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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Shuki

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by MarshallBagramyan

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2, beginning from July 23, topic-banned for three months from pages or edits related to Armenia or Azerbaijan.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by MarshallBagramyan

Just over a month ago, I was imposed with a three month topic ban by administrator Sandstein. The topic ban followed on the heels of a counter-complaint by a user named Tuscumbia, whom I had previously filed an arbitration complaint for edit warring. The result was that both of us were topic banned from editing articles relating to Armenia and Azerbaijan for three months (our exchange on the article in question can be found in whole here: ).

I initially did not contest the ban because I, paradoxically enough, viewed it as a refreshing way of backing away from the acrimonious debates and arguments I had been involved in. My ban, however, was not imposed because of edit-warring, as Tuscumbia's was. Rather, it was partially due to comments perceived to be incivil. I had used the word "stinky" to describe an argument used by Tuscumbia on an article talk page, and as I reflect upon it now, it does seem to be a rather poor choice of wording (the word "poor" would probably have worked instead) and I'm now at odds at how that even came about. The other reason the ban was imposed was because of my contention that a certain line of reasoning was consistently being used by the editors from Azerbaijan. However, I want to stress, in no uncertain terms, that this argument was simply intended as an observation of a pattern I found troubling on Misplaced Pages - far from, as Sandstein believed, me attempting to turn Misplaced Pages into a battleground between two or more ethnic groups. Perhaps in this case, too, my word selection could have been improved, but I wish the reviewers here to clearly understand that no malice was intended on my part.

I also came to the belated realization that Tuscumbia and I were literally not understanding each other on the article we were editing. He continued to press me to provide him with "extra details" of a book I had cited, without realizing that I was employing the Chicago Manual of Style, which, after citing a source in full more than once, does not necessarily require that the publication information, publication date, etc. be reproduced in following citations. Apparently, he was not familiar with the CMS and did not understand that the following citations were all coming from the same book (a problem compounded by the fact that there are 4 volumes with the same title but different subtitles). Gallons of ink, so to speak, were spilled in the reverts that followed, with neither one of us actually realizing the gist of the problem (or lack thereof)

I did not bother challenging the block because, as I said, I viewed it as a sort of mixed-blessing. In the month since I have been banned, I've been allowed to go on temporary wiki-breaks and edit other articles which I have had an interest in. Be that as it may, I feel that the block was imposed on a misunderstanding or two and I wish that my three month block simply be commuted to the amount of time that I have been editing under restrictions (1 month, plus change). For good measure, perhaps the imposition of a 1 week revert parole for the next 2-3 weeks can also be added on the same articles in question.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I beg to differ. It is wrong to misinterpret my comment and dismiss it as simply another case of someone trying to incite ethnic antagonism on Misplaced Pages. My intention was not at all as you described it. While I do not wish to dwell on the validity of my argument, I do freely admit that it was poorly formulated and that I could have exerted a greater effort to elucidate it with more proper wording. In regards to my lack of editing activity: my contributions prior to my ban may have focused on articles relating to Armenia but they also included numerous articles on films, video games, Byzantium, the Middle Ages, the Middle East, the Soviet Union/Russia, among other topics. It is also, after all, summer and hence vacation time, and over the past few weeks I have been away from the computer for long spells, and have had sporadic, if any, access to the internet, preventing me from carrying out edits which I otherwise would have done.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I feel that NovaSkola's comments below are inappropriately intrusive so I will simply address Stifle's comments for the moment. I'm not quite sure what sort of "convincing" would be satisfactory but I can only reiterate that I am not asking for a full lifting of the ban. I have suggested that, in exchange for it, that I be placed in revert parole for a period of time. I can in the meantime promise to try edit more articles outside of my "niche" as Sandstein has termed it but my limited access to the internet currently prevents me from doing so. I think the comments which landed me the ban in the first place were misconstrued, and given the generally intense atmosphere found on any article or talk page relating to Armenia or Azerbaijan, I can understand why it was imposed so rapidly in the first place. Like I said above, I didn't bother contesting it for a number of reasons, but I feel that the 3 month ban period does not at all correspond to the infraction that I committed. For lack of proper confidence-building measures, would the administrators instead be more amenable to commuting the ban from 3 months down to 2, and imposing 1-RR restrictions for the remainder of the period?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

The discussion leading to that ban can be found here. This appeal by MarshallBagramyan does not convince me that his comment at issue, "Falsely alleging POV is ... a stinky argument and one which has been vainly used by the Azerbaijanis time and time again", should not be understood as exactly the sort of nationalist battleground behavior that the remedy was intended to address, conceiving of Misplaced Pages as a contest between nationalities rather than a collaboration between individuals. I am also concerned that MarshallBagramyan's editing until the ban on July 23 seemed to be entirely focused on issues related to the area of conflict (ethno-national conflicts in the area in and around Armenia) and that he has since made very few content contributions. It is seldom helpful to the encyclopedia to focus one's editing entirely on a contested area, see WP:ARBR&I#Single purpose accounts. The topic ban will help MarshallBagramyan demonstrate that he is indeed capable of editing neutrally outside his niche topic, which happens to be a particular focus of contention. Accordingly, I recommend that this appeal be declined.  Sandstein  05:02, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment concerning NovaSkola (talk · contribs)'s contribution below: Although I agree on the merits, I don't think that a user whose user page reads "God Bless Azerbaijan and My People!!!!" should post in the section designated for discussion among uninvolved editors.  Sandstein  11:20, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by MarshallBagramyan

• Bearing in mind MarshallBagramyan has been sanctioned three times under A-A before, I am not sure if further leniency is merited here. I remain open to being convinced otherwise. Stifle (talk) 08:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
• I agree, this user has been warned too many times to given second chance. It is time put end to this gameplay.--NovaSkola (talk) 08:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
• Does it matter whether Marshall's original comment was correct? After all, the A-A sanctions were imposed because there are conflicting national factions (and Marshall is a leading member of one of them) on those articles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by MarshallBagramyan

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Appeal denied. Sandstein's action was reasonable. One way to convince us on a future appeal would be to list specific articles you'd like to edit, and say what changes you'd like to make. We make decisions around here based on what is best for the encyclopedia. If you can show how you would improve the encyclopedia, you may get a better result next time. Please think about this and wait a reasonable time before filing another appeal. Jehochman 12:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Captain Occam

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Captain Occam

User requesting enforcement

Wapondaponda (talk) 18:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_topic-banned

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Using a proxy account Ferahgo the Assassin to canvass another user, Victor Chmara to revert a specific edit. Victor Chmara went on to revert as per request
2. Ferahgo the Assassin canvasses for more help. Ferahgo the Assassin does not want to do the job by themselves for "fear of being labeled a meatpuppet".
3. Misplaced Pages:Meat#Meatpuppetry states "For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity"

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

See additional comments

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Extension of topic ban to include proxy accounts.

Two weeks have passed since arbcom votes were finalized that led to Captain Occam's editing restrictions. During these two weeks, Captain Occam has gamed his editing restrictions, firstly by claiming that the race (classification of human) was not within the scope of his ban, and secondly by using a proxy account. Almathea, an uninvolved administrator who closed the Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Captain Occam case, has suggested based on the investigation that Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin should be considered as one entity. According to the proposed enforcement,

Should any user subject to a topic ban in this case violate that ban, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year, with the topic ban clock restarting at the end of each block.

Topic bans are a relatively mild editing restriction, as the IP below has mentioned, the topic ban still leaves an editor with more than 99.99 % of Misplaced Pages available for editing. Furthermore, the topic ban is only a temporary measure, in this case six months, meant to deescalate the dispute. Captain Occam will get an opportunity to work on race and intelligence articles again. But seeing that Captain Occam has not appreciated the opportunity given to him to prove that he has the overall interest of the project at heart, it is worth considering applying a temporary software restriction. Captain Occam is a high maintenance editor, and a software restriction might give some relief to the community. It would also give Captain Occam a chance to go cold turkey on race and intelligence matters as a preparation for the topic ban. As an involved editor, I have my biases, but I believe this suggestion will help deescalate the situation. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

There are previous discussions concerning this matter at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Meat and at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification. In both these discussions Captain Occam and or Ferahgo the Assassin are advised to avoid the appearance of Meatpuppetry.

Responses

@Ferahgo the Assassin/Captain Occam. The whole purpose of using proxy accounts is to create as much ambiguity concerning the independence of the proxy account because proxy accounts will in some aspects be independent since they are a separate individuals from the main account. Ferahgo the Assassin states "Suppose for a second that I really am not a sock of Occam, and that I'm not a meatpuppet either". Yes I have been prepared to consider this, but unfortunately your editing pattern tells a different story. As of today you have made about 150 edits to wikipedia since 2006 , most of these are unrelated to race and intelligence (dinosaurs etc which is great). However all of your edits to race and intelligence related material were to support Captain Occam or his POV. Therefore your editing record on race and intelligence issues has not demonstrated any independence.

Given the ambiguity of proxy accounts, I consider it a perfect loophole ready for exploitation. Furthermore, it is in our human nature to have a soft spot for wiki-romances, so I believe this is going to be a difficult case to handle. But given the recent history of the dispute I think this is serious issue as once again, the community is being sidetracked from addressing content issues.

Though not essential, if Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Captain Occam is accepted, the report may provide some useful information for this case.

Clarification

Captain Occam states "Ferahgo has also been registered at Misplaced Pages since 2008". Maybe that was the first edit, but according to Captain Occam's log, he registered his account on 11 November 2006 at 05:18. According to Ferhago the Assassin's log, the user registered their account on 11 November 2006 at 06:01.

Notifications

Captain Occam notified

Ferahgo the Assassin notified

Victor Chmara notified

Final comments I don't intend to pursue this matter any further, I think that all the information that is necessary to make a decision is in place, the only thing that is missing is the decision itself, that is whether or not Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin should be considered a single entity WRT race and intelligence matters. The information may not be in the correct noticeboard, but it is still available nonetheless. I guess being an arbiter is a thankless job, one has to wade through mounds of information, for different cases, and then take on the burden of making the right decision, whatever that may be. As such, I don't see the need to burden the arbiters with more amendments, clarifications and other bureaucratic procedures while the case is still fresh.

However my opinion remains the same, Ferahgo the Assassin's involvement in R&I matters pretty much nullifies Captain Occam's topic ban. Many editors have given advice to Ferahgo the Assassin stating that it would be best for the user to voluntarily observe Captain Occam's topic ban. From my experience with Captain Occam, advice that is not in line with his predispositions is of little value to him, and this is evident as Ferahgo the Assassin/Captain Occam continue their involvement in race and intelligence maters.

