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Revision as of 15:11, 4 October 2010 editBrews ohare (talk | contribs)47,831 edits →Statement by Brews ohare: Reply to WGFinley request for contrition← Previous edit Revision as of 16:04, 4 October 2010 edit undoWGFinley (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,088 edits →Result concerning Brews ohareNext edit →
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*****Although I think that there are problematic contributions, I don't hold to the rigid view that all violations would require a block for enforcement. Since Brews took a and then came back and is discussing the matter, I'm willing to defer a block and instead go with an admonishment/warning/caution to alter his contributions in order to stay out of the center of disputes. Let's get a few more opinions. ]] 19:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC) *****Although I think that there are problematic contributions, I don't hold to the rigid view that all violations would require a block for enforcement. Since Brews took a and then came back and is discussing the matter, I'm willing to defer a block and instead go with an admonishment/warning/caution to alter his contributions in order to stay out of the center of disputes. Let's get a few more opinions. ]] 19:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
*****I would be agreeable to letting this go without any sanctions if I saw some contrition or at the very least a promise to try to do better and avoid these types of disturbances. I haven't seen that yet though. --] (]) 02:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC) *****I would be agreeable to letting this go without any sanctions if I saw some contrition or at the very least a promise to try to do better and avoid these types of disturbances. I haven't seen that yet though. --] (]) 02:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

====Proposed Remedy====

This AE has carried on far, too long, unless there are objections I would like to proceed with the following remedy:

<blockquote>
Brews ohare '''is admonished''':
# for his conduct concerning the AfDs for ] and its forks.
# that he is topic banned from physics and such behaviors should not be carried over to mathematics and this AE serves as formal warning to him for the topic of mathematics.
# that he is still under probation, he should ] when warned and warnings should be carefully considered without regard as to administrative status.
# that taking up editor time in disputes and administrator time on ] is, in fact, a disturbance and he should comport himself to avoid such situations accordingly.
--] (]) 16:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)</blockquote>

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Revision as of 16:04, 4 October 2010

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    Athenean

    Both parties admonished and warned; filer interaction-banned.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Athenean

    User requesting enforcement
    — ZjarriRrethues — 19:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Athenean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Purpose of Misplaced Pages
    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Decorum
    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Editorial process
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Labeling all comments made by Albanian editors as arguments of low quality.
    2. Accusing admin as not impartial because he made a suggestion about the previous dif
    3. Personal attacks against me(although I supported the decision to reduce his sanctions when he was topic banned)
    4. Deleting sourced content from the lead with summary Only an Albanian nationalist would place this in the second sentence of the article.
    5. Deleting sourced content with idontlikeit arguments about the reliability of the source(on RSN it was approved as rs)
    6. Further comments on the author herself that as I have read in some other reports might be considered BLP violations.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning byThe Wordsmith (talk · contribs)
    2. Latest sanctions:User talk:Athenean#Sanction notice extended to User talk:Athenean#Banned
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Indefinite topic ban from all topics and discussions related to Albania, Albanians. He had already received a two-week topic ban on Balkans a couple of months ago.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Athenean has received already two times sanctions for his editing behavior in Balkans related articles. The latest that expired was a four-month 1RR and expired about two-weeks ago. I have seen him many times while taking part in discussions with other users who edit the same articles making aggressive comments about the users themselves likeSuch behavior disgusts me, it's called backstabbing in English. I am done with you, and I am withdrawing from your stupid "collaboration" board. Since the sanctions ended he returned to his previous behavior and even when he was warned by The Wordsmith to ease up on the accusations against other users he didn't stop. Some users who have received the same sanctions as Athenean and also blocks may make comments against other users to defend him. A decision should be taken quickly to avoid any kind of disruptive behavior during this AE.--— ZjarriRrethues — 19:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

    @I think that was the most supportive comment I could make and saying that it could be reduced to 4 months seemed supportive, although I agreed with the initial sanctions, but for my own reasons I changed my mind. If I had to make a similar comment again I would still consider it supportive because I generally don't even partially approve alternatives to already imposed sanctions, so all things considered from my subjective view I probably couldn't more supportive than that. Since the AE Athenean hasn't been very active on Albanian-related topics but regarding the two Albanian-related topics he's taking part in recently this dif is possibly problematic . @Athenean: When Athenean was sanctioned Kedadi(an Albanian user) was sanctioned too, because I reported both sanction violations. The comments of Athenean show his battleground mentality , which is why I reported him to AE and notified admins who had dealt with him before as they would be more familiar with the discussion(and that is something that Athenean labels as canvassing}. Athenean even now labels the comments of all Albanian users as a national block, so all things considered a topic ban from Albanian topics is more than necessary given the fact that fighting nasty Albanian propaganda is one of Athenean's goals on wikipedia, which as I saw in another report is one of the first comments he has ever made on wikipedia I find the nationalist propaganda on the Albania page very dangerous for Greece and its heritage (analogous to the FYROM dispute) and only by uniting will we be able to set the record straight and defeat this nasty propaganda.(this one of his comments, but as you can see Athenean still continues the same behavior by trying to exclude all Albanian users' opinions as comments of low quality).

    • Even now that he should be making comments that show he will refrain from battleground mentality he comments on other users wanting to eliminate their opponents. We've all had frequent disputes with many users, but I've never reported any of them because disagreeing isn't a reason to report someone, but when the editing and the comments become disruptive and show a battleground mentality against other users then the AE is necessary. No other user I've dealt with has ever said that he has opponents who try to eliminate him or that another user's behavior disgusts them because they reported a possible sanction violation or that admins are impartial whenever they warn him because he says that all the comments of Albanian users are of low quality. Cplakidas(a Greek user) and Evlekis(a Montenegrin user) have taken part in several discussions, in which I've disagreed with them and they've disagreed with me but I'd never report them because they're civil enough to not make comments like Athenean.
    • The main problem with Athenean is that he attributes extremely negative motives to users like saying that I'm way too eager to see him banned because made a very common copy/paste mistake. Whenever he chose to not make such comments I was willing to show good faith , but as you can see from his comments even when he's asked to defend himself against he thinks that he's defending himself by attributing extremely negative comments to other users.--— ZjarriRrethues —  10:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Timotheus is right about assuming good faith, but I would like his opinion on how to deal with actions like the deletion of sources because a user doesn't find them appropriate. The source was rs with full details(even the cited sentence was highlighted on the link) and yet Athenean considered it not appropriate so he just deleted it. At first he removed some people from a list , then when the sources that verified that they should be on that list were added he just deleted the source on one of them because he didn't find it appropriate without even explaining why he didn't find it appropriate(maybe after me adding this to AE he'll add that explanation). I'm not trying to find problematic diffs but when the user keeps making edits(like the unexplained deletion of sources) without even trying to explain his views any user would find this a difficult situation. I understand that assuming good faith is important, but when a user has been sanctioned twice he probably knows that deleting sources and not giving any explanation apart from I don't find it appropriate is problematic and that's one of the main reasons that I started this AE. If Athenean had to discuss about issues like deleting sources before deleting them I don't think that there would be any problematic diffs.--— ZjarriRrethues — 20:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
    • @Wgfinley: I agree then with the admonishment and if Athenean agrees too I'm willing(and it would be the best decision) to not have any personal interaction with him apart from simple editing comments and vice-versa, but I'd like him to agree too that he'll do the same. Btw I reported Seleukosa at SPI and a likely resulted turned out, so please Athenean don't consider likely correct reports as wikihounding ,while you reported me 3 days after I signed up as someone's sock and after continued reporting and complaining about me and please don't label as denouncing the two recent events, in which I mentioned two edits for which you were warned. I'm willing to not interact at all with you apart from article talkpage discussions, but you're not willing to do that even though you have reported me and too many Albanian users for exactly the same issues multiple times. We're also discussing this on Athenean's talkpage User talk:Athenean#Ending that AE(on which Athenean removed my latest reply about my proposal to not have any kind of personal interaction but you can read it on this diff ).--— ZjarriRrethues —  22:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Athenean

