Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 12:37, 19 December 2010 editArcticocean (talk \| contribs)Edit filter managers, Extended confirmed users46,266 edits →Result concerning Jalapenos do exist: To EdJohnston.← Previous edit		Revision as of 12:40, 19 December 2010 edit undoJalapenos do exist (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users7,440 edits →Interim questions Next edit →
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	# It seems that my stated concerns of ] and dishonesty in Gatoclass's accusation are supported to some extent or another by four participants in this discussion so far: Brewcrewer, BorisG, Cptnono and Epeefleche. (Original version of the accusation before being "shortened", with my response, here: .) But, as of now, I don't see any treatment of these concerns in the uninvolved admin section. I'm wondering if we can expect to see any treatment of this before the case is closed.		# It seems that my stated concerns of ] and dishonesty in Gatoclass's accusation are supported to some extent or another by four participants in this discussion so far: Brewcrewer, BorisG, Cptnono and Epeefleche. (Original version of the accusation before being "shortened", with my response, here: .) But, as of now, I don't see any treatment of these concerns in the uninvolved admin section. I'm wondering if we can expect to see any treatment of this before the case is closed.
	] (]) 20:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)		] (]) 20:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

			=====Comment on Tznkai's response=====
			To my mind, the response reflects and relies on a misunderstanding of what happened at the DYK talk page. The opposition to the hook was clearly an application of a standard that does not and could not apply to article content. Specifically, the standard that a significant view published in a reliable source should not be in a hook if it is partisan or arguably partisan. However, ] directs editors writing ''articles'' to represent ''fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, '''all''' significant views that have been published by reliable sources''. In my actions at the DYK I immediately accepted these editors' standard in practice as a matter of compromise, suggesting an alternative that was unanimously accepted, and upon reflection accepted it in principle as well. In my actions at the article I operated according to a clear and consistent principle of including all significant views on the topic of the article (that I could find online), according to ]. None of my edits to the article were contrary to any view expressed by any editor other than Gatoclass, either on the article talk page o on the DYK talk page. The question "so what did I actually do wrong?", the core of this whole affair, still stands. ] (]) 12:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

	====Statement by EdChem====		====Statement by EdChem====

Revision as of 12:40, 19 December 2010

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Captain Occam

Captain Occam's appeal is declined after being reviewed by two uninvolved administrators.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Appealing user Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Captain Occam (talk) 02:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Sanction being appealed Indefinite ban from the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Misplaced Pages, including user talk pages, with the exception of AE threads and discussions where my own editing is in question. Imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive75#Captain_Occam, logged at Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions Administrator imposing the sanction EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator Statement by Captain Occam In the thread where I ended up being sanctioned, EdJohnston initially proposed that under the discretionary sanctions authorized on race and intelligence articles, all topic bans from this case should be extended to every page on Misplaced Pages. As stated in EdJohnston’s proposal, this would have applied to all five of the editors currently topic banned from these articles: myself, David.Kane (talk · contribs), Mikemikev (talk · contribs), Mathsci (talk · contribs) and Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs). Timothy Canens commented in the thread expressing approval of this idea. Mathsci, the editor who posted the AE complaint, subsequently contacted both EdJohnston and Timothy Canens via e-mail. (Stated by Mathsci here.) Shortly after being contacted privately by Mathsci, EdJohnston modified his proposal in the AE thread to a specific sanction for only me and Ferahgo. No admins other than the two who Mathsci was privately in contact with commented on this new proposal before the thread was closed. When I brought up this sanction in EdJohnston’s user talk, EdJohnston agreed with me that it would have been inappropriate for his decision in this thread to be influenced by private correspondence with the person making the complaint, and denied that this had been the case. He also expressed uncertainty over whether it had been the best idea for him to take action against me in this thread after Mathsci had contacted him privately about this. However, EdJohnston was unwilling to tell me what other than Mathsci’s e-mails had caused him to replace his original proposal, which was a general extension of all topic bans from this case, with a specific sanction for me and Ferahgo. More importantly, even though for me and Ferahgo to be specifically sanctioned implies that we’ve done something wrong to warrant it, he was unwilling to tell me what misbehavior from me and Ferahgo we were sanctioned for. I asked him what we had done to result in this sanction four times, the first three times he responded to other aspects of my posts without answering this question, and the last time (my last comment there), in which I asked him this and nothing else, he did not reply at all. I consider there to be three problems with this decision. The first is inadequate input from the community: before being implemented, this sanction should have been discussed by some uninvolved admins other than the two who had been privately contacted by the editor making the AE complaint. The second problem is that according to Misplaced Pages:AC/DS, before being sanctioned under discretionary sanctions Ferahgo and I should have been warned that our behavior was a problem. We were not warned, and if we had been told in advance that something we were doing was problematic, we would have been willing to avoid whatever it was from that point forward. And finally, despite multiple requests in his user talk, EdJohnston has been unwilling to tell me what misbehavior on my and Ferahgo’s part this sanction was based on. As far as I know, I haven’t done anything problematic since the end of the arbitration case—of the three diffs from me in Mathsci’s AE complaint, one was telling me Maunus in his user talk that he had misquoted me on the talk page for one of these articles, and the other two are from a discussion that an arbitrator (Coren) had asked me to initiate. According to Misplaced Pages:Admin#Accountability, as well as this ruling from the Durova arbitration case, admins have a responsibility to explain the justification for the actions they take. EdJohnston has refused to do this, and as a result I still do not know what misbehavior Ferahgo and I were sanctioned for, or even whether this sanction was the result of any misbehavior from us. Since we also were not warned before receiving this sanction, as is required for discretionary sanctons, I think this sanction should be replaced with a warning for her and me to refrain from whatever behavior from us this sanction was based on, if it was based on any. Response to Vassyana The only possible enforcement whose rationale was discussed in either of those two threads was EdJohnston’s original proposal, which was to make a general extension of all of the topic bans from the R&I case. As I said in the discussion in EdJohnston’s user talk, I would not have considered it a serious problem if that had been done here, since that would not have implied specific wrondoing on anyone’s part. However, the proposal which was discussed there is not the decision which ended up being made. After he was contacted by Mathsci via e-mail, what EdJohnston decided to do was not to make a general extension of all topic bans, but to specifically sanction me and Ferahgo. Since this was a sanction directed at two specific editors, not just a general re-interpreting the outcome of the R&I case, one would assume that Ferahgo and I have done something wrong to warrant this. Ordinarily, editors do not receive individual sanctions if there has not been any problematic behavior for the sanction to be based on. But if Ferahgo and I have done anything to warrant these individual sanctions directed at us, EdJohnston has not been willing to tell us what it was. Whatever problematic behavior this sanction was based on, we also should have been warned about it behavior before being sanctioned for it. Is it clear now what my problem is here? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Response to Timothy Canens This is what Misplaced Pages:AC/DS says: "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines." The purpose of this policy is so that editors who are engaging in problematic behavior can have an opportunity to learn what they’re doing wrong and improve it. In Ferahgo’s and my case we still don’t know what behavior EdJohnston sanctioned us for, because we received no warning before being sanctioned, and when I asked EdJohnston afterwards what behavior he sanctioned us for, he was unwilling to tell me. This definitely goes against the spirit, if not also the letter, of the discretionary sanctions policy. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnston The sanction being appealed by Captain Occam is one that I issued due to a previous closure of an AE case. It is easy to search the AE archives for the topic of Race and intelligence by using this URL. There is a precedent for Arbcom getting more strict regarding topic-banned editors engaging in process discussions if you check their recent opinions regarding WP:ARBCC. This suggests that they want people who are under a topic ban to let the issue go, and not continue to press their views in forums like RFC/U. See for instance Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/WeijiBaikeBianji. In that RfC you can see opinions being expressed by Captain Occam, Ferahgo the Assassin, and Mathsci. Now Mathsci is on the point of having his topic ban lifted by Arbcom so I did not think that it was important to extend the process sanction to include him. In my thinking, the sanction was only intended to apply to specific editors who were already topic banned. If Arbcom does not lift Mathsci's topic ban, and if there are further problems on R&I regarding him, then the issue on him participating in process discussions should be revisited. EdJohnston (talk) 19:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Timotheus Canens Mathsci's emails had no influence whatsoever on the comment I made. They relate only peripherally to Occam, and while they did list a number of diffs apparently related to FtA, I did not look at, and to my best knowledge have never looked at, the contents of said diffs. T. Canens (talk) 05:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Also, users sanctioned by name in a decision do not, as far as I am aware, require a separate warning before discretionary sanctions can be imposed under the provisions of the same case. Surely the sanction itself and the associated finding are more than enough to alert the user that there are serious problems with their editing? T. Canens (talk) 05:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC) The case clerk's notification that the case has been closed and you have been topic banned is ample warning. T. Canens (talk) 05:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Mathsci Vassayana informed me of this appeal by Captain Occam, of which I was aware. He requested that I comment, although I prefer not to at this stage, I might make more detailed comments at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment at some later date. About emails: there are matters that cannot be discussed on wikipedia, where real life identities are concerned. That is the case here and ArbCom is fully aware of the issues. No information of any relevance to AE was passed on to either Timotheus Canens or EdJohnston. About my recent block: it was lifted as soon as Georgewilliamherbert resumed editing on wikipedia, following comments by other administrators. I understand the other editor is still blocked. I don't see any relation that has to this appeal or to a possible lifting of my topic ban. Other users have lobbied for me not to be unblocked or for my topic ban not to be lifted. About cronyism: I do admit to liking Roger Davies. Is there something wrong with that? Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin EdJohnston, I appreciate your finally explaining this. From my understanding of your comment, you didn't intend to sanction me and Occam for specific misbehavior, but only sought to extend the topic bans from the R&I case in general. Mathsci is therefore excluded only because he's likely to have his topic ban lifted anyway. It'd be helpful if you could clarify whether my interpretation of this is correct. Vassyana and possibly others seem to be under the impression that that there was some specific misbehavior from myself and Occam that warranted the sanction, but based on what you’ve said that doesn’t seem to be the case. Even if this is right, though, it still amounts to two editors being sanctioned without any specific behavior that it’s based on, and no warning either. Whatever the thinking behind this sanction may have been, it still needs to be determined whether the outcome is consistent with policy. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC) I notice that Mathsci has just been blocked for 48 hours because of edit warring, which is one of the behaviors for which he was topic banned in the original case. Yet the arbitrators are still voting for his topic ban to be lifted, while he's blocked. Does anyone else find it strange that this is considered fine, while Occam and I are the ones receiving additional sanctions? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 03:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Response to Aprock I don't think it's fair to compare Mathsci's editing behavior to only Occam's. Occam and are covered by the same sanction (most likely due to WP:SHARE), so his behavior should be compared to both of ours. I don't think I've ever caused anywhere close to the same level of disruption that Occam did before the arbitration case. I've never edit warred, I've never been an SPA (as should be evident from my editing history), and I've only been blocked once, for accidentally violating my topic ban on Henry Fairfield Osborn, which I acknowledge was a mistake and won't be repeated. Like Occam, I find it difficult to contribute to articles while this drama is going on, but until the past few weeks I’ve been fairly active on Misplaced Pages and put a lot of effort into contributing to articles as well. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by VsevolodKrolikov I was also notified by Vassyana, so I'm guessing that makes me involved. I can find no difference in behavioral issues between Captain Occam and MathSci that merits this different treatment. EdJohnston refers to the RFC triggering matters: MathSci actually emailed me a few days before the RFC opened, warning me of the possibility of meatpuppetry on the part of Captain Occam and Ferahgo and that ARBCOM was concerned (as he did not notify me on my talkpage for almost two weeks, I didn't read the email till much later). As I have stated before, this emailing of people off-wiki (and also with no public notification that communication has taken place) for me raises concerns about transparency, and it seems just as much an interference in process in the topic as Captain Occam's. I therefore find the difference in treatment difficult to understand. I also don't follow EdJohnston's reasoning that if a ban is probably going to be lifted in the near future, violations of it now are not important. We'd surely be wanting exemplary behaviour in the run up to an early removal. I'd rather have seen both stay topic banned. I think Ludwigs2 is right in saying that neither has really let go.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Captain Occam This is a very disturbing development in this long running matter. I expect the sanctioning admin to provide a clear explanation of his actions. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC). The admin has now provided his reasons. I find them to be thin and insuffcient to justify such a severe action. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC). I don't know about 'very disturbing', but this does seem to be warped even by wikipedia standards. If I can summarize what seems to have happened here: Occam (who self-evidently and self-admittedly has difficulty letting this issue go) seems to be overtly guilty of nothing more than talking to other editors about R&I issues - Note that all of Mathsci's original AE diffs point to user talk pages Mathsci (who self-evidently has difficulty letting go of the conflict), has obviously been hunting for anything that could be used as leverage against Occam, and (in a style that is nauseatingly familiar to anyone involved in the original arbitration) has seized on some minor indiscretions by Occam and inflated them - via a generous application of wp:weasel words and significant confabulation - into some sort of massive, evil subterfuge that must be stopped. EdJohnston (whom I have noticed in at least one different context has a tendency to take strong actions on weak rationales), bought into Mathsci's conspiracy theory and acted on it as though it could be taken at face value. I don't necessarily fault him for the action he took, but I do question how deeply he looked into the issue before he acted. Frankly this whole debacle is like watching two street-corner crazies battling over which of their imagined world-destroying conspiracy theories is 'true' by trying to convince passers-by that the other guy is actually part of the conspiracy. Mathsci is a bit more credible as a rule, and here - through sheer persistence and practical statistics - he managed to hook himself a fish (yeah, sooner or later someone gullible was going to walk by and not see the crazy-talk for what it is). There's no 'win' side to this that I can see, and the only real loser is the project, because this tends to legitimize paranoid fantasy as actuality and only guarantees that we will see a lot more paranoid fantasy in the future. As I said, warped. --Ludwigs2 14:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Since Captain Occam topic ban was effected, the user has consistently managed to find a way to be involved in related controversies. The topic ban was meant to reduce the drama but it appears that Captain Occam is never far from some sort of drama. Pardon the editcountitis, according to Occam's edit count, the user's pattern of contributions is still pretty much the same as it was before the Arbcom case. Occam spends very little time on content contribution, at present only 13%. The bulk of his time seems to be spent on these endless battles on the Misplaced Pages namespace or canvassing other users for support. Judging by previous trends, I am struggling to foresee a situation in which Captain Occam is not involved in any drama in the future, or where Captain Occam is peacefully contributing to the encyclopedia and a broad range of readers or editors appreciate his work. For this reason, I would suggest that rather than consider Occam's appeal, it might just be a good idea to consider ending much of this drama once and for all by putting a sitewide ban on the table. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC) It does not seem fair to me to extend a block indefinitely based on such a meager amount of (possible) wrong doing. Muntuwandi's repeated accusations that Occam and Ferahgo have circumvented their topic ban have not been backed by any convincing evidence. Neither are they this time. Furthermore I am worried by the fact that an admin can even think of using tools while refusing against a user without wanting to explain his reasons for doing so to the affected user. This is clearly not the way it sanctions are supposed to work in an opoen community. I also concur with Ludwigs sentiment that this is becoming more and more like watching absurd theatre. I would reverse the topicban extension to the original one year for all parts and extend a warning to all parts to keep their noses out of eachothers business as well as from the topic area they are banned from. ·Maunus·ƛ· 04:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC) The community has spoken several times on AN/I, expressing its fervent desire that this particular conflict be shut down for good, and urging that administrators use the powers given them by ArbCom to do so. I see the action here as being nothing more than an admin carrying out the will of the community. Mathsci's role has been primarily to bring issues thaqt need to be dealt with to the attention of ArbCom & admins – something that a number of arbitrators have acknowledged – and his actions are in no respect equivalent to those of Captain Occam & Ferragho the Assasin, who seemingly are incable of simply letting it go. I urge uninvolved admins not to fall for this false equivalency, and to affirm the restrictions under discussion here as a necessary means to an end the community has specifically called for. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC) BMK: "Mathsci's role has been primarily to bring issues that need to be dealt with to the attention of ArbCom & admins" - in other words, you feel that Mathsci's wikihounding and (dare I say paranoid) reconstructions of reality are justified? sorry, as far as I'm concerned Mathsci and Occam are two peas in a pod - if you took away their sigs I'd have a hard time telling them apart. The only real difference is that Mathsci has somehow managed to develop a name for himself; seriously, if an IP or new account tried even a tenth of the crap that Mathsci gets away with it would be indef-blocked as fast as the nearest admin could move her mouse. I can't respect an 'ends-justifies the means' attitude, and I can't respect a dual-teir justice system (where 'good' editors can behave worse than 'bad' editors and get approval for it), so there is simply nothing to respect in the argument you just gave. care to try another? --Ludwigs2 17:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC) If Mathsci's committment to avoid this topic is absolutely true, there is no reason for him to be requesting enforcement, participating in relevant dispute resolution or being involved in the administrative matters. AC gets it wrong sometimes as well; that AC were considering lifting his restriction altogether does not mean that everything was above board. The fact that Mathsci is currently blocked for similar behavior that was identified in the arb case is somewhat troubling. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC) At the highest level, it's certainly true that the negative aspects of Captain Occam's editing behavior and Mathsci's editing behavior are similar. But the details tend to be very different. Part of the problem with this case has been the ongoing problems of puppetry, lobbying, cabals, canvassing, and SPAs. The distinction between the two editors becomes even clearer when one compares the positive aspects of their editing behavior. In this regard there is no comparison. I suspect that this is why there is such a wide disconnect between the sanctions. aprock (talk) 17:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Actually, I agree. I just reject the notion that we need to condone Mathsci's bad behavior in order to retain his good behavior. He is obviously firmly committed to the project, he is obviously a very capable editor, but he needs to stop with the uber-aggressive, ever-escalating attack style that he habitually uses. I get tired of hearing the "Yeah, that was a shitty thing to do, but look what he did over there" defense; If he can do it over there, he can do it here, too, so that's no excuse. I mean, this applies to me as well as to him - I can be a hard-nosed son-of-a-biatch when I get my goat up - but I generally have the common sense to step back and tone it down when I get too hot under the collar. If Mathsci did the same it would make a world of difference in my attitude towards him. I think there may be issues with Occam, yes. Ideally, I want to be able to see what those issues actually are without having to dig the truth out of the kind of hyperbolic misrepresentation of semi-imaginary conspiracies that Mathsci offers. --Ludwigs2 18:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Captain Occam This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I am contacting the involved editors to comment here. It seems to me that the rationales and circumstances are well-detailed at the following two locations: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive75#Captain_Occam and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_WP:ARBR.26I.2Fscope_of_topic_ban_of_Mathsci. Do you have a specific question regarding it? Vassyana (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC) From my perspective reading over the material linked above, I really don't understand what is confusing. I get the clear message that admins were saying "enough is enough" and did what they thought would nip the problem in the bud. The decision clearly indicates why two editors were left out. The context regarding MathSci is also included in the links I provided. It seems very clear that Captain Occam was continuing conflicts by working around restrictions and that was the basis of the sanction. Captain Occam's refusal to acknowledge the conduct and heavy emphasis on tu quoque arguments leaves me disinclined to second guess the sanction. Vassyana (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC) As I see it, Captain Occam It seems that the sanction was designed to fortify the initial ruling ("Occam is topic-banned from race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed"). That Occam had been on the fringes of that initial ruling apparently warranted a stronger sanction which explicitly expanded upon "broadly construed", since the initial sanction apparently hadn't stopped the drama. I'm also disinclined to second-guess the sanction. Xavexgoem (talk) 03:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Note: I mediated this case briefly, before it hit ArbCom. That was content-oriented, and I don't remember the personalities well. Make of that what you will. Re to Ferahgo the Assassin: yes, this is bothersome. ~~So is MathSci's tendency to initiate administrative threads without informing those involved.~~ (edit: may have happened just once) I get the sense that the current sanction against Occam is unbalanced vis-a-vis MathSci, since that bad blood runs both ways (mid stream, one bird, two stones, and other mixed metaphors and cliches). Xavexgoem (talk) 03:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Er... ArbCom just voted to lift Mathsci's topic ban, presumably in part because he's agreed not to edit race/intelligence pages any further. In that light, I'm not sure how you would propose balancing the sanctions. Captain Occam could likewise appeal to ArbCom, but given that he (and the related account Ferahgo the Assassin) have consistently danced around the edges of their existing topic bans, I would be somewhat surprised if they were successful. If you have one editor who insists on pushing the boundaries of his topic ban, and another who's voiced a clear intent to respect it, then I don't think it's "balanced" to expect or apply the same sanction to both. MastCell 18:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Captain Occam's appeal is declined after being reviewed by two uninvolved administrators.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Captain Occam (talk) 02:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Indefinite ban from the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Misplaced Pages, including user talk pages, with the exception of AE threads and discussions where my own editing is in question. Imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive75#Captain_Occam, logged at Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions

Administrator imposing the sanction: EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Captain Occam

In the thread where I ended up being sanctioned, EdJohnston initially proposed that under the discretionary sanctions authorized on race and intelligence articles, all topic bans from this case should be extended to every page on Misplaced Pages. As stated in EdJohnston’s proposal, this would have applied to all five of the editors currently topic banned from these articles: myself, David.Kane (talk · contribs), Mikemikev (talk · contribs), Mathsci (talk · contribs) and Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs). Timothy Canens commented in the thread expressing approval of this idea. Mathsci, the editor who posted the AE complaint, subsequently contacted both EdJohnston and Timothy Canens via e-mail. (Stated by Mathsci here.) Shortly after being contacted privately by Mathsci, EdJohnston modified his proposal in the AE thread to a specific sanction for only me and Ferahgo. No admins other than the two who Mathsci was privately in contact with commented on this new proposal before the thread was closed.

When I brought up this sanction in EdJohnston’s user talk, EdJohnston agreed with me that it would have been inappropriate for his decision in this thread to be influenced by private correspondence with the person making the complaint, and denied that this had been the case. He also expressed uncertainty over whether it had been the best idea for him to take action against me in this thread after Mathsci had contacted him privately about this. However, EdJohnston was unwilling to tell me what other than Mathsci’s e-mails had caused him to replace his original proposal, which was a general extension of all topic bans from this case, with a specific sanction for me and Ferahgo. More importantly, even though for me and Ferahgo to be specifically sanctioned implies that we’ve done something wrong to warrant it, he was unwilling to tell me what misbehavior from me and Ferahgo we were sanctioned for. I asked him what we had done to result in this sanction four times, the first three times he responded to other aspects of my posts without answering this question, and the last time (my last comment there), in which I asked him this and nothing else, he did not reply at all.

I consider there to be three problems with this decision. The first is inadequate input from the community: before being implemented, this sanction should have been discussed by some uninvolved admins other than the two who had been privately contacted by the editor making the AE complaint. The second problem is that according to Misplaced Pages:AC/DS, before being sanctioned under discretionary sanctions Ferahgo and I should have been warned that our behavior was a problem. We were not warned, and if we had been told in advance that something we were doing was problematic, we would have been willing to avoid whatever it was from that point forward. And finally, despite multiple requests in his user talk, EdJohnston has been unwilling to tell me what misbehavior on my and Ferahgo’s part this sanction was based on. As far as I know, I haven’t done anything problematic since the end of the arbitration case—of the three diffs from me in Mathsci’s AE complaint, one was telling me Maunus in his user talk that he had misquoted me on the talk page for one of these articles, and the other two are from a discussion that an arbitrator (Coren) had asked me to initiate.

According to Misplaced Pages:Admin#Accountability, as well as this ruling from the Durova arbitration case, admins have a responsibility to explain the justification for the actions they take. EdJohnston has refused to do this, and as a result I still do not know what misbehavior Ferahgo and I were sanctioned for, or even whether this sanction was the result of any misbehavior from us. Since we also were not warned before receiving this sanction, as is required for discretionary sanctons, I think this sanction should be replaced with a warning for her and me to refrain from whatever behavior from us this sanction was based on, if it was based on any.

Response to Vassyana

The only possible enforcement whose rationale was discussed in either of those two threads was EdJohnston’s original proposal, which was to make a general extension of all of the topic bans from the R&I case. As I said in the discussion in EdJohnston’s user talk, I would not have considered it a serious problem if that had been done here, since that would not have implied specific wrondoing on anyone’s part. However, the proposal which was discussed there is not the decision which ended up being made. After he was contacted by Mathsci via e-mail, what EdJohnston decided to do was not to make a general extension of all topic bans, but to specifically sanction me and Ferahgo.

Since this was a sanction directed at two specific editors, not just a general re-interpreting the outcome of the R&I case, one would assume that Ferahgo and I have done something wrong to warrant this. Ordinarily, editors do not receive individual sanctions if there has not been any problematic behavior for the sanction to be based on. But if Ferahgo and I have done anything to warrant these individual sanctions directed at us, EdJohnston has not been willing to tell us what it was. Whatever problematic behavior this sanction was based on, we also should have been warned about it behavior before being sanctioned for it. Is it clear now what my problem is here? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Timothy Canens

This is what Misplaced Pages:AC/DS says:

"Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines."

The purpose of this policy is so that editors who are engaging in problematic behavior can have an opportunity to learn what they’re doing wrong and improve it. In Ferahgo’s and my case we still don’t know what behavior EdJohnston sanctioned us for, because we received no warning before being sanctioned, and when I asked EdJohnston afterwards what behavior he sanctioned us for, he was unwilling to tell me. This definitely goes against the spirit, if not also the letter, of the discretionary sanctions policy. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

The sanction being appealed by Captain Occam is one that I issued due to a previous closure of an AE case. It is easy to search the AE archives for the topic of Race and intelligence by using this URL. There is a precedent for Arbcom getting more strict regarding topic-banned editors engaging in process discussions if you check their recent opinions regarding WP:ARBCC. This suggests that they want people who are under a topic ban to let the issue go, and not continue to press their views in forums like RFC/U. See for instance Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/WeijiBaikeBianji. In that RfC you can see opinions being expressed by Captain Occam, Ferahgo the Assassin, and Mathsci. Now Mathsci is on the point of having his topic ban lifted by Arbcom so I did not think that it was important to extend the process sanction to include him. In my thinking, the sanction was only intended to apply to specific editors who were already topic banned. If Arbcom does not lift Mathsci's topic ban, and if there are further problems on R&I regarding him, then the issue on him participating in process discussions should be revisited. EdJohnston (talk) 19:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

Mathsci's emails had no influence whatsoever on the comment I made. They relate only peripherally to Occam, and while they did list a number of diffs apparently related to FtA, I did not look at, and to my best knowledge have never looked at, the contents of said diffs. T. Canens (talk) 05:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Also, users sanctioned by name in a decision do not, as far as I am aware, require a separate warning before discretionary sanctions can be imposed under the provisions of the same case. Surely the sanction itself and the associated finding are more than enough to alert the user that there are serious problems with their editing? T. Canens (talk) 05:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- The case clerk's notification that the case has been closed and you have been topic banned is ample warning. T. Canens (talk) 05:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Mathsci

Vassayana informed me of this appeal by Captain Occam, of which I was aware. He requested that I comment, although I prefer not to at this stage, I might make more detailed comments at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment at some later date.

About emails: there are matters that cannot be discussed on wikipedia, where real life identities are concerned. That is the case here and ArbCom is fully aware of the issues. No information of any relevance to AE was passed on to either Timotheus Canens or EdJohnston.

About my recent block: it was lifted as soon as Georgewilliamherbert resumed editing on wikipedia, following comments by other administrators. I understand the other editor is still blocked. I don't see any relation that has to this appeal or to a possible lifting of my topic ban. Other users have lobbied for me not to be unblocked or for my topic ban not to be lifted.

About cronyism: I do admit to liking Roger Davies. Is there something wrong with that?

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

EdJohnston, I appreciate your finally explaining this. From my understanding of your comment, you didn't intend to sanction me and Occam for specific misbehavior, but only sought to extend the topic bans from the R&I case in general. Mathsci is therefore excluded only because he's likely to have his topic ban lifted anyway. It'd be helpful if you could clarify whether my interpretation of this is correct. Vassyana and possibly others seem to be under the impression that that there was some specific misbehavior from myself and Occam that warranted the sanction, but based on what you’ve said that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Even if this is right, though, it still amounts to two editors being sanctioned without any specific behavior that it’s based on, and no warning either. Whatever the thinking behind this sanction may have been, it still needs to be determined whether the outcome is consistent with policy. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I notice that Mathsci has just been blocked for 48 hours because of edit warring, which is one of the behaviors for which he was topic banned in the original case. Yet the arbitrators are still voting for his topic ban to be lifted, while he's blocked. Does anyone else find it strange that this is considered fine, while Occam and I are the ones receiving additional sanctions? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 03:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Aprock

I don't think it's fair to compare Mathsci's editing behavior to only Occam's. Occam and are covered by the same sanction (most likely due to WP:SHARE), so his behavior should be compared to both of ours. I don't think I've ever caused anywhere close to the same level of disruption that Occam did before the arbitration case. I've never edit warred, I've never been an SPA (as should be evident from my editing history), and I've only been blocked once, for accidentally violating my topic ban on Henry Fairfield Osborn, which I acknowledge was a mistake and won't be repeated. Like Occam, I find it difficult to contribute to articles while this drama is going on, but until the past few weeks I’ve been fairly active on Misplaced Pages and put a lot of effort into contributing to articles as well. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by VsevolodKrolikov

I was also notified by Vassyana, so I'm guessing that makes me involved. I can find no difference in behavioral issues between Captain Occam and MathSci that merits this different treatment. EdJohnston refers to the RFC triggering matters: MathSci actually emailed me a few days before the RFC opened, warning me of the possibility of meatpuppetry on the part of Captain Occam and Ferahgo and that ARBCOM was concerned (as he did not notify me on my talkpage for almost two weeks, I didn't read the email till much later). As I have stated before, this emailing of people off-wiki (and also with no public notification that communication has taken place) for me raises concerns about transparency, and it seems just as much an interference in process in the topic as Captain Occam's. I therefore find the difference in treatment difficult to understand. I also don't follow EdJohnston's reasoning that if a ban is probably going to be lifted in the near future, violations of it now are not important. We'd surely be wanting exemplary behaviour in the run up to an early removal. I'd rather have seen both stay topic banned. I think Ludwigs2 is right in saying that neither has really let go.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Captain Occam

This is a very disturbing development in this long running matter. I expect the sanctioning admin to provide a clear explanation of his actions. Xxanthippe (talk) 10:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC).

The admin has now provided his reasons. I find them to be thin and insuffcient to justify such a severe action. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC).

I don't know about 'very disturbing', but this does seem to be warped even by wikipedia standards. If I can summarize what seems to have happened here:

Occam (who self-evidently and self-admittedly has difficulty letting this issue go) seems to be overtly guilty of nothing more than talking to other editors about R&I issues - Note that all of Mathsci's original AE diffs point to user talk pages
Mathsci (who self-evidently has difficulty letting go of the conflict), has obviously been hunting for anything that could be used as leverage against Occam, and (in a style that is nauseatingly familiar to anyone involved in the original arbitration) has seized on some minor indiscretions by Occam and inflated them - via a generous application of wp:weasel words and significant confabulation - into some sort of massive, evil subterfuge that must be stopped.
EdJohnston (whom I have noticed in at least one different context has a tendency to take strong actions on weak rationales), bought into Mathsci's conspiracy theory and acted on it as though it could be taken at face value. I don't necessarily fault him for the action he took, but I do question how deeply he looked into the issue before he acted.

Frankly this whole debacle is like watching two street-corner crazies battling over which of their imagined world-destroying conspiracy theories is 'true' by trying to convince passers-by that the other guy is actually part of the conspiracy. Mathsci is a bit more credible as a rule, and here - through sheer persistence and practical statistics - he managed to hook himself a fish (yeah, sooner or later someone gullible was going to walk by and not see the crazy-talk for what it is). There's no 'win' side to this that I can see, and the only real loser is the project, because this tends to legitimize paranoid fantasy as actuality and only guarantees that we will see a lot more paranoid fantasy in the future. As I said, warped. --Ludwigs2 14:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Since Captain Occam topic ban was effected, the user has consistently managed to find a way to be involved in related controversies. The topic ban was meant to reduce the drama but it appears that Captain Occam is never far from some sort of drama. Pardon the editcountitis, according to Occam's edit count, the user's pattern of contributions is still pretty much the same as it was before the Arbcom case. Occam spends very little time on content contribution, at present only 13%. The bulk of his time seems to be spent on these endless battles on the Misplaced Pages namespace or canvassing other users for support. Judging by previous trends, I am struggling to foresee a situation in which Captain Occam is not involved in any drama in the future, or where Captain Occam is peacefully contributing to the encyclopedia and a broad range of readers or editors appreciate his work. For this reason, I would suggest that rather than consider Occam's appeal, it might just be a good idea to consider ending much of this drama once and for all by putting a sitewide ban on the table. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

It does not seem fair to me to extend a block indefinitely based on such a meager amount of (possible) wrong doing. Muntuwandi's repeated accusations that Occam and Ferahgo have circumvented their topic ban have not been backed by any convincing evidence. Neither are they this time. Furthermore I am worried by the fact that an admin can even think of using tools while refusing against a user without wanting to explain his reasons for doing so to the affected user. This is clearly not the way it sanctions are supposed to work in an opoen community. I also concur with Ludwigs sentiment that this is becoming more and more like watching absurd theatre. I would reverse the topicban extension to the original one year for all parts and extend a warning to all parts to keep their noses out of eachothers business as well as from the topic area they are banned from. ·Maunus·ƛ· 04:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- The community has spoken several times on AN/I, expressing its fervent desire that this particular conflict be shut down for good, and urging that administrators use the powers given them by ArbCom to do so. I see the action here as being nothing more than an admin carrying out the will of the community. Mathsci's role has been primarily to bring issues thaqt need to be dealt with to the attention of ArbCom & admins – something that a number of arbitrators have acknowledged – and his actions are in no respect equivalent to those of Captain Occam & Ferragho the Assasin, who seemingly are incable of simply letting it go. I urge uninvolved admins not to fall for this false equivalency, and to affirm the restrictions under discussion here as a necessary means to an end the community has specifically called for. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  - BMK: "Mathsci's role has been primarily to bring issues that need to be dealt with to the attention of ArbCom & admins" - in other words, you feel that Mathsci's wikihounding and (dare I say paranoid) reconstructions of reality are justified? sorry, as far as I'm concerned Mathsci and Occam are two peas in a pod - if you took away their sigs I'd have a hard time telling them apart. The only real difference is that Mathsci has somehow managed to develop a name for himself; seriously, if an IP or new account tried even a tenth of the crap that Mathsci gets away with it would be indef-blocked as fast as the nearest admin could move her mouse. I can't respect an 'ends-justifies the means' attitude, and I can't respect a dual-teir justice system (where 'good' editors can behave worse than 'bad' editors and get approval for it), so there is simply nothing to respect in the argument you just gave. care to try another? --Ludwigs2 17:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
If Mathsci's committment to avoid this topic is absolutely true, there is no reason for him to be requesting enforcement, participating in relevant dispute resolution or being involved in the administrative matters. AC gets it wrong sometimes as well; that AC were considering lifting his restriction altogether does not mean that everything was above board. The fact that Mathsci is currently blocked for similar behavior that was identified in the arb case is somewhat troubling. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
At the highest level, it's certainly true that the negative aspects of Captain Occam's editing behavior and Mathsci's editing behavior are similar. But the details tend to be very different. Part of the problem with this case has been the ongoing problems of puppetry, lobbying, cabals, canvassing, and SPAs. The distinction between the two editors becomes even clearer when one compares the positive aspects of their editing behavior. In this regard there is no comparison. I suspect that this is why there is such a wide disconnect between the sanctions. aprock (talk) 17:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I agree. I just reject the notion that we need to condone Mathsci's bad behavior in order to retain his good behavior. He is obviously firmly committed to the project, he is obviously a very capable editor, but he needs to stop with the uber-aggressive, ever-escalating attack style that he habitually uses. I get tired of hearing the "Yeah, that was a shitty thing to do, but look what he did over there" defense; If he can do it over there, he can do it here, too, so that's no excuse. I mean, this applies to me as well as to him - I can be a hard-nosed son-of-a-biatch when I get my goat up - but I generally have the common sense to step back and tone it down when I get too hot under the collar. If Mathsci did the same it would make a world of difference in my attitude towards him.

I think there may be issues with Occam, yes. Ideally, I want to be able to see what those issues actually are without having to dig the truth out of the kind of hyperbolic misrepresentation of semi-imaginary conspiracies that Mathsci offers. --Ludwigs2 18:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Captain Occam

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I am contacting the involved editors to comment here. It seems to me that the rationales and circumstances are well-detailed at the following two locations: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive75#Captain_Occam and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_WP:ARBR.26I.2Fscope_of_topic_ban_of_Mathsci. Do you have a specific question regarding it? Vassyana (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

From my perspective reading over the material linked above, I really don't understand what is confusing. I get the clear message that admins were saying "enough is enough" and did what they thought would nip the problem in the bud. The decision clearly indicates why two editors were left out. The context regarding MathSci is also included in the links I provided.

