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1939 events

Was this the organization that rose against Poland during the Polish September Campaign, or were there others Ukrainian anti-Polish organizations at that time? Perhaps some pro-communist?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

There was a "Communist Party of Western Ukraine" - a NKVD backed structure that praised Soviets entering Halychyna. But it was hardly "Ukrainian" - only formally. Not sure about "September Campaign", never heard of :( Ukrained 18:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Operation Ohio

This piece of text was added anonymously and later removed. Is there any truth in this? Petri Krohn 02:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Operation Ohio was an assassination program which the U.S. Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC), U.S. Naval Intelligence, and U.S. Air Force Intelligence carried out through the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) during and after World War II. Control of OUN later passed to the CIA.

The source for the quote is namebase.org The text refers to an article published in the Win Magazine (War Resisters League) in September 1975 on Operation Ohio.

Another reference: Petri Krohn 07:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty well documented that the CIA and MI6/SIS attempted to support/make use of nationalist resistance groups in the Soviet Union after WW2. Here's one hit from google books: Most of these operations were complete failures. Apparently most of the Western files on this stuff are still sealed, probably because a lot of it would prove to be very embarassing, and most of the info is from KGB archives since the USSR dissolved. Some good books to check are:

• Peter Grose, Operation Rollback: America’s Secret War Behind the Iron Curtain (New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2000)
• Tom Bower, The Red Web: MI6 and the KGB Master Coup (London: Aurum Press, 1989)

cheers, heqs 01:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

SUM promotion

The following poorly-written promo text has been added:

СУМ (Spilka Ukraïns'koï Molodi), or simply UYA (Ukrainian Youth Association), is the more predominantly nationalistic of the Ukrainian Youth Groups. It was established as a division of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) as a counter the Soviet pacification in Ukrainian after the rise of the bolshevik socialists. Its objective was to teach the Ukrainian youth of their true heritage, and to privately denounce the Russian communist tenets that were being forced upon them. It operated secretly under the authority of its founder, Mykola Pavlushkov and his associate, Serhij Yefremov. The Association was organized in groups of five (p'iatok) so as to keep from drawing attention to the undergound group. Should any member be caught, under this system, he would only be able to divulge the identities of the four other members in his group of five. Its motto, God and Ukraine (Boh e Ukraina) is a testament to the beliefs of the members of this organization, as well as its noble dedication to a greater good beyond themselves.

Today, the UYA operates both in Ukraine as well as what is known as the diaspora, which refers to countries outside of the motherland that have accepted Ukrainian immigrants. The UYA exists in Argentina, Canada, the United States, Germany, Australia, The United Kingdom, and other countries.

As one of the SUM members in Ukraine, I can assure anybody that this text is both underdeveloped and irrelevant here. If needed, feel free to make a separate NPOV article on SUM. Or rather SUMs since this organization in Ukraine is split in at least three parts. Given that, providing an external link to only one of the SUMs would be a real POV-pushing. So I just deleted it.

Instead, nobody cared :( to mention SUM-SVU trial or several other organizations more closely linked to OUN. Ukrained 09:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I just moved it as it had been added to Scouting in Ukraine, and doesn't really apply there. No offense meant. Chris 01:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

No offense were supposed either :). I was talking merely of a possible perception, not of your intentions anyway. Thanks for that contribution anyway. I'll make a separate article someday and get all needed ext links for it. Best wishes, Ukrained 10:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Totally disputable

• • The article does not say any word about ethnic cleansing of the Poles and the Jews by the OUN and UPA. It does not say any word about collaboration of OUN with the Nazi Germany. --Russianname 05:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article discusses these things. I recommend you reread it.Faustian 21:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Post-war guerrilla warfare

Excerpt from the book Blowback - America's recruitment of Nazis, and its disastrous effect on our domestic and foreign policy by Christopher Simpson (Collier / Macmillan, 1988) in chapter Guerrillas for World War III on page 148:

Misplaced Pages does not seem to have any information on this insurgency. -- Petri Krohn 01:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Terrorist organization?

