly addressed issues we're debating here. ] (]) 00:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	Ah! There's so many topics to read. I was hoping to read on what makes FOX News one of the top mortal enemies of the video game community, second only to a handfull of politicians & lawyers in various countries. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			:::Can you repost the link? There's at least three references to story from the Washington Post proper, but I don't know the blog source you're referring to. I am also curious about your answer to Blaxthos's question. --] (]) 00:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Here it is again...(emphasis mine - a short observation following)
	== Slogan controversy and "''Outfoxed''" ==
			:::::'''Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP'''
			:::::
			:::::News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet '''for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced'''," and '''Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going'''. But in a general sense, '''other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim''' that it's a legit news outlet, so it's '''anbody's guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.'''
			:::::UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above '''I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox''', not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.
			::::''...anbody's (sic) guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.''
	There appears to be very little or no mention of Fox's "Fair and Balanced" slogan controversy, although this slogan has been widely criticized. Doesn't this issue merit more discussion in the article?
			::::If this story doesn't have substance enough to satisfy a probably sympathetic media observer that there's some "there there", how does it get elevated in Misplaced Pages to the level of a "Fox News Controversy"? ] (]) 01:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::That's why it's only worth a sentence. But, it's also worth a sentence because Fox News is being criticized for its parent giving ''"one of the biggest ever"'' (). ] (]) 02:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Assuming you are refering to the following...
			:::::::The contribution from Mr. Murdoch’s News Corporation, which owns Fox News, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Post and other news outlets, is one of the biggest ever given by a media organization, campaign finance experts said.
			::::::...that looks like rather benign reportage to me. Where is it you see the "criticism"? ] (]) 03:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::The criticism is from other sources, and I'm not saying we should ] these sources. I was providing an alternate view to the ''"this is just a ] and doesn't belong here"'' (paraphrased) argument. That is, if this was just a typical news story, then I would agree it doesn't belong. However, since this is one of the biggest donations ever, we shouldn't dismiss the criticism as typical news. ] (]) 16:47, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			To Blax's concerns about need ongoing coverage:
			It's a very simple policy that I've mentioned multiple times but I suppose haven't linked you to, it's called ].
			The opening line reads "The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance."
			"That's why it's only worth a sentence. But, it's also worth a sentence because Fox News is being criticized for its parent giving ''"one of the biggest ever"''"
			So the criticism is barely notable, but the donation because it is notable makes the criticism notable enough. So by your reasoning, if having a hangnail is not notable, but Lady Gaga is notable, so then Lady Gaga having a hangnail is notable.] (]) 04:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Uh huh. So you are blatantly ignoring policy, which is ] (emphasis in original): <blockquote>The notability guidelines are only used to determine whether a topic can have its own '''separate article''' on Misplaced Pages and do '''not''' govern article content. The question of content coverage within a given page is governed by the principle of ] and other ].</blockquote>Could we please stop making things up, or trying to justify positions based on irrelevant policies and invented interpretations? Thanks! //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 11:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Uh, Blax, you're in the wrong argument.
	Also, Robert Greenwald's 2004 documentary '']'' is hardly mentioned or referenced in the article, despite being a key player in the Fox News coverage balance and bias debate. Perhaps it and its assertions should be further explored in this article, particularly in concert with the slogan controversy.
			::You said "''Which policy or guideline is it that prescribes measuring "active news coverage"?''"
			::Then I said "''...it's called ]. The opening line reads "The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance.''"
			::To which you responded "Uh huh. So you are blatantly ignoring policy, which is ] (emphasis in original): <blockquote>The notability guidelines are only used to determine whether a topic can have its own '''separate article''' on Misplaced Pages and do '''not''' govern article content. The question of content coverage within a given page is governed by the principle of ] and other ].</blockquote>Could we please stop making things up, or trying to justify positions based on irrelevant policies and invented interpretations? Thanks!"
			::If you notice, the talk was on continued coverage and discussing the importance of continuing coverage to show notability. ]. Please join in on the current discussion now of whether the notability of the News Corp donation signifies notability of the criticism of the News Corp donation down below.] (]) 18:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	] (]) 19:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
	:No. --] ] 20:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
	::Actually, yes, this topic does merit more discussion, and this topic has been discussed in reliable, scholarly sources. ] (]) 07:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
			@TeaDrinker (or anyone)
	Personally, a documentary by Media Matter for America, a company much more liberally biased than FNC is conservatively biased, is not worth more discussion. Outside of Beck, O'Reilly (sometimes,) and Hannity, FNC is mostly fair and balanced. ] (]) 08:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
			I have not yet voted on this RfC. Among other considerations, I have asked for specific citations that might argue for elevation of this suggested content from criticism-du-jour of Fox News via News Corp proxy to actual "Fox News Controversy" level but few, if any, actual citations (beyond article lists) have been offered. Somewhere above TeaDrinker suggested a Howard Kurtz commentary as particularly germane in making a case for inclusion. I overlooked that discussion earlier as the thread had become just too rancorous. If Howard Kurtz (or something else) is deemed to be representative, how 'bout citing them again here for examination? ] (]) 12:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:"''The criticism is from other sources, and I'm not saying we should synthesize these sources. I was providing an alternate view to the "this is just a typical news story and doesn't belong here" (paraphrased) argument. That is, if this was just a typical news story, then I would agree it doesn't belong. However, since this is one of the biggest donations ever, we shouldn't dismiss the criticism as typical news.''"
	== Title ==
			Arguing the criticism is notable enough for the criticism article because the donation is notable does not show notability of the criticism. If a few Democrats believed that the existence of a Chinese ] between the Earth and Mars revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit disproved Christian doctrine would that be notable enough for the ] article? My point being you need to have more than just a few people making a criticism for the criticism to be notable, no matter how notable finding a Chinese teapot orbiting in space would be(especially after talking about it for so long), it wouldn't make their criticism of Christianity notable.] (]) 18:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:The ] is not ''"just a few people"''. They are run by notable democratic leaders (i.e. ], ], ], ], ], and ]) and the committee governs the ]. This is a national organization that is recognized throughout the world. Please don't try to down play their significance. I'm sure the DNC criticizes their opponents every day, but it's not every day News Corp. gives $1 million to their opponent, and, in turn, they question Fox News' objectivity over it. ] (]) 20:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	The current title is not appropriate for this article. This is not an article about the journalist standards or ethics regarding FNC. It is an article largely of the complaints by others about FNC. Controversies may not be a good name, but this is clearly misleading. ] (]) 02:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	:There also doesn't appear to be any recent discussion or concensus for this change. I am changing back and suggest we discuss a proper title. ] (]) 02:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	::Not sure how to return name. Anyone else know? ] (]) 02:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	:::Frankly it appears to be an attack article and I'm not sure it would (or should) survive an AfD. ] (]) 03:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	::::Um, it already '''has''' survived an AFD, Jake. As far as title goes, how about '''Criticism of Fox News'''? ] (]) 21:35, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
	:::::There was absolutely no discussion of this move and I am going to revert. ] (]) 03:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
			'''NOTE:''' The ] report filed by Blaxthos against Wikiposter0123, relative to the "restarting" of this RfC, has aged off the notice board and been archived. Although it wasn't officially closed, it was there for three days and no administrator action was taken. Regardless of one's position on this, I think it's clear the ANI report is a dead issue. This RfC continues... with drama. — ] (]) 19:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
	== $1 Million GOP Donation ==
	Fox parent News Corps donated $1 Million dollars to the Republican Governor's Association. Many news outlets have covered this controversy, but Fox News hasn't mentioned it once. This has gotten a lot of press lately...any reason its not on this section?] (]) 01:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Regarding the request for continuing coverage, can someone point me to the coverage in the past month of the ]? Obviously there's less coverage now of certain events than when they were happening, but that does not alter their historical importance. These discussions about whether something covered by nearly every major news outlet are "notable" are simply ridiculous. --] (]) 20:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			'''Question:''' Does anyone have an objection if I restructure this page to have all the RfC sections fall under the main RfC header with the banner, in the same order they are in now? That way they all will be subsections of the RfC. It currently looks like there are multiple independent threads, when all but the question about the mosque are continuations of the RfC. This is a housekeeping function, not a change in any content. The RfC is a wall of text and is hard enough to follow without structural and page flow impediments. Also, once this is over and needs archiving, it can be archived as one thread without pieces left over — ] (]) 20:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)————UPDATE: Done. ] (]) 22:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Lol, I was actually going to do that, but became too lazy. I think we might also want to summarize both sides and maybe put the summary at the top.
			:"These discussions about whether something covered by nearly every major news outlet are "notable" are simply ridiculous. "
			:Then do you think everything covered by nearly every major news outlet is notable? As for the ], of course there isn't continued coverage in the news, but you'll find it in history books and historical political journals. That's where it's being covered(and if it isn't the article should be scrapped form Misplaced Pages).
			:"The ] is not ''"just a few people"''. They are run by notable democratic leaders (i.e. ], ], ], ], ], and ])"
			:Great, have them criticize it. The DNC's central focus is on "campaign and political activity in support of Democratic Party candidates, and not on public policy.", and they do not speak for every Democrat holding office. Many news stories mostly focused on:
			#The donation's size
			#Fox not covering the story(although it did)
			#The over-the-top request by a DNC member for Fox to put up a disclaimer
			:There has been no coverage though which has lead weight to the notability of the criticism.] (]) 20:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::It's obvious this guy is making shit up as he goes along, and I don't see how there is any chance he is here in good faith -- he's been wrong on every single policy point, and he's ] and/or derail this RFC -- need I list them all? A small sample, for your consideration: "Restarting" the "]", believing it is a "vote", trying to ], bypassing the actual content policies in favor of his own personal analysis, moving the goalpost when challenged, ''et cetera ad infinitum''. He refuses to listen to anyone, and I'm pretty well convinced he doesn't even read our policies. I posit this is nothing short of disruptive behavior -- anyone else in favor of proposing a topic ban of Wikiposter? If he wants to productively contribute to this encyclopedia, I suggest he should spend some time editing non-contentious articles until he has demonstrated he is both willing to read and abide by policy, and able to honestly consider the opinions of others. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 21:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::<strike>I'm tired of dealing with this. Blax, consider this your warning before I take your constant disruptive and baseless attacks on me to ANI, and leave this discussion here to people that want to discuss changes to the article.</strike>] (]) 22:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Edit:I apologize to those here trying to establish consensus through discussion and working towards furthering that discussion. I will strike out my comment as a gesture of good faith, and hope this discussion can turn to discussion on the information's inclusion/exclusion.] (]) 19:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			This is a content disagreement about a very contentious issue, not a debate about editor behavior. Filing reports is not particularly helpful in getting to consensus, rather it deepens the divide. Disclosing my position: I'm in favor of including the content, and will cast my !vote, and make my arguments, but I won't take it personally if the arguments are disagreed with. More importantly, regardless of what happens to this content, it won't be the end of the world as we know it (or of Misplaced Pages, or even of the article). The resources expended on this issue is staggering, including about 34,000 words and 240 KBytes so far in the RfC. The tone of this RfC is a much bigger problem than this particular content could possibly be, and the fallout will affect collaborative efforts between participants even after the battle is over. Please lets discuss content, not each other, and please lets try to assume more AFG and remember why we are here. Thank you. — ] (]) 04:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			: And its been Blaxthos tone that has been the worst. Hes used foul language and accused myself and Wikiposter of trying to "corrupt the process". Yet it is the inclusion camp that tried to rig this RFC with the post on Daily Kos which has without doubt had a huge impact on the whole thing. ] (]) 10:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			The impetus behind this alleged "Fox News Controversy" is becoming rather evident...as is major media indifference. From "Mediate"...
			:But new allegations have come to light that question whether Media Matters was serious about running the ad as opposed to just generating attention – and possibly charitable donations – for itself.
			And from MMfA itself, Eric Boehlert bemoans the apparent indifference of the White House Correspondent's Association to the alleged "controversy"...
			:Does the association think it's fine and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it?
			Inclusionists might benefit from more citing and less rhetoric. ] (]) 13:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Actually at this point I think both sides could use less rhetoric and more consensus building. Yes, the DailyKos diary piece sent many here in an attempt to votestack. And yes this debate is a battleground. But this RfC is corrupted only if you want it to be. It seems to have become more about proving the other side wrong, and about winning, rather than deciding together if this piece of content belongs in the article or not. The information about the donation is not a ] relative to Fox News, so at the end of the day, it won't make a hell of a lot of difference either way. At this point the content in the article at dispute is 13 words long, yet this discussion is now more than 35K words long. See how disproportionate that is? It's just not worth this battleground. Get over who's fault it is, and finish the debate. The position of both camps is crystal clear, and everything we all need to know about the content is already in the RfC. Start proposing wording, since all that remains is to come to consensus on a version (or none), something that could be done in a very short time. If y'all really want to, that is. — ] (]) 15:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			:: If we have to continue to mention the donation, we should also state that NewsCorp has donated funds to the democrats too. We should not make out like this one donation is a controversy when clearly only those organisations with an agenda see it as such and are trying to make it a bigger deal than it is. Ohh and this RFC has been corrupted, there is no "only corrupted if you want it to be". It has been corrupted, the evidence of this fact is very clear. ] (]) 15:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::''Actually at this point I think both sides could use less rhetoric and more consensus building...Start proposing wording, since all that remains is to come to consensus on a version (or none)''
			:::Your suggestion that the composition of consensus "wording" commence while, at the same time, noting that an "(or none)" option is, at this point, just as viable leaves me somewhat flummoxed. The purpose of the RfC is to solicit comments as to whether or not this content is appropriate for both identification and inclusion as a "Fox News Controversy". From the cites I've provided, I believe there's a valid argument to be made that this is now more a "Media Matters for America" controversy than a "Fox News Controversy". Does anyone seriously contest at this point that the "News Corp" donation (which is borderline "controversial" in and of itself) has been used as a proxy attack against FNC by hyper-partisan interests? As was noted early on in this discussion (not by me), is an anti-Fox News allegation/attack by a hyper-partisan entity now de facto elevated to "Fox News Controversy" worthy? Yikes. We might as well just turn this article into an RSS feed from the DNC and Media Matters. ] (]) 16:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::: Agreed i still do not accept there is a notable controversy involving Fox news channel and this donation, its just certain people and a couple of political organisations with an agenda who are suggesting anything. I do also still fear that if the result of this RFC is to keep the text in the article, it will be seen by those responsible for the "RFC rigging" that took place as a victory. I happen to think its a bad idea if we allow cheaters a victory, it will encourage lots more cheating in the future if it stays in. If it was not for the cheating it may have been easier to reach a compromise. Those who say the SPAs will simply be ignored at the end of the RFC fail to accept it has already had a huge impact on it. ] (]) 16:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			::We could say, ''"The Democratic National Committee, and head of the Democratic Governors Association, questioned Fox News' objectivity after parent company News Corporation donated $1 million to the RGA. In a press release, News Corporation stated that their donation has no bearing on their journalist."'' Or something similar. I think going beyond that, that is going into detail about New Corporation's donation history, would be unnecessary weight. As far as MMfA goes, I don't think enough mainstream sources have mentioned them to warrant their inclusion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seems the only mention of them is from a Washington Post opinion piece. ] (]) 19:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			::: No way. If this article is to continue to include this matter, it must mention the fact NewsCorp has donated large sums of money to the Democrats as well. To do otherwise would be totally against ]. ] (]) 19:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Edit conflict: You would need to change it to something more like this before I would start even considering inclusion:
			"The Democratic National Committee, and head of the Democratic Governors Association, questioned Fox News' objectivity after parent company News Corporation donated an impressive $1 million to the RGA calling Fox's reporting "partisan propaganda" and requesting Fox to have a disclaimer on their programs. In a press release, News Corporation stated that their donation has no bearing on their journalists, and that having also supported Democrats in the past, their decision to make such a large donation to the GOP was out of their belief that the GOP would be more friendly to business.<br>
			In response to the DNC's criticism the Washington Post reported that "But in a general sense, other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet," with media critic Howard Kurtz noting that the leader of the DNC, "Daschle, who has already put out a fundraising letter about the News Corp. contribution, is doing what he can to keep the story alive."
			By the way, I found this:
			Tobe Berkovitz, an associate professor of communication at Boston University. "This just reinforces for liberals how evil and manipulative Fox and Rupert Murdoch are. ''For the civilians out there, I don't think they're going to see this as particularly relevant or particularly important.''
			I still support not including this at all though and doubt my suggestion will be accepted by the inclusionists. The only way I feel to put this in giving due weight to the criticism is to balance it out by placing the commentary of others on the notability of the criticism, and that the resulting two paragraphs would be too much weight for this "controversy" in the article.] (]) 20:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Actually, you're not distinguishing between money given by ''employees'' and money given by the ''corporation'' -- those two concepts are <u>not</U> the same. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 20:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			::BritishWatcher, according to , News Corp. gave $0 to the DGA in 2009 and 2010. Or, are you saying we should mention donations not related to the criticism? ] (]) 01:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			I have two points which I'd like addressed by editors arguing in support of inclusion. I've raised these two points before, but I have not seen any direct responses to them by editors who support inclusion.
			#'''Inclusionists need to show that including the criticism of Fox News, which originated mainly from Democratic organizations, ''does not'' violate ] by giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint.''' If only Democratic organizations are criticizing Fox News for the donation by its parent company, isn't that a ''minority viewpoint'' per ]? Again, the ''majority viewpoint'' seems to be one of indifference: a.) most of the news sources cited on this page only report the criticisms, but do not weigh in themselves, and b.) In addition, no notable, independent persons or organizations have commented on the donation or its implications for Fox News. Inclusionists need to show that the criticism of Fox News is widespread, and not just originating from a vocal minority (i.e. the Democratic organizations who initiated the criticism.) If this cannot be shown, I believe that including the criticism of Fox News would violate ].
			#'''If criticism of Fox News over the donation originated from partisan organizations, would including their (inherently biased) criticism violate ]?''' Basically, the criticism that the NewsCorp donation affects the journalistic integrity of Fox News has not been backed up by any evidence, rather it has been simply asserted by various Democratic organizations. Therefore, including the criticism of Fox News would violate ] ''unless'' inclusionists also include the responses of NewsCorp and Fox News spokespeople into the final wording (if consensus is indeed reached on including it, which at the moment appears rather uncertain.)
			The first point is what caused me to change my mind about inclusion, so if an editor who supports inclusion can convincingly argue (on the basis of Misplaced Pages content policy) that including partisan criticism does not violate ], I will be open to supporting inclusion. If not, I still say '''exclude'''. The second point also must be addressed, but is focused more on satisfying ] ''if'' the consensus is to include. -] (]) 21:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			To further note the objectives of the of the proponents of this criticism I would like to point out that people promulgating this criticism are attempting to use it to generate fundraising revenue as suggested by Howard Kurts" Daschle, who has already put out a fundraising letter about the News Corp. contribution, is doing what he can to keep the story alive.".
			More evidence of the lack of a controversy.] (]) 22:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			To highlight the inanity of this so-called "controversy," here's the Media Research Council to put it into perspective:
			http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/08/27/lefties-upset-murdoch-donation-take-note-88-percent-network-donation
			And the debate of the rational ends here. ] (]) 22:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			:@BloodDoll, even obviously partisan criticism, even if baseless, can be notable. We have now several articles on ] and related topics, even though that is now the quintessential example of baseless partisan criticism (far higher level of importance, certainly, reflecting multiple article coverage). We cover notable (though totally baseless) claims from absolute loons, such ], or ] on a legally minor case, notable only for the press coverage of random internet satirists. There's no requirement that we have to find the criticism valid or originating from reputable sources, only that there is reliable coverage of the criticism of a sufficient magnitude to satisfy ]. In fact, ] and ] ''demand'' we not make judgement about the validity of the criticism, which includes judging criticism as unfit for inclusion because we're unhappy with the people making the argument. It is a simple rule: if it is widely discussed, it is included. I agree, notable positions on the controversy should be represented; Fox has made a statement which was widely quoted. That should be included. --] (]) 23:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Right, but your ] example really doesn't work. That was indeed a public controversy at the time - meaning many different people and organizations were weighing in on the merits of the attack on John Kerry, what its significance was for his political prospects, etc. etc. etc. Whereas here we have news sources ''simply reporting'' criticism from a number of Democratic organizations. We ''do not have'' a wide variety of people and organizations weighing in on this so-called controversy. -] (]) 01:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			"''It is a simple rule: if it is widely discussed, it is included. ''"<br>
			The rule I'm looking at(]) says: <br>
			"''While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion.''"<br><br>
			Thinking if something is widely discussed it should be included is against policy and doesn't make sense. What might be widely discussed by the news media is obviously going to be different from that in an encyclopedia. The two are just different mediums.
			Barack Obama conspiracy theories are notable because entire movements have formed around them. Get a movement forming around this then it will be notable.
			As for Beck v. Eiland Hall, that could possibly be deleted.] (]) 23:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Criticism is not news, though when it rises to a level of controversy it's often covered by the news (as here). //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			:: Some of us do not believe it has risen to a "level of controversy" needed to justify inclusion on this page. ] (]) 00:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			::: Blaxthos, that is a point that has been made before by the exclusionists here. It is not a "controversy" if 99% of the criticism comes from uniformly Democratic organizations. Controversy, to my mind, implies widespread public debate and discussion on a particular issue. On this issue, there is no widespread public debate and discussion - only Democratic organizations criticizing Fox News. That's why me and others have requested links to the same criticism from notable, independent persons or organizations ''to show'' there is a real controversy here - and not just an opportunistic, politically motivated attack on Fox News with not a shred of evidence. So far, those requests have been ignored, sidestepped, or misrepresented (intentionally or not, I don't know; I am AGF.) -] (]) 01:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			This discussion about a single statement for an incident that didn't last beyond one news cycle is rapidly approaching being twice as long as the article (139k for discussion, 82k for article). From what I've seen, we've reached a point where everyone keeps repeating the same arguments and talking past one another. Any suggestions for breaking deadlock and/or moving forward? ] (]) 02:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			:I do. I have provided 3 citations from sources suggesting that there is questionable substance to this allegation of a "Fox News Controversy". I invite any of the inclusionists to likewise provide 3 citations from reliable sources (other than those known for their partisan advocacy) which they purport supports their position that this is a "Fox News Controversy". Give me 3 unequivocal, legitimate source citations and I'll vote include. ] (]) 02:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			::As I have previously stated, this wall of text is over 100k. Could you please link those three sources again? ] (]) 02:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Sure...
			::::Greg Sargent, Washington Post "Plum Line" Blog...(emphasis mine except for lede)
			:::::'''Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP'''
			:::::
			:::::News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet '''for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced'''," and '''Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going'''. But in a general sense, '''other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim''' that it's a legit news outlet, so it's '''anbody's guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.'''
			:::::UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above '''I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox''', not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.
			::::From "Mediaite" (which cites Greg Sargent's blog as well)...
			:::::But new allegations have come to light that question whether Media Matters was serious about running the ad as opposed to just generating attention – and possibly charitable donations – for itself.
			::::From MMfA itself, Eric Boehlert bemoans the apparent indifference of the White House Correspondent's Association to the alleged "controversy"...
			:::::''Does the association think it's fine and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it?''
			::::] (]) 02:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::...and another for the list, Howard Kurtz on "Reliable Sources"...
			:::::''...there's no basis for arguing that the donations compromise Fox News more than the other networks.''
			:::::] (]) 04:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			:::::To make sure I understand what you saying. You're saying that since the Washington Post reported that no news organizations questioned Fox News, we should dismiss the fact that non-news organizations (i.e. DNC and DGA) questioned Fox News? Or, are you saying that the lack of continued coverage means we shouldn't include the material at all? ] (]) 16:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::: The fact there has been limited criticism just from groups with a political agenda and there has been a lack of continued coverage of this matter, both mean it does not belong in this article. ] (]) 19:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::Oh boy, more invented policies! One, there is no policy or guideline that says material "from groups with a political agenda" is not allowed. Two, there is no content policy that mandates "continued coverage" in sources (no, ]). Please stop making up policies and preaching them as if they're legitimate -- they aren't, and repeating them ''ad infinitum'' only makes you look like a ]. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::What part of ] do you not understand?
			::::::::, and what part of ] do you not understand?
			An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.
			::::::::, or ]
			Events are often considered to be notable if they act as a precedent or catalyst for something else. <br><br>
			What is the lasting effect of this? Where is the continued coverage? Is there anything that indicates that this was anything more than a fundraising effort by MediaMatters and the DNC?
			] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Wikiposter0123, the guidelines you keep quoting (those from ] is an extension of ], which is a guideline for article creation, whether or not a subject merits its own article. Not, content inclusion for existing articles. Please see ] for more information. ] (]) 22:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Didn't realize Event was an extension of Notability, I thought that objection was only referring to my once citing Notability. Can you go ahead and point me towards the content related policies?] (]) 22:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Edit: Weight is actually not related to Notability.] (]) 22:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Wikiposter, can you please tell us what you believe ] means? //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 22:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Wikiposter, don't be intimidated by the wikilawyering. A consideration of coverage breadth and duration is in no way precluded from an RfC consideration such as this by Wiki P&G. Any suggestion that what Misplaced Pages considers to be recommended guidance for article creation is illegitimate for consideration in an RfC applying to a section only is hogwash, pure and simple. ] (]) 23:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::Jake, is it your position that the notability guidelines are to be used to limit article content? //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 23:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Nope, my position is that notability guidelines are to be utilized, as stated, in a determination "whether a topic merits its own article." My position also is that the various rationales underlying the formulation of those guidelines are legitimate considerations (and can be quite illuminating, where relevant,) to any <u>RfC</u> addressing specific content.
			::::::However, as engaging as that debate might be, the proponents for inclusion haven't even been able to venture beyond ] with the provision of specific citations evidencing this "event" as a "Fox News Controversy". The offer still stands Blaxthos. Provide 3 citations (from other than known partisan sources) supporting the inclusionist contention and I, for one, will vote to include. ] (]) 00:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::And you accuse me of ]? I'm not sure why you think an RFC is a special case, as its primary purpose is to involve the community in forming ] regarding the specific application of policy. Given that the policy '''absolutely unequivocally''' states that it is "]", I recommend that we view the policy as written (on this very situation) rather than whatever you've invented. I can't state it any more clearly than Akerans does just below. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 00:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::There IS NO policy guidance (at least that I'm aware of) on what defines a "controversy" and I can't imagine that anyone would defend the notion that hyper-partisan "criticisms" are de facto "controversies" worthy of inclusion in an article so named. Where WP P&G might be vague or unstated, WP editors can and <u>SHOULD</u> look to whatever P&G might illuminate a particular issue.
			::::::::But that is a bridge that wouldn't even have to be crossed were citations provided under WP:V to support the case that this is a "Fox News Controversy". Where are they Blaxthos?
			::::::::Hell, there's an argument to be made that it isn't even a "News Corp Controversy". ] (]) 00:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Wikiposter0123, content falls within ] and ]. We know the information is verifiable. So, then it's a question of weight. Weight says, we "''treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject.''" As this article is about Fox News' media bias (amongst other things), adding more media bias is significant to the subject. Weight is then determined by prevalence in reliable sources. This news was released worldwide over the period of a day. That doesn't mean to exclude the information, rather it means don't devote too much space to it. ] (]) 00:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::''We know the information is verifiable.''
			::::On the contrary. Your <u>contention</u> is that the "information" (rather non-specific, no?) is verifiable. You will know the "information" is verifiable when it is verified via the provision of citations from reliable sourcing. Why are those citations not forthcoming? ] (]) 00:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::I posted more than 30 citations to ] demonstrating people were covering the controversy and many people had an opinion on it. I don't know what you are looking for, but I think we have passed any possible ] test. It is clear many people criticized News Corp's decision to donate. --] (]) 00:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::''I posted more than 30 citations...''
			::::::You posted more than 30 links to articles. Those are not citations. Please post 3 citations that you purport to represent reliable sourcing from non-partisan sources suggesting this is a "Fox News Controversy". ] (]) 01:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::::There he goes again, making up requirements like "non-partisan sources". ] governs source reliability, and has no such requirement. //] <small>( ] / ] )</small> 01:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::::The requirement (for the purposes of this RfC) is mandated by the lack of a definition for "Controversy". I'd suggest it to be logically preferable that the characterization of "controversy" is better left to non-partisan sources than to Media Matters or the DNC who would define it as whatever <s>we</s> they ] (]) 14:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC) say it is. ] (]) 01:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::::::It most assuredly is not. Repeatedly stating that it is has become your position, not a necessary consideration of any Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, nor a mandate of this RfC. You're welcome to your opinion about what constitutes a controversy, but your are incorrect. --] (]) 01:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::Specific mentions by outspoken critics of Fox News regarding the donation include:
			:::::::* DGA in , , , , , and
			:::::::* Kelly McBride (ethics instructor at journalism training facility The Poynter Institute) in PBS.
			:::::::* ] in , Guardian, <s>and </s>
			:::::::* DNC in , , and Channel 4
			:::::::* If you want exact quotes, that will take longer. ] (]) 01:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::::::''If you want exact quotes, that will take longer.''
			::::::::Without exact quotes highlighting what text you are referring to, the exercise is rather meaningless. I would suggest you start with your best and one at a time might better serve discussion but whatever your pleasure. ] (]) 01:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::::::You may have to click those links or visit the library. --] (]) 01:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			{{od}}
			First, striking one reference. I got the Fox News Eric Burns confused with the MMfA Eric Burns. Second, here's three quotes regarding the DGA on Fox News regarding the donation.
			*From PBS source, ''"Democratic Governors Association called the move, first reported by Bloomberg News in June, "a jaw-dropping violation of the boundary between the media and corporate realm.""''
			*From Channel 4 source, ''"Executive director of the Democratic Governors Association Nathan Daschle said that for a media company to insert itself into the outcome of political contests was "stunning". And, he went on, "The people owning Fox News have made a decision that they want to see Democratic governors go down to defeat. It's a jaw-dropping violation of the boundary between the media and corporate realm."''
			*From Politico source, ''"Democrats charged that the million-dollar donation, first reported by Bloomberg Businessweek, was proof positive that Murdoch’s claim that Fox News is “fair and balanced” is a myth. “They’re bankrolling the GOP,” the executive director of the Democratic Governors Association, Nathan Daschle, said of News Corp. Some Democrats said it would be impossible for Fox to continue to claim objectivity."''
			*Since I don't fully understand what this exercise is suppose to accomplish, I'm not going to cut/paste every quote here. ] (]) 04:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::I don't know how to make it more clear. The issue in the RfC is whether this content is relevant for inclusion as a "Fox News Controversy". You need to provide reliable third-party sourcing to adequately support that contention.
			::As to your offerings, the PBS text you cite doesn't even mention Fox News. It refers to "the move" which appears to refer to the News Corp donation itself. Nor does the Channel 4 cite reference "Fox News" but rather the "people owning Fox News". As to "Politico", while your cite merely reports the allegation against "Fox News" made by "unnamed democrats", the DGA E.D. Daschle, and "some democrats", I'll give you that one.
			::Two more and I'll vote to include (perhaps you should try Howard Kurtz suggested earlier). ] (]) 05:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::From ''Reliable Sources'' August 22, 2010:
			::::<small>Here's what I didn't like -- Rupert Murdoch's News Corp . giving $1 million to the Republican Governors Association . It was only four months ago that Murdoch said this --
			::::(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
			::::RUPERT MURDOCH, NEWS CORP .: I didn't we should be supporting the Tea Party or any other party.
			::::(END VIDEO CLIP)
			::::KURTZ: Now, there's a fair amount of hypocrisy surrounding this question.</small>
			:::Kurtz goes on to describe the other donations, and concludes it is not likely to affect FOX News gathering, but that the controversy is not surprising.
			:::From ''Countdown'', Olbermann interviews Eric Burns,
			::::<small>BURNS: ... You know, as you said earlier, when Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corp , was asked if this is something Fox should be engaged in, he said no. He promised to investigate. That never happened. I guess the as a result of that investigation was he decided to donation to defeat Republican governors -- Democratic governors, excuse me.
			::::OLBERMANN: He investigated and discovered that there was not enough money coming out of his pocket to the Republicans.</small>
			:::And on The ED Show, Ed Shultz interviewed Nathan Daschle on August 24, 2010 about this. Shultz said
			::::<small>FOX News is still duping folks into thinking that they are a real news organization and they have a front row seat in the White House briefing room to show for it. But News Corp . recently removed any illusion of fair and balanced by giving a $1 million to the Republicans. So now, several media Watchdog groups are urging the White House Correspondents Association to reconsider FOX`s front row privileges.</small>
			:::I can give you quotes of a similar nature from all 30+ sources I cited, but this should be sufficient by the criteria you set out. --] (]) 05:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			::::Good Lord. You offer Olbermann, Burns, Ed Schultz and Daschle as non-partisan sources? ] (]) 05:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::Where is this non-partisan coming from? If you're trying to satisfy some personal criteria for inclusion, I respect that, but I don't think it will carry much weight with a RfC !vote. ] (]) 06:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			{{od}}First, I appreciate your effort in providing both suggested relevant text and links to same. As to...
			:''Where is this non-partisan coming from?''
			I will try explaining this one more time. There is no Misplaced Pages P&G as to what constitutes a "controversy". It is, therefore, a subjective determination that must be made by editor consensus that this is a "Fox News Controversy". That determination must be made by examining relevant content in suggested reliable sourcing that might support a premise that this News Corp donation equates to a "Fox News Controversy". If that allegation is not supported in adequate reliable sourcing other than from hyper-partisan sources, then it is, more than likely, partisan propaganda. If that is so, then a question on the propriety of including this content in an article entitled "Fox News Controversies" should naturally ensue...and that is where non-partisan comes from. That is the criteria upon which I will make my determination of the relevancy of the "criticism" for this article...and I believe it to be a reasonable one. ] (]) 03:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			::::::I concur with Akerans. But in the interest of collegiality, here are some more citations with annotations:
			:::::::<small>Unsigned editorial in Advertising Age: "At the same time, News Corp . has donated $1 million to the Republican Governor’s Association. That’s resulted in the expected kicking and screaming from media watchdogs and the Democratic Party (which, not surprisingly, hasn’t raised a peep when other companies have lined its coffers). But News Corp .’s core consumers aren’t crying foul. "Fair and balanced" claims to the contrary, News Corp .’s constituency clearly leans right. No one expects Fox News viewers or New York Post readers to rush out into the streets to boycott a donation to the Republicans."
			:::::::Unsigned editorial, Dallas Morning News (Aug 21): "Bloomberg Business Week reported this week that Rupert Murdoch's News Corp . plunked down a cool million in June for the Republican Governors Association to use as it likes. It's beyond us how News Corp . can square that sizable donation with the tradition of an independent press."
			:::::::The Guardian's article "Fox News (and The Times) silent on News Corp 's $1m Republican party donation", notes commentary by both Kurtz, Dashchle, and Ryan Witt, noting further the donation has been "been widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." Note that this is their reporting, not editorial. (Aug 20) </small>
			::::::I can do this for every article on my list. I am still genuinely confused as to what you're looking for. Non-partisan sources which report that partisan sources criticize FOX? --] (]) 07:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::::<small>Regarding Kurtz</small>Now this is a most interesting offering. First of all, I'm not sure just what relevancy the cited text brings to bear to this discussion, but there's uncited text (which, I assume, your paraphrase purports to represent) which I have just now read for the first time that is stunningly relevant...
			::::::"So, there's no basis for arguing that the donations compromise Fox News more than the other networks.
			:::::Thank you Howard Kurtz. ] (]) 02:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			::::::But regarding your comment, your quote is what I meant when I said "affect FOX News gathering." So we have an opinion to represent. --] (]) 03:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			Here's a little help for the inclusionists...CNN apparently still cares...
			:When news broke earlier this month of News Corporation's massive contributions to the RGA, Democrats pounced.
			:"'Fair and Balanced' has been rendered utterly meaningless," Democratic National Committee spokesman Hari Sevugan said. "Any pretense that may have existed about the ties between Fox News and the Republican Party has been ripped violently away.
			One more cite to go for inclusion as far as I'm concerned.
			] (]) 05:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			::Jake, you now have what, 30 or 40 citations? Editors here have bent over backwards to accommodate your requests, despite them being unfounded in policy or guidelines. You requested non-partisan sources, we located dozens. Some you ignore, others you dismiss by your own personal standard. You requested quotes, to avoid looking up the article yourself, then proceeded misrepresent the article based on the quote. What you're looking--your own personal standard for inclusion--for remains elusive. Your random requests are tiresome and pointless; I am not playing anymore. Look up and discuss the articles you've already been provided with. --] (]) 12:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
			=== Summary of positions ===
			This page is going in circles, limiting anyone else's ability to enter into the discussion and going over the same material again and again. I propose major discussants state summaries of their views below and we all restrain ourselves from replying to each other. --] (]) 19:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
			== This RfC & Have You Stopped Beating Your Wife? ==
			With reams of commentary generated by this as yet unresolved RfC, its perhaps worthwhile to re-consider both its genesis and its composition. Several observations...
			* Under what circumstances was this RfC presented? The content discussion had barely commenced (8 comments had been offered) when we were presented with an RfC on the question. Why?
			* The RfC was unilaterally composed. Was that composition itself neutral?
			* The RfC was unilaterally inserted with no prior discussion as to its efficacy or need. Why?
			Here's the RfC again for reference...
			:NewsCorp, the parent of Fox News Channel, has made a $1 million donation to a GOP organization. Should this incident and the controversy surrounding it be included in the Fox News Channel controversies article? Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant; opponents contend the information is only relevant to the NewsCorp article.
			Specifically, consider the neutrality of the following. Here's the "opposition" position as stated...
			:...opponents contend the information is only relevant to the NewsCorp article.
			One would think, in equity, that the corollary to the opposition position might be...
			:Proponents contend the information is relevant to both Newscorp and Fox News.
			Instead, we're offered (emphasis mine)...
			:Proponents contend that the '''widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias''' makes this information relevant.
			That's "neutral"?
			IMHO, this RfC should have been challenged as to its efficacy and language at its inception. I regret that it wasn't examined more closely when the opportunity presented. ] (]) 12:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			: Agreed sadly the RFC rigging that took place with dozens of SPAs arriving overshadowed the more serious flaws in the actual RFC itself. The wording of the RFC was certainly not neutral, and i am unsure if others supported the proposed method of resolving this matter. Its clear when the issues are actually debated in detail as they have been way below the RFC, the case for inclusion is very weak. It would be unfortunate if these matters are over looked simply because of the mess the above RFC has been. And ofcourse this RFC could still go on for another couple of weeks. A sentence that clearly lacks neutrality remains in the article. It should have been locked on the article without the text in. :\ ] (]) 14:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
			Agreed that it's not neutral it should have read:
			"Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant; opponents contend the proponents contension of "widespread accusations" is a false characterization of what they view as relatively little criticism levied at Fox.
			Oh well, back to arguing.] (]) 20:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			:Wikiposter, "Have you stopped beating your wife / Have you stopped beating yours?" is not exactly what I had in mind. ] (]) 20:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			::???? What?] (]) 20:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			::Your suggested text (unless you were simply being facetious) simply compounds the problem by balancing prejudicial text with more prejudicial text. Either way, it's after the fact supposin'. The RfC was clearly prejudicial at its inception. ] (]) 22:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
			:::Didn't realize what I wrote. This should be fine then.] (]) 22:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

