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Talk:Senkaku Islands: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 16:10, 9 September 2010 editNihonjoe (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Template editors124,624 edits →Requested move: support← Previous edit Revision as of 04:04, 10 September 2010 edit undoPhoenix7777 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users14,567 edits →Requested move: opposeNext edit →
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*'''Support''': In disputes such as these, such as the ] as pointed out above, or even ], the native English language name should be preferred to endorsing one claimant or the other. The Senkakuite argument that its name is more common in English is only true for very selective web searches, whereas Diaoyu wins in others, and still it is not possible to make a 1:1 comparison of the Chinese and Japanese names, for there is far less consistency in the romanization schemes and translations of the Chinese. ] (]) 16:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC) *'''Support''': In disputes such as these, such as the ] as pointed out above, or even ], the native English language name should be preferred to endorsing one claimant or the other. The Senkakuite argument that its name is more common in English is only true for very selective web searches, whereas Diaoyu wins in others, and still it is not possible to make a 1:1 comparison of the Chinese and Japanese names, for there is far less consistency in the romanization schemes and translations of the Chinese. ] (]) 16:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
*{{ec}}'''Support''' for the same reasons as with ]. This is the most neutral name. ···]<sup>]</sup> · <small>] · ] · ]!</small> 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC) *{{ec}}'''Support''' for the same reasons as with ]. This is the most neutral name. ···]<sup>]</sup> · <small>] · ] · ]!</small> 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''': ] clearly states "'''a widely accepted English name'''" should be used. And it is clear the widely accepted English name is "Senkaku Islands". The following are the results of the Google search described in the Naming convention:
**"Senkaku Islands": ,
**"Diaoyutai Islands": ,
**"Pinnacle Islands": ,
:Misplaced Pages is not the place to mediate an actual naming dispute by changing the title from the most common name to the least common name. It's like to change "'']''" to "'']''" by compromising the naming dispute between "'']''" and "'']''". ―― ] (]) 04:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
*<small >'''Note''': This debate has been notified to the ].</small> ―― ] (]) 04:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
*<small >'''Note''': This debate has been notified to the ].</small> ―― ] (]) 04:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:04, 10 September 2010

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Page move

I have revered the page move from Senkaku Islands to Diaoyutai Islands. While the mover gave the comment "no objections on the move". I see no recent discussion per WP:RM and previous one Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 3#Requested move resulted to stay at Senkaku Islands. --Kusunose 23:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I asked for comments at here and there's no comments for 15 days, plus the link you pointed took place more than 2 years ago. The move is based on WP:COMMONNAME, as shown by # of Google results for those 2 terms and also by various governments not involved in the dispute. OhanaUnited 01:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
You mean "Citation needed"? A wrong title, I should say. It's unnoticeable. The section title should have been "Page move request". Oda Mari (talk) 04:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
My first point was still valid, as I first did ask for more citation before deciding to to add a move request along. OhanaUnited 05:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe Senkaku Islands is better in terms of WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NCGN and WP:NCON. For # of Google hits, my search does not agree with your observation, for "Senkaku Islands" (26,400 pages) outnumbered "Diaoyutai Islands" (6,850 pages). In any case, Search engine test is hardly conclusive; see also WP:NCGN#Search engine issues for problems for foreign geographic names.

WP:Naming conflict suggest some other methods for determining the common name. For reference works, Columbia Encyclopedia and Encarta uses Senkaku Islands (on Britannca, search for Diaoyutai and Senkaku produses no hits). For international organisations, this is a page hosted on un.org about a report authored by UN. Secretary-General and China; it says "concerning Diaoyu island" in the summary but it uses "SENKAKU ISLANDS" in subjects for classification. I also remember the United Nations Cartographic Section used "Senkaku Islands" in List of Territories but both links are currently not available. --Kusunose 08:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I went to you the 3 UN links you pointed. The latter 2 links, as you mentioned, are dead and cannot verify your claims. The first you you provided, did you even bother to check the contents, not just the title/summary of the pdf, to ensure that it supports your argument? When I click on the link to English on that page, the pdf opens a UN document that supports my viewpoint. You just gave us reference that contradict your own views (facepalm). OhanaUnited 23:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
CIA Factbook uses Senkaku Shoto. Select Japan and see the map. And CNN site search result is 255 Senkaku Islands and 155 Diaoyu Islands Oda Mari (talk) 04:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The document itself is authored by China and it naturally supports the Chinese point of view. I'm aware of that. My point is that the UN's indexing/categorization system uses Senkaku Islands over Diaoyutai or Daiyou Islands, recognizes it as a common/standard name. --Kusunose 12:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Pinnacle Islands

I added a tag as even the title of the article is not npov.andycjp (talk) 12:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm suspicious over the claim that the UN endorses Senakaku as a common name. The UN doesn't seem to take a position in this contentious topic. Kusunose, could you provide more details on it?
While the Columbia Encyclopedia filed the article under "Senkaku", it clearly mentions different common names for those disputed islands and I don't see the Columbia takes any position in suggesting which one is more common. In international media, it seems to be more common to use both diaoyu and senkaku interchangeably. BBC simply tag the island with "Diaoyu/Senkaku" on the map.
While it is true that the search result, which shows 245,000 results on Diaoyu islands and 47,700 on senkaku islands, doesn't mean that diaoyu is more common than senkaku, it hardly supports senkaku is a common name too.
According to WP:Name, the encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. Misplaced Pages is not a place for nationalists to claim disputed islands and I don't see either senkaku or diaoyutai will achieve the required degree of neutrality. I suggest moving the article to Pinnacle Islands until there is a other better neutral choice.