I am surprised that the article doesn't address the argument that OUN was a terrorist organization. Granted, it is on "Words to avoid" list, however that Manual of Style guideline only stresses the need for verification. OUN has been called a terrorist organization by reliable scholars, ex. Timothy Snyder (), Jerzy Jan Lerski (), Tadeusz Piotrowski (), Stanley G. Payne (),. Notably even Orest Subtelny in his famous Ukraine:A History uses this adjective in relation to OUN (). That said, I know it may be a controversial issue, and so I would like to ask for input here. Can we add the adjective 'terrorist' to lead and/or main body?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 00:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The article on the Provisional Irish Republican Army states that the British have classified it as a terrorist organization, not that it is a terrorist organization. Perhaps something can be written about many historians considering the OUN to have been a terrorist organization. However, that being said, the organization survived in the diasopra and was definitely no longer a terrorist organization then.Faustian (talk) 03:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Good points. My knowledge of it is constrainted to the Polish front; an organization that was involved with violent resistance, including assassinations and later massacres should not be described simply as "a Ukrainian political movement" - but this needs to be treated with tact so the article remains neutral and reliable. Would you like to adjust the lead and article to reflect that issue?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 21:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

One should first read the article on Terrorism to get some background as to when it is appropriate to use the term. Bandurist (talk) 04:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on its lessons here?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 06:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, OUN in the post WWII period cannot be described as a terrorist organization because it was not involved in any such behaviour. During WWII its leadership was very careful to make sure participants in UPA etc wore uniforms are specifically targeted military objects. They constantly spoke and wrote about military education, whether it be from Polish, German or Soviet sources. There is a difference between a combatant fighting aagainst another soldier and a person committing a crime against the civilian population. The matter becomes somewhat obscure when OUN in the 1930's began a program of assassinations of Polish and Soviet functionaries. Here the definition becomes somewhat obscure and we begin to split hairs.

On the one side you have actions that could be classified as terrorism. On the other hand these acts were premeditated, and calculated against specific targets and had specific parameters. Also they were on Ukrainian ethnic territory, not in a foreign country.

The fact that it was on ones own soil has a specific meaning because it is then classified as defence and not an attack.

In any case, it is a matter for further debate in order to refine the definition.

Obviously, for an occupier, it is all classified as terrorism, but there is a fine line when it is your own territory you are defending.

On the other hand you have state sponsored assassinations which were committed by the Soviets against Petlura, Konovaletz, Bandera, Rebet and others where the assassin was known, where they confessed, or defected etc. Is that not terrorism - state sponsored terrorism doing a criminal act on foreign soil?

The one great difference between the Poles and Russians was that the Polish government did not (and could not) condone state sponsored murder. It was never an option for them because of the high moral stand they took which was probably rooted in their Roman Catholic Faith. It would have been so much easier to pop off Shukhevych and all the others, but they did not do this. In fact they did not officially execute any Ukrainian Nationalists in that period. The Russians however, did not have those qualms. Murder was known as "mokriye diela". It wasn't discussed because of its seriousness, however it did take place and was common.Bandurist (talk) 21:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Certainly the pre-WWII, WWII and post-WWII OUN was quite different. The territories it operated in had mixed Polish-Ukrainian population; some can be called 'ethnic Ukrainian', but others not - for example, Bronisław Pieracki was assassinated in Warsaw, which I am sure you will agree is not a Ukrainian territory. So while OUN power base was certainly in ethnic Ukrainian territory, its actions were not limited to it. We should expand on non-assassinations - what else did the OUN do? And I wonder what was the official Polish government description of OUN. With regards to WWII, the infamous massacres of Poles in Volhynia come to mind. Did the post-WWII OUN express any apologies for that? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 00:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

More questions on lead

I compared the Polish and this version of the article and I have several comments:

1. Polish version does not call it a terrorist organization; it however calls it a 'political and military nationalistic organization'. Would this be a more accurate description than the current 'political organization'? Category:Nationalist parties seems applicable here.
2. Polish version mentions in the lead it was 'anti-Polish, anti-Soviet and anti-communist'. The current version only mentions it was 'against the Polish authorities'. Should something be corrected here?
3. Polish version has a logo - should we import it?
4. Polish version has a section on organizational structure - seems badly needed here

-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 18:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The OUN existed in the diaspora for over 50 years as a purely political, not military organization (after rejecting its fascist pre-war ideology and adopting a democratic one, while still being fiercely anti-communist) and currently exists as such in Ukraine. The logo is not of the OUN but of its succesor in Ukraine, the Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists, which is one of the parties making up Yushchenko's Our Ukraine bloc.Faustian (talk) 18:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

OUN and the Soviets

Two questions: 1) did the OUN operate against the Soviets? This aspect seems to be mostly missing from the article. 2) Were the anti-Polish activities of OUN supported (secretly) by the Soviets? I read some Polish sources which argued that Soviet intelligence manipulated OUN into such actions, hoping that driving a wedge between Ukrainians and Poles will bring the Ukrainians closer to the Soviets.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 00:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

persecutions

"In 1936 and 1937, the Poles used claims of OUN involvement to justify mass trials and executions of Ukrainians, particularly youths."

numbers, sources?