---

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Archives
February 2006 – July 2006 June 2006 – August 2006 July 2006 – July 2007 June 2007 – December 2007

POLITICAL CHANGES

Photographs should be put up where Fox News had altered the political party namely from corrupt Republicans being represented as Democrats:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/88511/thumbs/s-SANFORD-large.jpg http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/88512/thumbs/s-FOLEY-large.jpg

Commenting so this is archived. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Just wondering...

Why one MMFA and HP suddenly qualify as big ticket news items? The different incidents could be explained as honest mistakes and really HP and MMFA aren't good indicators of notability. Soxwon (talk) 05:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The "mistakes" seem to consistently favor Republicans. Mistakes would happen in equal frequency in both directions. Can you find any examples of a scandal prone Democrats being mislabeled as a Republican? The list included in the article is only a partial list. Here are some others - http://intershame.com/on/Fox_News/?d=123. In terms of notability, just because the source is MMFA or HP doesn't mean it isn't notable. If you Google each event, you'll find that there were many opinion pieces that referred to each one. Ucanlookitup (talk) 12:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

No, but coverage from other sources that aren't there just to criticize Fox News (like MMFA) or from a liberal blog (HP) would establish that these were genuine controversies. And your argument mistakes burden of evidence. Can you cite an example where this "controversy" made it into the mainstream media? Most of the places I noticed were simple blogs quoting intershame, hardly mainstream coverage. Soxwon (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

You make a fair point about not finding it in the mainstream media. I'll concede on notability. Ucanlookitup (talk) 22:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Fox News has an obvious ideological slant on stories they choose to cover, in some cases promote, the conservative "fact checkers" they use, and the slant within the stories. How is Fox News considered legitimate but Huffington Post accused of ideological slant? Just wondering... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.153.76 (talk) 18:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see related discussion at this noticeboard. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 18:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding "not finding it in the mainstream media"... MSNBC, at the very least, has extensively covered the four video mistakes in the past few weeks. I am pretty sure the Daily Show has as well, and I doubt they're the only ones. But, either way, people seem to be under the mistaken impression that WP:NPOV requires sources be without ideology, which is a complete misunderstanding of policy -- WP:NPOV only requires that Misplaced Pages present issues neutrally (not that sources be neutral). See the detailed explanation here. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say that sources had to be w/o an ideology, but if they tend to blow minor incidents out of proportion (even if done in a factually accurate manner) then the WP:WEIGHT of their content that is being added comes into question. Soxwon (talk) 20:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

With no disrespect intended, your categorization of incidents as "minor" or not is not really relevant -- that the criticism has been picked up (or acknowledged separately) in mainstream media is plenty sufficient indication that the incident has weight. Honestly, Soxwon, I don't think you're going to be able to sell this as some sort of insignificant criticism by fringe groups carrying no weight -- MMFA/FAIR/etc. are already considered reliable sources with regards to media issues (as noted at the RSN noticeboard request you made); broadcast sourcing on MSNBC (and likely elsewhere, if we bother to hunt it down) is just the final nail in that coffin. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

This discussion was specifically focused on the mislabeling of scandal prone Democrats as Republicans. SoxWon started the discussion when I restored the edit he removed. The video incidents are still in the article and were widely reported in the mainstream media. I cannot find any examples, though, of the mainstream media covering the incorrect party attribution. If anyone else can, please include the reference. Ucanlookitup (talk) 03:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Ucanlookitup, you just opened a can of worms. A minor mislabel is nothing compared to the rest of the media's blatant lack of labels whenever a Democrat has a scandal. PokeHomsar (talk) 08:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Slogan controversy and "Outfoxed"

There appears to be very little or no mention of Fox's "Fair and Balanced" slogan controversy, although this slogan has been widely criticized. Doesn't this issue merit more discussion in the article?

Also, Robert Greenwald's 2004 documentary Outfoxed is hardly mentioned or referenced in the article, despite being a key player in the Fox News coverage balance and bias debate. Perhaps it and its assertions should be further explored in this article, particularly in concert with the slogan controversy.

71.198.169.120 (talk) 19:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

No. --Tom (talk) 20:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, yes, this topic does merit more discussion, and this topic has been discussed in reliable, scholarly sources. Viriditas (talk) 07:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Personally, a documentary by Media Matter for America, a company much more liberally biased than FNC is conservatively biased, is not worth more discussion. Outside of Beck, O'Reilly (sometimes,) and Hannity, FNC is mostly fair and balanced. PokeHomsar (talk) 08:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No. It isn't, and after their most recent $1 million donation, it is perfectly reasonable to include partisan criticism of another partisan organization. Fox has argued before the Supreme Court it is an entertainment organization, not a news organization, yet it pretends and acts as if it were one. Comparisons with MSNBC are false, because only 15 hours of MSNBC are liberal, whilst the rest is centrist or conservative. FOX News is unique in American Media and thus deserves special consideration as being pointed out as being the partisan arm of the Right that they really are. The one million dollar donation removes all doubt to the contrary about that to any honest observer. Manticore55 (talk) 06:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

PokeHomsar, so what you are saying is that other than the "journalists" who account for creating and maintaining the vast majority of Fox's viewership, as well as being the most widely watched segments on FNC, the rest is pretty fair and balanced? That being the case, then I think this is very relevant to the topic at hand. RobertMfromLI | User Talk 21:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Ropbert, Beck, O'reilly, and Hannity are not journalists. They're pundits. Asking for them to be neutral would be like asking for Keith Olbermann to be neutral.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:39, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

As for Manticore's rant... do expect to be taken seriously?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:39, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter0123: I agree, but that is why I think this is an important topic for inclusion. O'Reilly is one of the biggest who keeps mentioning how they are "Fair and Balanced" - and all three pretend they're news casters as opposed to pundits. RobertMfromLI | User Talk 21:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Title

The current title is not appropriate for this article. This is not an article about the journalist standards or ethics regarding FNC. It is an article largely of the complaints by others about FNC. Controversies may not be a good name, but this is clearly misleading. Arzel (talk) 02:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

There also doesn't appear to be any recent discussion or concensus for this change. I am changing back and suggest we discuss a proper title. Arzel (talk) 02:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure how to return name. Anyone else know? Arzel (talk) 02:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Frankly it appears to be an attack article and I'm not sure it would (or should) survive an AfD. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Um, it already has survived an AFD, Jake. As far as title goes, how about Criticism of Fox News? Stonemason89 (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

There was absolutely no discussion of this move and I am going to revert. Soxwon (talk) 03:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

News Corp Co-Owner Donates $300,000 to NY Mosque effort

Since the News Corp GOP donation is being debated, I figured this would be debated as well. "The second largest shareholder in News Corp. -- the parent company of Fox News -- has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes linked to the Imam planning to build a Muslim community center and mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, says a report from Yahoo!News." Yahoo! News Highly relevant -- Fox News has campaigned against the mosque for weeks now, without revealing that their parent company had involvements in the mosque funding. This just broke today (Sunday, August 22, 2010). Please include after appropriate head-scratching and debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.142.53 (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Well he is a muslim, so its not that surprising. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that News Corp had any involvement in the mosque funding. This donation of $305K was from Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, of Saudi Arabia, and it was from his charity, not News Corp. This item just isn't relevant in this article, although it might be in his. — Becksguy (talk) 23:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The connection though was made due to Al-Waleen owning seven percent of News Corp, being a significant co-owner of Fox News. It should also be noted that as of 2010 News Corp. has a $70 (9%) investment in Al-Waleed's Rotana Group, the Arab World's largest entertainment company.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe its just me, but I thought I saw User:76.123.142.53's tongue rather firmly implanted in his cheek. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he's just trying to note the irony of using a businesses' lack of support for Obama's business-killing economic plan to show conservative bias in a daughter company by comparing it to that same businesses' apparent interest in things that contradict that very same daughter companies perceived position.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes it's hard to tell... Remember the funny one in the RfC on Fox as a RS in which someone claimed that CBS created a fake news story in 1938 as evidence of deception? It was, of course, The War of the Worlds (radio). That one I enjoyed. — Becksguy (talk) 23:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

LOL. :)

While we're at it have you heard of the "Swiss Spaghetti harvest"? Epic hoax by the BBC. Maybe I'll start an RfC on their credibility. :PWikiposter0123 (talk) 00:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Auto archiving

I've added 45 day/10 thread auto archiving to this page as its getting really long. I hope that's OK. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

$1 Million GOP Donation

Fox parent News Corps donated $1 Million dollars to the Republican Governor's Association. Many news outlets have covered this controversy, but Fox News hasn't mentioned it once. This has gotten a lot of press lately...any reason its not on this section?184.91.62.76 (talk) 01:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

For one thing this article is about Fox News Channel, not about News Corps. Arzel (talk) 19:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not like FNC/NC has been accused of republican bias, so it's totally irrelevant to this article. Oh wait... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

FNC mentioned on Special Report, the day the story broke. Good researching there, plant. PokeHomsar (talk) 02:46, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

No, they did not. The story broke on August 16th, and FoxNews Special report had a 39 second blurb about it on August 18th. They waited 2 days after the story broke before they mentioned it at all!DellDolly (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please show the footage--no mention has ever been made on FNC.184.91.62.76 (talk) 18:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to the 39 second video of the mention on FoxNews Special Report. DellDolly (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC) :http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008180065 DellDolly (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

And it is not relevant to the article. Add it to New Corp. article. Or, you're asking us to add to every publication and news service they own. Blaxthos, your input as a terribly biased individual to the other side, is not needed here. PokeHomsar (talk) 02:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Utterly preposterous...it is part of the main Fox News article; and the criticism of the donation is directly relevant to Fox News because the News Channel is the one being accused of showing a bias to the GOP, in fact, the letter from the DGA was addressed to Roger Ailes of FOX NEWS, not to Rupert Murdoch. Fox News' coverage of the issue and Mr. Daschle's response is also part of the controversy, which is the title of the article. To say that NewsCorps donation has nothing to do with Fox News is disingenous at best and blatantly partisan at worst. I have no trouble including a spirited defense of the donation in the article, but to ignore it is just ridiculous.SemDem (talk) 18:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? News Corp. owns the New York Post, the FOX network, Fox Business Network, the Wall Street Journal, and several other things. FNC isn't the only thing Murdoch owns in the media industry. He even owns a chunk of Hulu. Also, not only was this kind of thing legal before the Citizens United case (it was,) but before the $1 million donation, News Corp. had mostly given about equal to both parties. PokeHomsar (talk) 19:15, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no question the donation is legal. The donation is also a matter of fact and it's on the record. The donation of $1,000,000 to a congressional committee at the national level would be noteworthy enough, but this was to the Republican Governor's Association. It is understood that Fox News Channel will be actively promoting Republican candidates for governor and incumbent Republican governors and not giving equal treatment to Democrats. This donation is evidence of that and thus stands as a controversial act. Also, the relationship between News Corp and Fox News is exceptionally close and not at all like that of other parent companies of media outlets. See Robert Greenwald's "Outfoxed" ] for actual memos from corporate to Fox News personalities directing them how to craft political perceptions (in favor of Republicans).Nlaeditor (talk) 10:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Saying that before this donation, News Corp had given to both sides equally is incredibly disingenuous. Previous donations were in the range of tens of thousands of dollars. Any comment denying that a million dollars is a lot more than donations that might add up to $100,000 in any given election year is a dishonest one! $100,000 is only 10% of $1 million. And, to top that off, previous donations were from employees and PAC's. This donation was directly from corporate, not from employees. That makes it different too. DellDolly (talk) 06:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Murdoch also owns the Weekly Standard. PokeHomsar (talk) 19:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

In terms of viewer ship, income and size, Fox News dwarfs all of those other areas. Furthermore, Fox News is far more blatantly partisan than any of the other outfits owned by News Corp, AND have not so blatantly championed the Citizens United Decision of the Roberts Court which made this possible. And calling someone a "Plant" is a violation of Misplaced Pages Policy. WP: Courtesy. Manticore55 (talk) 06:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

RFC: $1 Million GOP Donation

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NewsCorp, the parent of Fox News Channel, has made a $1 million donation to a GOP organization. Should this incident and the controversy surrounding it be included in the Fox News Channel controversies article? Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant; opponents contend the information is only relevant to the NewsCorp article. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support inclusion as RFC nominator. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• NO Since it was not an action taken by FNC, I cannot see how this would be a controversy of FNC's making. It is entirely a manufactured controversy from the left. NewsCorp has donated money to both parties for years, historically the majority has gone to Democrats, now that they have donated to the Republicans the left wants to attack FNC. GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to both parties as well with the majority going to Democrats, yet none of the GE related news companies (NBC, MSNBC, NBC News) mention it, neither does GE for that matter. It is already mentioned on the NewsCorp article; where it belongs. Arzel (talk) 19:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

If the left has linked this to Foc News then it is a Fox News controversy and should be included here.filceolaire (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I understand that logic. This has nothing to do with FNC Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

On your first point, Arzel: It is disingenuous to point out previous NC political contributions because the $1 million recently donated is more than the combined donations to both parties in the last 4 years. The political timing of the donation is also very convenient, making it hard to believe that it was a short-term whim to donate to republicans and not an opportunistic play on a long-term agenda. On your second point: While it would normally be unfair to judge a subsidiary corporation based on the actions of its parent corporation, context is everything. Fox News isn't some distinct corporate entity that acts independently of its parents corporation, and News Corp isn't the type of parent company which does nothing but act as a holdings company. Fox News is known to cater to, if not manufacture altogether, conservative sentiment. While Fox News themselves may not have produced the event, it is somewhat clear that the 1$ million donation from NC is rooted in the same poisonous tree that other Fox News controversies are rooted in, so I think its somewhat relevant to put here. This is especially true since the "Criticism/Controversies" section of the NewsCorp article has been eliminated anyway. I wouldn't mind omitting the action on the Fox News controversies page if there was another page or section dedicated to tracking criticisms/controversies of NewsCorp as a whole (particularly when one criticism (partisan bias) spans so many subsidiaries). Kapnobatairza (talk) 00:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Possibly include as part of a neutral summary of NewsCorp donation history during Fox News existence. It's attracted enough attention to merit mentioning, but it needs context then. Rd232 20:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Is it really debatable to include an empirical fact? Surprised that someone had the gaul to call it manufactured. And how is it not notable? It got a lot of coverage. This should be a given to be included. 68.227.169.133 (talk) 10:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC) (UTC)— 68.227.169.133 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I offered a submission that I researched and made sure to include Fox News and News Corps responses to be fair and balanced. First I was told it was a minor controversy, then I was told no one really was covering it (false), then I was told that I had to get "consensus" from everybody on this highly partisan issue (even though some here clearly have an agenda), then I was told that News Corps has nothing to do with Fox News. Enough! This is the largest donation made by a private company to the RGA AND one of the largest in history by a media organization! This issue is already on the main article on Fox News, and it has been thoroughly covered by the main stream media. The criticism has been directed towards Roger Ailes and Fox News in terms of how they can claim to be "fair and balanced" in the coverage of upcoming races as well as Fox News' reluctance to cover the controversy! As I said before, I have no trouble with a blurb that gives a strong defense of the donation...but it is disingenuous at best and partisan at worst to say that this does not deserve to be in this article.SemDem (talk) 02:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Cross Posting your efforts at the Daily Kos really don't help your situation. This RFC is now completely worthless as you have inundated it with your fellow biased crew. This comment gives you away.

  We gave up on the Fox News main page, and simply added a balanced blurb on the "Fox News Controversies" page, which even INCLUDED the official Fox News and News Corps defense of the donation. It was removed.

  Arzel (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Arzel, for all we know you could have made the "cross posting" at that website when you realized that community consensus was against you anyway, thereby giving yourself an excuse to claim the whole RFC is "worthless"... I'm just saying, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is no policy that says an RFC becomes "worthless" if it gets attention off-wiki; we simply consider the content of the arguments instead of the quantity of participants -- if we now have a million editors who all give reasoned arguments, then their argument still are valid. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 15:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm just saying, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I concur with Blaxthos' position. Off-wiki canvassing is neither new nor can even be unexpected (although experienced editors will realize that it may actually do a dis-service to the credibility of the favored position) and the tag applied was designed to address that eventuality. As to...

...for all we know you could have made the "cross posting" at that website when you realized that community consensus was against you anyway...