It seems very clear that Captain Occam was continuing conflicts by working around restrictions and that was the basis of the sanction. Captain Occam's refusal to acknowledge the conduct and heavy emphasis on tu quoque arguments leaves me disinclined to second guess the sanction. Vassyana (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

As I see it, Captain Occam

It seems that the sanction was designed to fortify the initial ruling ("Occam is topic-banned from race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed"). That Occam had been on the fringes of that initial ruling apparently warranted a stronger sanction which explicitly expanded upon "broadly construed", since the initial sanction apparently hadn't stopped the drama. I'm also disinclined to second-guess the sanction. Xavexgoem (talk) 03:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Note: I mediated this case briefly, before it hit ArbCom. That was content-oriented, and I don't remember the personalities well. Make of that what you will.
- Re to Ferahgo the Assassin: yes, this is bothersome. ~~So is MathSci's tendency to initiate administrative threads without informing those involved.~~ (edit: may have happened just once) I get the sense that the current sanction against Occam is unbalanced vis-a-vis MathSci, since that bad blood runs both ways (mid stream, one bird, two stones, and other mixed metaphors and cliches). Xavexgoem (talk) 03:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  - Er... ArbCom just voted to lift Mathsci's topic ban, presumably in part because he's agreed not to edit race/intelligence pages any further. In that light, I'm not sure how you would propose balancing the sanctions. Captain Occam could likewise appeal to ArbCom, but given that he (and the related account Ferahgo the Assassin) have consistently danced around the edges of their existing topic bans, I would be somewhat surprised if they were successful. If you have one editor who insists on pushing the boundaries of his topic ban, and another who's voiced a clear intent to respect it, then I don't think it's "balanced" to expect or apply the same sanction to both. MastCell 18:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dojarca

Dojarca blocked for 2 weeks and topic banned for one year after socking was discovered, rendering this appeal moot.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Dojarca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Dojarca (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Sanction being appealed Dojarca is prohibited from commencing or participating in dispute resolution or enforcement processes (including arbitration enforcement) relating to user conduct within the area of conflict (as defined by WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions) for a period of two months, save for processes concerning his or her own conduct. To avoid doubt, "commencing or participating in" includes doing so by proxy. Administrator imposing the sanction Mkativerata (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator He watches this page, so possibly, no need to notify him. Statement by Dojarca The ArbCom remedy reads as follows: Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The following requirements for the remedy did not met: - I did not repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process That is what I did here and elsewhere in Misplaced Pages was in line with Misplaced Pages's policy and if even I made any mistakes somewhere, I ceased any incorrect behavior upon notification. A first notification was always sufficient. If I was somewhere involved in repeated and serious disruptive behavior, please point to such instances. - I was not warned before applying the remedy. Of course, I knew about that ArbCom case and the enacted sanctions because I participated in it. On the other hand, I was not warned about any related to this AE request incorrect behavior from my side. It is obvious that the warning requirement is essential to give a user possibility to cease any wrong behavior before the sanctions and only in the case the user ignores such warnings (i.e. "dispite" them) continues wrong conduct he shall be sanctioned. It is evident also that the warning requirement allows the administrator to formalize what behavior he considers against the rules and what he requires from the user. Since I was not warned, I had no idea of whether I break the rules and how could I improve my doings. Just the fact of my participation in the arbcom case does not allow any administrator to impose any sanction against me without preceding warning. The sanction enacted by Mkativerata not only does not me allow to request for enforcement of ArbCom decisions about the case with which I am familiar and involved, but also prevents me from communicating with uncivil users in the course or normal process, including reporting such basic violations of the rules as 3RR and personal attacks, placing me in a dependence of whether it would be spotted by a random administrator. Henceforward anybode can insult me and I have no right to complain. Statement by Mkativerata Noting that I am aware of the appeal. I have no statement to make, feeling my (and other admins') comments in the original AE speak for themselves. I will probably not comment here unless (a) I'm asked a direct question by an uninvolved administrator; or (b) I feel I'm being misrepresented.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC) @Ncmvocalist: I did not. I considered that Dojarca's involvement in the Offliner/Piotrus AE (and offer to act as Offliner's proxy in future AEs) made him sufficiently aware of the dangers of lodging battleground AEs. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC) The diff is here. Offliner was on notice of DIGWUREN sanctions. I considered that sufficient warning. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'd be interested to hear Dojarca's explanation for the socking - as Fut.Perf. alludes to, the editing pattern is a little unconventional. But of course that he/she was using multiple accounts to lodge AEs in recent weeks is grounds enough to act. We can't allow sockpuppeteers to infect topic areas like this. My impression from this appeal has only firmed my confidence in the original sanction: language such as my "right" to take someone to AE and other noticeboard reflects an attitude unconducive to productive involvement in disputes. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Comment by Dojarca The diff provided is obviously not a diff for Mkativerata's warning, but a diff of my post. The fact that you put this diff here suggests that you thought I proxied for Offliner which is not the case. If I proxied for Offliner I would say so or at least say that Offliner provided the diffs, but I evaluated the significance of the evidence myself or something similar. Regarding that you consider enforcing ArbCom rulings a battleground behavior. If enforcing ArbCom decision is a battleground, then why the decision itself is not battleground? Maybe we should accuse ArbCom in battleground behavior against the respected EEML group? What can you say about the Offliner's request regarding Martintg? Was it also a "battleground AE"? Which further AE against EEML will be considered battleground? Should all editors who posted here now be considered "warned" and blame themselves if punished following an AE against EEML? Dojarca (talk) 08:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Statement (not really more like a puzzlement) by Volunteer Marek Ummmm.... why is that next to last statement , using a first person singular, as in referring to Dojarca, signed by User:MathFacts? Am I missing something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Looks like naughtiness. I've blocked and launched an SPI at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca to determine the nature of the puppetry more exactly. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC) As much as an SPI appears to be proper (no comment on the length of the block) here, I strongly object to Deacon using his administrative tools in this matter. He simply is too involved, as found on this board before and as evidenced by his frequent participation in EE-topics related dispute resolution (I'm actually quite amazed that he can state "(I) don't consider myself involved" with a straight face). There's plenty of truly uninvolved admins who are perfectly capable of acting here and in EE-topic related matters in general. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I think he must be unblocked and have an opportunity to respond at this page and in sockpuppet investigation. Biophys (talk) 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC) @Timotheus Canens - it might be noteworthy that the MathFacts account was used as recently as two weeks ago to file another spurious AE request against User:Lvivske: . Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I guess this explains why during EEML ArbCom case evil mailing list members were begging everybody involved to be checkusered, but the glorious and indisputably honest "content opponents" flatly refused en masse. Dojarca, Loosemark, Altenmann... I am pretty sure there are more socks and at least one (but probably two) group accounts among the "content opponents". --Sander Säde 09:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Yes, sure. If everyone who vote in Arbcom elections is checkusered, then why not checkuser everyone who appears in the list of logs and bans? This is a significant part of long-standing problems in the area. Biophys (talk) 17:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Request for clarification from Petri and others Wait! So I can create various alternate accounts (calling them "sockpuppets" would be a personal attack!!!) for my various activities here on Misplaced Pages and that's all alright? I can have one account for my Poland related topics, one for my Economics related topics (maybe a separate one for Economics of Poland topics), one for Mexican history topics, one for commenting over at AN/I, one for bringing articles to AfD I don't like, one for voting in ArbCom elections, one for reverting User:Bob (I don't think there really is a User:Bob, but if there is, no offense, Bob), and one for filing spurious requests at Arbitration/Requests/Enforcements? That's all legitimate? Crap! Why didn't anyone tell me? I'll get crackin'... Of course I'm joking. Seriously. Anyone stop and ask "what the hey did Dojarca need that second account for except for the purposes of disruptive battleground behavior"? The apparent intention of some folks here to fall over themselves in trying to come up with some kind of excuse for the guy - especially since in other cases they were quite happy to swing the ban hammer swiftly and heavily, is a bit worrisome. And that's not even addressing Deacon's light weight, "damage control" two week block after he supported Dojarca. Sometimes AE makes my head spin. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) @Petri: For editing mathematics related articles without harassment form members of the EEML group. I believe Dojarca was high up in the "enemies list". - that's complete nonsense on so many levels: He did not just use the account for mathematics related articles. He used it to file battleground AE requests. He was never harassed by anyone from EEML. If you gonna allege harassment please provide evidence. Otherwise this is just a personal attack. In fact, in light of first point, the situation's quite reverse - he used the account to harass various editors via spurious requests rather than vice versa. Dojarca wasn't on any "enemy list" because there wasn't one. In fact I don't think he was ever even mentioned on the list. Don't make stuff up. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC) ... unless he's got some other account that you're referring to that we're unaware of, that may have been mentioned on the list. If so, time to fess it up. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Responses by Peri Krohn Response to Fut.Perf. Please have a closer look! In fact, the evidence shows that Dojarca has done exactly the right thing in using his two accounts. Dojarca (talk · contribs) was involved in controversial political topics which ultimately resulted in the WP:EEML arbcom case. Dojarca withdrew from editing on 17 February 2010 and his few edits after that have been directly linked to the EEML case. These include opening Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denial of the Holodomor and making an EEML related argument, reverting a move of Occupation of the Baltic republics by Nazi Germany, and participating in Talk:Communist terrorism. When commenting on AE cases relating to the EEML case he has always logged in as Dojarca. MathFacts (talk · contribs) started editing in March 2009. His early edits consist exclusively of non-controversial topics like Indefinite sum. I cannot find any edits in MathFacts edit history to articles that have been in dispute in the DIGWUREN or EEML cases. In November this year he made an edit to Roman Shukhevych (history), that was twice reverted by Lvivske and Galassi, prompting MathFacts to start an AE request on this notice board. I cannot see any overlap here, Even though the Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, I do not think it has ever been in the scope of interest of Dojarca or the EEML group. MathFacts/Dojarca had full right to keep his political and maths related edits separate. MathFacts has not turned to political EE topics after Dojarca withdrew. When returning to old EEML disputes it was exactly in line with policy for Dojarca to log in with his old account. If someone disagrees with me, please point out a single edit that MathFacts/Dojarca did with the wrong account. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC) P.S. – As to the question of whether it is appropriate to comment on the EEML case after withdrawing from the disputes. The EEML topic bans are only temporary and will soon expire. It is quite possible that we will again see the same participants in the same disputes. In the meanwhile I see a trend on the anti-EEML side: these editors too have withdrawn from the topic area – and for the most part, from following the edits of EEML members. This situation has only been possible because of the trust that the topic bans are effective. Inability to enforce the topic bans will force the anti-EEML side to actively engage in the topics and scrutinize EEML edits. I would find such an outcome most unwanted. -- Petri Krohn (talk) Response to T. Canens The policy the explicitly allows MathFacts to use Dojarca as an alternate account is Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Legitimate uses. The example presented for privacy: Privacy: A person editing an article which is highly controversial within his/her family, social or professional circle, and whose Misplaced Pages identity is known within that circle, or traceable to their real-world identity, may wish to use an alternative account to avoid real-world consequences from their editing or other Misplaced Pages actions in that area. Dojarca is now a single purpose account editing only in an extremely narrow topic area of Baltic occupation theories and related process pages. The topic area is highly controversial. Several Eastern European countries have passed laws which criminalize presenting some points-of-view on the topic area. In addition to prison terms people active in the topic area may face travel bans and other harassment from security services and law enforcement officials. In fact, I know of cases, both real and alleged, where Misplaced Pages editors have been targeted by such actions. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Re 2 Yes, MathFacts filed an AE request. I cannot see any connection between that dispute and the edits of the Dojarca account. Also I do not accept your argument about "procject space". "Editing project space" in WP:ILLEGIT applies to "misleading, deceiving, disrupting, or undermining consensus." There is no case for misleading or deceiving. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Response to Volunteer Marek Re: "Dojarca need that second account for?" For editing mathematics related articles without harassment form members of the EEML group. I believe Dojarca was high up in the "enemies list". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2) Questions by uninvolved Ncmvocalist Mkativerata, when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Dojarca to cease making reports of this nature to AE? Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Could you provide a diff for that offer? Also, when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Offliner to cease making reports of this nature to AE? I appreciate the latter of my questions is concerning a separate action and is not going to be directly covered by this appeal, however, there is a relationship which is likely to influence the outcome of this particular appeal in one way (while affecting the outcome of the potential appeal of that action in another way). Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dojarca Other than statements made to date, answers to my questions, and the AE, I've also looked at the clarification thread that was made on this AE noticeboard and the comments made at the AE which resulted in Offliner being restricted (I've also commented on that). In regards to Dojarca's restriction, which is why we are here, I ~~am inclined to~~ oppose this particular appeal at this time. Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner, but pushed ahead with making the report of a relatively stale violation. Though I don't believe Dojarca is proxying on Offliner's behalf, I was concerned with the comment he made here where he offered to proxy, as well as (more particularly) the other comments he made in the clarification thread above. I'm convinced that it is not beneficial for Dojarca to be reporting further violations of these decisions, unless he/she is directly affected (if someone reports Dojarca for something, Dojarca should be able to participate in the thread, and if Dojarca reports someone, it should be because that someone is, for example, allegedly being uncivil to Dojarca rather than to someone else). That said, Deacon's concerns are justified and I don't believe it is beneficial to appear to be muzzling users. The decision is going to expire soon, but rather than appearing to ignore the concerns, administrators at AE (and even current arbitrators) should be especially mindful of the fact that there is a dissatisfaction over the lenient approach in enforcing direct violations of the relevant decision. If the edits/violations are in themselves helpful, then normally, that may be part of the grounds to have the restriction removed by AC. But this was not a normal case of disruption so it won't be; Community trust was breached after a concerted effort was made (improper external coordination) to thwart the very goals of this project, be it intentionally or otherwise (depending on the participant). Accordingly, trust needs to be regained by full compliance, not selective compliance. Therefore, in this case, rewarding users who toe the line of their restriction(s) with the outcome they were wanting is not advisable, and plain wrong. In regards to Offliner's restriction, should an appeal be made, I would be inclined to support it. Among the comments that were critical of Offliner's behavior, a more useful warning was provided in the thread itself by a former arbitrator, and in that respect, a formal restriction was unnecessary given that Offliner appeared willing to comply with the warning (and I wasn't the only user who seemed to be satisfied with that assurance). Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed and we wouldn't be here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)changed from incline to direct oppose. 01:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner - this could be true only if to admit that I should know that any AE request against EEML member would lead to a restriction upon me. Because any requests against EEML members are in certain sense 'similar' to those of Offliner. That said any user now shell know about "high likelihood" of getting punished for any request against EEML (you warned!). Anyway I received no warning as required and as such I only could speculate whether such and such report would be considered inappropriate (if I received a warning I could crarify the matter with the admin). Of course I did not suppose that my request will be considered inappropriate. I thought Offliner was restricted just because he did too many requests and made callous the eyes of the admins here, and not because ot the substance of his request (the request seemed fully legitimate for me). That was also the reason why I suggested be proxy: I thought, admins would not so angry if another person makes the same request than Offliner who became boring.--Dojarca (talk) 10:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed - yes, and the hint was "do not report anything against EEML, we do not want to hear it". In that case yes, there would be no restriction. But also it means an indulgency for any actions by EEML members.--Dojarca (talk) 10:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC) You still don't understand that the main problem with your AE request was not that it was against an EEML user (whatever that is), but against the same user who was considered just 2 days ago, and over the edits made prior to a recent warning to him. It is for this reason that admins consider this request to be inappropriate. Offliner's case should have served as a warning to those who use AE inappropriately. - BorisG (talk) 10:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC) In that case the Offliner's case could not serve as warning because his request was common and usual. What warning can bring punishment for a common and usual request? Only that not to make any requests at all. If I was punished for another reason than Offliner (i.e. for old diffs), than there was obviously no warning for not making such requests. Moreover, what repeated or serious violation is posting a request with odler diffs?--Dojarca (talk) 10:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I don't have enough experience to judge if it was serious or not (certainly not repeated). However I do agree that you did not receive proper warning. But in any case, your sanction is pretty mild, you have no editing restriction, only barred from AE and such. Maybe two months without AE will be useful for you so that you can concentrate on content creation. It is like telling me at work that I am barred from attedning meetings for 2 months. That would be a blessing :). Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC) No. The problem is that I am not barred only from AE but as clarified Mkativerata, from seeking any administrator intervention, including 3RR, vandalism and so on. This is certainly different. In fact I made right-less here for two months.--MathFacts (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I can hardly see this as a problem. I have been editing here on and off for years, and not once I saw a need to do any of that. - BorisG (talk) 13:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC) As noted above, I oppose allowing the appeal at this time. In regards to the sockpuppetry block, an unblock is unnecessary (in my opinion) to allow this appeal to reach its natural conclusion; the outcome of which I don't believe is the one that Dojarca/MathFile desires. The user can have their comments transcluded here if they wish. However, as the user is blocked, the thread has been reformatted to ensure that involved users and uninvolved users are in their own sections for the most part (excepting the above conversation between the appealing user and BorisG). In regards to appealing the results from the SPI, this is obviously not the appeal venue...but I'd advise the relevant admin to take care. An involved user has raised a policy provided exception; responding AE admins are advised to look into it before further considering any other remedies beyond those imposed at this time. In particular, a single isolated breach (which was obvious, though probably genuinely unintentional) may not be sufficient to warrant further action than what has already been taken via SPI. If further measures are needed, such action needs to be based on solid evidence in the form of specific diffs or other breaches - not a tool which provides limited assistance about where to locate some relevant diffs. It is also worth considering whether further enforcement in this same thread will simply but unnecessarily reopen the grounds for another appeal, when that action can be taken separately in another AE thread, if necessary. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Volunteer Marek, could you please reformulate your request to remove the general battleground tone? Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC) I don't think the submitted exceptions can reasonably be invoked in this case; there is an obvious overlap between pages/topics and there is a lack of consistency in the way these overlaps occur. I'd support a topic ban from the area of conflict. That said, I'm not sure it is sufficient, and I think it should be handled in a separate thread (not even at AE, but back to a general admin noticeboard as other topics are involved). Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Dojarca This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. The AE request that prompted this sanction was clearly disruptive. A request was brought against Piotrus by Offliner and resulted in a warning to Piotrus to take a more conservative approach to his topic ban and a restriction for Offliner. Two days later, Dojarca brings a near-identical AE request, only citing even older diffs than Offliner's. I don't see how that could be anything other than disruptive battleground behaviour, so I'm inclined to oppose this appeal. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 15:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Administrator note I've blocked Dojarca for two weeks because of socking; see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca. Anyone who wishes to unblock him for the purposes of this appeal should feel free to do so. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Unblock is quite unnecessary given MuZemike's Confirmed finding. Given this, I'm inclined to impose a lengthy topic ban, which would moot the present appeal. Comments are welcome. T. Canens (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Just to make sure we're being fair: is there a possibility the two accounts were meant to be legitimate topic-separated accounts under the provisions of WP:SOCK, and the edit on this page was just a one-off technical mistake about being accidentally logged in with the wrong account? At first sight, I don't see recent overlap of edits on contentious topics, and the cases where both accounts have edited the same articles appear to be mostly separated by large time intervals. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Ah, strike that. On a second look, both accounts were systematically active here on this page in various political threads relatively recently, which certainly does cross the line into forbidden puppetry. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC) A two-week block is generous if you ask me, but, absent a lengthening of the block, I'd support a nice long topic ban. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 19:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC) @Mkativerata Well even if the sock was being used legitimately, that went out of the window, using an undisclosed alternate account to edit AE is inevitably going to give the impression of purporting to be another editor, even if that wasn't the intent. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 20:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space. 'nuff said. T. Canens (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC) @Petri Krohn: that example is quite clear - "A person editing an article". Some potentially legitimate edits do not excuse clearly illegitmate uses. Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space, which WP:AE is a part of, period. No exceptions. Whether that account is also sometimes used in a permitted manner is irrelevant, just as no one may votestack in an AfD or in a talk page discussion, even if they are using an account supposedly created for privacy reasons. T. Canens (talk) 01:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Sorry to comment out of place, but that single edit above was clearly unintentional, and did not pretend to be a different editor. - BorisG (talk) 01:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC) What about and the bunch of preceding edits? T. Canens (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Now that's wikilawyering to the extreme. For one, the general does not prevail over the specific. If they want to use that account to edit only math articles, fine, but it has (1) edited in EE-related areas, including such articles and pages as Transport in the Soviet Union, Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs, Talk:Mikhail Kalinin, Russian National Unity and Moscow which is entirely unrelated to math, and (2) been used to make an inactionable DIGWUREN AE request. Not only is it a project space ban violation, but it also violates WP:SCRUTINY, since it dissociates the user from the history. That may well have been an aggravating factor when the sanctions in this case were imposed, had we known it at that time. There is plainly and simply nothing legitimate about this account. T. Canens (talk) 04:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC) This has been open long enough. Long term socking is usually treated quite harshly, and I have to admit that I was a little surprised that the block was not for longer. Regardless, under the authority of WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions, Dojarca (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Eastern Europe, broadly construed, for one year. This ban renders the present appeal moot, so it should be closed now. Dojarca is free to appeal this ban when their block expires. T. Canens (talk) 20:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Dojarca blocked for 2 weeks and topic banned for one year after socking was discovered, rendering this appeal moot.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Dojarca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Dojarca (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: Dojarca is prohibited from commencing or participating in dispute resolution or enforcement processes (including arbitration enforcement) relating to user conduct within the area of conflict (as defined by WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions) for a period of two months, save for processes concerning his or her own conduct. To avoid doubt, "commencing or participating in" includes doing so by proxy.

Administrator imposing the sanction: Mkativerata (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: He watches this page, so possibly, no need to notify him.

Statement by Dojarca

The ArbCom remedy reads as follows:

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.

The following requirements for the remedy did not met:

- I did not repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process

That is what I did here and elsewhere in Misplaced Pages was in line with Misplaced Pages's policy and if even I made any mistakes somewhere, I ceased any incorrect behavior upon notification. A first notification was always sufficient. If I was somewhere involved in repeated and serious disruptive behavior, please point to such instances.

- I was not warned before applying the remedy.

Of course, I knew about that ArbCom case and the enacted sanctions because I participated in it. On the other hand, I was not warned about any related to this AE request incorrect behavior from my side. It is obvious that the warning requirement is essential to give a user possibility to cease any wrong behavior before the sanctions and only in the case the user ignores such warnings (i.e. "dispite" them) continues wrong conduct he shall be sanctioned.

It is evident also that the warning requirement allows the administrator to formalize what behavior he considers against the rules and what he requires from the user. Since I was not warned, I had no idea of whether I break the rules and how could I improve my doings.

Just the fact of my participation in the arbcom case does not allow any administrator to impose any sanction against me without preceding warning.

The sanction enacted by Mkativerata not only does not me allow to request for enforcement of ArbCom decisions about the case with which I am familiar and involved, but also prevents me from communicating with uncivil users in the course or normal process, including reporting such basic violations of the rules as 3RR and personal attacks, placing me in a dependence of whether it would be spotted by a random administrator. Henceforward anybode can insult me and I have no right to complain.

Statement by Mkativerata

Noting that I am aware of the appeal. I have no statement to make, feeling my (and other admins') comments in the original AE speak for themselves. I will probably not comment here unless (a) I'm asked a direct question by an uninvolved administrator; or (b) I feel I'm being misrepresented.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Ncmvocalist: I did not. I considered that Dojarca's involvement in the Offliner/Piotrus AE (and offer to act as Offliner's proxy in future AEs) made him sufficiently aware of the dangers of lodging battleground AEs. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The diff is here. Offliner was on notice of DIGWUREN sanctions. I considered that sufficient warning. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested to hear Dojarca's explanation for the socking - as Fut.Perf. alludes to, the editing pattern is a little unconventional. But of course that he/she was using multiple accounts to lodge AEs in recent weeks is grounds enough to act. We can't allow sockpuppeteers to infect topic areas like this. My impression from this appeal has only firmed my confidence in the original sanction: language such as my "right" to take someone to AE and other noticeboard reflects an attitude unconducive to productive involvement in disputes. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Dojarca

The diff provided is obviously not a diff for Mkativerata's warning, but a diff of my post. The fact that you put this diff here suggests that you thought I proxied for Offliner which is not the case. If I proxied for Offliner I would say so or at least say that Offliner provided the diffs, but I evaluated the significance of the evidence myself or something similar.

Regarding that you consider enforcing ArbCom rulings a battleground behavior. If enforcing ArbCom decision is a battleground, then why the decision itself is not battleground? Maybe we should accuse ArbCom in battleground behavior against the respected EEML group?

What can you say about the Offliner's request regarding Martintg? Was it also a "battleground AE"? Which further AE against EEML will be considered battleground? Should all editors who posted here now be considered "warned" and blame themselves if punished following an AE against EEML? Dojarca (talk) 08:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement (not really more like a puzzlement) by Volunteer Marek

Ummmm.... why is that next to last statement , using a first person singular, as in referring to Dojarca, signed by User:MathFacts? Am I missing something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks like naughtiness. I've blocked and launched an SPI at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca to determine the nature of the puppetry more exactly. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As much as an SPI appears to be proper (no comment on the length of the block) here, I strongly object to Deacon using his administrative tools in this matter. He simply is too involved, as found on this board before and as evidenced by his frequent participation in EE-topics related dispute resolution (I'm actually quite amazed that he can state "(I) don't consider myself involved" with a straight face). There's plenty of truly uninvolved admins who are perfectly capable of acting here and in EE-topic related matters in general. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he must be unblocked and have an opportunity to respond at this page and in sockpuppet investigation. Biophys (talk) 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens - it might be noteworthy that the MathFacts account was used as recently as two weeks ago to file another spurious AE request against User:Lvivske: . Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I guess this explains why during EEML ArbCom case evil mailing list members were begging everybody involved to be checkusered, but the glorious and indisputably honest "content opponents" flatly refused en masse. Dojarca, Loosemark, Altenmann... I am pretty sure there are more socks and at least one (but probably two) group accounts among the "content opponents". --Sander Säde 09:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sure. If everyone who vote in Arbcom elections is checkusered, then why not checkuser everyone who appears in the list of logs and bans? This is a significant part of long-standing problems in the area. Biophys (talk) 17:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Request for clarification from Petri and others

Wait! So I can create various alternate accounts (calling them "sockpuppets" would be a personal attack!!!) for my various activities here on Misplaced Pages and that's all alright? I can have one account for my Poland related topics, one for my Economics related topics (maybe a separate one for Economics of Poland topics), one for Mexican history topics, one for commenting over at AN/I, one for bringing articles to AfD I don't like, one for voting in ArbCom elections, one for reverting User:Bob (I don't think there really is a User:Bob, but if there is, no offense, Bob), and one for filing spurious requests at Arbitration/Requests/Enforcements? That's all legitimate?

Crap! Why didn't anyone tell me? I'll get crackin'...

Of course I'm joking. Seriously. Anyone stop and ask "what the hey did Dojarca need that second account for except for the purposes of disruptive battleground behavior"? The apparent intention of some folks here to fall over themselves in trying to come up with some kind of excuse for the guy - especially since in other cases they were quite happy to swing the ban hammer swiftly and heavily, is a bit worrisome. And that's not even addressing Deacon's light weight, "damage control" two week block after he supported Dojarca. Sometimes AE makes my head spin. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

@Petri: For editing mathematics related articles without harassment form members of the EEML group. I believe Dojarca was high up in the "enemies list". - that's complete nonsense on so many levels:

He did not just use the account for mathematics related articles. He used it to file battleground AE requests.
He was never harassed by anyone from EEML. If you gonna allege harassment please provide evidence. Otherwise this is just a personal attack.
In fact, in light of first point, the situation's quite reverse - he used the account to harass various editors via spurious requests rather than vice versa.
Dojarca wasn't on any "enemy list" because there wasn't one. In fact I don't think he was ever even mentioned on the list. Don't make stuff up. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
... unless he's got some other account that you're referring to that we're unaware of, that may have been mentioned on the list. If so, time to fess it up. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Responses by Peri Krohn

Response to Fut.Perf.

Please have a closer look!

In fact, the evidence shows that Dojarca has done exactly the right thing in using his two accounts. Dojarca (talk · contribs) was involved in controversial political topics which ultimately resulted in the WP:EEML arbcom case. Dojarca withdrew from editing on 17 February 2010 and his few edits after that have been directly linked to the EEML case. These include opening Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denial of the Holodomor and making an EEML related argument, reverting a move of Occupation of the Baltic republics by Nazi Germany, and participating in Talk:Communist terrorism. When commenting on AE cases relating to the EEML case he has always logged in as Dojarca.

MathFacts (talk · contribs) started editing in March 2009. His early edits consist exclusively of non-controversial topics like Indefinite sum. I cannot find any edits in MathFacts edit history to articles that have been in dispute in the DIGWUREN or EEML cases. In November this year he made an edit to Roman Shukhevych (history), that was twice reverted by Lvivske and Galassi, prompting MathFacts to start an AE request on this notice board. I cannot see any overlap here, Even though the Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, I do not think it has ever been in the scope of interest of Dojarca or the EEML group.

MathFacts/Dojarca had full right to keep his political and maths related edits separate.
MathFacts has not turned to political EE topics after Dojarca withdrew.
When returning to old EEML disputes it was exactly in line with policy for Dojarca to log in with his old account.

If someone disagrees with me, please point out a single edit that MathFacts/Dojarca did with the wrong account. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – As to the question of whether it is appropriate to comment on the EEML case after withdrawing from the disputes. The EEML topic bans are only temporary and will soon expire. It is quite possible that we will again see the same participants in the same disputes. In the meanwhile I see a trend on the anti-EEML side: these editors too have withdrawn from the topic area – and for the most part, from following the edits of EEML members. This situation has only been possible because of the trust that the topic bans are effective. Inability to enforce the topic bans will force the anti-EEML side to actively engage in the topics and scrutinize EEML edits. I would find such an outcome most unwanted. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

Response to T. Canens

The policy the explicitly allows MathFacts to use Dojarca as an alternate account is Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Legitimate uses. The example presented for privacy:

Privacy: A person editing an article which is highly controversial within his/her family, social or professional circle, and whose Misplaced Pages identity is known within that circle, or traceable to their real-world identity, may wish to use an alternative account to avoid real-world consequences from their editing or other Misplaced Pages actions in that area.

Dojarca is now a single purpose account editing only in an extremely narrow topic area of Baltic occupation theories and related process pages. The topic area is highly controversial. Several Eastern European countries have passed laws which criminalize presenting some points-of-view on the topic area. In addition to prison terms people active in the topic area may face travel bans and other harassment from security services and law enforcement officials. In fact, I know of cases, both real and alleged, where Misplaced Pages editors have been targeted by such actions. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Re 2

Yes, MathFacts filed an AE request. I cannot see any connection between that dispute and the edits of the Dojarca account. Also I do not accept your argument about "procject space". "Editing project space" in WP:ILLEGIT applies to "misleading, deceiving, disrupting, or undermining consensus." There is no case for misleading or deceiving. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Volunteer Marek

Re: "Dojarca need that second account for?" For editing mathematics related articles without harassment form members of the EEML group. I believe Dojarca was high up in the "enemies list". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Questions by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

Mkativerata,

when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Dojarca to cease making reports of this nature to AE? Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Could you provide a diff for that offer? Also, when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Offliner to cease making reports of this nature to AE? I appreciate the latter of my questions is concerning a separate action and is not going to be directly covered by this appeal, however, there is a relationship which is likely to influence the outcome of this particular appeal in one way (while affecting the outcome of the potential appeal of that action in another way). Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dojarca

Other than statements made to date, answers to my questions, and the AE, I've also looked at the clarification thread that was made on this AE noticeboard and the comments made at the AE which resulted in Offliner being restricted (I've also commented on that).
In regards to Dojarca's restriction, which is why we are here, I ~~am inclined to~~ oppose this particular appeal at this time. Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner, but pushed ahead with making the report of a relatively stale violation. Though I don't believe Dojarca is proxying on Offliner's behalf, I was concerned with the comment he made here where he offered to proxy, as well as (more particularly) the other comments he made in the clarification thread above. I'm convinced that it is not beneficial for Dojarca to be reporting further violations of these decisions, unless he/she is directly affected (if someone reports Dojarca for something, Dojarca should be able to participate in the thread, and if Dojarca reports someone, it should be because that someone is, for example, allegedly being uncivil to Dojarca rather than to someone else).
That said, Deacon's concerns are justified and I don't believe it is beneficial to appear to be muzzling users. The decision is going to expire soon, but rather than appearing to ignore the concerns, administrators at AE (and even current arbitrators) should be especially mindful of the fact that there is a dissatisfaction over the lenient approach in enforcing direct violations of the relevant decision. If the edits/violations are in themselves helpful, then normally, that may be part of the grounds to have the restriction removed by AC. But this was not a normal case of disruption so it won't be; Community trust was breached after a concerted effort was made (improper external coordination) to thwart the very goals of this project, be it intentionally or otherwise (depending on the participant). Accordingly, trust needs to be regained by full compliance, not selective compliance. Therefore, in this case, rewarding users who toe the line of their restriction(s) with the outcome they were wanting is not advisable, and plain wrong.
In regards to Offliner's restriction, should an appeal be made, I would be inclined to support it. Among the comments that were critical of Offliner's behavior, a more useful warning was provided in the thread itself by a former arbitrator, and in that respect, a formal restriction was unnecessary given that Offliner appeared willing to comply with the warning (and I wasn't the only user who seemed to be satisfied with that assurance). Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed and we wouldn't be here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)changed from incline to direct oppose. 01:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner - this could be true only if to admit that I should know that any AE request against EEML member would lead to a restriction upon me. Because any requests against EEML members are in certain sense 'similar' to those of Offliner. That said any user now shell know about "high likelihood" of getting punished for any request against EEML (you warned!). Anyway I received no warning as required and as such I only could speculate whether such and such report would be considered inappropriate (if I received a warning I could crarify the matter with the admin). Of course I did not suppose that my request will be considered inappropriate. I thought Offliner was restricted just because he did too many requests and made callous the eyes of the admins here, and not because ot the substance of his request (the request seemed fully legitimate for me). That was also the reason why I suggested be proxy: I thought, admins would not so angry if another person makes the same request than Offliner who became boring.--Dojarca (talk) 10:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed - yes, and the hint was "do not report anything against EEML, we do not want to hear it". In that case yes, there would be no restriction. But also it means an indulgency for any actions by EEML members.--Dojarca (talk) 10:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

You still don't understand that the main problem with your AE request was not that it was against an EEML user (whatever that is), but against the same user who was considered just 2 days ago, and over the edits made prior to a recent warning to him. It is for this reason that admins consider this request to be inappropriate. Offliner's case should have served as a warning to those who use AE inappropriately. - BorisG (talk) 10:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
In that case the Offliner's case could not serve as warning because his request was common and usual. What warning can bring punishment for a common and usual request? Only that not to make any requests at all. If I was punished for another reason than Offliner (i.e. for old diffs), than there was obviously no warning for not making such requests. Moreover, what repeated or serious violation is posting a request with odler diffs?--Dojarca (talk) 10:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't have enough experience to judge if it was serious or not (certainly not repeated). However I do agree that you did not receive proper warning. But in any case, your sanction is pretty mild, you have no editing restriction, only barred from AE and such. Maybe two months without AE will be useful for you so that you can concentrate on content creation. It is like telling me at work that I am barred from attedning meetings for 2 months. That would be a blessing :). Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

No. The problem is that I am not barred only from AE but as clarified Mkativerata, from seeking any administrator intervention, including 3RR, vandalism and so on. This is certainly different. In fact I made right-less here for two months.--MathFacts (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I can hardly see this as a problem. I have been editing here on and off for years, and not once I saw a need to do any of that. - BorisG (talk) 13:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As noted above, I oppose allowing the appeal at this time.
In regards to the sockpuppetry block, an unblock is unnecessary (in my opinion) to allow this appeal to reach its natural conclusion; the outcome of which I don't believe is the one that Dojarca/MathFile desires. The user can have their comments transcluded here if they wish. However, as the user is blocked, the thread has been reformatted to ensure that involved users and uninvolved users are in their own sections for the most part (excepting the above conversation between the appealing user and BorisG).
In regards to appealing the results from the SPI, this is obviously not the appeal venue...but I'd advise the relevant admin to take care.
An involved user has raised a policy provided exception; responding AE admins are advised to look into it before further considering any other remedies beyond those imposed at this time. In particular, a single isolated breach (which was obvious, though probably genuinely unintentional) may not be sufficient to warrant further action than what has already been taken via SPI. If further measures are needed, such action needs to be based on solid evidence in the form of specific diffs or other breaches - not a tool which provides limited assistance about where to locate some relevant diffs. It is also worth considering whether further enforcement in this same thread will simply but unnecessarily reopen the grounds for another appeal, when that action can be taken separately in another AE thread, if necessary. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

- Volunteer Marek, could you please reformulate your request to remove the general battleground tone? Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think the submitted exceptions can reasonably be invoked in this case; there is an obvious overlap between pages/topics and there is a lack of consistency in the way these overlaps occur. I'd support a topic ban from the area of conflict. That said, I'm not sure it is sufficient, and I think it should be handled in a separate thread (not even at AE, but back to a general admin noticeboard as other topics are involved). Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Dojarca

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The AE request that prompted this sanction was clearly disruptive. A request was brought against Piotrus by Offliner and resulted in a warning to Piotrus to take a more conservative approach to his topic ban and a restriction for Offliner. Two days later, Dojarca brings a near-identical AE request, only citing even older diffs than Offliner's. I don't see how that could be anything other than disruptive battleground behaviour, so I'm inclined to oppose this appeal. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Administrator note I've blocked Dojarca for two weeks because of socking; see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca. Anyone who wishes to unblock him for the purposes of this appeal should feel free to do so. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Unblock is quite unnecessary given MuZemike's Confirmed finding. Given this, I'm inclined to impose a lengthy topic ban, which would moot the present appeal. Comments are welcome. T. Canens (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  - Just to make sure we're being fair: is there a possibility the two accounts were meant to be legitimate topic-separated accounts under the provisions of WP:SOCK, and the edit on this page was just a one-off technical mistake about being accidentally logged in with the wrong account? At first sight, I don't see recent overlap of edits on contentious topics, and the cases where both accounts have edited the same articles appear to be mostly separated by large time intervals. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    - Ah, strike that. On a second look, both accounts were systematically active here on this page in various political threads relatively recently, which certainly does cross the line into forbidden puppetry. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

A two-week block is generous if you ask me, but, absent a lengthening of the block, I'd support a nice long topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Mkativerata

Well even if the sock was being used legitimately, that went out of the window, using an undisclosed alternate account to edit AE is inevitably going to give the impression of purporting to be another editor, even if that wasn't the intent. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space. 'nuff said. T. Canens (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Petri Krohn: that example is quite clear - "A person editing an article". Some potentially legitimate edits do not excuse clearly illegitmate uses. Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space, which WP:AE is a part of, period. No exceptions. Whether that account is also sometimes used in a permitted manner is irrelevant, just as no one may votestack in an AfD or in a talk page discussion, even if they are using an account supposedly created for privacy reasons. T. Canens (talk) 01:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to comment out of place, but that single edit above was clearly unintentional, and did not pretend to be a different editor. - BorisG (talk) 01:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

What about and the bunch of preceding edits? T. Canens (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Now that's wikilawyering to the extreme. For one, the general does not prevail over the specific. If they want to use that account to edit only math articles, fine, but it has (1) edited in EE-related areas, including such articles and pages as Transport in the Soviet Union, Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs, Talk:Mikhail Kalinin, Russian National Unity and Moscow which is entirely unrelated to math, and (2) been used to make an inactionable DIGWUREN AE request. Not only is it a project space ban violation, but it also violates WP:SCRUTINY, since it dissociates the user from the history. That may well have been an aggravating factor when the sanctions in this case were imposed, had we known it at that time. There is plainly and simply nothing legitimate about this account. T. Canens (talk) 04:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

