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Edit Summary

In my last Edit Summary, I noticed the word "Added" came out as "Assed" It's an unintentional mistake. I guess the time has come to use glasses.:-) Sorry about that.Fusion is the future (talk) 16:57, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

references

Far too many of these are to one source: www.atillaengin.com. It would be nice if the links went to the actual magazine and newspaper articles described. pablo 18:54, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Far too many of these are to one source because Danish Papers and Turkish papers alike did not yet digitalize their archives beyond year 2000. Most of these activities took place in the eighties and only Atilla Engin himself has these articles stem from the respective papers and Jazz magazines. I already explained this some weeks ago while editing. It seems you didn't notice.

Having said that, I would like to know why did you delete lots of things and for that matter not only the integrity of the article is compromised, the lay-out is messed up too, which I edited for some time now?

• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students

What was wrong with this section:

The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a monthly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører."

• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

What happened to the link to the source?

• What was wrong with these codes in the beginning section of the article?

Both, Danish and Turkish newspapers (Jazz magazines) called him such. I provided the exact translation in the article:

He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue.

• Atilla as Teacher, inspirator and motivator

Why did you remove this below section?

Once influential music magazine MM from Denmark coded TYRKIS "A phenomenon in Danish music scene" in its 1987 review of the album.

If you are here to communicate, help and guide, then, do so.

Now please come up with good-sound explanation to each of my above questions. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

You would have to explain what 'coded' means in these instances before I can be of much help to you with those sections.
Ideally this article would be a biography of Engin, properly referenced, mentioning the bands he has played with, what he's done, and a discography, writen in neutral language.
Interesting that the Danish Misplaced Pages has no article. pablo 20:46, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• In these instances "coding" him should be considered as calling him, naming, labeling, attributing to, ticketing, tagging, you name it. (Not the one "Coded as saying")
• I'll not be surprised if someone shows up with an article in Danish Misplaced Pages since all references, timeline and the pictures are out there.

I'll have to believe and I do, that you are here to make it not to brake it.

Now, before we go to the next phase, please explain. Thanks. Fusion is the future (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well timeline is one of the things that I think could be improved. The article needs fewer headings and a more logical structure. The sections

• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students
• European Music Year 1985 - Atilla Engin Group Represents Denmark Abroad
• Composer Of The Year
• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

don't really merit a separate section each. The information in them would be best as prose, in a logical, chronological format. The lists of artists who performed at the same festivals as Engin would also be better integrated into text.

A couple of magazines referred to him as a cultural ambassador. This fact did not need mentioning four times in the article.

"He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue." Look at what those link to. Do they need to be wikilinked?

I have asked for help here, you may find that some regulars at the jazz project can help you.

What do you mean by "before we go to the next phase"?  pablo 21:49, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

1- Before I prepared this article I made my research. It's the same way everybody else does with many subtitles, in terms of artist biographies.

• As a teacher, aspirer, (this one is better,) motivator
• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students
• European Music Year 1985 - Atilla Engin Group Represents Denmark Abroad
• Composer Of The Year
• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

These subtitles give perspective to the works of Engin through out the years as performing Jazz artist, leader, teacher and organizer, not to mention he is a composer, arranger and conductor too. He certainly made a difference in people's lives. So, I strongly believe that these subtitles should be considered.

2- You said: "A couple of magazines referred to him as a cultural ambassador. This fact did not need mentioning four times in the article." Yes, you are right. One time should be enough for Engin (in the very beginning of the article,) but, Danish papers also called Engin and his Jazz conservatory students as Cultural ambassadors somewhere else. (Cross-Cultural, Educational Project.)

3- "He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue." Look at what those link to. Do they need to be wikilinked?

Of course not. If you think it's not necessary, I'll go along with your advice. On the other hand, all others (fusion, drummer, percussionist, composer, arranger and so on) are Wikilinked. That's why I did it.