Good Lord Blaxthos. Provocative, incendiary and unnecessary come to mind immediately. May I suggest that this discussion of the event be re-factored out of this section to its own section if you are both committed to continuing this discussion? JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Certainly Include. Opponents state but offer no source to support contention that "NewsCorp has donated money to both parties for years, historically the majority has gone to Democrats, now that they have donated to the Republicans the left wants to attack FNC." If NewsCorp has given money to any political party, it belongs in this article. Similarly when GE and other corporations make significant gifts to either party, it should be sourced and accurately represented. Misplaced Pages is not in the business of First Amendment censorship. Republicans See Gains in Governors' Races as Funding Hits Peak by Jonathan Salant of Bloomberg responsibly reports that "News Corp., the media company controlled by Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rupert Murdoch, gave the RGA Republican Governors Association $1 million in June" and that "The Republicans' biggest corporate donor was New York-based News Corp" and that "News Corp. opposes proposed federal rule changes that would weaken the position of its Fox network in negotiations with cable companies. Governors may have a stake in the issue." In recent decision, the US Supreme Court allows unlimited corporate gifts to political parties. This gift is the largest yet by any corporation, according to the Bloomberg article. Deliberately deleting relevant facts such as these undermines Misplaced Pages credibility. Skywriter (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • The million dollar Fox gift to the Republican Governors Association is one direct effect of the Supreme Court's Citizens United opinion. Story, July 6, 2010, in Los Angeles Times by David G. Savage underscores the importance of "The 5-4 ruling in the Citizens United case (which) struck down all limits on direct election spending — for giant, profit-making corporations as well as small nonprofit groups. For more than 60 years, Congress and many states had barred corporate and union spending to sway elections. The court's opinion dismissed all such laws as unconstitutional censorship." For the first time in history, it is likely we will be seeing many more corporate gifts of significant size to each of the political parties. To set Misplaced Pages policy now, at the beginning of what is likely to be a sea change in the funding of US politics, is short-sighted and it is a disservice to the public that has a right to know who funds what campaigns. Citizens United is the fourth-largest political-advocacy organization in America, according to a recent article in Esquire. The Citizens United decision paved the way for the Fox gift to the Republican Governors Association. It is a mistake to either ignore corporate gifts to politicians or to shove 'em behind closed doors in the darkness of closets.Skywriter (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Reject, seems largely manufactured. Nobody has complained before for parent companies of news organizations making political donations, and this hasn't really received that much attention.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • "Nobody has complained before for parent companies of news organizations making political donations" is entirely implausible hyperbole, and "this hasn't really received that much attention" is simply wrong. Google News gives at least 338 articles, including UK coverage. Rd232 20:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Did you really just say "entirely implausible hyperbole"? That doesn't mean what you think it means. I suppose you could be right about the second part, Media Matters and various other blogs have harped about this quite a bit, and appear to be leading the controversy. That isn't WP:UNDUE and WP:RECENTISM at all.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Entirely Implausible....as in, it is entirely implausible that a logical or reasonable person would believe that this is 'manufactured' or what was really going on when News Corp made the donation to the Republican Party, and the fact that we are even having this conversation implies a titanic disconnect between what you're arguing and what everyone else (everyone else being 300+ articles) sees. Hyperbole, as in 'making stuff up out of thing in air' as in 'blowing stuff ridiculously out of proportion.' Yeah, saying Fox News did not make this donation smacks of Hyperbole. This "Entirely Implausible Hyperbole" seems a pretty accurate description to me. Manticore55 (talk) 06:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Yeah, saying Fox News did not make this donation smacks of Hyperbole." Re-read what "entirely implausible hyperbole" was in reference to(about parent companies making donations without being scrutinized), then re-write your response which is pretending that it was in reference to claims that Fox did not make the donation(which it didn't). Also hyperbole doesn't mean 'making stuff up out of thing in air'.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Wait and See For the most part the only real thing that has attached to FNC and received mainstream media coverage is the letter demanding full financial disclosure. After that, it's mainly incidental mentions in MSM with lots of chatter from the left. I would say wait for the mainstream media (NYT, LA Times, Globe) to pick it up or else leave it in Newscorp article where it belongs. Include per LA Times. Voices from WP and mediacoder from NYT are blogs. Don't give a fuck anymore, not really worth the time and trouble. Soxwon (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Are you guys just intentionally ignoring the references from mainstream sources? I'm quite shocked you have the balls to even attempt to shade this as some insignificant controversy only being perpetuated by fringe elements, given references as diverse and respected as:

• PBS (News Corp.'s $1M Contribution to GOP Governors Group Under Fire)
• NPR (Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. Gives Big To GOP)
• CNN (Fox News takes heat for News Corporation's GOP donation)
• CBS news (Fox News Parent News Corp. Gives $1 Million to GOP)
• BusinessWeek (Republicans See Gains in Governors’ Races as Funding Hits Peak)
• Channel 4 (Murdoch donates $1m to the Republicans)
• Politico (Fox parent's donation causes stir)
• The New York Times (This Governor Brought to You By …) (as requested!)
• Los Angeles Times (Fox News parent firm donates $1 million to Republican Governors Association) (as requested!)
• Washington Post (Fox parent News Corp. donates $1 million to Republican Governors' Association)
• The Guardian (Rupert Murdoch's Republicanism)
• The Atlanta Journal Constitution (Democrats cry foul: Fox News’ parent gives $1M for GOP victories)
• The Orlando Sentinel (Fox News Channel: Does News Corp. donation to Republican Governors Association show Fox News isn’t fair and balanced? )
• New York Magazine (Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp. Further Aligns Itself With the GOP)

The assertions (from the usual right-wing crowd) are demonstrably false. Keep in mind, this is an article about FNC controversies -- I submit that the titles of most of the references above directly reference Fox News Channel, and that the existence of a controversy is clear given the number of, and diversity amongst the sources presented. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment: it seems to me by reading the NY TImes that the "controversy" is over Nathan Daschle requesting Fox put a disclaimer on their news programs, not that News corp made the contribution. I don't really feel like going through all these but if you could just remove the rest of the articles that deal primarily with Daschle's publicity stunt and not with New Corps donation then that would help.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If Nathan Daschle has linked this donation to Fox News and this link has had publicity then it is a Fox News controversy and should go on this page.

So, just to be clear, you're not willing to actually read the source material, but you want the community to consider your opinion to be honest, informed, and in good faith? Furthermore, you want us to exclude sources based upon your own interpretations? Can you please point me towards a policy that supports this highly irregular circumstance? I'm having trouble believing you're here in good faith, and not making some pointy objection based on what you already have decided must be true... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I only want to read through articles that deal primarily with this "controversy". not the articles that happen to mention it or explain it as a backdrop to Nathan Daschle's comments which are the focus. Trying to wear down editors by mentioning so many articles which may or may not be relevant is a bad tactic to use. It is up to the one supplying the sources to make sure they are relevant, your NYT source wasn't and I just stopped reading after that. I suppose I'll read a few more, but I don't like wasting my time.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Sum up:"The Democratic National Committee called into question Fox News' objectivity Tuesday after it was reported that the cable network's parent company – News Corporation – recently donated $1 million to the Republican Governors Association."(CNN)

That is basically what these sources are saying. That the DNC is criticizing Fox for being biased because it's parent company made a donation to the GOP. I haven't yet read any articles(although I havn't read them all) that featured criticism from anybody else. How this could be subsequently drummed up as a "controversy" thus is beyond me.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The DNC is the largest political party in the USA. If they have linked this donation to Fox News then it is a Fox news controversyfilceolaire (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have now put in all the titles of each reference given above. Most of them don't mention the DNC until several paragraphs in, and only one couches the subject in the tone of "DNC raises concern." Let's stop burning that strawman. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Then respond to my question as to why criticism from seemingly solely the DNC warrants a "controversy".Wikiposter0123 (talk) 01:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Because the DNC are a major political party. filceolaire (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

My analysis (and yours) as to the "why" is irrelevant. We base inclusion on due weight evidenced by reliable sources. Given the copious sourcing in this case, I think that requirement has been satisfied. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

When you and your "friends" push to have the same information put into articles for MSNBC (parent company GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars more for Democrats) then it will be a little easier to see past the politicing of WP. This is only a controversy because the DNC seems to be crying about it. Since they have nothing else to talk about they seem to want to make this a "FNC is biased" issue, when it has nothing to do with FNC. Election season has fully arived. Arzel (talk) 02:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If one of the 2 major parties in the USA claims that "FNC is biased" then there is a controversy and it deserves to be added here. Your claim that Fox News is not biased is Original Research and has no place here.filceolaire (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You are being dishonest once again. First off, GE is a conglomerate, but their main business is not the news business. News Corp's main focus and largest companies under their umbrella are news organizations. MSNBC is a small part of GE. Secondly, when you say that GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars, those are contributions from employees and PAC's, not direct contributions from GE itself. This contribution from News Corp was from corporate, reportedly at the direction and insistence of Roger Ailes. Third, even if GE did give a $100,000 to the Democrats, they also gave close to that amount to Republicans. I checked the numbers for Disney, which owns ABC, and therefore ABC News, and their donations over the past few election cycles were about 60-40 Dems over Reps. But News Corp gave $1 million to the Republican Governors Association and nothing to the Democratic Governors Association! That amount of money is 10 times as much as the amount you're complaining that News Corp gave to Republicans. Comparing the two is simply unfair and a distraction from the controversy raised by this donation by News Corp.

And one of the main companies in the USA is FoxNews. To suggest that this isn't a FoxNews controversy is denying the undeniable. Saying that it has "nothing to do with FNC" is disingenuous.DellDolly (talk) 06:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Neither the parent company of MSNBC, GE nor the parent company of ABC News, Disney, has done a thing similar to what News Corp did. GE and Disney have both donated to both parties. In the past 4-5 years, based upon election contribution documentation sites, about 55-60% has gone to Dems and 40-45% has gone to Republicans. That's to candidates, and not to a partisan political group. That's one significant difference. Second, News Corp is largely a news media company. Neither GE nor Disney are largely involved in news media - those are tiny portions of the vast GE and Disney conglomerates, especially compared to the rightwing media presence of FoxNews, the Wall Street Journal, and many other media companies! Third, News Corp donated 100% to the Republican Governors Assoc, and 0% to the Democratic Governors Assoc. There is no precedence for that behavior in any arena. Fourth, the contributions from News Corp come from corporate - 100%. A large percentage of the contributions from "GE" actually come from the employees of GE, and are not corporate donations.

There is no fair comparison that can be made between the parent company of MSNBC and the parent company of FoxNews. Any attempt to do so is an illegitimate one, apparently intended to distract from the actual problematic behavior by News Corp. DellDolly (talk) 04:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Blax, you were the one that said MSNBC did not warrant a controversy article on Misplaced Pages, although I can write a book on it based on research from the Media Research Center alone. This does not directly concern FNC but its parent company. You wanna criticize Jon Stewart for being a hypocrite in attacking FNC for this when the parent company of Viacom gives a majority of its donations to Democrats?

Remove. PokeHomsar (talk) 02:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Gentlemen, you still seem to miss or bypass the point... your personal analyses are completely irrelevant. Let's stick to policy discussions instead of playing armchair pundit and/or misrepresenting clearly unrelated discussions. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Policy. You mean like WP:RECENTISM and WP:UNDUE during the summer cool off period where nothing exciting news related happens so everything gets covered no matter how unimportant.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 03:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:RECENTISM is not a policy. Can you point out the language in WP:UNDUE that you believe supports the "summer cool off period" analysis to ignore dozens of sources? The actual language in the policy is (emphasis in original):

Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject ... in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public.

I think it's been sufficiently demonstrated that there are ample diverse reliable sources that have published this controversy. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Controversy"? What they have published is criticism by the DNC. Does criticism by the DNC alone mount to a controversy to you? It would be a controversy if others jumped on the band wagon and supported the DNC, but it appears that largely news organizations have solely reported what the DNC has said without weighing in themselves. If the RNC criticizes Obama and that gets reported on then should that get mentioned in Obama's article? Somehow I think you would say No.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 03:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

When a News Organization donates a million dollars to a political party, it deserves mention in the article. I am normally a huge fact of waiting for 'cooling off' but some events are significant enough that one does need to wait for them. You didn't need to WAIT three weeks until after Pearl Harbor to know it was an event. To those who might call that analogy hyperbole, how about the Citizens vs United decision that made this even possible? That case had major historical significance and did not require time to determine whether or not it was necessary. Fox News has donated to a major political party. It *IS* worthy of inclusion in the article. Failure to include it seriously seriously seriously undermines Misplaced Pages's credibility. WP:Recentism does not apply. Manticore55 (talk) 04:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"When a News Organization donates a million dollars to a political party, it deserves mention in the article."

Do you care to strike out or rewrite your baloney argument? Fox news didn't make the donation. Kinda of makes you whole argument seem irrelevant and out of touch(especially the comparison to Pearl Harbor).Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you care to strike out or rewrite your insult of me in clear violation of Misplaced Pages Policy? While you mention 'the argument' the tone of your statement is clearly meant as a diminutive and as an insult upon my person. Please apologize and rewrite your statement. Now on to your statement: Fox news did make the donation. Yes, Fox News is a sub set of News Corp, but Fox News is the most prominently visible member OF that corp. I know this because Fox News makes the statement that they are the number one cable news network on a regular basis. Your counter argument frankly smacks of Weasel Words, metaphorically speaking. To say that Fox News didn't make the donation is a False Correlation. Manticore55 (talk) 05:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you suggesting Fox News prompted News Corps to make the donation that they otherwise wouldn't have? News Corps owns dozens of companies including Myspace, WSJ, and Hulu, to say that they made the donation would be equally dishonest. You are attempting to label this as a Fox News decision without any evidence for that. I won't bother askign for you to strike out your comments, they're pretty ridiculous as they stand.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Include. This is significant information that people seeking out knowledge about this organization could find useful as they try to make an informed judgment. Arguing to omit this information supports a political position and not the free exchange of information that should be the purpose of Misplaced Pages. This should be included because it is a documented fact and some readers (and that is all that is required) could find it useful in forming their own opinion about the coverage of news by the Fox organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.109.198 (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — 67.162.109.198 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Agree with above comment: "When a News Organization donates a million dollars to a political party, it deserves mention in the article." Period. 04:35, 22 August 2010, EastCountyNewsie —Preceding unsigned comment added by EastCountyNewsie (talk • contribs)

Fox didn't donate a million dollars to a political party. Period.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't the elves, it was Santa! Manticore55 (talk) 05:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It was News Corp, a media conglomerate which specializes in news organizations, including FoxNews and the Wall Street Journal here in the USA. The donation was meant to influence elections in the USA, and so the relevant News Corp businesses are those that are in the USA!! That would include FoxNews, and so the contribution by News Corp to the Republican Governors Association certainly IS a Fox News Channel controversy. Trying to deny it by saying that FoxNews is only a subsidiary of News Corp is trying to deny reality and is a lie by omission! —Preceding unsigned comment added by DellDolly (talk • contribs) 06:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If it's not to a political party, what's the word "REPUBLICAN" doing in the name of the organization? The sheer number and extent of comments about this matter here is per se evidence of a "controversy" that must be noted on Fox's wiki page. The more comments and dispute, the more evidence the controversy must be reported. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EastCountyNewsie (talk • contribs) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.200.175 (talk) 17:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Include: The opinion that Fox is biased toward the GOP is probably the most noteworthy thing about the network. The fact that News Corp. Gave $1 million to the Rep. Gov. Assoc. is excellent supporting evidence of this obvious fact. No reason to delete it, other than an effort to hide the fact of Fox bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.91.18.87 (talk) 04:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — 69.91.18.87 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

No one other than the Democratic National Committee seems to think so.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note: most of the new comers seem to be under the impression that Fox news itself made the actual donation, as opposed to it's parent company News Corps, a humongous news conglomerate who owns media entities as vast and distinct as hulu.com and myspace(why isn't this being mentioned in their articles as well?). I would advise them to re-read this discussion so that they can properly understand what is going on here. I will repeat my previous argument, if you can find notable people criticizing the donation outside of the Democratic National Committee then this could amount to a controversy.

Counter Note: I am not a new comer to wikipedia, only to this discussion and I am well aware that Fox News is merely a subsidiary of News Corp, nevertheless, failure to identify Fox News as the chief political spokesman for the views of Newscorp, and those correlate the point raised here is an intellectually dishonest argument. Manticore55 (talk) 05:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Fox News isn't their political spokesperson, News corps has their own spokespeople. And you speak of dishonesty.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

As I explained above, this was a contribution to the USA's Republican Governors Association, and so the companies under the control of News Corp in the USA are the relevant ones. One of the major companies owned by that media conglomerate would be FoxNews. Denying this is denying the undeniable.DellDolly (talk) 06:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Nobody's denying the facts, just the relevancy.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: You are about to witness an epic 50+ person pile-on for inclusion that ends at the subsection titled "arbitrary break". After discussion at the arbitrary break subsection ends the discussion continues at a section titled "Failed attempt at..." in a subsection of that section titled "continued discussion". Please do not be discouraged to join in the discussion from this, but if you are then at any point in time just reading the last 10 or so comments will probably get you up-to-date on where the discussion is, but please don't post if you haven't at least read the last 10 or so comments.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include This was a significant event and generated significant controversy, the subject of this article. Editors attempting to disparage sources on this talk page seem to be latching onto the fact that news organizations requested comment from Democratic organizations as evidence that this was a politically manufactured controversy when it is no such thing. Widgertick (talk) 05:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — Widgertick (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include Any media organization that would donate such a large amount in such a partisan fashion would endure controversy, no matter the political affiliations involved; this should be no different. Ks64q2 (talk) 06:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Just for record, first edit in 3 months, 3rd edit in 6 months for this one Soxwon (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. What does that have to do with anything? You are free to leave a note when it is a new user or new SPA, but this is an established user since 2006 that has made about 1,000 edits to Misplaced Pages. Your comment for the 'record' should be outright removed for trying to mislead editors. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include It absolutely is controversial for an ostensibly neutral media outlet to not acknowledge the biases of its parent organization. When someone on NBC talks about General Electric and any controversial activity GE is doing, there is at least a reasonable frequency of the time an on-air acknowledgment that GE owns NBC, alerting the viewers that the broadcast is potentially biased. Fox is a News Corporation entity and there is therefore a reasonable case (and controversy) to be made that Fox should therefore acknowledge openly the potential for bias in its reporting. Vote (talk) 06:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — Vote (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include When the parent company of a major news organization which explicitly represents itself as "fair and balanced" donates such a large sum of money to one political party, that is a conflict of interest. The public has a right to know about political donations like this one, and their potential implications for objective news reporting. As for editors claiming that personal politics are motivating those who wish to include, isn't that a clearly ad hominem argument, and sidestepping the issue at hand? Personally, I would support inclusion even if it were Time Warner or NBC Universal who had donated to the DNC. Again, this is not about politics, it's about the potential conflict of interest when the parent company of a major news organization clearly shows a political bias. As such, it deserves to be included in the Controversies section. -BloodDoll (talk) 06:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in 7 months. Soxwon (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Soxwon, this is again an irrelevant attempt to mislead editors. This is not a new user, nor is he a single purpose account. Strike your note immediately. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, I am busy in RL and do not often login to Misplaced Pages. I prefer to browse as an IP, but if a discussion catches my interest or I want to work on an article I will log in. Inactivity and then sudden activity, by itself, should not be criteria for labeling me as a meatpuppet. Now, if I had a long history of popping into controversial political topics on Misplaced Pages and advocating a liberal viewpoint, your conclusion might have merit. As it stands, I don't think it does.

Also, I am changing my position to Exclude because I have changed my mind, and now do not think this meets Misplaced Pages guidelines for inclusion (see the latest section on this talkpage.) -BloodDoll (talk) 07:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Of course. This shouldn't even be up for debate. News Corp owns Fox, and the quote given by the News Corp spokesperson about the donation was very specifically ideological. It's difficult to imagine a reason why a reader should be kept from this information while deciding on source of bias for this network. There's no legal independence by FNC from News Corp and the size of the donation is enormous even for a large corporate donor to a party committee. FNV (talk) 07:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

First edit in 6 months. Soxwon (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Notes are to be used against brand new accounts and new single purpose accounts. FNV is neither, making quality edits to articles for over four years. Your constant attempts to discredit votes of established users with misleading half-truths is unacceptable. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Geez. I can't believe this is even being debated. Of course, there have been lots of things that have been debated (and voted on) in the nearly seven years I've been editing here that have surprised me, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that I am surprised. --Ray Radlein (talk) 08:24, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

First edit in 3 weeks. Soxwon (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include I'm surprised and disheartened that this is even up for debate. Needlehawk (talk) 10:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — Needlehawk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include That it's controversial is evident from the comments on this page. Whichever side you're on, there's clearly debate about this, and that's the criteria. There are reputable media sources to back up the story. It's noteworthy, it goes up. EvilStorm (talk) 10:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the best argument I've seen so far in this discussion. There is clearly controversy. Those who point out that it is not actually Fox News itself that made the donation should be satisfied with a clear, factual statement that its parent company was responsible for the donation. But not mentioning the controversy at all strikes me as a POV willful ignoring of facts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Is it really debatable to include an empirical fact? Surprised that someone had the gaul to call it manufactured. And how is it not notable? It got a lot of coverage. This should be a given to be included. 68.227.169.133 (talk) 10:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Obviously newsworthy. Wording is always contentious, but the donation, particularly its size, is an undeniable fact, and worth including in an encyclopedia article about an avowedly right wing information disseminating organization. I'm disheartened that this is up for debate, but not surprised. Fox News partisans consistently descend upon such issues and create false controversies. Including this is NOT controversial. The contribution itself, IS controversial. The former refers to the encyclopedia, the latter refers to interpretations that can be made on all sides as to the implications of said contribution. --Quartermaster (talk) 10:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• INCLUDE Facts are facts. If you dance with the Republican party, donate to one of their campaign organizations, you almost exclusively cite pollsters who donate to the Republican party, and you create astroturf campaigns (tea party) to support the Republican party, then you have no business acting like you are nothing more than part and parcel of the Republican party. If you try to project that you are anything else, you are lying to the audience. Which is ok as long as everyone knows you're lying. But don't act like you're telling the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.25.186 (talk) 11:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — 76.98.25.186 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• INCLUDE "Facts are facts" (above) says it well. If Americans expect the news media to report facts, any accusations of any bias aside, then reporting facts about media companies is essential. If the entity in question is a subsidiary, it still reflects the corporation's viewpoint. Political donations are a fact, and laws generally require disclosure. So the fact is unassailable. It's not as if there is a secret News Corp/Fox donation of $1 million to Move On that has not been leaked. Arguments about the "manufactured controversy" are irrelevant. dadadata (talk) 12:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC) {{

First edit in 4 months Soxwon (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Dadadata is a long-time editor that has been clearly established and is not a brand new user or new single purpose account. You are leaving these notes on multiple established users, and it is blatantly disruptive. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• INCLUDE (update my comment immediately above) See the new Joseph Pulitzer biography by Jeffrey Brown. It shows that the historic relationship between mass media, media owners whether individuals or corporations, and politics has always been one of money and electoral support. This is only the latest in a long, long tradition of mass media taking sides in elections. It is pointless to pretend otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dadadata (talk • contribs) 13:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include This was clearly newsworthy, we need only look at the sources and the discussion it caused in media. I do not think the distinction between Fox News and the news corp is relevant. It is also a very large sum of money. futurebird (talk) 11:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

First edit in 5 Months Soxwon (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant Once again, this is an inappropriate 'note' made in an attempt to discredit the vote of an established user that has made thousands of edits to Misplaced Pages since 2006. Futurebird is not a new account. Futurebird is not a single purpose account. Your comments are misleading and need to be struck immediately. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Obviously. This has been all over the news for days and is very relevant. The argument that News Corps isn't Fox News is baloney, like trying to claim that Walt Disney's "Peter Pan" isn't Disney. Misplaced Pages is not here to aid megacorporations with their shady obfuscating tactics and damage control, it's here to dispense knowledge. Xamuel (talk) 11:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

— Xamuel (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include This is timely and relevant and newsworthy, and there is no need to suppress or avoid the fact of this donation. Davermont (talk) 13:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

— Davermont (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include. Obviously passes WP:V and WP:RS, and no problems with WP:UNDUE. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include This is an important fact in an ongoing discussion about the role of fox news in the national media. To leave out this fact about it's parent company's behavior would distort that important discussion. It's a fact and it's relevant to the role Fox News plays in the national media.Puzzle123 (talk) — Puzzle123 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include I think it's important this should be included in this article as it's easily referenced and relevant. A major criticism/controversy regarding Fox News is its perceived Republican bias while claiming to be "fair and balanced." Confirmed political donation of a large sum by FN's owner in the run-up to an election is part of that controversy and deserves to be mentioned in that context. IrishPete 15:33, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Leave the politics at home and let the Wiki record the facts. There is every reason to include this, and no reason to have them erased, especially since it appears to be pursued for the PR purposes of the subject. Stop the FUD; a child company IS the parent company under another name. Tubusy (talk) 15:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in month. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant Longtime established user that goes little more than 30 days without making an edit. Really? Again, disruptive. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include giving WP:due weight. If there are enough sources on the controversy as more than a single event, cover it in detail. Otherwise, the single event has gained enough coverage that it warrants a sentence in the controversies section. The exact poll numbers about how they are perceived are undue weight in my opinion and there is plenty of room for one or two sentences about their political donations. We don't have to cover it as a shady practice or judge them for it. Merely point it out and mention that it led to criticism. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Shocked this is even being debated. The2bears (talk) 15:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — The2bears (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It seems that a majority of the people here that wish to include it are under the impression than FNC never addressed this "controversy." In fact, Bret Baier talked about it on Special Report the day the story broke. PokeHomsar (talk) 16:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include A legitimate news item, covered by dozens of ultra-reputable outlets, one that has a great deal of relevance to a complete picture of Fox, why is this even under discussion? I don't even see why this is in the "Controversies" section - there is no controversy as to whether this is true, and I note that both BillGates and WarrenBuffer contain descriptions of their philanthropy, precisely because this is essential to a complete picture of who they are. TomRitchford (talk) 16:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first in 2 months, third in 9 months. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant TomPritchford is an established editor since 2004 with edits to many different subjects. He is neither a new account, nor a new single purpose account. The notes you have left to discredit established editors are misleading and disruptive. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Can we all just take a second to re-read the definition of controversy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasheeke (talk • contribs) 16:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — Rasheeke (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include I would not only suggest including this, but because of this discussion, would recommend adding separate section for News Corporation exclusive items.EmanWilm (talk) 16:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Per the clear and overwhelming consensus of this RfC, I restored the material to the parent article. I'm not sure why this pov fork even exists. As far as I'm concerned it should be merged into the parent article. Dlabtot (talk) 16:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Point of order -- this article is a split due to WP:SIZE, not a POV Fork. If you're curious "why this even exists", please check the history before throwing around the "POV fork" label. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include It is vitally important that this issue be on wikipedia and well-known to the public at large. You cannot let Fox News edit Misplaced Pages at their whim because something paints their organization in a negative light. It would be absolutely irresponsible to Misplaced Pages's charter, just as the entire incident is absolutely irresponsible to journalism in this country, if you were to allow them to scrub this controversy from the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.193.201.178 (talk) 16:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — 71.193.201.178 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include Clearly include this. It is newsworthy and noteworthy (see above list of cited national sources, e.g. those posted by Blaxthos) and should clearly be listed as a "controversy" on a page dedicated to such. It provides evidence of a conflict of interest underlying Fox's reporting, even were one to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were aiming for objectivity. --Spiffulent (talk) 17:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in month. Soxwon (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The most irrelevant "note" yet. Now you're saying that if someone takes THIRTY DAYS off, they are no longer allowed to have a voice on Misplaced Pages? Even further, your claim is a completely false. Spiffulent made edits on August 2 and August 20. User has made edits to several different subjects since May 2010, and is neither a new account nor a single purpose accounts. This is misleading, disruptive, and borderline deserves to be reported to WP:ANI. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include A media organization giving an unprecedented donation in favor of a political party, particularly when it is widely reported as it is, is an event comfortably meeting WP notability guidelines. 'Net (talk) 17:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in 3 months. Soxwon (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Netcrusher88 is an editor that registered in 2002 with edits to many different subjects. He/she is neither a new account, nor a single purpose account. Your notes are disruptive, and I have cleared up every single one of your misleading discrediting attempts. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Not unprecedented. GE has donated well over a half a million dollars to Democrats in the last year as well as about half that to Republicans. NewsCorp itself has historically given more to Democrats, why is it now a controversy? Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include This is one of the most significant controversies regarding Fox News to date. Of course it should go in Misplaced Pages. This place is about preserving knowledge and history, let's do our jobs here. 129.15.131.183 (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC) Edit: Right now, it's in the article as a single line at the end of the "Ownership and Management" section. Is this really what all the fuss was about? — 129.15.131.183 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Really, how can something they did not do be their most significant controversy? Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include The whole point over this is this is both in the correct section, controversies, and that is had reporting from every major news outlet (including fox news http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/18/news-corp-gives-m-republican-governors-association/). What is going on here is putting a known fact that simply calls into question the objectivity of the station and its "Fair and Balanced" motto. --Zyme86 (talk) 10:36, 22 August 2010 (PST) — Zyme86 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