This has been open long enough. Long term socking is usually treated quite harshly, and I have to admit that I was a little surprised that the block was not for longer. Regardless, under the authority of WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions, Dojarca (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Eastern Europe, broadly construed, for one year. This ban renders the present appeal moot, so it should be closed now. Dojarca is free to appeal this ban when their block expires. T. Canens (talk) 20:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Sanction overturned on technical grounds (prescribed prior steps regarding warning were not followed as laid down)--Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED). Appealing user Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Sanction being appealed "n indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum", imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Delicious_carbuncle. Also discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Potential WP:CANVASSING by User:Cirt. Administrator imposing the sanction Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Notification of that administrator Statement by Delicious carbuncle Let me first set the record straight on a few points which seem to have been misunderstood: Status of Jamie Sorrentini as a Scientologist There appears to be some confusion about whether or not Jamie Sorrentini is or is not a Scientologist. Since off-wiki postings have been brought into this, it is odd that they were not read and understood. I believe this posting by Tizano Lugli (Sorrentini's husband) says that they are still Scientologists. Much of that posting is written in incomprehensible jargon, but that is my sincere belief. At the time I didn't understand that one could be a Scientologist and not be part of the Church of Scientology, but I have since been informed that this situation is not unique. www.truthaboutscientology.com as a reliable source When Cirt first reverted my addition to Sorrentini's bio, their edit summary was "rmv source that fails WP:RS in a WP:BLP page". Given my views on Cirt's editing of CoS-related articles, I was reluctant to take that assertion at face value. Discussion of sources usually happens at WP:RSN, so I had no objection to Cirt starting a discussion there. What I objected to was the removal of the source from Sorrentini's bio -- and only Sorrentini's bio -- while that discussion was still in progress. (The removal of the source from articles occurred after I had already indicated on the article's talk page my acceptance for my edits to be reverted, but that I felt it was inappropriate for Cirt to do so.) Immediately after starting the discussion at RSN, Cirt posted links to it in 3 other noticeboards (, , & ). While I am not accusing Cirt of canvassing in this instance, it seems reasonable to assume that this would draw editors whose interests relate to religion rather than sourcing. There is now consensus about the use of this source and I am happy to go along with that consensus. In retrospect, I should not have re-added the information and I understand why it is being labelled as "pointy". BLP violations on Sorrentini's bio HJ Mitchell refers to my addition of the source as "an egregious violation of BLP". How so? The source was being used in other BLPs at the time I added it to Sorrentini's bio. There was no consensus against using the source. Although Cirt more than once made the claim that there was consensus against using this source, that is simply not true. When asked to produce a link to this consensus, Cirt linked to a discussion from 2007 which was inconclusive and in which they, then editing as User:Smee, expressed support for using the source. I'm not sure how I was supposed to know in advance of a discussion at RSN (let alone a consensus being reached), that I should not be using a source already used in other BLPs (and in fact added to some of those BLPs by the very person who was objecting to its use on a biography that they created). My involvement with Scientology I have no involvement with Scientology. This isn't about Scientology, it is about the even application of our policies and guidelines. Anyone who believes that anything I have written on-wiki or off-wiki shows a pro-Scientology viewpoint is simply mistaken. I wish to appeal these sanctions on the following grounds: In imposing this sanction, Future Perfect states that I "knew" that Sorrentini was not a Scientologist and so my edits to her BLP were "a deliberate BLP violation". I do not know this and I believe that the opposite is true. Future Perfect further states "D.c.'s professions that he allegedly was not aware about any dispute about her membership don't sound plausible". I say in that diff "No one has disputed that Sorrentini is a Scientologist". To be clear, what I was saying was that there was no dispute about the facts, only the sourcing of those facts, hence I didn't see the urgency in removing the information. At that time no one had disputed the assertion. If Cirt has expressed an opinion on the matter, I have not yet seen it. Cirt canvassed admins in an attempt to have me blocked. When that didn't work, they canvassed admins to direct them to the Arbitration Enforcement request. Future Perfect was one of those canvassed. Future Perfect commented in the ANI thread that precipitated this request. Their support of Cirt was quite apparent at that time. I believe it was inappropriate for them to have imposed sanctions. Aside from Jamie Sorrentini, I am not aware of having edited any CoS-related articles. Although I am accusing Cirt of an anti-Scientology bias, I have no position on Scientology-related articles other than in relation to our policies and guidelines. While I have no objection to Cirt filing an RFC/U about my allegations -- in fact, I would welcome it -- my part in this should not fall under ARBSCI and I feel this is simply another attempt on Cirt's part to prevent me from expressing what have proven to be valid concerns judging from the edits made thus far to the articles I have singled out. Thank you for your time. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Reply to Future Perfect at Sunrise: - I really do not understand your statement. As I have stated above, I believe Sorrentini to be a Scientologist based on the words of her husband. I believed that when I identified her as such in her bio. The information from her husband was in the off-wiki discussion you linked to in the original AE request. I am not sure why you are confused about this. Yes, I believe Cirt created the article because Sorrentini and her husband have split from the Church of Scientology. Further, I believe that Cirt's objection to the sourcing was based on a desire to exclude information about Sorrentini's former connection to the CoS. As I have shown in the ANI thread, Cirt has added that source to several articles. As I have also shown in the ANI thread, Cirt failed to remove the source from several CoS-related articles that they had edited in the last few months. When did Cirt decide it was not a reliable source, and why did they make no effort to remove it from BLPs until I added it to Sorrentini's bio? Why would I have any knowledge of prior discussions about the reliability of the source? I have not participated in them. I have not edited Scientology articles. I am fresh to the topic area. Which discussion would tell me that the source was not reliable? Cirt could not provide one to back their claim that there was consensus against using it. Not only is it impossible for me to prove my ignorance, there isn't even a consensus of which I can be ignorant. Your accusation is simply nonsense. As for "this particular combination of a Misplaced Pages hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic", I do not consider a bluntly frank ANI thread to be "hounding", but I make no apologies for the former - I am out to expose Cirt as the anti-Scientology POV-pusher that I believe them to be. Their actions are harmful to Misplaced Pages and the time has come for them to stop. Which BLP violations are you referencing here? I have made none in this situation, but I have pointed out many made by Cirt. You clearly do not have a grasp on the facts of the matter. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Future Perfect, it is quite evident from your replies that you have chosen to take Cirt at their word, but to dismiss anything I say as questionable. Your bias likely springs from the fact that I am "attacking" a fellow admin. You are correct that the citation I added to Sorrentini's bio identified her as a member of the CoS. At the time I was not aware that one could be a "Scientologist" outside of the CoS, but I had read Tizano Lugli's piece declaring them to be "Scientologists". My understanding, therefore, was that they had reconsidered their split from the CoS. I now know this not to be the case. My good-faith belief at that time was that she was a member of the CoS. My good-faith belief now is that she is a Scientologist (but not associated with the CoS, except as a critic). I have tried to make the present situation clear, since I suspect I am not the only one who did not know that there were independent Scientologists. Keeping up with Cirt's edits would require at least two people. I am only one person and I have better things to do. Here's my method: Look at a list of articles created by Cirt. If the article is about Scientology, there is likely a BLP violation or two that needs fixing. Look at the history, If Cirt has edited the article, did they neglect to remove those BLP violations? Did Cirt (or Smee) add the BLP violations? Done. Next article. You should try it. It could be interesting for you. Alternately, you could pick anything involving a well-known Scientologist and see what edits Cirt has made. Take Knight and Day. Start here. Now tell me there's no problem here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 09:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Reply to DocJames: You seem to be saying that you have concerns about things that were published off-wiki about Cirt - this is a discussion about enforcement of ARBSCI sanctions. Are you in the right room? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC) DocJames, you state that "A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Misplaced Pages Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games", as if I am representing Misplaced Pages Review in some capacity and as if a forum with hundreds of members holds one opinion about this (or anything). It appears that your opinions expressed here have nothing to do with the matter at hand, but are based on a dislike of that forum. When I posted a list of anti-CoS Wikinews articles created by Cirt in the original ANI thread, it was collapsed by one of their supporters because it dealt with off-wiki edits even though it is a sister project. I find it odd that so much attention is being given here to a particular forum which is independent of Misplaced Pages and functions under its own set of rules and guidelines. Attempts to impose Misplaced Pages's rules on off-wiki sites are misguided and unproductive but some people do not seem to be able to resist their inclination to try. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC) DocJames, you keep harping on about Misplaced Pages Review. Should all Misplaced Pages editors who have contributed to that forum declare themselves to be involved and recuse themselves from this discussion? Do you have an account there? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Yes all editors who have been discussing Cirt over at WP REVIEW and calling for action are involved. You can find my edits under my user name. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Reply to Jehochman: Jehochman, I have already agreed at RSN that the source is unreliable and it should go without saying that I will not use it again. I would not have chosen to use it had it not already been in use at other BLPs. In fact, I cut and pasted most of the citation from where it was used at that time in the BLP of Alexandra Powers to save myself some typing. You have perhaps missed an important detail in all of this. www.truthaboutscientology.com is not a CoS website. In fact, it is the website of someone who is a critic of Scientology (and also runs a site called Scientology Lies). The information contained in the site is drawn from CoS publications. This is an important point so I will try my best to make it clear to those willing to listen. Jehochman says "using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious". In actual fact, the use of CoS sources to establish that someone is a Scientologist seems to be common. I believe in some cases those sources are websites with testimonials from the individual, but often the sources are publications which are not available online. It is not clear to me if CoS publications are reliable sources or not since I have no familiarity with them. Cirt's POV-pushing is really just the tip of the iceberg with regard to CoS-related BLP issues, but nothing will likely change while they are free to edit CoS articles. Incidentally, you appear to have been one of the editors to add allegations of spamming to Speedyclick.com, one of the CoS-related (or formerly CoS-related) articles discussed at ANI. That section has been removed since the Spamhaus links are no longer functional. I didn't get a chance to ask you before my topic ban, but if you recall the circumstances of the Spamhaus records, perhaps you could reinstate that section with other sources? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Jehochman, Cirt has had plenty of opportunity to reply to my charges, first at the ANI thread, then at the AE, and now at this appeal. I am quite prepared to file a request for sanctions against Cirt here if the community deems that appropriate, but I do not think that should be necessary given the amount of evidence I have already presented. My experiences with you have shown that you present yourself as a polite voice of reason and suggest that we all calmly let the current situation dissipate and then address the issues at other venues, all the while making it clear that you are willing to block editors who do not go along with your polite and reasonable suggestions. I have yet to see any case where the root cause has been addressed after the immediate dispute is put aside, usually with measures in place to ensure that the participants cannot do so themselves. I have no faith that Cirt will be sanctioned if they are not sanctioned in this current proceeding and I am unable to bring any action due to my own sanctions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Questions regarding sanctions: I am concerned that these sanctions will prevent me from addressing BLP issues that I identified while looking at CoS-related articles over this past few days. GraemeL has already threatened to block me for bringing those BLP problems to the BLP noticeboard, so I would like to be clear on which activities are proscribed by these sanctions. Can I raise issues at BLPN? Can I edit articles created or edited by Cirt but unrelated to Scientology? Can I edit articles which were formerly associated with Scientology but have been removed from that category? For example, I was planning to nominate Alexandra Powers for deletion. Can I request ARBSCI enforcement based on Cirt's activities or must someone do that? It seems unlikely that anyone else will be willing to take that on. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Reply to Cirt's offer: Cirt, while I can appreciate Jehochman's suggestions and your show of goodwill in extending this offer, I must decline it for the following reasons: My concerns are related to BLP and POV issues, not Scientology. While working on an article about a book by CoS founder L Ron Hubbard may improve our working relationship, I do not think it is relevant to the issues I have raised. Perhaps we could work together on something completely unrelated to Scientology when this is resolved. I have presented evidence at ANI of a long-term pattern of POV-pushing and anti-Scientology activities because it is my sincere belief that you hold a bias that prevents you from fairly applying our policies and guidelines. I do no think it is appropriate or helpful to reframe this as a personal dispute between two editors which can be solved through discussion on your talk page. Having publicly raised my concerns, I believe it would be unfair to you if you did not have an opportunity to publicly rebut them. Your comments thus far at WP:ANI, WP:BLPN, and WP:AE appear to be attempts to limit discussion of the underlying issues rather than addressing them. You have stated that your reason for canvassing admins to impose sanctions on me at the arbitration request you started was due to your frustration over critical statements made by another editor. I cannot understand this statement to mean anything other than that you were deliberately attempting to limit discussion which was critical of your actions. I think this is both grossly inappropriate for an admin and indicative of your unwillingness to directly address valid concerns. Even in the article you use as an example of your successful collaboration with other editors on CoS-related articles, you are merely demonstrating your lack of perspective. On Michael Doven, a good-faith edit attempt to separate the subject's professional career from their involvement with the CoS was made by another editor after I raised it at BLPN. You reverted it. Although some of the fluff has been removed, the article is still larded with a truly ridiculous number of gratuitous references to Scientology and Scientologists (including a reference in the lede to "the younger sister of musician Beck"). The reader is given the impression that Doven's success is inextricably linked to Scientology. This BLP should serve as an example of why I feel that I must file a request for arbitration enforcement. I regret having to rebuff your outreach and I hope you understand this is not personally motivated. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise I stand by my assessment expressed here . D.c. was, at the very least, insincere when he was claiming there was no dispute about that person being a Sc. member, because his whole motivation in even noticing that article was evidently because he felt Cirt had only written it because the subject had broken with Sc. Under these circumstances, his professions of innocence (begin "fresh to this" and not being aware of prior debates etc.) ring hollow: he deliberately fabricated this incident in order to gain an opportunity of exposing Cirt. It is this particular combination of a Misplaced Pages hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic and which, in my view, makes a long-term sanction necessary. As to my being "involved": I'm not. I gave an administrative comment in the previous ANI thread, warning D.c. that I found his method of accusations problematic and that it made him liable to sanctions. Last time I looked, we are supposed to warn users before sanctioning them, right? – As for Cirt's posting on my page, as I said before, I didn't even read it, and if I had, it would naturally have made me more prejudiced against Cirt than against D.c. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Further to D.c.'s defense above: D.c. now entangles himself in self-contradictions. He claims he had reason to believe in good faith that J.S. still was a scientologist, despite the 2010 reports that she had left – but he was quoting a source from before the time she reportedly split, which under these circumstances he had to know was evidently irrelevant. He is also now making that distinction between being a CoS member and being a scientologist – but in his edits to the article he was unambiguously claiming CoS membership . As for being or not being aware of the backstory about the preceding discussions regarding the reliability of that website, D.c. had evidently spent a lot of time following Cirt's editing, over several months. He was able, within a day of the time the J.S. conflict was created, to cite numbers of instances where Cirt had been dealing with that source, even with articles where the link no longer was in the article (and would therefore not be findable through the external-links tool). The only way D.c. could have had of knowing about these cases was if he had systematically searched through all of Cirt's contributions. I simply don't believe he did all of that after deciding to spark off the D.J. kerfluffle, and I also don't believe he could collect all the instances where Cirt added or failed to remove that link, without becoming aware of the surrounding discussions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Cirt Please see the initial AE report I had made about Deliciuos carbuncle - the evidence of that user's actions is all there. I admit that I was wrong to post in the manner in which I did about the user to multiple user talk pages. That was inappropriate, and it stemmed from my frustration over ongoing and repeated WP:WIKIHOUNDING against me by Jayen466 (talk · contribs), which has been a quite disturbing pattern for over three years now. I let Jayen466 (talk · contribs)'s WP:WIKIHOUNDING get the better of me, and I became frustrated and acted inappropriately. But the evidence I originally presented about Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) still stands as valid. -- Cirt (talk) 06:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Comment: In a discussion between Jehochman and Delicious carbuncle at User talk:Jehochman, Jehochman suggested that Delicious carbuncle and I should both try to move forward collaboratively together. Jehochman recommended jointly working on a quality improvement project - striving to bring an article's quality up to being ready for WP:GAC or even maybe WP:FAC. I have suggested this recommendation from Jehochman to Delicious carbuncle, in a post to User talk:Delicious carbuncle. I have recommended a quality improvement project on the book Slaves of Sleep, a book well-regarded that received positive reception about the writing of its author Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard; the book is even considered a science fiction "classic". Jehochman suggested including Jayen466 as well in this quality improvement effort. I would very much like to work with Jayen466 and Delicious carbuncle together collaboratively to improve the quality of the Misplaced Pages article on this book which is well-regarded in literary circles. It would be wonderful for the three of us and any other editors interested to try to refocus our efforts on improving the quality of an article within the topic, and making a good faith effort to move forward with bettering the quality of Misplaced Pages, together. :) -- Cirt (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Update: Unfortunately, Delicious carbuncle has refused my offer (see also edit summary) to work collaboratively together with him. The offer is still open. I'd very much like to work together with Delicious carbuncle to collaboratively improve the quality of a Misplaced Pages article on the topic to GA or FA. :) -- Cirt (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by DocJames What DC has written off Misplaced Pages is inappropriate harassment A ban or further interaction with Cirt was not proposed because of a persistent pattern of inappropriate editing of Scientology article but for inappropriate behavior WRT another editor.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Griswaldo I'm on record already, in more than one venue, regarding the inappropriate nature of these sanctions. I initiated Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? after a failed direct appeal to User:Future Perfect at Sunrise on their talk page to consider allowing a truly uninvolved admin do the job. It is important to look at the chain of events here. Cirt files an AN/I about Delicious carbuncle's editing of Jamie Sorrentini. Carbuncle decides to use the AN/I platform to air his various complaints about Cirt's POV editing of Scientology related entries. Cirt contacts various admins to help him out at AN/I, but no remedies are enacted (for the canvassing evidence see here. During this AN/I discussion Future Perfect levies the following criticism/threat at carbuncle - "If you feel those articles are problematic, then go and fix them, otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you." After no remedies are found at AN/I Cirt takes the discussion to AE, and proceeds to contqact more admins (see above link), this time appealing directly to Future Perfect. Future Perfect's first edits to the AE discussion are to impose sanctions on carbuncle. The combination of 4, 5, and 6 above, in swift succession is disturbing to say the least. Future Perfect claims to be "uninvolved" and to not have read Cirt's appeal on his/her talk page, simply glancing at it as reminder of the AE. Well we cannot know that, nor can we know what Future Perfect's intentions were. All we know is that 1) Future Perfect issued a threat to carbuncle, 2) Cirt asked Future Perfect to come to AE, and 3) Future Perfect made good on his/her threat. If that isn't improper I don't know what is. Then there is the matter of the sanction itself, which appears Draconian to say the least. How can you ban an editor from complaining about policy violations EVER? The supposed "interaction" ban imposed dissallows carbuncle from raising complaints about Cirt, in the area of Scientology. Really? No matter what you think of Cirt it appears to be common knowledge that Cirt has a very strong anti-Scientology POV. And now he gets a free pass from the criticism of an editor who beleives he has crossed the line? How on earth is that ever appropriate? In short I think Future Perfect erred rather egregiously here. I really wish they took my initial request with more humility and simply let someone else deal with this. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Question - Why is the sanctioning admin commenting in a section reserved for "uninvolved administrators"? Certainly at this point Future Perfect is no longer "uninvolved".Griswaldo (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Jayen466 I propose that the original complaint be re-tried, by a quorum of at least five (5) administrators who have not been solicited by either party, and do not have a history of participation in arbitration cases involving cults. Any decision to reflect consensus among said admins, with a majority of four (4) required to take a decision. Does this sound fair? --JN466 14:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC) That is not how AE works. We should not propose random arbitrary new procedures mid-case. -- Cirt (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC) How does previous involvement with arbcom cases on cults have to do with anything? Would it be equally appropriate to find people who have never edited pseudoscience topics? OR been involved with BLPs? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I believe T. Canens is absolutely correct. Neither editor has received a warning as required by ARBSCI. In addition, DC made the BLP edits at issue before he was sort-of warned; he cannot be warned AND sanctioned for the same behaviour, without having repeated it after the warning. The sanction on DC should be lifted, and the only thing to do here is to work out the wording of the correct warning(s) the editor(s) should receive, outlining the conduct to be avoided, and linking to the ARBSCI remedy in question. AE must go by the book, and be seen to go by the book; otherwise it is just vigilante justice. Someone will no doubt say that admins could apply any sanction they liked under the earlier 2007 COFS case's remedy, and that if the 2009 remedy doesn't suit, one could be using the 2007 article probation to apply sanctions not envisaged by the 2009 case. I don't find that convincing. --JN466 11:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Attn. Timotheus Canens Timotheus, I concur with Jehochman, below, and am really grateful to you for your diligence and attention to process detail. Delicious Carbuncle should be warned about two things: Adding a poor-quality source to a Scientology-related BLP Edit-warring to keep it in the article. Neither should recur. Apart from that, Delicious Carbuncle does not deserve to be warned for having raised good-faith content and policy concerns about Cirt's editing. No editor should be prohibited from raising such concerns in good faith. In this particular case, several editors and admins feel these concerns may have merit, and that is something for the community or this board to look at and decide at some point in the future. --JN466 13:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Scott MacDonald re BLP issues I don't care about AE, Scientology or who Canvassed whom, but I do care about BLPs. I make no bones about the fact that I read on Misplaced Pages Review that Cirt was POV pushing on Scientology matters, so I took a look. I came to the article Jamie Sorrentini, which Cirt had created and maintained. The article was clearly not neutral, it was puffed in every imaginable way (see this version). I don't normally worry about over-positive BLPs, but I googled around and (fairly unreliable) sources identified her connection to Scientology. The blogosphere indicates she's now an noted ex-scientologist (although, again, the sources are unreliable. The article didn't mention Scientology at all, but I wondered about Cirt's motivation and neutrality, so I performed a moderate clean-up, removing some of the puffery. I was met with Cirt's aggressive ownership of the article, and his fairly aggressive attitude when I sought uninvolved input on the BLPNB. Cirt is obviously NOT neutral on such BLPs. It was at this point DC added info to the bio claiming she was a scientologist. The material was a clear BLP violation, and poorly sourced. (More worryingly it presented her as a Scientologist when it appears she is no longer one.) I supported Cirt in the removal of it. See the discussion here However, it appears that DC's motivation was pointed, since Cirt had used exactly the same source on a number of occasions to label living people as Scientologists. So Cirt's objection to it here was hypocritical. See the important discussion here. The Wikipoltics and personalities here are not interesting. What's important is that Cirt is obviously pushing agendas in BLPs and that DC is willing to breach the BLP policy to make a point in response. Cut to the chase: Arbcom ought to ban DC and Cirt from all Scientology related BLPs. We can't have people pushing agendas or fighting wikibattles at the expense of the bios of living people.--Scott Mac 16:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Should we delete all of Cirt's featured articles related to Scientology? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Jehochman 16:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'm not suggesting we delete anything. I'm suggesting people with agendas don't push them on BLPs, and admins of Cirt's standing get zero tolerance here - there's no excuse. What doesn't make sense about that?--Scott Mac 16:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Cirt knows how to write proper articles. If you have concerns about specific edits, please file a report at WP:BLPN, or start a new enforcement request, rather than complicating this thread, which is not about Cirt. Let's focus on the sanction appeal. Jehochman 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Stop wikilawyering. I'm trying to set the context here, so we don't swallow camels and strain gnats. This discussion is too spread out and atomised as it is without me opening yet another thread.--Scott Mac 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC) This strikes me, from my own reading of the relevant threads to be an excellent and concise summary of events, please let me know if something was missed. I concur with Scott MacDonald's proposed remedy. u n☯mi 17:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I haven't commented much on the Cirt side of things so far, but I have to say I'm beginning to see some of these problems too. He may be a valuable contributor about the topic as a whole, but perhaps it would be good if he kept away from related BLPs. No opinion on whether this should be handled within this thread or yet somewhere else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by The Resident Anthropologist (talk) I agree with the topic ban and interaction ban whole heartedly, though I disagree with the imposed length of the bans. I think Carbuncle certainly set this up as the between his statements at Wikipeida Review suggest his pleading ignorance here is misdirection. That being said, I am uncomfortable with the way Furture Presents bans appear whether or not it is that way I am unsure. Short timeline 07:52, 8 December 2010 Cirt appropriately ANI thread on DC's BLP violations 22:47, 11 December 2010 First comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise 23:18, 11 December 2010 Secondd comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise quote "otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you. " 04:22, 13 December 2010 Cirt Issues request appropriately files an AE request 15:20, 13 December 2010 Cirt's appeals to Future perfect sunrise to intervene on his behalf at AE involving Jayen466 19:40, 13 December 2010 Future Perfect Sunrise issues a indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum." In the results section it clearly says: "This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above." To me this is not about whether DC deserved such remedies, but rather was it appropriate after being requested by Cirt to look at the AE and had been involved in ANI. The question is whether it was truly appropriate for him to consider himself as uninvolved to enforce such actions and whether he violated the WP:INVOLVED Clause of Admin regulations. Frankly I cannot but feel the entire situation is tainted by Future Perfects actions and cannot support these sanctions at this time Evidence Submitted by The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Another Statement The section Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle states: This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I feel it is inappropriate for people who have commented at ANI involved with this situation and who's enforcement is under question to be editing within that section The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC) As of 18:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I have yet to see any uninvolved Admins make a comment in the Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncleThe Resident Anthropologist (talk) You seem to have missed me. How do you think I am involved in this dispute? Jehochman 18:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC) apologies having reviewed your comments at ANI you are indeed correct. Above comment stricken The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Comment by GraemeL As an admin who became involved with the problems surrounding Delicious carbuncle when he moved his grievances to WP:BLPN, I threatened to block him for disruption and wrote here in support of sanctions against him. However, I think that the proposed remedy (being appealed here) was far too harsh, a permanent topic ban should only be used if he continues to try and forum shop and cause disruption to other editors and other (more lenient) sanctions fail to change his behaviour. That said, I think the current proposed sanctions, while in the correct order of magnitude, are (as is being argued by some non-involved admins) on the side of being too lenient, but feel that the current discussions below seem to be zeroing in on an more appropriate response to this editors behaviour. --GraemeL 20:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by u n☯mi On reading through some of the numerous and massive threads on this it seems to me that a picture emerges of Cirt being entirely too engaged in our Scientology related articles, to the point where niceties such as proper sourcing and intellectual integrity is thrown to the wind. For a primer see ANI Case study one. Have a look at the initial article Cirt created, as was noted on ANI, it certainly smacks of a preoccupation with scientology, rather than writing good articles. Then note ANI Case study two, where it seems clear that Cirt is not only following the blog but is all but acting as an agent of it, for lack of better words. I took a random jump into Cirts edit history, landing on March, this year, Cirt is very prolific, but I don't think it is too difficult to conclude that there is a pattern that emerges, almost all the articles have a relationship to Scientology. Many of the edits are, taken individually, benign, a fluff word here, removing trivially verifiable information, here, and closing an Afd that has some connection to scientology as keep, here (beckett media discontinued a magazine on neopets ( apparently a product by a company with connections to scientology ). There are numerous edits like these. I do get the impression that the decision on whether a gossip column should be considered an RS for BLP depends on whether the subject is judged to be pro or con Scientology and if the source is positive or negative, always with the result that subjects that Cirt considers to be 'pro scientologists' are put in negative light, or their accomplishments diminished. Note that considering the source that got this whole thing started, Cirt participated in an RfC in 2007 that found it unreliable, here (his nick was smee), yet he himself adds it here in 2009, albeit as an external link. Consider the manner of conflict resolution employed by Cirt throughout this situation. In the RS/N discussion, here, there is a very quick move to open this ANI thread, over something that frankly would hardly merit AN3, 15 minutes after the 3rd addition by DC. Then, shortly after DC starts posting specific issues at ANI, Cirt opens the initial AE thread with an assortment of charges, including forum shopping, though as near as I can tell, the posts by DC simply invited comment at the ANI thread regarding the issues raised, yet Cirt engages in rather blatant canvassing. This statement by Cirt is particularly ironic considering that he himself just opened first RSN then ANI and then an AE: "The problem is there has been no prior attempts by Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) at dispute resolution or attempts to resolve the matter through discussion. Rather, instead the user repeatedly chooses to escalate the issues directly, and engage in disruption across multiple pages. -- Cirt (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)". Within the threads themselves, Cirt seems to say almost nothing, indeed it is unnecessary for him to do so as long as there is an unwillingness of the participants to look at the heart of the matter, and less so when there is what amounts to active distraction from it. My own interpretation is that DC did indeed set out to make a case against Cirt, but frankly it seems a case that needed to be made. Within that interpretation I have believe that DC did in fact not intend to leave the BLP with a poorly sourced statement of fact. I should also say that any perceived 'disruption' would be down to Cirts strategy of escalation rather than engagement. In light of this understanding I find the initial AE result missing the mark. There have been a number of suggestions regarding a change of venue for looking at possibly problematic behavior by Cirt, but that is not necessary, the actions of all involved parties is open for investigation and sanction. I don't at the moment remember any prior involvement with Cirt. I don't care much for scientology, I think it is a shame that people can't rest in themselves more, nonetheless I am compelled to speak out against what I read as trying to 'right great wrongs' by way of manipulation, wikilawyering and other tactics meant to sustain a POV rather than engage in open discussion. Especially considering that, unless there is a previous account, Cirt joined wikipedia precisely to engage Scientology see first contributions, such as this (which, if duly sourced and written in a more encyclopedic tone, is an edit I approve wholeheartedly of and sympathize with). The question isn't whether Cirt is fighting 'the good fight', it is if he is fighting it in a manner where there is one. I don't think that we as a community are really mature enough to deal with half measures when it comes to people that can command as much influence as Cirt seems to. I urge you to consider a topic ban on anything related to scientology for Cirt, and either apply it for the same duration for DC or lift it altogether for DC until an actual problem manifests itself. There are plenty of other topics available for editors of their caliber. u n☯mi 21:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC) I just came across this exchange with GraemeL which, to my mind, reads as nothing more than an attempt to have DC removed post haste, and a similar one with FisherQueen, note that this is regarding ANI, and prior to the AE round of canvassing. u n☯mi 22:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) It seems that for the initial ANI thread FisherQueen, GraemeL, Jayron32, and HelloAnnyong all got tapped with neutral, non-campaigning notifications. u n☯mi 23:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Littleolive oil No matter the perceived questionable behaviour of either of these editors, haphazard application of arbitration remedies is not an acceptable way of dealing with the issues. If either of these editors was not warned and although I've been following this discussion, I'm not up on this case to know if they were or not, neither should be sanctioned at this time. We most emphatically cannot and must not ignore the due process as outlined by arbitration, otherwise mob rule takes another step in ruling and controlling Misplaced Pages. And it doesn't matter if the so-called-mob is perceived to be right or wrong. (olive (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Delicious carbuncle Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. I believe the sanction is unnecessary. However, using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious. If that fact is relevant to the biography, surely it would be reported by a reliable secondary source. The consensus appears to be against using this source. DC will you abide by the consensus even if you don't agree with it? Cirt, will you drop the matter? Jehochman 16:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'm afraid your comment partly misses the mark: D.c. has already agreed that the source is inappropriate. The issue is that it very much appears he knew from the start it was not only inappropriate in general, but also outdated in this particular case, and he only used it in a deliberate POINT maneuvre to create an opportunity for lampooning the fact that Cirt had used the same source previously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I don't see any evidence that what DC did was malicious. Simply treat it as a mistake, ask him to stop, and if he agrees, the matter is resolved. Jehochman 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Given the fact that this was part of a long-standing personalized conflict with Cirt, as documented on Wikipediareview and elsewhere, and – whatever his beliefs about the concrete details of the facts of that bio at any one time – the whole episode was clearly manifactured on his part, with the main goal not of improving the biography but of provoking and setting up his opponent, I'm afraid I cannot muster this amount of AGF here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I think (assuming as much good faith as I can) this was a BLP violation performed to out Cirt's use of the same dubious source on a number of articles.--Scott Mac 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Can we please stop making a mountain out of a molehill. A source was disputed. This minor dispute was escalated needlessly, causing several lengthy and unproductive discussions. Would you all please try to work together. Failing that, I support dishing out blocks for WP:BATTLE to those who want to keep fighting. Jehochman 17:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Are you threatening me with a block, for handing out an arbitration enforcement sanction and defending it afterwards?! You've got some nerve. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Not unless you are fighting. Are you? Jehochman 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC) As far as I'm concerned, I am having a collegial discussion with you. Or I would be, if it wasn't for the fact that you suddenly turned against me with childish threats. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I think you misunderstood me. Read what I wrote carefully and assume good faith, instead of assuming the worst. Jehochman 17:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Jehochman! Where the fuck did that come from? We're tying to work out what's going on here and how we best enforce neutrality wrt Scientology, which is the point of the whole arbcom case. Threatening to block people for raising related issues you don't like is ridiculous aggression. Block me for that, I'll block you back, and then we'll all be blocked. Knock it off - this is schoolboy bullying WP:BATTLE tactics at their lowest..--Scott Mac 17:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Can you make your point without cursing and name-calling? Jehochman 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Gents, please. I think you've all misunderstood each other and, of not, should resolve this on your own talk pages. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Proposed resolutions Short blocks to those disputants who continue to battle after being warned by any uninvolved administrator. Overturn sanction on DC, and instead issue a warning not to use dubious primary sources in WP:BLP articles. I support these both. Jehochman 17:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I support the blocks, but a warning is just too lenient. I'm going to suggest a medium term (maybe a couple of months) ban on editing BLPs related to scientology and on adding material related to scientology to other BLPs and maybe a mutual interaction ban. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Scott Mac's evidence demonstrates the problem cuts both ways. This discussion is illuminative. I suggest both Cirt and DC are topic-banned from BLPs within the topic area for two months. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'd support that. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 20:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - this discussion has clearly and unambiguously demonstrated the wisdom of its original imposition, whether the decision was as uninvolved as ideal or not. I believe that we don't need a new sanction to block disruptive editors. I support launching a User RFC on Cirt and Scientology edits to determine if there's good evidence for a real problem or not - this discussion here is generating far too much heat and little light to be of rational value in determining that, and it's not the right venue in any case. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC) This is within an area of conflict in which discretionary sanctions apply. The correct place to discuss Cirt's behaviour within the area of conflict is here, not in yet another forum. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - We have not sufficiently discussed other editors to hand out further sanction. A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Misplaced Pages Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games. It appears that we have a lot of personality conflicts and people need to get back to writing content rather than biting each other. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Are you purporting to be an "uninvolved administrator"? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC) In that I do not / have not edited pages on Scientology ~~and you?~~ Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I just wanted to clarify - because you've made "above the line" statements in the original AE and on the appeal, and you appear to have quite clear views, I am not sure whether you consider yourself involved or uninvolved. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Ah yes was not aware of the significance of the line :-) A number of people including Future posted above and below. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'm going to have to argue for shortening this one. According to WP:ARBSCI, "If the editor fails to heed the warning, the editor may be topic banned, initially, for three months, then with additional topic bans increasing in duration to a maximum of one year." I'm not seeing anything in that decision to authorise an indef topic ban as imposted. That said, I find DC's behaviour worthy of the sanction authorised. Courcelles 20:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC) The consensus appears to be that DC's topic ban is upheld. Per WP:ARBSCI, this being the first infraction, the ban length is three months, per Courcelles. As for Cirt, this thread is an appeal of a sanction. It is not going to impose a sanction on Cirt, without prejudice to somebody starting a separate thread where evidence of misbehavior by Cirt may be put forward and Cirt given a chance to respond. Finally, if editors involved in this dispute decide to carry on in other venues, they are risking a possible block for WP:BATTLE. If the next administrator, who has not commented here yet, would be so kind as to close the thread, that would be appreciated. Jehochman 21:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC) There is precedent and mandate for imposing restrictions on Cirt if necessary. Per Scott's summary, they seem necessary to me. Topic ban both of them for the same length of time. Note: I don't think this is closable yet, as there is open business. ++Lar: t/c 21:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'm inclined to agree that whatever sanction is imposed on one should be the same for the other, but I think a ban on editing scientology-related BLPs and adding scientology-related information to other BLPs better gets to the crux of the disruption. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 22:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Perhaps a more precise BLP ban is better, I could go either way, as long as it's on both folk at the least, and not just DC. ++Lar: t/c 23:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I'm with HJ Mitchell on this one. All sanctions in this case should be bilateral, and include a mutual interaction ban. That would stop all of the silliness we have seen. Perhaps a community-based restriction discussion at WP:AN would be an appropriate venue, if this isn't it? --Jayron32 22:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) --- ~~This editor is highly involved and is not allowed to post here. Jehochman 22:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)~~ Involved or not, Jayron raises some good points, but I don't think moving back to AN is the right thing to do. ++Lar: t/c 23:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC) My bad, this is Jayron32, not Jayen466. I confused the two. Jayron is uninvolved as far as I know. Many apologies! Jehochman 01:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict)Agree with both Lar and HJ. It is well-established that AE can consider the actions of all relevant parties, including the filer of the AE. There is no reason not to extend that principle to appeals. Discretionary sanctions don't even need to arise from AEs to begin with - they can be imposed at any administrator's discretion. Given that Cirt is an admin, and the clear evidence that he/she attempted to procure a favourable result at the AE by improper canvassing, we need to be all the more careful not to create an impression of flick-passing this to other venues.--Mkativerata (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC) (undent) It seems like we have a group of people using Misplaced Pages Review to solicit support for criticizing Crit. Here we find User:Lar and User:Jayen466 for example. Measures may need to be expanded a bit beyond these two to address off site attacks. BTW is Misplaced Pages Review counted as WP:CANVASSING? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC) To be fair, I'm not seeing Lar engage in Cirt-related discussion, let alone lobbying, in that discussion. He seems to have been talking about something else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC) True but the thread is labeled "Cirt revisited" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I am really uneasy about this group of editors showing up here in the uninvolved section lobbying for new sanctions in an appeal. Cirt hasn't been presented with evidence of wrongdoing, and hasn't been given a chance to respond. This is irregular and improper, and if it continues, I will ask ArbCom to scrutinize the behavior of all concerned. Jehochman 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Yes Cirt has. And I'm very happy for you report me to arbcom for whatever imaginary things you've already threatened to block me for. Beware the boomerang though. I don't see your reaction here as indicating disinterest or neutrality.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I don't think we need Arbcom. If there is a need for more systematic scrutiny regarding Cirt, a User RfC would be the obvious choice, and if that results in serious concerns, sanctioning can still happen under the ARBSCI rules. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC) In fairness to Cirt, if somebody thinks there is a problem, please put together the evidence and start a thread. This thread is very noisy and disorganized. It is not proper to sanction an editor who has generated lots of high quality content without giving them a fair chance to respond to concerns. Jehochman 22:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Per the evidence above, I strongly support the view that Cirt's long term bias in this area merits at least as long a BLP topic ban as DC's one violation. Violating BLP to prove a point as DC did is poor, but the point is itself not a bad one.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Looking at Misplaced Pages review it appears that it is only possible do determine who some of the people commenting are. We do however have previously involved by User:Jayen466 and User: Delicious carbuncle while User:Lar commented on the threat but not really about Cirt. Is there anyway to determine if others here are also involved with what appears to be a coordinated effort over there? Also Scott Mac appears involved Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Involved in what? The only thing I'm ever involved with these days is concerns about BLP. I've presented evidence of Cirt's problematic attitude to BLP editing here. It is probably best to defend Cirt by rebutting the charge, rather than hunting for conspiracies. Nice attempt to deflect, but it doesn't wash.--Scott Mac 23:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC) You have been involved with editing the page that this whole thing is about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC) So?--Scott Mac 23:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Precisely. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC) @Doc James: If we're going to start flinging tar with a broad brush (to mix metaphors) I think it's possible your own actions need further scrutiny, actually. That said, I think trying to claim I'm involved because I commented on a person who commented on Cirt is a bit of a stretch. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC) @Lar yes I have acknowledged that above. Your not really involved. I only brought this up as if we are going to address canvassing a few more people may be involved. We all really need to get back to editing though and I do not think this is place to deal with it.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Assuming it's not to late to say so, I think the 2 resolutions above are quite reasonable. If the topic and/or interaction ban is intended to quell the drama, I also support applying it to both parties (applying to one or another seems unlikely to have much of a quelling effect). --SB_Johnny \| 23:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Hi. This is an appeal by DC. It's pretty clear that the restriction needs to be reduced to 3 months to accord with WP:ARBSCI. Other than that, if people feel other editors need sanctioning, please start a thread, and include diffs. It is not fair to sanction somebody without showing them the evidence and giving them a chance to respond. Handwaving statements like he's just as bad don't make the cut. Also, anybody filing a complaint should disclose any history they have with the other editor(s). Thank you. Jehochman 01:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Sorry, I don't agree with that. AE has a wide mandate, and if the original case had an incorrect outcome (Cirt didn't get any sanctions) the appeal process can fix that. Don't insist on needless paperwork. Also, you raised the "Cirt hasn't seen the evidence/hasn't had a chance to respond" already and it was rebutted. ++Lar: t/c 01:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Where is the evidence against Cirt? Where is Cirt's response. Please don't try to steamroll somebody like this. It is not fair and I will not stand for it. Jehochman 01:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC) The relevant remedy states that "Prior to topic banning the editor, the administrator will leave a message on the editor's talk page, linking to this paragraph, warning the editor that a topic ban is contemplated and outlining the behaviours for which it is contemplated" (emphasis mine). Was such a warning (with the link, explicitly stating that a topic ban was contemplated, and outlining the disruptive behavior) given to either Cirt or DC? If so, can someone provide diffs? T. Canens (talk) 01:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC) D.c. was warned by Jayron here and by multiple people, including myself, in the course of the preceding ANI discussions. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy, not even when it comes to Arbcom enforcement. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC) That warning neither stated that a topic ban was contemplated (it only says that the user may be blocked), nor linked to the specific remedy authorizing a topic ban (but only a general link to WP:ARBSCI), nor outlined the objectionable conduct (indeed, it deliberately avoided the question whether the edits mentioned are objectionable). It does not satisfy the requirement in the remedy. This remedy's warning provision is much more explicit than the usual discretionary sanctions provisions, and the sanction authorized (only topic bans) is also much more limited.They generally require only that "rior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions" (from WP:DSN; similar wording can be found in WP:ARBAA2, WP:ARB911, WP:ARBCC, and so on), some may add that the warning needs to be given by an uninvolved administrator; all of these, moreover, authorize blocks, revert restrictions, as well as any other measure the enforcing administrator deems necessary. In this case, however, the applicable remedy provides for a single sanction, and requires a very specific warning: it must link to the section authorizing the topic ban, indicate that a topic ban is being contemplated, and describe the conduct found objectionable. Our authority to enforce an arbcom decision comes only from the delegation of authority contained in that decision, and we are powerless to depart from its terms when taking action under its authority. Further, individual administrators do not have the authority, independent of arbcom, to impose topic bans; that power lies with the community. Unless prior warnings in compliance with the requirements in the remedy were given, I am of the view that the sanction at issue must be lifted, because no administrator was authorized to impose it in the first place. T. Canens (talk) 07:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC) D.c. had previously explicitly acknowledged he knew about the sanctions rule, and he knew is own conduct was being critically reviewed under it. The rest (about specific links to specific sections needing to be posted in specific places, no less!) ist bureaucratic red tape. WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY is policy, and as such binding even to Arbcom and our way of interpreting and enforcing Arbcom decisions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC) That section deals with interpretation of policies, guidelines and similar material - it is understood that they are generally descriptive, not prescriptive, thus it is inappropriate to seize on the letter of the wording because it is the spirit that reflects the community consensus they document. An arbcom remedy is neither a policy nor a guideline; it does not "document already existing community consensus", and indeed may not be amended by community consensus (the community does not have the power to overturn an arbcom ban, for example), and nor do we have the power to remove arbcom's instruction creep, if it is indeed instruction creep. We simply cannot use the power given to us by arbcom to enforce its decisions to place bans that are inconsistent with their plain language. T. Canens (talk) 07:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC) I would favor revoking the existing sanction against DC. There is another question regarding the possibility of placing a sanction against both Cirt and DC. Personally, without commenting on the reasonableness of such an idea, I really do not think that this is necessarily the best place to have such a discussion. The amount of material which could be presented and potentially responded to in such a discussion is, to my eyes anyway, probably way too long to be able to be included in this page without making the page unduly long for some editors. I would myself at least favor creating a separate subpage for such a discussion. I also think that, if such is to be done, starting the discussion over with the presentation of the evidence against the various parties would be in everyone's best interests. But this section is really getting unduly long as is, and would doubtless get even longer if we were to fairly discuss application of sanctions against Cirt. John Carter (talk) 18:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Result of appeal by Delicious carbuncle, section 2 Timotheus, could you leave Delicious carbuncle a note linking to Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Discretionary_topic_ban and ask them to confirm that they understand what the concerns are. Additionally, could you strike the sanction on DC logged at WP:ARBSCI, because it clearly failed to follow the prescribed process? I agree with you completely that arbitration remedies must be applied according to process. Improvisation is not allowed (unlike most situations on Misplaced Pages). As for Cirt, if an uninvolved administrator wants to compile evidence of problematic editing and leave a warning, that would be fine. I will specifically caution those who were canvassed by Cirt, those who've been discussing this on Misplaced Pages Review, and those who've been advocating for out-of-process sanctions, to please recuse from any administrative action. Any editor is welcome to file an arbitration enforcement request if they feel that an arbitration remedy has been violated. Jehochman 11:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Not acceptable. See above. Scott Mac references it when he said "per the evidence above". Review it please. We need the same thing applied to Cirt as DC. Or more. And stop casting aspersions on participants. ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Sorry, the arbitration remedy is very clear that sanctions cannot be applied until after the mandatory warning. As I've said, any uninvolved administrator is welcome to copy the evidence and issue the warning. I'm not going to do any of this myself because I don't want to cause more controversy. Jehochman 15:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC) 82kbs later, I'm not sure I'm totally clear on whats going on here, but I've been able to pull the following issues out: Delicious carbuncle's sanction may have been given without a warning. Delicious carbuncle's off-wiki comments are being used as evidence of bias There is a concern that Cirt's editing patterns in the Scientology area are insufficiently neutral to be allowed to edit in BLPs because of the heightened stakes in BLPs Ditto for Delicious Carbuncle Apparently there is a suggestion that ArbCom ban both Cirt and Delicious Carbuncle from Scientology related BLPS, which seems like an odd thing to use AE for, as we're short on Arbitrators. Several administrators (who I respect a great deal for their long standing dedication to Misplaced Pages and her* goals) have interacted... acrimoniously with each other. Separately, statements such as "I am out to expose X as the Y that I believe X to be" suggest a battlefield mentality wholly inappropriate for a collaborative environment. Anyway, are we talking about a pattern of edits across multiple BLPs, or are we talking about the Jamie Sorrentini article exclusively? What, if anything have I missed?--Tznkai (talk) 05:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)her, as in the Good Ship Misplaced Pages Please confirm actual result of appeal* I note that Tim hasn't removed DC's sanction as requested by Jehochman, and Future Perfect has removed an AE filing by DC on the grounds that the sanction is still in place. Without commenting on the merits or otherwise of DCs attempted filing, can we please clarify which of three outcomes discussed above applies The appeal has failed The appeal has succeeded and the sanction has been modified from 'in perpetuity' to 'for 3 months' The sanction has been overturned due to a failure of process and should be removed from the list. Thanks --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC) I think it's option three. The process on this stinks all the way around. Overturn without prejudice against an uninvolved admin giving a proper, ARBSCI compliant warning. DC's conduct was bad, but we can't cite NOTBURO and sidestep clear requirements from ArbCom- that makes individual admins too powerful. Courcelles 12:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Noting that I still stand by my assessment with respect to the objective justification of the sanction, I cannot of course stand in the way of my colleagues if they value the formalities of the warning procedures higher than I did. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Thanks for that, I will strike the sanction from the record on grounds of technical non compliance with procedure. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Sanction overturned on technical grounds (prescribed prior steps regarding warning were not followed as laid down)--Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Appealing user: Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed: "n indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum", imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Delicious_carbuncle. Also discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Potential WP:CANVASSING by User:Cirt.