4- You changed subtitle to TYRKIS intead of Atilla as teacher, inspirator (aspirer,) motivator This is not about TYRKIS. It is about the skills of Engin and how he succeeded to prepare these youngsters for a much higher goal. They even won first prize in Dortmund Germany. So, it's about Engin.

5- Maybe it was a good idea to ask help from Wikiproject Jazz but Engin is a Jazz/Fusion artist. More, a World Music artist.

6- The "next phase" is that I do not know your ties with the artists, musicians and so on.

Since the integrity of the article is in accordance with the integrity of the artist and his accomplishments, in terms of his work he's done for his students as he dedicated his life to them so that they could reach their dreams, and also in terms of his cross-cultural projects which helped create awareness about the differences people have and about them learning to live together in harmony.

Please take a look at the article again as a whole and try to make connection with what I just said.

Try for instance, to see the importance of the big success of an ordinary, evening-class music students reaching the famed Jazzhus Montmartre. It's a dream Pablo. They did it. And then their picture and the list of roosters next to it who all happen to be famous Jazz recording (Misplaced Pages) artists. Who wouldn't be proud of them? Who wouldn't attribute their smiling picture to the true fairytale which were written by them?

World is changing, so is The Misplaced Pages.

I wouldn't use the same tone or style if I was writing an article about the city of Bristol in England or about a famed attorney.

We do not want a boring Misplaced Pages. Although Misplaced Pages is the best encyclopedia with the utmost level of quality and accurate information, and thanks to all of us, still, we want an interesting-exciting Misplaced Pages too, so that, it's fun reading/seeing, going through while learning.

What do you think?

Now, with all respect and since my work messed up totally, please do restore it to the last version of my edit, then, let's start from the scratch going through piece by piece.

Would you please?

Sincerely best. Fusion is the future (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

What you're saying is basically "Atilla Engin is fantastic, he has had a long career in music and made a lot of kids very happy therefore this article should be preserved exactly as I wrote it". Unfortunately that's not how Misplaced Pages works. I am not going to change it back, you can if you wish but it was a mess then (much of it reading as though it had been translated by machine) and is less of a mess now. Hopefully other editors will get involved and it will eventually improve.
By the way, if you do want to write about the city of Bristol, an attorney, or anything else then you certainly should use a similar style in each case. pablo 00:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• You wrote this:

What you're saying is basically "Atilla Engin is fantastic, he has had a long career in music and made a lot of kids very happy therefore this article should be preserved exactly as I wrote it".

• I did not say that. You're putting things in my mouth.

What I said last is very clear:

"Now, with all respect and since my work messed up totally, please do restore it to the last version of my edit, then, let's start from the scratch going through piece by piece. Would you please?"

This means "Inclusion" "Willing To Work Together"

Dear Pablo, I feel really sad and frustrated seeing my good-faith effort to build a consensus with you about this article I created is being washed away. Not only that, you're now trying to insult me with sarcastic and patronizing tones. Are you sure this was your intention? Because insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all.

The article is a mess now after your countless edits/deletes in a matter of no time. You did not try to work with me. You just came here and started deleting things, changing everything your way. And you don't want to assume responsibility. Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article. Misplaced Pages:Civility, Misplaced Pages:Etiquette Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith Sincerely best. Fusion is the future (talk) 03:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well if you've quite finished accusing me of various things, I'll repeat. I am not going to revert this article to the state it was in before. If you wish to do so go ahead. It still needs work. If you want to improve it you could start by updating all the links to the scanned magazines with the name of the magazine, date, author, publisher etc. Here is a sample of a reference from another article:

<ref>{{cite web
  | last = Jisi
  | first = Chris
  | title = Jaco’s 1962 Fender Jazz Bass “Bass of Doom” Found!
  | work = Bass Player Online
  | publisher = New Bay Media, LLC
  | date = March 2008
  | url = http://www.bassplayer.com/article/jacos-1962-fender/mar-08/34267
  | accessdate = 2009-01-17}}</ref>

which displays the following information:

Jisi, Chris (March 2008). "Jaco’s 1962 Fender Jazz Bass “Bass of Doom” Found!". Bass Player Online (New Bay Media, LLC). Retrieved 2009-01-17.