FNC did not make the donation, NewsCorp did and it is included there. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include This is so obvious I would wonder why it's even being discussed but for the fact that I'm well aware of how Misplaced Pages is used by POV advocates. Sooner or later Misplaced Pages is going to have to come up with some other method of editing articles. If all the time and energy devoted to arguing over manufactured controversies like this one (over whether to include this information) were diverted to discovering alternative energy sources, the problem would have been long solved. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It is included on the NewsCorp article. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include For a media corporation to back a political party by making the largest single donation that that party receives is a clear indication of corporate favour, and a direct and unequivocal admission of editorial bias (something that is hardly a secret if you have ever watched more than ten seconds of Fox News). The purpose of Misplaced Pages is as a peer-moderated encyclopedia, not as a PR vehicle for a brand. Should the brand feel guilty, or wish to hide this donation, then perhaps they SHOULDN'T HAVE MADE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Misplaced Pages is a historic record. The donation occurred. It is controversial. Therefore it belongs in the Fox News Controversies page. As it is a controversy regarding Fox News and News Corp. Would Fox News employees prefer a new page entitled News Corp Controversies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.215.1.167 (talk) 17:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — 196.215.1.167 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It is included on the NewsCorp article, you are confusing the two. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include NC is the parent company of FNC. The objectivity of FNC is regularly called into question, and in this context the actions of their parent company are pertinent. Perhaps it would assuage those who deny that this is pertinent if similar text was added to articles for other NC branches, such as WSJ. -Shaggorama (talk) 18:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in 3 months. Soxwon (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant Established user, not new, not single purpose, yadda yadda your note is disruptive. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Should I blame you for everything your parents do? Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Extensive coverage for highly controversial actions by Fox News. Notable and deserves inclusion. If consensus is ignored after this RFC, the 'editor' that removes the statement should receive a block. Vodello (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

FNC did not take this action. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include. That NC, FNC's parent, has made partisan contributions is relevant. -Craig Pennington (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — Craig Pennington (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Little to no edits outside of 9 years ago. Soxwon (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Why? Does NewsCorp control the reporting at FNC? Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include This goes to the very essence of Misplaced Pages. Obviously this story has merit and should be included, if this were about Daily Kos or Huffington, no one would be disputing this, as they have never billed themselves as "fair and balanced"...if Fox is Balanced, some attention needs to be paid to this story in regards to the obvious contradiction. Diarmada 18:57, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you are confusing FNC and NewsCorp. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• While there is some COI issues with the scrubbing coming from a fox news IP address, as an old hand wikipedia editor being asked to come "vote" on an request for comment from offsite, I'm note sure dailykos people get the "not vote" culture. Sure, the million dollar donation is significant right now, but will it be notable compared to the more blatant shows of bias fox news has done in the past? I'm thinking that to not overburden this article, the more wiki way of doing things (at least back in my day) would be to spin off the donation to a "Fox news GOP donation controversy" article and then reference it from either here or the criticism of fox new article (assuming there is one)--Rayc (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Abstain Although FNC did not make the donation directly, their parent corporation did, and they apparently failed to report on it while the rest of the mass media did. It seems like *that* is the controversy, not the donation itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WCarter (talk • contribs) 19:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect, FNC reported it the same day. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Controversy: "a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views" -- If this edit page doesn't constitute an expression of opposing views on the topic, I don't know what does. FNC has said there is no reason the donation would weigh on their news coverage. Others see it as the company putting its money where its mouth is. The donation was enough to garner wide and critical mainstream coverage, as well as continued coverage online. It speaks to the widely-accepted conservative bias at the station -- Or it constitutes parent company's free speech. Controversy. Include. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.142.53 (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — 76.123.142.53 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It is included on the NewsCorp article. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yr right. On that News Corp entry, it should link directly back to this page. The blurb there references its conservative media outlets (the largest and most obvious being FNC): "In anticipation of the 2010 elections, News Corp. donated $1 million to the Republican Governors Association. The move was criticized to be journalistically compromising the already conservative leaning media outlets owned by the corporation." Include. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.142.53 (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Anything cited by a legitimate source that is relevant to the article it is to be placed in should be added, no matter how controversial it is. --75.215.244.58 (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)— 75.215.244.58 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It is included with the NewsCorp article. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Pretty much since its founding, FNC's been accused of being more of a PR organization than impartial news source, and this event is certainly germane to those discussions. Phaseolus (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC) — Phaseolus (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

News Corp is NOT FNC. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Fox news has a factual record of not only supporting a specific party, but works actively with both their journalists and news programming to manufacture news according to their political agenda rather than adherence to their stated objective analysis. This is not the only place or political party where political bias occurs, but is quite notable to the extent that it goes about doing this. The one million dollar donation is an example of this. Nodekeeper (talk) 20:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Prove it. Furthermore, FNC is not the organization that donated. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

You know Arzel, I really think consensus has been reached here. That you are, in fact, wrong. The emperor has no clothes here. Nodekeeper (talk) 21:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include for sure. Other corporate wikipedia pages such as GE, LMCO, MSFT, GOOG, contain information about their political donations, I fail to see what makes Fox special A7244270 (talk) 18:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)— A7244270 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

FNC is not the parent company. This is already included at News Corp which is the the organization which made the donation. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include It is absolutely outrageous to even be arguing this. Of course it should be included as a "controversy". Why? BECAUSE IT IS EXTREMELY CONTROVERSIAL. Sedgoudmoka (talk) 16:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC) (UTC)— Smokedgouda (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Why is it extrememly controversial when previous large donations from others (including FNC) to Democrats are not? Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment With all due respect, Arzel, that is not relevant here. This RfC was started in order to achieve consensus on whether or not NewsCorp's donation of $1 million dollars to a GOP organization is controversial, given that NewsCorp owns Fox News - a major news organization in the United States. Personally, I agree with you: all political donations by the parent companies of major US news organizations should be scrutinized and criticized, whether it be NewsCorp, Time Warner, NBC Universal, etc. But again, that is not the issue here. -BloodDoll (talk) 23:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This RfC was started in order to achieve consensus on whether or not NewsCorp's donation of $1 million dollars to a GOP organization is controversial...

Um...no it wasn't. Whether it is "controversial" is irrelevant to this RfC consideration (but is a good discussion to have). Whether it is relevant under WP:V/WP:Undue for inclusion in "Fox News Controversies" is the issue. Please read the RfC again. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:V has already been shown based on the list of multiple credible sources who have reported on this donation and its implications (PBS, CNN, BusinessWeek, LA Times, NY Times, etc.) See above, near the beginning of this RfC, for a more complete list of sources. WP:Undue is trickier. I note that WP:Undue states that "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public." I would argue the prevalent viewpoint that this is a controversial donation which has implications for Fox News has already been established in multiple reliable sources (again, see the list above). Thus, it satisfies concerns about WP:Undue. Moving on to WP:NPOV, I would suggest that the official responses from both Fox News and NewsCorp be included, which would satisfy NPOV by including both sides of this controversy. -BloodDoll (talk) 02:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:V has already been shown based on the list of multiple credible sources who have reported on this donation and its implications (PBS, CNN, BusinessWeek, LA Times, NY Times, etc.)

I believe the jury is still out on that question. I've not yet read those sources purportedly supporting this issue as warranting inclusion in this article. I will when the brouhaha attendant to this DKOS incident subsides.

I would argue the prevalent viewpoint that this is a controversial donation which has implications for Fox News...

"The prevalent viewpoint" for the purposes of this article, as I'm confident you are aware, will be ascertained by the provision of reliable sourcing reflecting that viewpoint. While I've not yet read the purported sourcing, specific cites (as opposed to generic characterizations) could be determinative. Perhaps I've overlooked them, but I've yet to see one cited.

Moving on to WP:NPOV, I would suggest that the official responses from both Fox News and NewsCorp be included, which would satisfy NPOV by including both sides of this controversy.

I didn't address WP:NPOV as, at this point in the discussion, it is premature and unrelated to the RfC. However, assuming your position prevails, the "source" of the purported controversy, if identifiable in reliable sourcing, should also be included. I believe User:Wikiposter0123 has argued that point quite effectively and correctly.

As to this discussion, it will be lost in this morass of an RfC and will probably be best continued elsewhere. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with BloodDoll that the article should go beyond merely stating the fact of the contribution, but should include a fair presentation of each major point of view about it. Whatever Fox News/News Corp. might say about it would certainly be important, but if they have no comment we might include a comment downplaying the issue from a Republican politician or a right-wing columnist. We should also fairly summarize the criticism. JamesMLane t c 16:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include GE isn't a media corporation. News Corp is. Thus, their journalistic credibility is at stake. Their main arm in the U.S., Fox News, is therefore the natural face of News Corp in the states. Therefore, any political action News Corp takes in the states should be posted and heavily cited on the Fox News page. Eragle (talk) 16:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)(UTC)— Eragle (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strawman argument. Show that FNC played a part in this decision. Arzel (talk) 21:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Come on guys. It's a fact, it's newsworthy, it's in. 67.244.87.198 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:06, 22 August 2010 (UTC). — 67.244.87.198 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Include. The article in The Washington Post singles out Fox News as particularly prone to political influence from the unusually large donation. Notable and relevant. Binksternet (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• Include its newsworthy and the connection has been made to Fox News by multiple reliable sources including the New York Times and the Guardian. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include. It's in the news. It happened. People want to know about it. It's a controversy that involved Fox News. Simple. - GAMEchief (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in 3 weeks. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include. It is public information, as political contributions are required to be. It is newsworthy and relevant in that it shows "fair and balanced" is not balanced. Tangurena (talk) 21:37, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in a month. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant Established user, not new, not single purpose, yadda yadda your note is disruptive. One month.. Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include. Who actually made the donation is irrelevant. Claims about the DNC being the only one complaining are irrelevant. The DNC represents 72 million people. This is about FNC controversies. Looking at the comments here and the included citations, this is a controversy. End of story. Diodisegno (talk) 22:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

— Diodisegno (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include Just the amount of controversy over whether or not it SHOULD be considered controversial makes the case for it being controversial. Basically: News organizations are supposed to be impartial, just giving facts and discussing all sides of the issues at hand. When the organization clearly supports a particular ideology (republicans) it's showing that it's not fair and is in fact biased. ALSO Fox News is owned by NEWS CORP, we're not stupid enough to think that an umbrella corporation is a separate entity. — Antibubbles (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Include A purported balanced news organization gave a million dollars to one party and that party is the one they're (News Corp/Fox News) accused of being in bed with. It should absolutely be included, as it's been a headline controversy pretty much everywhere outside of Fox (who hasn't even bothered to report on it). Sloopydrew (talk) 07:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in a month. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant Established user, not new, not single purpose. Do not leave these notes again. Vodello (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Relevant Thanks for including notes, being established and not new and not a single purpose do not disqualify someone from being a potential meatpuppet. Although WP:MEATPUPPET doesn't discredit a meatpuppet's argument if it is legitimate, it does point out that it often leads people like this person to come make arguments without the facts (like claiming Fox didn't report on this when they were the first people to). If you think his argument is worth repeating(lol) please feel free to argue it yourself or ask the user to come back to elaborate(rofl).Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

If you can't take your own "arguments" seriously with your little "lol" and "rofl"s, why should anyone else? You imply that established users that haven't edited in just 21 days are obvious meatpuppets. I won't respond to your tripe anymore, because obviously you think this is all a funny game. Good luck on trying to make a consensus of 3 plants outweigh a consensus of 80 editors. I'm sure you'll "lol" and "rofl" your way to victory. Vodello (talk) 20:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include Obviously. Talk about a no-brainer. Additionally, those politically motivated editors, left or right, who attempt to whitewash Misplaced Pages or use it to push their political views should be permanently banned from the project. Dlabtot (talk) 15:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

"Arbitrary break"

Discussion irrelevant to the inclusion or exclusion of News Corps donation.(Discussion of concerns related to presumption of meatpuppets)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is amazing. I actually counted over 50 potential meat puppets. (Edit: inserting italicized words for clarification)For the purpose of discouraging future meat puppets I am now citing WP:Meatpuppet For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity. Please continue the debate.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC) Edit: I am not calling anyone in particular a meat puppet, only saying the obvious truth that there are meat puppets present and noting their numbers shouldn't influence the discussion.(Misplaced Pages isn't a vote anyways). All contributors are welcome to make their arguments down below.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC) With utmost respect, I reject that every single wikipedia editor who disagrees with you and states the obvious, that NewsCorps donation is controversial for Fox News, should be labeled a potential "meatpuppet". All of the editors here, even ones that have been here a very long time, should not be dismissed just because several had their attention called to this important discussion.Wingman1400 (talk) 03:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC) Over 50 is more than a few(considering their were only 2 opposing before). Besides I only said they were potential meat puppets. I for instance don't think Blaxthos, SemDem, and the two arguing beneath us are puppets. But if you think there is some diversity of opinion in that massive pile-on that shows that some of them were not puppets then by all means bring up their comments and let's discuss them.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 03:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC) The number doesn't say anything. After the story at DKos, it's only natural that many very real editors weighed in, and many of those may be only part time editors without much experience. Where is your evidence showing these are all new members, joining just for the purpose of influencing this discussion? Imho such baseless accusations are not helpful, and you should show much more restraint. Rememeber WP:Byte and such. If you have any suspicions, don't be lazy, check when those people joined, and bring "offenders" to the attention of the ARC.Gray62 (talk) 09:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC) I have never state that anyone specifically was a meatpuppet. I said to base the arguments made on their merit not by their plurality, and FYI: "of the 61 include votes, 26 are from SPAs, 15 are from editors who have not edited in at least 3 weeks prior to this discussion, and a number have no other edits to this page." Your attempts to distract away from my arguments of UNDUE weight by making up this whole "Wikiposter says everyone is a meatpuppet so lets disregard everything he says" argument is annoying and doesn't help. I have never called anybody specifically a meat puppet or suggested the "whole opposition" are either. If you have an argument to make then make it, but if you want to argue that the meatpuppet pile on means the info should be included despite significant undue weight objections then I redirect you to the quote I made at the top.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC) I respectfully object to the aspersion that I am a meatpuppet. (1) This issue was brought to my attention via the DailyKos posting. (2) I have over 4,000 edits since 2005. (3) Casting this unsubstantiated meatpuppet aspersion is akin to asking "When did you stop beating your wife?" (4) Comments in the original DailyKos posting have pointed out the importance of adhering to wikipedia policies, as well as not engaging in destructive activity (doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but one CAN be a responsible Kossack as well as a responsible wikipedia editor). I posit that the claim of rampant meatpuppetry absent evidence is a blatant smoke screen to derail the discussion. This is a discussion, not a witch hunt. I am appalled at this tactic. --Quartermaster (talk) 12:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Nobody's called you a meat puppet. Nobody has questioned your impartiality(although mine has been repeatedly by you and others) Edits won't give your arguments more weight To make yourself look smart stop copying the examples given at the loaded questions page. I see that exact example given time and time again and consistently incorrectly(as you have now[note: I didn't even ask a question). Calling the claim their are meatpuppets here an "unsubstantiated aspersion" is akin to WP:I didn't see that(that being a massive influx of new users, SPAs, inactive editors, and the daily kos post.) I'm starting a list now of every time I have heard someone incorrectly call something a loaded question and used "When did you stop beating your wife?" as their example. The original comment told editors to come flood here in an effort to stop "paid Fox shills". "Kossack" is that slang term for DailyKos members?(Nobody has said they're unreliable). I would agree that "the claim of rampant meatpuppetry absent evidence is a blatant smoke screen to derail the discussion", but would disagree that this is "absent of evidence", you're not making yourself look more credible. "This is a discussion, not a witch hunt.": I made an arbitrary break, informed the meatpuppets that their numbers would not sway the discussion, and told people to "Please continue the debate." which you and these other two newcomers to the argument are attempting to derail with a witch hunt to portray me as a Macarthy. Not one argument has been made against someoneelses' argument that their argument doesn't count because they are a meat puppet. If you want to contribute to the discussion, then make an argument for your side, and listen to the arguments of the other side.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC) WHO are you to give orders to other editors? You make accusations here about meatpuppetry, but don't come up with ANY evidence! And once more as a reminder, the problem with your accusation iswn't hard to understand. Meaptpuppetry means, NEW editors join in a discussion because of an out-of-wiki call. WHERE are those NEW editors here? Lots of established editors instead, many of them joined before you did! Your efforts to make it look as if their opinions don't count are outrageous. Either cxome up with EVIDENCE for meatpuppetry, or drop that point alltogether. Once again, if an old time editor reads a blog about a wiki issue anywhere, and decides to weigh in, that's NOT meatpuppetry!Gray62 (talk) 08:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages process on this issue will continue despite this derailed RfC...and another section is easily established. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Kk, let's hope not.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include On the subject of whether this belongs on the Fox News Controversies page or not: With major news outlets clearly covering this controversy as being about Fox News, I think that by definition means that this is an appropriate Misplaced Pages page for it to be on. While major news outlets may get their facts wrong on occasion, they *are* part of the makings of a public controversy, so when so many of them cover this as a Fox News related controversy, it's fairly close to a tautology that that is a Fox News related controversy. This seems so blindingly obvious, IMO, that I find it hard to take as credible any other content from commenters who claim that it does not belong on this page; making such claim marks the commenter, it seems to me, as someone who came here specifically to "vote" in defense of Fox News and not think about the merits. I can't see any other explanation for, effectively, arguing the equivalent of up is down. Cos (talk) 02:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, First edit in 3 weeks, fourth in 3 months. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"so when so many of them cover this as a Fox News related controversy"

People have not covered it that way. They have simply covered that the DNC has criticized Fox for this without anybody else of significance(you know, someone other than MediaMatters) weighing in(if there are others then I apologize, but so far I have only seen the DNC). I don't think the criticism by a sole group who is heavily politically biased against Fox is enough to be notable. As for your ringing endorsement of Assume Good Faith, I'll just ignore that.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 02:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include. Arzel endlessly reiterates that this controversy is about News Corp., not Fox News. What matters here is that News Corp. controls Fox News and can influence Fox's coverage. This donation is therefore quite relevant to the main controversy concerning Fox, namely the widespread charge of bias (although the charge is so widespread and so clearly true that it's borderline inaccurate even to call it a controversy). Incidentally, I've changed the heading of this thread by inserting the word "alleged" per the relevant Misplaced Pages guideline ("Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it."). JamesMLane t c 02:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Democratic Govenors, and a lesser amount to Republicans. GE has donated hundreds of thousands of dollars more to Democrats than Republicans. NC has historically given more to Democrats than Republicans. Now NC has given a larger amount to Republicans and it is a huge controversy for FNC? Sorry, I don't buy it. Most of the comments above has been worded to suggest that FNC donated money or that FNC did not report the event. Neither is true, thus my "endlessly" reiterating is correct. It is nice to see other regular editors here supporting this bastardization of WP policies though. It is also a nice afirmation of the exceedingly large general left bias on WP. Does it even bother you that the general RfC process has been hijacked? Or do you simply agree with it because it supports your general belief? Arzel (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Exclude: This incident was never reported by itself as a controversy but always cradled within the over-the-top criticism by the Democratic National Convention who made it a public spectacle with their leader's show pony demand for Fox to now have a disclaimer on their shows of conservative bias. If tomorrow they demand Fox has a disclaimer warning for Cabbage Bias because it turns out News Corps has a huge stake in cabbage, that will get a lot of coverage, but would belong in DNC's article. The fact that News Corps made this donation is irrelevant, and would belong in an article about businesses afraid of Obama's anti-corporation policies, not on their article. One political group attacking Fox for the camera's is hardly relevant and is a case of WP:RECENTISM, especially during a slow season in news reporting where everything is reported now matter how shallow. This is just one in a long line of manufactured, find a complaint someone or group has levied against Fox and then make a section for it in their article. If this is still being talked about in 6 months then include it then.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 03:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC) (Note - this is the second !vote from this editor)

Is it really fair to vote twice?72.62.72.70 (talk)

EVEN if the controversy is manufactored, which is almost impossible for you to judge, the fact that so many prominent voices weighed in, and the huge reporting in the media makes this an issue that should be mentioned here.Gray62 (talk) 10:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Gray62. The issue is notability. Wikiposter0123 is implicitly conceding notability but arguing that this shouldn't be notable because it's "manufactured". The fact is that prominent politicians and national party committees all have some power to influence the agenda; they harp on things that they hope will become notable, and sometimes they succeed. JamesMLane t c 11:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"so many prominent voices weighed in"

That's my problem, the fact that only the DNC has weighed in with people reporting the DNC's criticism. No other prominent voices have made this criticism(at least that I have heard of)

"Wikiposter0123 is implicitly conceding notability"

Lindsey Lohan got criticized for having Fuck You written on her middle finger nail at her trial, this was even more heavily broadcasted, that doesn't make it notable, that and this criticism are likely to be forgotten in 6 months not making them notable.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include, this seems relevant to the article but maybe put it within it's own section on the page. I am not a meat puppet.--Craigboy (talk) 05:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I've never read the Daily Kos in my life. Given that the international press have made the link makes it totally relevant. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Include! The donation issue should be reported in legth at the News Corp story, sure, BUT the reaction by Fox News, and especially the criticism about their reporting, and the missing disclaimer, belongs HERE.Gray62 (talk) 09:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Note, first edit in 3 months. Soxwon (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Where does this arbitrary break come from? I don't know this from RfA and such. Doesn't this screw the count up a bit? Gray62 (talk) 09:53, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This RfA is corrupted by the seemingly endless parade of Daily Kos editors, and a HUGE WP:CANVASS effort. I suspect fewer than 4 or 5 people additional people would have come here to comment if not for the Daily Kos based of previous history involving these types of disputes and various pages. Also it is not a vote. Arzel (talk) 13:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

So, what? If the media reports about a Misplaced Pages issue, more part time editors log in to see what's going on. Only natural. This doesn't invaluate their opinions. And this is not a vote, but a show of a strong consensus, with only few opposing voices, to INCLUDE!Gray62 (talk) 16:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, so many people who do not know what is going on. The "media" did not comment on this. SemDem went to the Daily Kos and posted a blog telling people to come here and vote for it's inclusion, after that we had an influx of 50 people come here, post nearly identical posts all vying for inclusion. WP:MEATPUPPET is a violation of policy.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Exclude - Reiteration of previous Comment - Simple, this is not News Corp. It has recieved little attention outside the partisan bickering from the left. It has recieved less attention than many of the other supposed controversies of FNC. The biggest reason why this exploded was because of a false report that FNC would not report on it, when in fact they were one of the first. Similar media companies have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to Democrats, and indeed, NewsCorp had donated more to Democrats than Republicans prior to this, yet those donations don't seem to be controversial. The donation is already included within the NewsCorp article. I find it absurd for the many meatpuppets to come here and say that this is the most controversial thing that FNC has ever done, when they had NOTHING to do with it. Arzel (talk) 13:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC) (Note - this is the second !vote from this editor)

  1. What policy supports your belief that we evaluate source material based on your personal analysis ("partisan bickering from the left")?
  2. Why do you continue to try and equate donations by employees and donations by a corporation? Do you not understand the difference between the two, conceptually and legally?
  3. What sources (of the ones proposed above) do you believe are focusing on "a false report that FNC would not report on it"?
  4. What policy do you think states that editor analysis (as in, your statement "the biggest reason why this exploded...") is at all relevant to evaluating sources?
  5. Why are you !voting twice?

  Thanks. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 16:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

  1. WP:COAT
  2. Leagally they are no different.
  3. I never said that. Many of the Daily Kos meatpuppets are making that claim because the Daily Kos post made that claim, I was simply trying to correct the miss-statement that they keep repeating. Makes it quite easy to spot the meatpuppets by the way. Note the obvious DK angle below.
  4. Obvious, the issue here exploded because for some reason the Daily Kos people thought that FNC was the company that made the donation and that FNC isn't reporting on it. The situation here exploded because of that.
  5. Not a second vote, it appeared that we were starting over because of all the canvassing meatpuppetry.Arzel (talk) 00:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

  "Little attention"? Quite to the contrary, there are countless media reports, among them stories in the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Politico, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, you name it. ONLY Murdoch companies barely mention it! And it's obvious that this is rele3vant as a Fox News controversy. The Democratic Governor's Association directly addressed Roger Ailes with their demand that their shozuld be a disclaimer in Fox' reporting from now on! Sry, but your arguments don't hold water. Gray62 (talk) 16:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

First of all, the article doesn't invite or direct anyone to edit anything. It only brought this discussion to the attention of editors, many of them long-time established wiki editors. Considering that Fox News has compensated personnel to scrub their own entries, your outrage is misplaced. Further, I think it is simply offensive and counter-productive to attack every opposing viewpoint as a "meat puppet" simply because the majority opposes the suppression of information. This has received attention on every major media outlet, let alone Fox News, which makes it a controversy in and of itself. Yes, others have donated...but this was an historic donation by a media organization and the single largest contribution from a private company to the RGA. The fact that Fox News won't put a disclaimer up when they cover the races and refuse to offer airtime to any Democratic gubernatorial opponent at the very least makes this issue "controversial" for Fox News.Wingman1400 (talk) 16:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include - Goes to demonstrate conservative systemic bias in Fox News Channel. Certainly deserves to be in Fox News Channel controversies if not in Fox News Channel itself. Note, I was not canvassed and am not a meatpuppet. Someone should go through and tabulate how many editors responding to this RfC had over 50 edits. NickCT (talk) 16:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Weak include The standard that should be applied, I think, is whether the press has covered this as a significant controversy. Misplaced Pages can not be put in a position of judging the validity of the concern (except insofar as the independently reported facts may be relevant), but merely reporting on the existence of the controversy. How the donation is being covered in the news is a matter of research, however we can all agree, I should hope that many press outlets have covered the Democratic Party's protestations, which may be enough to warrant inclusion as such. If evidence in reliable sources can be found that the controversy is being opposed by folks other than just the Democratic party and it's affiliated politicians, this should be mentioned too. --TeaDrinker (talk) 17:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• 'WP:NOTNEWS

News reports. Misplaced Pages considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion.
This criticism got less coverage than criticism of Lindsay Lohan having "Fuck you" written on her middle finger nail at her trial. Neither has lasting appeal, if it did then more notable people would've criticized Fox for this other than the DNC. If you can find significant organizations(not MediaMatters) or individuals(not affiliated with DNC) that have criticized them for this, maybe a nonpartisan business ethics group or media ethics group, or if this is continued to be talked about six months from now then it should be included. Until then addition of this would just be a lot more Soap in the already incredibly inappropriate criticism articles.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment Thanks for the reminder of guidelines. I think we agree that something appearing as a flash in a pan, or ephemeral coverage, have no place in Misplaced Pages. However this is something which has been discussed pretty widely, and is something which people in 10 years would likely be interested in, I should think. WP:NOT would indeed exclude a tidbit of celebrity apparel, even though it receives some coverage in the news. However there's no question in my mind that this donation has surpassed that mark. I am uncomfortable with your suggestion that DNC criticism should not be included simply on that basis. If it is a case of a partisan political attack, it should be included and described as such. It should not be our position to decided whether this is Watergate or Swiftboating; we should merely report the notable criticism and the relevant (and reliably sourced) facts related to it. --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Criticism by one partisan source does not qualify as a controversy. If this was a major thing then other news organizations would have come out and condemned Fox News. A temporary flash of coverage does not equal notability, and your presumption that this will be talked about 10 years from now is a violation of WP:CRYSTALBALL. Unless the significance is completely obvious like China attacking the U.S., items under disputed notability should wait until they have been further shown to be notable. That will be seen if this is continued to be brought up and regularly addressed, and not just being the 15 minutes of fame produced by the DNC showboating for the press.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Check those policies and guidelines again: WP:CBALL is not applicable here. While you review that, check over WP:EVENT too: the likely future recollection of an event is very much part of determining notability. The notability of this event is firmly established; I am frankly puzzled that you bring it up. There is no question that at the very least the DNC has made an accusation which has received significant levels of independent coverage from national and international media. This is not a grey area; this is clear cut. --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"This may include effects on the views and behaviors of society and legislation. For example, the Murder of Adam Walsh ultimately led to the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act, among other notable subjects."