This part is rather controversial, thus it would have been nice if you elaborated on it.

There were no mass executions, this will be removed.Faustian (talk) 03:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

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REdirects

What's the point of link to oun-m in the article, if it redirects to oun again? Szopen (talk) 14:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Was this organisation ever referred to as "UNO"?

Currently Ukrainian Nationalist Organisation is a redirect to here, linked from UNO (disambiguation). Some websites support that this may be the case. A few suggest there may have been a parallel organisation in Canada known as UNO.

Currently UNO is not mentioned in the article, in which case the link from UNO (disambiguation) is not sustainable and will need to be removed.

I am aware that articles such as this can be sensitive so I am cautious to go ahead and edit them considering I am not familiar with their content. Can someone confirm whether this organisation is or was ever called UNO and whether it should be disambiguated as such? If it should be, can you also update the article so that such a link is supported?

Thank you, --MegaSloth (talk) 15:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The Canadian organization which you refer to is called "Ukrainska Natsional'ne Obiednennia", (UNO in Ukrainian) which translates as Ukrainian National Federation (UNF in English). It was established after a visit by Yevhen Konovalets in the 1930's with former Sich Riflemen taking on prominent positions within the organization. Alignment after WWII was primarilly with the Melnyk faction, but political activism in the organization in the organization has been very tepid, especially with the recent induction of many ethnic Ukrainians from Ukraine. the former Yugoslavia and Poland. It is more a stronger supporter of sports and to a lesser degree arts. Bandurist (talk) 18:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that has clarified what the Canadian organisation is. Does this mean that OUN is never referred to as UNO? --MegaSloth (talk) 21:57, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Controversial?=

Only participation Theodor Oberländer, Roman Shukhevych and the Nachtigall Battalion in the Lviv civilian massacre are controverisal. Facts are from yadwashem site and from Motyka book. There is nothing controversial in it. OUN supporters killed many Jews, this are facts.--Paweł5586 (talk) 14:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily in Lviv at the beginning of the war. See here}: "The Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) has declassified documents, proving that OUN [the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists is not connected with the anti-Jewish action in Lviv in 1941.

According to an UNIAN correspondent, SBU archive representative, candidate of historical sciences Oleksander Ishchuk showed the declassified documents, which provide an objective basis to state that OUN is not connected with violent actions against the civil population of Lviv in July 1941.

In particular, according to O.Ishchuk, the declassified documents of SBU indicate that on July 4-7 of 1941, representatives of Gestapo, who arrived in Lviv, turned to Ukrainian circles with demand to carry out a three-day massacre of Jews. “The OUN leadership, having got to know about that, informed its members that it was a German provocation in order to compromise Ukrainians with massacres”, the document reads.

“The SBU documents confirm that OUN members were trying to avoid taking part in actions against the Jewish population in Lviv, there were no official instructions on this issue”, O.Ishchuk stressed.

At the same time, the historian pointed out that none of the Soviet criminal cases, brought against OUN-UPA members, and kept in the SBU archive, has ever mentioned murdering civil population.

The scientist stressed that thanks to declassifying the documents, now historians have grounds to state that the OUN leadership refused to take part in Jewish massacres in Lviv in 1941."Faustian (talk) 15:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

See John-Paul Himka comment regarding SBU "document" . While SBU is not scholar institution - see instead

• І.К. Патриляк. Військова діяльність ОУН(Б) у 1940—1942 роках. — Університет імені Шевченко \Ін-т історії України НАН України Київ, 2004 (No ISBN)

p.232 OUN(b) militia participation in the extermination ofr Jews. At Lwiw OUN(b) militia joined the SS 2 July 1941