My main interest is in helping to deescalate the dispute, not specifically to get certain editors restricted or sanctioned, though I am of the opinion that temporary sanctions would help. Whatever deescalates the dispute is fine with me. Wapondaponda (talk) 01:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Captain Occam

Statement by Captain Occam

This report seems to be an example of a recurring problem that exists at Misplaced Pages. The problem is that when one user expresses support for another’s viewpoint, many users seem to assume that this in itself is evidence of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. I’ve been loosely following the Climate Change case that’s currently in progress, so I’m aware of how often that problem has arisen in this article: that when editors show up who have opinions similar to those of Scibaby, a known sockpuppeteer, this is taken as them being evidence of them being Scibaby sockpuppets even though in some cases they aren’t. One of the proposed remedies is specifically intended to address this problem: “An editor who brings forward the same or similar view as a blocked or banned user should not automatically be assumed to be a sockpuppet or meatpuppet in the absence of other evidence.”

There is evidence that Ferahgo the Assassin and I know one another off-wiki, but is there evidence that they’re actually a meatpuppet—that is, a user who joined Misplaced Pages specifically in order to support me? Unlike Scibaby, I have no past history of sockpuppetry. Ferahgo has also been registered at Misplaced Pages since 2008, which was well before they or I were involved in these articles, and during the time since then at least nine-tenths of their edits have had nothing to do with supporting me or my viewpoint. If arbitrators are going to apply the same standards of evidence for sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry here they intend to apply to the climate change article, I think it’s pretty obvious that this user’s having a viewpoint similar to mine and knowing me off-wiki are not enough to qualify.

For that matter, I don’t think Ferahgo has said enough about their viewpoint on this topic for anyone to know how similar their viewpoint is to mine. Muntuwandi writes, “However all of your edits to race and intelligence related material were to support Captain Occam or his POV.” Ferahgo has never edited any race and intelligence related articles themselves, and during the two years they’ve been registered they’ve probably left no more than 15 comments on talk pages related to this. Based on those 15 talk page comments, is it justified to state that this user “has not demonstrated any independence”? On the basis of the small amount they’ve revealed about their viewpoint on this topic, their viewpoint could also be considered consistent with the viewpoints expressed by David.Kane, Varoon Arya, DistributiveJustice, Bpesta22, or Rvcx, the last four of whom have neither been sanctioned nor accused of being socks. In the absence of any evidence other than this that Ferahgo the Assassin is a “proxy account” of mine, this request for them to be topic banned is about conduct not covered by the arbitration ruling, which according to the notice at the top of the page does not belong here.

If the community is being sidetracked from addressing content issues, it’s because of these constant accusations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry. I’m confident that if Ferahgo could be treated the same way on these articles as any other user, nobody would notice anything non-neutral or disruptive about their editing patterns. But instead, they’ve been treated with such hostility that it’s apparently made them afraid to participate in the articles at all, except by bringing up possible issues with other editors in their user talk. This hostility was initiated by Mathsci, who’s now topic banned for his history of personal attacks against other users, and his repeatedly cutting off Ferahgo’s attempts to participate in discussions about these articles with these accusations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry was one example of the behavior for which Mathsci was sanctioned. Topic banning Mathsci was one step towards restoring normalcy to the editing environment on these articles, but if administrators want to stop the community from being sidetracked like this, they also need to stop this same behavior from being repeated by other users.--Captain Occam (talk) 01:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Captain Occam

• The concern is legitimate, as Captain Occam regularly asked other editors via their talk pages to help edit according to his point of view on various articles, as confirmed by the findings of fact in the recent ArbCom case. On Victor's behalf, I will say that I think he makes independent decisions about what to edit in articles and what to leave as is. Victor and I definitely don't think alike about how to edit the articles we both edit—which is why I expect to learn a lot from him—and I would hate to see him be put in a position of being blamed if other editors ask him to do edits that they are unwilling to do in their own names. Thus, if this is seen as sanctionable conduct, one issue to think about in framing the sanction would be to ensure that Victor is left by himself to make his own decisions that he discusses with unsanctioned editors on his or their talk pages, or on article talk pages. I currently see Victor's conduct on the articles that are within the scope of the recent case as challenging in the best sense of that word: he puts other editors to their proof to ensure that articles are properly sourced. I don't see his conduct as currently violative of any Misplaced Pages principles or guidelines. On my part, I will probably take extra care to make my communications with other editors about articles in this category appear on the article talk pages (or category or WikiProject talk pages) to avoid any possibility of secret canvassing, which I hear is quite disfavored on Misplaced Pages. But other editors of all points of view are welcome to visit my talk page if they have something to say to me directly. I think the atmosphere since the decision in the ArbCom case has been constructive and civil and has helped several editors have more time for looking up sources because of less time spent on wikidrama. I look forward to that new atmosphere continuing. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 20:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Ferahgo the Assassin wrote on my talk page about questionable content in The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy, asking me to take a look at it. I reviewed the content, and removed it after finding it to be original research unsupported by the claimed sources (one of which seemed to be a personal webpage). At this point, I didn't think there was anything suspicious about Ferahgo's request, because I didn't think he had been involved in R&I disputes and he seemed to have an edit history largely unrelated to R&I, and because The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy is an article I have been generally involved with anyway.

However, Ferahgo's follow-up post on my talk page raised my suspicions, and I would have questioned him about why he does not do the edits himself if this Arbitration enforcement case had not come up. If Ferahgo is indeed a meatpuppet or sockpuppet of Occam or some other topic-banned user, I naturally don't want to abet them in their policy violations.--Victor Chmara (talk) 20:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

• I don't know that Ferahgo should fall under the topic ban, even though she knows Captain Occam in real life. However, if she wants to participate I think it should be done above board on the articles talk pages, preferably by doing the research and reading herself instead of lobbying other users to intervene on her behalf. aprock (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
• Feragho was warned twice that, given her real life relationship with Captain Occam, sudden entry into the topic area just after his topic ban was unlikely to go over well. It may also be interesting to note that within 20 edits of starting her account which still has less than 200 edits in the year it's been open, Feragho popped in to defend Captain Occam , has continued to do so throughout this dispute , and has a strikingly similar opinion on the dispute. There's a wide world of Misplaced Pages out there that wouldn't be a concern. Shell 23:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I see from her latest post that Feragho shares another characteristic with Captain Occam: an inability to accept responsibility for their own actions. Roger Davies 10:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• Advice to Ferahgo for how to edit these articles without upset. a) Wait until after Captain Occam's article restrictions are up. b) Reflect on the messages that arb comm has given Captain Occam, which were Loud and Clear. In order to learn, you have to listen when you're being told not to do something. c) Gain considerably more experience editing elsewhere. d) Avoid temptation-stay completely away from the articles and their talk pages, don't even read them, during your sabatical. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Occam is indefinitely topic banned, so waiting until his restriction is up might mean never getting to edit them at all. I know that's probably the safest thing to do, but it's hardly fair: I've never done anything sanctionable on these articles. What I'd like advice on is how I can participate in them without offending people.

I've seen the message arbcom has given Occam, and I've seen what he's done wrong. I won't make the same mistakes if given the opportunity to participate. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The decision lays out the course of action which would allow that the ban might be lifted. You've already made two of the same mistakes. You've resorted to talk page recruitment to circumvent fallout from editing there directly, acknowledging as you did so that direct involvement on your part would likely invoke charges of meat puppetry. Don't canvass, don't use other editors to execute edits for you. Second, you're pushing back rather than learning from advice and warnings when they're given you. Your editing of these articles has every appearance of meat puppetry, you've been warned not to do it: that's usually all it takes, no polygraph tests or truth serums required. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Occam was banned for edit warring and false claims of consensus. His finding of fact doesn't mention contacting other users on their talk pages, and I honestly did not know that contacting a single user for their input on an issue would be a problem. Trust me, I've definitely learned from my mistake and I won't be doing that again. I thought that reverting an edit would be regarded as more combative than pointing out that I disagree with them on a user's talk page, and asking them for their opinion, but it's clear that I was wrong.

That said, I think it's obvious that I won't be able to convince you of anything here. I already explained why I think that my behavior and my pattern of contributions are not consistent with what constitutes meatpuppetry. If this isn't enough to make a difference to anyone, then it looks like maybe Vecrumba is right: that the only way I can possibly get people to assume good faith about me is to pretend that Occam's topic ban applies to me, despite my having violated nothing.

The amount of hostility that's shown to newcomers on these articles - if they have unpopular opinions, anyway - is truly astounding. And not just in regards to myself, either. While I've been watching these articles, I've seen several others being given basically the same treatment, despite having violated as little as I have. If this hostility extends to topic banning me from these articles despite having never edited them, then this is going to show me something about Misplaced Pages that I find pretty distasteful. I'd like to contribute positively to these articles, but at this point it's a matter of principle for me also. I would like to be treated fairly here. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 03:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an "anyone can edit" encyclopedia which extends tremendous faith in its editors, without even knowing their names, without background checks, without credentials, recommendations or any other of the bona fides demanded in most such spheres. But there's only so much AGF that can be extended without becoming such an overt invitation for abuse that its most civic minded, time invested volunteers are ashamed their involvement helped lend the project "legitimacy". Don't take it personally. But they have to draw the line somewhere. When an editor walks like a duck, squawks like one, swims with the duck, lives and migrates with 'em, edits from the same IPs, vacations with 'em, coordinates on blogs and websites together, and commiserates like one, probably daily, over how unfair and unwelcoming wikipedia is together.....well, wikipedia has to draw a line someplace. And drawing it just about here doesn't seem so outrageous to me. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

I've never actually edited these articles before, but I've always been interested in them and in this topic. Up until recently I've been reluctant to get involved because of the way the editing atmosphere has historically been, and I didn't want to get in the middle of mudslinging. However, with the addition of the recent discretionary sanctions on the article, I was hoping that would change. I also thought that now that fewer people are participating in these articles, they needed a new set of eyes on them.