What's happened here is that you want to take the Murder of Adam Walsh(News Corp donation) and mention in it the criticism of pedophilia(Criticism of Fox News) article before the passage of the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act(future criticism of News Corp donation).

"It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable."

In this case no other group has come out to criticize the News Corps donation. Only the DNC. We will have to wait and see if others pick up on it or if it becomes a popular talking point, for instance, in the upcoming elections.

"Reporting with little thematic connection or contextual information, or lacking insight or critique, is often considered to be routine reporting."

No real insight or critique in these reports.

". Events that are only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion, are likely not suitable for an encyclopedia article. "

The list of reasons goes on

"Even in respected media, a 24-hour news cycle and other pressures inherent in the journalism industry can lead to infotainment and churnalism without proper fact checking, and they may engage in frivolous "silly season" reporting. Some editors may take into account perceived media bias, such as Missing white woman syndrome, when assessing notability."

Bias of those reporting against their main competitor, plus it is the summer, real news stories are down and sensationalist comments like those asking for a disclaimer are reported more often.

Try going to Wikinews.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts to follow policy and guidelines, however this is clearly a matter which has reached national and international attention. To suggest that something which has received substantive coverage on nearly all national news outlets (save Fox), and substantial coverage in the international English language press is not notable would be to shave this encyclopedia to a mere smattering of articles. The only question in my mind is how to characterize the controversy, not whether it exists or has achieved a level of notability sufficient for inclusion. --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"To suggest that something which has received substantive coverage on nearly all national news outlets (save Fox), and substantial coverage in the international English language press is not notable would be to shave this encyclopedia to a mere smattering of articles."

First off, Fox did cover it, they were the first people to report on the News Corps donation leading me to believe that perhaps you have not read through the whole discussion. Secondly, I am not proclaiming that wide press coverage alone is not enough to merit inclusion I'm citing known Misplaced Pages guidelines. A few points made:

• "Anticipation of notability may be mistaken. Many events portrayed by the media as major on the day they occur quickly become only a footnote. "
• "The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance. Although notability is not temporary, meaning that coverage does not need to be ongoing for notability to be established, a burst or spike of news reports does not automatically make an incident notable. "
• "The general guideline is that coverage must be significant and not in passing. In-depth coverage includes analysis that puts events into context, such as is often found in books, feature length articles in major news magazines (like Time, Newsweek, or The Economist), and TV news specialty shows (such as 60 Minutes or CNN Presents in the US, or Newsnight in the UK). Reporting with little thematic connection or contextual information, or lacking insight or critique, is often considered to be routine reporting. "

Meh, there's more, but you can go there and read it if you want. Misplaced Pages is loaded with unnecessary information because of recentism and because people think everything that gets a spark of coverage is notable. They're not, we shouldn't even have criticism articles.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

FYI, JamesMLane of the 61 include votes, 26 are from SPAs, 15 are from editors who have not edited in at least 3 weeks prior to this discussion, and a number have no other edits to this page. Meatpuppetry at its finest, plain and simple. Soxwon (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Soxwon, I quoted the actual Misplaced Pages guideline. It reads, "Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it." You're applying a revised version: "A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it, unless Soxwon thinks that one specific view is clearly correct, in which case the heading may convey that view." I'd be grateful if you could refer me to the discussion in which there was consensus for that revision of the guideline. In the meantime, I'm restoring the heading to some semblance of neutrality. (Note that I'm not changing it to "Arbitrary break so right-wing POV pushers can continue their ideological crusade to suppress inconvenient facts". I mention that possibility only in the hope that it will help you understand why the Misplaced Pages community has endorsed neutral headings as the best way to go.) JamesMLane t c 20:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

To prevent any further distraction over arguing about this and return to discussion regarding inclusion I have changed the title to "Arbitrary break" with quotation marks to note the irony that the break clearly isn't arbitrary, but specifically placed to come after the "alleged" meatpuppet pile-on.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's all write in bold! Soxwon, is it your contention that consensus is actually to exclude this information? Also, is that with or without counting the fact that both Wikiposter and Arzel !voted twice?' //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Of note heres some more international coverage from the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11014504 and South China Morning Post (Hong Kong) - http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=1d1e672ad958a210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&ss=Asia+%26+World&s=News. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

We are restarting the voting process anew down here We just assumed the voting process had started over, thus the double vote. Because votes don't actually matter these are really more just statements of our side. Nobody has indicated that there is consensus to either include or exclude, and by the way, Soxwon was not counting the votes, he was mentioning the numbers of likely meat puppets, so why you took that as a count of votes it seems to me is because you are perhaps a little to vote orientated.

Now can we please stop talking in bold?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Given multiple reliable sources have commented on this and mentioned Fox News it seems worthy of at least a sentence without being WP:UNDUE. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's wait until the meatpuppets have abandoned their crusade before we work on wording a statement according to wikipedia policy. Soxwon (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

NICE...everyone who disagrees with you will be dismissed as a meatpuppet. That is REAL good to know. All I need to do if there is a negative post on Obama, no matter how factual (such as he was born in Hawaii), is invite people to join the discussion on RedState. Then I can get it get it taken out!Wingman1400 (talk) 22:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Let me repeat my statement with relevant portions highlighted: Let's wait until the meatpuppets have abandoned their crusade before we work on wording a statement according to wikipedia policy. If you had read my above !vote, you would notice I have changed my vote to "include." However, I'm more than a little leery of trying to put together a statement that could be contentious with people who don't understand basic policy (wikipedia is not a vote, we go by what sources say, Meatpuppetry etc.) lurking and trying to "fix" it as we work on it. Your opinions are more than welcome, but it would be more beneficial if the actual wording came from those who have experience and have a more thorough knowledge of policy. (And I'm sorry if I come across as elitist, but honestly, looking back at my first edits I find myself constantly cringing) Soxwon (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"Given multiple reliable sources have commented on this and mentioned Fox News it seems worthy of at least a sentence without being WP:UNDUE." Multiple sources have reported the DNC's commentary on this without endorsement or analysis of it. Given that only one source has actually criticized Fox for this, and since that source is the DNC, that is undue weight. "NICE...everyone who disagrees with you will be dismissed as a meatpuppet. That is REAL good to know." Nice, every argument against you will be strawmanned into being an argument that your a meat puppet and then argued against from that position without actually arguing against the actual arguments which have little to nothing to do with claiming others are meat puppets.(with out the obvious knowledge that of the 50+ pile-on some are definitely meat puppets).Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Despite Wikiposter0123's statement, we are not "restarting the vote" (as if it's a "vote"). I have requested administrative assistance. With regards to all the claims of "meatpuppetry":

1. cum hoc ergo propter hoc - There is no way to know if and/or how many of the respondents commented based solely due to an offsite article. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that someone from the other side made the post in the hopes of creating a chance to discredit an RFC that wasn't going to go his way. In the end, it does not matter anyway.
2. Only by lawyering can one use the "meatpuppet" claim in this context. WP:MEATPUPPET intends to stop people from going to their friends and having them commit a proxy vote with no involvement -- going to school and asking your best friend to go !vote on something. In this case, an offsite post simply pointed out the RFC and did not include any sort of instructions of what to say or how to participate. There's a big difference between "hey, do this" and "hey, look at this".
3. The only way the cries of meatpuppetry could possibly be relevant is if this was strictly a vote count. RFCs are not evaluated based on the number of votes, but rather by the quality of the discussion. WP:NOTVOTE and other polices state "this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

//Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

• Strong exclude - This issue is about News Corp not Fox News Channel. The above attempt to rig this RFC is shocking and a blatant violation of WP policies. I fear including this issue in the article now will simply encourage this sort of disgraceful behaviour in the future. It should be left off. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC) (Note - this is the second !vote from this editor)

• Include - The perceived problem with the donation is precisely over the connection with FOX News et al. This is made abundantly clear in news reports on the matter. un☯mi 16:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The major problem is that of weight.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include - DNC and News Corp. brought Fox News into this; the DNC by questioning Fox's objectivity and News Corp. by stating their donation has no bearing on their journalist. Clearly there's a conflict. There are mainstream sources to support that, and it's worth, at least, a sentence. Akerans (talk) 18:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"Clearly there's a conflict", mainstream sources don't seem to support this, see:

Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP

News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced," and Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going. But in a general sense, other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet, so it's anbody's (sic) guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.

UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox, not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.

Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

My assessment has nothing to do with MMfA or the incorrect comments from editors on this page. I was basing my assessment on the lead paragraph, and what the sources are saying. The lead states, "Fox News Channel has been the subject of many allegations concerning journalism ethics and standards." The most recent concern being from the DNC, questioning Fox's objectivity based on the donation of its parent company News Corp. When I said there's a conflict, I meant this clearly falls within what the article is about, and the sources support its inclusion. Sorry for not making that clear in my original post. Akerans (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

My argument however isn't that this isn't the appropriate topic. This definitely is a criticism of Fox News, it however isn't a very significant one with only two members of the DNC criticizing them for it. A criticism is only significant if it gets support from a significant number of people, or begins to become a common talking point against Fox. That is why it isn't encyclopedia worthy. Sorry for misinterpreting what you meant by "the conflict".Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter, can you please point us to the policy you believe supports your definition of "significant"? What policy supports your contention that "criticism is only significant if it gets support from a significant number of people"? It is my understanding that policy bases significance on the number of reliable sources that publish the issue (not how many people have voiced the criticism). Please explain. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"It is my understanding that policy bases significance on the number of reliable sources that publish the issue" Funny, so Lady Gaga is the most significant thing in the universe. It is my understanding of policy that significance is determined by having an lasting effect on something, continued coverage, or is significantly held to be significant. It seems your understanding of policy believes a short flash of news coverage by a wide range of sources proves significance, it doesn't.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Include. That the controversy has been presented, not as a corporate donation to the RGA by NewsCorp, but as evidence of Fox News' conservative bias, means that it should be mentioned on the Fox News page. The controversy need not be of FN's making for it to be an FN controversy. There are many, many reliable sources that say things to the effect of "Fox News' parent company makes $1M donation to RGA", etc. The controversy has been linked to Fox News not by us, but by those reliable sources. It is not POV-pushing to include mention of such, but rather it would be whitewashing to exclude it. As long as we stick to a neutral description of the controversy, I can see no valid rational to exclude. Throwaway85 (talk) 05:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, this discussion has for the large part transferred to the bottom of the page in a different sub section entitled continued discussion, please go there if you are looking for the continued arguments after this concerning the News Corp donation.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Include' A significant point of view -- one that is both noteworthy enough to be reported, and is appropriately related to this controversies article -- is that Fox News holds a conservative bias in both its news coverage and political commentary, while maintaining that it is fair and balanced (holding no bias to any political party). If anyone will try to contest that this point of view exists, and is noteworthy enough to warrant inclusion in this article, I will be happy to provide many sources other than HP and Media Matters. While the donation is from News Corp, it's significance (and the only reason it received any attention) is because News Corp owns Fox News. The name on the check doesn't mean a thing -- only how the donation has become noteworthy. — Mike :  tlk  04:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Keep Article Locked And Prevent Removal Of Cited Sources

The page was finally locked just a few moments ago because of constant changes but I fear that people would make an account just to try and remove the most "controversial" element of this article. Therefore I'm suggesting that a bot or something be assigned to revert any "blanking" of relevant texts that are cited by a legitimate source. At least until the heat cools down. --75.215.244.58 (talk) 19:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, how about making an account yourself? Gray62 (talk) 09:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

People being directed to "edit" this article

It should be noted and taken into account that the website "Daily Kos" is sending it's visitors to this article - just in case anyone is curious about the sudden, massive influx of would be "editors":

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/21/895233/-UPDATED:-Fox-News-Scrubbing-Misplaced Pages-Entry-on-$1-Mil.-Donation- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.188.44 (talk) 23:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Graci. WP:Meatpuppeting anyone?

For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity.

And now I'm hungry.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Nowhere in your link are people being directed to "edit" this article. 95.208.9.102 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC).

They're being directed to support this change on the talk page, That's called WP:MEATPUPPETing.

Agree. The DKos blog linked above simply invites people to join the discussion on this talk page. It does not tell people to make edits or support one side. How is that WP:Meatpuppet? In addition, I (and other editors, I'm sure) resent being labeled a meatpuppet simply because we have argued for inclusion in the ongoing RfC. Verges on Wikilawyering, really. On the flip side, I have seen several IPs and suspected SPAs in the RfC. Those may be properly labeled as meatpuppets, but not established editors like myself who have contributed to the discussion. Let's stop beating people with a Wiki policy stick simply because they don't agree with a specific position in the ongoing RfC. -BloodDoll (talk) 08:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

After it was found out the author of it changed it to "invite people to join the discussion". It seems you didn't read the original post which drew the people here..Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

And what about WP:Goodfaith? Didn't you read the note at the start of this discussion? Accusing others to be meatpuppets, without any real evidence that they only joined for this discussion, ISN'T good faith! Be careful, it may be YOU who will have to answer to the arbitraitors, if you continue in this way! Gray62 (talk) 10:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ha, ha, ha. No real evidence of meat puppeting? Please tell another joke.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

As long as you are quoting DKos...how about this article: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/14/212516/918

Calling for unpaid wikipedia editors in an open forum to contribute to the discussion..what a scandal. Fox News has compensated shills paid to scrub wikipedia from IP addresses at its headquarters...but that is okay.Wingman1400 (talk) 23:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper and we need to know the signifance of stories before including them. That may mean that Misplaced Pages may not be the best source for what happened in the last 24 hours. TFD (talk) 03:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That $1 million donation happened yesterday? Tom Reedy (talk) 12:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A donation of a cool one million dollar IS significant. And the significance also shows in the wide reporting about the issue. I don't see any valid reason not to include the strongly referenced fact in the article about Fox news controversies. To continuosly delete those edits is very close to vandalism, and imho admins should lock this article after including the edit. Gray62 (talk) 08:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"Would be editor" is rich, coming from an unsigned (!) IP. You sure you are an editor at all? Gray62 (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

There's no need for personal level sniping, Gray62. I think it wise to have a heads up for any unusual amount of "incoming" regardless of the directing source. When someone posts a "go here and jump into the fray" link somewhere it's easy to note those using it via referrer logging. I would assume most people find orchestrated convergences to be counter-productive. I might also point out it's quite easy for a person to do what called an "IP lookup", it's a very simple matter to convert a numeric address to ISP/physical location. I imagine there is even an article here explaining how it's done. Failing that, a quick googling of the phrase "IP lookup" should be of assistance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.183.252 (talk) 13:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, as a part time editor, who isn't here every day, I welcome it if reports in the media or blogs alert me about controversial issues going on here. And, excuse me pls, I don't do "personal level sniping", I'm simply pointing out that it's quite hypocritical to complain about "would be editors" when you yourself post as an IP, and don't even sign your stuff! And as for the "IP-Lookup" issue, well, I'm an established, even though occasional, editor here, and I have already been subject of a sockpuppet investigation once that proved I'm genuine and nobody's fool. Hmm, but how come you know so much about this, but post as an unsigned IP here? If there is reason to be suspicious about someone, why not about you? Gray62 (talk) 13:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

"complain about "would be editors" when you yourself post as an IP. If there is reason to be suspicious about someone, why not about you?"

I believe if you check you will see I have made no "complaints", but have rather just noted the reality. You are more than welcome implementing whatever term with which may feel more comfortable with re: those with an axe to grind who are directed here. e.g "drive by editors", "one-off editors", 'axe grinding editors", "water carrying editors", etc. & ad infinitum. It's the same as a if a site with an axe to grind were sending it's visitors to the Albert Gore, Jr. entry discussion to rant and rage about allegations of prostitution. It's just common sense to take note when such things occur. I understand you may be extremely suspicious to near paranoiac due to not knowing how to convert a numerical IP to the verbose, more literal version. But you should realize that the admins at Misplaced Pages just have no such problem. While you are most welcome to indulge in fantasies of waging a mighty personal battle against Rupert Murdoch or whatever imagined bogeymen, I assure you the reality is just a wee bit different. However, if you have issues or suspect plots due any totally unrelated (to the real-world issues & questions people are discussing here) issues due some anger, frustration or whatever, please feel free to demand an in-depth "investigation" indeed, if it will calm your nerves. But the best advice, I would suggest, is in dropping the emotionalism and in learning to take am objective, a-emotive position - whether it be on the question here on on any other issues that may arise in Misplaced Pages. I wish you all the best, but I just have really no interest in cluttering discussions here with people's personal issues. Don't mean to be rude, just to the point. Good luck and goodbye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.183.252 (talk) 05:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"The DKos blog linked above simply invites people to join the discussion on this talk page."

By way off addendum - it should be noted the particular "dairy" I cited and offered a linked to was *very* heavily re-edited after it was made mention of here. It suddenly went from "go here to get Fox News!" to "well, conservatives and liberals should discuss it". I posit such 180's should be viewed with a ("an"? whatever) very skeptical eye. If I saw the same type of shell-game switcharoo from some crank Freeper (Freerepublic.com user) it would be just as deceptive and odious. If anything, I believe a lesson to be learned here is "beware any sudden influx urging editing being applied so-and-so". Unfortunately, there is just so much talking points BS being pushed by the left and the right. Makes one almost yearn for "middle-ground talking points" - but that's a personal digression/indulgence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.183.252 (talk) 06:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Another reading of the changing of the original diary (as one who is familiar with the DailyKos hive mind) is that responsible wikipedia editors who are ALSO kossacks contacted the diarist on the back channel and chided him for the tone of the diary, explaining wikipedia policy, etc. DailyKos diaries are often changed, not in order to hide something, but to more responsibly address an (initially) misaddressed contention. It WAS irresponsible to request kossacks to use wikipedia to "get Fox News," and the diarist was convinced to edit the diary to be more responsible, and respectful, of how wikipedia works. DailyKos is a dynamic blog site which engages in self-correction as new facts come to light - sort of like wikipedia, no? --Quartermaster (talk) 12:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

no.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually yes. DailyKos is a dynamic political blog, but a high visibility, high quality, and influential one. And it's framework is like a Wiki, so yes corrections can be made. DailyKos can't be used directly as a source, but it has great value as an news aggregator with links to sources that can be used. — Becksguy (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"Actually yes. Conservapedia is a dynamic political blog, but a high visibility, high quality, and influential one. And it's framework is like a Wiki, so yes corrections can be made. Conservapedia can't be used directly as a source, but it has great value as an news aggregator with links to sources that can be used."If Becksguy was a conservative (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, I think your statement above is factually incorrect. Current Alexa traffic analysis (last 6 months) shows that DailyKos's traffic rank to be 1,189th in the US, Conservapedia's rank is 14,176th. Also, DK is linked to by 12,021 sites, while Conservapedia is linked to by 1,654 sites. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

And FreeRepublic is 1,128th in the US. How about we stick with sources that we can agree are neutral and reliable? Soxwon (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Request for evidence of DailyKos manipulation of article

Independent of this discussion, is there any evidence of manipulation or edit warring of the article itself by meatpuppets (i.e., the evil denizens of DailyKos)? It seems like the accusations of meatpuppetry (which I regard as a spurious smoke screen over the issue of the whether or not to include a million dollar contribution by Fox News to the GOP) are ignoring the fact that, maybe, these evil denizens of DailyKos aren't actually disrupting Misplaced Pages as alleged? Lots of accusations, a paucity of evidence. --Quartermaster (talk) 23:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Who cares. Your pursuit only creates more smoke than light. Let's get on with the discussion. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Strawman smoke screen. Nobody has made the claim of disruptive editing or edit warring by meatpuppets.

Stupid section. Just get on with the discussion.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

"Stupid"? What about your calls to keep this discussion civil? And it was YOU who started this meatpuppet nonsense. No evidence for this so far. Where are the NEW editors who allegedly joined only for the purpose of influencing the discussion? Most here have been longer at WP than you!Gray62 (talk) 08:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

We gave up on the Fox News main page, and simply added a balanced blurb on the "Fox News Controversies" page, which even INCLUDED the official Fox News and News Corps defense of the donation. It was removed. The discussion page and the history page on the "Fox News Controversies" section is funny. First the argument was the controversy was "minor", then the argument was it wasn't covered by any other media. When a wikipedia editor listed EVERY media outlet that covered it, then the argument was it required "consensus" from everybody before it could be in the article...and the latest arguement? That NEWS CORPS is not really Fox News so it doesn't belong there. Yeah...even though the whole controversy is around FN bias, and how they fail to even address the issue, and the fact that they won't allow ANY Dem governor to come on their show and discuss the matter, etc. Right now, the scandal is scrubbed on Misplaced Pages. A REQUEST FOR COMMENTS forum has been called to resolve this matter in the talk section (bottom):http://en.wikipedia.org/... It's essentially two guys against Fox...so if you have an account on Misplaced Pages, please contribute and let your voice be heard! Misplaced Pages is always a top search result of just about any topic, so this does matter--Fox knows it.

The talk went crazy after this was posted at the DK. WP:DUCK Arzel (talk) 00:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Failed attempt at establishing facts + continued discussion concerning the News Corp donation(go to aptly named subsection to get there)

Because I see a lot of misconceptions going around by newcomers not familiar with the topic.

Currently nothing can be agreed upon.

Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You got several things wrong, from the use of "meatpuppet" to the recitation of facts. I suggest that your self-anointed "education" of people "new to this page" is presumptuous and unnecessary, and certainly doesn't show that you're here in the spirit of WP:AGF (one of the five pillars). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

So newspapers like the Guardian - based in the UK - are just copying the Democrats. Yup sounds totally believable. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Your lack of specifically mentioning anything wrong makes your argument sound so convincing. Eraserhead, anybody reading what I said can see that your post is so off topic that it borderlines trolling.

If there is something wrong, then say what is wrong and why it is wrong, don't argue just because you think the facts are POV.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I think a group of people, paid or not, being asked off wiki to come join and support a cause is the very definition of meatpuppetry. However the goal is never to determine who is and is not a meatpuppet, it always should center on the arguments and discussion made, regardless of the source. Piling on support does little but frustrate people. In my experience, new WP users (being unfamiliar with the policy, guidelines, and goals of the project) are not likely to make particularly compelling arguments.

I should also note, the use of paid editors by any organization is frowned upon (although the formal policy on this is unclear). Editors who are paid are encouraged to disclose their potential conflicts of interest, and those who attempt to subvert the integrity of the encyclopedia (paid or not) may be permanently blocked. Such editing can also be a source of embarrassment for the company hiring the individual as well, if editors try to circumvent ordinary process to accomplish their aims. However it is poor form to accuse new users of being either paid shills or meatpuppets without cause (beyond their simple advocacy of a particular point of view).

I would contest your third point; you yourself have contested this by suggesting that extensive coverage was the result of media disapproval. This claim was repeated here, for example. I would further suggest that you're list is grossly misleading, in that it suggests the criticism is only permissible if it originates from the media themselves. Indeed, notable criticism is reported even when it is leveled primarily by political partisans. Consider, for example, the swiftboat nonsense. It is inarguably notable, even though no one other than political shills were making the claims. Moreover the is no blanket prohibition of citation of material from DailyKos; it simply does not speak strongly to the notability. Nevertheless, it can be cited as a reliable report of what the DailyKos said about the donation. Overall, your statements are narrowly worded to be technically correct, but when ordinarily construed, would be misleading. I would suggest, therefore, your list is sorely lacking as advice to new users and they would be well advised to ignore it. --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Afaik you can only talk of meatpuppetry if NEW members join because of an outside call! Where are those new members here? To call for OLD member, established editors, to weigh in at a discussion is allowed.Gray62 (talk) 08:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, through numerous RFCs, those outside of the traditional media (MMFA, HP, Daily Kos, and what have you) have been designated as needing to be judged on a case by case basis. While other, more mainstream sources are preferred, that does not mean they are to be used exclusively (though caution should be used to avoid using the non-traditional sources excessively). Soxwon (talk) 23:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed also that they can be used on a case by case basis. However, the DailyKos did not comment on this, a user wrote a diary entry on this. Not the same.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I included your argument to #3 number "Some users have claimed though that by reporting on the DNC's criticism, the news organizations are themselves endorsing it." Am I writing this correctly? "in that it suggests the criticism is only permissible if it originates from the media themselves." I don't remember saying this, it definitely was not my intention to suggest it. Many members have been implying that the media is endorsing the criticism by reporting on it, that was my attempt. If you're reading more into my words other then what they are actually saying, then I can't help if you are mislead. Nonetheless I have changed the title. "Moreover the is no blanket prohibition of citation of material from DailyKos; it simply does not speak strongly to the notability. " A user's post(mentioned diary entry to be more specific) is not a statement by the Daily Kos. I said nothing about a blanket ban on their words. It seems people reading this have assumed I am subliminally adding sub-text to my statements to imply gross mischaracterizations of what I am actually saying.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I think since you have a very strong opinion on this matter, you may not be the best person to give advice to new users. I think your phrasing on point 3, for instance, still leans toward a particular point of view. PBS reporting the coverage simply notes that the donation "has drawn fire from journalism schools, ethics analysts and progressive political organizations this week." I think setting up a list of points to agree or disagree with is a good starting point for a discussion, but I'm not sure this list fits that bill. --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

(to clarify I am referring to both sides)I think no one here has any logic, sees elaborate schemes and second meanings behind everything other people and news sources say instead of just listening to the facts. Since it appears nothing has been agreed upon I just erased everything. Great starting point.

Any suggestions?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to concur with TeaDrinker on this point... especially considering what you just wrote, which was posted whilst I was writing this very message. While still assuming WP:AGF on your part, your phrasing and tone seem a bit brusque; almost as if you had a bone to pick in much the same way you're accusing these "meatpuppets" of having one. Looking briefly through the list of proponents of including this in the Fox News article above, I see a great many of user who have contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages. ARS members, random page editors, one user who it looked like has been working on creating articles listed in the Articles To Be Created listings. This, again, does not credit your position. I understand your concerns, but I would suggest bringing a more helpful tone to this discussion if you'd like it to hold more merit with some editors. Remember, we're all on the same team here. Ks64q2 (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A bone to pick? I have no people I would ever hold a grudge against, my tone is the product of my obviously low view of people making arguments related to politics on Misplaced Pages(both sides), the lack of any direct intonation due to this being written over the internet and not vocalized, and your imagination. I sound much more depressing, and much less misanthropic in real life. As for my actions crediting my positions, people's positions should be credited on their merit and not on the tone being made by them, the fact though that they aren't credited on their merit contributes to my outlook on people arguing here. As for a helpful tone, more of that would be nice, but if you're new to political debates on Misplaced Pages, it doesn't come easily. I am disappointed that facts cannot be agreed upon because it is assumed that they all carry hidden agendas behind them, obviously this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit: anyone here who does not think there have been meat puppets here cannot realistically hope to gain any credibility with me.(please listen to what I said and don't read it as "I think everybody is a meat puppet", or whatever sub-text or symbolic meaning you can devise).Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec)

Looking briefly through the list of proponents of including this in the Fox News article above, I see a great many of user who have contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages.