• ОУН в 1941 році: документи: В 2-х ч Ін-т історії України НАН України К. 2006 ISBN 966-02-2535-0

p 261 (OUN(B) Крайовий провід ОУН(б) на матірних українських землях) call to exterminate Russians Poles ,Jews and - date 1 July 1941

• Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, p.63
• Dr. Franziska Bruder Radicalization of the Ukrainian Nationalist Policy in the context of the Holocaust

There is nothing controversial in it. OUN-B supporters killed many Jews, this are facts - per Paweł5586Jo0doe (talk) 18:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The fact that different scholars disagree mean that there is some sort of controversy. It is pure OR to state that one scholar is correct and another is not. We just report what the state of affairs is. Obviously OUN police participated in ghetto clearing and the final solution in Volyn, but with respect to the actions in Lviv there is disagreement.Faustian (talk) 00:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but SBU is not reliable source. Are they historians? No. They are government security agency. They could prepare documents. Ukrainian pages arent reliable too. See photos on yadwashem pages. --Paweł5586 (talk) 07:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

If you read the article, it stated SBU archive representative, candidate of historical sciences Oleksander Ishchuk.... And "At the same time, the historian pointed out that none of the Soviet criminal cases, brought against OUN-UPA members, and kept in the SBU archive, has ever mentioned murdering civil population." We don't just pick information that is convenient for our POV, we report what is out there. And there is disagreement amongst historians about what happened in Lviv.Faustian (talk) 13:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

So there is only one historian mentioned. I have changed article a little, it should be ok now, but Birczanin reverted. My version is ok?--Paweł5586 (talk) 13:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

It should be in the same section as antisemitism. I'll make some adjustments. Keep in mind that whent here is disagreement among hisotrians we do not write, based on one of the competing POVs, "The OUN did this..." but instead write "Some historians claim the OUN did this...while others disagree." Also, the SBU historian exonerates the OUN in general in the Lviv massacres, not just Nachtigall. Himka disagrees with the SBU historian, stating that although Nachtigall did not massacre Jews evidence suggests that other OUN people did, although even he does not explicitly declare that the OUN did. Faustian (talk) 14:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

May be your not familiar with Ukrainian scientific practice – so a note – “public hearing” – it’s not a scientific conference. On “public hearing” all participants are “public” – regardless of their rank on it. While again SBU is nor scholar nor scientific institution per Ukrainian Legislation Scholar source deemed as such in Ukraine if published after endorsement by the Scholar Council (Наукова Рада) - an that is clearly indicate at the book. Like for instance - І.К. Патриляк. Військова діяльність ОУН(Б) у 1940—1942 роках. — Університет імені Шевченко \Ін-т історії України НАН України Київ, 2004 endorsed by Scholar Council Of the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences and Hitorical Section of the Shevchenko University.

In which scholar source O.Ishchuk gives his opposing to Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences and Hitorical Section of the Shevchenko University view. Please specify name and page. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 16:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Pavel you should just note to Faustian - No place for original research. Please behave. It should be exist a WP:RS which clearly state "Controversial" othervice it would be OR - while comparsion the claims of the unknown media person with publications comes from National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine prepared by dozens of PH.D and published in history and Dr. Franziska Bruder (she got a plenty works on topics) - it's really not match WP:UNDUE nor WP:RS - there no matter to dicuss. Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 09:20, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Your link to the national academy of sciences article doesn't work.Faustian (talk) 14:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay the book by the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences is here. On page 63 it states that the Polish professors killed were specifically chosen from a group that met with Stalin and wanted to form a Polish Soviet government in oppostion tot he Polish government in exile in London. So of the 160 Polish prfessors in Lviv, only those 38 who collaborated with Stalin were killed. Speaking of Jews, you were as usual quoting selectively from the source. On page 63 the authors conclude that the OUN did not have an active organized punishment-repressive apparatus and that although individual groups of Ukrainian police participated in anti-Jewish actions (the OUN leadership itself openly admitted to this), they only played a supportive role within German organs. Individual members of the OUN took part in anti-Jewish actions in Lviv, and OUN leaflets encouraged anti-Jewish actions among the general population. But the book on page 63 did NOT attribute large-scale pogroms in Lviv to OUN units or militias. Therefore the sentence in the article "Some historians, such as Yad Vashem, have claimed that militas under the OUN's command were involved in the massacre of 6,000 Jews in Lviv soon after that city's fall to German forces,. although this claim is controversial and disputed by other historians (see The Lviv pogroms controversy (1941))" is accurate. Please be honest when you claim things based on sources. And please stop forcing other editors to waste their time disproving your false claims. Faustian (talk) 15:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