Ever since before the arbcom case closed, whenever I've posted anything on any of these articles I've gotten accusations of being a meatpuppet or a sockpuppet, even though I'm (obviously, in my own view) not. In order to be considered a meatpuppet, I would need to be "A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Misplaced Pages solely for that purpose." You can see that there is no way that this could be the "sole purpose" I'm editing Misplaced Pages. My comments on Victor's userpage are the result of this dilemma. On one hand I want to participate in these articles, and I feel like they need more attention now in general. But on the other hand I'm afraid of how I'll be treated if I started editing them. An arbitrator even suggested that I wait a while before getting involved, which made me even more reluctant to start editing the articles, but now it looks like my caution has worked to my disadvantage.

My comments on Victor's userpage are definitely not for the same reason as Occam's have been in the past. Unlike him, I'm not trying to canvass or tag-team. In my case, it's just that I've been afraid to edit these articles because of how it's gone in the past, but I also felt like these issues needed someone's attention. I also wanted Victor's opinion on them, since I know he's a much more experienced editor than I am. Even though these articles have discretionary sanctions now, it looks like administrators aren't paying attention to instances of original synth and POV-pushing. I had asked an admin earlier here what to do to bring this to an admin's attention, but received no response. I don’t know very much about how to get answers to questions like these, and I really wanted some advice about this.

I find it really disheartening that these accusations are being leveled at me before I've even gotten involved in any actual editing. As far as I know, I've never done anything wrong on any of these articles, and I would at least like to be given the chance to participate here neutrally. If it's not appropriate for me to comment on others' userpages in order to point out problematic material to them, then I can stop doing that, and can instead begin making the edits myself as Aprock suggested.

Suppose for a second that I really am not a sock of Occam, and that I'm not a meatpuppet either. That despite an off-Wiki connection to Occam, I have my own ideas, opinions and style of editing that are separate and distinct from his, and that I'd like to contribute to this part of Misplaced Pages now that I feel like it's finally "safe" for me to edit here. What, then, should I do? How is it fair to prevent me from editing these articles due to something I can't control? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry for seemingly being unable to do anything right here. I am genuinely trying, but everything I do is the wrong thing. If someone can suggest a way for me to participate in these articles like any other user without offending anyone, I'd follow it.-Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 11:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a suggestion at the moment, however, any such suggestion requires an assumption of good faith that your opinion and expression thereof is yours and yours alone. Right now it appears that doing anything (other than editing Peas and Carrots) is the wrong thing. You might stick to discussions at articles for a while until editors can form their own opinions of your editorial viewpoint and conduct independent of other factors. (I myself showed up at an inopportune time and was accused of having shown up for reasons other than my interest in the subject matter area.) This is the best I can offer at the moment. We will only put the arbitration behind us and move forward if we stop going back to it. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 22:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, though, I've already tried sticking to commenting on talk pages - that's what I was trying to do by commenting on Victor Chmara's page. Evidently that's a problem too, since it's why Muntuwandi raised this concern. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Declaring you guilty a priori I think is a bit premature and a continuation of the R&I drama. See WeijiBaikeBianji's offer below to start. I would venture that WeijiBaikeBianji's talk page would also be a neutral venue. Perhaps Muntuwandi would agree to that? I've got very little spare time at the moment and unfortunately this sort of stuff is taking what little attention I can devote at the moment instead of thinking about improving content. I suspect I'm not alone. The arbitration was supposed to close all this drama so editors could get back to content, not to be a launching point for continuation of the conflict. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

To some closing comments recently added herein, IMHO going to enforcement right after an arbitration contending A (Occam) = B (Ferahgo) is well and good, but until "B" edits a critical mass of content in the style and substance of "A" and confronts opposing viewpoints in the style of "A" and draws the same conclusions regarding editors of opposing viewpoints as "A" and does all of the above in an adversarial manner, etc., etc., etc., the enforcement request here comprises the escalation. "B" is entitled to contribute until there is more than supposition and a few diffs here and there. It's up to "B" to withstand scrutiny. Advice and offers have been extended on engaging constructively. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Comment by 67.119.3.248

Ferahgo, being locked out of editing 0.01% of Misplaced Pages without direct cause, while remaining free to edit in the other 99.99%, is indeed not 100% fair. However, in some reasonable sense of the word, it's 99.99% fair, or anyway better than 90% fair. That's more fairness than anyone can hope for in a heck of a lot of areas of life in general, so it's best to just accept it as part of the cards you've been dealt. Remember that arbcom's job is to do what's best for the project as a whole, even when that involves dealing out tiny doses of unfairness to individual editors. Massive unfairness is bad for the project, but this doesn't anywhere near qualify.

Being intensely desirous to edit in one contentious subject area is itself a sign of over-investment in that subject. It's better to disengage from such areas and stay in areas you can maintain more detachment. You're making nice contributions about dinosaurs and it's obvious from your illustration skills that you know a lot about art. So those are immediately obvious areas where you can help out. The more contentious subjects in WP are generally pretty disreputable anyway, as well as being unpleasant to work in. I gave up on them a long time ago. What good reputation Misplaced Pages has in the world, comes mostly from subject areas (like art and science and literature) that are comparatively conflict-free on-wiki. You'll help the project a lot more by contributing to its high-quality coverage of reputable and uncontentious topics, than by crawling down to its "slums" and participating in its gang wars.

I, as an unregistered user, am locked out of 1000's of articles that are semi-protected due to vandalism, even though I've never vandalized anything. Some of those articles are on topics I'd quite like to contribute to. What do I do about it? Shrug my shoulders and edit other articles instead. There are plenty, so many that I could never get to them all no matter what. It's no big deal. You can do the same.

Regards, 67.119.3.248 (talk) 02:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: "I, as an unregistered user, am locked out of 1000's of articles" This is your choice, so I fail to see how you are "locked" out of anything. What do you do about it? If you were sufficiently motivated, you'd register and not kvetch about it. "I have chosen to remain an unregistered user and to not participate in 1000's of articles" would be the appropriate statement in your case. You will pardon my cynicism (or is it idealism?) but if every contentious topic were abandoned to gang wars as you seem to propose, WP wouldn't be much of an encyclopedia. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Peters, you're on the right track, but take it to the next level: we all choose to edit Misplaced Pages (if we're here), which means dealing with Misplaced Pages's million outrages large and small. Trying to battle every single one of them is not a route to being a happy editor. Anyone who feels entitled to an outrage-free editing experience (as Ferahgo seems) is simply doomed to disappointment. The winning formula is "don't sweat the small stuff". You missed my point about being locked out of semi-protected articles, which is that they are part of the small stuff. That lockout issue is so low in my hierarchy of wiki-annoyances that I don't even remember it most of the time.

Regarding contentious articles, it's really true IMO that 1) the conflict in them ruins their credibility so much that they're turned into crap not worth reading, 2) most of the byzantine content policies and bureaucratic and antagonistic culture in Misplaced Pages grew out of disputes in those articles, but then they pollute the whole encyclopedia, so the battles in the conflicted articles make the unconflicted ones worse, and 3) editing effectively in conflicted areas takes experience that Ferahgo does not yet have. So I don't think having Ferahgo active in R&I topics is likely to help those articles very much at the present time and I don't think the articles help the project that much. I also urged Mathsci to quit the R&I topic before the arb case for about the same reasons, since we need him much more in other areas.

I do think the AE admins (despite what Stifle says) are entitled to make a factfinding about the original request regarding possible proxy editing. I don't have a strong view of what they should decide. Your A=B analysis seems reasonable to me. WeijiBaikeBianji's approach may also be an ok starting point, though if Ferahgo comes under the topic ban then WeijiBaikeBianji's proxying has to stop. Or Muntuwandi could open a clarification request. That would be more legitimate than Captain Occam's boundary probing that led to Aprock's clarification request. If Ferahgo is topic banned from R&I because of her association with Captain Occam, that's collateral damage from Captain Occam's sanction, just like if I get caught in a range block because some other user of my ISP is vandalizing and IP hopping, or even if I try to enroll or use an account from school but my school's IP is hard blocked. None of these are 100% fair, but the standard for deciding is supposed to be "which way is the project better off". 67.122.209.135 (talk) (New address due to ISP instability that I'm trying to get fixed) 04:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I know this is kind of tangential, but I’d like to know what you mean by “Captain Occam's boundary probing that led to Aprock's clarification request”. What led to Aprock’s clarification request was my stating on the talk page for the Race (classification of humans) article that after my topic ban happened, I intended to stop participating in this article even though I considered this a voluntary decision on my part. Even though I did not intend to continue participating in these articles whether they were covered by my topic ban or not, Snowded, Slrubenstein and WeijiBaikeBianji all considered it unacceptable for me to consider this a voluntary decision, and set out to prove that I had no choice in the matter. this was the comment from me that initiated the argument over this.

This might seem like something that doesn’t matter, but based on the number of people who have been claiming that I was “testing the limits of my ban” or “determined to continue editing race-related articles”, I can already tell that there’s a good chance of this being a rumor about me that will endure for quite a while. It may even be a rumor that will work to my disadvantage in a few months when I have the option of appealing my topic ban, so it’s really something that I think should be set to rest, if possible. Anyone who thinks this is the case needs to read the discussion on the talk page for the race article that led to Aprock’s clarification request, and in particular my comments there. Did I ever state there that I wanted to continue editing this article after my topic ban? --Captain Occam (talk) 07:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm going by the proposed decision talk page from the arb case. I did read that page. 67.122.209.135 (talk) 08:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The proposed decision talk page is one of the best examples of what I’m talking about. On that page, Snowded and WeijiBaikeBianji claimed that I was displaying the “same agenda” on the race article, and linked to the comment from me that I linked to here, in which I announced my lack of intention to continue editing this article. It looks like a lot of people have just taken their word about what my intentions were, without bothering to check whether the diff they were providing actually supported what they were saying. Did you look at the comment from me that they were linking to, and see that what I said in it was the opposite of what they were claiming about me? --Captain Occam (talk) 13:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Aprock's clarification request, which I seconded, was simply to have clarity on what is in and out of scope of the "Race and intelligence" topic ban (that is, articles, nothing to do with editors) so that recriminations and accusations and unfortunate downward-spiraling perceptions of intent could all be avoided. It had nothing to do with allowing Occam to continue to edit anything. The ban is the ban, all that was requested was clarity to avoid needless sturm und drang.