Yes indeed, the Daily Kos Meatpuppet list is quite long indeed. You all can ignore the obvious if you want, but you are only encouraging this type of behaviour in the future. Just take a look at the edit history of some of these editors, even the ones that are actual accounts show very little if any usage in the past year or months, and most have very little edits to begin with. The probable correlation between all of these events is simply far to high to be ignored. Arzel (talk) 23:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Where is that list? Where are the NEW editors who deliberately joined for the purpose of influencing the discusion? Many here seem to misunderstand the main point of the meatmpuppetry rule. To call for established editors to weigh in on an issue is NOT meatpuppetry! Gray62 (talk) 08:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Continued discussion(thanks Blooddoll)

I think we need to stop the arguing about who is a meatpuppet and who is not, who is biased and who is not. Let's discuss this on the basis of Misplaced Pages policy, shall we - since that's really the criteria which needs to be satisfied for inclusion. WP:V is easily satisfied per the list near the beginning of the RfC; but WP:Undue and WP:NPOV are more problematic. I think Wikiposter hit on something in his list:

"No major news organization has come out and criticized Fox for this. They have only reported on the DNC's criticism without weighing in themselves. Their reports do not approve or disapprove of the DNC's comments, but so far the DNC is the only notable group to criticize Fox."

Read through the news reports and you'll see this is true. Only the DNC has criticized NewsCorp and Fox News for this. If we include it as a controversy solely on the basis of the minority viewpoint held by the DNC we are violating WP:Undue and WP:NPOV. But, you ask, what then is the majority viewpoint? Well, the majority viewpoint seems to be that this isn't controversial - because, as Wikiposter pointed out, the news sources have not weighed in on either side... and in addition, outside of DKos and Misplaced Pages it hasn't attracted a lot of attention. I think we need to resolve the minority viewpoint issue raised by WP:Undue before we can move forward. If a more experienced editor can add additional policy guidelines, I think it would help in restructuring this debate into a more constructive dialogue - instead of the pie fight we have now (largely thanks to the DKos blog.) -BloodDoll (talk) 07:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:V is easily satisfied per the list near the beginning of the RfC...

I'm not yet inclined to either agree or disagree with that statement as it appears to be predicated on an assumed resolution to the RfC question itself. IMHO, the issue at hand in the RfC is whether or not this "event" itself rises to satisfy WP:V sourcing requirements that would clearly identify it as relevant for inclusion as a "Fox News" related "controversy". This, of course, begs the oft-asked question within these spaces and so many others...what, exactly, is Misplaced Pages-relevant "controversy" and how might it be both identified and properly sourced. To be more specific to this case, do the protestations of patently partisan sources create de facto "controversies" that satisfy all Misplaced Pages criteria for inclusion? As per the norm in so many of these "controversies", another familiar name emerges from within a Washington Post blog (emphasis mine)...

Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP

News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced," and Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going. But in a general sense, other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet, so it's anbody's (sic) guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.

UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox, not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.

Now, as to WP:V, let me re-iterate what I stated earlier (and about which I believe you may now concur). WP:V is surely satisfied as to the documentation of the "event" itself but, as you have noted, the "controversy" (with increased scope targeting Fox News) is demonstrably emanating from 2 hyper-partisan sources and doesn't appear to be reflected as notable anyplace else. That case could be buttressed by actual "citations" from purported sources recognizing the "controversy" as legitimate and something more than another "controversy-du-jour" from both the DNC and MMfA. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Two things: I don't think we're in a position to decide whether the controversy is legitimate, only its notability, and I don't think the critics are as narrow as you suggest. The point of a controversies page is to report on the controversies around Fox News; FNC's critics will likely be a major player in that. We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of criticism, but if there is criticism being widely reported, we should not decide it isn't "real" because the source is partisan. I should also point out, pbs is reporting a much wide critical group. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"I don't think the critics are as narrow as you suggest."

So far you have provided two members of the DNC, and one not notable ethics instructor at a relatively small school for journalists in Florida whose opinions got mentioned by one source. Bring in notable critics if you want to proclaim that more critics are against this.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

@TeaDrinker First, thanks for your contribution (and to BloodDoll and all editors as well) towards restoring this mayhem back to a discussion of the issues.

As a comment on your 2nd observation...

...and I don't think the critics are as narrow as you suggest.

I concur that "criticism" (and simple interest) is not merely limited to the DNC and now MMfA. I should have made note of the greater breadth of "criticisms" (not a whole lot I'd venture anyway) but I was primarily focusing on BloodDoll's seconding observation that "news sources" were apparently not yet "weighing in" on the relative notability of those "criticisms" identified as emanating from the DNC. The Washington Post comments I cited above appear to reflect that relative media indifference.

Perhaps before commenting further on matters relating to Misplaced Pages and "Controversy", I'll yield the floor for comments. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

So, can we all agree WP:V is satisfied for the event itself (i.e., NewsCorp donated $1 million to a GOP organization)? If so, that's one stumbling block out of the way.

Now, whether the donation is relevant to include in Fox News controversies is the major problem. As stated before, I do not think that it can be included in this article (Fox News controversies). Again, the reason is that only Democratic organizations have drawn a link from the donation made by NewsCorp to the journalistic integrity of Fox News (or lack thereof.) Let me just address specific editors here.

JakeInJoisey: I agree with your comments. The key here is "relative media indifference". Aside from PBS, are there any other news sources (per the original list near the beginning of the RfC) that criticize NewsCorp and Fox News for the donation? Do any of them note there may be objectivity implications related to Fox News as a result of the donation? If not, that means this "controversy" is only being pushed hard by the DNC and other Democratic organizations... essentially, a manufactured controversy. As I said before, WP:Undue then comes into play. If only the DNC and other Democratic organizations are pushing the Fox News angle, wouldn't that be considered a minority viewpoint per WP:Undue? Inclusion would therefore violate WP:NPOV by giving more weight to the minority viewpoint held by the DNC and other Democratic organizations. As you say, the majority viewpoint seems to be that of general indifference - in other words, that this is not a controversy.

TeaDrinker: Yes, I think we can decide on the legitimacy of this controversy - and I myself don't think it's legitimate. Here's why: It's not reasonable to argue that we must include it in Fox News controversies solely because partisan political organizations (the DNC, Democratic Governor's Association, MMfA) say there is a controversy. If we did that, we'd have to include every political talking point of both the Democrats and the GOP in Misplaced Pages articles! In my opinion, the discussion must have more participants than just Democratic organizations vs. NewsCorp and Fox News. So far, this simply isn't the case. But, you say, what about the PBS link you provided? As to that, I don't think the PBS link is enough to prove this "controversy" is widespread, and therefore legitimate to include. Three points here.

First, is the PBS link even a reliable source? I note the story is on "The Rundown", a self-described blog. Does that satisfy WP:V? The relevant section here is WP:NEWSBLOG. I am not sure if "The Rundown" is under full editorial control of PBS. If not, it's not a reliable source. Comments?

Second, there's the issue of PBS being in the minority when it comes to news reports about the donation and its implications. Most of the other news sources simply report the donation, the criticisms leveled by the DNC and other Democratic organizations, and the responses to the criticism by NewsCorp and Fox News spokespeople. The news sources themselves do not weigh in or even include other, independent organizations and people criticizing NewsCorp and Fox News. Again, WP:Undue comes into play here. If only PBS and a few other news sources say it is a controversy, that would be a minority viewpoint still.

Third, the beginning of the PBS blog seems to imply it is a widespread controversy, but does not back it up in the rest of the blog. The only critics mentioned in the PBS blog are the Democratic Governor's Association and Kelly McBride, ethics instructor at journalism training facility The Poynter Institute. So, yet another partisan political organization (the DGA) and a little known ethics instructor from a little known journalism school. That really isn't very widespread criticism, is it - and, in fact, contrary to what the blog claims in the beginning: "News Corp.'s $1 million contribution to the Republican Governors Association has drawn fire from journalism schools, ethics analysts and progressive political organizations this week." Note: plural journalism schools, ethics analysts, and progressive political organizations ... but then the rest of the blog entry cites only 1 journalism school (the Poynter Institute), 1 ethics analyst (Kelly McBride), and 1 progressive political organization (the DGA). This goes back to the comment by Wikiposter123 - these critics are not indicative of a more widespread controversy.

So to sum up, I still think we have the issue of WP:Undue here. Unless the advocates of inclusion can come up with criticism from notable, independent organizations and people, we are still left with the fact that most of the criticism is coming from a minority - namely Democratic organizations. The majority viewpoint appears to be that of indifference. And thus including it in Fox News controversies would violate WP:Undue by giving more weight to a minority viewpoint (that the donation has implications for Fox News) than the majority viewpoint (it doesn't have implications and it isn't controversial). -BloodDoll (talk) 22:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Very well said yes. The "notable, independent organizations" that are directly criticising fox news channel over this donation is the key problem, so far ive not seen sources backing that up. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

That is exactly my argument as well. Good articulation of it.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:41, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please copy/paste the exact text from undue that means criticism has to come from "notable, independent organizations and people"? I'm not finding it, and not sure to what text you're referring. Akerans (talk) 23:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The very first line: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources" You don't need independent organizations and people, that was just a suggestion that you could do to prove the DNC's viewpoint is a significant one. If you can prove that in another way then go ahead, but please be aware the a spark of news coverage alone does not prove significance.(although the dieing down of coverage does indicate a 'lack of significance)Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

If there was no coverage of this criticism, you would be correct. However the fact that many independent organizations covered this criticism makes it necessary to include in the article. There's nothing there that says the criticism must originate in reliable sources, only that it must be reported on in reliable sources. Swiftboat, for instance, never originated from a reliable source, but was reliably reported on. This donation criticism has been published in multiple reliable sources, even though the sources have not themselves originated or formally taken a position on the matter (which is something news organizations do rarely). --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"However the fact that many independent organizations covered this criticism makes it necessary to include in the article. "

Please read WP:EVENT, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:NOTABILITY all which state repeatedly that wide coverage of something does not necessitate its inclusion into an article. If that is your argument then you are not supported by policy, and if you have a problem with policy and believe everything with wide coverage needs to be added then you should take it up on the policy pages, not here.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter0123, seriously dude, you're making a fool of yourself. Notability guidelines do not apply to article content, only to the notability of articles. I have no doubt you will keep trying, but I think we all know your position. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

"Dude" WP:NOTABILITY discusses that temporary coverage does not warrant an article being created, obviously supporting my point that news coverage does not necessitate inclusion of info on Misplaced Pages. If you think bypassing people's arguments with slight technical attacks and not the core of their argument makes you look smart and not like a fool and a bad wikilawyer, then I think I'll look elsewhere for a source for advice. Don't expect people to take you seriously when this is how you act.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Did you not read the policy I just linked? WP:N and related policies are not applicable to content discussions. Given you thought we were "starting the vote over" (which is wrong on several levels), and you now doubling down on a position that is explicitly prohibited in the linked policy, either you do not read the policies themselves or you're just policy shopping to service your agenda. The veracity with which you've pursued your goal at the expense of all else is evidence of the latter: you're not here making good faith arguments, but rather interested in advancing your cause. Since every time I ask you for policy to support your positions you either link to irrelevant notability guidelines or userspace essays, and clearly ignore or lawyer around actual policies, I will no longer take the bait. Cheers. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Blax, stop pretending you have made any arguments with policy thus far to support your position. I have already explained to you that things are not worthy for inclusion solely because they received news coverage, I have cited WP:EVENT and WP:NOTNEWS for that and you have yet to respond. WP:NOTABILITY absolutely talks about content on the wikipedia(not in individual articles, but content in the encyclopedia). I cited notability(as I've explained but you have not listened) to show that just like in event and notnews which say we don't add material based on news coverage to also show we don't start articles based on news coverage to show that this is an overarching theme in Misplaced Pages policy, and that no where in Misplaced Pages do we add content(in already existing articles or in creating articles) based off news coverage. You have stated: "It is my understanding that policy bases significance on the number of reliable sources that publish the issue" To which I have stated the obvious, that Lady Gaga isn't the most significant thing in the world just because she receives a lot of coverage, and that it goes against policy specifically WP:EVENT among others which all state we don't add stuff to Misplaced Pages because of a flash of news coverages. If you can find a single policy which backs up you above assertion, then cite it. Otherwise wikilawyering will not help your case.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

How many different reliable sources actually made a connection between News Corps donation and Fox News Channel? BritishWatcher (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

None, and that is the problem. Essentially a bunch of Democratic organizations are claiming there is a connection, and claiming that there is a huge controversy. There are no other sources for those assertions. -BloodDoll (talk) 09:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter0123, if I'm taking that line literally, then the significant viewpoint is Fox New's objectivity, and/or media bias. That's a widely held view, shared by many groups and individuals, throughout this article. So, adding the DNC, and head of the DGA, to that list is not undue. Akerans (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It would help if those who are demanding it remain would create a list here of every reliable source that clearly makes the connection between News Corp making a donation and Fox News Channel. At the moment all ive seen is the DNC making the connection, Media matters trying to exploit the issue and some left winger in the far left British Guardian newspaper in a "Comment is free" section where they let all sorts loose to rant. I also note the actual sentence is still in the article, this RFC should be going on for a couple more weeks to ensure we get more feedback and its less influenced by the vote rigging.

There for we should consider balancing out that sentence for the time being, whilst we decide if it belongs there at all. We need to mention Newscorps donations between 2002-2009 which went to both the dems and republicans. We need to state clearly Foxs or Newscorps response to the allegations. By failing to add these things, we are clearly not being neutral although i do accept this whole article is full of those problems, but we do need to address each of them at some stage. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It would help if those who are demanding it remain would create a list here of every reliable source that clearly makes the connection between News Corp making a donation and Fox News Channel.

Assuming inclusion of whatever content were to survive this RfC, it will be, by necessity, sourced and subject to consensus composition. Let's cross that bridge if and when we come to it (though inclusionist's could certainly help their case with specific cites now).

I also note the actual sentence is still in the article...There for we should consider balancing out that sentence for the time being, whilst we decide if it belongs there at all.

I was honestly unaware whether it was currently in or out and, right now, don't really care either way. It's existence is tenuous anyway and not really worth getting agita over. As to other "problems", let's clear this particular plate first, one way or the other. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

@TeaDrinker This donation criticism has been published in multiple reliable sources, even though the sources have not themselves originated or formally taken a position on the matter (which is something news organizations do rarely).
Perhaps rarely overtly but surely and frequently covertly by coverage (or lack thereof)...but that discussion is for another time, another place. The issue here (and as was, I think, reflected in point #1 of your earlier post) is whether this "criticism" (which surely exists) rises to a level of "controversy" for the purposes of inclusion within this article. It is that question that goes to the heart of this RfC and warrants resolution. You stated earlier...

We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of criticism, but if there is criticism being widely reported, we should not decide it isn't "real" because the source is partisan.

...and there we part company. I'll steal and modify your prose to offer...

We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of "controversy", but if there is "controversy" being widely reported, then it is appropriate for inclusion in this article.

Unqualified "criticism" does not equal "controversy", and there's the rub, IMHO. The floor is yours. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I stand corrected, I was using "controversy" and "criticism" interchangeably. To my mind, if there is wide reporting of some criticism of an action (or perceived action) there's a controversy. But I am fine with the distinction you draw; I should think this qualifies either way. What we should avoid is if someone on Kos or such posted a diatribe about Fox and it went no further. Here the controversy about the donation quite clearly it has been widely reported, so it should be included.

@Wikiposter0123, thanks for the reminder of policy and guidelines. I have read them and have applied them or related rules in perhaps a thousand different cases. I can assure you there is a basis in those documents to include the content; but I would encourage you to re-think your argument. Why does not including the controversy make Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia. That's fundamentally the question at issue here. Would a person searching for controversies surrounding FNC not think that was relevant? I submit that this sort of thing is precisely the sort of controversy that a user would be looking for. Even if you think it is unfounded, the fact that people are calling it a controversy in the media makes it appropriate for inclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TeaDrinker (talk • contribs)

TeaDrinker, I think you're missing the point me and others have been trying to make. No legitimate controversy exists - because so far, only Democratic organizations have asserted that the NewsCorp donation calls into question Fox News' journalistic integrity. It isn't a huge controversy just because the DNC, MMfA, DGA, et al. say it is. The NewsCorp donation does not have an effect on the journalistic integrity of Fox News just because the DNC, MMfA, DGA, et al. say it does. It is a manufactured controversy and politically motivated attack on Fox News. You would be violating WP:Undue and WP:NPOV if you included it, because you are giving undue weight to the viewpoint of a minority group - in this case, the Democratic organizations who assert the integrity of Fox News is now ruined and that it is a huge controversy.

Also, you make several assertions in your reply to JakeInJoisey that I disagree with. I will quote.

Would a person searching for controversies surrounding FNC not think that was relevant?

This is not relevant to the discussion, because what gets included on Misplaced Pages is determined by Misplaced Pages policies. You have failed to show that this "controversy" meets WP:NPOV and WP:Undue, among others. Also, unless you're psychic, I don't think you can find out just what someone searching for FNC controversies would think relevant or not. It is a question that cannot be answered with any surety.

I submit that this sort of thing is precisely the sort of controversy that a user would be looking for.

Personal opinion and therefore not relevant, because this is not about our personal opinions - it is about meeting basic Misplaced Pages standards such as WP:V and WP:NPOV that so far have not been met.

Even if you think it is unfounded, the fact that people are calling it a controversy in the media makes it appropriate for inclusion.

The "people" calling it a controversy consist almost entirely of Democratic organizations - and, as noted above, something is not a controversy just because one person or group claims it is. And the media aren't giving an opinion either way - they are merely reporting the remarks of the various Democratic organizations.

Bottom line: Democratic organizations criticizing NewsCorp and Fox News and claiming that it is a controversy is not enough. Editors in favor of inclusion need to come up with organizations or people other than the DNC, MMfA, etc. who are making the same points. Then they might satisfy WP:Undue, WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc. -BloodDoll (talk) 09:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The entire article is full of groups and individuals making the same points. Every group and individual in this article is questioning Fox New's journalist ethics and media bias. So, adding the DNC, or head of the DGA, is not undue. They share a widely held view of Fox News. Akerans (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

But they are not neutral. Just because the DNC are unhappy that NewsCorp gave a donation to the RPA (even though they have also donated to the Democrats) does not mean it is justification for inclusion on this article. We need neutral sources raising concerns about it and linking Fox News Channel itself, rather than just Newscorp. Otherwise we are giving it undue weight, it would not be out of place in this article which clearly violates it in most sections, but it does not mean we should add more. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The entire article is full of groups and individuals making the same points. Every group and individual in this article is questioning Fox New's journalist ethics and media bias.

Interesting observation. Were this an AfD consideration citing WP:ATTACK for cause, your comment might be cited in a finding for deletion. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not for us to judge whether we think a controversy is legitimate or manufactured; we simply report on the controversies which achieve a national level of attention (and the relevant facts behind them). Adding your own editorializing as to "legitimate" controversies is a clear neutral point of view issue. But this should be a moot point, since (as I have pointed out before); there's ample evidence this extends beyond the DNC. Even Wikiposter0123 has pointed out some of the other critics. This is clearly a "legitimate" controversy, even by the "neutral" standards being suggested. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Is it a notable controversy for this page? Every time the DNC moans about something must it be listed on this page? There are not neutral sources showing this to be a controversy about fox news channel specifically. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The two points, to reiterate: 1. Yes, if the DNC's criticism is widely reported, then it should be included, and 2. the criticism demonstrably extends well beyond the DNC. --TeaDrinker (talk) 17:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

BritishWatcher, groups and sources do not have to be neutral for inclusion. If I'm wrong, please cite the policy that says otherwise. The only neutral policy I'm aware of is the one that says we have to write about subjects in neutral tone, even when the sources are not. And, we do have sources to support its inclusion. "The Democratic National Committee called into question Fox News' objectivity Tuesday..." (Source: CNN), to cite one. Akerans (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

We appear to be inching our way towards what is, IMHO, the nexus of this issue. Earlier you stated...

To my mind, if there is wide reporting of some criticism of an action (or perceived action) there's a controversy.

If I might re-state your position as I understand it...

1. You concur that "criticisms" and "controversies" are not synonymous (in fact, the title of a main article section does suggest otherwise)

2. A "controversy", for Misplaced Pages purposes, may be defined solely by the breadth of reliable sourcing providing documentation of the "criticism".

3. The number or nature of the documented "critics" from whom this "criticism" emanates has no bearing, for Misplaced Pages purposes, on whether or not this "criticism" rises to a level that might rightly characterize it as a "controversy".

If that is a fair representation of your position (did I overlook or misrepresent anything?), then I have some diffculty squaring it with another statement in which I believe you previously concurred...

We have no need to (and in fact, should not) include content which would elevate some partisan attack to the level of "controversy".

If we were to apply your criteria to this content, would we not be elevating a partisan attack to a level of "controversy". Is there any independent analysis/sourcing that suggests this is something other than a partisan attack? JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Striking my last for now as I had forgotten your earlier qualifier on that point which, barring any further amendment or clarification on your part, may render my question moot. More to come... JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

"Why does not including the controversy make Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia."
The classic inclusionist argument. Why should not Misplaced Pages post trivial information if someone will find it interesting WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE. I further more contend that people looking for criticism of Fox will either be:
a:Haters just looking for any criticism what-so-ever and not encyclopedic and rationale reasons to hate Fox. Giving info for them is unnecessary, that is what blogs and internet forums are for.
b:People looking for legitimate or significant criticism of Fox in which I think most people will either find this irrelevant noting only the DNC has really criticized them for this, or they will be mislead into believing it is more important then it is because they found it in an online encyclopedia and they just assume only important or notable things get reported here.(as our policy claims it does)
"Even Wikiposter0123 has pointed out some of the other critics."
Only to mock how non-notable they are. A ethics professor of no significance within the ethics field at a small journalism school in Florida whose opinion was posted in a single piece, and Media Matters. Does that sound like a combo that elevates the significance of this topic? No.
"Wikiposter0123, if I'm taking that line literally, then the significant viewpoint is Fox New's objectivity, and/or media bias."
Yes
"That's a widely held view, shared by many groups and individuals, throughout this article."
Many of them also undue weight. "So, adding the DNC, and head of the DGA, to that list is not undue."
No, it is also undue.
And lastly:
"Even if you think it is unfounded, the fact that people are calling it a controversy in the media makes it appropriate for inclusion."
People in the media are not calling it a controversy, they are calling it a criticism by the DNC. A criticism solely by the DNC does not equal significance, and neither does a flash of media coverage on that criticism. Fox news is unpopular enough that if a significant criticism came up it would be widely picked up by its detractors, the fact more people haven't come out and similarly criticized Fox is evidence that this isn't significant.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, "notable" is still a fine word to use in lieu of "significant"...and you can't be served with a wikilawyer subpoena for doing so. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I was just trying to use different synonyms of notable to make my writing sound less repetitive, I didn't think it would sound like some sort of wikilawyer trick.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm wondering, just what sort of thing are you looking for to make this donation important for inclusion? (Open to any of the advocates for removal) --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

We've mentioned a few already, here are some possibilities.

• "notable, independent organizations and people"
• Media ethics groups
• Democrats who the general public has actually heard of like Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Biden, Reid. Republicans also but you're not going to find any.
• Other news corporations, heads of news corporations, or spokespeople of news corporations
• a movement formed in protest of the donation(ex: a movement started in protest to boycott Glenn Beck's show after he questioned whether the president was a racist)
• Evidence of a large public outcry
• Notable(not Mediamatters editors) people predicting this will likely follow Fox around for a long time to come and lead to ratings decline
• News reporters actually commenting on the significance of the criticism by the DNC
• continued coverage with in depth analysis
• people reporting on significant effects this donation has caused

There are a wide variety of things you could use to find to show notability. The lack of these things however illustrates a lack of notability.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Good list, it would certainly just take a few of those things to justify its inclusion on this article but so far if that was a check list, theres a lot of fails. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, although I would argue that if that were a check list it would have nothing but fails. In fact, I am recommending if someone finds something that falls into one of those categories(or another category they have created) to put the ref by it and to "check" it off.(or just present it down below in a post)Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Weight basically says depth and length of coverage dictates space and detail in an article, and I feel there's enough depth and length in sources to warrant a sentence. I think you're putting too much emphasis on specific factors to happen for inclusion, which is not in the spirit of the policy. Akerans (talk) 22:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the average coverage by people on this I would estimate that coverage had largely stopped before the third day. That's not a lot of length. As far as depth of coverage this header pretty much sums up the depth this topic received in the media "Democrats attack Fox for News Corp . donation", which isn't in-depth at all.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

TL;DR version

Point taken, too soon
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Alright, the above discussions have grown way the hell out of hand and reading through the discussion is becoming just plain impossible. For the sake of trying to keep this manageable, is there anyway to condense the main arguments down to two or three posts and/or organize them so that someone can get the main thrust of each argument w/o having to drive themselves nuts? (Note this isn't a "Let's throw it out and start it again" it's more of a "Let's make this so the average user doesn't simply go "tl;dr" and leave)Soxwon (talk) 00:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Where in the hell do you people get the idea that you can just throw out a hundred editors' contributions, and/or boil them down? There is no argument here, there is no question here... consensus is super duper completely clear, and there is absolutely no point to continuing to feed the two or three editors intent on not hearing anything. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) See note added, that's a helluva wall of text. Thought it might be nice to summarize arguments for newcomers (as I expect there will be). Soxwon (talk) 00:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC) That's a hell of a lot different than a "reboot", don't you think? Starting bullshit like "second voting" only adds to the confusion, which I suspect is exactly why Wikiposter and Britishwatcher are all over it. Over here in the real world, we all know that doing so is wildly unhelpful and completely unsupported in policy. Instead of playing into their painfully obvious attempt to try and corrupt the process, you should either point out the tomfoolery or ignore it. To your broader attempt, yes there will come a time at which it will be time to consider all of the "wall of text" and attempt to make some sort of summary of the viewpoints. However, 24 hours after the RFC started is not that time.  :-) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Coverage of the Donation

One of the questions has been the extent of the coverage of the $1 million donation by News Corp to the RGA. Feel free to add to these. (Note that some coverage used content or headlines from wire services, so they have similar titles or content.) --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Non-editorial articles/substantive coverage

• Kurtz, Howard. "Democrats' letter to Fox News denounces News Corp. donation to Republicans" Washington Post August 18, 2010
• "Fox News (and The Times) silent on News Corp 's $1m Republican party donation" Guardian Unlimited, August 20, 2010.
• "Dems fume over $1M Murdoch donation" The Bulletin August 19, 2010
• "Democrats call on Fox to include disclaimer" Charleston Daily Mail, August 19, 2010
• "Fox News hit for big GOP donation - $1 million check brings call to run disclaimers on TV" Chicago Tribune, August 19, 2010.
• "Dems lean on News Corp . for gift to GOP group," Houston Chronicle, August 19, 2010.
• "Fox News hit for big GOP donation" Orlando Sentinel, August 19, 2010
• "Democrats Protest News Corp's Donation to GOP" Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, August 19, 2010
• "$1M gift to GOP draws fire" northjersey.com, August 19, 2010
• "Fox News' parent gives $1 million to GOP unit" Buffalo News, August 18, 2010
• "Democrats cry foul over News Corp 's Republican donation" Deutsche Press-Agentur, August 18, 2010
• "Rupert Murdoch's News Corp . Gives Big To GOP", All Things Considered, National Public Radio, August 18, 2010
• Lichtblau, E and B. Stelter. "News Corp . Gives G.O.P. $1 Million", New York Times, August 18, 2010
• "Dems: Fox needs disclaimer -- We gave to GOP", Seattle Post-Intelligencer, August 18, 2010
• "Fox News parent gives $1M to GOP governors group", Seattle Times, August 18, 2010
• "Dems say $1M donation skews media coverage" UPI News Service, August 18, 2010
• Kurtz, Howard. "News Corp . defends $1 million gift to GOP - Critics say donation by Fox News's parent company shows bias against Dems" Washington Post, August 18, 2010.
• "Fox News' parent: $1 mil to GOP governors", Seattle Post-Intelligencer, August 17, 2010.