To summarize: you argued against the phrase in the article that "Some historians, such as Yad Vashem, have claimed that militas under the OUN's command were involved in the massacre of 6,000 Jews in Lviv soon after that city's fall to German forces,. although this claim is controversial and disputed by other historians (see The Lviv pogroms controversy (1941))." You did so by claiming that the document by the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences contradicts what is written, adding that that document "comes from National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine prepared by dozens of PH.D and published in history." Fortunately I am able to read Ukrainian and the information from that document contradicts your claim. This is exactly the sort of behavior that got you blocked for a year in the first place, and I suspect permantly banned from Russian wikipedia also.Faustian (talk) 15:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - individual groups of Ukrainian police participated in anti-Jewish actions (the OUN leadership itself openly admitted to this), they only played a supportive role within German organs. Individual members of the OUN took part in anti-Jewish actions in Lviv, and OUN leaflets encouraged anti-Jewish actions among the general population . While no such exact text regarding Polish professors - translation is incorrect. Thanks. Could you provide a link to WP:RS which indicate this claim is controversial? Three sources by Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences sources clearly indicates OUN-B militia participated in anti-Jewish actions. Please do not wate your time on mistranslation - google did translation much more precisely.Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

And here you go cherrypicking my own quotes. Here is the translation: "the OUN did not have an active organized punishment-repressive apparatus' and that although individual groups of Ukrainian police participated in anti-Jewish actions (the OUN leadership itself openly admitted to this), they only played a supportive role within German organs. Individual members of the OUN took part in anti-Jewish actions in Lviv, and OUN leaflets encouraged anti-Jewish actions among the general population. But the book on page 63 did NOT attribute large-scale pogroms in Lviv to OUN units or militias. Point out where OUN militias were mentioned? They weren't. So the source does not state what you claim it does. Now please don't force other editors to waste their time tracking down your dishonest use of sources.23:36, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I have one more source, but in Polish - Jarosław Hrycak (Ukrainian historian). He also write about massacres by OUN police and more - source. Could you understand it Faustian? I think it can be used as source.--Paweł5586 (talk) 12:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That is certainly a good source. Thank you! We ought to focus specifically on OUN's participation, not only on that of the police forces. Many of the police, but not all, were OUN members but if the source doesn't explictly mention them then refering to actions by police in general in this article would be inapropriate. Although it provides a "mixed" view of OUN participation in the murder of Jews. From the article: "W uchwałach programowych podjętych na II (Krakowskim) Wielkim Zgromadzeniu OUN-B (kwiecień 1941) potępiono pogromy antyżydowskie, ponieważ odciągały one uwagę Ukraińców od prawdziwego wroga – reżimu bolszewickiego.

Ale równocześnie stwierdzono, że Żydzi są jego najbardziej oddanym sprzymierzeńcem i awangardą moskiewskiego imperializmu na Ukrainie." Translated: "In the resolutions adopted on the second program (Krakowski) Grand Assembly of the OUN-B (April 1941) condemned anti-Jewish pogroms, since they distracted attention from the real enemy of the Ukrainians - the Bolshevik regime. But at the same time, it was found that the Jews were the most devoted ally of imperialism and Moscow's avant-garde in Ukraine." That pretty much captures the essence of the OUN's attitude towards Jews and mirrors what John-Paul Himka concluded. Interestingly, our friend JoeDoe just repeated the last part of that in his one-sided presentation of the OUN.