@Occam: Once the WP:DOGS are let loose there is nothing you can do to put the proverbial toothpaste back into the tube. All you can do is confront misrepresentation on a case by case basis. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Amalthea

Per WP:SHARE: "Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Misplaced Pages's purposes if they edit with the same objectives." I accept that Ferahgo the Assassin and Captain Occam were created by two distinct persons. However, per WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Captain Occam, they are closely related, and Ferahgo is thus essentially topic-banned from "race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed" along with Captain Occam.
I do not see need for any action at this point beyond making this clear. Amalthea 10:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

It's the "editing with the same objectives" that won't apply in my own case. I'm aware that I expressed some content opinions that were similar to Occam's before his topic ban; there was nothing wrong with doing so at that point. When we were both allowed to participate, we only needed to be careful to not violate 3RR and other stuff that would be a violation if done by a single user. But because of Occam's ban, I intend for my future participation in this article to be very different from his. I don't even intend to make edits that would make it clear what my viewpoint is if it weren't already public knowledge.

What I think would be a fair decision from this thread is for an admin to tell me that I'm allowed to participate in these articles, but that I need be absolutely independent, neutral, and non-contentious. If someone wants to scrutinize my edits to make sure I'm behaving, that would be fine. But before having ever edited them all, I think I deserve some amount of rope here. You'll never know if I can edit these articles differently from Occam without being given a chance. If I screw up, then it would be extremely easy to topic ban me after the fact, and I doubt I'd even raise an objection. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 12:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I would certainly consider it only friendly and helpful, a contribution to Misplaced Pages, if you made suggestions in my user space about sources. If you know of sources that other Wikipedians don't know about, share the knowledge. If you have thoughts about which sources are most valuable, please let everyone know. Misplaced Pages is all about verifiability through reliable sources, and my biggest concern as I surf around Misplaced Pages is how many more and better sources most articles need. Anyone who is well familiar with an academic library, especially an academic library with medically reliable sources, can help the project greatly by telling other editors about those sources. I'll do the work of verifying the bibliographic data for each source and typing up those data in citation tag format. You and other users can help by thinking out loud on the suggestions page of the bibliography about how the sources differ and what signs of reliability each source has. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:09, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Vecrumba

Both WeijiBaikeBianji and I have made suggestions to Ferahgo regarding ways to constructively participate which would demonstrate and build good faith. (Personally, some of my best and brightest and closest friends are ones with whom I disagree vehemently on certain topics.) It would be beneficial to put away the unofficial memes of guilty until proven innocent, meatpuppet for agreeing with another editor (regardless of reputable sources), etc. As there are ArbCom eyes on conduct, I would strongly suggest all participants at R&I articles "widely construed" —if they are really interested in taking conflict and drama out of the system—to (a) desist from reporting other participants for enforcement actions and (b) desist from lobbying admins et al. on personal talk pages to kvetch about other participants. Articles have talk pages for a reason, let's keep discussions where they belong, and on the topic at hand instead of speculation which can only be inflammatory. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:18, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I beg to differ, if an editor violates a policy, it is appropriate and necessary to report them. Otherwise problems will remain hidden from the wider community. We know which editors lobby admins the most (this includes lobbying Jimbo Wales). The onus is on editors to avoid conduct that is likely to be reported. Misplaced Pages is not the mafia or a street gang that does not report violations made by others. Wapondaponda (talk) 12:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Captain Occam

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• There does not appear to me to be anything that could be done to resolve this matter that is intra vires this noticeboard. We can't give declaratory relief; either Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin are meatpuppets or they are not, but that is a finding of fact which we will not make. But if they are, then there is a topic-ban violation which any admin can sanction without further ado, and if they are not, then the matter should be referred back to ArbCom by way of a request for amendment. Stifle (talk) 08:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• I can't do legalese as Stifle can, but I basically agree. This page is to enforce decisions made by ArbCom, and ArbCom has no findings about User: Ferahgo the Assassin that I can see. Whether she and Captain Occam are meatpuppets is not a determination that can or should be made here. However, Ferahgo has been given lots of good advice here, and my personal opinion is also that considering the information available about the accounts and their/your relationship, it would be best to avoid the subject area altogether while Captain Occam is topic-banned. While I am sympathetic to the notion that the individuals in a relationship remain individuals, in this case I think there is reasonable evidence for concern about how independent the edits and opinions actually are. If Ferahgo has information to contribute unconnected to Captain Occam, she could cautiously take up User: WeijiBaikeBianji's offer and see if that can lead to a reputation for NPOV and collaborative editing that others would welcome in other areas of article development. If not, I suspect an Arbcom amendment would be the result. --Slp1 (talk) 00:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Nishidani

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Nishidani

User requesting enforcement

Broccoli (talk) 19:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Commenting on I/P related topic
2. Commenting on I/P related topic
3. Commenting on I/P related topic

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

block

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Nishidani violated his topic ban, and it is not first time already. Please enforse the sunctions.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff link

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statement by Nishidani

Okay. Despite my desire to ignore this, after this edit, which rehashes Cptnono's point, and which was quickly elided and replaced by this below, the plaintiff Broccoli appears to insinuate, by the rhetorical device of a mischievous query without basis in what Roland wrote, that Roland is charging Mr Wales with a '"racially-motivated abuse" towards Peter Cohen. Since Roland spoke on my behalf, I feel obliged to reciprocate the courtesy. Roland, like Peter, and myself, is alluding to a very complex history of interactions with Einsteindonut, who in 2008 questioned Peter's ethnicity, and went on to smear him, as did the JIDF organization, and DA, whom most presume on good grounds to be Einsteindonut's lumpenavatar. Roland's words are directed to this, not to Mr Wales.

As a matter of curiosity, you have made 1200 edits in nearly 3 years. We have, I believe, never edited the same pages. Never crossed paths. Why this sudden focus on three remarks made, among hundreds by dozens of editors, which I happened to make in defence of a Jewish editor's integrity and reputation on wikipedia, one a rather humorously ironic joust at a person who caused immense disruption, and outside of wikipedia, would have deserved stronger language?

When I said I would defend Peter even if in doing so, I was 'risking' an extension of my I/P ban, I was not referring to the Arbcom decision. I was referring to the fact that, from experience, I am tracked and trailed from edit to edit, and 'dobbed in' or 'grassed' if there is even the slightest possibility my words might well be maliciously twisted so that they could seem to allude, by any stretch of the imagination, to Israel and Palestine. I.e. I knew that in defending a Jewish person, there was the strong likelihood that someone out there who enjoys pettifogging might slip into that faulty syllogism which runs:'Ah, Nishidani spoke about (on behalf of) Jews. Israel is Jewish, (at least 80% of it). Arbcom ruled he cannot touch anything regarding Israel. Anything Jewish is Israeli, ergo, gotcha!'. This is the way Cptono thinks, and you repeat it.

If the Arbcom decision effectively marries this antic proposal, then I can't defend the Peter Cohens or Rolands of Misplaced Pages against the kind of smears, often about their ethnicity, they are frequently subject to. The source of this operation (the smearing of Peter Cohen) was a one-man American agitprop operation, that smears Jews. I thought long and hard before intervening in that DA thread because I took to heart the wise caution last month directed my way by Malik Shabazz. Mr Wales, as I see it, stepped into a very complex story without knowing the background, and I thought it my duty to speak up in those terms whatever the consequences, in the mind of those who lurk for fishing opportunities to run to the cops, precisely because many editors are unfamiliar with the details.

For the record, though subject over the years, as my archives show, to repeated attacks calling me all names from anti-Semite to Jew-basher to Israel-hater, I have never once referred those editors to Arbcom. I think this tells something on behalf of my bona fides, whatever the specious diffs of my shortlist of sanctions may appear to suggest. I can understand why appeal for sanctions is sometimes required in order to remove obstinate POV-warriors and make editing easier, but I don't personally subscribe to it, because esp. in the I/P area all recourse to wikilaw, rather than patient discussion, lends itself to manipulation and gaming. In fact the I/P area cannot be edited seriously because it optimizes rallying the numbers to determine content, warring and temptations to use administrative fiats to out editors. Being banned from it, objectively, was a relief, though it saddens me to see that nothing has changed. Tutto qua.Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Conflict of interest. I am related to Cohens, though I have never met Peter. The fact he is a Cohen no doubt plays a minor role in my motivation to see he gets the respect that is his due, but it's generally a matter of being brought up among postwar refugees from Nazism and Stalinism, and learning the lesson very early that even a small mental twitch of ethnic unease, or discrimination of any variety, class or cultural, in someone must set one on guard.Nishidani (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Nishidani

• The second diff does not work. The other two do not relate to editing in the IP area, but to defending an editor facing apparently racially-motivated abuse. This complaint is without foundation. RolandR (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

• Except for a reference to Masada2000's S.H.I.T. List ("Self-Hating and/or Israel-Threatening"), I don't see anything that could be interpreted as related to Israel or Palestine. Agree with Roland that there's no basis for this complaint. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