Administrator imposing the sanction: Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Delicious carbuncle

Let me first set the record straight on a few points which seem to have been misunderstood:

Status of Jamie Sorrentini as a Scientologist

There appears to be some confusion about whether or not Jamie Sorrentini is or is not a Scientologist. Since off-wiki postings have been brought into this, it is odd that they were not read and understood. I believe this posting by Tizano Lugli (Sorrentini's husband) says that they are still Scientologists. Much of that posting is written in incomprehensible jargon, but that is my sincere belief. At the time I didn't understand that one could be a Scientologist and not be part of the Church of Scientology, but I have since been informed that this situation is not unique.

www.truthaboutscientology.com as a reliable source

When Cirt first reverted my addition to Sorrentini's bio, their edit summary was "rmv source that fails WP:RS in a WP:BLP page". Given my views on Cirt's editing of CoS-related articles, I was reluctant to take that assertion at face value. Discussion of sources usually happens at WP:RSN, so I had no objection to Cirt starting a discussion there. What I objected to was the removal of the source from Sorrentini's bio -- and only Sorrentini's bio -- while that discussion was still in progress. (The removal of the source from articles occurred after I had already indicated on the article's talk page my acceptance for my edits to be reverted, but that I felt it was inappropriate for Cirt to do so.)

Immediately after starting the discussion at RSN, Cirt posted links to it in 3 other noticeboards (, , & ). While I am not accusing Cirt of canvassing in this instance, it seems reasonable to assume that this would draw editors whose interests relate to religion rather than sourcing. There is now consensus about the use of this source and I am happy to go along with that consensus. In retrospect, I should not have re-added the information and I understand why it is being labelled as "pointy".

BLP violations on Sorrentini's bio

HJ Mitchell refers to my addition of the source as "an egregious violation of BLP". How so? The source was being used in other BLPs at the time I added it to Sorrentini's bio. There was no consensus against using the source. Although Cirt more than once made the claim that there was consensus against using this source, that is simply not true. When asked to produce a link to this consensus, Cirt linked to a discussion from 2007 which was inconclusive and in which they, then editing as User:Smee, expressed support for using the source.

I'm not sure how I was supposed to know in advance of a discussion at RSN (let alone a consensus being reached), that I should not be using a source already used in other BLPs (and in fact added to some of those BLPs by the very person who was objecting to its use on a biography that they created).

My involvement with Scientology

I have no involvement with Scientology. This isn't about Scientology, it is about the even application of our policies and guidelines. Anyone who believes that anything I have written on-wiki or off-wiki shows a pro-Scientology viewpoint is simply mistaken.

I wish to appeal these sanctions on the following grounds:

In imposing this sanction, Future Perfect states that I "knew" that Sorrentini was not a Scientologist and so my edits to her BLP were "a deliberate BLP violation". I do not know this and I believe that the opposite is true.
Future Perfect further states "D.c.'s professions that he allegedly was not aware about any dispute about her membership don't sound plausible". I say in that diff "No one has disputed that Sorrentini is a Scientologist". To be clear, what I was saying was that there was no dispute about the facts, only the sourcing of those facts, hence I didn't see the urgency in removing the information. At that time no one had disputed the assertion. If Cirt has expressed an opinion on the matter, I have not yet seen it.
Cirt canvassed admins in an attempt to have me blocked. When that didn't work, they canvassed admins to direct them to the Arbitration Enforcement request. Future Perfect was one of those canvassed.
Future Perfect commented in the ANI thread that precipitated this request. Their support of Cirt was quite apparent at that time. I believe it was inappropriate for them to have imposed sanctions.
Aside from Jamie Sorrentini, I am not aware of having edited any CoS-related articles. Although I am accusing Cirt of an anti-Scientology bias, I have no position on Scientology-related articles other than in relation to our policies and guidelines. While I have no objection to Cirt filing an RFC/U about my allegations -- in fact, I would welcome it -- my part in this should not fall under ARBSCI and I feel this is simply another attempt on Cirt's part to prevent me from expressing what have proven to be valid concerns judging from the edits made thus far to the articles I have singled out.

Thank you for your time. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Future Perfect at Sunrise: - I really do not understand your statement. As I have stated above, I believe Sorrentini to be a Scientologist based on the words of her husband. I believed that when I identified her as such in her bio. The information from her husband was in the off-wiki discussion you linked to in the original AE request. I am not sure why you are confused about this.

Yes, I believe Cirt created the article because Sorrentini and her husband have split from the Church of Scientology. Further, I believe that Cirt's objection to the sourcing was based on a desire to exclude information about Sorrentini's former connection to the CoS. As I have shown in the ANI thread, Cirt has added that source to several articles. As I have also shown in the ANI thread, Cirt failed to remove the source from several CoS-related articles that they had edited in the last few months. When did Cirt decide it was not a reliable source, and why did they make no effort to remove it from BLPs until I added it to Sorrentini's bio?

Why would I have any knowledge of prior discussions about the reliability of the source? I have not participated in them. I have not edited Scientology articles. I am fresh to the topic area. Which discussion would tell me that the source was not reliable? Cirt could not provide one to back their claim that there was consensus against using it. Not only is it impossible for me to prove my ignorance, there isn't even a consensus of which I can be ignorant. Your accusation is simply nonsense.

As for "this particular combination of a Misplaced Pages hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic", I do not consider a bluntly frank ANI thread to be "hounding", but I make no apologies for the former - I am out to expose Cirt as the anti-Scientology POV-pusher that I believe them to be. Their actions are harmful to Misplaced Pages and the time has come for them to stop. Which BLP violations are you referencing here? I have made none in this situation, but I have pointed out many made by Cirt.

You clearly do not have a grasp on the facts of the matter. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Future Perfect, it is quite evident from your replies that you have chosen to take Cirt at their word, but to dismiss anything I say as questionable. Your bias likely springs from the fact that I am "attacking" a fellow admin.

You are correct that the citation I added to Sorrentini's bio identified her as a member of the CoS. At the time I was not aware that one could be a "Scientologist" outside of the CoS, but I had read Tizano Lugli's piece declaring them to be "Scientologists". My understanding, therefore, was that they had reconsidered their split from the CoS. I now know this not to be the case. My good-faith belief at that time was that she was a member of the CoS. My good-faith belief now is that she is a Scientologist (but not associated with the CoS, except as a critic). I have tried to make the present situation clear, since I suspect I am not the only one who did not know that there were independent Scientologists.

Keeping up with Cirt's edits would require at least two people. I am only one person and I have better things to do. Here's my method:

Look at a list of articles created by Cirt.
If the article is about Scientology, there is likely a BLP violation or two that needs fixing.
Look at the history,
If Cirt has edited the article, did they neglect to remove those BLP violations?
Did Cirt (or Smee) add the BLP violations?
Done. Next article.

You should try it. It could be interesting for you. Alternately, you could pick anything involving a well-known Scientologist and see what edits Cirt has made. Take Knight and Day. Start here. Now tell me there's no problem here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 09:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to DocJames: You seem to be saying that you have concerns about things that were published off-wiki about Cirt - this is a discussion about enforcement of ARBSCI sanctions. Are you in the right room? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

DocJames, you state that "A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Misplaced Pages Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games", as if I am representing Misplaced Pages Review in some capacity and as if a forum with hundreds of members holds one opinion about this (or anything). It appears that your opinions expressed here have nothing to do with the matter at hand, but are based on a dislike of that forum. When I posted a list of anti-CoS Wikinews articles created by Cirt in the original ANI thread, it was collapsed by one of their supporters because it dealt with off-wiki edits even though it is a sister project. I find it odd that so much attention is being given here to a particular forum which is independent of Misplaced Pages and functions under its own set of rules and guidelines. Attempts to impose Misplaced Pages's rules on off-wiki sites are misguided and unproductive but some people do not seem to be able to resist their inclination to try. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

DocJames, you keep harping on about Misplaced Pages Review. Should all Misplaced Pages editors who have contributed to that forum declare themselves to be involved and recuse themselves from this discussion? Do you have an account there? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes all editors who have been discussing Cirt over at WP REVIEW and calling for action are involved. You can find my edits under my user name. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Jehochman: Jehochman, I have already agreed at RSN that the source is unreliable and it should go without saying that I will not use it again. I would not have chosen to use it had it not already been in use at other BLPs. In fact, I cut and pasted most of the citation from where it was used at that time in the BLP of Alexandra Powers to save myself some typing. You have perhaps missed an important detail in all of this. www.truthaboutscientology.com is not a CoS website. In fact, it is the website of someone who is a critic of Scientology (and also runs a site called Scientology Lies). The information contained in the site is drawn from CoS publications.

This is an important point so I will try my best to make it clear to those willing to listen. Jehochman says "using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious". In actual fact, the use of CoS sources to establish that someone is a Scientologist seems to be common. I believe in some cases those sources are websites with testimonials from the individual, but often the sources are publications which are not available online. It is not clear to me if CoS publications are reliable sources or not since I have no familiarity with them. Cirt's POV-pushing is really just the tip of the iceberg with regard to CoS-related BLP issues, but nothing will likely change while they are free to edit CoS articles.

Incidentally, you appear to have been one of the editors to add allegations of spamming to Speedyclick.com, one of the CoS-related (or formerly CoS-related) articles discussed at ANI. That section has been removed since the Spamhaus links are no longer functional. I didn't get a chance to ask you before my topic ban, but if you recall the circumstances of the Spamhaus records, perhaps you could reinstate that section with other sources? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman, Cirt has had plenty of opportunity to reply to my charges, first at the ANI thread, then at the AE, and now at this appeal. I am quite prepared to file a request for sanctions against Cirt here if the community deems that appropriate, but I do not think that should be necessary given the amount of evidence I have already presented. My experiences with you have shown that you present yourself as a polite voice of reason and suggest that we all calmly let the current situation dissipate and then address the issues at other venues, all the while making it clear that you are willing to block editors who do not go along with your polite and reasonable suggestions. I have yet to see any case where the root cause has been addressed after the immediate dispute is put aside, usually with measures in place to ensure that the participants cannot do so themselves. I have no faith that Cirt will be sanctioned if they are not sanctioned in this current proceeding and I am unable to bring any action due to my own sanctions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Questions regarding sanctions: I am concerned that these sanctions will prevent me from addressing BLP issues that I identified while looking at CoS-related articles over this past few days. GraemeL has already threatened to block me for bringing those BLP problems to the BLP noticeboard, so I would like to be clear on which activities are proscribed by these sanctions. Can I raise issues at BLPN? Can I edit articles created or edited by Cirt but unrelated to Scientology? Can I edit articles which were formerly associated with Scientology but have been removed from that category? For example, I was planning to nominate Alexandra Powers for deletion. Can I request ARBSCI enforcement based on Cirt's activities or must someone do that? It seems unlikely that anyone else will be willing to take that on. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Cirt's offer:

Cirt, while I can appreciate Jehochman's suggestions and your show of goodwill in extending this offer, I must decline it for the following reasons:

My concerns are related to BLP and POV issues, not Scientology. While working on an article about a book by CoS founder L Ron Hubbard may improve our working relationship, I do not think it is relevant to the issues I have raised. Perhaps we could work together on something completely unrelated to Scientology when this is resolved.
I have presented evidence at ANI of a long-term pattern of POV-pushing and anti-Scientology activities because it is my sincere belief that you hold a bias that prevents you from fairly applying our policies and guidelines. I do no think it is appropriate or helpful to reframe this as a personal dispute between two editors which can be solved through discussion on your talk page.
Having publicly raised my concerns, I believe it would be unfair to you if you did not have an opportunity to publicly rebut them. Your comments thus far at WP:ANI, WP:BLPN, and WP:AE appear to be attempts to limit discussion of the underlying issues rather than addressing them.
You have stated that your reason for canvassing admins to impose sanctions on me at the arbitration request you started was due to your frustration over critical statements made by another editor. I cannot understand this statement to mean anything other than that you were deliberately attempting to limit discussion which was critical of your actions. I think this is both grossly inappropriate for an admin and indicative of your unwillingness to directly address valid concerns.
Even in the article you use as an example of your successful collaboration with other editors on CoS-related articles, you are merely demonstrating your lack of perspective. On Michael Doven, a good-faith edit attempt to separate the subject's professional career from their involvement with the CoS was made by another editor after I raised it at BLPN. You reverted it. Although some of the fluff has been removed, the article is still larded with a truly ridiculous number of gratuitous references to Scientology and Scientologists (including a reference in the lede to "the younger sister of musician Beck"). The reader is given the impression that Doven's success is inextricably linked to Scientology. This BLP should serve as an example of why I feel that I must file a request for arbitration enforcement.

I regret having to rebuff your outreach and I hope you understand this is not personally motivated. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise

I stand by my assessment expressed here . D.c. was, at the very least, insincere when he was claiming there was no dispute about that person being a Sc. member, because his whole motivation in even noticing that article was evidently because he felt Cirt had only written it because the subject had broken with Sc. Under these circumstances, his professions of innocence (begin "fresh to this" and not being aware of prior debates etc.) ring hollow: he deliberately fabricated this incident in order to gain an opportunity of exposing Cirt. It is this particular combination of a Misplaced Pages hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic and which, in my view, makes a long-term sanction necessary.

As to my being "involved": I'm not. I gave an administrative comment in the previous ANI thread, warning D.c. that I found his method of accusations problematic and that it made him liable to sanctions. Last time I looked, we are supposed to warn users before sanctioning them, right? – As for Cirt's posting on my page, as I said before, I didn't even read it, and if I had, it would naturally have made me more prejudiced against Cirt than against D.c. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Further to D.c.'s defense above: D.c. now entangles himself in self-contradictions. He claims he had reason to believe in good faith that J.S. still was a scientologist, despite the 2010 reports that she had left – but he was quoting a source from before the time she reportedly split, which under these circumstances he had to know was evidently irrelevant. He is also now making that distinction between being a CoS member and being a scientologist – but in his edits to the article he was unambiguously claiming CoS membership . As for being or not being aware of the backstory about the preceding discussions regarding the reliability of that website, D.c. had evidently spent a lot of time following Cirt's editing, over several months. He was able, within a day of the time the J.S. conflict was created, to cite numbers of instances where Cirt had been dealing with that source, even with articles where the link no longer was in the article (and would therefore not be findable through the external-links tool). The only way D.c. could have had of knowing about these cases was if he had systematically searched through all of Cirt's contributions. I simply don't believe he did all of that after deciding to spark off the D.J. kerfluffle, and I also don't believe he could collect all the instances where Cirt added or failed to remove that link, without becoming aware of the surrounding discussions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Cirt

Please see the initial AE report I had made about Deliciuos carbuncle - the evidence of that user's actions is all there. I admit that I was wrong to post in the manner in which I did about the user to multiple user talk pages. That was inappropriate, and it stemmed from my frustration over ongoing and repeated WP:WIKIHOUNDING against me by Jayen466 (talk · contribs), which has been a quite disturbing pattern for over three years now. I let Jayen466 (talk · contribs)'s WP:WIKIHOUNDING get the better of me, and I became frustrated and acted inappropriately. But the evidence I originally presented about Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) still stands as valid. -- Cirt (talk) 06:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment: In a discussion between Jehochman and Delicious carbuncle at User talk:Jehochman, Jehochman suggested that Delicious carbuncle and I should both try to move forward collaboratively together. Jehochman recommended jointly working on a quality improvement project - striving to bring an article's quality up to being ready for WP:GAC or even maybe WP:FAC. I have suggested this recommendation from Jehochman to Delicious carbuncle, in a post to User talk:Delicious carbuncle. I have recommended a quality improvement project on the book Slaves of Sleep, a book well-regarded that received positive reception about the writing of its author Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard; the book is even considered a science fiction "classic". Jehochman suggested including Jayen466 as well in this quality improvement effort. I would very much like to work with Jayen466 and Delicious carbuncle together collaboratively to improve the quality of the Misplaced Pages article on this book which is well-regarded in literary circles. It would be wonderful for the three of us and any other editors interested to try to refocus our efforts on improving the quality of an article within the topic, and making a good faith effort to move forward with bettering the quality of Misplaced Pages, together. :) -- Cirt (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Update: Unfortunately, Delicious carbuncle has refused my offer (see also edit summary) to work collaboratively together with him. The offer is still open. I'd very much like to work together with Delicious carbuncle to collaboratively improve the quality of a Misplaced Pages article on the topic to GA or FA. :) -- Cirt (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by DocJames

What DC has written off Misplaced Pages is inappropriate harassment A ban or further interaction with Cirt was not proposed because of a persistent pattern of inappropriate editing of Scientology article but for inappropriate behavior WRT another editor.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Griswaldo

I'm on record already, in more than one venue, regarding the inappropriate nature of these sanctions. I initiated Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? after a failed direct appeal to User:Future Perfect at Sunrise on their talk page to consider allowing a truly uninvolved admin do the job. It is important to look at the chain of events here.

Cirt files an AN/I about Delicious carbuncle's editing of Jamie Sorrentini.
Carbuncle decides to use the AN/I platform to air his various complaints about Cirt's POV editing of Scientology related entries.
Cirt contacts various admins to help him out at AN/I, but no remedies are enacted (for the canvassing evidence see here.
During this AN/I discussion Future Perfect levies the following criticism/threat at carbuncle - "If you feel those articles are problematic, then go and fix them, otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you."
After no remedies are found at AN/I Cirt takes the discussion to AE, and proceeds to contqact more admins (see above link), this time appealing directly to Future Perfect.
Future Perfect's first edits to the AE discussion are to impose sanctions on carbuncle.

The combination of 4, 5, and 6 above, in swift succession is disturbing to say the least. Future Perfect claims to be "uninvolved" and to not have read Cirt's appeal on his/her talk page, simply glancing at it as reminder of the AE. Well we cannot know that, nor can we know what Future Perfect's intentions were. All we know is that 1) Future Perfect issued a threat to carbuncle, 2) Cirt asked Future Perfect to come to AE, and 3) Future Perfect made good on his/her threat. If that isn't improper I don't know what is.

Then there is the matter of the sanction itself, which appears Draconian to say the least. How can you ban an editor from complaining about policy violations EVER? The supposed "interaction" ban imposed dissallows carbuncle from raising complaints about Cirt, in the area of Scientology. Really? No matter what you think of Cirt it appears to be common knowledge that Cirt has a very strong anti-Scientology POV. And now he gets a free pass from the criticism of an editor who beleives he has crossed the line? How on earth is that ever appropriate? In short I think Future Perfect erred rather egregiously here. I really wish they took my initial request with more humility and simply let someone else deal with this. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Question - Why is the sanctioning admin commenting in a section reserved for "uninvolved administrators"? Certainly at this point Future Perfect is no longer "uninvolved".Griswaldo (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jayen466

I propose that the original complaint be re-tried, by a quorum of at least five (5) administrators who have not been solicited by either party, and do not have a history of participation in arbitration cases involving cults. Any decision to reflect consensus among said admins, with a majority of four (4) required to take a decision. Does this sound fair? --JN466 14:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

That is not how AE works. We should not propose random arbitrary new procedures mid-case. -- Cirt (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

How does previous involvement with arbcom cases on cults have to do with anything? Would it be equally appropriate to find people who have never edited pseudoscience topics? OR been involved with BLPs? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe T. Canens is absolutely correct. Neither editor has received a warning as required by ARBSCI. In addition, DC made the BLP edits at issue before he was sort-of warned; he cannot be warned AND sanctioned for the same behaviour, without having repeated it after the warning. The sanction on DC should be lifted, and the only thing to do here is to work out the wording of the correct warning(s) the editor(s) should receive, outlining the conduct to be avoided, and linking to the ARBSCI remedy in question. AE must go by the book, and be seen to go by the book; otherwise it is just vigilante justice.
Someone will no doubt say that admins could apply any sanction they liked under the earlier 2007 COFS case's remedy, and that if the 2009 remedy doesn't suit, one could be using the 2007 article probation to apply sanctions not envisaged by the 2009 case. I don't find that convincing. --JN466 11:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Attn. Timotheus Canens

Timotheus, I concur with Jehochman, below, and am really grateful to you for your diligence and attention to process detail. Delicious Carbuncle should be warned about two things:

Adding a poor-quality source to a Scientology-related BLP
Edit-warring to keep it in the article.

Neither should recur. Apart from that, Delicious Carbuncle does not deserve to be warned for having raised good-faith content and policy concerns about Cirt's editing. No editor should be prohibited from raising such concerns in good faith. In this particular case, several editors and admins feel these concerns may have merit, and that is something for the community or this board to look at and decide at some point in the future. --JN466 13:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Scott MacDonald re BLP issues

I don't care about AE, Scientology or who Canvassed whom, but I do care about BLPs. I make no bones about the fact that I read on Misplaced Pages Review that Cirt was POV pushing on Scientology matters, so I took a look.

I came to the article Jamie Sorrentini, which Cirt had created and maintained. The article was clearly not neutral, it was puffed in every imaginable way (see this version). I don't normally worry about over-positive BLPs, but I googled around and (fairly unreliable) sources identified her connection to Scientology. The blogosphere indicates she's now an noted ex-scientologist (although, again, the sources are unreliable.

The article didn't mention Scientology at all, but I wondered about Cirt's motivation and neutrality, so I performed a moderate clean-up, removing some of the puffery. I was met with Cirt's aggressive ownership of the article, and his fairly aggressive attitude when I sought uninvolved input on the BLPNB. Cirt is obviously NOT neutral on such BLPs.

It was at this point DC added info to the bio claiming she was a scientologist. The material was a clear BLP violation, and poorly sourced. (More worryingly it presented her as a Scientologist when it appears she is no longer one.) I supported Cirt in the removal of it. See the discussion here

However, it appears that DC's motivation was pointed, since Cirt had used exactly the same source on a number of occasions to label living people as Scientologists. So Cirt's objection to it here was hypocritical. See the important discussion here.

The Wikipoltics and personalities here are not interesting. What's important is that Cirt is obviously pushing agendas in BLPs and that DC is willing to breach the BLP policy to make a point in response.

Cut to the chase: Arbcom ought to ban DC and Cirt from all Scientology related BLPs. We can't have people pushing agendas or fighting wikibattles at the expense of the bios of living people.--Scott Mac 16:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Should we delete all of Cirt's featured articles related to Scientology? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Jehochman 16:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we delete anything. I'm suggesting people with agendas don't push them on BLPs, and admins of Cirt's standing get zero tolerance here - there's no excuse. What doesn't make sense about that?--Scott Mac 16:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt knows how to write proper articles. If you have concerns about specific edits, please file a report at WP:BLPN, or start a new enforcement request, rather than complicating this thread, which is not about Cirt. Let's focus on the sanction appeal. Jehochman 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Stop wikilawyering. I'm trying to set the context here, so we don't swallow camels and strain gnats. This discussion is too spread out and atomised as it is without me opening yet another thread.--Scott Mac 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

This strikes me, from my own reading of the relevant threads to be an excellent and concise summary of events, please let me know if something was missed. I concur with Scott MacDonald's proposed remedy. u n☯mi 17:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't commented much on the Cirt side of things so far, but I have to say I'm beginning to see some of these problems too. He may be a valuable contributor about the topic as a whole, but perhaps it would be good if he kept away from related BLPs. No opinion on whether this should be handled within this thread or yet somewhere else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Resident Anthropologist (talk)

I agree with the topic ban and interaction ban whole heartedly, though I disagree with the imposed length of the bans. I think Carbuncle certainly set this up as the between his statements at Wikipeida Review suggest his pleading ignorance here is misdirection.

That being said, I am uncomfortable with the way Furture Presents bans appear whether or not it is that way I am unsure.

Short timeline

07:52, 8 December 2010 Cirt appropriately ANI thread on DC's BLP violations
22:47, 11 December 2010 First comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise
23:18, 11 December 2010 Secondd comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise quote "otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you. "
04:22, 13 December 2010 Cirt Issues request appropriately files an AE request
15:20, 13 December 2010 Cirt's appeals to Future perfect sunrise to intervene on his behalf at AE involving Jayen466
19:40, 13 December 2010 Future Perfect Sunrise issues a indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum."

In the results section it clearly says:

"This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above."

To me this is not about whether DC deserved such remedies, but rather was it appropriate after being requested by Cirt to look at the AE and had been involved in ANI. The question is whether it was truly appropriate for him to consider himself as uninvolved to enforce such actions and whether he violated the WP:INVOLVED Clause of Admin regulations.

Frankly I cannot but feel the entire situation is tainted by Future Perfects actions and cannot support these sanctions at this time

Evidence Submitted by The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Another Statement

The section Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle states: This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I feel it is inappropriate for people who have commented at ANI involved with this situation and who's enforcement is under question to be editing within that section The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As of 18:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I have yet to see any uninvolved Admins make a comment in the Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncleThe Resident Anthropologist (talk)
- You seem to have missed me. How do you think I am involved in this dispute? Jehochman 18:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  - apologies having reviewed your comments at ANI you are indeed correct. Above comment stricken The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by GraemeL

As an admin who became involved with the problems surrounding Delicious carbuncle when he moved his grievances to WP:BLPN, I threatened to block him for disruption and wrote here in support of sanctions against him. However, I think that the proposed remedy (being appealed here) was far too harsh, a permanent topic ban should only be used if he continues to try and forum shop and cause disruption to other editors and other (more lenient) sanctions fail to change his behaviour.

That said, I think the current proposed sanctions, while in the correct order of magnitude, are (as is being argued by some non-involved admins) on the side of being too lenient, but feel that the current discussions below seem to be zeroing in on an more appropriate response to this editors behaviour. --GraemeL 20:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by u n☯mi

On reading through some of the numerous and massive threads on this it seems to me that a picture emerges of Cirt being entirely too engaged in our Scientology related articles, to the point where niceties such as proper sourcing and intellectual integrity is thrown to the wind. For a primer see ANI Case study one. Have a look at the initial article Cirt created, as was noted on ANI, it certainly smacks of a preoccupation with scientology, rather than writing good articles.

Then note ANI Case study two, where it seems clear that Cirt is not only following the blog but is all but acting as an agent of it, for lack of better words.

I took a random jump into Cirts edit history, landing on March, this year, Cirt is very prolific, but I don't think it is too difficult to conclude that there is a pattern that emerges, almost all the articles have a relationship to Scientology. Many of the edits are, taken individually, benign, a fluff word here, removing trivially verifiable information, here, and closing an Afd that has some connection to scientology as keep, here (beckett media discontinued a magazine on neopets ( apparently a product by a company with connections to scientology ). There are numerous edits like these. I do get the impression that the decision on whether a gossip column should be considered an RS for BLP depends on whether the subject is judged to be pro or con Scientology and if the source is positive or negative, always with the result that subjects that Cirt considers to be 'pro scientologists' are put in negative light, or their accomplishments diminished.

Note that considering the source that got this whole thing started, Cirt participated in an RfC in 2007 that found it unreliable, here (his nick was smee), yet he himself adds it here in 2009, albeit as an external link.

Consider the manner of conflict resolution employed by Cirt throughout this situation. In the RS/N discussion, here, there is a very quick move to open this ANI thread, over something that frankly would hardly merit AN3, 15 minutes after the 3rd addition by DC. Then, shortly after DC starts posting specific issues at ANI, Cirt opens the initial AE thread with an assortment of charges, including forum shopping, though as near as I can tell, the posts by DC simply invited comment at the ANI thread regarding the issues raised, yet Cirt engages in rather blatant canvassing. This statement by Cirt is particularly ironic considering that he himself just opened first RSN then ANI and then an AE: "The problem is there has been no prior attempts by Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) at dispute resolution or attempts to resolve the matter through discussion. Rather, instead the user repeatedly chooses to escalate the issues directly, and engage in disruption across multiple pages. -- Cirt (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)". Within the threads themselves, Cirt seems to say almost nothing, indeed it is unnecessary for him to do so as long as there is an unwillingness of the participants to look at the heart of the matter, and less so when there is what amounts to active distraction from it.

My own interpretation is that DC did indeed set out to make a case against Cirt, but frankly it seems a case that needed to be made. Within that interpretation I have believe that DC did in fact not intend to leave the BLP with a poorly sourced statement of fact. I should also say that any perceived 'disruption' would be down to Cirts strategy of escalation rather than engagement. In light of this understanding I find the initial AE result missing the mark.

There have been a number of suggestions regarding a change of venue for looking at possibly problematic behavior by Cirt, but that is not necessary, the actions of all involved parties is open for investigation and sanction.

I don't at the moment remember any prior involvement with Cirt. I don't care much for scientology, I think it is a shame that people can't rest in themselves more, nonetheless I am compelled to speak out against what I read as trying to 'right great wrongs' by way of manipulation, wikilawyering and other tactics meant to sustain a POV rather than engage in open discussion. Especially considering that, unless there is a previous account, Cirt joined wikipedia precisely to engage Scientology see first contributions, such as this (which, if duly sourced and written in a more encyclopedic tone, is an edit I approve wholeheartedly of and sympathize with). The question isn't whether Cirt is fighting 'the good fight', it is if he is fighting it in a manner where there is one.

I don't think that we as a community are really mature enough to deal with half measures when it comes to people that can command as much influence as Cirt seems to. I urge you to consider a topic ban on anything related to scientology for Cirt, and either apply it for the same duration for DC or lift it altogether for DC until an actual problem manifests itself. There are plenty of other topics available for editors of their caliber. u n☯mi 21:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I just came across this exchange with GraemeL which, to my mind, reads as nothing more than an attempt to have DC removed post haste, and a similar one with FisherQueen, note that this is regarding ANI, and prior to the AE round of canvassing. u n☯mi 22:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) It seems that for the initial ANI thread FisherQueen, GraemeL, Jayron32, and HelloAnnyong all got tapped with neutral, non-campaigning notifications. u n☯mi 23:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Littleolive oil

No matter the perceived questionable behaviour of either of these editors, haphazard application of arbitration remedies is not an acceptable way of dealing with the issues. If either of these editors was not warned and although I've been following this discussion, I'm not up on this case to know if they were or not, neither should be sanctioned at this time. We most emphatically cannot and must not ignore the due process as outlined by arbitration, otherwise mob rule takes another step in ruling and controlling Misplaced Pages. And it doesn't matter if the so-called-mob is perceived to be right or wrong. (olive (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC))

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I believe the sanction is unnecessary. However, using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious. If that fact is relevant to the biography, surely it would be reported by a reliable secondary source. The consensus appears to be against using this source. DC will you abide by the consensus even if you don't agree with it? Cirt, will you drop the matter? Jehochman 16:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid your comment partly misses the mark: D.c. has already agreed that the source is inappropriate. The issue is that it very much appears he knew from the start it was not only inappropriate in general, but also outdated in this particular case, and he only used it in a deliberate POINT maneuvre to create an opportunity for lampooning the fact that Cirt had used the same source previously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that what DC did was malicious. Simply treat it as a mistake, ask him to stop, and if he agrees, the matter is resolved. Jehochman 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Given the fact that this was part of a long-standing personalized conflict with Cirt, as documented on Wikipediareview and elsewhere, and – whatever his beliefs about the concrete details of the facts of that bio at any one time – the whole episode was clearly manifactured on his part, with the main goal not of improving the biography but of provoking and setting up his opponent, I'm afraid I cannot muster this amount of AGF here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think (assuming as much good faith as I can) this was a BLP violation performed to out Cirt's use of the same dubious source on a number of articles.--Scott Mac 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Can we please stop making a mountain out of a molehill. A source was disputed. This minor dispute was escalated needlessly, causing several lengthy and unproductive discussions. Would you all please try to work together. Failing that, I support dishing out blocks for WP:BATTLE to those who want to keep fighting. Jehochman 17:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Are you threatening me with a block, for handing out an arbitration enforcement sanction and defending it afterwards?! You've got some nerve. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Not unless you are fighting. Are you? Jehochman 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, I am having a collegial discussion with you. Or I would be, if it wasn't for the fact that you suddenly turned against me with childish threats. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. Read what I wrote carefully and assume good faith, instead of assuming the worst. Jehochman 17:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman! Where the fuck did that come from? We're tying to work out what's going on here and how we best enforce neutrality wrt Scientology, which is the point of the whole arbcom case. Threatening to block people for raising related issues you don't like is ridiculous aggression. Block me for that, I'll block you back, and then we'll all be blocked. Knock it off - this is schoolboy bullying WP:BATTLE tactics at their lowest..--Scott Mac 17:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you make your point without cursing and name-calling? Jehochman 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Gents, please. I think you've all misunderstood each other and, of not, should resolve this on your own talk pages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed resolutions

Short blocks to those disputants who continue to battle after being warned by any uninvolved administrator.
Overturn sanction on DC, and instead issue a warning not to use dubious primary sources in WP:BLP articles.