Further in that article "Jak w praktyce OUN-B rozstrzygała kwestię swoich programowych rozbieżności w stosunku do Żydów i pogromów antyżydowskich? Źródła i historiografia przynoszą sprzeczne świadectwa. Polscy historycy twierdzą, że banderowcy współpracowali z Einsatzgruppen, w szczególności dostarczając listy proskrypcyjne i uczestnicząc w mordowaniu Żydów. Zachodni historycy (zarówno ukraińscy, jak i żydowscy) zwracają uwagę na doniesienia źródeł niemieckich, że banderowcy na centralnej i wschodniej Ukrainie wydawali Żydom fałszywe paszporty i tym samym ratowali im życie. Organizatorzy aktu 30 czerwca 1941 roku zrzucają odpowiedzialność za pogromy antyżydowskie w Galicji na „szumowiny” korzystające z tymczasowego chaosu. Osobiście ostrzegali oni członków OUN-B, by nie dali się sprowokować do żadnych akcji antyżydowskich i antypolskich. Według ich świadectw, członek OUN-B Iwan Rawłyk, który przejął kierownictwo lokalnej policji, twardą ręką zwalczał pogromy we Lwowie. Wraz z rodziną został stracony przez gestapo, między innymi za odmowę podjęcia współpracy na odcinku antypolskim i antyżydowskim." Translated: "How, in practice, did the OUN-B program to adjudicate the issue of discrepancies in their attitudes toward Jews and anti-Jewish pogroms? Sources and Historiography bring conflicting testimony. Polish historians claim that Bandera cooperated with the Einsatzgruppen, in particular by providing a proskrypcyjne (?) and participating in the murder of Jews. Western historians (both Ukrainian and Jewish) draw attention to the German source reported that the Bandera on the central and eastern Ukraine issued false passports to Jews and thus saved their lives. Organizers Act 30, 1941 shifted the responsibility for anti-Jewish pogroms in Galicia onto the "scum" in the temporary chaos. Personally, they warned members of the OUN-B, so as not to let themselves be provoked into taking part in any anti-Jewish and anti-Polish acts. According to their documents, a member of the OUN-B, Ivan Rawłyk, who took over management of the local police, fought against the Lviv pogroms. He and his family were executed by the Gestapo, inter alia, for refusing to cooperate on anti-Polish and anti-Jewish acts."

Basically this source seems to confirm that the OUN's attitude towards the Jews was ambivalent.14:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Better situation explained at І.К. Патриляк. Військова діяльність ОУН(Б) у 1940—1942 роках. — Університет імені Шевченко \Ін-т історії України НАН України Київ, 2004 yes OUN-B really don't want to spend time on pogroms they plan to exterminate all Jews (see www.history.org.ua/LiberUA/Book/Upa/2.pdf] Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, p.63 but luckyly does not have ' organized punishment-repressive apparatus' - thus last getto was in Dubno even in late 1943 (so - also exterminated by "Ukrainian" militia - see Weisberg, Moshe, "Life and Death of Dubno Ghetto 1946). Please use Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences works. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 17:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't consider this poorly cited Motyka book you keep putting in all of your edits a legit source, but instead a smokescreen since you don't even cite page numbers and it's not in english. The 'yadwashem site' is hardly credible.--Львівське (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

OUN-B logo instead OUN

Guess why adopted in 1941 logo given instead of official OUN logo? Article need to be split - legal OUN and OUN-B appeared in April 1941. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 18:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Hrycak

How about this:

However, the remaining local Jews, who for many Ukrainians in Galicia were considered to be the Bolshevik helpers and associates of the NKVD. Germany forced them to clean up dead bodies. The whole operation was accompanied by violence and beatings, in which participated also by local Ukrainians. Says the Jewish alone in Lviv at the beginning of July 1941 during a three-day pogrom killed between two and six thousand Jews. In late July and August 1941, the Ukrainian police, the so-called "days Petlura, even killed about five thousand Jews in Lvov, mostly representatives of the intelligentsia. In the early days of German occupation, and state the same sources, the anti-Jewish pogroms took place in fifty eight cities and towns of western Ukraine, killing them twenty-four thousand Jews.

So participation OUN police in killing Jews is clear now?--Paweł5586 (talk) 07:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, this info is important and belongs somewhere on wikipedia, but not in the OUN article. Is more about police than OUN. The OUN may not have controlled all the police in July 1941 (they eventually did later, in Volyn); if these crimes were thr work of the OUN I'm sure Hrycak would have said so.Faustian (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Per .К. Патриляк. Військова діяльність ОУН(Б) у 1940—1942 роках. — Університет імені Шевченко \Ін-т історії України НАН України Київ, 2004 OUN-B controlled own militia (no ther militia was - only OUN-B) well into mid September 1941.