Here's an example from the Atilla Engin article:

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Sindal
  | first = Helle
  | title = Dansk rock til Tyrkiet: Sjoelden kulturexsport igang
  | work =
  | page = 5
  | publisher =
  | date = 30 December 1988
  | url = http://www.atillaengin.com/copenhagenjazzconservatory.htm
  | accessdate = 2009-01-17}}</ref>

which would display as

1. Sindal, Helle (30 December 1988). "Dansk rock til Tyrkiet: Sjoelden kulturexsport igang". p. 5. Retrieved 2009-01-17. 

it's obviously from a newspaper, but which one?

Obviously the urls will be to your own scanned copies if the originals are not available online. But this is a lot more helpful to the reader than a lot of bare links to atillaengin.com. pablo 10:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Please, let's roll back and see how things started and did escalate to a point where the article was not in the hands of "assume good-faith co-editor" anymore.

You started as saying: "Far too many of these are to one source: www.atillaengin.com. It would be nice if the links went to the actual magazine and newspaper articles described. pablo 3:54 pm, Yesterday (UTC−3)"

1- This was your first post about the article here in discussion board and it clearly demonstrated that you didn't go through the history section of the article itself. If you did, you would never make this comment. Because, it was already explained why the originals were not (yet) available on line. You missed that.

2- You came here and started to delete/change things disregarding the importance and the necessity of working with the creator of the article. This was, this is against Misplaced Pages's guide-lines.

The article is a mess now after your countless edits/deletes in a matter of no time. You did not try to work with me. You just came here and started deleting things, changing everything your way. Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article. Misplaced Pages:Civility, Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith

Why did you do that? Why didn't you work with me, instead of deleting/changing, changing deleting?

Clearly, you did not show respect. You just did it as it comforted (pleased) you.

3- Now, I am ready to forget all of these and I will kindly ask you to work with me. Do you agree?

4- I can see you made significant changes in terms of references, (retrieved thing,) for the better. Next time I'll do exactly as you suggested.

5- You said: "it's obviously from a newspaper, but which one?"

If you please go to the source you'll see that this head-line is from POLITIKEN, the biggest and influential paper in Denmark. Article# 3 (Marked in thick read on the upper left.)

6- With all respect, I will like to change the subtitle TYRKIS (which you decided it should be) back to ENGIN as a teacher, motivator or something close to it. And I did explain to you earlier (in this thread) why. What do you think?

7- Another thing is that, in the beginning section of the biography right after MATAO, Atilla Engin Group and its references disappeared. How this happened?

8- Also, I suggest we put these words back though (maybe?) without wikilinks, in the very beginning of the article: Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue. And restore the link. Article# 1, 2, 3, 4

9- And I further suggest we restore the small section (in TYRKIS) with reference as it goes: Once influential music magazine MM from Denmark called TYRKIS "A phenomenon in Danish music scene" in its 1987 review of the album. Article#:4 (Marked in green, on the right top)

I believe it is very important. What do you think? Thanks Fusion is the future (talk) 13:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Please stop with the accusations. What is "assume good-faith co-editor" Actually no, please don't tell me. There is no "importance or necessity in working with the creator of the article" You have contributed to this article. Your contributions do not belong to you. I have edited the article. That's it.

1. No I didn't miss that. But the information about what the links are supposed to point to was missing. See 5.
2. The article was a mess. I have improved it. Perhaps others will further improve it. I hope so.
3. I can barely understand your English at times, which does not bode well for any collaboration here on this Misplaced Pages.
4. OK
5. Good, perhaps you can now add the name of the newspaper and change the reference in the article. Then there are all the other ones to do. Enjoy.
6. ENGIN (why the capitals? Why?) as a teacher, motivator etc is not appropriate language. It is making judgements about Engin. Tell us what he did, not what you think about it.
7. Dunno.
8. See 6
9. Go ahead then.