    Statement by Athenean

    • Regarding the problematic diffs, I would like to point out that I was given due warning about them by User:The Wordsmith , and have refrained from making problematic comments since. The diffs are also almost a month old, and I'd like to think that I haven't said anything problematic in the meantime.
    • Over the 3+ years I have been editing wikipedia, I think that I have been quite civil overall. I have never been sanctioned for incivility before and believe I have generally managed to keep the peace. This is a sensitive, difficult area to work in, emotions frequently run high, and some disputes will invariably get hot. Editors don't get credit for the 999/1000 times they manage to remain civil, but one slip-up and it's sanctions. That I thus should be penalized for two problematic diffs out of thousands of non-problematic diffs I find a bit harsh.
    • Though I was under a 1R/24 hours restriction that expired on September 7, in the interest of the general peace I have voluntarily abided by 1R since. I am trying hard to be constructive, and don't feel that I need to be sanctioned.
    • When disputes become intractable, as they invariably do, I am usually one of the first to seek mediation, either via RfC or by posting at noticeboards such as WP:RSN or WP:CCN . Some disputes were only resolved thanks to my posting on such noticeboards. Again, this shows that I try to bring a constructive approach to resolving disputes in this area.
    • In the interest of creating a positive climate I have also been known to praise Albanian editors when I feel they make a good edit, such as here (even when the particular editor has been anything but polite with me in the past ), and I also admit when I'm wrong and self-revert .
    • Regarding the first problematic diff, I was frustrated because here was a situation where all participating editors from one nationality voted one way, and only one way, and everybody else voted the other. This has previously been dubbed "national block voting" (not by me) and is particularly problematic as far as dispute resolution goes since the traditional dispute resolution tools don't work in such cases. The previous time something similar happened (this time with Greek editors all voting along national lines), the result was a rather hellish arbitration case, WP:ARBMAC2. I thus felt the need to point out what was going on, and felt I was calling a WP:SPADE. Regarding the second diff, again I also got really frustrated, I mean, what else could motivate someone from copy-pasting this sentence from the body of the article right smack into the second sentence of the lede? That said, I understand that making characterizations based on nationality/ethnicity is indeed problematic, and solemnly engage to refrain from making such characterizations in the future.
    • Though I am well aware of WP:NOTTHEM, I feel the need to point that editor filing this AE report is a case of unclean hands. This editor has been pushing for me to get banned for months now, at every available opportunity, crossing deep into WP:HOUND territory. Barely after creating an account, he zealously participates in a frivolous AN/I hatchet-job filed by a user who has now been banned for precisely such disruption . When I successfully appealed an overly harsh topic ban against me, Zjarri was lobbying for a still-lengthy topic ban . I believe this editor is now gaming WP:AE to try and get rid of users that frequently disagree with him on content matters. Over the past months, he has been meticulously and systematically combing through each and every single diff of mine in an attempt to get me sanctioned, mostly via IRC, thus leaving no trace (while also falsely claiming to have reported Albanian users, which he never has). For example, a month ago he showed the same diffs used in this report to The Wordsmith on IRC, but that admin was content with merely issuing a warning. Apparently this wasn't enough, so then a few days later ZjarriRrethues files this report, using the same diffs. When he filed this report, he canvassed admins that had sanctioned me in the past , while studiously avoiding admins that had spoken in support of me , though he interacts with them frequently and they are perhaps the most expert in the area of the Balkans. When this report was archived (doubtless because most admins who saw it didn't find it actionable), what does he do? He de-archives it and re-posts it, on the grounds that I am still "causing disruption". However, between the original filing of this report and now I haven't caused the slightest disruption, and I invite anyone to look at my contribs and see for him/herself. No edit-warring, no incivility, nothing. One is thus left to wonder what his definition of disruption is, besides happening to disagree with him on content matters. He is also always quick to call "disruption" at every opportunity, which makes talking to him problematic . In fact, so eager is he to to see me sanctioned that in his haste he included in this very AE report a diff by another user ! He has also filed a report against another Greek editor who frequently disagrees with him, User:Alexikoua, going so far as copy-pasting text from the AE report on me to the report on Alexikoua (which is also non-actionable and has been ignored). If we include the de-archiving of this report, that's three AE reports posted within the space of 8 days. To me, it is quite evident this user really, really wants me (and other editors that frequently disagree with him) sanctioned. Yet gaming disruption prevention tools such as WP:AE for the purpose of eliminating one's opponents is the epitome of bad faith, wikihounding, and clear WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior.

    P.S.: Following the posting of the above defense, Zjarri Rrethues is now digging up diffs from 3+ years ago, from my naive old days. I think that speaks for itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Athenean (talk • contribs) 03:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

    P.P.S.: Zjarri isn't just hounding me, he is hounding several Greek users at once: User:Alexikoua, User:Seleukosa (his behavior at the SPI speaks for itself). This user should be banned from commenting and filing frivolous reports against several Greek users, not just me. And the interaction ban should be one-sided, as he is the one doing the hounding, not me. The use of IRC to denounce his opponents behind their backs also really really needs to stop (he has done that at least three times recently).

    Comments by others about the request concerning Athenean

    I have to add that Athenean is really carefull in apporaching a variety of sensitive topics, including these that are of national sensitivity among the Balkan countries: he always fills a new case in wp:ani before things would become hot and follows a slow, step-by-step, strategy in order to make it easier to solve the case.