--Winstonlighter (talk) 13:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to do moves like this, please make sure you are doing it correctly. You moved the article to Pinnacle islands (lowercase "i") when it should have been Pinnacle Islands (capital "I"). You also didn't check the box to move all the talk archives as well, so they became inaccessible after the move. These issues have now been fixed as I've move the article to the correct title and moved the talk archives. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks joe for the help. hope the current title will permanently settle this issue. --Winstonlighter (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure it will be solved at least as much as the Liancourt Rocks issue. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Please move the article by WP:Requested moves for a controversial move. It is clear the most common name is "Senkaku Islands". The following are the result of Google search:

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)


Phoenix7777, your move from Pinnacle islands to Senkaku islands seems to be based on a careful choice of search queries. Google results could often be misleading in many ways and hardly provides a way to drive "definitive conclusions".

By searching the most recent news:

  • "senkaku islands": 21 results
  • "Diaoyu islands": 194 results

Similar results can be found in German Google news:

  • Senkaku : 199
  • diaoyu: 373

Also on book', which yields different results by using another keywords, compared to your finely-polished keyword "diaoyutai islands":

  • "diaoyu islands": 3440 results
  • "diaoyutai" : 4,700 results.

WP:Name states clearly that the encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality and the Japanese title has been disputed before the move.

Phoenix7777, your revert seems to be based on a misinterpretation of google results. Correct me if i'm wrong. Anyway, Misplaced Pages is not a place for nationalists to claim sovereignty and it's hardly productive to stir up a great debate between the use of "senkaku" or "diaoyu" as we can see in Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan. It's especially true in an article which is poorly and patchily edited, lack of citations. More efforts are needed for the article itself, rather than the title. --Winstonlighter (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC).

I've reverted the edit from 203.218.190.89 which seems to spark an unnecessary warring on name ordering. In the article, Japanese name sometimes goes first, some of the goes second and I'm inclined to keep it as a de facto status. Those nationalistic-driven warring won't end up in a dead loop. --Winstonlighter (talk) 04:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Senkaku Islands be renamed and moved to Pinnacle Islands.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Senkaku Islands → Pinnacle Islands — A recent discussion about the controversial use of Japanese name over a disputed land seems to suggest that neither Senkaku and Diaoyu is predominate common name. Search results show that both names are common, in which the Japanese one yields more results in Google Book search, while the Chinese name yields more in Google News and General Google search. The title was hence moved to Pinnacle Islands following the example of Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan, which neglects who administrates and controls the place, but pick up a neutral generally known name. In this case, although the name Pinnacle Islands does not seem to be overwhelmingly popular than the rest of two, it achieves the highest degree of neutrality required by wp:name. An admin (nihonjoe) and I have moved the page to Pinnacle Islands for neutrality, but the move is disputed by a user. --Winstonlighter (talk) 04:50, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment Before posting the formal move request, Please review the following points.
    • Please review the past discussion regarding the article name and discuss how the situation has changed or what evidence newly found since the last discussion. We are not persons of leisure to waste a time every time a new comer came to request a move.
    • Please review "Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names)" first. Its " Widely accepted name" describes how to resolve the disputed name. It states the use of "Google Scholar" and "Google Books" hits not "Google news" hits. Also " Use English" describes the use of "a widely accepted English name" not a German language.
    • Please indicate the Policy or Guideline that states the title of the disputed place should not be either of the name called by the disputed countries but the least common English name found elsewhere.

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi phoenix, this is the first time to start a formal move request for this article. In fact, Nihonjoe and I has moved the article to Pinnacle Islands but you reverted it and insisted to use a Japanese name based on an obviously flawed google result with a carefully polished keyword ("Diaoyutai islands"). As per your previous request, we started the formal move procedure, in which you now described as a process for "persons of leisure to waste a time every time a new comer came to request a move." I lean towards keeping good faiths on you but please spend your time (and our time) more efficiently. --Winstonlighter (talk) 15:48, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

--Winstonlighter (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC).

(edit conflict)Actually, I only fixed an incorrectly titled move. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Support: Even if there are some instances of one name being used more than others, the current title "Senkaku" still is very POV, as it lean fully towards Japan's pov. Until the dispute is solved, a neutral name would be preferred here, as it have been done numerous times elsewhere and thank god this has one. :) --LLTimes (talk) 15:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Support: In disputes such as these, such as the Liancourt Rocks as pointed out above, or even Mount Everest, the native English language name should be preferred to endorsing one claimant or the other. The Senkakuite argument that its name is more common in English is only true for very selective web searches, whereas Diaoyu wins in others, and still it is not possible to make a 1:1 comparison of the Chinese and Japanese names, for there is far less consistency in the romanization schemes and translations of the Chinese. Quigley (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)Support for the same reasons as with Liancourt Rocks. This is the most neutral name. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not the place to mediate an actual naming dispute by changing the title from the most common name to the least common name. It's like to change "Persian Gulf" to "Arabo-Persian Gulf" by compromising the naming dispute between "Persian Gulf" and "Arabian Gulf". ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
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