If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here. All text that you did not write yourself, except brief excerpts, must be available under terms consistent with Misplaced Pages's Terms of Use before you submit  pablo 14:09, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll go ahead and make these small changes (add-ons too) since you agreed. #5, #9, #7 (will put Atilla Engin Group and its references back where it was earlier.)

8 - Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue. I didn't say (create) these things about Engin, Turkish Jazz magazine and "MM" once influential music magazine from Denmark said. So, what do you think? It makes sense to me.

6- What about this instead of TYRKIS: Engin's teaching years Would this be appropriate then?

3- You say "I can barely understand your English at times." It's normal. I am an old, very old baby boomer. What do you expect? Even, it makes two of us, if, at times, you do not understand my English.

• I never said that I own the article. All I asked, all along, this: Work with me. This is perfectly in accordance with WP:Own rules

You say: There is no "importance or necessity in working with the creator of the article" And what about this:

• From "WP:Own"

Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article.

Honestly, what do you make of it? Thanks. Fusion is the future (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

8) I do not think that anyone has been described as an "excellent pedagogue" in English for several hundred years.

6) Possibly. But look at the German version of this article, which is far more sensibly presented.

3) It's irrelevant when you were born. (I have only a vague idea of what a 'baby boomer' is, anyway). You are writing in a language that is not your own. This about competence rather than age. Much of your original text seemed to have been translated twice, badly - perhaps from Danish to Turkish and then to English. This never works well.

If I fix problems with an article, that's it. I don't care who wrote it. If it's bad, it gets edited.

Are you actually going to sort out the references? The reader (and that is who the article is for) needs to know what all those magazines and newspapers that you have scanned are.  pablo 18:28, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• As I was caught up in this heated, back 'n' forth conversation, I made an inadvertent mistake by saying that I created this article which I did actually not. Still...
• Who said "Age contributes to competence?" Please do not mix things up.
• If you continue this way, your conduct's soon to be called as "Racial Profiling" which is a crime and punishable by law. You did already cross the line multiple times and it seems you're repeatedly testing my threshold limit. Please do not...

Please do not get personal with me. Not to mention, each and every time we commit an offense, it'll effect our credibility, and our conduct (how we behave,) our motive-intentions-agenda will be closely scrutinized by others, at least here in Misplaced Pages. Don't you think so?

Trying to make Misplaced Pages the best (most valuable) encyclopedia is one thing, insulting, attacking, disrespecting others is another.

• Scanning magazines, newspapers? What are you insinuating?
• This new (HTML?) system, in terms of writing links or so, is not known by me. I saw your examples and how you did it. I hope I will be able to learn soon.

Would you please help me more about this coding? Even I use my glasses, I'm having hard time to sort these scripts out.

• I value your input and suggestions Pablo which I can see, they made this article more down-to-earth already.

Please keep working with me. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Let me try and be perfectly clear about this.

• I do not know, (and do not want to know, and do not care) what your race, nationality, or age is. "Racial profiling" is a ridiculous accusation.
• I never said 'age contributes to competence'. But competence' is required here.
• Most of those links are to scanned newspapers and magazines whuich are stored at atillaengin.com. We need to know details about the original publications; see section below↓  pablo

Source

What is the source of the image headed "Danskere spiller op til dans"? It appears to be from a magazine.  pablo 08:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• It was a Danish magazine called "UDKIG" which doesn't exist anymore. I think I can get the front and back cover of it if needed. I guess it was from 1989 and after Jazz conservatory students toured Turkey with Engin. Fusion is the future (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Good - then the reference which points to this picture can include the name of the magazine, the publisher, the author, the date of publication. All this is potentially useful information for the reader. And the reader is who the encyclopaedia is for.  pablo 13:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• The problem is, I do not know this new system, although I can learn.