    During the last two years, I watch his contribution, he received by various administrators congratulation messages (]) because of his efforts to battle distruption in wikipedia. I believe if a specific edit-summary was somewhat problematic this can't change the whole picture, especially in this case, when someone, like Athenean, spends hours to improve the quality of this project.Alexikoua (talk) 13:56, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Athenean

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Looking over this. In the mean time, I invite ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs) to show cause why they should not be sanctioned for misrepresenting the contents of this diff as support for reducing Athenean's previous topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 02:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

    I find most of the diffs presented above to be not actionable, but and are problematic, as they tend to reinforce the battleground mentality that is unfortunately pervasive in this area. If there are additional, more recent, diffs not brought up above, they should be brought up now. Since I am contemplating some form of sanctions, I will invite Athenean to respond to this request. T. Canens (talk) 04:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    I agree with T. Canens' conclusions, although Athenean's behaviour is at the low end of disruption and an admonishment would be as far as I think I would go here. Stifle (talk) 08:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
    With respect to Athenean at least, this is ripe for action. My impression after reviewing the submissions is that Athenean has generally behaved reasonably, though mistakes do occasionally happen. I agree with Stifle that an admonishment is sufficient, so barring objections from other uninvolved admins that will be the only action taken. With respect to ZjarriRrethues, while it is acceptable to report misconduct, it is not acceptable to go through an editor's contributions with a fine-toothed comb hunting for the occasional problematic diff, and certainly digging up diffs from three years ago serves no purpose whatsoever. Moreover, I can see no reasonable way the diff I cited above can be interpreted as supportive of Athenean's appeal of his previous ban. I'm having difficulty coming up with a suitable sanction, though. Suggestions would be welcome. T. Canens (talk) 08:58, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
    Concur, strongly admonished that anything further is going to lead to topic ban. I also agree that Zjarri is on the verge of hounding, perhaps and interaction ban with these two with a time limit? --WGFinley (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
    All right. I'm not really seeing Athenean going over the line with his interaction with ZR so I'm imposing only a one-sided ban right now. However, if I see any grave-dancing or other disruption after this it will be made a two-sided ban before you can spell "ban". Under the authority of WP:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions:
    1. Athenean (talk · contribs) is admonished for treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground. He is warned that further infractions may lead to a topic ban.
    2. ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs) is banned from directly interacting with or commenting on Athenean, broadly construed, anywhere on Misplaced Pages for 3 months.
    3. ZjarriRrethues is warned for filing largely inactionable AE requests and for making factually inaccurate statements in AE requests. Any repeated infractions may lead to sanctions, up to and including a ban from AE altogether. T. Canens (talk) 14:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    Concur. --WGFinley (talk) 14:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

    Brews ohare

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Brews ohare

    User requesting enforcement
    JohnBlackburnedeeds 19:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Brews ohare restricted
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Created new article while deletion discussion in progress
    2. Created new article while deletion discussion in progress
    3. Created redirect over article deleted after discussion
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by JohnBlackburne (talk · contribs)
    2. Warning by JohnBlackburne (talk · contribs)
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    I don't know what is needed except something that can convince Brews ohare that he cannot just ignore consensus and policies that he finds inconvenient. In a sense this is the same problem that got him banned from physics – no-one objects to occasional posting of fringe ideas on talk pages, it was the repeated posting against consensus that got him banned – suggesting the existing ban is not having the desired effect.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    A week ago I initiated a deletion discussion on Vector quadruple product as seen here: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Vector_quadruple_product. This was largely uncontentious except for Brews ohare's participation, where he made most of the contributions, repeatedly rewriting his proposals, claiming (one of his) proposals was the "sensible course", and so on. In particular during the discussion he created two articles, proposing first one, then another as replacements, the first a miscellaneous list of vector maths with no clear criteria for inclusion, the second the same as the deleted article with some trivial working, effectively preempting the result of the deletion discussion. In particular now the discussion is over, and the page has been deleted, he has recreated it as a redirect to one his new pages (one of his suggestions that was not supported by anyone else in the discussion), circumventing both the deletion discussion and the consensus of the participants. I tried proposing the new page for deletion, for the reasons given above, but that was removed with the suggestion of another timeconsuming AfD, at the same time accusing my of "sniping" for following process.
    To Wgfinley: I would say this is not physics, except in that all maths is theoretical physics; but this has been clarified in previous discussions, Brews ohare's and David Tombe's topic bans do not extend to mathematics topics like this one.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 07:01, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
    In reply to Brews ohare's latest accusations: I would like to see diffs of my "personal campaign of AN/I actions". The one link provided is to a deletion discussion I started, on an article which Brews ohare had not edited but became unusually interested in, contributing not only most of the discussion (more than all other editors together), but creating two new articles as described above, opening an RfC at another one and declining a PROD when I tried to avoid a second AfD on the same topic, turning what would probably have been a straightforward deletion discussion into a contentious and time consuming debate at multiple venues including this.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 16:35, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    To AGK: before PRODding the article I did consider speedy deletion under WP:CSD#G4 but it would fail (and did fail when another editor added a CSD tag) as it is not identical and unimproved, compared to the deleted article. It is though on the same topic, with changes that could and should have been added to Vector quadruple product before it was deleted, not forked into a separate article while the AfD was in process.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 17:45, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    To Count Iblis Redefinition of a metre was not PRODed by me but by User:Noq. It was only rescued by being completely rewritten: the current article now looks nothing like that one, is now at History of the metre and has none of Brews ohare's original content. Idée fixe (psychology) as it now is still looks like a dictionary definition and WP:QUOTEFARM; I've done what I can to fix problems but it's not received the same attention from experts on the subject as History of the metre. And re this you are confusing it with the PROD which Brews ohare removed--JohnBlackburnedeeds 18:21, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    To David Tombe I repeat what I wrote to Brews ohare above: if you have any problems with my actions please provide diffs. Other than this my most recent visit here was because of Brews ohare's editing at Speed of light and Talk:Speed of light, editing which got him banned for a further year. To imply, without diffs, that anyone other than Brews ohare was at fault is just shooting the messenger.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 19:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    To David Tombe As I recall The Boy Who Cried Wolf was the story of someone who repeatedly called for help when none was needed. Which, is relevant how exactly ? Again, if you have any problems with my participation provide diffs, not vague accusations ("policing"?) and irrelevant literary references. And you have still to comment on the matter at hand.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 19:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    Brews ohare notified:

    Discussion concerning Brews ohare

    Statement by Brews ohare

    Of course, there are many ways to approach salvage of article content, and Blackburne apparently would prefer it be done differently. Posting a replacement article without the flaws of the one in dispute is a reasonable approach to retaining what was of value, particularly when the article in AfD had so many failings (including an incorrect title) that made a total rewrite the practical course of action. The Vector quadruple product discussion was not interfered with, and that article was deleted as was evident would happen from the beginning, and as advocated by Blackburne himself. The newly corrected article Quadruple product with a correct title and proper citations is presently under AfD without the distractions of obvious problems, and will be removed if notability cannot be established. That course of events requires no disciplinary intervention.

    It is odd to view creation of a corrected, sourced article with the right title as interference. It isn't an infraction of WP procedures. Blackburne's claim of a violation of this sanction as the basis for bringing his action here has no connection to the AfD issue. That is, Blackburne is not requesting enforcement of a sanction against me, but confusing an AfD discussion with something it is not. His action does not belong here, and no-one here has shown any cause to believe it does. A (false) perception of my interpretations of physics topics is not a basis for action here upon an unrelated matter that is, in fact, a salutary action to salvage an article's correct content. Brews ohare (talk) 19:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

    BTW; the terms of the sanctions against me require a formal warning by an uninvolved administrator that action is under consideration, to allow me to desist without need for disciplinary action. No such warning was provided, vitiating any action under the sanctions.