Non-editorial Briefs (1 paragraph or less)

• "Fox News Watch", FOX News, August 21, 2010
• Hirschfeld, Peter. "National parties watching Vt. race - Big money from national organizations could sway elections outcome" The Times Argus August 22, 2010
• "Fox News' GOP gift draws flak". The Journal Gazette, August 19, 2010
• "Democrats attack Fox for News Corp . donation" Lexington Herald-Leader, August 19, 2010
• "Fox News donation to GOP under fire", St. Paul Pioneer Press, August 19, 2010
• "Political Headlines", FOX News Channel, August 18, 2010

Editorial

• Huff, Steve. "Democrats, Obama Target Fox News, Republicans Over Donation," The New York Observer, August 18, 2010
• Reliable Sources, CNN, August 22, 2010
• Countdown with Keith Olbermann, MSNBC August 17, 2010.
• "Fox News Fair and balanced?" Charleston Gazette (WV), August 24, 2010
• "Does the GOP own Fox News, or does Fox News own the GOP?" Daily Astorian, August 24, 2010
• The ED Show, MSNBC, August 24, 2010
• Hagey, Keach. "Brave new world of political giving a risky one for media companies Court ruling that eases limits on donations raises concerns over objectivity, partisanship" The Star-Ledger August 22, 2010.
• "Political contributions and media organizations don't mix" Dallas Morning News, August 21, 2010
• Shafer, Jack. "Sympathy for Rupert Murdoch", Slate, August 18, 2010
• "Fox News Channel" Orlando Sentinel (online), August 17, 2010.
• "'Investment' in Political Campaigns Can Damage Brands" Advertising Age, August 23, 2010
• Lyons, Gene. "Journalists: Show some guts" Berkshire Eagle 30 August, 2010 (also printed in the Valley City Times-Record, Daily News Tribune, Gloucester County Times, Kent County Daily Times, MetroWest Daily News, Times Reporter, Daily Herald, Evening Sun, Newton Daily News)

A laudable effort...but thus far addressing a non-issue. WP:V for the "criticism" is uncontested and irrelevant to the RfC. Is there content in there suggesting something more than run-of-the-mill partisan sniping at Fox News by proxy? If you've read all these, citations...please. If you're going to prevail, you're going to need them anyway. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

None-the-less I'm sure this is probably going to become their major talking point(even if it is a strawman), so I've created a subsection for concerns on the coverage below.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit:WP:Don't create an article on a news story covered in 109 newspapersWikiposter0123 (talk) 22:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I won't assume anything...other than good faith. If there's RfC-relevant meat on those bones, I'd like to see it cited and defended as to the relevance. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @JakeInJoisey: You're back to claiming criticism doesn't count if it comes from a partisan source. I don't see where you're getting that; it is neither demonstrable in policy nor in what makes a good encyclopedia. However, even ignoring that, we have multiple editorial boards taking a dim view of the donation. We even have secondary reliable reporting on the criticism which notes the breadth of the criticism beyond the DNC. I am frankly puzzled as to what else it is you suggest we need. --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Notability of a star isn't based on its size and neither is your list which is filled with articles by non-notable local news sources, brief mentions of the donation(its own section even), "routine" coverage that didn't go in-depth or provide any analysis, and stories that came out right after the incident.

Criticism is much more notable when it comes from a non-partisan source, a few Dems criticize Fox and now it's notable? Sure, if they had some others join them.

"Multiple editorial boards", the board itself criticized Fox or did just one of it's writers. Having a few writers who no one has heard of on editorials boards that few people read isn't going to prove notability.

As for your being puzzled as to what we want, what about this puzzles you? and how did you draw from that that we wanted articles from the Dallas Morning News.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Two things: your goalposts continue to shift and I have now met even your own personal standard. It is a violation of WP:NPOV for us to judge some criticism, even if widely reported, insignificant because we don't like the critic or think it is unfair. I take strong exception to these bizarre ideas you're promulgating, that we can't discuss criticism unless it originates with people we like (we can demand it be reported reliably, but not that the criticism itself be valid). Nevertheless, I have provided you with precisely what you requested. Editorial boards of several news organizations (unsigned editorials are presumed to come from the board) have taken a stance on the question. These are the "other media organizations" you refer to. National media critics, including Howard Kurtz (Washington Post media critic), Dave Levinthal (Center for Responsive Politics), Anita Dunn (former Whitehouse Communications Director), and Eric Burns (former media critic for FOX) have all made comments on it. These are the "notable, independent organizations and people" you were asking for. Obama was reported (NY Observer) to have criticized it. He is a Democratic politician most people have heard of. Many of the editorials commented on the significance... Will the goal post shift further? --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Howard Kurtz, he definitely could be notable if he criticized Fox. He doesn't criticize them though, but rather reports that the DNC has attacked Fox news and their leader "is doing what he can to keep the story alive. "
2. Dave Levinthal, no wiki, not notable
3. Anita Dunn (former Whitehouse Communications Director), the one who couldn't possibly have a grudge against Fox and is only known by the general public due to the controversy where she stated Mao-Zedong was one of her two favorite political philosophers that Fox lead in covering. That Anita Dunn? Edit: I see that one article on the News Corp donation mentions Anita Dunn's criticism of Fox back during the White House feud, but she is not even mentioning the News Corp donation(indeed her criticism of Fox predated the donation by several months). Is this the comment you were talking about? Because if so it doesn't appear she has even commented on the News Corp donation.(if I'm wrong and she does elsewhere please point me to it, although she would barely have add any weight to the notability of the criticism).
4. Obama criticized the donation? Boy does he like to unnecessarily weigh in on controversies(like every.single.one.). Oh wait, he didn't. Despite the title saying "Obama Target Fox News" the only mention of Obama in that article is this line:

"The director of Organizing for America, a project of the Democratic National Committee, sent a notice out to past donors to Barack Obama's presidential campaign"

It is important to read the articles before citing instead of just using the info from the headline because headlines often mislead by making spectacular statements to draw readers in that aren't backed up in the article. Ironic that even though he has weighed in on the Cambridge Police incident, the building of the Mosque near Ground Zero, and every other controversy that he hasn't weighed in on this one.(more proof of a lack of notability?)

"These are the "other media organizations" you refer to."

No, these are the other media organizations I refer to:
Advertising Age, Dallas Morning News, The Star-Ledger, Daily Astorian, Charleston Gazette, St. Paul Pioneer Press, Lexington Herald-Leader, The Journal Gazette, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Seattle Times, UPI News Service, Deutsche Press-Agentur, Buffalo News, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Orlando Sentinel, Houston Chronicle, Charleston Daily Mail, The Bulletin.

I fail the see why you characterize my request for notable people criticizing the News Corp donation to show the criticism's notability as "bizarre". I don't know why you would think I am constantly changing goalposts when that is all that I am asking for. I don't know what has possessed you to claim that you have met this standard and "I take strong exception to these bizarre ideas you're promulgating" that I am arguing that "we can't discuss criticism unless it originates with people we like".Wikiposter0123 (talk) 00:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I characterize calling the largest wire service in Germany as failing to be mainstream press "bizarre." My two points: It is absolutely WP:NPOV to claim that criticism has to come from non-partisan sources. It merely has to be reliably reported on. I totally reject your standard that criticism needs to have been made by people you like. As for your dismissal of every media outlet which contradicts your claims as insignificant, biased, or somehow unworthy of inclusion, I am at a loss. Obviously if the Seattle PI reports something, it is counted as a reliable source. I have read the articles I cited, but clearly we're not reading the same articles.

Howard Kurtz called News Corp's donation hypocritical, and suggested it was "a self-inflicted wound." But don't take my word for it, the coverage of the criticism noted "Howard Kurtz reports that the Democrats have been quick to take advantage of a partisan act that has been widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." That's a secondary source reporting on the events, consistent with WP:OR. You wanted notable criticism, there's an international paper reporting that there is "wide regard" of this as a breach of journalistic ethics.

When I pointed out NPR said the same thing, you rejected that claim too. There's obvious criticism, there's reporting at a national and international level of the criticism. There's substantive coverage from independent media all over the country, including condemnation by independent media organizations. That's precisely what you proposed as your standard. --TeaDrinker (talk) 00:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Oi, point me to the sources you are even talking about because I think you are misreading them from what I've read.

" You wanted notable criticism, there's an international paper reporting that there is "wide regard" of this as a breach of journalistic ethics."

I couldn't find their report on their site, the best I could find was it cut-and-pasted here in which it says nothing of the sort, so at this time I have to assume that you are either totally incompetent, misspoke, or something weird is going on. Direct me to where you are reading this.

Howard Kurtz called News Corp's donation hypocritical, and suggested it was "a self-inflicted wound." But don't take my word for it, the coverage of the criticism noted "Howard Kurtz reports that the Democrats have been quick to take advantage of a partisan act that has been widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics."

Please, where does it say this, certainly not in his own article, and I am having trouble locating him saying these words.

That is really the closest you have to making a point, but I'm fairly certain it is wrong, but I can't direct you to him not saying this because I can't find him saying this. Please point me to where you think Howard Kurtz says this is "widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." because so far that just looks wrong as he has not said as much in his report. Further more when did he call it "hypocritical" are you just making stuff up now?

"When I pointed out NPR said the same thing, you rejected that claim too."

NPR said this was "widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." Show me where they say this.

"I have read the articles I cited, but clearly we're not reading the same articles."

Here's a hint post links to articles if you want to talk about them. I'm not going to continue scouring the internet for sources you don't provide links to that don't appear on Google.trying without quotations just as irrelevant,

Also, I'm not even finding any criticism by Anita Dunn about the donation, you mind telling me what article you think she is? Will you leave if this turns out just to be a huge waste of time?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 06:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Now we seem to be getting somewhere. Howard Kurtz called the donation hypocritical on reliable sources, August 22. Specifically it was in reference to Rupert Murdoch's previous assertion that News Corp didn't support the "Tea Party or any other party." Kurtz went on to characterize the donation, noting that other media owners had donated money as well, then saying Murdoch should have know this donation would cause criticism (calling it a "self inflicted wound").

Anita Dunn, was perhaps less direct, said in regards to the donation "We see Fox right now as the source and the outlet for Republican Party talking points. And it's fine if that’s, you know, how they want to build their business model. But we don’t think we need to treat them as though they are a news organization, the way other news organizations here are treated." This was on NPR's all things considered, August 18th.

I can't provide links since not everything is yet on the internet (or at least, not freely available on the internet). While I hold your demands for ever-increasing "notability" of critics is inconsistent WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, I believe we have now met even your standard. --TeaDrinker (talk) 19:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"Howard Kurtz called the donation hypocritical on reliable sources, August 22. Specifically it was in reference to Rupert Murdoch's previous assertion that News Corp didn't support the "Tea Party or any other party." Kurtz went on to characterize the donation, noting that other media owners had donated money as well, then saying Murdoch should have know this donation would cause criticism (calling it a "self inflicted wound")."

Again, where are you getting this?

"Anita Dunn, was perhaps less direct"

Her lack of directly referencing the News Corp donation might be because of the fact that she made that statement 10 months ago before the News Corp donation during the feud against Fox News.

"I can't provide links since not everything is yet on the internet (or at least, not freely available on the internet). While I hold your demands for ever-increasing "notability" of critics is inconsistent WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, I believe we have now met even your standard."

You have not provided a single other person aside from Howard Kurtz who I question has said the things you claim he has said. If it's on a pay for site, then why don't you cut and paste the article onto your talkpage or mine. As for other places like Deutsche Press-Agentur, how are you accessing those? Do you order a subscription to Deutsche Press-Agentur.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I was reading Kurtz's quote off of a transcript of "Reliable Sources" on CNN, August 22, 2010. I got Anita Dunn's comment from NPR's All Things Considered transcript from August 18, 2010. It seemed from the transcript that they were including it as relevant to this discussion. However it would appear that they copied it in from a previous interview, which I apologize for the confusion.

Kurtz, I should note, is the host of Reliable Sources and specifically discussed the donation from the final commercial break to the end of the show (with two other mentions of other media events, both less than a paragraph of text). I have a University subscription to a full text news service which provides searchable full text of news around the world. I can not cut and paste any significant amount of text from a source under copyright--to your talk page or this one. Copyrights are, I'm afraid, non-negotiable.

I am still astonished you would take the more than 30 references I provided and dismiss all of them for one reason or another. I think, in light of those extensive references, Kurtz is a voice in a chorus. Moreover, you seem to insist that he hold a particular viewpoint to include any discussion in the text. This is absurd. You recognize him as a notable media commentator making comments on the topic. Whatever his viewpoint, it is clearly a topic of national discussion. --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"Whatever his viewpoint, it is clearly a topic of national discussion." No. "I am still astonished you would take the more than 30 references I provided and dismiss all of them for one reason or another." I have consistently asked for more critics, not more sources reporting on something that two members of the DNC said. I certainly was not looking for an editorial from the Daily Astorian. "I can not cut and paste any significant amount of text from a source under copyright--to your talk page or this one." Then post the quotes. "Moreover, you seem to insist that he hold a particular viewpoint to include any discussion in the text. This is absurd." By a particular viewpoint I simply ask that he hold a viewpoint, and that you can provide a quote of him saying that.(don't need the source, just the relevant paragraph)Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Considerations regarding coverage

Below are some things to take into consideration regarding the coverage.

• A major concern for editors against the inclusion regards the lack of continued coverage, so additional weight will be given to articles that are provided which followed up on the story on later dates.
• It should be noted that per WP:BREAKING:

"It is wise to delay writing an article about a breaking news event until the significance of the event is clearer as early coverage may lack perspective and be subject to factual errors."(emphasis mine)

Many breaking news stories falsely reported that Fox did not report on the News Corp donation when they broke it first, another example of why lasting coverage and follow up articles are more valued than the immediate coverage. Example:

"Fox News (and The Times) silent on News Corp 's $1m Republican party donation" Guardian Unlimited, August 20, 2010.

• General guidelines of Misplaced Pages state that news sources that are either local, obscure, out of the mainstream, internet only or self-published are not generally used for proving notability. From Notability in Misplaced Pages#Sourcing:

Notability should be demonstrated using reliable sources according to Misplaced Pages guidelines (not policy). Reliable sources generally include mainstream news media and major academic journals, and exclude self-published sources, particularly when self-published on the internet. The foundation of this theory is that such sources "exercise some form of editorial control."

New sources that seem to fit this description will generally recieve less weight than those of the mainstream. These sources include:
#Advertising Age

1. Dallas Morning News
2. The Star-Ledger
3. Daily Astorian
4. Charleston Gazette
5. St. Paul Pioneer Press
6. Lexington Herald-Leader
7. The Journal Gazette
8. Seattle Post-Intelligencer
9. Seattle Times
10. UPI News Service
11. Deutsche Press-Agentur
12. Buffalo News
13. Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
14. Orlando Sentinel
15. Houston Chronicle
16. Charleston Daily Mail
17. The Bulletin

Feel free to place additional concerns.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to request you either start a new section or post to the bottom. But seriously, major metropolitan dailies are pretty clearly mainstream news. --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The Chicago Tribune, the Washington Times, The LA Times, sure. The Seattle Times? Definitely not nearly as much weight should be given to them.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The WP:BREAKING guideline is usually geared toward avoiding creating articles where it is unclear of the notability of the subject. Here it has been reported by many independent journalists, and has been discussed by many editorialists (additionally, we're not creating a new article). It's notability is secure; I would suggest there's even enough coverage for a separate article, were someone interested in writing one. The suggestion that there's insufficient evidence of the notability of this controversy, when it has been covered in depth by multiple national and international organizations, boggles my mind. --TeaDrinker (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It should be noted that most of the sources listed above specifically focus on News Corp and Murdoch in their title. This reinforces my argument that this is really about News Corp and Murdoch. It is not a controversy that FNC had anything to do with, and I have yet to see a rational reason why this is an notable controversy that FNC was involved in. Arzel (talk) 23:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It is ironic you don't think that a guideline which suggest using later articles instead of breaking news because they might contain factual errors when multiple editors here have suggested that Fox's lack of reporting on the issue is evidence of it's bias despite the fact they reported on it first with one editor even saying:

"Although FNC did not make the donation directly, their parent corporation did, and they apparently failed to report on it while the rest of the mass media did. It seems like *that* is the controversy, not the donation itself."

The fact that you would suggest this warrants its own article suggests to me that you are a fundamentalist inclusionist, who both does not understand WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:NOTABILITY, and WP:EVENT, but perhaps has not even read any of the arguments against inclusion which has stated many times that policy does not dictate notability by amount of news coverage. Claiming your mind is boggled by this discussion doesn't make it seem that you understand what this discussion is about.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

My mind is boggled because I have a hard time following your argument. Now you are claiming that we can't cover something which happened recently, as a rule? I can assure you, when something is unclear if it will received much media attention or not, we might tend toward caution in creating a new article. However when something has already received substantive attention, it is part of the historical and public record. It should be included. WP:BREAKING doesn't really apply. --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a history of our discussion

I said this:"Bring in notable critics if you want to proclaim that more critics are against this."

Then you said this"Now you are claiming that we can't cover something which happened recently, as a rule?"

Then this"I take strong exception to these bizarre ideas you're promulgating, that we can't discuss criticism unless it originates with people we like"

Then this"I totally reject your standard that criticism needs to have been made by people you like."

I cited WP:BREAKING to note that "early coverage may lack perspective and be subject to factual errors." and then pointed out the errors early reports made in reporting that Fox hadn't reported on the news.

You responded:"WP:BREAKING doesn't really apply."

You said "My mind is boggled because I have a hard time following your argument.", and to repeat, it is: You need notable people or groups levying a criticism to make it notable. Notable does not equal non-partisan, I have not said that, but have suggested non-partisan sources would help you're argument for notability as they would have more weight to them.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

@TeaDrinker You're back to claiming criticism doesn't count if it comes from a partisan source.
That mis-represents my position. Here's my quote...

Is there content in there suggesting something more than run-of-the-mill partisan sniping at Fox News by proxy?

That's the question that this RfC is addressing. Is this "criticism" recognized by reliable sourcing as something more substantive than opportunistic partisan Fox News sniping at a level that would make it relevant for consideration as a "Fox News Controversy"? Please show me some cites (not just articles) that you purport will make that case. What criteria define a "criticism" as opposed to a "controversy" and how is that reflected in the citations that will make that case?

I've already provided a citation from the Washington Post that appears to rebut your contention. Another rebuttal indicy would be the disappearance of this story from active news coverage. Is any news source still expressing an interest in it? JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Which policy or guideline is it that prescribes measuring "active news coverage"? I'm interested in knowing what P/G's recommend is a suitable amount of time. As far as I'm aware, the governing policies deal with the number of reliable sources, not for how long it was in the newspapers... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Which policy or guideline is it that prescribes measuring "active news coverage"?

I suppose that might be relevant were this a discussion on actual content composition. It isn't. It's an RfC on whether or not this issue might be legitimately identifiable as a "Fox News Controversy". There is no WP P/G that precludes consideration of anything in that regard. The relative shelf-life, political affiliation, depth and breadth of reliable sourcing that support tying "Fox News" journalistic integrity to this "criticism" are all germane indicies for consideration in this RfC. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

An appropriate consideration and worth discussion. However, I've responded to TeaDrinker above and I'm quite curious what those who advocate for inclusion think of that Washington Post blog entry I cited. To be quite honest, I've not done much looking around since I read that but I thought it quite pointedly addressed issues we're debating here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you repost the link? There's at least three references to story from the Washington Post proper, but I don't know the blog source you're referring to. I am also curious about your answer to Blaxthos's question. --TeaDrinker (talk) 00:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Here it is again...(emphasis mine - a short observation following)

Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP

News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced," and Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going. But in a general sense, other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet, so it's anbody's guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.

UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox, not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.

...anbody's (sic) guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.

If this story doesn't have substance enough to satisfy a probably sympathetic media observer that there's some "there there", how does it get elevated in Misplaced Pages to the level of a "Fox News Controversy"? JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

That's why it's only worth a sentence. But, it's also worth a sentence because Fox News is being criticized for its parent giving "one of the biggest ever" (source: NY Times). Akerans (talk) 02:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Assuming you are refering to the following...

The contribution from Mr. Murdoch’s News Corporation, which owns Fox News, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Post and other news outlets, is one of the biggest ever given by a media organization, campaign finance experts said.

...that looks like rather benign reportage to me. Where is it you see the "criticism"? JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The criticism is from other sources, and I'm not saying we should synthesize these sources. I was providing an alternate view to the "this is just a typical news story and doesn't belong here" (paraphrased) argument. That is, if this was just a typical news story, then I would agree it doesn't belong. However, since this is one of the biggest donations ever, we shouldn't dismiss the criticism as typical news. Akerans (talk) 16:47, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

To Blax's concerns about need ongoing coverage: It's a very simple policy that I've mentioned multiple times but I suppose haven't linked you to, it's called WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE. The opening line reads "The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance." "That's why it's only worth a sentence. But, it's also worth a sentence because Fox News is being criticized for its parent giving "one of the biggest ever"" So the criticism is barely notable, but the donation because it is notable makes the criticism notable enough. So by your reasoning, if having a hangnail is not notable, but Lady Gaga is notable, so then Lady Gaga having a hangnail is notable.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 04:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh huh. So you are blatantly ignoring policy, which is directly on point (emphasis in original):

The notability guidelines are only used to determine whether a topic can have its own separate article on Misplaced Pages and do not govern article content. The question of content coverage within a given page is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies.

Could we please stop making things up, or trying to justify positions based on irrelevant policies and invented interpretations? Thanks! //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 11:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh, Blax, you're in the wrong argument.

You said "Which policy or guideline is it that prescribes measuring "active news coverage"?"

Then I said "...it's called WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE. The opening line reads "The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance."

To which you responded "Uh huh. So you are blatantly ignoring policy, which is directly on point (emphasis in original):

The notability guidelines are only used to determine whether a topic can have its own separate article on Misplaced Pages and do not govern article content. The question of content coverage within a given page is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies.

Could we please stop making things up, or trying to justify positions based on irrelevant policies and invented interpretations? Thanks!"

If you notice, the talk was on continued coverage and discussing the importance of continuing coverage to show notability. Which is not "irrelevant policies" and "invented interpretations". Please join in on the current discussion now of whether the notability of the News Corp donation signifies notability of the criticism of the News Corp donation down below.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

@TeaDrinker (or anyone) I have not yet voted on this RfC. Among other considerations, I have asked for specific citations that might argue for elevation of this suggested content from criticism-du-jour of Fox News via News Corp proxy to actual "Fox News Controversy" level but few, if any, actual citations (beyond article lists) have been offered. Somewhere above TeaDrinker suggested a Howard Kurtz commentary as particularly germane in making a case for inclusion. I overlooked that discussion earlier as the thread had become just too rancorous. If Howard Kurtz (or something else) is deemed to be representative, how 'bout citing them again here for examination? JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"The criticism is from other sources, and I'm not saying we should synthesize these sources. I was providing an alternate view to the "this is just a typical news story and doesn't belong here" (paraphrased) argument. That is, if this was just a typical news story, then I would agree it doesn't belong. However, since this is one of the biggest donations ever, we shouldn't dismiss the criticism as typical news."

Arguing the criticism is notable enough for the criticism article because the donation is notable does not show notability of the criticism. If a few Democrats believed that the existence of a Chinese teapot between the Earth and Mars revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit disproved Christian doctrine would that be notable enough for the Criticism of Christianity article? My point being you need to have more than just a few people making a criticism for the criticism to be notable, no matter how notable finding a Chinese teapot orbiting in space would be(especially after talking about it for so long), it wouldn't make their criticism of Christianity notable.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The Democratic National Committee is not "just a few people". They are run by notable democratic leaders (i.e. Tim Kaine, Mike Honda, Linda Chavez-Thompson, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Donna Brazile, and Raymond Buckley) and the committee governs the Democratic Party (United States). This is a national organization that is recognized throughout the world. Please don't try to down play their significance. I'm sure the DNC criticizes their opponents every day, but it's not every day News Corp. gives $1 million to their opponent, and, in turn, they question Fox News' objectivity over it. Akerans (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

NOTE: The WP:ANI report here filed by Blaxthos against Wikiposter0123, relative to the "restarting" of this RfC, has aged off the notice board and been archived. Although it wasn't officially closed, it was there for three days and no administrator action was taken. Regardless of one's position on this, I think it's clear the ANI report is a dead issue. This RfC continues... with drama. — Becksguy (talk) 19:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the request for continuing coverage, can someone point me to the coverage in the past month of the A. B. plot? Obviously there's less coverage now of certain events than when they were happening, but that does not alter their historical importance. These discussions about whether something covered by nearly every major news outlet are "notable" are simply ridiculous. --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Question: Does anyone have an objection if I restructure this page to have all the RfC sections fall under the main RfC header with the banner, in the same order they are in now? That way they all will be subsections of the RfC. It currently looks like there are multiple independent threads, when all but the question about the mosque are continuations of the RfC. This is a housekeeping function, not a change in any content. The RfC is a wall of text and is hard enough to follow without structural and page flow impediments. Also, once this is over and needs archiving, it can be archived as one thread without pieces left over — Becksguy (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)————UPDATE: Done. Becksguy (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Lol, I was actually going to do that, but became too lazy. I think we might also want to summarize both sides and maybe put the summary at the top.

"These discussions about whether something covered by nearly every major news outlet are "notable" are simply ridiculous. "

Then do you think everything covered by nearly every major news outlet is notable? As for the A. B. plot, of course there isn't continued coverage in the news, but you'll find it in history books and historical political journals. That's where it's being covered(and if it isn't the article should be scrapped form Misplaced Pages).

"The Democratic National Committee is not "just a few people". They are run by notable democratic leaders (i.e. Tim Kaine, Mike Honda, Linda Chavez-Thompson, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Donna Brazile, and Raymond Buckley)"

Great, have them criticize it. The DNC's central focus is on "campaign and political activity in support of Democratic Party candidates, and not on public policy.", and they do not speak for every Democrat holding office. Many news stories mostly focused on:

1. The donation's size
2. Fox not covering the story(although it did)
3. The over-the-top request by a DNC member for Fox to put up a disclaimer

There has been no coverage though which has lead weight to the notability of the criticism.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

It's obvious this guy is making shit up as he goes along, and I don't see how there is any chance he is here in good faith -- he's been wrong on every single policy point, and he's tried at least 5 different ways to accomplish the same goal and/or derail this RFC -- need I list them all? A small sample, for your consideration: "Restarting" the "vote", believing it is a "vote", trying to misrepresent notability guidelines as content policies, bypassing the actual content policies in favor of his own personal analysis, moving the goalpost when challenged, et cetera ad infinitum. He refuses to listen to anyone, and I'm pretty well convinced he doesn't even read our policies. I posit this is nothing short of disruptive behavior -- anyone else in favor of proposing a topic ban of Wikiposter? If he wants to productively contribute to this encyclopedia, I suggest he should spend some time editing non-contentious articles until he has demonstrated he is both willing to read and abide by policy, and able to honestly consider the opinions of others. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm tired of dealing with this. Blax, consider this your warning before I take your constant disruptive and baseless attacks on me to ANI, and leave this discussion here to people that want to discuss changes to the article.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit:I apologize to those here trying to establish consensus through discussion and working towards furthering that discussion. I will strike out my comment as a gesture of good faith, and hope this discussion can turn to discussion on the information's inclusion/exclusion.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This is a content disagreement about a very contentious issue, not a debate about editor behavior. Filing reports is not particularly helpful in getting to consensus, rather it deepens the divide. Disclosing my position: I'm in favor of including the content, and will cast my !vote, and make my arguments, but I won't take it personally if the arguments are disagreed with. More importantly, regardless of what happens to this content, it won't be the end of the world as we know it (or of Misplaced Pages, or even of the article). The resources expended on this issue is staggering, including about 34,000 words and 240 KBytes so far in the RfC. The tone of this RfC is a much bigger problem than this particular content could possibly be, and the fallout will affect collaborative efforts between participants even after the battle is over. Please lets discuss content, not each other, and please lets try to assume more AFG and remember why we are here. Thank you. — Becksguy (talk) 04:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

And its been Blaxthos tone that has been the worst. Hes used foul language and accused myself and Wikiposter of trying to "corrupt the process". Yet it is the inclusion camp that tried to rig this RFC with the post on Daily Kos which has without doubt had a huge impact on the whole thing. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The impetus behind this alleged "Fox News Controversy" is becoming rather evident...as is major media indifference. From "Mediate"...