I support these both. Jehochman 17:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I support the blocks, but a warning is just too lenient. I'm going to suggest a medium term (maybe a couple of months) ban on editing BLPs related to scientology and on adding material related to scientology to other BLPs and maybe a mutual interaction ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Scott Mac's evidence demonstrates the problem cuts both ways. This discussion is illuminative. I suggest both Cirt and DC are topic-banned from BLPs within the topic area for two months. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'd support that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - this discussion has clearly and unambiguously demonstrated the wisdom of its original imposition, whether the decision was as uninvolved as ideal or not. I believe that we don't need a new sanction to block disruptive editors. I support launching a User RFC on Cirt and Scientology edits to determine if there's good evidence for a real problem or not - this discussion here is generating far too much heat and little light to be of rational value in determining that, and it's not the right venue in any case. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
This is within an area of conflict in which discretionary sanctions apply. The correct place to discuss Cirt's behaviour within the area of conflict is here, not in yet another forum. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - We have not sufficiently discussed other editors to hand out further sanction. A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Misplaced Pages Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games. It appears that we have a lot of personality conflicts and people need to get back to writing content rather than biting each other. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you purporting to be an "uninvolved administrator"? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
In that I do not / have not edited pages on Scientology ~~and you?~~ Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to clarify - because you've made "above the line" statements in the original AE and on the appeal, and you appear to have quite clear views, I am not sure whether you consider yourself involved or uninvolved. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Ah yes was not aware of the significance of the line :-) A number of people including Future posted above and below. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to have to argue for shortening this one. According to WP:ARBSCI, "If the editor fails to heed the warning, the editor may be topic banned, initially, for three months, then with additional topic bans increasing in duration to a maximum of one year." I'm not seeing anything in that decision to authorise an indef topic ban as imposted. That said, I find DC's behaviour worthy of the sanction authorised. Courcelles 20:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The consensus appears to be that DC's topic ban is upheld. Per WP:ARBSCI, this being the first infraction, the ban length is three months, per Courcelles. As for Cirt, this thread is an appeal of a sanction. It is not going to impose a sanction on Cirt, without prejudice to somebody starting a separate thread where evidence of misbehavior by Cirt may be put forward and Cirt given a chance to respond. Finally, if editors involved in this dispute decide to carry on in other venues, they are risking a possible block for WP:BATTLE. If the next administrator, who has not commented here yet, would be so kind as to close the thread, that would be appreciated. Jehochman 21:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

There is precedent and mandate for imposing restrictions on Cirt if necessary. Per Scott's summary, they seem necessary to me. Topic ban both of them for the same length of time. Note: I don't think this is closable yet, as there is open business. ++Lar: t/c 21:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that whatever sanction is imposed on one should be the same for the other, but I think a ban on editing scientology-related BLPs and adding scientology-related information to other BLPs better gets to the crux of the disruption. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps a more precise BLP ban is better, I could go either way, as long as it's on both folk at the least, and not just DC. ++Lar: t/c 23:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm with HJ Mitchell on this one. All sanctions in this case should be bilateral, and include a mutual interaction ban. That would stop all of the silliness we have seen. Perhaps a community-based restriction discussion at WP:AN would be an appropriate venue, if this isn't it? --Jayron32 22:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) --- ~~This editor is highly involved and is not allowed to post here. Jehochman 22:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)~~

Involved or not, Jayron raises some good points, but I don't think moving back to AN is the right thing to do. ++Lar: t/c 23:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

My bad, this is Jayron32, not Jayen466. I confused the two. Jayron is uninvolved as far as I know. Many apologies! Jehochman 01:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Agree with both Lar and HJ. It is well-established that AE can consider the actions of all relevant parties, including the filer of the AE. There is no reason not to extend that principle to appeals. Discretionary sanctions don't even need to arise from AEs to begin with - they can be imposed at any administrator's discretion. Given that Cirt is an admin, and the clear evidence that he/she attempted to procure a favourable result at the AE by improper canvassing, we need to be all the more careful not to create an impression of flick-passing this to other venues.--Mkativerata (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

(undent) It seems like we have a group of people using Misplaced Pages Review to solicit support for criticizing Crit. Here we find User:Lar and User:Jayen466 for example. Measures may need to be expanded a bit beyond these two to address off site attacks. BTW is Misplaced Pages Review counted as WP:CANVASSING? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, I'm not seeing Lar engage in Cirt-related discussion, let alone lobbying, in that discussion. He seems to have been talking about something else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

True but the thread is labeled "Cirt revisited" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I am really uneasy about this group of editors showing up here in the uninvolved section lobbying for new sanctions in an appeal. Cirt hasn't been presented with evidence of wrongdoing, and hasn't been given a chance to respond. This is irregular and improper, and if it continues, I will ask ArbCom to scrutinize the behavior of all concerned. Jehochman 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes Cirt has. And I'm very happy for you report me to arbcom for whatever imaginary things you've already threatened to block me for. Beware the boomerang though. I don't see your reaction here as indicating disinterest or neutrality.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  - I don't think we need Arbcom. If there is a need for more systematic scrutiny regarding Cirt, a User RfC would be the obvious choice, and if that results in serious concerns, sanctioning can still happen under the ARBSCI rules. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
In fairness to Cirt, if somebody thinks there is a problem, please put together the evidence and start a thread. This thread is very noisy and disorganized. It is not proper to sanction an editor who has generated lots of high quality content without giving them a fair chance to respond to concerns. Jehochman 22:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Per the evidence above, I strongly support the view that Cirt's long term bias in this area merits at least as long a BLP topic ban as DC's one violation. Violating BLP to prove a point as DC did is poor, but the point is itself not a bad one.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Looking at Misplaced Pages review it appears that it is only possible do determine who some of the people commenting are. We do however have previously involved by User:Jayen466 and User: Delicious carbuncle while User:Lar commented on the threat but not really about Cirt. Is there anyway to determine if others here are also involved with what appears to be a coordinated effort over there?
Also Scott Mac appears involved Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Involved in what? The only thing I'm ever involved with these days is concerns about BLP. I've presented evidence of Cirt's problematic attitude to BLP editing here. It is probably best to defend Cirt by rebutting the charge, rather than hunting for conspiracies. Nice attempt to deflect, but it doesn't wash.--Scott Mac 23:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  - You have been involved with editing the page that this whole thing is about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    - So?--Scott Mac 23:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
      - Precisely. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    - @Doc James: If we're going to start flinging tar with a broad brush (to mix metaphors) I think it's possible your own actions need further scrutiny, actually. That said, I think trying to claim I'm involved because I commented on a person who commented on Cirt is a bit of a stretch. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
      - @Lar yes I have acknowledged that above. Your not really involved. I only brought this up as if we are going to address canvassing a few more people may be involved. We all really need to get back to editing though and I do not think this is place to deal with it.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Assuming it's not to late to say so, I think the 2 resolutions above are quite reasonable. If the topic and/or interaction ban is intended to quell the drama, I also support applying it to both parties (applying to one or another seems unlikely to have much of a quelling effect). --SB_Johnny | 23:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi. This is an appeal by DC. It's pretty clear that the restriction needs to be reduced to 3 months to accord with WP:ARBSCI. Other than that, if people feel other editors need sanctioning, please start a thread, and include diffs. It is not fair to sanction somebody without showing them the evidence and giving them a chance to respond. Handwaving statements like he's just as bad don't make the cut. Also, anybody filing a complaint should disclose any history they have with the other editor(s). Thank you. Jehochman 01:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't agree with that. AE has a wide mandate, and if the original case had an incorrect outcome (Cirt didn't get any sanctions) the appeal process can fix that. Don't insist on needless paperwork. Also, you raised the "Cirt hasn't seen the evidence/hasn't had a chance to respond" already and it was rebutted. ++Lar: t/c 01:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  - Where is the evidence against Cirt? Where is Cirt's response. Please don't try to steamroll somebody like this. It is not fair and I will not stand for it. Jehochman 01:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
The relevant remedy states that "Prior to topic banning the editor, the administrator will leave a message on the editor's talk page, linking to this paragraph, warning the editor that a topic ban is contemplated and outlining the behaviours for which it is contemplated" (emphasis mine). Was such a warning (with the link, explicitly stating that a topic ban was contemplated, and outlining the disruptive behavior) given to either Cirt or DC? If so, can someone provide diffs? T. Canens (talk) 01:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- D.c. was warned by Jayron here and by multiple people, including myself, in the course of the preceding ANI discussions. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy, not even when it comes to Arbcom enforcement. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  - That warning neither stated that a topic ban was contemplated (it only says that the user may be blocked), nor linked to the specific remedy authorizing a topic ban (but only a general link to WP:ARBSCI), nor outlined the objectionable conduct (indeed, it deliberately avoided the question whether the edits mentioned are objectionable). It does not satisfy the requirement in the remedy. This remedy's warning provision is much more explicit than the usual discretionary sanctions provisions, and the sanction authorized (only topic bans) is also much more limited.They generally require only that "rior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions" (from WP:DSN; similar wording can be found in WP:ARBAA2, WP:ARB911, WP:ARBCC, and so on), some may add that the warning needs to be given by an uninvolved administrator; all of these, moreover, authorize blocks, revert restrictions, as well as any other measure the enforcing administrator deems necessary. In this case, however, the applicable remedy provides for a single sanction, and requires a very specific warning: it must link to the section authorizing the topic ban, indicate that a topic ban is being contemplated, and describe the conduct found objectionable. Our authority to enforce an arbcom decision comes only from the delegation of authority contained in that decision, and we are powerless to depart from its terms when taking action under its authority. Further, individual administrators do not have the authority, independent of arbcom, to impose topic bans; that power lies with the community. Unless prior warnings in compliance with the requirements in the remedy were given, I am of the view that the sanction at issue must be lifted, because no administrator was authorized to impose it in the first place. T. Canens (talk) 07:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
    - D.c. had previously explicitly acknowledged he knew about the sanctions rule, and he knew is own conduct was being critically reviewed under it. The rest (about specific links to specific sections needing to be posted in specific places, no less!) ist bureaucratic red tape. WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY is policy, and as such binding even to Arbcom and our way of interpreting and enforcing Arbcom decisions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
      - That section deals with interpretation of policies, guidelines and similar material - it is understood that they are generally descriptive, not prescriptive, thus it is inappropriate to seize on the letter of the wording because it is the spirit that reflects the community consensus they document. An arbcom remedy is neither a policy nor a guideline; it does not "document already existing community consensus", and indeed may not be amended by community consensus (the community does not have the power to overturn an arbcom ban, for example), and nor do we have the power to remove arbcom's instruction creep, if it is indeed instruction creep. We simply cannot use the power given to us by arbcom to enforce its decisions to place bans that are inconsistent with their plain language. T. Canens (talk) 07:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I would favor revoking the existing sanction against DC. There is another question regarding the possibility of placing a sanction against both Cirt and DC. Personally, without commenting on the reasonableness of such an idea, I really do not think that this is necessarily the best place to have such a discussion. The amount of material which could be presented and potentially responded to in such a discussion is, to my eyes anyway, probably way too long to be able to be included in this page without making the page unduly long for some editors. I would myself at least favor creating a separate subpage for such a discussion. I also think that, if such is to be done, starting the discussion over with the presentation of the evidence against the various parties would be in everyone's best interests. But this section is really getting unduly long as is, and would doubtless get even longer if we were to fairly discuss application of sanctions against Cirt. John Carter (talk) 18:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of appeal by Delicious carbuncle, section 2

Timotheus, could you leave Delicious carbuncle a note linking to Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Discretionary_topic_ban and ask them to confirm that they understand what the concerns are. Additionally, could you strike the sanction on DC logged at WP:ARBSCI, because it clearly failed to follow the prescribed process? I agree with you completely that arbitration remedies must be applied according to process. Improvisation is not allowed (unlike most situations on Misplaced Pages).

As for Cirt, if an uninvolved administrator wants to compile evidence of problematic editing and leave a warning, that would be fine. I will specifically caution those who were canvassed by Cirt, those who've been discussing this on Misplaced Pages Review, and those who've been advocating for out-of-process sanctions, to please recuse from any administrative action. Any editor is welcome to file an arbitration enforcement request if they feel that an arbitration remedy has been violated. Jehochman 11:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Not acceptable. See above. Scott Mac references it when he said "per the evidence above". Review it please. We need the same thing applied to Cirt as DC. Or more. And stop casting aspersions on participants. ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, the arbitration remedy is very clear that sanctions cannot be applied until after the mandatory warning. As I've said, any uninvolved administrator is welcome to copy the evidence and issue the warning. I'm not going to do any of this myself because I don't want to cause more controversy. Jehochman 15:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

82kbs later, I'm not sure I'm totally clear on whats going on here, but I've been able to pull the following issues out:

Delicious carbuncle's sanction may have been given without a warning.
Delicious carbuncle's off-wiki comments are being used as evidence of bias
There is a concern that Cirt's editing patterns in the Scientology area are insufficiently neutral to be allowed to edit in BLPs because of the heightened stakes in BLPs
Ditto for Delicious Carbuncle
- Apparently there is a suggestion that ArbCom ban both Cirt and Delicious Carbuncle from Scientology related BLPS, which seems like an odd thing to use AE for, as we're short on Arbitrators.
Several administrators (who I respect a great deal for their long standing dedication to Misplaced Pages and her* goals) have interacted... acrimoniously with each other.

Separately, statements such as "I am out to expose X as the Y that I believe X to be" suggest a battlefield mentality wholly inappropriate for a collaborative environment. Anyway, are we talking about a pattern of edits across multiple BLPs, or are we talking about the Jamie Sorrentini article exclusively? What, if anything have I missed?--Tznkai (talk) 05:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)*her, as in the Good Ship Misplaced Pages

Please confirm actual result of appeal I note that Tim hasn't removed DC's sanction as requested by Jehochman, and Future Perfect has removed an AE filing by DC on the grounds that the sanction is still in place. Without commenting on the merits or otherwise of DCs attempted filing, can we please clarify which of three outcomes discussed above applies

The appeal has failed
The appeal has succeeded and the sanction has been modified from 'in perpetuity' to 'for 3 months'
The sanction has been overturned due to a failure of process and should be removed from the list.

Thanks --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it's option three. The process on this stinks all the way around. Overturn without prejudice against an uninvolved admin giving a proper, ARBSCI compliant warning. DC's conduct was bad, but we can't cite NOTBURO and sidestep clear requirements from ArbCom- that makes individual admins too powerful. Courcelles 12:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Noting that I still stand by my assessment with respect to the objective justification of the sanction, I cannot of course stand in the way of my colleagues if they value the formalities of the warning procedures higher than I did. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I will strike the sanction from the record on grounds of technical non compliance with procedure. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Silver seren

Communist terrorism is fully protected for a period of three months. No action against respondent. Courcelles 12:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Silver seren User requesting enforcement Petri Krohn (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy that this user violated Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Log of article-level discretionary sanctions Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it Blind revert to previous version, without participating in the open discussion – done four minutes after my edit. Joining edit war started earlier by user Collect (talk · contribs). Earlier revert of my edit by user Collect. Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) Silver seren has actively participated in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Communist terrorism (3rd nomination) and the article talk page. He should have seen the warnings. I do not think Silver seren has recieved a DIGWUREN warning. Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) DIGWUREN warning Additional comments by editor filing complaint The article was placed under a one revert per day DIGWUREN sanction on 25 November 2010. Additional editing restrictions were placed by Sandstein when he closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Communist terrorism (3rd nomination). The current article makes claims not supported by any sources. Specifically it makes the claim that "organized violence used by Marxist, socialist, or similar left-wing groups is called 'Communist terrorism'". In fact, all sources refer to this type of violence as left-wing terrorism. The arguments for removing the synthesized content have been presented at length on the talk page and the deletion discussion. Despite repeated and extensive searches, no one has been able to find source that would define what "communist terrorism" is, or even to provide any sources for the concept's existence. So far in this edit war I have not made a single revert. In my first edit on December 12. I added tags indicating the disputed content. After my tags were removed by Collect I started a discussion on the talk page, indicating that I would remove the content anyway, unless sources for the content were provided. Today I removed the disputed content, only to be reverted by Silver seren four minutes later. Note that my second edit consists of two parts, done with a 5 second interval. The first part restores tags, the second part self reverts the addition. This is done so, that the article history and the diff would clearly show what was removed and why. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested diff Response to Volunteer Marek Yes, I regularly do two-step edits with tags in the first step. This is done for two reasons: To clearly mark the extent and motivation for my real edit in step 2 To provide anyone reverting my edits a compromise version to revert to. (So far I have not seen anyone taking this offer :-( You will see, that the two-step edits are clearly marked as such in the edit summary (Step 1 of two-step edit:...) and have the same time stamp. The tags are not intended to start a discussion, unless of course that becomes the version reverted to. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning Silver seren Statement by Silver seren I'm a bit confused about why this section was opened, considering I only made a single revert. This is within the 1RR restriction on the article, which I am already fully aware of (considering it told me so in bright red letters when I edited the page). I felt that more discussion needed to be made on the talk page for these changes, since Petri has only opened a talk page discussion section, but had not responded to others yet. Thus, I reverted him, directing him to the talk page, where I also left a comment a few minutes later. As far as i'm aware, this is all within policy and our rules on the article, so i'm not sure what i've violated. Silverseren 18:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Volunteer Marek Petri Krohn: Blind revert to previous version - false, the edit was not a "blind revert", in fact it had a detailed edit summary Petri Krohn: without participating in the open discussion - also false. Silver seren's edit was at 2:05, Dec 15th. He made the relevant talk page comment almost immediately explaining the edit at 2:12 . This request was made by Petri at 3:32, hence he had plenty of time to check the talk page. Petri Krohn: So far in this edit war I have not made a single revert. - also false. Petri's addition of tags to the article at 19:38 on Dec 12 was continued with a following revert at at 2:05 Dec 15 . Basically Petri's adding any tags he can think of into the article to make it look like crap, after the AfD for the article failed. This, along with this edit (removing the text he tagged only seconds earlier before allowing for discussion to take place (note that this is another standard tactic of "tag/remove seconds later", , , , which is a clear violation of WP:DR) is part of the strategy he previously outlined here which aims to purposely sabotage articles so that they can be deleted/merged/moved. This appears to be another in a recent line of frivolous AE requests and it seems some people are not getting the message. I'm getting the sense that the situation's slipping out of control here. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Biophys This looks like a content dispute. Why bring it here? Unlike many others, I never had content disputes with Petri during all these years. It was only once that I tried to have a meaningful content conversation with Petri. The discussion was about quoting a Russian philosopher of 19th Century, as I tried to explain . But that is what Petri responded . Osama bin Laden? No wonder, a lot of people have problems debating content issues with Petri. Now, looking back at this discussion, I can tell that he probably did not discuss anything at all, but only tried to "prove" that I was making a topic ban violation by quoting an old Russian philosopher, a claim as "legitimate" as his non-administrative closure of an AE tread by Colchicum, as giving me a "trout" and a lot of other claims he is making about Dojarca and others. Does it help creating the encyclopedia? Biophys (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Statement by Collect (who just found himself being accused without notification) I find my name bandied sans any notice here. Petri Krohn is a long-term edit warrior in this area, and has unclean hands. The "reverts" do not violate the 1RR restrictons by a mile or so. Nor did I have an "edit war" going on. Ths whole affair is related directly to acts by Petri et al to delete by POVforking the article (Left-wing terrorism), by AfDing the article, by tagging the article (including tagging of single simple English words), and by dab-ing the article. is a falkse use of a "failed verification tag" and Petri had been told that the tag has a specific use noted in the template page. etc. shows the type of Petri's edits clearly. And . And . I would like to AGF that all of these were earnest attempts to improve the article. Others might not do so. The AfD is at in which Petri participated, and where discussion took place regarding all of this. In short, the person who ought to be examined here is Petri, who has an extensive history of notifications, warnings, blocks and bans concerning the topic. Collect (talk) 11:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Silver seren Comment by BorisG I think the filing party need to be sanctioned (at least with a warning) for bringing totally unfounded request to AE - BorisG (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Silver seren This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Here are the article and user templates that are relevant: Communist terrorism (edit \| talk \| history \| protect \| delete \| links \| watch \| logs \| views) Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) The remedy requested above is to notify Silver seren under DIGWUREN. I don't see why we would do that. The Arbcom sanction which is listed above as being violated is the 1RR rule on Communist terrorism. Silver seren made only one revert, so he didn't break that. Suggest closing with no action against Silver seren. Can something more be done to limit the warring at Communist terrorism? How about three months of full protection? Any changes that have consensus could then be made via {{editprotect}}. Its current 1RR restriction was imposed due to a complaint filed here at AE on 17 November. Two admins already supported full protection at that time. The article has just survived its third AfD, which was closed by User:Sandstein on 10 December. EdJohnston (talk) 17:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Full protection might not be a bad idea, but there's certainly no need for any enforcement action against the respondent, who made only one revert (I can't see another one going right back to the start of the month). Suggest closure of this thread as frivolous/inactionable and full protection at admin discretion or request at RfPP. HJ Mitchell \| Penny for your thoughts? 18:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Done - full protected for three months. I was going to propose one month, but we can always unprotect if this somehow gets worked out in the meantime. This report could be interpreted as an attempt to use discretionary sanctions as a weapon in a content dispute, but I think on balance it is better viewed as a symptom of stalled negotiations. Based on the talkpage discussions at the time, I do not see a need to sanction Silver seren, Collect, or Petri Krohn, nor any of the participants who have been discussing without editing the article. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Communist terrorism is fully protected for a period of three months. No action against respondent. Courcelles 12:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Silver seren

User requesting enforcement: Petri Krohn (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Log of article-level discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Blind revert to previous version, without participating in the open discussion – done four minutes after my edit. Joining edit war started earlier by user Collect (talk · contribs).
Earlier revert of my edit by user Collect.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Silver seren has actively participated in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Communist terrorism (3rd nomination) and the article talk page. He should have seen the warnings.
I do not think Silver seren has recieved a DIGWUREN warning.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): DIGWUREN warning

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: The article was placed under a one revert per day DIGWUREN sanction on 25 November 2010. Additional editing restrictions were placed by Sandstein when he closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Communist terrorism (3rd nomination).

The current article makes claims not supported by any sources. Specifically it makes the claim that "organized violence used by Marxist, socialist, or similar left-wing groups is called 'Communist terrorism'". In fact, all sources refer to this type of violence as left-wing terrorism. The arguments for removing the synthesized content have been presented at length on the talk page and the deletion discussion. Despite repeated and extensive searches, no one has been able to find source that would define what "communist terrorism" is, or even to provide any sources for the concept's existence.

So far in this edit war I have not made a single revert. In my first edit on December 12. I added tags indicating the disputed content. After my tags were removed by Collect I started a discussion on the talk page, indicating that I would remove the content anyway, unless sources for the content were provided. Today I removed the disputed content, only to be reverted by Silver seren four minutes later.

Note that my second edit consists of two parts, done with a 5 second interval. The first part restores tags, the second part self reverts the addition. This is done so, that the article history and the diff would clearly show what was removed and why. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Response to Volunteer Marek

Yes, I regularly do two-step edits with tags in the first step. This is done for two reasons:

To clearly mark the extent and motivation for my real edit in step 2
To provide anyone reverting my edits a compromise version to revert to. (So far I have not seen anyone taking this offer :-(

You will see, that the two-step edits are clearly marked as such in the edit summary (Step 1 of two-step edit:...) and have the same time stamp. The tags are not intended to start a discussion, unless of course that becomes the version reverted to. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Silver seren

Statement by Silver seren

I'm a bit confused about why this section was opened, considering I only made a single revert. This is within the 1RR restriction on the article, which I am already fully aware of (considering it told me so in bright red letters when I edited the page). I felt that more discussion needed to be made on the talk page for these changes, since Petri has only opened a talk page discussion section, but had not responded to others yet. Thus, I reverted him, directing him to the talk page, where I also left a comment a few minutes later. As far as i'm aware, this is all within policy and our rules on the article, so i'm not sure what i've violated. Silverseren 18:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Petri Krohn: Blind revert to previous version - false, the edit was not a "blind revert", in fact it had a detailed edit summary

Petri Krohn: without participating in the open discussion - also false. Silver seren's edit was at 2:05, Dec 15th. He made the relevant talk page comment almost immediately explaining the edit at 2:12 . This request was made by Petri at 3:32, hence he had plenty of time to check the talk page.

Petri Krohn: So far in this edit war I have not made a single revert. - also false. Petri's addition of tags to the article at 19:38 on Dec 12 was continued with a following revert at at 2:05 Dec 15 .

Basically Petri's adding any tags he can think of into the article to make it look like crap, after the AfD for the article failed. This, along with this edit (removing the text he tagged only seconds earlier before allowing for discussion to take place (note that this is another standard tactic of "tag/remove seconds later", , , , which is a clear violation of WP:DR) is part of the strategy he previously outlined here which aims to purposely sabotage articles so that they can be deleted/merged/moved.

This appears to be another in a recent line of frivolous AE requests and it seems some people are not getting the message. I'm getting the sense that the situation's slipping out of control here. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Biophys

This looks like a content dispute. Why bring it here? Unlike many others, I never had content disputes with Petri during all these years. It was only once that I tried to have a meaningful content conversation with Petri. The discussion was about quoting a Russian philosopher of 19th Century, as I tried to explain . But that is what Petri responded . Osama bin Laden? No wonder, a lot of people have problems debating content issues with Petri.

Now, looking back at this discussion, I can tell that he probably did not discuss anything at all, but only tried to "prove" that I was making a topic ban violation by quoting an old Russian philosopher, a claim as "legitimate" as his non-administrative closure of an AE tread by Colchicum, as giving me a "trout" and a lot of other claims he is making about Dojarca and others. Does it help creating the encyclopedia? Biophys (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Collect (who just found himself being accused without notification)

I find my name bandied sans any notice here. Petri Krohn is a long-term edit warrior in this area, and has unclean hands. The "reverts" do not violate the 1RR restrictons by a mile or so. Nor did I have an "edit war" going on. Ths whole affair is related directly to acts by Petri et al to delete by POVforking the article (Left-wing terrorism), by AfDing the article, by tagging the article (including tagging of single simple English words), and by dab-ing the article. is a falkse use of a "failed verification tag" and Petri had been told that the tag has a specific use noted in the template page. etc. shows the type of Petri's edits clearly. And . And . I would like to AGF that all of these were earnest attempts to improve the article. Others might not do so. The AfD is at in which Petri participated, and where discussion took place regarding all of this. In short, the person who ought to be examined here is Petri, who has an extensive history of notifications, warnings, blocks and bans concerning the topic. Collect (talk) 11:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Silver seren

Comment by BorisG

I think the filing party need to be sanctioned (at least with a warning) for bringing totally unfounded request to AE - BorisG (talk) 17:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Silver seren

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Here are the article and user templates that are relevant:

Communist terrorism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The remedy requested above is to notify Silver seren under DIGWUREN. I don't see why we would do that. The Arbcom sanction which is listed above as being violated is the 1RR rule on Communist terrorism. Silver seren made only one revert, so he didn't break that. Suggest closing with no action against Silver seren.

Can something more be done to limit the warring at Communist terrorism? How about three months of full protection? Any changes that have consensus could then be made via {{editprotect}}. Its current 1RR restriction was imposed due to a complaint filed here at AE on 17 November. Two admins already supported full protection at that time. The article has just survived its third AfD, which was closed by User:Sandstein on 10 December. EdJohnston (talk) 17:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Full protection might not be a bad idea, but there's certainly no need for any enforcement action against the respondent, who made only one revert (I can't see another one going right back to the start of the month). Suggest closure of this thread as frivolous/inactionable and full protection at admin discretion or request at RfPP. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Done - full protected for three months. I was going to propose one month, but we can always unprotect if this somehow gets worked out in the meantime. This report could be interpreted as an attempt to use discretionary sanctions as a weapon in a content dispute, but I think on balance it is better viewed as a symptom of stalled negotiations. Based on the talkpage discussions at the time, I do not see a need to sanction Silver seren, Collect, or Petri Krohn, nor any of the participants who have been discussing without editing the article. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Jalapenos do exist

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jalapenos do exist

User requesting enforcement: Gatoclass (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Jalapenos do exist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

WP:GAME - see explanation in "Additional comments" section below
WP:GAME, see below
WP:GAME, see below
WP:GAME, see below
, WP:GAME, see below
, WP:GAME, see below
, WP:GAME, see below
, WP:GAME, see below
, WP:GAME, see below
, WP:GAME, see below

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warning by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Topic ban. Preferably an extended one.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Substituted short version of evidence below
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Last month, Jalapenos do exist submitted an article, Durban III, to WP:DYK for consideration for promotion to the main page. I happened to notice it in the DYK queue on December 4, about 16 hours before it was due for mainpage display, took a look at the article and decided it was POV. Rather than pulling it from the queue or requesting it be pulled however, I decided to delete the most objectionable items, and allow it to proceed despite my misgivings concerning the rest of the content. I also did some pruning of a related article, World Conference against Racism 2001, here, leaving a note at the article's talk page explaining my edits, here. When I returned to Misplaced Pages the following day, I noted that Jalapenos had reverted my edit to the second article with the single word Nonsense, restoring some highly tendentious material to the lead which implied that an official UN conference distributed antisemitic libels and "portraits of Adolf Hitler". Jalapenos completely ignored my reasons for deletion given on the talk page in doing so. Moreover, his reversion was made less than 40 minutes before the article was due for (proxy) promotion, leaving almost no time for anybody to see it and prevent it going to the main page. Shortly thereafter, I noticed a second DYK nomination from Jalapenos at T:TDYK, Civilian casualty ratio, with a hook another user described as "agenda-driven". The article had been nominated at AfD by another user and passed, though 14 out of 22 users at the AFD either expressed concerns about or signally failed to endorse the article's content. I too had major concerns about the article, considering it to be an obvious WP:COATRACK for showcasing a handful of carefully cherry-picked, albeit dubious, sources purportedly demonstrating Israel's humanitarian concern for avoiding civilian casualties - a conclusion that I consider to be WP:FRINGE since it flies in the face of a large body of evidence compiled by NGOs criticizing the same state for excessive use of force. My initial impulse once again was simply to argue for disqualification of the article at DYK because the problems were too extensive to be remedied within DYK's short timeframe. After complaints from Jalapenos and one or two of his buddies, however, I decided, once again very much against my better judgement, to try and remedy the worst of the problems myself in an attempt to bring it up to DYK standard, in an effort to avoid Wikidrama (the entire discussion at T:TDYK can be reviewed here). I started working on the article on 5 December. As I had feared, the job turned out to be substantial, requiring a considerable amount of research, and I only finished it on December 13. Throughout, I gave reasons for my edits, both in edit summaries and at the article's talk page. Not once during the entire 9-day period I was editing the article did Jalapenos express the slightest concern about any of my edits, or make a single revert or edit himself, apart from one minor tweak to a header. When I finished, I checked with Jalapenos to ensure he had no concerns with my edits. Jalapenos' reply at my talk page was as follows: I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK. I took this statement, along with his failure to raise any concerns over the previous nine days, as confirmation that he had no substantial concerns about my edits, and on that basis, I withdrew my objection to its promotion at DYK, in spite of the fact that I was still very dissatisfied with the article. The article was promoted to the queue shortly afterward. Yesterday, I returned to Misplaced Pages to find the article has come and gone on the mainpage. To my astonishment, I found that in a series of edits, Jalapenos with a little help from Mbz had reverted almost all my edits pertaining to Israel in the article, essentially restoring in its entirety the original version to which I (and a number of other users) had strenuously objected 9 days before. Once again, Jalapenos left his series of edits to the very last moment, only beginning them a few minutes after the article appeared on the mainpage, leaving the least possible time for those edits to be challenged. I submit that this behaviour of Jalapenos represents a transparent and egregious breach of WP:GAME, in particular example 9 of the guideline, I quote: Bad faith negotiating – Luring other editors into a compromise by making a concession, only to withhold that concession after the other side has compromised. That is precisely what Jalapenos has done in this case. He allowed me to sweat over his article for more than a week in trying to bring it up to scratch, with not a single complaint, assured me at the end of the process that he had no objections to the article in its current form - and then just made wholesale reverts the minute the article appeared on the mainpage. This series of edits by Jalapenos also represents a blatant, and indeed successful, attempt to subvert DYK's established article review process. Jalapenos knew that his version of the article was heading for rejection at T:TDYK; he allowed me to bring it to a condition in which it could be approved, only to revert to the earlier contentious version once it made it to the main page. To list just some of his reverts, all made just after midnight 14 December, a few minutes after the article appeared on the main page: 6 December: I remove material with the edit summary dershowitz is not a reliable source. 14 December: J. restores dershowitz. 6 December: I removed Gordon as a "partisan source". 14 December: J. restores Gordon. 6 December: I remove dershowitz from lead as wp:undue. 14 December: J. restores Dershowitz to lead. 6 December: I refactor Katz. 14 December: J. restores "fuller version of Katz". 6 December: I add ref. to Goldstone report. 14 December: J. removes ref. to Goldstone report. 9 December: I remove Kalder from lead per talk page concerns. 14 December: J. restores Kalder to lead over talk page consensus. 9 December: I remove Oren per talk page concerns. 14 December: J. restores Oren over talk page consensus. Jalapenos knew that all this content was contested, but restored it all anyway - 15 minutes after the article appeared on the main page. Finally, a look through Jalapenos' talk pages reveals that his main contribution to the encyclopedia appears to be as the author of a string of articles which have been nominated for AFD, most of them being deleted for lack of notability and many with POV concerns, as follows: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of antisemitism in the United Nations - deleted Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Gaza Strip) - keep Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Claims of Israeli organ harvesting in Haiti - deleted Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tapuah junction stabbing - deleted, overturned at DRV Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Latma TV - keep Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian ax attacks on Israelis - deleted Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/June 2010 West Bank shooting - deleted Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/September 2010 West Bank shooting - merged Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Killing of Rabbi Meir Hai - "keep for now" Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/September 2010 Gaza naval shooting - delete I am therefore requesting a substantial topic ban for this user. Gatoclass (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Substituted short version of evidence below

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Last month, Jalapenos do exist submitted an article, Durban III, to WP:DYK for consideration for promotion to the main page. I happened to notice it in the DYK queue on December 4, about 16 hours before it was due for mainpage display, took a look at the article and decided it was POV. Rather than pulling it from the queue or requesting it be pulled however, I decided to delete the most objectionable items, and allow it to proceed despite my misgivings concerning the rest of the content. I also did some pruning of a related article, World Conference against Racism 2001, here, leaving a note at the article's talk page explaining my edits, here.

When I returned to Misplaced Pages the following day, I noted that Jalapenos had reverted my edit to the second article with the single word Nonsense, restoring some highly tendentious material to the lead which implied that an official UN conference distributed antisemitic libels and "portraits of Adolf Hitler". Jalapenos completely ignored my reasons for deletion given on the talk page in doing so. Moreover, his reversion was made less than 40 minutes before the article was due for (proxy) promotion, leaving almost no time for anybody to see it and prevent it going to the main page.

Shortly thereafter, I noticed a second DYK nomination from Jalapenos at T:TDYK, Civilian casualty ratio, with a hook another user described as "agenda-driven". The article had been nominated at AfD by another user and passed, though 14 out of 22 users at the AFD either expressed concerns about or signally failed to endorse the article's content.

I too had major concerns about the article, considering it to be an obvious WP:COATRACK for showcasing a handful of carefully cherry-picked, albeit dubious, sources purportedly demonstrating Israel's humanitarian concern for avoiding civilian casualties - a conclusion that I consider to be WP:FRINGE since it flies in the face of a large body of evidence compiled by NGOs criticizing the same state for excessive use of force.

My initial impulse once again was simply to argue for disqualification of the article at DYK because the problems were too extensive to be remedied within DYK's short timeframe. After complaints from Jalapenos and one or two of his buddies, however, I decided, once again very much against my better judgement, to try and remedy the worst of the problems myself in an attempt to bring it up to DYK standard, in an effort to avoid Wikidrama (the entire discussion at T:TDYK can be reviewed here).

I started working on the article on 5 December. As I had feared, the job turned out to be substantial, requiring a considerable amount of research, and I only finished it on December 13. Throughout, I gave reasons for my edits, both in edit summaries and at the article's talk page. Not once during the entire 9-day period I was editing the article did Jalapenos express the slightest concern about any of my edits, or make a single revert or edit himself, apart from one minor tweak to a header.

When I finished, I checked with Jalapenos to ensure he had no concerns with my edits. Jalapenos' reply at my talk page was as follows:

I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK.

I took this statement, along with his failure to raise any concerns over the previous nine days, as confirmation that he had no substantial concerns about my edits, and on that basis, I withdrew my objection to its promotion at DYK, in spite of the fact that I was still very dissatisfied with the article. The article was promoted to the queue shortly afterward.

Yesterday, I returned to Misplaced Pages to find the article has come and gone on the mainpage. To my astonishment, I found that in a series of edits, Jalapenos with a little help from Mbz had reverted almost all my edits pertaining to Israel in the article, essentially restoring in its entirety the original version to which I (and a number of other users) had strenuously objected 9 days before. Once again, Jalapenos left his series of edits to the very last moment, only beginning them a few minutes after the article appeared on the mainpage, leaving the least possible time for those edits to be challenged.

I submit that this behaviour of Jalapenos represents a transparent and egregious breach of WP:GAME, in particular example 9 of the guideline, I quote:

Bad faith negotiating – Luring other editors into a compromise by making a concession, only to withhold that concession after the other side has compromised.

That is precisely what Jalapenos has done in this case. He allowed me to sweat over his article for more than a week in trying to bring it up to scratch, with not a single complaint, assured me at the end of the process that he had no objections to the article in its current form - and then just made wholesale reverts the minute the article appeared on the mainpage.