    Of course, it is my position that creating an article to salvage a math topic in AfD is not a disciplinary matter anyway, and has no connection to the sanctions in force against me. So protocol violations are of importance only if by some weird twist of thought it is considered that the sanctions actually apply, which has not been shown, nor even argued. Brews ohare (talk) 19:27, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

    WGFinley: I am sorry that your review has not changed your mind, despite the facts that (i) the sanction does not apply (ii) were it to apply, it was improperly implemented and (iii) my actions were beneficial to WP and conform to normal WP editing. You view an important aspect of the sanction, that of prior warning, as Wikilawyering: ArbCom knows why it put that warning into the wording, and it was not so it could be ignored. Contrary to your reading, it serves the purpose of warning me that what is on its face a benign activity will be interpreted as an actionable infraction.

    However, the main problem is not the wording of the sanction, it is that no effort has been made to show the sanction does apply, and that my actions were not exactly what I claim them to be: a salvage operation entirely separate from the subject of the sanction. Ask yourself what possible other motive I might have. Am I expressing a controversial opinion? No. Am I developing original research? Hardly! Am I arguing with other editors about deletion? Only with Blackburne, who rather than discuss deletion, came here to exercise. Personally, I don't give a damn about this article: I was simply trying to be of service. If it is deleted, so be it. Excuse my language, #$%^ this article. It would be lamentable if you were so rushed that you could not take the time to think about your actions, and simply rubber-stamped. Brews ohare (talk) 21:46, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

    Reply to WGFinley's latest: Your assessment of my objectives is a half-truth: I was not aiming to avoid deletion of the article, but to salvage what was correct under an appropriate topic name. That was in no way disruptive, and the article from the outset was clearly going to deletion, with protests from no-one, as happened. Look at the deletion discussion. Blackburne is not protesting against actual disruption, but pursuing his personal campaign of AN/I actions, failed attempts at deletions of other articles I have posted (for example, this), deletion of my figures, forcing of nit-picking RfC's over any detail he can find, and trivial reversions of my minor edits. Brews ohare (talk) 17:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

    More to WGFinley: “The behavior that brought me to Arbcom” is covered by the restrictions proposed by Arbcom, and cited by Blackburne as being violated by my present actions. These restrictions (i) have not been shown to be violated, and (ii) the warning required by protocol wasn't issued.

    Instead of dismissal of this action as not pertinent, now the subject has turned to vague assertions of various “disturbances that took place in various areas”, which are only say-so claims by Blackburne. At the most, any "disturbance" amounts to creation of a substitute article without the obvious problems identified in the original AfD. The new article has resulted in an AfD for Quadruple product that now is proceeding on a clear basis with the glaring issues of the original out of the way. That is not “forcing the process to start over”: it's clearing the decks for an uncluttered discussion. This salvage procedure isn't Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system, that is, it isn't “a bad faith effort to thwart the purposes of WP”. Rather, it's a normal evolution of an article that needed a lot of work, including a new title, corrected statements, and sourcing. To introduce the notion of malicious intent on my part is baseless. Brews ohare (talk) 00:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

    Reply to Flonight: Even granting your long preamble that the manner of my contributions annoys some editors, I fail to see merit in blocking me for the innocuous creation of an article in a totally uncontroversial area. In fact, WP appears likely to have two new articles of mine, Vector algebra relations and Quadruple product, that will have been adopted as a result of my activities regarding the original AfD, and despite objections by Blackburne. You are advocating a block for actions unrelated to the issues you wish to underline. I'd suggest you wait to block me until some truly problematic behavior of mine shows up, and not for constructive activities like salvaging the contents of an article in AfD. Brews ohare (talk) 13:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

    Regarding your observation “Brews needs to be more sensitive to how his content contributions and discussion comments come across to other people in order to lower the tensions around him.” I would like to lower those tensions too. I don't think my content contributions are the biggest problem (aside from arguments about their being too text-book like or offering too many examples), but it does appear that editors do not appreciate detailed Talk page discussions, and like to settle matters simply. I believe I am evolving in the direction of limited response, although I believe limited discussion to result in simple-minded articles. Brews ohare (talk) 13:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

    Response to request for contrition made by WGFinley: WGF, I agree that reform of my Talk page argumentativeness is desirable. However, I do not find that such argumentativeness is the source of Blackburne's action. No editor involved in the various AfD's save Blackburne has found my behavior there heinous, and Administrators don't either: they just think I'm in the dock so some reminder that I am under sanction would be salutary. I assure you that such a reminder is unnecessary. In the present instance, no violation of my sanctions has occurred, and even if you believe yourself that a violation did occur, protocol has not been followed. That is, despite your own interpretation, the fair-warning clause of my sanction was not observed, which in your mind is just surplus garbage in the wording. I believe that in fact it is a crucial part of the sanction, especially when benign actions to salvage article content from deletion is taken as an offense, something I'd not expect unless warned.

    So, although I'm happy to admit failings, and need for reform, I do not find the present situation warrants any action on your part, and that my behavior in the past, already under sanction, needs no gratuitous emphasis in the present context. Brews ohare (talk) 15:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

    Comment by Count Iblis (Brews' advocate :) )

    Brews has let me know that he won't have time for Misplaced Pages for the coming few weeks and asked me to take a look at the article about the quadruple product, particularly his comments here, because he thought the article would be put on AFD by John Blackburne after he left. He presumably doesn't know that the matter has ended up here.

    I didn't have enough time to read through all the disputes, but what I did note was lack of participation from other math experts in the AFD. I.m.o., the matter should have been raised at WikiProject math, because the issue isn't that straightforward. It is now hard to see what is consensus and what is the opinion of JohnBlackburne and User:DVdm.

    I have asked User:Hans Adler, an experienced math editor, if he has the time to give his comments here. My preliminary look leads me to conclude that this is one of those issues where I say: "what is all the fuss about", but I know that others sometime have a competely different opinion in such cases. So that's why I asked him to take a look. Count Iblis (talk) 01:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

    Reply to JohnBlackburne on "opposing" Brews

    I have a different opinion on your actions that Brews has. I don't see it as a personal campaign to oppose Brews per se. But you do have the complete opposite POV when it comes to editing/creating articles. Two previous articles in which Brews was heavily involved that you put on AFD that I'm aware of are:

    Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Idée fixe

    Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Redefinition of the Metre in 1983

    Both of these articles are now reasonably good articles (I think these artiles were even PRODed first by you, but I would have to check). About the PROD for the quadruple product article, note that it was eventually refused by JamesBWatson on the grounds: "Declining speedy deletion. This article is substantially different from the one discussed in the previous AfD."

    I think all this is well motivated, you edit Misplaced Pages to improve it in the best way you see fit. But when doing so leads to you frequently having to "oppose" another editor and if that opposition (which is not your goal per se) is often rejected by the community, you have to ask yourself if your opinion is not a bit idiosyncratic. It may be better to raise perceived problems at Wiki-Project Math first and let others take the initiative to start an AFD, or warn Brews about misconduct. Count Iblis (talk) 17:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

    Comment by jheiv

    The article seems useless (IMO), however, what looks to be more of a concern is the user's actions during the AfD discussion. And while the article looks fine on its face (some sourcing, pretty equations), it worries me that the user is so committed to his edits that he refuses to seek consensus, or actively opposes it. To be honest, its a little disappointing because it looks as if the editor has the skills and ability to contribute productively, if they had any interest in it at all -- but at least from the actions outlined here -- it's not clear to me that they do. jheiv 08:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

    Comment by Hans Adler

    I am only commenting here because Count Iblis asked me to.