Can I insert this info you talk about with the way I did before? Or could you help me with that? Fusion is the future (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Use this code

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = 
  | first = 
  | title = 
  | work =
  | page = 
  | publisher =
  | date = 
  | url = 
  | accessdate = }}</ref>

and fill the fields in with the relevant information, like the examples above. If you are viewing the page in edit mode don't include the tags <pre> and </pre>, these are just to make the code display.  pablo 14:08, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I got the details

• Name of the magazine: UDKIG
• Date #2-1989 (This must be published quarterly)
• Publisher: Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
• Author: I guess you mean the person who wrote the article? His name is not on the article itself but I now got the info that it was written by a journalist, Morten Langkilde Fusion is the future (talk) 14:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Right, so that would be

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Langkilde
  | first = Morten
  | title = Danskere spiller op til Dans
  | work =UDKIG
  | page = 
  | publisher =Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
  | date = 1989
  | issue = 2
  | url = 
  | accessdate = }}</ref>

 pablo 14:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Very nice.:-) I got it. Thanks a lot. Now I guess I can find out the rest. Thanks a lot.

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Langkilde
  | first = Morten
  | title = Danskere spiller op til dans
  | work = UDKIG
  | page = 10-11
  | publisher = Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
  | date = 1989
  | issue = 2
  | url = atillaengin.com
  | accessdate = 20 September 2010}}</ref>

Is this correct? If so, I'll be very happy. Fusion is the future (talk) 14:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

the url should be to the page with he actual file on it, and should include the full url - including the http://www. at the beginning.  pablo 14:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The url doesn't exist (never existed,) and also the magazine is not there anymore. I do not know when they stopped publishing but it's not there. Only Engin has this scanned article and the magazine itself. So, could I point to Engin's site where the article sits? Another thing is tha I lost track of it. The section in which I attributed to this link, you removed. Can we put it back? Or could you rewrite (reformulate) it please?

Atilla's Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students

• The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a quarterly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører." Article # 2, 3

Fusion is the future (talk) 15:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Langkilde
  | first = Morten
  | title = Danskere spiller op til dans
  | work = UDKIG
  | page = 10-11
  | publisher = Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
  | date = 1989
  | issue = 2
  | url = http://www.atillaengin.com/atillaengin_crosscultural_ambassador.htm
  | accessdate = 20 September 2010}}</ref>

Is this correct? Fusion is the future (talk) 17:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I have corrected it. Don't forget to leave out the <pre> and </pre>.

It'll look like this (no. 4)

1. Articles From Danish Papers
2. Danish And Turkish Press Alike, Call Atilla A Cultural Ambassador See the articles #1, #2, #3 and #4
3. Music Magazine MM From Denmark Coded TYRKIS: A Phenomenon See the article #4 (marked in blue.)
4. Langkilde, Morten (1989). "Danskere spiller op til dans". UDKIG. No. 2. Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke. p. 10-11. Retrieved 20 September 2010.

 pablo 18:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Dear Pablo, I really lost my momentum. Here I see four references. The last one is "Danskere Spiller Op Til Dans" (for TYRKIS?) Where shall I use them? What is "Ton?" Are these for this section which is not there anymore?

• The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a quarterly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører." Article # 2, 3

I guess I am really getting old. Would you please help me? At this very moment I see one link, (Danskere spiller op til dans,) but in your post there are four of them:

^ Articles From Danish Papers

^ Danish And Turkish Press Alike, Call Atilla A Cultural Ambassador See the articles #1, #2, #3 and #4

^ Music Magazine MM From Denmark Coded TYRKIS: A Phenomenon See the article #4 (marked in blue.)

^ Langkilde, Morten (1989). "Danskere spiller op til dans". UDKIG (Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke) (2): p. 10-11. http://www.atillaengin.com/atillaengin_crosscultural_ambassador.htm. Retrieved 20 September 2010.

I can't find it out. Please guide me. Sorry about that. Fusion is the future (talk) 23:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to know, if there is anything else do you want to add and/or change.