This series of edits by Jalapenos also represents a blatant, and indeed successful, attempt to subvert DYK's established article review process. Jalapenos knew that his version of the article was heading for rejection at T:TDYK; he allowed me to bring it to a condition in which it could be approved, only to revert to the earlier contentious version once it made it to the main page.

To list just some of his reverts, all made just after midnight 14 December, a few minutes after the article appeared on the main page:

6 December: I remove material with the edit summary dershowitz is not a reliable source.
14 December: J. restores dershowitz.
6 December: I removed Gordon as a "partisan source".
14 December: J. restores Gordon.
6 December: I remove dershowitz from lead as wp:undue.
14 December: J. restores Dershowitz to lead.
6 December: I refactor Katz.
14 December: J. restores "fuller version of Katz".
6 December: I add ref. to Goldstone report.
14 December: J. removes ref. to Goldstone report.
9 December: I remove Kalder from lead per talk page concerns.
14 December: J. restores Kalder to lead over talk page consensus.
9 December: I remove Oren per talk page concerns.
14 December: J. restores Oren over talk page consensus.

Jalapenos knew that all this content was contested, but restored it all anyway - 15 minutes after the article appeared on the main page.

Finally, a look through Jalapenos' talk pages reveals that his main contribution to the encyclopedia appears to be as the author of a string of articles which have been nominated for AFD, most of them being deleted for lack of notability and many with POV concerns, as follows:

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of antisemitism in the United Nations - deleted
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Gaza Strip) - keep
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Claims of Israeli organ harvesting in Haiti - deleted
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tapuah junction stabbing - deleted, overturned at DRV
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Latma TV - keep
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian ax attacks on Israelis - deleted
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/June 2010 West Bank shooting - deleted
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/September 2010 West Bank shooting - merged
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Killing of Rabbi Meir Hai - "keep for now"
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/September 2010 Gaza naval shooting - delete

I am therefore requesting a substantial topic ban for this user. Gatoclass (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Short version of evidence

Since some users have complained that my evidence is too long, here's the short version:

November 23: Jalapenos do exist self noms an article, Civilian casualty ratio, at DYK.
November 24: The article is nominated for deletion.
December 3: The AFD is closed as keep, but 14 out of 22 users express concerns about the content of the article.
Discussion about whether or not to promote the article to the mainpage continues at DYK. After a number of people including myself express POV concerns about the article's content, I eventually reluctantly agree to work with Jalapenos to try and fix the problems. The complete discussion at DYK can be read here.
December 6: I start working on the article.
December 6: I remove Dershowitz from lead as wp:undue.
December 6: I remove Dershowitz as not a reliable source.
December 6: I remove Gordon as a partisan source.
December 6: I refactor Katz.
December 6: I add some info about the Goldstone Report for balance.
December 7: Philip Baird Shearer (PBS) complains about some of the article's content under two different headers, the complete discussions can be read here and here.
December 8: I leave a note at DYK stating that a new user is complaining about the article content.
December 8: Jalapenos responds to my note at DYK as follows: I don't see any "holdup" or a new user objecting to any content. I see PBS objecting to section headings recently added by you. I tend to agree with his assessment that your additions are WP:SYNTH, but it's only section headings, no big deal. Note that he doesn't mention any of my previous deletions. He just says the dispute between me and PBS is "no big deal", and that he sees no reason for a "holdup", ie he sees no substantive disagreements that would stop the article being promoted at DYK.
December 9: After a discussion between PBS and myself on the article's talk page, I agree that Kaldor is a dubious source, and remove her from the article lede.
December 9: After another discussion with PBS on the talk page, I agree with PBS that Oren is also a dubious source and replace him with a better and more comprehensive source.
December 9-13: I add a whole bunch more stuff about some other wars to the article.
December 12: I notify Jalapenos that I am just about done editing the article. Since he hasn't participated in talk page discussion or challenged any of my edits over the last six days, I ask him to confirm that the content as it stands is acceptable to him. He replies: I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK.
December 12: Jalapenos also leaves a note at the DYK discussion: Let's do this. After making his own changes to the article, Gatoclass has told me that he thinks it should be promoted.
December 12: Assuming from these statements, and from his lack of challenges to my edits over the last six days, that he has no problem with the content and the article is stable, I concur that the article is ready for an independent review.
December 13: EdChem approves the current version of the article for promotion.
00:00, December 14: The DYK bot moves the next update containing the hook to Jalapenos' article to the main page.
00:14, December 14: Jalapenos deletes some criticism of Israel from the article.
00:19, 14 December: Jalapenos restores Dershowitz.
00:21, December 14: Jalapenos deletes more criticism of Israel.
00:24, December 14: Jalapenos restores Katz.
00:24, Decmber 14: Jalapenos restores Gordon.
00:26, December 14: Jalapenos restores Dershowitz to lead.
00:27, December 14: Jalapenos restores Kaldor.
00:31, December 14: Jalapenos restores Oren.

So hopefully now the situation is clearer. Jalapenos nominated an article to DYK that numerous users found problematic; I worked on that article for 8 days to NPOV it so it could be promoted; J. made no attempt to challenge any of my edits for any of those 8 days, except to comment that he saw only one minor issue that was "no big deal". He confirmed at the end of that 8 days in response to my query that he had no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors; EdChem approved that same version of the article on the basis that it was NPOV and stable; and then, 15 minutes after the article was promoted to the main page, Jalapenos made wholesale changes that essentially restored his own version of the article which had been headed for rejection 8 days prior.

Jalapenos subverted the DYK quality control process by allowing me to bring the article to a state where it could be approved at DYK, only to revert back to his own heavily contested version a few minutes after the article was promoted to the main page. That constitutes an egregious violation of WP:GAME. He also clearly negotiated in bad faith for an extended period, staying silent through all my changes except to indicate at one point that outstanding disputes were "no big deal", and leading me to believe at the end of that process that he had no substantial objections to the article "in its current form" in order to gain my consent for the article's promotion, only to restore virtually all the contested content when the article went to the mainpage. Gatoclass (talk) 20:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Question: JDE claims that you tagged articles as under dicretionary scanctions after JDE made his edits, and then reported his violation of these sanctions here, and without warning. Is that right? Thanks. - BorisG (talk) 03:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. JDE has been editing in the topic area for two years, he was formally warned about the existence of ARBPIA sanctions six months ago, there's no requirement for him to be reminded of sanctions with tags at the top of talk pages in addition to that. Gatoclass (talk) 12:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

WAW! Arguably, these articles are not in A/I conflict area. Were not until you said so. As for warning: clearly, warning is ALWAYS the normal first step in seeking to stop behaviour you find problematic, in Misplaced Pages and elsewhere in life. In AE, a warning is a requirement. - BorisG (talk) 15:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

ARBPIA covers the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted. This article is obviously related to the conflict, otherwise it wouldn't have information about the conflict in it. J.'s edits were unambiguously related to the conflict. There is no question these edits fall within the domain of ARBPIA. Gatoclass (talk) 16:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

ARBPIA talks about articles while you are talking about edits. It's not the same thing. You are making rules on the fly. - BorisG (talk) 06:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm talking about both articles and edits. JDE's edits fall under ARBPIA in both respects. Gatoclass (talk) 06:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Tznkai

In response to your questions Tznkai - this case is not about the content of Jalapenos' edits. My references to the content were simply a means of supplying some background information about the origins of the dispute.

There are two issues at hand in this case:

Firstly, that J. subverted DYK's established quality control processes, taking advantage of my week's worth of editing to get the article passed at DYK, only to substantially restore his rejected version when the article appeared on the mainpage;
Secondly, that J. engaged in bad faith negotiating per WP:GAME in that he led me to believe he had no substantive issues with the edits I made to the article over a period of more than a week, even assuring me at the end of that process that he had no objections to the article in its current form, before restoring virtually all the content I had removed as the article went to the mainpage.

I consider the first issue above to be an egregious breach of process since it affects content which appears on the main page. His edits made a total mockery of DYK's quality control processes. If we were to allow this sort of thing, we might as well just ditch the DYK process altogether and allow users to promote their own articles with no scrutiny. The second in my opinion represents an unacceptable breach of faith. But both are clear breaches of GAME.

One additional clarification. J. and brewcrewer have both attempted to rebut my case by arguing that J. did not delete all my edits. But I never claimed that. What I said is that J. reverted almost all my edits pertaining to Israel. He restored almost in its entirety his version of the Israeli section of the article, which he knew had been protested at DYK by multiple users, which he knew I had deleted or refactored for NPOV reasons. The only part of that section which he did not remove, presumably because he could think of no grounds for doing so, was the subsection I added on the 1982 Lebanon War, but even there he made a deletion.

However, he in fact went even further than that, restoring virtually all of the material he knew was contested - not only in the Israeli section, but also in the lead, restoring kalder and dershowitz, and in the NATO section, restoring Oren. Kalder and Oren, moreover, were disputed not only by myself but also by Philip Baird Shearer on the talk page, so that these last two edits were made not only in subversion of the DYK process and in violation of GAME as described above, but also against talk page consensus. The fact that he left some other material I added to the article is irrelevant. The point is that he restored virtually all the contested content, knowing that content had already failed to achieve consensus at DYK, doing so a few minutes after the article's appearance on the main page when he had had the opportunity to contest those edits for more than a week, and after assuring me disingenuously that he had no objections to the article in its current form. Gatoclass (talk) 07:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

BTW, Jalapenos' claim that the article appeared on the main page at 6:00 am 14 December is incorrect. The article appeared on the main page at 0:00 14 December, and J. began his reverts 14 minutes later. Gatoclass (talk) 09:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

Regarding the proposed remedies, why not simply make it that he can't edit articles in the topic area at all so long as they are on the mainpage? It's hardly an onerous restriction, and it would completely prevent any further attempts at gaming. Gatoclass (talk) 23:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to EdJohnston

First of all, let me say that I'm not fussed whether Jalapenos is sanctioned for his gaming or not. My primary concern in bringing this case to AE was to send a message to Jalapenos and any other editor contemplating gaming the DYK process as he did that it is unacceptable behaviour. In that regard, I will consider the purpose of this case served if J. is warned against any repeat of this conduct.

However, I must take issue with Ed's suggestion that the case may not fall under the purview of ARBPIA. I don't know what he means by this, but Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions clearly states amongst other things that serious breaches of any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process in the topic area are actionable. J.'s edits were self-evidently related to the topic area, so that's not an issue. The question then is whether or not his conduct constituted a "serious breach" of expected standards of behaviour or normal editorial processes. Obviously not everybody is familiar with DYK's processes but I would have thought the GAMEing aspect would be clear enough to anyone who gave it a moment's thought. If an article has been through a review process that clears it for mainpage promotion, and then someone comes along and restores large slabs of contested content that had previously been removed as a result of that review while the article is on the main page, of course that is gaming. Otherwise we might as well just scrap the review process altogether and let editors promote whatever they like to the main page. Gatoclass (talk) 10:47, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

On reflection, I feel obliged to respond to some more of EdJohnston's comments, since I consider them to be quite misinformed.

First of all, Ed asks: This article was created by Jalapenos, but I wonder how it became his duty to fix all the perceived problems before it could become a DYK. Firstly, if you author an article and submit it to DYK, the responsibility is very much on you to ensure it complies with both content policies and DYK rules. Why on earth should it be otherwise? Does anyone nominate an article for promotion at GA or FAC and expect somebody else to fix it for them? I am totally mystified by this comment of Ed's. It is even odder given that Ed himself notes that I did substantial work on this article to bring it up to DYK standard. I was under absolutely no obligation to do so, and the article would have failed without my work to it. Ed's question would more appropriately be Why should Gatoclass have to work so hard to fix somebody's else's DYK submission? I can assure you I've been asking myself precisely the same question.

Secondly, Ed says The actual DYK hook was "... that according to a study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian casualty ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10 civilian deaths for every soldier death?" That hook sounds innocuous and does not have an obvious POV. I very much agree. That's because the original hook submitted by Jalapenos was rejected as agenda driven, as a simple look at the DYK discussion demonstrates.

These comments of Ed's along with some others indicate to me that he hasn't been paying much attention to the evidence presented in this case. Ed, if as you suggested you don't have the "patience" to give proper consideration to this case, then I request you leave its adjudication to those who do. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Tznkai's proposed remedy

While the issue of individual sanctions is very much a secondary concern to me in this case, in relation to Tznkai's proposed remedy below, I feel obliged to point out that a proposal to place J. under 1RR is no sanction at all given that all articles in the topic area are already covered by such a restriction. IMO it would be just as well to impose no sanction at all rather than a faux restriction of this type, which may end up sending entirely the wrong message. What I would like to see in any remedy is at least a clear statement that his reverts in this instance were "a clear example of disruptive editing" to borrow Slp's phrase, and for him to be cautioned against future misconduct of this type. Gatoclass (talk) 05:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Jalapenos do exist

Statement by Jalapenos do exist

This is my first time here, and I'm kind of taken aback, so I may be missing something. I understand that Gatoclass is accusing me of having violated WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions with one edit to World Conference against Racism 2001 and nine edits to Civilian casualty ratio, which I authored. But none of these edits were made to articles that were under ARBPIA discretionary sanctions, so how could I have violated them?

Civilian casualty ratio is about a general military history topic. Its only relevance to the Arab-Israeli conflict in particular is that one of the ratio's extreme values appears from the data and is explicitly stated by a notable observer to have been achieved within the Arab-Israeli conflict. Why should it be under ARBPIA sanctions? When I checked a few minutes ago, I did not see that anyone had ever put an ARBPIA warning tag on it or expressed in any other way the notion that it should be under these sanctions .

Similarly, World Conference against Racism 2001 is about a United Nations conference on racism, not about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Here, too, nobody had ever put an ARBPIA warning tag on the article or expressed in any other way the notion that it should be under ARBPIA sanctions. After I made the edit in question, someone did put an ARBPIA warning tag on the article. The person was - you guessed it - Gatoclass himself . I fail to see the logic of placing the tag on this article, but that's a discussion for another time. The point is that I had no way of knowing that Gatoclass would, in the future, put the tag there, and I had no other reason to suspect that anyone would consider this article to be within the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I should note that the third article mentioned in Gatoclass's accusation (in the additional comments section), Durban III, which I authored, is exactly like the second one in these regards. In no way is it evident that someone would consider it to be within the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict, its only connection being peripheral. And nobody had ever expressed the notion that the article should be under ARBPIA sanctions until Gatoclass himself placed a warning tag on it after the edits for which he accuses me of violating ARBPIA sanctions .

Gatoclass's various charges in the "additional comments" section are as empty as the accusation itself. I'll respond to them, too, because I want to protect my reputation.

The edit I made to WCAR 2001, supposedly "highly tendentious", was: "The conference included distribution of the antisemitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, portraits of Adolf Hitler, and expressions of hatred for Jews." This was virtually a quote from a news article by Gloria Galloway in the Canadian newspaper The Globe and Mail, which said, in the voice of the writer: "The initial conference in 2001 included distribution of the Chronicles of the Elders of Zion, a fake text purporting to be a Jewish plan for global domination, portraits of Adolph Hitler, and expressions of hatred for Jews" . (Interestingly, the Globe and Mail paragraph has since been changed online to the point where it does not support my original edit. This may be why Gatoclass challenged it, and if that's the case he was right to do so.) The edit was improper, Gatoclass says, because it "was made less than 40 minutes before the article was due for (proxy) promotion, leaving almost no time for anybody to see it and prevent it going to the main page". Huh? WTF is "proxy promotion"? This article, several years old, was not up for promotion. A different article, Durban III was up for DYK promotion at around the same time, a fact that I was not even aware of. Am I supposed to constantly check DYK so that I can avoid making edits to any article related to an article about to be promoted there?

Next we have the suggestion that I gamed the system with my behavior regarding Civilian casualty ratio and the process of its DYK promotion. I'll ignore Gatoclass's extremely long prefatory attempt to discredit the article itself, because it's irrelevant. His point seems to be that I deceived him about my position on his series of changes to the article in order to get him to support it for DYK promotion. Here is my position, which has never changed and which is shared by other editors (who are not "one or two of my buddies", by the way): some of his edits were bad, but these bad edits were not so significant as to make the article unsuitable for DYK. I happened to have stated this position to Gatoclass, both on the DYK talk and on his talk page (cited, oddly, by Gatoclass). If I had wanted to deceive him about my position, I probably would have said something - anything - to him that was actually inconsistent with my position. I did not.

Gatoclass's notion that I deceived him also seems to rely on the fairly solipsistic assumption that his opinion is what decided whether the article would go to DYK. Since I don't and did not share this assumption, I had no reason to care an awful lot about his opinion, and thus no reason to try and change it through deception. In fact, seeing at the time that he was the only editor to object to the article's promotion (after I had responded to concerns by other editors), I thought that an article would not ultimately be denied DYK because of a single editor objecting. But I was frustrated that the discussion had been dragging on for so long because of it, so when Gatoclass came around, I happily reported it on the talk page. The idea that I was negotiating in bad faith by making treacherous concessions seems very odd to me, for the simple reason that we were never negotiating and so I made no concessions.

Next there are the edits that I made countering some of Gatoclass's changes to Civilian casualty ratio. There are so many falsehoods and half truths here that I'm going to have to move to bullet points.

He allowed me to sweat over his article for more than a week in trying to bring it up to scratch, with not a single complaint... Wrong, I did complain on the DYK talk page (diff provided above), and so did others, both on the DYK talk page and on the article's talk page.
...assured me at the end of the process that he had "no objections to the article in its current form". This is a misleading fragment of what I said. The complete sentence was: "I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors." What I actually said was an accurate description of my position.
I took this statement, along with his failure to raise any concerns over the previous nine days, as confirmation that he had no substantial concerns about my edits, Again, I did raise substantial concerns, including the specific concern that another editor was correct in characterizing some of his edits as WP:SYNTH (above diff from DYK talk). Even if I hadn't, I don't see how Gatoclass's inference would have been justified.
and on that basis, I withdrew my objection to its promotion at DYK, in spite of the fact that I was still very dissatisfied with the article. Baffling. Why is the question of whether I had any substantial concerns over his edits a reason to withdraw his objection to DYK? If he was "still very dissatisfied with the article" he could have continued to object. What does he want from me?
To my astonishment, I found that in a series of edits, Jalapenos with a little help from Mbz... There seems to be an insinuation here that I acted in coordination with Mbz. I did not. Mbz was simply one of the other editors who objected to Gatoclass's changes.
...had reverted almost all my edits pertaining to Israel in the article, essentially restoring in its entirety the original version to which I (and a number of other users) had strenuously objected 9 days before. I didn't essentially restore in its entirety the original version. Many of Gatoclass's changes were good (i.e. they added relevant, sourced material), and I left them untouched. Perhaps I reverted "almost all" of his edits pertaining to Israel. I made a lot of changes, and I wasn't interested in what country the edits pertained to; I was interested in whether they were policy compliant or not.
Once again, Jalapenos left his series of edits to the very last moment, only beginning them a few minutes after the article appeared on the mainpage, leaving the least possible time for those edits to be challenged. Looking at the records, this appears to be false. I see that I made a series of changes slightly after midnight on 14 December, and that the article appeared on DYK at 06:00 that day (Misplaced Pages:Recent_additions#14_December_2010). My knowledge about the DYK process is shaky, but if my motivation were to keep the edits from being challenged before the article appeared on DYK, wouldn't it have been the worst timing to edit six hours before it went to DYK, when there would have been the most attention on it and more than sufficient time to change the edits? The reason I didn't make the edits earlier was because I carefully looked at all of Gatoclass's changes only on 12 December, after he told me that he was "pretty much all done" . On 13 December I was busy and didn't edit any articles. On 14 December I sat down for a Wiki session and saw a template on my talk page that the article was going to be on DYK. I vaguely remember that when I sat down I intended to edit other articles and procrastinate on this one, and I was spurred to prioritize it by the pride of seeing the template. If my memory is correct, there was an indirect connection between the DYK timing and the timing of my edits, but I don't see anything improper about the connection.
To list just some of his reverts... Indeed, some. The selection and the inaccurate comments about the talk page seem to be an attempt to portray the situation as if I was the only person who had a problem with his edits. Boy, was this ever not the case. Not only did other editors object to his edits, but Gatoclass was clearly aware of this because he actually tried to stall the DYK process because of another editor's objections to his edits. I'm going to repeat that because it's just so unbelievable. Gatoclass unilaterally made a series of edits to the article up for DYK. Another editor immediately objected to some of the edits. Gatoclass tried to stall the DYK process by saying that the objections to his own recent edits constituted a "dispute" that had to be resolved. A few days later, he tries to portray my objections as idiosyncratic and against consensus.
Jalapenos knew that all this content was contested But only by Gatoclass.
but restored it all anyway, 15 minutes after the article appeared on the main page. Again, this appears to be false.

His final point is that I've authored articles that have been nominated for AfD. First, a couple of minor corrections: I am not the author of Latma TV, and I requested deletion myself for Claims of Israeli organ harvesting in Haiti. More to the point: yes, I've done a lot of things on Misplaced Pages, and authored many articles. Some of my articles, especially among the ones that actually are about the Arab-Israeli conflict, have been nominated for AfD. (Gatoclass didn't list them all. I don't know what criteria his selection is based on.) Those who have had shared the misfortune of editing in this area know that pretty much every article is nominated for AfD at some point. I'm proud of the fact that the community consensus on most of those articles was that they should be kept.

After reading the accusation again and again, I can't escape the feeling that Gatoclass is making it with unclean hands. He is accusing me of violating ARBIA sanctions. Why did he omit the fact that he is the (only) one who said that the relevant articles should be under ARBPIA sanctions, and that he did so after the edits for which he accuses me? This fact is, after all, clearly important to understanding the accusation, and he must have been aware of it. For that matter, why did he place the tags after I made the edits for which he's accusing me, when he was involved in both articles and was clearly aware of their nature before I made those edits ( and see history)? Finally, why did he immediately run here without so much as telling me that he thought my edits were improper? After all, we had recently interacted in a collegial way. And since he clearly did a lot of research on me before making this complaint, he must have seen that I've received compliments and barnstars for my work from editors with diverse POVs (the barnstars are displayed on my user page). If an editor is in good standing, wouldn't it make sense to at least talk to him before filing a formal complaint?

Jeepers, that took a long time. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Interim questions

Having read the discussion among the uninvolved administrators so far, I'm left with the simple question: what did actually I do wrong? EdJohnston asks a similar question, and has yet to receive a satisfactory answer. Tznkai previously said that what I did wrong was "riding roughshod over the opposition" instead of seeking compromise, by restoring an attributed statement by Alan Dershowitz to the article when four users objected to that content. But the thing is that nobody, except perhaps Gatoclass himself, objected to the content being in the article; these four users objected to it being in the hook. And, as a result of their concerns (despite disagreeing with them, explaining why I disagreed, and not receiving a response), I proposed two alternative hooks, one of which was then unanimously accepted. (Complete DYK talk here and article talk at time of my last edit here .) Isn't this exactly how compromise is supposed to work? So, what did I do wrong?
It seems that my stated concerns of unclean hands and dishonesty in Gatoclass's accusation are supported to some extent or another by four participants in this discussion so far: Brewcrewer, BorisG, Cptnono and Epeefleche. (Original version of the accusation before being "shortened", with my response, here: .) But, as of now, I don't see any treatment of these concerns in the uninvolved admin section. I'm wondering if we can expect to see any treatment of this before the case is closed.

Jalapenos do exist (talk) 20:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment on Tznkai's response

To my mind, the response reflects and relies on a misunderstanding of what happened at the DYK talk page. The opposition to the hook was clearly an application of a standard that does not and could not apply to article content. Specifically, the standard that a significant view published in a reliable source should not be in a hook if it is partisan or arguably partisan. However, WP:NPOV directs editors writing articles to represent fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. In my actions at the DYK I immediately accepted these editors' standard in practice as a matter of compromise, suggesting an alternative that was unanimously accepted, and upon reflection accepted it in principle as well. In my actions at the article I operated according to a clear and consistent principle of including all significant views on the topic of the article (that I could find online), according to WP:NPOV. None of my edits to the article were contrary to any view expressed by any editor other than Gatoclass, either on the article talk page o on the DYK talk page. The question "so what did I actually do wrong?", the core of this whole affair, still stands. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 12:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by EdChem

I was the editor who approved the DYK nomination and hook. I did so having previously expressed severe reservations about the article and its content. When I approved the hook, I checked to see that the material in the article that concerned me had been brought into compliance with policy. I congratulated Gatoclass on his work and also added a DYKmake credit for him, in recognition of the work he describes above. I would not have approved the nomination with the article changes that were subsequently made in place, and I consider the actions of Jalapenos do exist to be very poor editing behaviour. EdChem (talk) 11:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Follow Up, having read Jalapenos do exist's (JDE's) post, and having thought further...

I am not sure that this is the right place for dealing with the issues raised by JDE's actions – as in, whether ARBPIA provides the most apposite framework – but I am sure his actions call for a response.
I dispute JDE's claim that only Gatoclass raised objections. In this post at T:TDYK on the nomination of the civilian casualty ratio article, I noted that there were three dispute tags, on the page. I now know that they were added by Gatoclass, and were removed shortly after by JDE, but was not so aware when I posted my comment. However, my edit summary ("with three dispute tags (justified ones), not a chance this is going to get cleaned up in time") makes it perfectly clear that I was not just taking the presence of the tags as evidence of neutrality problems, but I had independently formed the view they were appropriate tags. As for timing, the nomination was already 13 days old at the time, hence my view that the problems would not be addressed quickly enough for DYK.
The AfD contains plenty of comments indicating concerns about POV, separate from those expressed by Gatoclass.
From my perspective, the article had two major flaws. The first was that it was not global in its coverage, devoting something more than half the article to Israeli / Palestinian / Middle Eastern issues. The second was that its presentation of Israeli material (especially) was not neutral. Gatoclass' changes addressed both of these problems, and the reversion / changes JDE made after the DYK nomination was approved left the new globalised content in place but reversed most of the Israeli coverage to restore the highly POV perspective.
When I approved the hook and article I explicitly approved the neutral hook ALT1, credited for his Gatoclass contributions and I indicated that my earlier concerns had been addressed ("I am now satisfied with the article"). To be 2000% clear, I would not have approved the version with the changes JDE made subsequently, and whether or not his actions are sanctionable here they certainly warrant discussion at DYK. Nominating a POV article for DYK, allowing the neutrality to be fixed enough for the nomination to be approved, then re-adding the POV for main page exposure is unacceptable behaviour. No matter what else, JDE has seriously damaged the extent to which I will be willing to AGF on any future DYK nominations of his with POV problems. DYK has been criticised recently for material which we have allowed to reach the main page, and in some cases justifiably. Gaming the system to try to put POV material onto the main page is a serious matter and DYK has a serious issue to address irrespective of what is decided here.
This diff compares the last version from Gatoclass with the present JDE version (nearly 24 hours and 25 edits later). I contend that it demonstrates the POV being added. Note particularly that very similar comments from Dershowitz appear in the lede and twice in the text, and his name appears 5 times in the text in JDE's version. The section Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip appears to entirely omit any Palestinian perspective; I have the suspicion that the Palestian view of the Israeli Defence Forces is less rosy.
I regret that I did not say more at T:TDYK to make explicit that I agreed with Gatoclass' concerns about the article, and those expressed in the AfD, and I was awaiting the progress he was making. I did not comment when the dispute tags were removed because I thought it would just provoke disagreements, and I felt whether the tags were on the article or not, the DYK nomination would still not pass without problems being addressed.
To address a couple of other concerns:
- No, I have not been canvassed in any way either about the DYK nomination or this AE thread.
- No, I am not anti-Israeli... one of the only other DYK noms I have !voted be disallowed was this post about the Jewish lawyer article... I considered the proposed hook / nomination to be "gratuitously offensive", and I even raised the article in a post to Jimbo.

EdChem (talk) 08:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC) copy edited EdChem (talk) 13:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Jalapenos do exist

I was involved with the World Conference against Racism 2001 and Durban III articles and the AfD and DYK nominations of the civilian casualties articles and endorse Gatoclass' account of Jalapenos do exist's conduct in relation to these articles. My proposal to add some balance to the Durban III article by including a mention that the references quoted in the article had stated that most UN members had voted in favour of the conference being held were dismissed by Jalapenos do exist as part of me "being silly": . I walked away from this article as I've got no interest in being involved in the Arab-Israeli edit wars. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I too have worked on articles that JDE has submitted for inclusion at DYK as well as elsewhere. I also endorse Gatoclass' report and would like to also point out this edit made to exploding animal which was extremely POV and unsourced and which they were happier to edit war over than discuss (see their talk and the article history). The changes made to the CCR article, partcularly reinserting the comments by Alan Dershowitz, whilst on the main page represent an unbelievable gaming of the system. SmartSE (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Brewcrewer

Gatoclass says: essentially restoring in its entirety the original version to which I (and a number of other users) had strenuously objected 9 days before. This does not appear to be true. JDE's final edits to the article appear to have included many of Gatoclass's substantial edits. See the difference in nine days of Gatoclass's and JDE's latest edits.

Also JDE's comment "I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors", gave a greater indication that he was unsatisfied rather then satisfied with all of Gatoclass's changes to the article. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 14:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Unomi

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Please note that the actual recommendation was given in this AE request, which simultaneously resulted in Mbz1 being topic banned for 3 months from all content and discussions related to the Israeli-Arab conflict, broadly construed and without exception for reverting vandalism or BLP violations. In any case the recommendation was for Gatoclass to not use administrative tools to gain an advantage, something which I have not seen evidence presented for him doing. Please note that Mbz1 was precisely topic banned for casting aspersions. u n☯mi 01:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Comment regarding Mbz1 I did not intend to contribute further to the AE thread than to clarify the context of the particular recommendation that Mbz1 misrepresented. But now I am compelled to respond to Mbz1's charges. I have previously had disagreements over article content with Gatoclass and Mbz1, where Gatoclass supported and collaborated with Mbz1, that discussion is here if anyone is interested, from this I got the impression that Gatoclass cares deeply about DYK in and of itself, as he was trying to avoid a unilateral retraction by Mbz1. Any editor can look at Mbz1's comments to Gatoclass on his talk page and its archives, example: "You are really doing a great job on Tub'a Abu Kariba As'ad, and I mean it! I will for sure ask for your help next time I write an article :) Thanks. --Mbz1 (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)" and "Hi Gatoclass, I am glad you liked my new article. ☺Don't understand how could I have forgotten to ask you to copy edit it ☺? Glad you found it anyway ☺. I'd like to ask you a question please. If after your copy-editing something will be left out of the article ☺, would you mind, if I am to promote you as a creator in the DYK nomination for the article? Regards.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC)". The current vilification of Gatoclass by Mbz1 strikes me as opportunistic in the extreme and seems to serve only to run interference and avoid scrutiny of the matters brought here by Gatoclass. As for the diffs that Mbz1 present regarding Sol Hachuel, please read the article, it is not long. I think that they precisely show why Mbz1 is incapable of working on articles where there is risk of her becoming emotionally attached - The main sources are Folktales of the Jews, Volume 1 which has 2 parts on it, the first is a rendition of one version of the folk tale, and the second is a commentary on it, crucially mentioning that a. various accounts of events differ and b. that the person telling the tale to them, had variations of their own. The commentary also uses language such as legend, tale and rendition, the article that Mbz1 would have us think above critique has not the slightest mention of such concerns. Note that above Mbz1 says that she was burned alive, I have yet to find a source that doesn't claim that she was beheaded, clearly Mbz1 either confuses herself or drastically misread Moshe Ben Sa adon's text, with its reference to leviticus 1:9. The sources can't even agree on which year it was supposed to have happened in, some saying 1834, others 1831 or even 1830, likewise the age of Sol changes from 13 - 17. The most 'serious' source I could find, Sharon Vance, "Sol Ha-Saddikah: Historical figure, saint, literary heroine looks at the underlying framing of the different renditions for different audiences and narrator intent, particularly politics and stereotypes, acknowledging that none of the renditions available are 'professional histories' but are rather "historical documents for the images of Christian, Muslim and Jewish men and women that were current in their literary traditions at the time these texts were written." I have documented similar willful neglect of conveying the content of the sources at the Yolande Harmer article where she, in a 3 page source used 10 times in the article, studiously ignores what Benny Morris and Ian Black presents as: "She did, however have one notable success in this period, penetrating the US Embassy and obtaining secret cables sent by Jefferson Patterson .. to the State Department in Washington. One of them, which reached the Israeli Foreign Ministry in August, contained militarily useful information about the numbers of Tunisian and Algerian troops fighting with the Arab forces in Palestine" - one notable success and it is not mentioned anywhere in the article. I added that information when checking the sources, but I see that she later removed it with the ES of "not confirmed by other sources" the gall of which beggars belief considering the stature of Benny Morris, the apparent lack of sources contesting it and the fact that half of the article is sourced to only that particular source, yet was left untouched. Let me be blunt here, it is my impression that Mbz1 does not care one iota for the empiric quality of our articles, certainly not when they touch on matters which she seems to have a compulsion about. Rather, she abuses wikipedia and DYK to promote a narrative that she finds valuable. I understand that these are "content issues", individually, and I certainly do not expect resolution of them here, however I do believe that they show a tendentious approach to editing which show why Mbz1's contribution in this field cannot be left without scrutiny. Framing my concerns as a "personal vendetta" is convenient, but false, I would take any editor behaving in this manner to task. u n☯mi 05:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Collapsed responses to comments that are now removed

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Please note that the actual recommendation was given in this AE request, which simultaneously resulted in Mbz1 being topic banned for 3 months from all content and discussions related to the Israeli-Arab conflict, broadly construed and without exception for reverting vandalism or BLP violations. In any case the recommendation was for Gatoclass to not use administrative tools to gain an advantage, something which I have not seen evidence presented for him doing. Please note that Mbz1 was precisely topic banned for casting aspersions. u n☯mi 01:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment regarding Mbz1

I did not intend to contribute further to the AE thread than to clarify the context of the particular recommendation that Mbz1 misrepresented. But now I am compelled to respond to Mbz1's charges.

I have previously had disagreements over article content with Gatoclass and Mbz1, where Gatoclass supported and collaborated with Mbz1, that discussion is here if anyone is interested, from this I got the impression that Gatoclass cares deeply about DYK in and of itself, as he was trying to avoid a unilateral retraction by Mbz1. Any editor can look at Mbz1's comments to Gatoclass on his talk page and its archives, example: "You are really doing a great job on Tub'a Abu Kariba As'ad, and I mean it! I will for sure ask for your help next time I write an article :) Thanks. --Mbz1 (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)" and "Hi Gatoclass, I am glad you liked my new article. ☺Don't understand how could I have forgotten to ask you to copy edit it ☺? Glad you found it anyway ☺. I'd like to ask you a question please. If after your copy-editing something will be left out of the article ☺, would you mind, if I am to promote you as a creator in the DYK nomination for the article? Regards.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC)". The current vilification of Gatoclass by Mbz1 strikes me as opportunistic in the extreme and seems to serve only to run interference and avoid scrutiny of the matters brought here by Gatoclass.

As for the diffs that Mbz1 present regarding Sol Hachuel, please read the article, it is not long. I think that they precisely show why Mbz1 is incapable of working on articles where there is risk of her becoming emotionally attached - The main sources are Folktales of the Jews, Volume 1 which has 2 parts on it, the first is a rendition of one version of the folk tale, and the second is a commentary on it, crucially mentioning that a. various accounts of events differ and b. that the person telling the tale to them, had variations of their own. The commentary also uses language such as legend, tale and rendition, the article that Mbz1 would have us think above critique has not the slightest mention of such concerns. Note that above Mbz1 says that she was burned alive, I have yet to find a source that doesn't claim that she was beheaded, clearly Mbz1 either confuses herself or drastically misread Moshe Ben Sa adon's text, with its reference to leviticus 1:9. The sources can't even agree on which year it was supposed to have happened in, some saying 1834, others 1831 or even 1830, likewise the age of Sol changes from 13 - 17. The most 'serious' source I could find, Sharon Vance, "Sol Ha-Saddikah: Historical figure, saint, literary heroine looks at the underlying framing of the different renditions for different audiences and narrator intent, particularly politics and stereotypes, acknowledging that none of the renditions available are 'professional histories' but are rather "historical documents for the images of Christian, Muslim and Jewish men and women that were current in their literary traditions at the time these texts were written."

I have documented similar willful neglect of conveying the content of the sources at the Yolande Harmer article where she, in a 3 page source used 10 times in the article, studiously ignores what Benny Morris and Ian Black presents as: "She did, however have one notable success in this period, penetrating the US Embassy and obtaining secret cables sent by Jefferson Patterson .. to the State Department in Washington. One of them, which reached the Israeli Foreign Ministry in August, contained militarily useful information about the numbers of Tunisian and Algerian troops fighting with the Arab forces in Palestine" - one notable success and it is not mentioned anywhere in the article. I added that information when checking the sources, but I see that she later removed it with the ES of "not confirmed by other sources" the gall of which beggars belief considering the stature of Benny Morris, the apparent lack of sources contesting it and the fact that half of the article is sourced to only that particular source, yet was left untouched.

Let me be blunt here, it is my impression that Mbz1 does not care one iota for the empiric quality of our articles, certainly not when they touch on matters which she seems to have a compulsion about. Rather, she abuses wikipedia and DYK to promote a narrative that she finds valuable.

I understand that these are "content issues", individually, and I certainly do not expect resolution of them here, however I do believe that they show a tendentious approach to editing which show why Mbz1's contribution in this field cannot be left without scrutiny. Framing my concerns as a "personal vendetta" is convenient, but false, I would take any editor behaving in this manner to task. u n☯mi 05:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Re Jalapenos and Civilian_casualty_ratio

Leadup

03 December AfD concludes, noting that there was not a strong consensus for keep.
There are a large number of editors raising concerns regarding npov specifically regarding the presentation of Israel, both at the AfD and at DYK.

According to the DYK thread:

17:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Jalapenos states: "Let's do this. After making his own changes to the article, Gatoclass has told me that he thinks it should be promoted. So do I. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC)", at that point the article looks like this.

19:58, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Mbz1 states: "I see no problems with the article. It should be promoted.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:58, 12 December 2010 (UTC)"

It would almost be ABF to not understand that as Mbz1 and Jalapenos considering it in a state where it can be considered stable. No tags are added, no concerns seem raised on the article talk page at or around that time.

10:45, 13 December 2010 User:EdChem accepts the article on behalf of DYK stating: "I am now satisfied with the article and with ALT1 about the international red cross. I have also added a DYKmake for Gatoclass, who has made a substantial contribution to the article. EdChem (talk) 10:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC)".

At that point the article looks like this.

The diff between the state of when Jalapenos intimated consent and EdChem granted DYK is negligible

Thoughts on Jalapenos Comments

Jalapenos seems to plead ignorance on the requirement that articles to be shown on the frontpage are relatively stable and uncontested, this seems an unlikely condition as he, at the very least, must have read "The article has three dispute tags, and the DYK rules disallow any dispute tags in articles going to the main page. EdChem (talk) 11:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)" on the DYK thread, reinserting information that he knew was contested prior to a discussion that settled the matter would certainly achieve that.