    About the question of mathematics or physics: This article is about mathematics, although it is the kind of mathematics that interests physicists much more than mathematicians.

    About the article itself: It seems useless to me. Basically it just defines a term that is not very important. If it is in common use among some people, then it should be defined in a related article and the article should be redirected there.

    About Brews Ohare's editing of mathematics articles: He has contributed a large number of beautiful graphics to Pythagorean theorem. He has also participated in one of the most bizarre debates about a mathematical topic that I have ever seen (now filling most of talk page archives 3 and 4), started by David Tombe, who claimed that the theorem is really a three-dimensional theorem and in particular that it doesn't hold in higher dimensions. Brews Ohare's role in this discussion was not clear to me (in fact I confused him with David Tombe and in a previous version of this comment falsely claimed that he had started the discussion), but in any case I think he didn't help to stop the circus.

    It is generally not a good idea to ignore consensus or ongoing discussions. On the other hand this is not a clear case of doing so. It appears that Brews Ohare misjudged other editors' positions and attitudes, especially w.r.t. himself, and was acting in a spirit of good faith and collaborative editing. (I am not very familiar with him, though, and may be missing a general pattern here.) Hans Adler 16:19, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

    Would like some elaboration regarding getting emailed from David Tombe, did he email you about your comments here? --WGFinley (talk) 21:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
    Comment by David Tombe

    It might be a good idea if any future actions taken against Brews ohare were to be initiated by editors other than John Blackburne or Headbomb. I have totally lost count of how many actions these two editors have taken out against Brews ohare in the last 12 months, but apart from one action by Physchim62, I can't recall any actions against Brews ohare which were not initiated by either Headbomb or John Blackburne. It doesn't look good when the requests for sanctions and article deletions are always coming from the same two editors. David Tombe (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

    Reply to John Blackburne

    John, The point which I am making is that I think the time has now come for you to voluntarily stand aside and let somebody else take on the role of policing Brews ohare. I think you've done your bit for now. This latest episode concerning the vector quadruple product has got some of the hallmarks of The Boy Who Cried Wolf, and as such, I think it's only fair to the administrators to allow them the opportunity to see if anybody else will take over if you step aside. David Tombe (talk) 19:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Brews ohare

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Creating articles, redirects, etc when the article is being discussed in an AfD is very bad form and seems to be in violation of his restriction. The topic of this article is in the field of theoretical physics is it not? Looking at the soruces for the secondary source article from MathWorld, three of the four are books on physics. --WGFinley (talk) 05:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

    I'd say we can call it math. T. Canens (talk) 15:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

    I find the conduct of this user to continue to be disruptive and subject to repeated cases. This year alone March, July and twice in August he's been a subject here for his disruption either by editors or by Arbcom. Creating forks of an article under AfD or recreating an article under AfD is WP:GAME and a user under his restrictions should know better. Now banned from physics it appears he may be turning to mathematics. I would propose the following remedy:

    1. One week block, he's already had a one week block earlier but it's been some time, I think it's an appropriate duration.
    2. Admonishment not to extend disruptive behavior he is banned for in physics over to mathematics, if it continues further sanctions or requests to Arbcom may be necessary.

    --WGFinley (talk) 04:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

    I concur. This was not catastrophically bad, but was a user tiptoeing around the edges of prior sanctions with more questionable behavior, and should be discouraged. The proposal by Wgfinley seems balanced from that point of view. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
    Agree with the above. T. Canens (talk) 08:11, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
    I agree with the one week block and the admonishment. I suggest that the enforcement be implemented after Brews ohare responds to the enforcement request because I see no point in actioning an enforcement against someone on a break. (I realize that this would delay closing this request but think that completely the paperwork in a timely manner is less important than implementing the block at the best time. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 20:39, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    I don't have a problem with keeping it open a bit but it mentions a few weeks, that seems entirely too long. I would propose keeping it open another week for him to respond, if nothing then we can move forward. --WGFinley (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

    Have reviewed Brews response, it doesn't cause me to change my position on the suggestion here. Stating an uninvolved admin needs to warn is WP:LAWYER at best and I believe not true in my read of the sanction. Editors shouldn't have to fetch an admin every time an editor under probation needs to be warned. Unless Arbcom has determined otherwise I would keep the same remedy. Thoughts?? --WGFinley (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

    • This complaint on its own seems to me to be far from actionable. If the three diffs provided form part of a long-term pattern of unhelpful editing then we must have more illustration of that; or if Brews' actions had a considerable impact on the consensus-building then I would like to see that illustrated (eg., were the deletion discussions volatile or hotly contested?). Am I the only one missing something here? AGK 22:31, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
      • I think the reason this was brought was because the article went to AfD and it looked like the consensus was for deletion. Brews started coming up with proposals to avoid deletion by proposing changes and then doing a new article. He should have let the AfD run its course, once it was done if he wants to take the comments there and try to craft a better article that would be reasonable. I think doing it in the middle of the process is disruptive and could be considered WP:GAME (i.e. creating a new article which would require its own AfD and forcing the process to start over). --WGFinley (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
        • If the consensus of the participants in the AFD was to delete the article then it would have been difficult for Brews to edit the article after the discussion had closed :-). And surely the trend of improving a page that is the subject of an XFD is not to be discouraged (and indeed, is the essence of the Article Rescue Squadron)? Certainly the creation of a duplicate article is questionable, but the administrator who closed the AFD on the original article would have simply deleted the duplicate per WP:CSD#G4 if the consensus was to delete. I still am seeing no attestable malicious intent on Brews' part. AGK 17:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
          • That's a straw man argument. Attestable malicious behavior is not required before placing a section. We don't know intentions so we look at the results of behavior. Do you think Brews ohare's style of commentary is helping or harming the discussion? Brews could help himself greatly by distilling his comments, and by refraining from repeating them. Jehochman 20:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
            • I don't know. And as no evidence has been supplied to answer that question, I don't care either. This board is for evaluating complaints based on the material provided, rather than for users to start a thread on another editor and then wait for a block-worthy diff to be posted. I've repeatedly asked for evidence of a wider pattern of disruption, to no avail, so forgive me if I don't much care for your 'straw man' labelling!