Even given a report by OUN-B from 22 July 1941 (see also ОУН в 1941 році: документи: В 2-х ч Ін-т історії України НАН України К. 2006 ISBN 966-02-2535-0 ) - about "milita" activity "Звіт другову Стецькові від ОУН на МУЗ"- report noted "discruptions of Hungarians" which released Jews and Poles and even protect them from OUN-B militiaJo0doe (talk) 17:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we know you can quote selectively to support your POV.Faustian (talk) 17:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Plase prove your insertion by providing "full citation" (if such exist). Source also used text from ОУН в 1941 році: документи: В 2-х ч Ін-т історії України НАН України К. 2006 ISBN 966-02-2535-0) - see at page p.37 - Our militia is now arresting together with the Germans numerous Jews. Before their liquidation the Jews are defending themselves with all kinds of methods, mainly with money. I was unable to find any documents or citation at ОУН в 1941 році: документи: В 2-х ч Ін-т історії України НАН України К. 2006 ISBN 966-02-2535-0 which prove any existance of OUN-B intend to not to exterminate Jews,Poles Russians. Can you? Please specify a page number. Thank youJo0doe (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You do realize you are asking to prove a negative. "I was unable to find any documents or citation at ОУН в 1941 році: документи: В 2-х ч Ін-т історії України НАН України К. 2006 ISBN 966-02-2535-0 which prove any existance of OUN-B intend to not to exterminate Jews,Poles Russians. Can you?"Faustian (talk) 22:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

So can you provide a page number(s) and citation from mentioned above sources which can confirm OUN-B 1941 efforts to save/protects/treat equially Jews, Poles, and Russians. Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 08:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Faustian look into yadwashem pages: Members of Einsatzgruppe C, German soldiers, and Ukrainian nationalists and rabble began to murder Jews. Ukrainian nationalist means OUN. Next source: Encouraged by German forces to begin violent actions against the Jewish population in Lvov, Ukrainian nationalists massacred about 4,000 Jews in early July 1941. Third source: The pogroms were organized by Ukrainian nationalist circles with German encouragement.

So not only militia took part in massacres. It seems to me, that in this case the situation is clear. We have many sources, even pictures.--Paweł5586 (talk) 20:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Yadwashem is one source, right? It's already in the article. Himka considers Yadvashem to be mistaken.Faustian (talk) 22:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You forgot to add at least 3 (three) sources Ін-т історії України НАН України . Could you indicate a Himka consideration that the Dr. Franziska Bruder The International Institute for Holocaust Research No. 12 -June 2008 p.37 ISSN 1565-8643 has be to be mistaken - page number and name of source please. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 08:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The Hrycak link doesn't work. Nor could I find any other copies of this paper on the Web. What exactly did Hrycak write and in what context? Did he say that OUN condemned ALL Jewish pogroms in history? Only one pogrom? Several? What did this OUN condemnation actually say and where and when was it issued?

24.5.186.1 (talk) 03:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC) Ostap Bender

Link doesn't work anynore, it's been taken down. but the relevant stuff is posted on this talk page under the heading controversial. Hrrycak wrote, ""W uchwałach programowych podjętych na II (Krakowskim) Wielkim Zgromadzeniu OUN-B (kwiecień 1941) potępiono pogromy antyżydowskie, ponieważ odciągały one uwagę Ukraińców od prawdziwego wroga – reżimu bolszewickiego." I'm restoring it.Faustian (talk) 04:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

New section suggestion

National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine publications present a dozens of scholar texts which describe the sources which Bandera's OUN used for funding. Indeed intresting to note that the so called "Бойовий фонд ОУН" (Military fund of OUN) at large extend from 1940 composed from the Jews - victim of the Holocaust belonging - gold, dimonds, jewellery and intresting to note - a stamps collections. "Military fund" was not captured by Soviets and was "evacuated" through Vienna in 1944. A section "OUN funding" would be intact. Suggestions?Jo0doe (talk) 12:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Excellent idea. For verification purposes please use only sources available on-line or published by western institutions - we can't check offline writings available only in Kiev.Faustian (talk) 13:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Can you specify me restiction at WP:V - regarding National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine publications available at Parliament library? Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 14:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• Guess still unable to find Toynbee, T.R.V. (1954). Survey of International Affairs: Hitler's Europe 1939-1945. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. (page # missing). From you past edits Jo0doe (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

If you choose to insert info from sources that can only be verified by going to the library of the Ukrainian parliament then expect your edits to be removed.Faustian (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

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