• The timestamp of the second diff seems to indicate this edit is the one being referred to. The relevant sanction says, and I quote directly, "He is prohibited from editing any article in the area of conflict, commenting on any talk page attached to such an article, or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles." If the sanction was intended to ensure that the individual refrain from even discussing matters at ANI, which all three links are to, then perhaps enforcement is justified. Having said that, I am not myself convinced that it is necessarily a good idea to sanction someone for discussing a community ban, which seems to be what all three posts related to. I believe it would send a very bad message to the community. John Carter (talk) 20:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Even if the sanction did preclude Nishidani from commenting on ANI community ban Discussions (and I don't believe it does), his edits referred to above would not be covered. They have absolutely nothing to do with Israel or Palestine, and everything to do with defending a Jewish editor from racially-motivated hostility. RolandR (talk) 20:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Well, user:Mbz1 was blocked for 48 hours for this edit. The edit was made on AE, and had absolutely nothing to do with I/P conflict area. Not to block user:Nishidani for a much worse topic ban violation would be unjustifiable. Broccoli (talk) 22:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
      • Do you understand that Mbz1 was commenting about an anti-Israel image? How do Nishidani's comments relate to Israel or Palestine? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 22:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Why is this even being debated? "...or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles." Since the ANI revolves around Jewish Internet Defense Force it is of course related to the I-P area. He should not be commenting at all and just stay away. He even knows it and said: I think it worth while risking an extension of my I/P permaban to say this. He said a good thing about a guy. That is commendable but he knew what he was asking for. When people start skirting their bans (no matter how trivial it might seem) it causes frustration and therefore disruption. This is similar to restricted editors reverting vandalism. The principle is nice but they just need to stop. No extreme restriction is needed but something is certainly justified.Cptnono (talk) 22:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Follow-up:Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive53 He was in breach then but the reporting was stale. This is at least the second time (are there any others?). Something needs to be done to ensure that there is an understanding that editing within the topic area is not acceptable. The enforcement process is meaningless ff he can continue to knowingly thumb his nose at it. There doesn't need to be blood. Just a clear message that will hopefully result in it not happening again. If he has no concerns at extending his permaban (that was pretty funny) then maybe other actions are necessary.Cptnono (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• I've already expressed my gratitude to Nishidani for his posts in defence of my actions. For those baying for blood, I should like to point out that some time has passed and that any blocks should be deemed necessary to protect Wikpedia not simply punitive. Oh and can someone do something about User:ברוקולי's use of the signature "Broccoli". There already is a user:Broccoli and it should not appear that this user has anything to do with User:ברוקולי's actions.--Peter cohen (talk) 00:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• At the beginning of this year, I discussed the way the way the West Bank - Judea and Samaria sanctions worked with an editor who was a member of the ArbCom at the time they were imposed. My understanding is that restricted editors may edit pages which touch peripherally on the Arab-Israeli conflict so long as they don't edit or add parts which specifically refer to the Arab-Israeli conflict to those pages and so long as their contributions aren't disruptive. Otherwise, as one of the Misplaced Pages editors mentioned on the JIDF's hit list, I think that it is entirely proper that Nishidani participated in a case concerned with whether the leader of the organisation should be allowed to participate on the Misplaced Pages project.     ←   ZScarpia   00:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• Nishidani's comments appear to be technically in breach to me (although I allow room for the fact that some see them as not being in breach). I think, though, that it would be detrimental to the workings of Misplaced Pages to censure non-disruptive one-off contributions to ANI discussions. --FormerIP (talk) 00:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• Nishidani was defending Peter Cohen, who was under a lot of stress trying to deal with a bad situation, and it wouldn't make sense to have yet another Wikipedian fall victim to that situation. SlimVirgin 01:03, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• I'm mildly curious to hear how Broccoli thinks blocking Nishidani would help Misplaced Pages. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• Not that adding another concuring opinion is going to be overly helpful here, but I agree. This seems baseless. Are there any counter measures out there for frivolous submission to AE? NickCT (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe that AE should be enforced fairly or should not be enforced at all.

RolandR and others, please do not make a victim out of user:Peter cohen and a hero out of user: Nishidani

Peter cohen was warned by Jimbo for the first time, and for the second time. Nishidani's

topic ban violation was addressed directly to User:Jimbo Wales

"Mr Wales...". Are you saying that User:Jimbo Wales was

the one who made "racially-motivated abuse" towards user:Peter cohen?--Broccoli (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC

Are you going to stop using someone else's user name as your sig?--Peter cohen (talk) 00:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I will treat that question with the respect that it deserves. RolandR (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Did the arbitration case directly concern the Arab-Israeli conflict? Did Nishidani comment on the Arab-Israeli conflict? Was Nishidani being disruptive?     ←   ZScarpia   19:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Regarding whether Nishidani's comments were a violation, they were pretty much on the borderline. In situations such as this, some discretion is allowable, and given that Nishidani wasn't being disruptive, I don't think a block would achieve anything. PhilKnight (talk) 19:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, re your prior edit, I think it would do a world of good all round. A bock is just what the doctor calls for in these situations :)Nishidani (talk) 19:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• It seems to be a borderline case, but important for WP credibility and fairness for 'boderline' cases to be handled with less tolearnce it seems. Mbz1 was blocked on much less than this as shown above. This would seem like a clear double-standard if nothing is done here. --Shuki (talk) 22:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Nishi's comments were in a thread unrelated to the topic area. Cptnono says it was about the article on the "JIDF", a "Jewish internet defense" group that oddly attacks Jews on the internet. The thread was not about the article on the JIDF and anybody who read the thread would not say that it was. But Nishi needs a forceful reminder that this place is not good enough for him. A block for editing in an area that he is not restricted from would give such a reminder. nableezy - 01:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

• When I asked how the restriction applied to Nishidani and other editors would work, I was told that they may edit articles which touch on the Arab-Israeli conflict (that is, articles that have a scope which goes beyond the A-I conflict) so long as they don't edit the parts of those articles which specifically refer to the A-I conflict. They may also edit the talkpages of those articles so long as they avoid discussing anything related directly to the A-I conflict. Presumably, the same applies to ANI cases. I would say that it's fairly obvious that the JIDF and David Appletree are topics which are not solely concerned with the A-I conflict. Clearly Nishidani didn't address the A-I conflict in his comments. Therefore, judging by what I was told about how the restriction was intended to be applied, Nishidani has not breached it. Other editors subject to the same restriction have been allowed to edit pages whose content is as, or more, related to the A-I conflict as the ANI cases under consideration. Some editors here have commented that they are worried that double standards may be applied, mentioning Mbz1's case. In fact, if Nishidani is subjected to a further sanction, then, as Nishidani has done no more than some other editors subject to the same restriction, a double standard will then have been applied.     ←   ZScarpia   01:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course i see double standards here. mbz1 was blocked when she asked to remove I/P related cartoon . Nishidani was not blocked, when he added I/P related cartoon .--58.8.110.113 (talk) 06:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I see scintillating scotoma when I have an acephalgic migraine. The patterns seem very clear but they aren't really there.
The block log says 12:52, 6 June 2010 Sandstein (talk | contribs) blocked Mbz1 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 72 hours ‎ (Arbitration enforcement: Third violation of Israeli/Arab conflict topic ban, at and User talk:Breein1007).
Nishidani's block log looks like this so you seeing patterns that aren't there based on invalid assumptions about cause and effect. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I.e. read properly, that block log refers to, over my entire history, two blocks in 2007, when I began to edit, for violating 3RR, the first because I didn't understand the way reverts were counted, the second because two people tagteaming, and later banned, kept eliding 3 impeccably reliable sources on one page. The rest were blocks due to administrative error, and overturned almost immediately by community requests to administrators. This was, in the good old days, enough evidence to get one permabanned. So be it, but attempts to compare my exiguous record for violations over some 17,000 edits with habitual evaders of blocks, by people who have a long record for disruption, are offensive, particularly if registered by low performers or IP blowins.Nishidani (talk) 12:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

• The complaint looks like pure harassment to me. The terms of the restriction on Nishidani are clear and Nishidani did not violate them. He did not edit an article or comment on a talk page attached to the article and he did not participate in "a discussion substantially concerned with such articles". It seems to me that "Broccoli" wants to broaden the 15 month old editing restriction, but the time is long past for that. In fact, it's probably time to lift the indefinite restriction on N's editing. N is not a vandal who is likely to repeat his vandalism - he simply wants to introduce a different view into IP articles -- one that is supported by RSs, even though it is not the majority view. Allowing these minority views (if supported by RSs of course) is completely consistent with WP policy and improves article quality. Banning contributors indefinitely and seeking to broaden the bans after the fact, ultimately degrades Misplaced Pages content and drives away open minded contributors. KeptSouth (talk) 14:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec withe below)

Sorry KS, my remarks were phrased in a way that they lent themselves to an interpretation suggesting I 'want' to do something with I/P articles. I was referring to the history of my work in that area, so the proper thing would be to paraphrase that I 'wanted' (to see to it that the 2 active Palestinian editors, as opposed to the several hundred Israeli/Jewish editors in that area, had some assistance from the outside to ensure WP:NPOV was respected). I saw it as an egregious example of systemic bias, for which there was no technical remedy. Therefore no plea to be allowed back, since I have no vocation for martyrdom. The point was, that these episodes of relentless indictment, stalking and harassment, not for any serious disruption (like sockpuppetry etc), but simply to drive people out of wikipedia by a cavilling instrumental focus on niceties of law, that make rather reasonable editors look bad when admins look at the sheer number of denunciations registered on logs, ought eventually to be addressed. They won't be of course. I suppose now that this off-the-cuff reflection can be used against me. I don't care, at this point.Nishidani (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of whether you want to contribute to IP articles again, you should be free to do so. My point is that this request for "enforcement" is baseless, and banning your from Misplaced Pages would be way over the top.KeptSouth (talk) 15:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

• Without wishing to add to the drama, it seems a little cowardly to hide away from this, now I've spotted it. I'm I-P topic banned too, and also commented at ANI, and on Peter's talk page, opposing the attempt by a community-banned user, multiple sockpuppeteer and owner of a website with militaristic stylings that tries to name, out and intimidate WP editors - Jewish and others - to smooth his way to editing here. That individual is also on record as making grossly Islamophobic statements, through that website and on his Twitter account (after his attempt was rebuffed, he them forged an anti-semitic rant that was purported to be from the blocking admin, and posted it on the web. He is now rampaging across WP using multiple IDs, saying “that’s what we wanted”). I can't for the life of me see where there's a breach of any arbitration ruling in raising a voice against that prospect, and in offering some brief support to an editor who felt threatened by that person. None of Nishidani's comments - or mine - were about the I-P conflict, or on or even about pages or topics related to it. This was not a "community discussion substantially concerned with such articles", to quote the restriction directly. Arguably, this one is though. Whoops. Anyway, even if a weakly plausible connection can just about be made through five degrees of separation, as also noted, what benefit would there be to whatever action it is that is actually being requested? N-HH talk/edits 15:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

ps: actually, I'm not sure it's fair to Nishidani to say he represented minority views on I-P issues. And, specifically on the topic ban, like me, he got hit for "edit warring" for requesting the standard international terminology of "West Bank" in WP articles on the conflict, and for making a total of about, oh five reverts over several months on that point. Although like him, I am glad to be free from the madhouse. N-HH talk/edits 15:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No. Worse than that, 8, not five reverts, in two months.Nishidani (talk) 15:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I should have said "minority view on Misplaced Pages" - anything that the JPost or the Likud party would not agree with can be the minority view on I-P and terrorism related Misplaced Pages articles. Just look at how many times these POV pushers edit certain articles, and how often these self same people file ANIs, vandalism charges, etc. against editors they view as their opponents. They are clearly the majority and they usually get their way.