If not, I would like to remove "Multiple Issues" sign, since you didn't come up with more things. I did learn a lot because of your involvement. I am pretty sure it will show in my future contributions. So, do you mind if I remove the tag? Or anyone could remove the tag? By the way, I contacted Politiken, the Danish paper and asked about Morten Langkilde, the author of the article with photos which was deleted today. They said they will forward my e-mail to him.

• I asked you about this part but I didn't get any respond from you. Can we put it back? Or could you rewrite (reformulate) it please?

The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a quarterly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører." Article # 2, 3

I can not use these useful references if this section is not there.

• In the very beginning: Engin was called as Cultural ambassador, a magician on drums and (Fremragende - Danish, you could look up for an equivalent word in English) pedagogue. Please check the article# 1 and 4 Ambassador, magician on drums, ? pedagougue

Could we find a way to insert them back? Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 20:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I have no time to look at this today. As far as "magician, excellent pedagogue" etc. goes, please don't put that sentence back in. It is terrible English, but even if the translation were better it would give undue weight to the opinion of one reviewer. The article should first concentrate on the facts; what he did and when he did it. Any critical reception can me mentioned but is of secondary importance.
I would really like someone else to look at this article as I seem to be having difficulty explaining things to you. I'll ask again at the Jazz project or maybe get another opinion.  pablo 08:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• You said: As far as "magician, excellent pedagogue" etc. goes, please don't put that sentence back in. It is terrible English, but even if the translation were better it would give undue weight to the opinion of one reviewer.
• No it wouldn't. I say this: From Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view---Neutrality disputes and handling

Attributing and specifying biased statements

A biased statement violates this policy when it is presented as a fact or the truth. It does not necessarily violate this policy when it is presented as an *** identifiable point of view. It is therefore important to verify it and make every effort possible to add an appropriate citation.***

This is exactly what I did. I verified each of these attributions and added appropriate citations. References are from Jazz magazines and respected Danish newspapers; not to mention, all these journalists are too, music journalists. They know what they're doing. Therefore, with all respect, I want to insert the attributions with proper sources:

• Danish: "Troldman på sit slagtøj" -- English: Magician/wizard on his drums Troldman in English
• Danish: "Fremragende pædagog" -- English: Outstandingly, superbly, excellent Fremragende in English
• Turkish: "Bir Kültür Elçisi" -- English: A Culture Ambassador (exact translation)

These are not biased statements. They all are verified by credible sources. If you think that it was terrible English as you stated, why don't you go ahead and reformulate it?

• You deleted my wordings without even discussing with me. Again, for example, about the attributions in the very beginning of the article which you deleted without discussing with me first.

Please read carefully:

• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ

Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete

The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.

*** There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased ***

• These attributions you deleted out-right, without showing respect to a fellow editor nor discussing his work with him first. You just did it. This conduct of yours was/is strictly against Misplaced Pages guidelines, rules and regulations.

Now, please translate these attributions (I provided an English dictionary link to you on the top) and reformulate so that we can use them.

Here is the link to these articles from a Jazz magazine from Istanbul and music magazine MM (review) from Denmark. Article # 1 and 4 (marked in red on the left)

The problem is not me having hard time to understand things, it is rather you who did/does improper things which are against Misplaced Pages guidelines.

One more time, I kindly ask you to remove the tag. You put that vey tag on September 17, 8:30 in the morning. Today is the sixth day. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not taking instructions from you, and I cannot see any evidence that you are qualified to explain Misplaced Pages guidelines. This article is a horrible mess. There are too many headings for sections with little substantive content. There are far too many images (most of which are of questionable provenance; Atilla Engin is not the copyright holder for all these images). The whole piece is badly written and the the issues which the tag describes have not been fixed. I suggest you get on with fixing it rather than ramble on on this talk page, copying and pasting lumps of guidelines here.  pablo 15:44, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion

This template must be substituted.

When I first visited this page here it was a complete nightmare, containing such gems as

Atilla Engin (b.1946 Kayseri Turkey) is a Turkish-American fusion jazz percussionist, drummer, composer, arranger, conductor, performer and educator. He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagog.