But new allegations have come to light that question whether Media Matters was serious about running the ad as opposed to just generating attention – and possibly charitable donations – for itself.

And from MMfA itself, Eric Boehlert bemoans the apparent indifference of the White House Correspondent's Association to the alleged "controversy"...

Does the association think it's fine and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it?

Inclusionists might benefit from more citing and less rhetoric. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually at this point I think both sides could use less rhetoric and more consensus building. Yes, the DailyKos diary piece sent many here in an attempt to votestack. And yes this debate is a battleground. But this RfC is corrupted only if you want it to be. It seems to have become more about proving the other side wrong, and about winning, rather than deciding together if this piece of content belongs in the article or not. The information about the donation is not a smoking gun relative to Fox News, so at the end of the day, it won't make a hell of a lot of difference either way. At this point the content in the article at dispute is 13 words long, yet this discussion is now more than 35K words long. See how disproportionate that is? It's just not worth this battleground. Get over who's fault it is, and finish the debate. The position of both camps is crystal clear, and everything we all need to know about the content is already in the RfC. Start proposing wording, since all that remains is to come to consensus on a version (or none), something that could be done in a very short time. If y'all really want to, that is. — Becksguy (talk) 15:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If we have to continue to mention the donation, we should also state that NewsCorp has donated funds to the democrats too. We should not make out like this one donation is a controversy when clearly only those organisations with an agenda see it as such and are trying to make it a bigger deal than it is. Ohh and this RFC has been corrupted, there is no "only corrupted if you want it to be". It has been corrupted, the evidence of this fact is very clear. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually at this point I think both sides could use less rhetoric and more consensus building...Start proposing wording, since all that remains is to come to consensus on a version (or none)

Your suggestion that the composition of consensus "wording" commence while, at the same time, noting that an "(or none)" option is, at this point, just as viable leaves me somewhat flummoxed. The purpose of the RfC is to solicit comments as to whether or not this content is appropriate for both identification and inclusion as a "Fox News Controversy". From the cites I've provided, I believe there's a valid argument to be made that this is now more a "Media Matters for America" controversy than a "Fox News Controversy". Does anyone seriously contest at this point that the "News Corp" donation (which is borderline "controversial" in and of itself) has been used as a proxy attack against FNC by hyper-partisan interests? As was noted early on in this discussion (not by me), is an anti-Fox News allegation/attack by a hyper-partisan entity now de facto elevated to "Fox News Controversy" worthy? Yikes. We might as well just turn this article into an RSS feed from the DNC and Media Matters. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed i still do not accept there is a notable controversy involving Fox news channel and this donation, its just certain people and a couple of political organisations with an agenda who are suggesting anything. I do also still fear that if the result of this RFC is to keep the text in the article, it will be seen by those responsible for the "RFC rigging" that took place as a victory. I happen to think its a bad idea if we allow cheaters a victory, it will encourage lots more cheating in the future if it stays in. If it was not for the cheating it may have been easier to reach a compromise. Those who say the SPAs will simply be ignored at the end of the RFC fail to accept it has already had a huge impact on it. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

We could say, "The Democratic National Committee, and head of the Democratic Governors Association, questioned Fox News' objectivity after parent company News Corporation donated $1 million to the RGA. In a press release, News Corporation stated that their donation has no bearing on their journalist." Or something similar. I think going beyond that, that is going into detail about New Corporation's donation history, would be unnecessary weight. As far as MMfA goes, I don't think enough mainstream sources have mentioned them to warrant their inclusion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seems the only mention of them is from a Washington Post opinion piece. Akerans (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

No way. If this article is to continue to include this matter, it must mention the fact NewsCorp has donated large sums of money to the Democrats as well. To do otherwise would be totally against WP:NPOV. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit conflict: You would need to change it to something more like this before I would start even considering inclusion:

"The Democratic National Committee, and head of the Democratic Governors Association, questioned Fox News' objectivity after parent company News Corporation donated an impressive $1 million to the RGA calling Fox's reporting "partisan propaganda" and requesting Fox to have a disclaimer on their programs. In a press release, News Corporation stated that their donation has no bearing on their journalists, and that having also supported Democrats in the past, their decision to make such a large donation to the GOP was out of their belief that the GOP would be more friendly to business.

In response to the DNC's criticism the Washington Post reported that "But in a general sense, other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet," with media critic Howard Kurtz noting that the leader of the DNC, "Daschle, who has already put out a fundraising letter about the News Corp. contribution, is doing what he can to keep the story alive."

By the way, I found this: Tobe Berkovitz, an associate professor of communication at Boston University. "This just reinforces for liberals how evil and manipulative Fox and Rupert Murdoch are. For the civilians out there, I don't think they're going to see this as particularly relevant or particularly important.

I still support not including this at all though and doubt my suggestion will be accepted by the inclusionists. The only way I feel to put this in giving due weight to the criticism is to balance it out by placing the commentary of others on the notability of the criticism, and that the resulting two paragraphs would be too much weight for this "controversy" in the article.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you're not distinguishing between money given by employees and money given by the corporation -- those two concepts are not the same. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

BritishWatcher, according to NPR, News Corp. gave $0 to the DGA in 2009 and 2010. Or, are you saying we should mention donations not related to the criticism? Akerans (talk) 01:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I have two points which I'd like addressed by editors arguing in support of inclusion. I've raised these two points before, but I have not seen any direct responses to them by editors who support inclusion.

1. Inclusionists need to show that including the criticism of Fox News, which originated mainly from Democratic organizations, does not violate WP:Undue by giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint. If only Democratic organizations are criticizing Fox News for the donation by its parent company, isn't that a minority viewpoint per WP:Undue? Again, the majority viewpoint seems to be one of indifference: a.) most of the news sources cited on this page only report the criticisms, but do not weigh in themselves, and b.) In addition, no notable, independent persons or organizations have commented on the donation or its implications for Fox News. Inclusionists need to show that the criticism of Fox News is widespread, and not just originating from a vocal minority (i.e. the Democratic organizations who initiated the criticism.) If this cannot be shown, I believe that including the criticism of Fox News would violate WP:Undue.
2. If criticism of Fox News over the donation originated from partisan organizations, would including their (inherently biased) criticism violate WP:NPOV? Basically, the criticism that the NewsCorp donation affects the journalistic integrity of Fox News has not been backed up by any evidence, rather it has been simply asserted by various Democratic organizations. Therefore, including the criticism of Fox News would violate WP:NPOV unless inclusionists also include the responses of NewsCorp and Fox News spokespeople into the final wording (if consensus is indeed reached on including it, which at the moment appears rather uncertain.)

The first point is what caused me to change my mind about inclusion, so if an editor who supports inclusion can convincingly argue (on the basis of Misplaced Pages content policy) that including partisan criticism does not violate WP:Undue, I will be open to supporting inclusion. If not, I still say exclude. The second point also must be addressed, but is focused more on satisfying WP:NPOV if the consensus is to include. -BloodDoll (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

To further note the objectives of the of the proponents of this criticism I would like to point out that people promulgating this criticism are attempting to use it to generate fundraising revenue as suggested by Howard Kurts" Daschle, who has already put out a fundraising letter about the News Corp. contribution, is doing what he can to keep the story alive.". More evidence of the lack of a controversy.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

To highlight the inanity of this so-called "controversy," here's the Media Research Council to put it into perspective:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lachlan-markay/2010/08/27/lefties-upset-murdoch-donation-take-note-88-percent-network-donation

And the debate of the rational ends here. PokeHomsar (talk) 22:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

@BloodDoll, even obviously partisan criticism, even if baseless, can be notable. We have now several articles on Swiftboating and related topics, even though that is now the quintessential example of baseless partisan criticism (far higher level of importance, certainly, reflecting multiple article coverage). We cover notable (though totally baseless) claims from absolute loons, such Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories, or Beck v. Eiland-Hall on a legally minor case, notable only for the press coverage of random internet satirists. There's no requirement that we have to find the criticism valid or originating from reputable sources, only that there is reliable coverage of the criticism of a sufficient magnitude to satisfy WP:UNDUE. In fact, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR demand we not make judgement about the validity of the criticism, which includes judging criticism as unfit for inclusion because we're unhappy with the people making the argument. It is a simple rule: if it is widely discussed, it is included. I agree, notable positions on the controversy should be represented; Fox has made a statement which was widely quoted. That should be included. --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Right, but your Swiftboating example really doesn't work. That was indeed a public controversy at the time - meaning many different people and organizations were weighing in on the merits of the attack on John Kerry, what its significance was for his political prospects, etc. etc. etc. Whereas here we have news sources simply reporting criticism from a number of Democratic organizations. We do not have a wide variety of people and organizations weighing in on this so-called controversy. -BloodDoll (talk) 01:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

"It is a simple rule: if it is widely discussed, it is included. "
The rule I'm looking at(WP:NOTNEWS) says:
"While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion."

Thinking if something is widely discussed it should be included is against policy and doesn't make sense. What might be widely discussed by the news media is obviously going to be different from that in an encyclopedia. The two are just different mediums. Barack Obama conspiracy theories are notable because entire movements have formed around them. Get a movement forming around this then it will be notable. As for Beck v. Eiland Hall, that could possibly be deleted.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Criticism is not news, though when it rises to a level of controversy it's often covered by the news (as here). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Some of us do not believe it has risen to a "level of controversy" needed to justify inclusion on this page. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Blaxthos, that is a point that has been made before by the exclusionists here. It is not a "controversy" if 99% of the criticism comes from uniformly Democratic organizations. Controversy, to my mind, implies widespread public debate and discussion on a particular issue. On this issue, there is no widespread public debate and discussion - only Democratic organizations criticizing Fox News. That's why me and others have requested links to the same criticism from notable, independent persons or organizations to show there is a real controversy here - and not just an opportunistic, politically motivated attack on Fox News with not a shred of evidence. So far, those requests have been ignored, sidestepped, or misrepresented (intentionally or not, I don't know; I am AGF.) -BloodDoll (talk) 01:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This discussion about a single statement for an incident that didn't last beyond one news cycle is rapidly approaching being twice as long as the article (139k for discussion, 82k for article). From what I've seen, we've reached a point where everyone keeps repeating the same arguments and talking past one another. Any suggestions for breaking deadlock and/or moving forward? Soxwon (talk) 02:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I do. I have provided 3 citations from sources suggesting that there is questionable substance to this allegation of a "Fox News Controversy". I invite any of the inclusionists to likewise provide 3 citations from reliable sources (other than those known for their partisan advocacy) which they purport supports their position that this is a "Fox News Controversy". Give me 3 unequivocal, legitimate source citations and I'll vote include. JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

As I have previously stated, this wall of text is over 100k. Could you please link those three sources again? Soxwon (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure...

Greg Sargent, Washington Post "Plum Line" Blog...(emphasis mine except for lede)

Media Matters to run ad on Fox News touting News Corp's $1 million donation to GOP

News Corp.'s $1 million donation to the Republican Governors Association is perhaps the best ammunition yet for those trying to undercut Fox's claim of being "fair and balanced," and Media Matters is doing its best to keep the story going. But in a general sense, other news outlets have been surprisingly receptive to Fox's claim that it's a legit news outlet, so it's anbody's guess whether this story will continue or whether it will die quietly.

UPDATE, 4:07 p.m.: In one place above I erroneously described the donation as coming from Fox, not News Corp. I've edited the post to correct.

From "Mediaite" (which cites Greg Sargent's blog as well)...

But new allegations have come to light that question whether Media Matters was serious about running the ad as opposed to just generating attention – and possibly charitable donations – for itself.

From MMfA itself, Eric Boehlert bemoans the apparent indifference of the White House Correspondent's Association to the alleged "controversy"...

Does the association think it's fine and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it?

JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

...and another for the list, Howard Kurtz on "Reliable Sources"...

...there's no basis for arguing that the donations compromise Fox News more than the other networks.

JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

To make sure I understand what you saying. You're saying that since the Washington Post reported that no news organizations questioned Fox News, we should dismiss the fact that non-news organizations (i.e. DNC and DGA) questioned Fox News? Or, are you saying that the lack of continued coverage means we shouldn't include the material at all? Akerans (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The fact there has been limited criticism just from groups with a political agenda and there has been a lack of continued coverage of this matter, both mean it does not belong in this article. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh boy, more invented policies! One, there is no policy or guideline that says material "from groups with a political agenda" is not allowed. Two, there is no content policy that mandates "continued coverage" in sources (no, notability guidelines do not apply to content). Please stop making up policies and preaching them as if they're legitimate -- they aren't, and repeating them ad infinitum only makes you look like a POV warrior. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

What part of WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE do you not understand?

, and what part of WP:WEIGHT do you not understand?

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.

, or WP:EFFECT

Events are often considered to be notable if they act as a precedent or catalyst for something else.

What is the lasting effect of this? Where is the continued coverage? Is there anything that indicates that this was anything more than a fundraising effort by MediaMatters and the DNC? Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter0123, the guidelines you keep quoting (those from Misplaced Pages:Notability (events) is an extension of Misplaced Pages:notability, which is a guideline for article creation, whether or not a subject merits its own article. Not, content inclusion for existing articles. Please see WP:NNC for more information. Akerans (talk) 22:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Didn't realize Event was an extension of Notability, I thought that objection was only referring to my once citing Notability. Can you go ahead and point me towards the content related policies?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Weight is actually not related to Notability.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter, can you please tell us what you believe WP:NNC means? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter, don't be intimidated by the wikilawyering. A consideration of coverage breadth and duration is in no way precluded from an RfC consideration such as this by Wiki P&G. Any suggestion that what Misplaced Pages considers to be recommended guidance for article creation is illegitimate for consideration in an RfC applying to a section only is hogwash, pure and simple. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Jake, is it your position that the notability guidelines are to be used to limit article content? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Nope, my position is that notability guidelines are to be utilized, as stated, in a determination "whether a topic merits its own article." My position also is that the various rationales underlying the formulation of those guidelines are legitimate considerations (and can be quite illuminating, where relevant,) to any RfC addressing specific content.

However, as engaging as that debate might be, the proponents for inclusion haven't even been able to venture beyond WP:V with the provision of specific citations evidencing this "event" as a "Fox News Controversy". The offer still stands Blaxthos. Provide 3 citations (from other than known partisan sources) supporting the inclusionist contention and I, for one, will vote to include. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

And you accuse me of lawyering? I'm not sure why you think an RFC is a special case, as its primary purpose is to involve the community in forming consensus regarding the specific application of policy. Given that the policy absolutely unequivocally states that it is "not to be used to limit article content", I recommend that we view the policy as written (on this very situation) rather than whatever you've invented. I can't state it any more clearly than Akerans does just below. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There IS NO policy guidance (at least that I'm aware of) on what defines a "controversy" and I can't imagine that anyone would defend the notion that hyper-partisan "criticisms" are de facto "controversies" worthy of inclusion in an article so named. Where WP P&G might be vague or unstated, WP editors can and SHOULD look to whatever P&G might illuminate a particular issue.

But that is a bridge that wouldn't even have to be crossed were citations provided under WP:V to support the case that this is a "Fox News Controversy". Where are they Blaxthos?

Hell, there's an argument to be made that it isn't even a "News Corp Controversy". JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter0123, content falls within Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. We know the information is verifiable. So, then it's a question of weight. Weight says, we "treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." As this article is about Fox News' media bias (amongst other things), adding more media bias is significant to the subject. Weight is then determined by prevalence in reliable sources. This news was released worldwide over the period of a day. That doesn't mean to exclude the information, rather it means don't devote too much space to it. Akerans (talk) 00:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

We know the information is verifiable.

On the contrary. Your contention is that the "information" (rather non-specific, no?) is verifiable. You will know the "information" is verifiable when it is verified via the provision of citations from reliable sourcing. Why are those citations not forthcoming? JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I posted more than 30 citations to reliable sources demonstrating people were covering the controversy and many people had an opinion on it. I don't know what you are looking for, but I think we have passed any possible WP:RS test. It is clear many people criticized News Corp's decision to donate. --TeaDrinker (talk) 00:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I posted more than 30 citations...

You posted more than 30 links to articles. Those are not citations. Please post 3 citations that you purport to represent reliable sourcing from non-partisan sources suggesting this is a "Fox News Controversy". JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There he goes again, making up requirements like "non-partisan sources". WP:RS governs source reliability, and has no such requirement. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The requirement (for the purposes of this RfC) is mandated by the lack of a definition for "Controversy". I'd suggest it to be logically preferable that the characterization of "controversy" is better left to non-partisan sources than to Media Matters or the DNC who would define it as whatever we they JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC) say it is. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It most assuredly is not. Repeatedly stating that it is has become your position, not a necessary consideration of any Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, nor a mandate of this RfC. You're welcome to your opinion about what constitutes a controversy, but your are incorrect. --TeaDrinker (talk) 01:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Specific mentions by outspoken critics of Fox News regarding the donation include:

• DGA in PBS, Channel 4, Politico, NY Times, Guardian, and The Atlanta Journal Constitution
• Kelly McBride (ethics instructor at journalism training facility The Poynter Institute) in PBS.
• Eric Burns in NPR, Guardian, and The Orlando Sentinel
• DNC in CNN, CBS, and Channel 4
• If you want exact quotes, that will take longer. Akerans (talk) 01:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

If you want exact quotes, that will take longer.

Without exact quotes highlighting what text you are referring to, the exercise is rather meaningless. I would suggest you start with your best and one at a time might better serve discussion but whatever your pleasure. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You may have to click those links or visit the library. --TeaDrinker (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

First, striking one reference. I got the Fox News Eric Burns confused with the MMfA Eric Burns. Second, here's three quotes regarding the DGA on Fox News regarding the donation.

• From PBS source, "Democratic Governors Association called the move, first reported by Bloomberg News in June, "a jaw-dropping violation of the boundary between the media and corporate realm.""
• From Channel 4 source, "Executive director of the Democratic Governors Association Nathan Daschle said that for a media company to insert itself into the outcome of political contests was "stunning". And, he went on, "The people owning Fox News have made a decision that they want to see Democratic governors go down to defeat. It's a jaw-dropping violation of the boundary between the media and corporate realm."
• From Politico source, "Democrats charged that the million-dollar donation, first reported by Bloomberg Businessweek, was proof positive that Murdoch’s claim that Fox News is “fair and balanced” is a myth. “They’re bankrolling the GOP,” the executive director of the Democratic Governors Association, Nathan Daschle, said of News Corp. Some Democrats said it would be impossible for Fox to continue to claim objectivity."
• Since I don't fully understand what this exercise is suppose to accomplish, I'm not going to cut/paste every quote here. Akerans (talk) 04:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how to make it more clear. The issue in the RfC is whether this content is relevant for inclusion as a "Fox News Controversy". You need to provide reliable third-party sourcing to adequately support that contention.

As to your offerings, the PBS text you cite doesn't even mention Fox News. It refers to "the move" which appears to refer to the News Corp donation itself. Nor does the Channel 4 cite reference "Fox News" but rather the "people owning Fox News". As to "Politico", while your cite merely reports the allegation against "Fox News" made by "unnamed democrats", the DGA E.D. Daschle, and "some democrats", I'll give you that one.

Two more and I'll vote to include (perhaps you should try Howard Kurtz suggested earlier). JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

From Reliable Sources August 22, 2010:

Here's what I didn't like -- Rupert Murdoch's News Corp . giving $1 million to the Republican Governors Association . It was only four months ago that Murdoch said this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUPERT MURDOCH, NEWS CORP .: I didn't we should be supporting the Tea Party or any other party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Now, there's a fair amount of hypocrisy surrounding this question.

Kurtz goes on to describe the other donations, and concludes it is not likely to affect FOX News gathering, but that the controversy is not surprising.

From Countdown, Olbermann interviews Eric Burns,

BURNS: ... You know, as you said earlier, when Rupert Murdoch, chairman of News Corp , was asked if this is something Fox should be engaged in, he said no. He promised to investigate. That never happened. I guess the as a result of that investigation was he decided to donation to defeat Republican governors -- Democratic governors, excuse me.

OLBERMANN: He investigated and discovered that there was not enough money coming out of his pocket to the Republicans.

And on The ED Show, Ed Shultz interviewed Nathan Daschle on August 24, 2010 about this. Shultz said

FOX News is still duping folks into thinking that they are a real news organization and they have a front row seat in the White House briefing room to show for it. But News Corp . recently removed any illusion of fair and balanced by giving a $1 million to the Republicans. So now, several media Watchdog groups are urging the White House Correspondents Association to reconsider FOX`s front row privileges.

I can give you quotes of a similar nature from all 30+ sources I cited, but this should be sufficient by the criteria you set out. --TeaDrinker (talk) 05:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Good Lord. You offer Olbermann, Burns, Ed Schultz and Daschle as non-partisan sources? JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Where is this non-partisan coming from? If you're trying to satisfy some personal criteria for inclusion, I respect that, but I don't think it will carry much weight with a RfC !vote. Akerans (talk) 06:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

First, I appreciate your effort in providing both suggested relevant text and links to same. As to...

Where is this non-partisan coming from?

I will try explaining this one more time. There is no Misplaced Pages P&G as to what constitutes a "controversy". It is, therefore, a subjective determination that must be made by editor consensus that this is a "Fox News Controversy". That determination must be made by examining relevant content in suggested reliable sourcing that might support a premise that this News Corp donation equates to a "Fox News Controversy". If that allegation is not supported in adequate reliable sourcing other than from hyper-partisan sources, then it is, more than likely, partisan propaganda. If that is so, then a question on the propriety of including this content in an article entitled "Fox News Controversies" should naturally ensue...and that is where non-partisan comes from. That is the criteria upon which I will make my determination of the relevancy of the "criticism" for this article...and I believe it to be a reasonable one. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Akerans. But in the interest of collegiality, here are some more citations with annotations:

Unsigned editorial in Advertising Age: "At the same time, News Corp . has donated $1 million to the Republican Governor’s Association. That’s resulted in the expected kicking and screaming from media watchdogs and the Democratic Party (which, not surprisingly, hasn’t raised a peep when other companies have lined its coffers). But News Corp .’s core consumers aren’t crying foul. "Fair and balanced" claims to the contrary, News Corp .’s constituency clearly leans right. No one expects Fox News viewers or New York Post readers to rush out into the streets to boycott a donation to the Republicans."

Unsigned editorial, Dallas Morning News (Aug 21): "Bloomberg Business Week reported this week that Rupert Murdoch's News Corp . plunked down a cool million in June for the Republican Governors Association to use as it likes. It's beyond us how News Corp . can square that sizable donation with the tradition of an independent press."

The Guardian's article "Fox News (and The Times) silent on News Corp 's $1m Republican party donation", notes commentary by both Kurtz, Dashchle, and Ryan Witt, noting further the donation has been "been widely regarded as a breach of journalistic ethics." Note that this is their reporting, not editorial. (Aug 20)

I can do this for every article on my list. I am still genuinely confused as to what you're looking for. Non-partisan sources which report that partisan sources criticize FOX? --TeaDrinker (talk) 07:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Regarding KurtzNow this is a most interesting offering. First of all, I'm not sure just what relevancy the cited text brings to bear to this discussion, but there's uncited text (which, I assume, your paraphrase purports to represent) which I have just now read for the first time that is stunningly relevant...

"So, there's no basis for arguing that the donations compromise Fox News more than the other networks.

Thank you Howard Kurtz. JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

But regarding your comment, your quote is what I meant when I said "affect FOX News gathering." So we have an opinion to represent. --TeaDrinker (talk) 03:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's a little help for the inclusionists...CNN apparently still cares...

When news broke earlier this month of News Corporation's massive contributions to the RGA, Democrats pounced.

"'Fair and Balanced' has been rendered utterly meaningless," Democratic National Committee spokesman Hari Sevugan said. "Any pretense that may have existed about the ties between Fox News and the Republican Party has been ripped violently away.

One more cite to go for inclusion as far as I'm concerned. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Jake, you now have what, 30 or 40 citations? Editors here have bent over backwards to accommodate your requests, despite them being unfounded in policy or guidelines. You requested non-partisan sources, we located dozens. Some you ignore, others you dismiss by your own personal standard. You requested quotes, to avoid looking up the article yourself, then proceeded misrepresent the article based on the quote. What you're looking--your own personal standard for inclusion--for remains elusive. Your random requests are tiresome and pointless; I am not playing anymore. Look up and discuss the articles you've already been provided with. --TeaDrinker (talk) 12:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Summary of positions

This page is going in circles, limiting anyone else's ability to enter into the discussion and going over the same material again and again. I propose major discussants state summaries of their views below and we all restrain ourselves from replying to each other. --TeaDrinker (talk) 19:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

This RfC & Have You Stopped Beating Your Wife?

With reams of commentary generated by this as yet unresolved RfC, its perhaps worthwhile to re-consider both its genesis and its composition. Several observations...

• Under what circumstances was this RfC presented? The content discussion had barely commenced (8 comments had been offered) when we were presented with an RfC on the question. Why?

• The RfC was unilaterally composed. Was that composition itself neutral?

• The RfC was unilaterally inserted with no prior discussion as to its efficacy or need. Why?

Here's the RfC again for reference...

NewsCorp, the parent of Fox News Channel, has made a $1 million donation to a GOP organization. Should this incident and the controversy surrounding it be included in the Fox News Channel controversies article? Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant; opponents contend the information is only relevant to the NewsCorp article.

Specifically, consider the neutrality of the following. Here's the "opposition" position as stated...

...opponents contend the information is only relevant to the NewsCorp article.

One would think, in equity, that the corollary to the opposition position might be...

Proponents contend the information is relevant to both Newscorp and Fox News.

Instead, we're offered (emphasis mine)...

Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant.

That's "neutral"?

IMHO, this RfC should have been challenged as to its efficacy and language at its inception. I regret that it wasn't examined more closely when the opportunity presented. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed sadly the RFC rigging that took place with dozens of SPAs arriving overshadowed the more serious flaws in the actual RFC itself. The wording of the RFC was certainly not neutral, and i am unsure if others supported the proposed method of resolving this matter. Its clear when the issues are actually debated in detail as they have been way below the RFC, the case for inclusion is very weak. It would be unfortunate if these matters are over looked simply because of the mess the above RFC has been. And ofcourse this RFC could still go on for another couple of weeks. A sentence that clearly lacks neutrality remains in the article. It should have been locked on the article without the text in. :\ BritishWatcher (talk) 14:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that it's not neutral it should have read: "Proponents contend that the widespread accusations against FNC of Republican bias makes this information relevant; opponents contend the proponents contension of "widespread accusations" is a false characterization of what they view as relatively little criticism levied at Fox. Oh well, back to arguing.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikiposter, "Have you stopped beating your wife / Have you stopped beating yours?" is not exactly what I had in mind. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

???? What?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Your suggested text (unless you were simply being facetious) simply compounds the problem by balancing prejudicial text with more prejudicial text. Either way, it's after the fact supposin'. The RfC was clearly prejudicial at its inception. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Didn't realize what I wrote. This should be fine then.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/controversy

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