Jalapenos writes above "Again, I did raise substantial concerns, including the specific concern that another editor was correct in characterizing some of his edits as WP:SYNTH", but submits only:
16:05, 8 December 2010 (UTC) "I don't see any "holdup" or a new user objecting to any content. I see PBS objecting to section headings recently added by you. I tend to agree with his assessment that your additions are WP:SYNTH, but it's only section headings, no big deal. Jalapenos do exist (talk)".
Note that the synth was regarding whether to characterize some of them as conventional vs asymmetric.

At which point the article looks like this
and
17:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC) "I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK. Jalapenos do exist (talk)", as mentioned above.

At no point in this period is "Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harward Law School" in the article, much less the lede, no additional content has been offered for discussion, none have been boldly edited in. Not a single comment regarding specific issues that Jalapenos, or Mbz1 wanted addressed seems to have been forwarded. The substantial concerns seem to have been the no big deal headings.

Yet, 8 days after the Dershowitz section was removed Jalapenos reinserts it verbatim, minutes after the article is on the frontpage. Note that Jalapenos did not argue against Carwils objection to Dershowitz at the AfD, he did not contest the removal by Gatoclass nor the specific issues that spurred it. The same goes for the remaining edits that are plain to see from the recent edit history, I see no point to analyze them individually other than to say that they do in fact support Jalapenos statement of "Perhaps I reverted "almost all" of his edits pertaining to Israel." - all content related changes were to Israeli related sections, and the majority went directly against concerns raised at AfD and DYK, as well as the talk page itself. u n☯mi 08:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment re proposed remedy

I find it welcome that new options for remedies are explored, I do think that it will leave the parties that felt directly wronged in this unsatisfied, I know I would ;) Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see how it ends, so how can I not support it. Welcome to the ARBPIA grind Tznkai. u n☯mi 19:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment re what could be a better remedy

The proposed one. Have a look at the state of the article when it was mainspaced. Compare that to the current, which was the state that it was in when it was on the frontpage, the material relating to Israel is nearly identical, terrorists has become millitants, at least in some cases, and the lede has become slightly more fluffed, that is *all*. None of the issues raised at the AfD, were addressed, at least not long enough that it mattered for the 1.8k viewers that now might be led to believe that this is the standard to which we hold ourselves. If we really think that this is a Hanlons razor issue, we should likely issue a topic ban out of sheer WP:COMPETENCE concerns. If on the other hand we accept that the user had no intentions of letting other people influence the parts of the article that they were concerned with, and that they also did it solely for the purpose of maximizing exposure, (as he would know they would be reverted when discovered) then where are we at? u n☯mi 20:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment Re EdJohnston writing: "This article was created by Jalapenos, but I wonder how it became his duty to fix all the perceived problems before it could become a DYK."

The DYK process concerns both the hook, but also the article as it will have maximum exposure on behalf of wikipedia. It was not Jalapenos responsibility to fix them, it was not anyones responsibility, but as shown here, if the issues were not fixed then it would simply not be suitable for displaying on the main page, by consensus of the editors there as noted by Schwede66. Gatoclass took it upon himself to fix the issues, and the editors involved seemed to agree that there were no outstanding issues, including mbz1 and Jalapenos, so it was approved by EdChem. 14 minutes after the article has gained maximum exposure, Jalapenos starts editing it away from the consensus version, and after 26 minutes of being on the front page all the Israeli related contested elements are restored. u n☯mi 11:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment on Jalapenos Interim questions

Jalapeno writes: What did actually I do wrong? I think that this statement shows that Jalapeno has no intention of taking editor concerns seriously.

He downplays the extent of the text reverted, reducing it to the Alan Dershowitz quote, when it has been shown that within 26 minutes of being on the front page all the Israeli related contested elements are restored. He also stated that only Gatoclass objected to that content, which is specious framing. Excerpts of comments from the AfD regarding issues:

Most of the material currently in this article is a selective, biased, inaccurate content fork from those pages. -- Timeshifter
Further, dispassionate research, where available, should displace polemicists like Dershowitz .--Carwil
It appears to be a content fork specifically designed to discuss a particular POV about the civlian casualty ratio in a specific conflict. --Another clown
Delete, per nom, very dubious soapboxing. There probably is a notable topic in the subject but it would have to be written from specialist sources treating the overall topic, not cobbled together from sources about individual conflicts as this puff-piece is. --Misarxist
Delete As per Misarxist. -- Nwlaw63
The POV and undue weight does need some work, but cleanup can fix that, as can the bias towards recentivism.-- bahamut001

So, what did I do wrong?
-- The answer is: the same thing you are doing now, blatantly trying to game the system.

He goes on to write: It seems that my stated concerns of unclean hands and dishonesty in Gatoclass's accusation are supported to some extent or another by four participants in this discussion so far: Brewcrewer, BorisG, Cptnono and Epeefleche. (Original version of the accusation before being "shortened", with my response, here: .) I am a bit confused at these allegations to be honest, I would like to ask Jalapenos to distill evidence of "unclean hands and dishonesty", as near as I can tell they center around 2 items:

1. Gatoclass did not immediately add the ARBPIA tags.

I have to wonder how jalapeno could think that ARBPIA wouldn't cover the article when the article as he created it was almost entirely within ARBPIA. The fact that the tags weren't added is irrelevant and doesn't excuse his actions.

2. Gatoclass stated that he believed that Jalapenos had no objections, to which Jalapenos states that he did say he had substantial objections.

As shown just above, Jalapenos does not specify any objections, he merely notes at DYK that PBS has some, and refers to them as 'no big deal':

I don't see any "holdup" or a new user objecting to any content. I see PBS objecting to section headings recently added by you. I tend to agree with his assessment that your additions are WP:SYNTH, but it's only section headings, no big deal. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 16:05, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Jalapenos seems to argue that this statement:

I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

combined with the statement above should have given clear indication that he meant to revert to his preferred version within 30 minutes of it being shown on the mainpage. I do not think that this level of contempt for other editors and our community norms should be tolerated, much less go without sanction. u n☯mi 22:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment re Tznkais proposed resolution

All of Arab-Israeli articles are already under 1rr. Please see this discussion and this notice. So at best it simply means that it takes effect for him even if the template has not been added by a user yet, not quite sure of the net value. Anyway, I too grow weary of this AE. u n☯mi 05:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sol

In regard to the below question of actual damages, I think the idea is that editors agreed to the removal of the POV material only to side-step administrative procedure and quickly re-inserted it after the article was put on the main page which, if that's the case, would be blatant gamesmanship. Regardless of how it happened, WP ended up featuring an article with a healthy serving of POV-pushing. Whoops. Sol (talk) 06:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by BorisG

When I read Gatoclass's statement, I thought it was a serious attempt to game the system, but upon reading JDE's defence, I see this is not so at all. The whole thing is very confusing (with walls of text from both sides), but it seems that Gatoclass has deliberately misquoted JDE at least on one occasion. If that happenned, then he may not be with clean hands. Not to mention that there is nothing wrong with writing articles that are later deleted upon consensus. I think there is no obvious case against JDE.

The misquoting is now removed, but it seems that Gatoclass tagged articles as under dicretionary scanctions after JDE made his edits, and now claims violation of these sanctions, and without warning. Something is not right. - BorisG (talk) 03:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The articles in question are outside the scope of ARBRIA (or were outside until Gatoclass tagged them so) and no warning was given to JDE. Thus this request is inappropriate and should be dismissed. Gatoclass needs to be sanctioned for bringing inappropriate request here. I know it's unlikely to happen (I doubt admins even look at comments here) but I think the rules need to be followed. - BorisG (talk) 16:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

If you file a new request for enforcement with details about the improprieties in the AE request, I for one will very happily examine the matter in full and take action where necessary. I am especially keen to hear about the whole 'tagging of articles after J. edited them' thing. AGK 12:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Cptnono

I can see how gaming could be interpreted from the actions of both editors. Not sure what (if anything) should be done about Gatoclass but this being the second time DYKs in the topic area have brought criticism of him here, Sandstein might have had the right idea if he was being a little wary. Removing him from DYK or topic baning him would not be beneficial to the project but restrictions on his work (not talk page use) on DYKs in the topic areas might be something to consider. Not sure if that is even warranted but there were some concerns raised that appear to be partially valid.

In response to Tznkai's suggestion, AGF could show that JDE was not gaming the system but AGF can only go so far. You are correct that the insertion of material after multiple objections was a problem even if it wasn't gaming. Since multiple reverts can be a bad thing, as NW brings up, it could be simplest to make it a 1rr/48hr while editing DYKs in the topic area. It will be easy enough to tell if he is gaming if he pops in a minute after two days have elapsed.Cptnono (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Follow-up: And if Gatoclass is going to be an uninolved admin sometimes but not another as seen on this page then there is a problem that touches on this whole gaming issue. Cptnono (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Epeefleche

First of all, this does not seem to be the correct forum for this complaint. Secondly, having parsed through this great deal of material, I don't see an actionable violation. I am also concerned with the misquoting of what J actually said, but would simply caution that editor to be more precise in the future.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Mbz1

I concur with Boris."that this request is inappropriate and should be dismissed. Gatoclass needs to be sanctioned for bringing inappropriate request here". I also believe that Gatoclass should be topic banned on reviewing I/A conflict related articles. He is gaming the system and holds DYK nominations for those article hostages. There are many even recent examples of such behavior.--Mbz1 (talk) 22:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Jalapenos do exist

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Question. What exactly is the harm complained of here? I've looked at the evidence, and I'm still confused. The diffs paint the picture that Jalapenos do exist (from now on "Jalapenos") has some sort of editorial "take" on the Israel/Palestine conflict, which while moderately annoying, is a content disagreement and thus generally dealt with outside of AE until it gets too bad. The part I'm not understanding is the involvement of DYK. Is the argument basically that Jalapenos waited for the article to be linked from the main page and then started editing with his/her editorial take?--Tznkai (talk) 22:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1, in case you didn't know me, and there is no reason you should, I take a very dim view of editors who come in swinging casting wild aspersions and insults at other editors. Stick to the facts, please.

Similarly, I don't need a blow by blow of past case history either Unomi, and if I'm interested I can review the logs myself.

Jalepenos, "broadly interpreted", which the Area of Conflict provision is, can include articles which discuss at length the Arab-Israeli conflict. The most useful construction I've discovered is to focus on edits that focus on the Arab-Israeli conflict. In this case the edits complained about focused on your edits - additions and removals that have to do with the Arab Israeli conflict.

Still reviewing evidence, but still waiting to see why this is within AE's jurisdiction. I'll be back to review in 13 hours, and I'd take it as a personal favor if you could keep any comments concise. (Other administrators can of course, as always, may have something to say as well).--Tznkai (talk) 05:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Upon careful review, the sections from Unomi and Mbz1 are both irrelevant to the topic at hand, and they should be removed. (You are, as always, free to open up a new complaint with all the risks that entails) Alternatively, if their authors insist on making me read through their bickering as I continue my due diligence, I will evaluate whether either of them should be prevented from treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground.--Tznkai (talk) 05:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

wordy statement on the role of AE and administrators
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Even if I operate under the assumption that Jalapenos did cause significant problematic edits after the DYK hook was approved, the case being laid out here is essentially asking me to peer into Jalapenos' mind, discern a fairly nefarious intent to subvert the DYK process and the goodwill of other editors, in the service of some sort of partisan point of view. I am of course, not a mind reader. Thats added on top of the use of an Arbitration remedy to protect DYK, outside of normal administrative processes. On the other hand, the purpose of these remedies is to prevent or ameliorate the effects of "deep-seated and long-standing real world conflicts between the peoples of Palestine and Israel" from being "transferred to Misplaced Pages." Neutrality is a core goal of Misplaced Pages, but it is not a rule in the sense of "rules for other people," but the constant exhortation for us editors to do our best, whenever we can,to achieve that goal. Administrators are charged with protecting neutrality by protecting the process by which neutrality is achieved: the slow painful grind towards consensus and cooperation. We do not, and cannot in good faith decide what neutral content is, and enforce it by fiat. Such is not only an invitation to the abuse of power, but the antithesis of a ground collaborative project. Thus, we restrict ourselves to the conduct of individual editors, controlling abuses when we can, while simultaneously (and perhaps paradoxically) trying to avoid turning our own administrative tools into weapons by proxy in interpersonal disputes.

wordy statement on the role of AE and administrators

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Even if I operate under the assumption that Jalapenos did cause significant problematic edits after the DYK hook was approved, the case being laid out here is essentially asking me to peer into Jalapenos' mind, discern a fairly nefarious intent to subvert the DYK process and the goodwill of other editors, in the service of some sort of partisan point of view. I am of course, not a mind reader.

Thats added on top of the use of an Arbitration remedy to protect DYK, outside of normal administrative processes. On the other hand, the purpose of these remedies is to prevent or ameliorate the effects of "deep-seated and long-standing real world conflicts between the peoples of Palestine and Israel" from being "transferred to Misplaced Pages."

Neutrality is a core goal of Misplaced Pages, but it is not a rule in the sense of "rules for other people," but the constant exhortation for us editors to do our best, whenever we can,to achieve that goal. Administrators are charged with protecting neutrality by protecting the process by which neutrality is achieved: the slow painful grind towards consensus and cooperation. We do not, and cannot in good faith decide what neutral content is, and enforce it by fiat. Such is not only an invitation to the abuse of power, but the antithesis of a ground collaborative project. Thus, we restrict ourselves to the conduct of individual editors, controlling abuses when we can, while simultaneously (and perhaps paradoxically) trying to avoid turning our own administrative tools into weapons by proxy in interpersonal disputes.

With those concerns in mind, my review of the evidence suggests that User:Jalapenos do exist has a topical focus on the Arab-Israeli conflict, specifically the portrayal of Israel, and that this topical focus, combined with admiral energy for editing, threatens to transfer emotions and difficulties from the "deep-seated and long standing real world conflicts" surrounding the Arab-Israeli conflict (broadly understood) and destabilize the editing environment. I am not here speculating on intent or motive, but making an empirical judgment on effect. There not however, enough evidence to suggest a malicious attempt to subvert the process, and the application of the assumption of good faith and Hanlon's razor and simple responsible judgment demands I do not speculate that far.

At this very moment however, the Alan Dershowitz quote is the lead of the article, because Jalepenos do exist added it after the DYK hook was approved. Regardless to the timing relative to the DYK hook, in the DYK discussion four separate users directly brought up the quote's bias problem: Schwede66, Volunteer Marek, Nick-D, and Gatoclass. This suggests a critical failure on Jalapenos do exist's part to conform to the basic rule of a collaborative editing environment. Seek compromise instead of editing roughshod over opposition.

It is therefor my intention, as a discretionary sanction, to bar Jalapenos do exist from the repeat insertion or removal of any text concerning Israel, Palestine, or the Arab-Israeli conflict, on any article page, whether by simple reversion, or in essence, disputed by any 3 users in an on wiki forum, with the usual caveats for clear vandalism and BLP violations. Jalapenos do exist is not only allowed, but encouraged to seek compromise language on talk pages. Users abusing gaming this restriction will be blocked. Jalapenos is encouraged to seek review of this restriction every 14 days in this forum, to display successful compromise, and/or activity in other topic areas and/or other factors indicating the restriction is not needed. Any uninvolved administrator in good standing is encouraged to conduct this review.

I encourage any and all interested editors to briefly and concisely comment.--Tznkai (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Three editors have to oppose him before he stops? It is bad practice to continue editing if even one person opposes your edits; broader consensus should be sought at that point. I'm not a huge fan of this particular sanction, though I agree that one is probably necessary. I'm not really sure what type of sanction would be best though. NW (Talk) 19:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, thats a fair point, but considering the wording of the restriction precludes Jalapenos from reverting the material for the life time of the restriction, I'm very concerned about letting a smaller group game the system. If you have even the vaguest semblance of an idea I'd love to hear it.--Tznkai (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm just thinking aloud, but what about having your sanction that for normal articles and demanding that J. get an opinion on IPCOLL if he wants to make an addition to a main page article. NW (Talk) 22:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That sounds workable. Jalapenos would need to offer his proposed change for discussion at WP:IPCOLL or WT:DYK at least three hours before making it, if it is a change to a DYK which is either currently on the main page or less then three hours before it is due to appear. The spirit of this rule is that he would need to express any major concerns with the wording of a DYK during the normal discussion period and not spring them at the last minute. This restriction would not apply to reverting vandalism or to minor spelling/grammar fixes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Here are the article links for one of the discussed articles:

Civilian casualty ratio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Having dug into the evidence, I'm no longer convinced that this enforcement request shows a violation of WP:ARBPIA. Someone with more patience than I (perhaps Tznkai?) might be able to get to the bottom of this, but the Durban III business I no longer see as persuasive. The people at WP:Articles for deletion/Civilian casualty ratio did express a lot of ideas on how the article could be improved. This article was created by Jalapenos, but I wonder how it became his duty to fix all the perceived problems before it could become a DYK. The actual DYK hook was "... that according to a study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian casualty ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10 civilian deaths for every soldier death?" That hook sounds innocuous and does not have an obvious POV. Also the articles wasn't tagged for ARBPIA until later on in the process. It was created by Jalapenos on 23 November and it's been worked on by 22 different editors since that moment. In the history I notice the names of editors from both sides of the I/P conflict. Since Jalapenos created it, it is understandable he might want to take the article to DYK. He has made 41 edits to the article and Gatoclass has made 69. I did notice this removal by Jalapenos on 14 December of a sentence added by ~~Mbz1~~ Gatoclass: "Israel's conduct of the war, particularly its bombardment of Beirut, was heavily criticized, not only by the international community but in Israel itself, where large antiwar protests took place.". Jalapenos edit summary was "General povs regarding actions are outside the purview of this article." That seems logical to me, given the topic.

It is not obvious to me that the data presented here by Gatoclass show misbehavior by Jalapenos that needs to be sanctioned under ARBPIA. I might change my view if somebody can capture in a very small set of diffs exactly what the misbehavior was. If there was actually a violation, it should not take many hundreds of words to explain it. EdJohnston (talk) 05:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The diff you mention is a good example: here Jalapenos removes a description of criticism of Israel because "General povs regarding actions are outside the purview of this article." Twelve minutes later, he adds Dershowitz's claim to the lead. So in the space of 12 minutes, "general povs regarding actions" are suddenly not only appropriate for the article, but belong in the lead. This user's editorial rationales seem rather flexible, depending on whether the material in question reflects positively or negatively on Israel. That's as good an illustration of agenda-driven editing as any, compounded since, as Tznkai has identified, Jalapenos is a single-purpose account. Whether the ARBPIA sanctions can, or should, come into play here is a question I'll leave to my fellow admins. MastCell 06:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
(od) It would have been better if Jalapenos held off on the Dershowitz quote. Still, his quote is at least germane to the topic of the article, since it talks about the civilian casualty ratio, while the general disapproval in the press of Israel's war in Lebanon is not a statement about the casualty ratio. Whether it makes sense to include the Dershowitz claim could be discussed on the article talk page, where so far it is not mentioned. The article's talk page seems fairly cooperative.

Regarding what to do next, I hope that Tznkai will make a further proposal. I note that Unomi made this suggestion on my talk page: "Ok, how would you feel about an instruction that all I/P related articles submitted to DYK, that a given editor works on, must be listed by them at WP:IPCOLL at earliest opportunity?" This is a reform that would best be left for the community to make. Somebody who feels that DYK is being abused due to controversial I/P articles could open an RfC and recommend a new policy or guideline. EdJohnston (talk) 16:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think any sanctioned targeted at protecting DYK is outside of our mandate at AE. As EdJohnston suggested above, Jalapenos's conduct may actually be outside the strictures of ARBPIA as well.

Where I am right now is that I'm certain that Jalapenos needs to have some sort of editing restriction within the Arab-Israelli topic area because of a topical focus concern, combined with demonstrated lack of concern for certain editing norms (not reverting to your preferred version). I'm not certain that we've reached the point of an outright topic ban. The issue with DYKs I think isn't the real issue - it is just the case that brought enough eyes on the problem that we now have noticed. At this point I'm leaning towards some sort of reversion restriction, on a time limited sanction, barring someone coming up with a better idea.--Tznkai (talk) 03:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

As it happens, I'm leaning towards the view that topic banning a number of editors on both sides including Jalapenos is necessary. However, whether that's justifiable, at this stage, within the WP:ARBPIA framework is debatable. Also, I'm uncomfortable with imposing a restriction on the DYK process - I'd prefer that a discussion was held amongst Wikipedians who volunteer in that area, and they decide for themselves whether a change in the rules is appropriate. In this context, I agree with Tznkai that some sort of revert restriction could be applied. Perhaps 1RR/week? PhilKnight (talk) 09:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I see lots of discussion relating to this complaint, and that confuses me: this affair is really not very complicated.
Anyway: Jalapenos (hence 'J.') observes above that this complaint centres around "one edit to World Conference against Racism 2001 and nine edits to Civilian casualty ratio"; it has not been demonstrated that there is a serious pattern of disruptive editing by J. in this topic area. Compare that with the discretionary sanctions remedy we are applying, which is prefaced with a statement that it is designed to be used against (and thus only against) editors who "repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." Would it be justifiable to action this request with anything more stern than a caution?
I do agree that the behaviour of J. in relation to the DYK incident the complainant cites was grossly inappropriate, and I should think that, were my attention drawn to it at that time, I would have blocked him immediately for disruptive editing—especially in light of the high-profile nature of DYKs selected for display on the Main Page. But the incident remains, so far as it has been demonstrated, a singular one; and so in my mind there is no case for topic-banning Jalapenos. AGK 18:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Jalapenos: In response to your point about 'unclean hands', please see my remark at #Statement by BorisG . AGK 12:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Tznkai that these articles do indeed come under the ARBPIA "broadly interpreted" criteria given the material under dispute, and noting JPE's singular focus on this topic area. I also agree with AGK that the DYK reverting incident is a clear example of disruptive editing. In this I take seriously the view of the other DYK regulars including EdChem, Smartse, Nick-D that gaming that went on; plain and simple it was incredibly inappropriate to stand by for days, without protesting or commenting on Gatoclass' edits, only to revert them once the article hit the main page. The POV problems that Gatoclass attempted to solve, without much if any help from JPE, had been noted by multiple other editors at the AFD and also at DYK (edit summary ), contrary to JPE's assertions above.
The question is what to do about it. A revert restriction has been proposed. I've taken a look through the editor's last 500 article edits (back to September) and have found only two other obvious edit sequences involving reverting . Reverting isn't the core of the problem.
I've always been struck that WP's WP:NPOV policy requires all editors to edit from a NPOV. "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is non-negotiable and all editors and articles must follow it." Editors need to have a neutral encyclopedia as the goal, seeking out RSs that reflect all perspectives on an issue, not just their own. It has long been unclear to me why WP tolerates for so long editors who manifestly fail this central point of policy, apparently seeking to (mis)use WP as a platform to promote their views. Based on a review of JPE's edits, I think it is clear that his/her editing falls into this category - including writing articles that independent editors see as POV - but then so do many others in this area of conflict and in others. On the one hand, I obviously support Phil Knight's view that a number of topic bans may be necessary, but the highly disruptive actions at DYK notwithstanding, I am not sure that JPE is the person to start with. So I suggest a strong warning and reminder to JPE and all those involved in the area that neutral editing is required; if you can't do it, you'll need to find another website to edit, one way or another.
As far as DYK, I encourage those involved to try and sort out some procedures there. I agree with AGK that a swift block for disruption would have been appropriate; another time WP:ANI might be the right place to deal with the issue. Or perhaps the admins associated with DYK, who might understand the dynamics a bit more easily, would be willing to intervene. --Slp1 (talk) 22:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Responding to Jalapenos' questions:

1. While they did object to it specifically as a hook, they also described the statement as "agenda driven" "potentially not meeting NPOV" and "obviously wrong." Furthermore there was the comment that "Given the serious concerns raised about this article in its AfD, I don't think that it's at all suited to appearing as a link from Misplaced Pages's main page." An editor working at Misplaced Pages must pay attention to concerns like this.

2. The principle of unclean hands comes from the maxims of equity, a fine and under appreciated tradition in common law jurisdictions. We are not such a jurisdiction. Separately, my review of the incident did not suggest that Gatoclass has crossed boundaries that would invalidate this complaint or justify to a separate sanction on Gatoclass. And, in so far as borrowing from the Maxims of Equity is a good idea, the balance of the equities weighs against you in this case.

At this point, we need to close this issue and quickly. Aside from the interests we all share in having quick and resolution, I don't know about the rest of you, but I spend the waning days of the year with family and friends when I can.

Because of the split in administrator opinion on this issue I'm going to go with the following:

A sanction that Jalapenos falls under 1RR for all edits within article space, so long as the content of the edit has to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed. This would essentially extend the global I/P article 1RR to I/P content in general, which is probably how the sanction should have been devised in the first place. This sanction would run three months.

In the alternative, Jalapenos can agree to not edit any I/P content at all, broadly construed, linked from the main page for 9 months, in which case this enforcement request would be formally closed without action.

Unless there is a strenuous objection, I intend to invoke the traditional privilege of AE admins to enact measures without waiting for consensus--Tznkai (talk) 04:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with AGK and Slp1. Tznkai's restriction is mild and I could live with that as well. He is asking for a 1RR on all I/P *content* that would apply to Jalapenos. This is stronger than the per-article 1RR that currently applies to all editors. I suggest that closing a case with a restriction based on large walls of text runs the risk of an appeal, at which point we will be back here with more walls. Another option is just a warning to Jalapenos, using the reasoning of Slp1 and AGK. Keep in mind as an alternative that we could actually widen the current I/P restriction to be this new version, and it would apply to *all editors*. (That is, a 1RR on I/P content in articles generally, and not just a per-article 1RR). EdJohnston (talk) 07:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Goodness yes, I suspect we would be back here soon with more screeds of text to wade through. You know that there is a lot to read through when the headers above each statement and reply begin to become so small that a magnifying glass is needed to read them… AGK 12:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt

Both users warned by Lar (talk · contribs) per WP:ARBSCI#Discretionary topic ban. Per WP:ARBSCI#Uninvolved administrators, "ny disputes about whether an administrator is involved or not are to be referred to the Arbitration Committee". This is generating a lot of heat and virtually no light at all. Claims of post-warning misconduct should be brought in a separate thread. T. Canens (talk) 00:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Cirt

User requesting enforcement: Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Editors instructed

8) Any current or future editor who, after this decision is announced, makes substantial edits to any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page is directed: ...(C) To edit in accordance with all Misplaced Pages policies and to refrain from any form of advocacy concerning any external controversy, dispute, allegation, or proceeding;

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

(For the sake of brevity, I will not reproduce the evidence already presented in this ANI discussion or the discussions related to this in earlier AE requests. I have linked the most relevant sections under "Background" and assume that anyone commenting here is familiar with that evidence and not simply making judgements based on the limited evidence presented here.)

Background:

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Scientology-related article fall-out (identifies BLP violations left in articles and/or created in articles by Cirt's removal of a source)
Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#More fallout: Speedyclick.com & Doug Dohring (identifies BLP violations left in articles and/or created in articles by Cirt's removal of a source)
Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Case_study_number_one:_Michael_Doven (identifies BLP and NPOV violations in article created by Cirt)
Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Case study number two: Jamie Sorrentini (shows correspondence in Cirt's edits to blog postings of well-known critic of the Church of Scientology)
Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Cirt's anti-Scientology articles on Wikinews (sampling of Cirt's anti-Scientology articles on Wikinews)
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Statement_by_Scott_MacDonald_re_BLP_issues (concerns raised about Cirt's neutrality)

A relatively concise and relatively recent example:

In May 2010, Cirt created the BLP of Michael Doven. Doven is a movie producer and the former assistant to actor Tom Cruise who is well-known as a Scientologist. From the very first edit, the article was riddled with BLP and POV issues. Among the sources used in this BLP:

"New OT VI Hubbard Solo Nots Auditing Course" - CoS publication
"Cruise control - Exclusive - Scientology insider reveals the bizarre truth about superstar's cult-like 'religion'; Interview". News of the World - Yes, Cirt used News of the World as a source in a BLP
Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography - An "unauthorized biography" by author Andrew Morton who is not generally considered to be a reliable source. Note that the book was not published in some countries, allegedly because of the "strict libel laws" in effect. It should be no surprise that Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography was created by Cirt.
"Tom Cruise, o fanático" - Portuguese-language article which seems on par with News of the World, used to source Doven's connection to the leader of the CoS.
"TomKat Wedding, Part 2 On Its Way". FOX News - Fox News' "Celebrity Gossip"

In the infobox, Doven's "organisation" is listed as "Scientology". There is a rather large "Scientology" footer, and the article includes the "Scientology portal" tag. A few edits later, Cirt adds Category: American Scientologists. This is an apparent violation of WP:BLPCAT.

This article had so many gratuitous references to Scientology and Scientologists that it was almost comical. I put this article forward as an example on ANI, but no changes were made as a result. I raised it on WP:BLPN (a suggestion made on ANI). User:Bbb23 reorganized the article into two sections, one covering Doven's career and the other covering his involvement in Scientology. Cirt simply reverted. As Bbb23 said on BLPN, "no one has commented on the changes I made. Cirt, however, reverted them, so I guess that means he didn't like them". User:Maunus, Cirt, and Bbb23 made some changes but left it largely as it had begun, with all of the sourcing and most of the POV problems intact. Maunus, an admin, commented at ANI that "I agree that this article was problematic. It did have the appearance of a Coatrack. I think that it has improved drastically now, with Cirt's colaboration".

In a discussion on Jehochman's talk page, Cirt raised the article as an example of their good-faith efforts, saying "As one case study example: Delicious carbuncle raised concerns both at ANI and at BLPN about the page Michael Doven. I worked to improve the page collaboratively, and my efforts resulted in successfully addressing the concerns raised to the satisfaction of Maunus ...". When I questioned the lede included a reference to the sister of Beck (himself a Scientologist), Cirt removed the literal phrase, leaving the sister's name (unlinked, since she does not have an article here). This article is nothing but a coatrack to identify Doven as a Scientologist and to imply that his career is inextricably linked to Scientology.

A really short and pointed example:

Amy Scobee is a former member of the CoS and now a critic of that group who has published a book about her experiences with them. Cirt interviewed her for Wikinews ("Author Amy Scobee recounts abuse as Scientology executive"). In this edit Cirt identifies the genre of Scobee's writing as "destructive cults" and the subject as "Scientology".

An example of mind-boggling pettiness:

Knight and Day is a movie starring Tom Cruise. Even before its release, Cirt was already adding negative press (, , , , , ). Following the release, Cirt makes dozens of edits, adding negative reviews (, , , , , , , , , , , etc). All of the additions have cherry-picked quotes such as Lexi Feinberg of Big Picture Big Sound gave the film a rating of one and a half stars, and characterized it as an "asinine, action-adventure dud", with a "stupid plot".

Having not seen the movie I can only speculate about its quality, but both Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic suggest that there are about equal numbers of positive and negative reviews. I can see no reason for Misplaced Pages to have such a long and detailed negative article about what is a very unimportant movie. The history of the article is useful for examining Cirt's ownership tendencies.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): topic ban on editing Scientology-related BLPs, ban on use of admin tools on Scientology-related articles (widely construed), 1RR restriction on all Scientology-related articles (widely construed)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Although I may currently be under sanctions regarding Scientology-related articles, there is an appeal pending, and per Jehochman's comments I believe I am free to file this request for arbitration. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Addendum: Some of the same information in diff:violation format

: violation of WP:BLP (use of obviously unreliable sources in a BLP) hence also a violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned)
: violation of WP:BLP (specifically WP:BLPCAT) hence also a violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned)
: violation of WP:NPOV hence violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned)
: violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) due to advocacy & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned)
: WP:BLP and WP:NPOV violation hence violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned)
: violation of WP:NPOV hence violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned)
: violation of WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) & WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned) (3 December 2010 reversion of good edit as vandalism)

Addendum 2: Violations made after formal warning given

Cirt copied a section of List of Scientologists to List of Scientology officials (leaving the material duplicated in the original article). According to the policy WP:VERIFIABILITY, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Despite all of the discussion here, Cirt made no effort to ensure that the article they created used only reliable sources and was not in violation of WP:BLPCAT, which states that inclusion in lists or application of categories "regarding religious beliefs ... should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief...". Additionally, there is the use of clearly unrelaible sources (including the "unauthorized biography" already discussed in this request). Gratuitous references to Joseph Feshbach in the section on his daughter seem to violate WP:BLP. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Cirt

Statement by Cirt

I would have very much liked to have discussed the substance of the individual and specific complaints about various articles raised by Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs), and I would have appreciated being given an opportunity first to work to address these issues. Unfortunately, Delicious carbuncle refused to even attempt to address any of these issues at their respective article talk pages. This problem was pointed out in replies to Delicious carbuncle at BLPN, by multiple editors including Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs) diff and Bbb23 (talk · contribs) diff. I reached out to Delicious carbuncle multiple times, requesting that he be more specific in his complaints about certain articles, but unfortunately he refused to discuss at article talk pages, see diff and diff. Though I really would like to help cleanup the pages in question, it becomes very difficult to do so when the only time Delicious carbuncle brings issues up is when escalating them to ANI, BLPN, or AE - and repeatedly refuses to engage discussion, content talk page engagement, or prior dispute resolution of any sort - on article talk pages. -- Cirt (talk) 19:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Update - Good faith cleanup edits

I really would have liked to have been able to discuss these issues with Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) on the respective article talk pages. However, as he has raised them here, I have tried to address them:

Amy Scobee - I removed "Scientology" from the infobox. I added "Non-fiction" as genre, and "Religion" as subject. diff
Knight and Day - I removed a significant amount of sourced material critical of the film, from the Reception sect. diff
Michael Doven - I removed info from the article cited to sources questioned by Delicious carbuncle. I removed the Scientology portal from the See also sect. I removed the Scientology navigation template from the bottom of the article. I removed Scientology from the infobox. I removed info from the lede that was mentioned above by Delicious carbuncle. diff
Category:American Scientologists at page, Michael Doven - I am currently supporting editor Maunus (talk · contribs) at a discussion at the article's talk page, at Talk:Michael Doven. Multiple editors wish to add this category back. Delicious carbuncle has neglected to support its removal at the article's talk page. I have. diff

I will strive in the future to be more receptive to feedback and open to pursuing forms of dispute resolution such as Third Opinion processes (I recently received a barnstar for work in this area diff) and Request for Comment - however at no point did Delicious carbuncle even attempt to pursue resolution of any of these issues through talk page discussion or content dispute resolution. -- Cirt (talk) 20:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Unomi

I was motivated to report Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) to AE, due to WP:BLP violation at page Jamie Sorrentini and then reverting against consensus from multiple editors at WP:RSN diff, diff, diff (later found to also be WP:POINT violation deliberately as an attempt to provoke me diff), and WP:FORUMSHOP issues on the same topic, and disruption on the same topic at ANI diff diff. -- Cirt (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Use of admin tools on Scientology-related articles

To my knowledge, there does not appear to be any evidence about this particular issue presented by Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs). The only instance in which I was mentioned by the Arbitration Committee in the Scientology case ruling was to state: "From careful examination of the submitted evidence, the committee concludes that, since his request for adminship in September 2008, Cirt does not appear to have deliberately misused administrative tools." I appreciate that ruling from ArbCom. Since that case, I have strived to avoid using admin tools in relation to this topic. I will continue to avoid acting as an admin in this arena. -- Cirt (talk) 21:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Delicious carbuncle

This comment is incorrect, this is not a violation. I would appreciate if we could move on from this. If concerns are brought to the talk page, I will swiftly address them promptly. -- Cirt (talk) 00:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I have promptly responded at the talk page diff. -- Cirt (talk) 00:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Delicious carbuncle

I had intended to let this run its course with contributing further, but I feel the need to comment on Jehochman's attempt to unilaterally deny this arbitration request. Based on comments they made in the appeal request of my sanctions, I asked Jehochman if I would be allowed to file an arbitration request about Cirt's actions. Their answer was:

I believe you have every right to file an AE request as a matter of reformatting evidence already presented so that the controversy can be ended. Given what I have seen, the likely endpoint is for both you and Cirt to receive warnings. The sanction you received is void as far as I am concerned because it did not comply with the arbitration remedy's specific requirements. You can copy and paste evidence regarding Cirt that was already presented. There is a value in you gathering, organizing and summarizing the evidence. We need to keep these threads concise and filter out as much of the bickering as we can. A fresh start of the discussion would probably do that. Feel free to link to this comment if anybody suggests you are doing something wrong. Thank you for your understanding.

In an attempt to keep this as concise and clear as possible, I provided links to the evidence already presented at ANI, and focused on three examples which I felt were representative of the issues. This could have been an extremely lengthy filing, but I did not want to overwhelm anyone.

I find it perplexing that Jehochman would encourage me to file an arbitration request and then attempt to summarily quash it. I also question his impartiality, given the circumstances. As for his reasoning, he is incorrect. Under remedy 8 of WP:ARBSCI (which may be remedy 7 mislabelled), there is no requirement to warn editors: "Any uninvolved administrator may on his or her discretion apply the discretionary sanctions specified in Remedy 4 to any editor failing to comply with the spirit or letter of these instructions". Additionally, it says "In case of any doubt concerning application or interpretation of these restrictions, the Arbitration Committee may be consulted for guidance". I believe it is time to involve ArbCom in this matter, since we all know that is where this is heading anyway. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I cannot judge your request without seeing it first. You have every right to file the request, and it is still possible that some other administrator will come along and issue a warning to Cirt. I personally don't see the case, but somebody else might. AE Sanctions are impossible at this time given the formula ArbCom specified, perhaps unwisely. Jehochman 00:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

You seemed to know that it would be at least the evidence that I had already presented at ANI, but perhaps I misunderstood. Did you and Cirt discuss this arbitration request prior to your attempt to close it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe you already asked me, and I already answered -- No, not at all. Jehochman 02:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I asked, but you did not answer. So, just to be clear, you and Cirt have not communicated offwiki about this request for arbitration? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Question for Cirt: Cirt, I asked Jehochman this question but have received no reply as yet, so I will ask you - did you and Jehochman discuss this arbitration request prior to his attempt to close it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Simple diff:violation format: As requested in a comment by Jehochman, I have created an addendum with some of the evidence as simply diffs and identification of the specific violations. It strikes me that this is a terrible way to lay out a case about what is a larger pattern of actions, but obviously from comments like those of Shell Kinney or Jusdafax, people seem to be glossing over the fact that there are obvious BLP violations included in that evidence, among other things. I didn't want to waste too much time on this so I only included a representative sample. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:15, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

You can lead DocJames to water, but you can't make him drink: DocJames, perhaps you missed the sentence where I said "The history of is useful for examining Cirt's ownership tendencies"? I assumed anyone who was interested enough to comment would actually take the time to look at the things I have singled out, rather than talking out of their ass. If you had done so, you would have quickly come across the edit I have added to the diffs section. An IP editor changed the runtime of the movie from 110 minutes to 109 minutes (the time given by IMDB, Box Office Mojo, and Metacritic). Cirt reverted that edit as vandalism and gave the IP a "level 3" warning. Is that appropriate? It wasn't vandalism, it was a valid correction.