By the way, I support N's right to edit whatever he wants, including the Palestine Israel articles. The small number of reverts over one year ago do not justify an indefinite topic ban. It is a disproportionate punishment for what was largely a misunderstanding on his part. This enforcement action seems to be requesting a total ban because N discussed something about a Jew on a page that was not off limits to him. It is absurd. If such rules were to be applied universally on WP, we would all be banned indefinitely. This case should be closed, and the indef topic ban on N should be lifted as part of the review of this case.KeptSouth (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No. This case has nothing to do with challenging the Arbcom decision, or some putative right, no one else has, uniquely for me, to enjoy a state of exception to an Arbcom deliberation. That is history as is much of my work. It is simply a technical question of whether I infringed the articles of that sanction. I don't believe I did. mI believe the Arbcom decision was within the rights of the arbitrators, though I do not agree with it. But as Socrates taught the Western world in the Crito, if you live within a democratic system, you must respect its laws, and not whinge. He could have escaped, but he preferred to dutifully take his poison. Minor lights do well to bear that in mind. I appreciate your position, of course, but this is no place to challenge a verdict, however incomprehensible, that affected many people, not only me.Nishidani (talk) 22:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I started to post this this morning but I thought surely I was misunderstanding something about this request, so I refrained until reading the comment from KeptSouth. As an outside observer, the logic of this request escapes me.

1. Nishidani "is prohibited from editing any article in the area of conflict (West Bank - Judea and Samaria), commenting on any talk page attached to such an article, or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles."

2. The ANI discussion was about the problem of multiple sockpuppets edit-warring at the Jewish Internet Defense Force article.

3. The particular discussion in which Nishidani participated was about whether to community-ban Einsteindonut.

Would someone please draw the line from "any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles ((West Bank - Judea and Samaria)" and a discussion about sockpuppets at Jewish Internet Defense Force? It seems like an awfully liberal interpretation to me. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

No Tom. I am permabanned for the I/P area, if you read the appropriate sections down the page at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria. I may touch nothing in the I/P area, and, as Malik reminds me, be very careful not to stray into grey zones.Nishidani (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Aw well, WTF then. There's a lot I don't understand about Misplaced Pages policy, including how a "permaban" is not permanent, apparently. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2010 (UTC) 03:25, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

So do you really really understand this time? This is at least twice now. Admins should have some balls and show you a block to at least gie the impression that there is some integrity left. But if you pinky swear on it they might let you walk again. Seriousley, just email other users like everyone else probably does instead of commenting yourself next time. This AE is annoying but you editing in the topic area is even worse since you are banned.Cptnono (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you can explain, Cptnono, since Broccoli seems unwilling or unable to respond. How do Nishidani's comments relate to Israel or Palestine? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I've already explained. The article Jewish Internet Defense Force was part of the discussion at ANI even though it delved into off article discussion as well. The article touches on the conflict even if it isn't tagged as such on the talk page. But since we are stretching so hard, it could also be argued that he shouldn't be discussing anywhere that could even be broadly construed as related. There is no doubt that the I-P conflict was part of that discussion. And he even admitted to it in his edit when he made the remark that basically said screw you to his sanction. Again: "I think it worth while risking an extension of my I/P permaban to say this." He knew making a comment was at the very best questionable if not completely unnecessary and enforceable. He is not welcome in the topic area and now we have yet another long AE since he snubbed the rules. If he would have stayed away this wouldn't have happened. So if he doesn't get it it needs to be made clear. If he does get it then he needs to show it by not coming back. If this was the first time it would not be a big deal. It is the second. Enough is enough. Does AE matter or not? If not, I will certainly have a good time telling people what I think.Cptnono (talk) 04:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

An admin once told me that AE frowns upon wikilawyering. Any defense to this request is splitting so many hairs that I don;t see how it can be called anything less. So yes or no admins? Cptnono (talk) 04:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, you can of course wikilawyer your way out of something and around a ban, but random editors with an agenda can also wikilawyer your contributions into a banned area, and clog up notice boards with complaints about it. Anyone with an open mind can see what's disruptive, time-wasting and of no constructive purpose. I'm also utterly baffled by Wgfinley's contribution to the "Result" section. N-HH talk/edits 07:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Cptnono, with reference to the JIDF article, you say: "The article touches on the conflict". Also: "It could also be argued that he shouldn't be discussing anywhere that could even be broadly construed as related." Nishidani's restriction means that he cannot write about the I-P conflict anywhere. However, so long as he doesn't write about the conflict, he is not banned from participating when the subject is broader (that is, merely touches) than the I-P conflict. If you doubt that, contact one of the arbitrators who imposed the restriction.     ←   ZScarpia   08:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Wgfinley Could you do me the courtesy of explaining what is 'damning' about that diff? Nishidani (talk) 10:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

You wrote the word "Israeli". Isn't that damning enough? RolandR (talk) 10:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

No I didn't, guv.:) Not at least in the 'first diff' Wgfinley defines as 'damning' evidence of my violating the I/P ban.Nishidani (talk) 11:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh but you did, in passing, when you explained what SHIT stood for. That is in the first diff cited against you, and clear evidence of criminal intent. I missed it first time round as well. N-HH talk/edits 11:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Wow! And there I was thinking I was a close reader. All I saw was a fine editor's name listed in or as 'SHIT'. No excuses then. I did violate the ban, the JIDF is vindicated, all the boys who worked on this can thank Broccolo for defending Misplaced Pages against a violent 'disruptive' agitator, and as I join, I suppose, Peter Cohen and, I presume, presently, perhaps the best I/P editor we have, Nableezy, in the afterwikilife, watch on as the insulted and injured, to use Dostoievsky's term, are welcomed with open arms, even if they have long records for sockpuppetry, disruption, POV editing, and whatever. Just goes to show. When you see someone who has publicly painted you out to be an antisemitic ranter full of anti-Israeli bias (no diff has ever been adduced to show the slightest evidence for either of these absurd charges), and smeared a Jew as not being Jewish, you have no right of redress on wikipedia, not even a cautious quip, nor any right to remonstrate on behalf of a good man's personal dignity, especially after the boss steps in to chide the latter for his exasperation. Okay, die Lage ist verzweifelt, aber nicht ernst, as they use to say in the coffee shops of Vienna in Karl Kraus 's day, let the Kahanist tribalbutients take up their barcaloungers and tune into wiki, to edit away on behalf of its high aims. If you wish to achieve 'closure', Finley then hang on a tic while I finish one or two edits I have been asked help out with. Shouldn't take more than a day or two, and they have nothing to do with the provocative defence of personal dignity that seems to be my problem with administration here.Nishidani (talk) 12:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The comment in question also includes a suggestion, at the very end, that the comment might risk an extension of the I-P ban. Nishidani does tend to be - dare I say it, and it's no bad thing - unduly cautious on this point. Or, one might say, prescient, given the phrasing used is (my emphasis) "risking an extension", and given that someone opened this complaint. I also remain confused by what "he brought it him himself with the Jewish references" means, or what that might have to do with I-P bans; or why a link to one of Nishidani's comments is referred to as "one of my own clear comment". Or in what way it constitutes a "result". But that's just nitpicking. As is the observation, for the sake of correctness, that in fact the ban covers the Arab-Israeli conflict, not just the Palestinian-Israeli area. ArbCom quietly changed that without telling or asking anyone, after the original decision had been handed down. Not that it makes a difference to the issue here. N-HH talk/edits 10:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

@WGFinley Assuming the clause of the sanction relevent to the 1st diff would be "or participating in any community discussion substantially concerned with such articles.", but there Nishidani is commenting on offsite "wikistalking" of another user, not article content or anything directly related to such; also the topic ban isn't from "Jewish topics". Then re your diff, Nish's sanction does not preclude him from discussing the banned topics on user talk pages. Misarxist (talk) 12:33, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I was blocked 3 times for so called ban violation. First time I was blocked for this revert in Rothschild family article that has nothing to do with I/P conflict, as my revert did not. Second time I was blocked for this comment made on AE that had nothing to do with any article at all. The third time I was blocked for this comment at sandstein's talk page. Once again the comment had nothing to do with the article. No, I do not think that wikipedia will be better off without Nishidani, and I enjoy his knowledge of literature, but he did violate his topic ban at least 3 times I know of, and a day or two of block will help him to make a better judgment next time. BTW User:N-HH also violated his topic ban by making comment at that request. I provided my own history for learning purposes only. I see here few new administrators. I believe it will make them good to see what could be considered a topic ban violation.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:14, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Nishidani

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The first diff appears to be damning to me. The Arb decision states he's not allowed to even comment on community pages about such topics. On its face it's on topic as he brought it himself with the Jewish references. When looking into this I found one of my own , clear comment on another user's talk page about Jewish Defense Force. --WGFinley (talk) 07:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

174.112.83.21

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning 174.112.83.21

User requesting enforcement

Dailycare (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

174.112.83.21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. diff removal of sourced content, without explanation
2. diff Removal of sourced content after discontinuing contributing on the talkpage
3. diff Again
4. diff Explicit refusal to co-operate and also refusal to provide sources he/she has invoked e.g. here and here.
5. diff On another talkpage, IP is again withholding what his/her "objections" are and a user is asking for them
6. diff Another one
7. diff IP perhaps responds to the two preceding ones

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. diff Warning by Wgfinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
2. diff Warning by Dailycare (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban/block (what's appropriate for an IP?)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This IP has been acting tendentiously in more than one article by opposing edits without articulating reasons for doing so (see diffs mentioned above) and removing sourced, even multiply sourced, material. For example in the Gilo article IP has continued (after discontinuing offering any input on Talk) removing a mention that Gilo is in East Jerusalem, despite the fact that in Talk, seven sources (BBC, New York Times, LA Times, Le Monde, The Guardian, the British Foreign Office and Jerusalem Post) had been presented saying this. IP also failed to provide articulated reasons why "East Jerusalem" shouldn't be in the article, except this but continued to remove the text from the article. IP has been cautioned against inappropriate behaviour e.g. here.

As an additional point, the editing history of this IP looks a bit interesting with very sporadic (and apparently minor) edits in 2009 followed by a surge of activity, in Israeli-Palestine articles, beginning August 13, 2010.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Discussion concerning 174.112.83.21

Statement by 174.112.83.21

Comments by others about the request concerning 174.112.83.21

Comments by Supreme Deliciousness

I believe that 174.112.83.21 is in fact user User:Breein1007 and that he has decided to edit as an IP because of all the warnings, blocks etc he got with his main account so he is now editing with an IP so he can behave in whatever way he wants, edit warring and incivility.

Comments such as this:

A user asks: "What makes Israel a developed country?" "I think the proper term to describe it is developing."

Breeins/174.112.83.21 response: "hahahahahahahahahaha says the guy from jordan. is this meant to be a joke?" and then ads it again:

They both have the same uncivil behavior: IP "wtf are you talking about" Breein: "What the hell are you talking about in your edit summary?"