              By the by: Are you uninvolved in this matter? AGK 20:39, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

          • I definitely hear where you are coming from AGK but I think if you look at the disturbances that took place in various areas as a result of this it looks a lot like the behavior that brought him to Arbcom. On its face there doesn't appear to be much but you look at the totality of it and his responses here (essentially WP:NOTTHEM) it seems he continues to see no issues with what he's doing. --WGFinley (talk) 21:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
    • FloNight: As you support sanctioning Brews, could you please comment on the issues I raised? AGK 17:21, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
      • AGK, my background view: Many people under editing restrictions do not get them because their contributions are malicious. They may be well intended. Often the person is tendentious about their contributions in the area. They overwhelm existing processes to get to their own edits on Misplaced Pages to the point that they develop poor relations with other people in the topic area. Talk and Xfd discussions become tense and unpleasant. And from there the editor develops alternative ways to get his content into articles despite other editors repeatedly raising concerns about the overall helpfulness of the persons contributions. It is not unfair to ask someone to be more sensitive to the concerns of the majority of the people working in a topic area. Since it is not possible to stop the majority of the other users from responding negatively to the editors contributions, that editor is placed on restrictions if they are not able to modify their conduct and get along with the other users.
      • To the particulars of this situation: to my mind Brews is someone who is capable of making good contributions. But his contributions can be off the mark enough that other editors feel the need to look through them more closely than other peoples. So his new article got extra scrutiny. IMO, writing a new article came across as being tendentious in favor of his own edits. Since he is under editing restrictions we end up with this request for enforcement. While this is not an extremely problematic situation, I understand the reason for the request and WGFinley suggested enforcement. Brews needs to be more sensitive to how his content contributions and discussion comments come across to other people in order to lower the tensions around him. In the past, Brews has not been able to get this message with a casual request. So, I think that a short block or topic ban is not unreasonable in order to get his attention that he needs to work harder at making edits that stop editing disputes rather than being at the center of conflicts repeatedly. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 10:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Repy to Brews ohare: Thank you for reading my comment and making a thoughtful reply. One example of content being questioned by other editors would be the article at Afd that triggered this complaint. Opinions are mixed on whether the content is good. The mixed nature of the views is what makes the situation difficult because it causes strife between users. Also, your comments on talk pages do cause other editors to get frustrated. When I see an editor repeatedly at the center of disputes (which you have been repeatedly), I think that there is more that they can do to work collaboratively with other volunteer contributors. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 14:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
          • I'd like to avoid placement of a sanction. If Brews gets the idea from this conversation, that is a good thing. Jehochman 14:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
            • Although I think that there are problematic contributions, I don't hold to the rigid view that all violations would require a block for enforcement. Since Brews took a lengthy break and then came back and is discussing the matter, I'm willing to defer a block and instead go with an admonishment/warning/caution to alter his contributions in order to stay out of the center of disputes. Let's get a few more opinions. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
            • I would be agreeable to letting this go without any sanctions if I saw some contrition or at the very least a promise to try to do better and avoid these types of disturbances. I haven't seen that yet though. --WGFinley (talk) 02:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

    Proposed Remedy

    This AE has carried on far, too long, unless there are objections I would like to proceed with the following remedy:

    Brews ohare is admonished:

    1. for his conduct concerning the AfDs for vector quadruple product and its forks.
    2. that he is topic banned from physics and such behaviors should not be carried over to mathematics and this AE serves as formal warning to him for the topic of mathematics.
    3. that he is still under probation, he should assume good faith when warned and warnings should be carefully considered without regard as to administrative status.
    4. that taking up editor time in disputes and administrator time on WP:AE is, in fact, a disturbance and he should comport himself to avoid such situations accordingly.

    --WGFinley (talk) 16:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


    Lontech

    Lontech (talk · contribs) is hereby banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Kosovo, broadly construed. T. Canens (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Lontech

    User requesting enforcement
    Enric Naval (talk) 22:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Lontech (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    "In addition, you will be required to discuss any content reversions on the article talk paged" based in WP:ARBMAC
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 14 September. removes "cradle of Serbian culture", no edit summary and doesn't discuss in talk page
    2. 23 September. removes same text a more neutral version of the same text, edit summary is only "rv, pov", doesn't post in the talk page discussion of that text
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Lontech is aware of the restriction, since he has filed two reports based on it
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Block of adequate length (optionally, place another temporal topic ban on Kosovo topics)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Lontech has removed twice the same sentence in 9 days, making no discussion in the talk page. The restriction requires that all content reversions are discussed. The talk page had an active discussion about this very same sentence.

    Lontech, check your removals again:

    • 1st "Kosovo became the cradle of Serbian culture"
    • 2nd "Serbs came to consider Kosovo the cradle of Serbian culture"

    The first text was POV and dab's comment applies. The second one was an improved version that was not POV. Maybe you didn't realize that the text had changed? --Enric Naval (talk) 18:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Lontech

    Statement by Lontech

    I dont see a violation of rules

    Thanks for clarifying that Revere was after 1 week ( 9 days later ) so there is no 1RR violation

    Regarding Discussion: It was and still it is clear pov . Dab has explained very well

    afaik it is undisputed that Kosovo was populated with a Serbian majority prior to 1800 just as it is undisputed that there is an Albanian majority now. As for "cradle", the Serbs as an ethnicity began to articulate from a generic South Slavic population in the 6th to 9th century. There was no territory coterminous with Kosovo prior to the 19th century so it can hardly be the cradle of Serbian culture. According to our Serbs article, " The first Serb states were Rascia, Doclea, Travunia, Pagania and Zachlumia." It is undisputed that what is now Kosovo is a part of these territories, but I see no evidence that it was in any sense more of a "cradle" than any other part. "Kosovo" got its relevance only in the wake of 1389, long after Serbian culture had emerged. So yes, what is now Kosovo used to be part of medieval Serbia, but no, I see no evidence it was a "cradle" (or ?"crux") in any particular sense. --dab (𒁳) 16:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

    or It has been required to copy and paste again dabs coment.-- LONTECH  Talk  17:32, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

    Note that Dab's remark lies within a cluster of other statements on the talk page; this paragraph did not conclude the discussion as it has continued. Several editors have left notes. Evlekis (Евлекис) 19:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Lontech

    Per multiple disputed actions, and per some previous and contemporary personal attacks (diff, Lontech - ethnic attacks at ANI, reported by SarekOfVulcan) and pov pushing by this user, some urgent reaction is required regarding this request. User was blocked indef by J.delanoy, but unblocked also by him after agreement to follow the rules. It looks like that agreement is forgotten by Lontech. --WhiteWriter 12:27, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Lontech

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    The point of a discussion restriction is to get people to discuss. It's not an "each side can make a post on talk page and then revert with impunity" restriction. The violations are unambiguous, and given that a time-limited topic ban on Kosovo related topics has been imposed once already, I'm opting for a indefinite ban on this violation. Under the authority of WP:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions, Lontech (talk · contribs) is hereby banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Kosovo, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed as provided in WP:ARBMAC#Appeal of discretionary sanctions. T. Canens (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

    Concur. --WGFinley (talk) 21:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

    Shutterbug

    The requested remedy is ultra vires of this forum, please go to AN with this request. Courcelles 04:07, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Shutterbug

    User requesting enforcement
    -- Cirt (talk) 03:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Shutterbug (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    1. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS
    2. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Shutterbug_topic-banned_and_restricted
    3. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Account_limitation
    4. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Editors_instructed
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 03:33, 2 June 2009 - Blocked 24 hours for violation of topic ban.
    2. 19:57, 17 May 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Wobblegenerator, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    3. 18:12, 19 May 2010 - Shutterbug sockmaster account indef blocked, for sockpuppetry.
    4. 20:28, 24 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:MrSimmonds, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    5. 20:29, 24 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:JessaRinaldi, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    6. 22:57, 24 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Jbsweden9, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    7. 01:59, 27 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:AlexJohnTorres12, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    8. 03:42, 27 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Jimgreensboro, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    9. 03:44, 27 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Mike Greenwood, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    10. 03:45, 27 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Monsignore, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    11. 03:49, 27 August 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Fairyday, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    12. 20:25, 24 September 2010 - Shutterbug's sockpuppet, User:Margaret's son, indef blocked for violation of topic ban and account limitation of Shutterbug.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. 01:31, 29 May 2009 - Notice of WP:ARBSCI restrictions by Mailer diablo (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    2. 03:31, 2 June 2009 - Block notice for violation of topic ban by Thatcher (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    3. 17:06, 19 May 2010 - Indef block notice for sockpuppetry by PhilKnight (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

    Upgrade, from existing indef block to ban.