Once influential music magazine MM from Denmark coded TYRKIS "A phenomenon in Danish music scene" in its 1987 review of the album.

The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a monthly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors."

Attempts to clean it up and provide proper referencing rather than a series of links to scans on the artist's own website have met with strong opposition (see talk page and recent history). I would really welcome some more eyes on this page.  pablo 21:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

These conversations between you and I, in this talk page, now has to be reviewed by an administrator whether your conduct, your motive, your impartiality and all these things you did and said are proper and in accordance with the Misplaced Pages guidelines. I did my best. Now I need an administrator to look in to these conversations and sort them out what they are, and what they aren't.

From now on, until an administrator steps in to review our conversations, I will strongly suggest that you do not make any edits including this talk page. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Well that clearly demonstrates why a third opinion is needed.  pablo 22:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• I was asked to provide a third opinion. Two things: First, I hope you will forgive me (and anyone else) for not reading the entire torrent of words on this page. Second: When you ask for a third opinion, generally you should refrain from making further points in that section: it's for third opinions. Now, with those out of the way: References to magazines, newspapers, etc. should refer to those publications, using page numbers, issue numbers and the like. If these are available on-line, then you can put the address in the "url=" parameter. However, I would caution against linking to the musician's website, if he is not the copyright owner of the scanned material - see WP:LINKVIO for more info. This being the English-language Misplaced Pages, English-language sources are preferable to non-English sources; see WP:NONENG. Having said all that, a cursory review suggests that all of these are reliable sources so I don't think we have a problem with verifiability. As for the tone and style of the article, I would recommend reading Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography#Structure and/or Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (biographies) for some tips before putting much more effort into this article. Finally, Fusion is the future's access to the musician's personal archives suggests some sort of personal, business, or other close relationship with the subject. I would highly recommend reviewing Misplaced Pages's guidelines about conflicts of interest. My $0.02, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:10, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
• Another 3rd opinion. I'm going to try to set aside the "water under the bridge". I'll also try to refrain from overall comment about its quality, other than to say that I agree with the Multiple Issues summary at the top - and to recommend that anyone who thinks otherwise might compare it with the pages on other musicians (for example try Elvin Jones, a not unknown drummer). Instead, some practical points:

• Paragraphs do not need subheadings. They can stand perfectly well on their own.
• Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia not a scrapbook. This article has far too many images. If someone really wants to see these, they can go to the artist's own website. I suggest choosing one image, just one, and deleting all the others.
• The readability is still hampered by English grammatical problems - word order, lack of definite article, etc. While there is a sense of ownership by one editor, this acts as a disincentive to others to resolve such issues.

Finally, I too am concerned at the degree to which the main editor has access to what looks like the subject's own archives and hence that there may be a WP:COI issue. (My personal rule of thumb is to avoid editing any biography where the subject would say hello to me by name in the street.) In situations in the past where an editor had COI issues but was nonetheless notable and was trying to construct an article without superlatives, without point-of-view, I've recommended transparency, that they put a clear statement on the biography Talk page identifying themselves and the nature of their interest. I'd welcome that clarity here. AllyD (talk) 12:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks both. I am going to ignore this article for a few days and see what it looks like when I come back.  pablo 16:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• I'll be back sometime tomorrow, during the evening; late though. Until then, keep cool. Fusion is the future (talk) 01:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

"I need your help and guidance. Would you please look into these conversations between me and user Pablo X, in terms of conduct, motive, impartiality and the things has been said and done are proper and whether they are in accordance with the Misplaced Pages guidelines."

• Gyrofrog,

This was what I wrote when I asked your help to review the conversations between me and Pablo X and do something about it, and also asked you to review the article's overall standing. I didn't say Pablo X does this, does that. it was a general approach. Did you notice that? I chose you because you wrote some articles about musicians, you played saxophone, most importantly, you were an administrator here, in the Misplaced Pages community. Therefore and without a doubt, I thought you would be an honest, trusted and highly regarded person who could any given time, in any circumstances make a sound, fair, impartial and well balanced judgment attached to his conscience.