See for example this where the IP makes a comment and Breein continues the discussion:

Breein has made posts in hebrew: IP also makes posts in hebrew:

I also have personal information that links Breein to this IP.

Breein was notified of Arbcom in 18 november 2009

I previously filed an enforcement for the things he had done, several of the admins wanted to act on it but for some reason it became stale and it was archived without being closed:

The fact that he is now continuing the same edit warring and uncivil behavior as an IP instead of his main account is something that should be stopped. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I checked User:174.112.83.21's edit history against 500 of User:Breein1007's past edits.

I didnt' find many matches. Both accounts worked on Jerusalem, MV Mariam, Rawabi, User talk:Ynhockey,Muhammad al-Durrah incident.

There are behaviorial similarities in edit summaries. Breein liked using the word "stop" in his edit summaries (e.g. "stop censoring things plz","therefore stop harassing me","please stop deleting sourced info"). 174.112.83.21 appears to do the same (e.g. "what part of stop reverting egypt did you not understand","kindly stop violating wikipedia policies immediately", "it is unfactual. stop putting lies".)

I think there is moderate circumstantial evidence suggesting these users could be the same, but I'm not convinced. NickCT (talk) 20:07, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I also have personal information that links Breein to this IP that I havent revealed here, that information together with the behavior is clear that its him. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think there seem to be two issues here: whether the IP is Breein and then the behaviour of the IP itself. This request concerns the behaviour issue, so unless SPI investigation pre-empts arb enforcement (don't know if this is the case) then the behaviour side should be actionable on this forum, regardless of whether Bree and IP are the same person. --Dailycare (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning 174.112.83.21

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I believe this is the wrong venue, this should go to WP:SPI. Unless someone objects I will close and ask it be filed there. --WGFinley (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

No because its not a clear case for a SPI because he has abandoned his main account. Considering all the things he did with that account, if he had continued his edit warring and uncivil behavior from it, he most likely would be banned from Arab-Israeli articles, so it look like he is trying to continue the same disruptive behaviour but without the history of the Breein account to avoid being sanctioned. This is a case for Enforcement. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd suggest filing on WP:SPI, but keeping this thread open for now. PhilKnight (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I filed a SPI here: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Breein1007. --Dailycare (talk) 21:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:JRHammond

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

JRHammond (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – JRHammond (talk) 06:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Ban from editing and participating on the Talk page of the Six Day War article imposed by User:Wgfinley. See my User page:

Administrator imposing the sanction

Wgfinley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by User:JRHammond

User:Wgfinley exercises extreme prejudice against me. He has previously violated WP:OUTING by posting personal information about me. He has previously blocked me on spurious pretexts, leading to my appeal and the block being lifted. And he has otherwise continually harassed me, including by threatening to ban me on the basis that I was contributing to the Talk page after his previous ban on me had expired and accusing me of edit warring when I couldn't even edit the article if I wanted to, as it is under protection! His pretexts in this case are equally spurious. Examining his stated reasons for the ban:

Multiple calls from multiple editors and admins have been made to you to collaborate. Instead, you have gone right back to tendentious editing on the article's talk page and, despite being previously blocked for making edits when you were banned, you came right back with over 100 edits in just a couple days, vowed to continue making protected page change requests even though an admin told you that you were abusing it or as you feel necessary .

(1) Ad hominem arguments are no basis for a ban. User:Wgfinley grossly mischaracterizes me here. He insinuates that I have been unwilling to collaborate, but offers nothing to support that contention, which I reject absolutely. I have gone through enormous efforts to try to discuss issues with other editors. In fact, I have practically begged other editors to participate and express their approval/disapproval of certain edits I've proposed in an effort to get others involved in an attempt to improve the article, e.g.: He characterizes my contributions to the talk page as "tendentious", but again offers no substantiation for that charge, which I reject absolutely. I stand by all my expressions of concern over certain content I have sought to improve with what I contend are perfectly reasonable recommended edits that are in total compliance with WP:NPOV and other relevant Misplaced Pages guidelines.

(2) User:Wgfinley would have people believe I have openly defied an administrator by pronouncing my intention to abuse the "editprotected" template. This charge is absolutely baseless. Here is the exchange to which he refers: User:Amatulic told me:

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the purpose of the editprotected template. Here is how it's supposed to work: 1. Propose an edit to the community here (not to an administrator via editprotected) 2. Present your rationale, and request input from others to modify your proposed text. 3. Other editors give you feedback, perhaps suggesting their own alternatives. 4. Eventually a consensus is reached. If no consensus is reached, stop here or go back to step 1. 5. Only then is it appropriate to place an editprotected tag on the page, with the consensus version proposed.

To which I responded:

In both cases where I've employed the editprotected template, I: 1. Proposed an edit to the community, 2. Presented my rationale, and requested input from others, 3. Received feedback or met no objections, 4. Reached agreement on my proposed fix or was met with no objections. So I fail to see what the problem is. I'm using the tag precisely as it was intended, as you yourself just outlined. And, as I said, I will continue to employ the tag as it was intended to be used.

Anyone may verify that I did indeed do exactly as the admin had outlined before employing the template. The whole premise of User:Wgfinley's pretext here is thus completely spurious. I had used the template in accordance with the guidelines given, and I said I would continue to employ the template in compliance with its intended purpose, contrary to what User:Wgfinley would have people believe with his deliberate mischaracterization.

(3) There is no Misplaced Pages guideline that I am aware of that limits the amount of participation an editor may make on the talk page. Are we seriously supposed to consider that, as User:Wgfinley suggests, that extensive contributions to the Talk page and laborious efforts to improve the article ("100 edits in just a couple days", which is hyperbole, but, yes, I've been highly active) constitute a reason for an indefinite ban? User:Wgfinley continues with his stated pretexts:

In other words, you will be disruptive if you consider it necessary you will venue shop by abusing the "editprotected" template and believe proper usage of it is "unreasonable". and that you expect the changes to be made.

(4) Again, I did not abuse the "editprotected" template, as outlined above. I used it precisely as the admin told me it should be used. I also absolutely did not in any way say or suggest that its "proper usage of it is 'unreasonable'". User:Wgfinley is being totally disingenuous. It was improper usage of the template I said was "unreasonable", which was very clear from my statement. The context: I pointed out a problem with the article and offered what I maintain to be an uncontroversial solution to resolve it. The proposed fix remained for a number of days and I explicitly stated my intent to employ the template to have the edit made, calling upon others to approve or state their objections, if any. After no objections were raised, I utilized the template. It was deactivated because of a misunderstanding by User:MSGJ. As this admin suggested I wait for an extended period of time, I, agreeing and complying with his request, did not reactivate the template. Later, User:Amatulic expressed the following:

JRHammond, I am gratified that you have agreed to follow the procedure I outlined, but you seem to have missed an important point that I can't stress strongly enough: Any editprotect requests will be denied without evidence of support. The absence of responses, positive or negative, does not constitute support.. You won't find an administrator on Misplaced Pages who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus.

And again:

Until others support this change, the change will not be made while the article is protected. I encourage other editors to weigh in, so we can establish a consensus and move on. Sorry if this sounds too procedural and bureaucratic, but that's the way it has to be while the article is protected. So I ask other editors: support or oppose?

To which I replied:

This is an unreasonable standard. I've requested editors to state their approval/objections already. As I already said, I'm willing to wait longer to give more opportunity, but if a reasonable amount of time passes (you suggested a week, which is fine with me), and nobody has objected, the fact that nobody may have expressed approval either is not a reasonable basis not to implement a fix, particularly one as completely uncontroversial as this. Give it time. If there are no objections, please make the edit. Thanks.

This statement constitutes no basis for an indefinite ban whatsoever. There is nothing on the page explaining the proper usage of the template that supports the view here that a proposed edit (an uncontroversial one at that) that has received no objections after a reasonable period of time cannot be implemented.. Moreover, User:Amatulic's suggestion that I "won't find an administrator on Misplaced Pages who will agree to a request to edit a contentious article without clear positive evidence of consensus" is a baseless opinion. First, the article may be contentious, but my proposed edit is not. Second, I did find an admin who very clearly agreed with my view on the proper use of the template. After the misunderstanding I noted above was cleared up with the admin who deactivated the template, that admin stated:

Okay I didn't realise there were two separate requests. I recommend putting each in a new section so that they don't get confused. I've invited other editors to comment on your proposal and if there is no response in a couple of days I can make the edit.

Thus, here is an admin, User:MSGJ who clearly shares my view on the proper and reasonable usage of the template, that directly contradicts User:Amatulic's position and demonstrates the fallacy of his argument, all of which also demonstrates incontrovertibly that this entire premise for User:Wgfinley's ban on this count is wholly spurious. Continuing:

Further, you are uncivil to other editors, you accuse them of making personal attacks where there are none, , which appears to be your response to anyone who disagrees with you.

(5) I have in no way been uncivil. Nor did I accuse anyone of making personal attacks. User:Wgfinley is again being disingenuous. What I stated on numerous occasions is that people were relying on ad hominem argumentation, which they were. User:Wgfinley's misunderstanding of what an ad hominem argument is does not constitute a reasonable basis for an indefinite ban, any more than my repeated observations that others, rather than addressing the facts and logic of my argument(s), instead have attempted to appeal to supposed prejudice on my part. It's a fact that others did so, and this is, by definition, ad hominem argumentation. I've repeatedly requested other editors refrain from employing such logical fallacies in their responses, and instead address the issues I've raised substantively. My doing so does not constitute any basis whatsoever for an indefinite ban.

In sum, User:Wgfinley has yet again offered entirely spurious pretexts for his ban, which is all the more unreasonable in that it is indefinite. I request that the ban be lifted, and I further request that action be taken to prevent User:Wgfinley from harassing me further with baseless accusations and banning/attempting to ban me on spurious pretexts consisting of dishonest, false, and otherwise misleading characterizations.

Reply to "Statement by User:Wgfinley:

Your request is unreasonable in that it would meant my tacit acceptance of the premise and the validity of your stated pretexts, which are wholly spurious. Hence my choice rather to appeal than to grant your baseless accusations any air of legitimacy.

Reply to "Outing Accusation":

I do not edit using my full name as you do (your full name appears and other identification appear on your user page). You posted personal information that identified me personally that I had never shared anywhere on Misplaced Pages, which is on its face a violation of WP:OUTING.