    1. The account is already subject to probation, per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS#Article_probation.
    2. The account is already topic-banned, and restricted to one account, per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Scientology#Shutterbug_topic-banned_and_restricted.
    3. After violating probation, violating the topic-ban, violating the restriction to one account, and violating site policy on sockpuppetry, the account has been indef blocked.

    Request this be changed to a ban. -- Cirt (talk) 03:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 03:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

    Discussion concerning Shutterbug

    Statement by Shutterbug

    Comments by others about the request concerning Shutterbug

    Result concerning Shutterbug

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Not an AE matter; please take it to AN for a community ban discussion. T. Canens (talk) 04:03, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

    Okay, will do. -- Cirt (talk) 04:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    Understood, alright, thank you. Will take advice of T. Canens. -- Cirt (talk) 04:11, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
    Now at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Community_ban_for_User:Shutterbug. -- Cirt (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

    Martintg

    Blocked for one week.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Martintg

    User requesting enforcement
    Offliner (talk) 07:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:EEML#Modified_by_open_motion_6:
    • Martintg (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics, until December 22, 2010 (one year from the closing of the original case).
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. (the edit in question is in the very heart of the national and ethnic disputes of Eastern Europe: World War II, the occupation of the Baltic states, Russia-Baltic relations, etc. (See this or this for background.) Martintg's edit was reverted as "tendentious" by a neutral editor ) According to User:Piotrus the editor in question is "respected by both sides"
    5. (Holocaust in the Baltic States is a key area of nationalistic EE disputes, see this for Guardian article for background)
    7. (edit reverted by another editor )
    8. Martintg continued to edit war, and his edit was reverted again as WP:OR Communist atrocities are the root cause of the EE disputes.
    9. "Of all the totalitarian regimes, that of the Soviet Union was, between 1929 and 1953, the most perfect embodiment of state terrorism"
    11. Martintg created an article about a novel which is about "deportation to Stalin's gulags of those Estonians deemed to have collaborated during the 1941-44 German occupation"
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    2. Warning by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    3. Warning by Henrik (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    4. Warning by arbitrator User:SirFozzie: "there's not much wiggle room here, and that a return to previous behaviors will mean it's near-immediate reinstatement."
    5. Warning by arbitrator User:Newyorkbrad (who drafted the latest version of the topic ban): there is "a strong expectation that the problematic behaviors addressed in the original decision must not recur."
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Block and reset of topic ban
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    In short, Martintg has been violating his topic ban from the very beginning. Two days after the WP:EEML arbitration ended and Martintg had received his topic ban, Martintg was already back in action at Mass killings under Communist regimes: (Confirmation by an arbitrator that this the subject falls within the topic ban: ). Several of his violations led to direct warnings by admins: (Confirmation of violation and warning by an admin: ) Violation of Martintg's Russavia interaction ban: Yet another warning by an admin: After the latest amendment, the violations increased. In the amendment request, Martintg tried to get his ban lifted completely so that he could again participate in editing about ethnic and national disputes within Eastern Europe . ArbCom only agreed to a narrowing of the topic ban, with editing in ethnic and national disputes still prohibited: . As the diffs above indicate, Martintg ignored this and decided to return to the ethnic and national disputes anyway. The next day after his topic ban was narrowed, Martintg immediately immediately went to create an article about a book which discusses deportations of Estonians in the Soviet Union.. If that's not an egregious violation of his topic ban - which prohibits national and ethnic disputes - then I don't know what is.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Martintg

    Statement by Martintg

    Frankly, I'm not surprised that Offliner is attempting to game WP:AE and wikilawyer that I have some how breached my topic ban, I predicted this may well happen during my amendment request here, and it has come to pass. It's not the first time Offliner has attempted to game the system, having had me permanently blocked for WP:OUTING until some level headed admins realised an hour later his claims were bogus. I said to the drafting Arbitrator Newyorkbrad at the time of my amendment request that I will be going back to ArbCom should this happen to seek further clarifcation and possibly an interaction ban, and I will be filing such a request to ArbCom in coming days.

    In the mean time a few comments regarding the specifics of this vexatious complaint:

    1. The amendment significantly narrows the scope of the topic ban, significantly the term "widely construed" is no longer present and my good faithed understanding is that the restriction would be relevant to articles like Kuril Islands dispute, Bronze Night and Anti-Estonian sentiment which have been the primary locus of disruption in the past and are all articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes respectively, and I have avoided such articles despite the recent attention of my past opponents.
    2. All of the diffs supplied are articles outside the scope of that restriction:
      1. State continuity of the Baltic states is a interesting topic of international law and how it applies to the status of the Baltic states, it is a new sub-article of Occupation of the Baltic states which was split this year due to size. Prior to that the parent article was stable for years without disruption, as the article history shows.
      2. Jägala concentration camp is an article about a Nazi concentration camp and the numbers related to the murders carried out there. It is news to me that Holocaust in the Baltic States is "a key area of nationalistic EE disputes", everyone I know agrees it was a terribly heinous crime. I had just recently purchased Anton Weiss-Wendt's excellent book on the Holocaust in Estonia which happen to have some data on Jägala concentration camp, so I updated the article accordingly.
      3. Communist terrorism is about the influence of leftist ideology on modern terrorism, their ideology was based on class, not ethnicity or nationalism.
      4. Offliner takes issue with the creation of the article Purge (novel), yet the arbitrators are fully aware that the Soviet period had a significant impact on the arts in Estonia, as my first diff above shows. It is virtually impossible to write about anything about the arts without reference to occupation, that's a fact of life, I brought that to the attention of the arbs and they seemed okay with it.
      5. Offliner even cites nominating the article Operation Pike for DYK, and which the Arbitrator Rlevse credits a DYK to me, as a topic ban violation, for crying out loud!
    3. The diffs given in the section of "notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to" all significantly predate the amended topic ban, by up to nine months, so I don't see how these stale diffs can be seen as fair warning that I am violating my current topic ban.
    4. The diffs given in the section "Additional comments by editor filing complaint" are also over nine months old, so I don't see the relevance to the new topic ban regime here.