Pablo X sure had/has strong ties to Texas. So did you. This, you two, are being from same state did not discourage me at all. After all, you were an administrator whom its conduct, common sense and rationale should be reliable. You did come indeed to sort things out, at least I thought so. What did you do instead, you ignored to review this talk page conversations to see what was really going on. You said:

• "First, I hope you will forgive me (and anyone else) for not reading the entire torrent of words on this page."

Here you lost your impartiality. You disrespected me. You were not intereseted to know what I was saying to Pablo X and what I was not. Suddenly you made me remember that you were indeed from Texas too.

What did you do next as an administrator was even worst. You did go to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Jazz page and yet continued making further comments about this article and me in sarcastic manner, instead of doing it here, at this talk page. This was unethical. You were kind of ganging up with Paplo X. Because, you were engaging a conversation with him at some where else and making this improper comment about me.

Not here at my face, but over there!

What you said to Pablo X was, after my opinion, quite an embarrassment for you, if you knew it was. You said:

• "I weighed in with my $0.02 at Talk:Atilla Engin. It could probably use at least another set of (unglazed) eyes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Jazz#Atilla_Engin Gyrofrog (talk) 8:50 pm, 22 September 2010, last Wednesday (2 days ago) (UTC-3)

This "set of, so called, (unglazed) eyes" did really open my eyes I can tell you that. I made a Wiki research on this anonymous Gyrofrog and what did I find was even more baffling that an article you did create some years back, was wandering Misplaced Pages all these years without even a single reference until a set of (unglazed) eyes showed up and put one, the article you created desperately needed. What these smart "unglazed" eyes User:J04n said next was even scary.

He said: "Added a ref & reworded blatant plagiarism from Allmusic" 00:00, 3 July 2010 User:J04n

You didn't use a set of (unglazed) eyes, at the time you created that very article which had no verifiable source what so ever, none, which is a puzzle to me.

Why did you actually create this article to begin with, since it appeared to be that you didn't make your homework? Additionally, the name you wiki-linked five years ago Tracey Moore was not that Tracey Moore neither.

The article looked like this at the time you created with a fake (Tracy Moore) link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Jazzyfatnastees&oldid=21102938

And someone on May 11 2006 comes and says "this is not Tracey Moore the voice actress!" Then wiki-link disappears. You do nothing all of these years. You were bias then, you are bias now. Then another contributor user:J04n comes in July 3rd 2010 and says "Add ref. Reworded blatantly plagiarism from Allmusic," a user happens to be an administrator too. He then adds the only reference he found in which he says the whole wording was plagiarized from. He had no other choice.

Imagine, this tag refimproveBLP was put there on June 27 2010!!! Five years after.

You, nor anyone else did provide any reference. As we speak, NO reference. You did nothing. Not a word. You kept silent. You still do. You created that very article knowingly that these two female singers did not have a shred of verifiable sources while wiki-linking one of them which turned out you wiki-linked the wrong Tracey Moore. What kind of research you made? How could you possibly not know that Tracey Moore which you wiki-linked did not have a page at Misplaced Pages. What was your motive? Actually, how did you do that? Even today they do not have a single verifiable source other than the one questionable biography from Allmusic. And how come there are no discussions on the article's talk page. Has never been.

Now, with all respect, I will kindly ask you to recuse yourself from being part of these conversations because I do not trust your judgment nor do I believe that you can be impartial. This is a credibility matter. I need another administrator to sort these conversations out (between me and Pablo X,) preferably not from Texas.:-)

Well, I'm tired now, since I am a very old individual. Tomorrow, I would like to introduce you the second part of my point of view which this time involves the article itself. Please bear with me, will you?

Thank you for now and have a good night.Fusion is the future (talk) 05:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Start-Class biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Start-Class Jazz articles
• Unknown-importance Jazz articles
• WikiProject Jazz articles