Reply to "Six Day War ban"

Full response above. In sum, to each of your stated pretexts: (1) I have made every effort to work with other editors, in full good faith, to improve the article. (2) Contrary to your disingenuous mischaracterization, I employed the "editprotected" template as per its instructions and only ever stated my intention to continue to employ it as it was intended to be used. (3) The fact that I've been very active on the Talk page is no basis for a ban, much less an indefinate one. (4) I never said the "proper usage of it is 'unreasonable'", as you falsely stated. (5) I have not been uncivil, nor have I accused "of making personal attacks", as you falsely state. I observed that others continually employed ad hominem arguments, appealing to supposed prejudice rather than substantively addressing my arguments -- the definition an ad hominem fallacy. Requesting that others not engage in such fallacious argumentation and instead address my arguments substantively, on the basis of the facts and logic I present, is no grounds for a ban whatsoever. These are the stated reasons for your ban. Every one is spurious. JRHammond (talk) 07:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Further remarks on charge of "tendentious editing"

"Tendentious editing" is defined as "Tendentious editing is editing which is partisan, biased or skewed taken as a whole. It does not conform to the neutral point of view, and fails to do so at a level more general than an isolated comment that was badly thought out. On Misplaced Pages, the term also carries the connotation of repetitive attempts to insert or delete content which is resisted by multiple other editors."

The fact that I have been accused of such is rather strange, since the article in question has been under protection for some time, and I couldn't make an edit to it if I wanted to. That fact in itself is enough to demonstrate the spuriousness of this stated pretext for my ban. Moreover, every edit I've proposed has been perfectly reasonable, and I've been more than willing to work with others to find an agreeable solution. As evidence, reviewing what I've been working on lately, of which there are precisely 3 items:

(1) I proposed an edit which was objected to, and User:BorisG made a counterproposal, which I accepted and then called on others to state their positions on. An administrator reviewed and implemented my proposal to remove false and misleading material from the article until a consensus could be achieved on a replacement (if any).

(2) I proposed a completely uncontroversial edit which to this very moment still has not received a single objection.

(3) I observed that an existing paragraph violates WP:NPOV by presenting information from only one side to the conflict, to the exclusion of the opposite viewpoint from the other parties to the conflict, as well as WP:WEIGHT by lending undue weight to one alleged "underlying issue" leading to the Suez Crisis to the exclusion of all issues actually leading to that conflict as represented by mainstream sources. I proposed to either (a) remove this paragraph or (b) expand the discussion to include a discussion of what those underlying issues were from mainstream sources, presenting both viewpoints where appropriate. To date, despite lengthy tangential discussion, nobody has substantively addressed my concerns here or explained why my suggested solution is in any way unreasonable.

I've further examined Misplaced Pages guidelines on "Disruptive Editing", which is principle among the things I've been charged with here. User:Wgfinley is prima facie abusing his authority. This page states that:

"A disruptive editor is an editor who: (1) Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from one or more other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. (2) Cannot satisfy Misplaced Pages:Verifiability; fails to cite sources, cites unencyclopedic sources, misrepresents reliable sources, or manufactures original research. (3) Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging"; adds unjustified tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable. (4) Does not engage in consensus building: repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits; repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits. (5) Rejects community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors.

(1) Not applicable. User:Wgfinley accuses me of "tendentious" editing, but the fact of the matter is the article is protected and I couldn't edit it even if I wanted to. (2) Not applicable. (3) Not applicable. (4) Not applicable. I've made enormous efforts to build consensus on improvements to the article (see above). I don't disregard other editors' questions or requests for explanations, or their explanations for their edits. (5) Not applicable. I always take community input into consideration (see above). I haven't made edits despite an opposing consensus (and couldn't even if I wanted to, as the topic is and has been protected).

Reply to BorisG

User:BorisG replied to assert his opinion that I am biased. (1) This opinion is not a reason to ban me, or a reason not to deny my request to repeal the ban. (2) I challenge BorisG to substantiate his opinion, which I wholeheartedly reject. JRHammond (talk) 13:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by User:Wgfinley

I had a whole section here but I'm removing it to save on clutter. I explained the ban on the user's talk page in detail so it can be found there. I think his statement is clear evidence of his tendentious, combative and disruptive nature. I stand by everything that was here previously I just no longer see a need for it and wish to keep this space tidy. --WGFinley (talk) 13:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Outing Accusation

This user edits using his real name (as I do), on its face he has outed himself. There was an article he posted on one of his websites that I thought could be seen as canvassing in the comments section with its references to Misplaced Pages as well as its numerous references to his own original research on the subject of the Misplaced Pages in question. I thought he should disclose this to the editors of the article as he was frequently being accused of original research. There's no outing here, it's off-wiki material leading to on-wiki behavior which has been covered in previous Arb cases.

Statement by User:BorisG

Over the years I made very minor contributions to Six-Day War and its talk page Talk:Six-Day War, and as far as I recall, User:JRHammond has always been active there. When I read the article Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing which an administrator cited yesterday, my first thought was that it was written about User:JRHammond. He is extremely knowldegeable and his edits are usually well sourced. But taken together, his many edits reveal a clear pattern of systematic bias (in my view). Of course User:JRHammond will never agree with this, but if users look at statements by both User:JRHammond and User:Wgfinley, and at the discussion page in question Talk:Six-Day War, they can judge for themselves. BTW it's the first time I ever comment on an AE case, so I apologise in advance if I have done something wrong, and will be happy to modify or remove my statement if instructed. - BorisG (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

There is no need for me to substantiate anything. I just expressed my opinion, which is based on experience. No one should take my word for it. Anyone interested should form their own opinion by looking at the talk page Talk:Six-Day War. But the pattern is very clear even from JRHammond's statement above. - BorisG (talk) 14:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by User:Amatulic

I came across the Six-Day War article during the course of administrative backlog patrolling, where I ran across an {{editprotected}} request. I spent a great deal of time reading the talk page history, found a consensus (not all in one place) for removal or replacement for two contentious sentences, and removed them. In the course of my investigation I discovered prior administrative actions regarding JRHammond including a previous ArbCom decision. At that point I decided to engage myself as a mediator, not taking sides in the debate, but establishing some ground rules for progress.

My first action was to stop what I perceived as misuse of the editprotected template. I saw instances of debate being generated by JRHammond placing that template, which is the reverse of what should happen: first debate, come to consensus, and then place an editprotected template to have the consensus change implemented. JRHammond insisted that he had been doing this, in spite of evidence on the same talk page of an editprotected template followed by a huge debate. He added that a requested change should be implemented for requests to which nobody objects or responds in any way, and stated repeatedly that he would continue using the template as he had been doing. I stated, repeatedly, that for a highly contentious article as this, lack of response doesn't imply consensus, and unless I see positive support for a change (not lack of any response) the change won't be implemented no matter how non-controversial JRHammond sees it. He stated that this standard is "unreasonable".

Then, apparently, JRHammond went admin shopping: I did find an admin who very clearly agreed with my view on the proper use of the template. After the misunderstanding I noted above was cleared up with the admin who deactivated the template, that admin stated: "Okay I didn't realise there were two separate requests. I recommend putting each in a new section so that they don't get confused. I've invited other editors to comment on your proposal and if there is no response in a couple of days I can make the edit." (See User talk:MSGJ).

I observe that MSGJ has not been engaged in the conflict and may have been unaware of my attempt to mediate. MSGJ is, of course, free to act any way he sees fit, and I would not object to his acceptance of an editprotected request to which I insist there be positive support. This, however, does not excuse the apparent canvassing of admins on JRHammond's part, and does not excuse JRHammond's insistence, after being told repeatedly otherwise how the editprotected tag should work, that he would continue to use it disruptively. To his credit, I will say that JRHammond has not used the editrequested template since I began to mediate.

While I felt we were making slow progress prior to JRHammond's ban, I do agree that his activity on the talk page qualifies as tendentious, with the result that other good-faith contributors to the article were being chased off, and that is unacceptable. I have mixed feelings about an indefinite ban, but now that it is in place, the ban should not be lifted without an agreement from JRHammond to specific behavioral changes. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Frederico1234

I think the block was premature as a new admin had just arrived to the talk page and had begun mediating. I also think that User:Wgfinley, while acting in good faith in order to enable progress on the article, should have left this task to another admin due to his own previous involvement (the erroneous block, the outing ("JRHammond" is not his full name, so it was indeed outing)). --Frederico1234 (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by mbz1

I have got an impression that User:JRHammond is using the words "ad hominem " way too often, and in response to practically every argument. User:Cptnono wrote to user:JRHammond] "Calling someone's remarks vain and ad hominem while referring to them as a hypocrite is just as bad as any slight against you. And you are kind of flooding the talk pge with text so it".

user:Wgfinley is not involved with User:JRHammond because he "interacted with an editor or article purely in an administrative role". I believe this appeal should be declined.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jiujitsuguy

I’ve had my share of interactions with JRHammond and the impression I got was one of a guy who could never admit that he’s wrong. I found his rambling wall-to-wall texts, filled with WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to be, dizzying. He is unable to accept any form of sanction. By way of example, I got a bit aggressive with my editing on the Six-Day war and WgFinley put me back in line with a 48-hr article ban. I accepted my sanction and moved along. JRHammond received the same sanction shortly thereafter and instead of complying with the ban, defied it, drawing a stiffer sanction of a one-week block and a two-week article ban. Then he appealed with his usual wall-to wall text, denying any wrong-doing and blaming everyone else but himself. I would support shortening the article ban in exchange for a promise of good behavior but doubt that this will be forthcoming from this editor.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by User:JRHammond

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The ban strikes me as inappropriate, given Wgfinley's previous involvement; it should have been left to uninvolved editors, and is as such suspect. I recommend lifting the ban immediately, and presenting it to other admins for consideration. --jpgordon 15:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I've read the article talk page from Talk:Six-Day War#Suez Crisis aftermath onwards, and I certainly agree that Wgfinley's conduct is a problem. From Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#2010 I gather the last ban was for 48 hours, so jumping up to indefinite is perhaps going too far. Although I respect what jpgordon is saying, I think I'd prefer to keep the ban in place, but shorten it to a week. PhilKnight (talk) 16:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

actually after his 48 hour topic ban he got topic banned again for 2 weeks as well as blocked for 7 days. the next step up from this, surely is not a step down to a week. seems like there is only so far you can go before you reach the point of indef. 99.254.145.130 (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. Perhaps a month? PhilKnight (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)