    --Martin (talk) 09:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

    Statement by Petri Krohn

    The central and core issue in the Eastern European disputes – as it relates to Estonia and other Baltic republics – is the claimed state continuity of the Baltic states in exile (hist). On one side there is the point-of-view that the Baltic republics were under military occupation by the Soviet Army from 1940 to 1991 or 1992 or even 1994. On the other side there is the point-of-view, that the claimed Soviet occupation of the Baltic States – outside the very narrow context of the one-sided Soviet reinterpretation of the 1939 Military Bases Agreement in June 1940 and associated troop deployments – is nothing more than falsification of history and its inclusion in Misplaced Pages constitutes a fringe WP:POVFORK on the articles on the Soviet Baltic republics, i.e. Estonian SSR, Latvian SSR, and Lithuanian SSR.

    A related dispute exist around the “Double Genocide movement” – or the point-of-view that “Red equals Brown”; that “Soviet crimes” equal or exceed Nazi crimes. An sampling of opinions in this heated real-world debate is available at Holocaust in the Baltics web site maintained by Dovid Katz, see Media Chronicle. Note, that the collection contains op-ed pieces in The Guardian this very week. Notable pundits in this debate include Imbi Paju (hist) and Sofi Oksanen (hist) – as well her novel Purge (hist) – and most likely the Baltic-American Freedom Foundation (hist).

    As the sources above also demonstrate, material to the EE disputes is the the Holocaust in Estonia, including key articles like Jägala concentration camp (hist), Kalevi-Liiva (hist) and Omakaitse (diff), and the claimed Estonian glorification of Nazism, a topic directly linked to the article Erna Raid (hist). .

    Martintg'a edits to less controversial subjects mainly push his point-of-view relating these issues:

    In fact, looking at Martintg's edit history, the only article I can find that is not directly related to the current Russian–Estonian information war is the one on Jacob Johann Köhler (1698–1757).

    The fact that Martintg has not been confronted because of his recent edits should not be considered as tacit acceptance of his actions. This is a very long running dispute and those on the other side have learned to value patience. His edits have been closely followed – with awe and despair. What finally forced Offliner to take action was this formal warning to Martintg by user Igny today. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Martintg

    • I personally do not like some of the items listed as evidence, especially the last 2. For the others, Martintg may be pushing the envelope on this with the other edits, however. Suggest to disengage just so you do not trip the remedy. - Penwhale | 13:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Underlying issue is the fact that concentration camps can lead to ethnic disputes, and the state continuity article looks to be dealing with international disputes within EE. - Penwhale | 14:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
        • A national dispute is a dispute concerning nations or peoples. International disputes most definitely are a subset of this. Also, concentration camps and the Holocaust in the Baltic States is in the heart of severe Eastern European disputes (the link is very much recommended reading for anyone who wishes to get a basic overview of what Eastern European disputes are about, before commenting). Offliner (talk) 14:50, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
          • The author of that Guardian article, Dovid Katz, resides in Lithuania, and the article almost exclusively discusses the situation in Lithuania. I'm not familiar with the situation in Lithuania, but I do know there is absolutely no dispute in Estonia regarding the Holocaust, reports have written apportioning blame, memorials have been built, remembrance days promulgated, synagogues built. There simply is no dispute. --Martin (talk) 15:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    • The ban as cited by Offliner - Martintg is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe does not seem to include disputes concerning Communism, Socialism or other ideologies and the directly related events like Communist terror. I don't know what the intentions of the drafters of this remedy were, but it seems to be phrased in a manner that doesn't really ban Martin from topics like Communism, just from national disputes. In sum, I concur with the view of Penwhale. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 13:11, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    Martintg's work during the EEML was covered by nationalistic disputes and topics such "Communist genocide" and "Occupation of the Baltic states", exactly the type that Martintg engages in again. If edits like , with Martintg inserting material such as
    "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia has announced that the distortion of history and allegations of unlawful occupations are the main reasons for the problems in the Baltic–Russia relations"
    or "The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe noted the Soviet Union violated the right of the Baltic people to self-determination. The acts of 1940 had resulted in occupation and illegal annexation."
    has nothing to do with national disputes between the Baltic States and Soviet Union/Russia, then I don't know what does. The same goes for the Holocaust (ethnic killing of jews) in Estonia , or creating an article about a book on ethnic deportations of Estonians within the Soviet Union - if they don't have anything to do with ethnic disputes in Eastern Europe, then what does? Offliner (talk) 14:22, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    The novel is a bad example. I'll use Sophie's Choice to illustrate why. Sophie's Choice deals with a choice made by the titular character at Auschwitz during Holocaust. Can Martintg, then, not edit that article either? - Penwhale | 14:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    Of course he can edit Sophie's Choice, because it's not about ethnic disputes in Eastern Europe, as is the book which is about ethnic deportations of Estonians in the Soviet Union. Offliner (talk) 14:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    That is simply not true. The communist deported many ethnicities from Estonia, ethnic Russians, Jews as well as ethnic Estonians. Many ethnic Estonians sided with the communists too. Ethnicity played no part, it was loyalty to the communist ideology and rule that determined who was deported. --Martin (talk) 14:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    RE:Offliner. The “book on ethnic deportations of Estonians” you are referring to is not exactly about disputes. I think your interpretation of the Arbcom sanction would expands the scope of that remedy too much. Whereas I'd say that the Serb-Croatian relations in 1990s can be described as Eastern European ethnic disputes (or take Abkhaz-Georgian conflict for example), in contrast I disagree with the assumption that disputes regarding communism, per definition an unnational ideology, automatically fall under this topic ban. What we need, is some kind of explanation by the Arbcom, that would clarify the scope of the remedy concerned. And AFAIK, Jägala concentration camp is by no means a subject of ethnic or national dispute, neither here nor off-wiki. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 14:38, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    • As I said above, I brought to the attention of the Arb's who drafted the amendment the fact that the arts are deeply influenced by the Soviet occupation, and it is impossible to write anything about it without mentioning it. He was okay with that, indicating that he had something else in mind when he drafted the amendment, than what Offliner is attempting to construe here. No point in second guessing what the intent was, so I'm going to seek clarification from the Arbs with a formal request. --Martin (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Could we please have both opinions and enforcement by an uninvolved and impartial administrator(s)? Jehochman enforcing a ban to Martintg is completely inappropriate. As for Martintg's behavior, how about warning and explanation first, what topics can be considered disallowed for him, not just a blind hit with a banhammer which is just damaging to Misplaced Pages. As it is obvious, he did not realize that editing articles far from national disputes can be artificially constructed to be a violation of the narrowed topic ban - and no one can say his edits have been damaging or bad. --Sander Säde 18:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning Martintg

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    I have blocked Martintg for one week for an obvious violation of his topic ban. The first diff alone is sufficient evidence. Jehochman 15:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    I agree with that this diff was a violation and enforcement of the sanction was appropriate. Further, getting into edit wars or pov contributions on topics "slightly" outside of the current editing restriction (which is evident in some of the diffs) would not reduce or eliminate the need for action, but instead would trigger a block AND call for a return to broader editing restrictions. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 16:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    I too agree that the edits were in violation of the restriction. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)