If you looked a little further into the history, you would have seen this edit by an IP cutting down the ridiculously long "critical reception" section with the edit summary ("way long"). It was reverted by another user who apparently thought better of it and restored the edit. Then Cirt reverted and warned the user for "vandalism" (which it clearly wasn't). I encourage you to actually look at the history of that article, although it is clear you have already made up your mind and will not be swayed by either evidence or sound arguments. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:46, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Have you looked at this IPs other edits? And did you notice the warning that it had received shortly before? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

You appear to be suggesting that Cirt's actions would be acceptable if the IP had been engaging in vandalism on other articles. That is an astonishing attitude for an admin to take, but I am unsurprised to hear you take it. Incidentally, the IP editor was changing the runtime to agree with Box Office Mojo, Rotten Tomatoes, and AllMovie, so it clearly was not vandalism in that case, either. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Cirt

I wish to add the following diffs to those provided by Carbuncle above for the community's consideration.

This edit strikes me as a clear-cut BLP violation -- we don't insert self-published YouTube videos making very serious allegations against living persons into articles. Note: This diff is >1 year old. Jehochman 23:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Kenneth Dickson was a biography of a minor politician, written by Cirt, which was widely perceived as a puff-piece (see Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Kenneth_Dickson_(2nd_nomination); the final comment was "Delete This reads like an advertisement for someone with an eye on political office", and it was deleted by John Vandenberg). It was written in the run-up to a River County election in which Dickson was a candidate, and appears to have promoted an outside agenda: Jeff Stone, the favourite in the election, had attracted the displeasure of anti-Scientology activists. What was striking about the article, which was only discovered and deleted after the election was over, was that while it used almost every flattering source available on Dickson, it failed to mention a controversy surrounding Dickson over his anti-gay views: "Dickson protects hate speech", "Student sues over ban of anti-gay T-shirt". Cirt similarly reworked the biography of Joel Anderson, the other candidate opposing Jeff Stone, prior to that election. Anderson won, and commentators were intrigued with how well Dickson had done. (Incidentally, Jeff Stone does not have a Misplaced Pages article.)

These repeated insertions (and re-insertions after they were deleted) of links to self-published websites in List of Scientologists strike me as violations of WP:BLP:
- truthaboutscientology.org (this is the site Cirt argued only a few weeks later was unreliable in the dispute with Delicious Carbuncle),
- (the personal website of a WP user who is topic-banned from Scientology),
- .

This BLP edit was marked as a vandalism-revert. It restored unsourced material with a Citation needed tag, as well as a slew of private Scientology websites and the Scientology template. The changes this user made mirror the changes now made by Scott MacDonald and FT2. Cirt reported the user as a BLP vandal and they were blocked as a result.

Here a novice user tried to remove Jada Pinkett-Smith, Will Smith's wife, from List of Scientologists. She was listed as a member, even though there are plentiful and easily sourceable denials by her . Cirt reverted, marking the edit as vandalism and posting vandalism warnings to User_talk:Passomouse. Passomouse advised Cirt they had contacted Pinkett-Smith's PR office, who had confirmed she is not a Scientologist. Cirt's response was to accuse Passomouse of a violation of NOR. Pinkett-Smith was removed from the list some time later on, along with other non-Scientologists such as Gloria Gaynor and Chaka Khan, after an RfC, BLPN threads, input from Jimbo, and lots of halfway-house solutions and wrangling on the list's talk page.

User:DGG expressed neutrality concerns over another article Cirt had written, at Talk:Scientology_(James_R._Lewis_book)/Archive_1.

I believe there is an ongoing and serious problem here, comprising both BLP violations and advocacy. Under Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Single_purpose_accounts_with_agendas,

“

Any editor who, in the judgment of an uninvolved administrator, is (i) focused primarily on Scientology or Scientologists and (ii) clearly engaged in promoting an identifiable agenda may be topic-banned for up to one year.

”

The Dickson case and other evidence posted by DC establishes that there is such an agenda. It involves writing puff-pieces on perceived Scientology opponents – see e.g.

comments by User:DGG here,
the discussion of Jamie Sorrentini, a recent drop-out from Scientology, here,
Jimbo's comments at the AfD for Daryl Wine Bar and Restaurant,

and it involves writing consistently unflattering portrayals of Scientologists, or scholars asserting that Scientology has religious character, per

DC's example of Knight and Day,
diffs in Unomi's earlier post (Bryan R. Wilson)
the discussion initiated by DGG at Talk:Scientology_(James_R._Lewis_book)/Archive_1.

What remains is to establish that Cirt is "focused primarily on Scientology or Scientologists". This is arguably so: per their top 100, Cirt is mostly focused on Scientology and Werner Erhard/est (a Scientology offshoot), both here and in other Wikimedia projects (see e.g. ). Indeed, perusing Cirt's contributions history in sister projects shows a remarkable body of work that is acknowledged in the anti-Scientology community. --JN466 20:22, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

While the above-quoted ARBSCI remedy authorises a full topic ban, without warning, I am unsure if this is in the best interest of the project. There are several reasons for this. For one, it is undeniable that Cirt has authored some top-quality content in this area. While still often combative, Cirt has shown signs of being more responsive to feedback, and of having acquired an ability to write more neutrally than in former times. In my perception at least, these were the result of a good-faith effort that can't have come easy to someone with such strong views. When Cirt first arrived here, first as User:Smeelgova, then User:Smee, then User:Curt Wilhelm VonSavage, they quickly acquired block logs and within weeks were involved in an est-related arbitration case. The development since then has in many ways been a positive one. The sanctions proposed by DC above, i.e. a topic ban on editing Scientology-related BLPs, ban on use of admin tools on Scientology-related articles (widely construed), and a 1RR restriction on all Scientology-related articles (widely construed), may serve the project better. However, it would be nice to see an honest acknowledgement of the problem from Cirt. --JN466 21:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Jose Peralta is another flattering bio of a politician whose opponent anti-Scientologists did not like. --JN466 23:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

est is not Scientology. Nor is the Unification Church or Rajneesh. Cirt clearly works on a variety of topics within the broad field of new religious movements. So do you. Scientology appears often in your top 100 edits as well. Unfortunately, the Arbcom did not define "focused primarily". Will Beback talk 22:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- 16% in my case; well over 50% in Cirt's, the top 4 being 1. Project Chanology, 2. List of Scientologists, 3. Battlefield Earth (film), and 4. A Very Merry Unauthorized Children's Scientology Pageant. --JN466 23:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- Here Cirt and Jehochman discuss the possibility of having ARBSCI sanctions apply to Werner Erhard/Landmark Education articles, given that "Landmark Education is considered by multiple scholars to be an outgrowth of that other group". In Cirt's mind, they are clearly related, to the extent that Cirt feels ARBSCI sanctions could legitimately be applied to these articles. Even without the 5 or 6 Erhard articles, 50% of Cirt's top 100 articles are about Scientology, Scientologists, Scientology spoofs, or Scientology opponents. That is "focused primarily", and with a clear agenda. --JN466 23:34, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
  - Abraham Lincoln told the riddle. "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a calf have?" Answer: "Four, because even if you call a tail a leg that doesn't make it one." (Excuse my poor paraphrasing). est is not Scientology, even if Cirt has associated them in some contexts. Will Beback talk 23:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
    - You tell riddles, while ignoring a consistent pattern of BLP violations -- despite your assertion on Scott's talk page that there are few editors who "get" BLP better than you. It would be nice if you could comment instead on the evidence that has been presented. Are you okay with puff pieces for one side, and BLP violations for the other? --JN466 00:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
      - I was only addressing the narrow issue of whether Cirt "primarily" edits the Scientology topic. I think Lincoln's wisdom was on-topic, but you can ignore it and change the subject if you like. I don't have time or interest to review this complaint, and since you claim I'm involved (despite not having made any significant edits to the topic in years) my commentary wouldn't matter much anyway. Will Beback talk 00:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

user:Cirt has made a total of 37086 article edits. Looking at just the top ten articles in his edit history, it appears he has made 2514 edits to Scientology-related articles. That represent 6% of his editing. User:Jayen466 has made a total of 14045 article edits. Looking at his top ten, 1870 of them have been to Scientology-related articles. That is about 13% of the total article edits, or twice as much as Cirt's percentage. Using those metrics, Jayen is more of a primary purpose editor than Cirt. Just saying. Will Beback talk 12:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by u n☯mi

Cirt writes "Though I really would like to help cleanup the pages in question, it becomes very difficult to do so when the only time Delicious carbuncle brings issues up is when escalating them to ANI, BLPN, or AE" This is a somewhat curious framing as it was Cirt who escalated:

07:52, 8 December 2010 Cirt opens ANI thread. archive
04:22, 13 December 2010 Cirt opens AE request. archive

I would like to ask Cirt what moved him to open the AE request. u n☯mi 21:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Shell Kinney

It's always disappointing to see reports that feel the need to include phrases like "mind-boggling pettiness" and only have ANI reports to show for attempting to resolve the dispute. Since Cirt seems to have responded to feedback in a variety of those cases, it's confusing that a ban is being asked for rather than simply addressing any concerns directly first. Shell 21:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You may not have the full picture of what's transpired over the years. ++Lar: t/c 01:59, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Yep, quite possibly. If an overview of that was here somewhere, I've missed it. Shell 03:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Momento

Could Jehochman explain what format the "prior warning as required by WP:ARBSCI" takes.Momento (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The exact requirements are at Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Discretionary topic ban.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Single_purpose_accounts_with_agendas does not actually include this requirement. The question is whether "single-purpose" applies. It is perhaps more like "main focus" in this case. --JN466 22:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The usual disputants arguing for sanctions as an extension of their editorial disagreements is not the least bit helpful. Jehochman 23:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman, I truly appreciated your olive branch the other day. But belittling me as a "usual disputant" is not helpful either, in the face of documented evidence that you refuse to acknowledge or address – BLP violations, and consistent bias. You are a "usual litigator" in these disputes, and one selected by Cirt. --JN466 23:56, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The olive branch was sincere. I was very surprised you turned up on this thread to advocate for sanctions. It seems difficult to collaborate, on the one hand, and request sanctions on the other, especially when the sanctions are not authorized by ArbCom in the absence of a prior warning. Rest assured that if Cirt turns up on any thread seeking to sanction you in the future, I'll be very unimpressed. Jehochman 00:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, I had hoped to stay away from this thread. It was your attempt to close the thread as quickly as you tried to, citing "a lack of concise evidence and diffs", that made me feel there was something really wrong about this. I had meant to do something else today. And on re-reading WP:ARBSCI I noticed Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Single_purpose_accounts_with_agendas, which this could be thought to fall under, and which does not in fact require a prior warning. I am not out to "get" Cirt out of personal spite. It is just that Cirt is an immensely active and combative editor who personally controls practically the entire topic area, across multiple Wikimedia projects. That would be fine if Cirt were supremely neutral as well as knowledgeable, but they're not. I am fine with a warning here, rather than a sanction, but something has to be done. --JN466 02:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't have any comment to make about Cirt's edits on Scientology but in one case when I asked him why he closed an AfD he refused to supply a reason and became aggressive. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC).

Coincidently my most recent experience with Cirt was his reverting of my well sourced edit on Prem Rawat (another non-Christian BLP to be controlled) with the edit summary "contentious edits and disruptive behavior by User:Momento, should be discussed fully on the talk page." . Soon after without any warning on my talk page and without making another edit I was topic banned for a year at Will Beback's request. Clearly there is one rule for admins and one for the rest of us.Momento (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Resident Anthropologist (talk)

I am trying to avoid conflict as much as possible here and trying to stay out of this. I said much earlier a WP:RFC/U could do a lot of good here. I am not sure Arbitration Enforcment is the proper venue.The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: There have been no attempts by Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) to have tried to resolve the dispute with me through talk page discussion - whether that be at my user talk page, through content-based RFCs, Third Opinion-requests, or any form of dispute resolution whatsoever. -- Cirt (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt, I agree Delicious carbuncle has not gone about this in an appropriate manner. It does seem as if he instigated this conflict as a WP:POINT with the original edit Jamie Sorrentini. What I see here is Jayen466 and Delicious carbuncle are focusing on long term pattern of behavior which is too broad to appropriately cover in this WP:AE request IMO. I think a RFC/U is the most appropriate venue to discuss long term behavior patterns.

Comments by Jusdafax

I discovered this matter because I have Cirt's talkpage watchlisted. I have not been contacted on or offwiki regarding it, and indeed have not communicated with Cirt at all for many months, though we have found areas of agreement in the past. Cirt's many contributions are extensive to an amazing degree, and I am hardly alone in respecting his accomplishments. As Will Beback notes above, Cirt edits across a wide range of articles. I feel strongly that Delicious carbuncle is clearly the dubious party here, and agree that the lack of talk page discussion by Delicious carbuncle is highly noteworthy. Because Cirt is a high-profile editor on one of the touchiest subjects in Misplaced Pages, he comes under various forms of attack for doing what I and many see as a very good job. He merits our deepest thanks, and I ask in all fairness that this matter be dropped as what it is... patent nonsense. Jusdafax 16:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Formal warning(s) given

I have given formal warnings to Cirt and Delicious Carbuncle . It is my sincere belief that they comply exactly with the requirements given at Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Discretionary_topic_ban but if someone wants to quibble, I'm certainly amenable to revising them to meet whatever jot and tittle requirements are advanced. ++Lar: t/c 02:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Cirt

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Request for sanctions denied. (1) There is no evidence presented of a prior warning to Cirt, as required by WP:ARBSCI. (2) There is no evidence presented of general purpose warnings to Cirt from uninvolved editors. (3) There is a lack of concise evidence documented with diffs showing recent bad edits by Cirt. Some of the edits referenced are contested, and some of them might even be incorrect, but I do not see glaring WP:BLP violations as alleged. We apparently have here a run-of-the-mill content dispute, or series of content disputes, dressed up as an enforcement request. Please, try the noticeboards or mediation to resolve editorial disputes. I see nothing here that can't be resolved through our normal editorial processes. Sanctions should be a last resort when dealing with good faith editors, especially those editors who have lengthy service records replete with featured content contributions. Jehochman 19:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman this says "uninvolved administrators", you are not. You are (using your own words) "wiki-friends" with Cirt, and have been going about threatening to block me and others for bringing up his bad behaviour here. You are in place to close this - you shouldn't even be editing it.--Scott Mac 19:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm wikifriends with lots of people, but I'd still sanction them if needs be. That's not a disqualification. I never threatened to block you either. Jehochman 19:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Request for sanctions approved. Substantial and serious evidence of improper editing of BLPs.--Scott Mac 19:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't do that. You're totally out of line. Cirt hasn't been given the necessary warning, and I don't see enough here to generate that warning. (Other admins are welcome to issue such warning if they see it). Scott. Cirt feels you've been in editorial conflict with him. Jehochman 19:41, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, not nearly as far out of line as you are. You seem close enough to Cirt to speak on behalf of his "feelings". You've done nothing but act in a manner that has shown bias and an attempt to intimidate on his behalf, and now you claim impartiality? Your credibility is severely lacking here.--Scott Mac 21:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

No sanction is possible absent the required prior warning. I have no opinion whether Cirt should be given such a warning. T. Canens (talk) 20:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- Any uninvolved administrator is capable of giving that warning at any time. I don't see it right now, but somebody might. Jehochman 21:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Well this sounds familiar. Does this happen often? If it does, there may be procedural improvements to be had to ensure people don't waste their time. If it's just this case, it does have an element of poetic justice, but it's hardly satisfactory. Could someone perhaps give both parties (Cirt and DC) the appropriate warning and tell them not to appear before the bench again? --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure either needs a warning. There were some editorial disagreements. These ought to be resolved with dispute resolution rather than requests for sanctions. It does seem that Cirt fired the first shot in this battle. That ought to be a lesson itself. Jehochman 00:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

JEH: I think you need to stay out of the "uninvolved admin" section on this and related matters, going forward. Your judgment is seriously skewed and you seem (to me anyway, based on appearances) to be employing procedural skullduggery to thwart any action being taken regarding Cirt. Which is distressing. As Scott said, knowing how Cirt feels (or claiming to) suggests involvement. Disengage and leave it to other admins to determine the appropriate outcome. ++Lar: t/c 01:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Added after the close. Per Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Uninvolved_administrators JEH is not involved. I do think his judgment is skewed but he passes the test given in that section. Therefore I withdraw allegations of involvement, without withdrawing my concern over how he has acted. ++Lar: t/c 01:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Lar, do you see that the section above, diffs of prior warnings, lacks the prescribed prior warning? If you have the diff, please provide it. Jehochman 03:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

JEH: I've now given the warnings and gave the diffs. My concern is that you're trying to paperwork this to death... your point 3 is not valid and points 1 and 2 are process wonkery. ++Lar: t/c 04:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Lar has previously commented on a thread that was regarding Cirt at Misplaced Pages Review. Does that make this admin involved? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Didn't you already try this line, and then admit you were all wet? Won't fly. ~~JEH is involved.~~ (not per Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Uninvolved_administrators so striken 01:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)) I'm not. ++Lar: t/c 12:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The only reason I bring this up is there is an effort to claim JEH is involved. Just providing a little context. Others can make with it what they will.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Say, are you an "uninvolved admin"??? if not, your comments don't belong in this section. HTH. ++Lar: t/c 13:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes...Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I see you're an admin, yes, and won't move you back again. Carry on casting aspersions. ++Lar: t/c 22:33, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Lar's warnings. The edits to Scientology-related BLP articles noted by Scott (as noted in the Delicious Carbuncle section above), Delicious Carbuncle and JN466 are indeed problematic. I agree, for example, that Michael Doven article had (and has) serious problems with WP:UNDUE, such as his wife's success at some Scientology level or other, sourced to a primary source. While I appreciate Cirt's willingness to respond to specific issues raised, I would be more impressed if I saw more proactive rather than reactive edits to solve the problems in the articles. Let's hope that a warning of a possible future topic ban is enough of a prompt to develop greater insight into the requirements of BLP-compliant editing, and to take a long hard look with some new spectacles both at past and future edits. --Slp1 (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

What standard are we holding editors to? If Cirt of DC makes even one more questionable edit, any admin can topic ban them. There has to be room for bona fide content disagreements without immediately escalating to sanctions. Lar's warnings are severely deficient because they do not include any diffs. They just point to this monsterous thread and say effectively, "somewhere in this haystack I think there's a needle; go find it yourself". If a sanction or warning is needed, it should be possible to grab the three or four most egregious diffs and post them! If Lar read the thread and checked the diffs, he should have copied these and set them aside. I now request that he does this so that we can understand what the warnings are based upon. Jehochman 20:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

"severely deficient" ??? They are based on the totality of evidence presented in the opening sections. Both editors have acknowledged their warning without questioning the validity. Another sign of your bias, I think, that you seek additional jots/tittles. ++Lar: t/c 22:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

4 of 6 diffs provided above are greater than 6 months old with one more than a year old The newest diff is Oct 13, 2010 which involved adding a link to wikinews regarding a book the BLP wrote. Is this what we are recommending warnings be based on?

Than we have the accusations of "Cirt's ownership tendencies" and "mind-boggling pettiness" which is supposedly proved by the the addition of some negative reviews to a movie. I am not sure how these diffs from June 2010 show either ownership or pettiness? I assumed that ownership would require showing that Cirt would not allow others to add reffed content to this article. The Rottentomato and metacritic comments are in the lead regardless. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

It is precisely because of the history of problems that the warning is appropriate. But it is only a warning. There need to be further problems for any topic ban to be considered and hopefully that won't happen with either editor. If there are further complaints, then there will be time for analysis and discussion, to make sure that the complaints are not of the "bona fide content disagreements" type. Slp1 (talk) 23:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Why are we still at this? Warnings are not appealable, and I could never think of an instance when a warning is "revoked" or whatever, so this discussion is not going to get you any meaningful result. If you think there's a problem with it, arbcom is that way. Something is seriously wrong when enforcing administrators at AE start to behave like the parties. T. Canens (talk) 23:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Than we have this dif by DC regarding this revert and this ref that supports Cirt's version. But other refs also say 109 . We had a previous anon change the time to 105 . Who cares... I agree with T. Canens someone should close this as we should move on... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt is claiming that Lar is not an uninvolved admin, on their talk page. Lar is the person who gave them the warning of the discretionary topic ban. Does a different admin want to go over there and re-state the warning? EdJohnston (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt claiming I am involved does not make it so. Having a different admin go state the warning means Cirt gets to knock out whoever Cirt likes, which has already been repudiated as a general principle. Instead, it would be better to affirm my noninvolvement absent direct evidence to the contrary. ++Lar: t/c 00:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: I have refactored my remarks suggesting that JEH is involved to remove that suggestion, based on Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Uninvolved_administrators. Sorry for editing a closed section but I felt it was important to correct myself. ++Lar: t/c 01:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Gilabrand

Gilabrand blocked for three months; previous sanction set to expire 00:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC), or two months after being unblocked, whichever comes first
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Gilabrand User requesting enforcement Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy that this user violated Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it Gilabrand is "required to discuss any reverts they do make on the talk page, in English, within 30 minutes of the revert". 2-3 days ago a user in these edits removes: "Under Israeli law, West Bank settlements must meet specific criteria to be legal. In 2009, there were approximately 100 small communities that did not meet these criteria and are referred to as illegal outposts." "Among the legal leading scholars who dispute this view is" "Schwebel, a judge of International Court of Justice and Professor of International Law at Johns Hopkins University makes three distinctions specific to the Israeli situation that show the territories were seized in self-defense and thus Israel has more title to them than the previous holders. Professor Julius Stone also writes that ”Israel's presence in all these areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defense.”" "Israel maintains that a temporary use of land and buildings for various purposes is permissible under a plea of military necessity and that the settlements fulfilled security needs." "In 1967, Theodor Meron, legal counsel to the Israeli Foreign Ministry stated in a legal opinion to Adi Yafeh, the Political Secretary of the Prime Minister, "My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention." "The legal opinion, forwarded to Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, was not made public at the time, and the Labor cabinet progressively sanctioned settlements anyway; this action paved the way for future settlement growth. In 2007, Meron stated that "I believe that I would have given the same opinion today."" "The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that the power of the Civil Administration and the Military Commander in the occupied territories is limited by the entrenched customary rules of public international law as codified in the Hague Regulations and Geneva Convention IV." "International law has long recognised that there are crimes of such severity they should be considered "international crimes." Such crimes have been established in treaties such as the Genocide Convention and the Geneva Conventions. .... The following are Israel's primary issues of concern : - The inclusion of settlement activity as a "war crime" is a cynical attempt to abuse the Court for political ends. The implication that the transfer of civilian population to occupied territories can be classified as a crime equal in gravity to attacks on civilian population centres or mass murder is preposterous and has no basis in international law." 2-3 days later after these texts have been removed from the article, Gilabrand reverts all these things and re ads them to the article:. And as can been seen at the talkpage, she did not discuss her reverts within 30 minutes after the reverts as she is obligated to do, she did not discuss them at all: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) She has had many topic bans and blocks: So she has been warned. Her last block for violating the same thing was two weeks ago. Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) Admin can decide. Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning Gilabrand Statement by Gilabrand Comments by others about the request concerning Gilabrand Result concerning Gilabrand This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Gilabrand was recently blocked for seven days for refusing to leave comments, as required. See this AE request from 3 December. It was noted there that she had declared on Nov. 4 she was refusing to follow the restriction: I will NOT leave comments on talk pages unless I feel it is useful and contributes to improving the article. This is a sanction that goes against Misplaced Pages norms, since the person who complained about me retracted his statement. I will continue to edit as necessary, reverting tendentious edits and removing unneeded tags that are placed on articles out of some political agenda or spite. I will continue to copyedit as necessary, and add content and solid references to articles. I will NOT leave comments on talk pages unless I feel it is useful and contributes to improving the article. I will NOT take part in the ridiculous semantic debates that certain editors initiate to bring the state of the article to a standstill. I expect the above message to be struck from the page, as it has clearly been put there in error. Administrators with a chip on their shoulder should be dismissed from the project--Geewhiz (talk) 07:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC) This is a very clearcut case. I recommend that Gilabrand be asked to change her view on this. If not, a lengthy ban from I/P should be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC) Her blocks this year came almost entirely from failure to observe her earlier topic ban - last time she was topic banned she got five blocks. I doubt that placing another topic ban would be useful. I propose a one-month block, and think we should proceed straight to blocking in all future incidents involving this user, since restrictions are not useful if the user is not going to observe them. T. Canens (talk) 19:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC) I would favor a three month block, given the block log. Looie496 (talk) 00:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC) I blocked for three months, in line with Looie's suggestion. The violation here is indisputably, and this makes Gilabrand's seventh block this year for violating ArbCom sanctions (two different ones). For this sanction, she specifically said she has no intention of abiding by the restrictions placed against her. She seems to be going through with her threat, hardly going a week since her last block for violating the same restriction. I'm not sure how many second chances you think someone should get, but I certainly believe Gilabrand has received her fair share. The original restriction is set to expire on 1 May 2011 (UTC) or two months after being unblocked, whichever is earlier. -- tariqabjotu 04:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Gilabrand blocked for three months; previous sanction set to expire 00:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC), or two months after being unblocked, whichever comes first

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Gilabrand

User requesting enforcement: Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Gilabrand is "required to discuss any reverts they do make on the talk page, in English, within 30 minutes of the revert".

2-3 days ago a user in these edits removes:

"Under Israeli law, West Bank settlements must meet specific criteria to be legal. In 2009, there were approximately 100 small communities that did not meet these criteria and are referred to as illegal outposts."

"Among the legal leading scholars who dispute this view is" "Schwebel, a judge of International Court of Justice and Professor of International Law at Johns Hopkins University makes three distinctions specific to the Israeli situation that show the territories were seized in self-defense and thus Israel has more title to them than the previous holders. Professor Julius Stone also writes that ”Israel's presence in all these areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defense.”"

"Israel maintains that a temporary use of land and buildings for various purposes is permissible under a plea of military necessity and that the settlements fulfilled security needs."

"In 1967, Theodor Meron, legal counsel to the Israeli Foreign Ministry stated in a legal opinion to Adi Yafeh, the Political Secretary of the Prime Minister, "My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

"The legal opinion, forwarded to Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, was not made public at the time, and the Labor cabinet progressively sanctioned settlements anyway; this action paved the way for future settlement growth. In 2007, Meron stated that "I believe that I would have given the same opinion today.""

"The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that the power of the Civil Administration and the Military Commander in the occupied territories is limited by the entrenched customary rules of public international law as codified in the Hague Regulations and Geneva Convention IV."

"International law has long recognised that there are crimes of such severity they should be considered "international crimes." Such crimes have been established in treaties such as the Genocide Convention and the Geneva Conventions. .... The following are Israel's primary issues of concern : - The inclusion of settlement activity as a "war crime" is a cynical attempt to abuse the Court for political ends. The implication that the transfer of civilian population to occupied territories can be classified as a crime equal in gravity to attacks on civilian population centres or mass murder is preposterous and has no basis in international law."

2-3 days later after these texts have been removed from the article, Gilabrand reverts all these things and re ads them to the article:. And as can been seen at the talkpage, she did not discuss her reverts within 30 minutes after the reverts as she is obligated to do, she did not discuss them at all: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

She has had many topic bans and blocks: So she has been warned. Her last block for violating the same thing was two weeks ago.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): Admin can decide.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Gilabrand

Statement by Gilabrand

Comments by others about the request concerning Gilabrand

Result concerning Gilabrand

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Gilabrand was recently blocked for seven days for refusing to leave comments, as required. See this AE request from 3 December. It was noted there that she had declared on Nov. 4 she was refusing to follow the restriction:
I will NOT leave comments on talk pages unless I feel it is useful and contributes to improving the article. This is a sanction that goes against Misplaced Pages norms, since the person who complained about me retracted his statement. I will continue to edit as necessary, reverting tendentious edits and removing unneeded tags that are placed on articles out of some political agenda or spite. I will continue to copyedit as necessary, and add content and solid references to articles. I will NOT leave comments on talk pages unless I feel it is useful and contributes to improving the article. I will NOT take part in the ridiculous semantic debates that certain editors initiate to bring the state of the article to a standstill. I expect the above message to be struck from the page, as it has clearly been put there in error. Administrators with a chip on their shoulder should be dismissed from the project--Geewhiz (talk) 07:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
This is a very clearcut case. I recommend that Gilabrand be asked to change her view on this. If not, a lengthy ban from I/P should be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Her blocks this year came almost entirely from failure to observe her earlier topic ban - last time she was topic banned she got five blocks. I doubt that placing another topic ban would be useful. I propose a one-month block, and think we should proceed straight to blocking in all future incidents involving this user, since restrictions are not useful if the user is not going to observe them. T. Canens (talk) 19:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I would favor a three month block, given the block log. Looie496 (talk) 00:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I blocked for three months, in line with Looie's suggestion. The violation here is indisputably, and this makes Gilabrand's seventh block this year for violating ArbCom sanctions (two different ones). For this sanction, she specifically said she has no intention of abiding by the restrictions placed against her. She seems to be going through with her threat, hardly going a week since her last block for violating the same restriction. I'm not sure how many second chances you think someone should get, but I certainly believe Gilabrand has received her fair share. The original restriction is set to expire on 1 May 2011 (UTC) or two months after being unblocked, whichever is earlier. -- tariqabjotu 04:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt II

No action taken. T. Canens (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Request concerning Cirt User requesting enforcement Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Sanction or remedy that this user violated WP:ARBSCI#Discretionary topic ban WP:ARBSCI#Editors instructed (point C) WP:ARBSCI#Editing environment (editors cautioned) Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how* these edits violate it Cirt copied a section of List of Scientologists to List of Scientology officials (leaving the material duplicated in the original article). According to the policy WP:VERIFIABILITY, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Despite all of the discussion here, Cirt made no effort to ensure that the article they created used only reliable sources and was not in violation of WP:BLPCAT, which states that inclusion in lists or application of categories "regarding religious beliefs ... should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief...". Additionally, there is the use of clearly unrelaible sources (including the "unauthorized biography" already discussed in this request). Gratuitous references to Joseph Feshbach in the section on his daughter seem to violate WP:BLP. Although Cirt did correct ( & ) the specific violations that I highlighted after I originally posted this evidence, they made no attempt to prevent the situation even those they had been involved in several discussions of these very issues and warned about the possibility of sanctions. Cirt appears to have made no attempt to address the issues more generally and has left unreliable sources used in this list. It seems unreasonable that an admin involved in the creation of lists of living people associated with a controversial topic should be allowed to violate our policies unless and until someone tells them specifically that they have done so. Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) ] Warning by Lar (talk · contribs) Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) topic ban Additional comments by editor filing complaint Starting a new request for arbitration as requested. Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. Discussion concerning Cirt Statement by Cirt Almost immediately after Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) made his complaints, I substantively addressed them. Please see post to the article's talk page, acknowleding this. Yet again, Delicious carbuncle has failed to attempt any form of talk page discussion or dispute resolution whatsoever. Please also note my recent comment on my talk page diff. -- Cirt (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Update: Please note this update to my user talk page. I have removed remaining pages from my watchlist not related to prior quality improvement and WP:GA/WP:FA projects. I am going to avoid editing within the topic of Scientology, unless directly related to prior GA and FA projects. -- Cirt (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Cirt Seriously? Within seconds of the thread which resulted in a warning being closed? God forbid he trust other Wikipedians who created the page he copied part of - clearly that's something we should ban people for. </sarcasm> Perhaps removing the ban that prevented DC from making further reports on Cirt was a bad idea. Shell 01:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC) That source list page is up for deletion as being problematic. So moving content to another place could be seen as circumventing the deletion request... That said, I do think this request is premature... but if someone is warned, and then repeats the behavior they were warned about, how long is it proper to wait before raising the matter? Cirt appears rather intransigent. Again, I don't think you have all the context here on Cirt's behavior patterns. (no one has put together a neat package of it, regrettably, you'd have had to have been watching all along) ++Lar: t/c 01:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC) When someone was warned a day ago and seems to be making strides to address the slew of complaints in the past 24 hours and going further to voluntarily withdraw from the area, what more can we really ask of them? Perhaps if there's an ongoing problem, there needs to be something put together so that the editor themselves understands what the overall problems people are concerned with are? Shell 01:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Nod. I think it's reasonable to wait a week, two, three, to see if there's substantive change. This request is premature. And yes, someone ought to put together a package (prior to the next request, if any). I too am cheered by Cirt's recent statement on their talk endeavouring to take the input on board and shift focus. ++Lar: t/c 02:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC) I have trouted Delicious carbuncle. This has shifted into a tit-for-tat dispute. Cirt is a great editor (though definitely not perfect one) and this whole dispute is really crossing the line of acceptable AE behavior. That being said i support some sort of interaction ban for 1 to 3 months as Delicious carbuncle has shown himself not to be able to behave as an Adult with the Enforcement requests. Lar, Scott Macdonald, Jayen446, and myself are more then able to Request any additional enforcements in the mean time The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC) I can't support such an interaction ban. I expect DC will take the feedback to wait and see how things play out. Because reviewing the chain of events, his actions were (absent awareness of Cirt's deciding to take a new tack and stand aside from this topic area) reasonable. He had his first request overturned due to 'paperwork' and saw continuing issues even after the warning given. I would have waited a bit longer myself, but I do not agree with your view. ++Lar: t/c 04:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Cirt This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Please people can we not end this for a couple days. Cirt is obviously willing to address the shortcoming. Can people who are interested in this topic not work together and improve it rather than returning here? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC) I agree. I am encouraged by Cirt's statement here; more time needs to have passed, and more support and assistance needs to have been given, before it is possible to say that there are ongoing problems that merit further examination here. --Slp1 (talk) 01:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Per my comments to Shell, above, I too think this should be deferred for a reasonable period of time. Suggest a close, for now, without prejudice to reopening in, say, 2 weeks time if there has not been substantial improvement (as Cirt themselves undertook in their talk page comment) ++Lar: t/c 02:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Move to close. We had a warning 24 hours ago, and absolutely no evidence of misconduct since the warning was issued is presented by filer. (This is said without comment on any older evidence.) Warnings required by the ArbCom are not hoops; they give users a chance to amend their behaviour and not be formally sanctioned. Requesting sanctions at this point is clearly premature. Courcelles 02:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC) This series of enforcement requests and counter-requests has been irreversibly contaminated by a few administrators bickering with each other on top of the basic failures in respecting the requirements for warnings. Barring strenuous objection, close without action, and a strong request that all previously involved and/or commented stay silent when this conflict returns to AE, and let fresh eyes look at the problem.--Tznkai (talk) 04:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC) Here is hoping it does not return... --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

No action taken. T. Canens (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Request concerning Cirt

User requesting enforcement: Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: *WP:ARBSCI#Discretionary topic ban

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Although Cirt did correct ( & ) the specific violations that I highlighted after I originally posted this evidence, they made no attempt to prevent the situation even those they had been involved in several discussions of these very issues and warned about the possibility of sanctions. Cirt appears to have made no attempt to address the issues more generally and has left unreliable sources used in this list. It seems unreasonable that an admin involved in the creation of lists of living people associated with a controversial topic should be allowed to violate our policies unless and until someone tells them specifically that they have done so.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

] Warning by Lar (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Starting a new request for arbitration as requested.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Discussion concerning Cirt

Statement by Cirt

Almost immediately after Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) made his complaints, I substantively addressed them. Please see post to the article's talk page, acknowleding this. Yet again, Delicious carbuncle has failed to attempt any form of talk page discussion or dispute resolution whatsoever. Please also note my recent comment on my talk page diff. -- Cirt (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Update: Please note this update to my user talk page. I have removed remaining pages from my watchlist not related to prior quality improvement and WP:GA/WP:FA projects. I am going to avoid editing within the topic of Scientology, unless directly related to prior GA and FA projects. -- Cirt (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Cirt

Seriously? Within seconds of the thread which resulted in a warning being closed? God forbid he trust other Wikipedians who created the page he copied part of - clearly that's something we should ban people for. </sarcasm> Perhaps removing the ban that prevented DC from making further reports on Cirt was a bad idea. Shell 01:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

That source list page is up for deletion as being problematic. So moving content to another place could be seen as circumventing the deletion request... That said, I do think this request is premature... but if someone is warned, and then repeats the behavior they were warned about, how long is it proper to wait before raising the matter? Cirt appears rather intransigent. Again, I don't think you have all the context here on Cirt's behavior patterns. (no one has put together a neat package of it, regrettably, you'd have had to have been watching all along) ++Lar: t/c 01:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

When someone was warned a day ago and seems to be making strides to address the slew of complaints in the past 24 hours and going further to voluntarily withdraw from the area, what more can we really ask of them? Perhaps if there's an ongoing problem, there needs to be something put together so that the editor themselves understands what the overall problems people are concerned with are? Shell 01:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Nod. I think it's reasonable to wait a week, two, three, to see if there's substantive change. This request is premature. And yes, someone ought to put together a package (prior to the next request, if any). I too am cheered by Cirt's recent statement on their talk endeavouring to take the input on board and shift focus. ++Lar: t/c 02:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I have trouted Delicious carbuncle. This has shifted into a tit-for-tat dispute. Cirt is a great editor (though definitely not perfect one) and this whole dispute is really crossing the line of acceptable AE behavior. That being said i support some sort of interaction ban for 1 to 3 months as Delicious carbuncle has shown himself not to be able to behave as an Adult with the Enforcement requests. Lar, Scott Macdonald, Jayen446, and myself are more then able to Request any additional enforcements in the mean time The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I can't support such an interaction ban. I expect DC will take the feedback to wait and see how things play out. Because reviewing the chain of events, his actions were (absent awareness of Cirt's deciding to take a new tack and stand aside from this topic area) reasonable. He had his first request overturned due to 'paperwork' and saw continuing issues even after the warning given. I would have waited a bit longer myself, but I do not agree with your view. ++Lar: t/c 04:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Cirt

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Please people can we not end this for a couple days. Cirt is obviously willing to address the shortcoming. Can people who are interested in this topic not work together and improve it rather than returning here? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I am encouraged by Cirt's statement here; more time needs to have passed, and more support and assistance needs to have been given, before it is possible to say that there are ongoing problems that merit further examination here. --Slp1 (talk) 01:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Per my comments to Shell, above, I too think this should be deferred for a reasonable period of time. Suggest a close, for now, without prejudice to reopening in, say, 2 weeks time if there has not been substantial improvement (as Cirt themselves undertook in their talk page comment) ++Lar: t/c 02:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Move to close. We had a warning 24 hours ago, and absolutely no evidence of misconduct since the warning was issued is presented by filer. (This is said without comment on any older evidence.) Warnings required by the ArbCom are not hoops; they give users a chance to amend their behaviour and not be formally sanctioned. Requesting sanctions at this point is clearly premature. Courcelles 02:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This series of enforcement requests and counter-requests has been irreversibly contaminated by a few administrators bickering with each other on top of the basic failures in respecting the requirements for warnings. Barring strenuous objection, close without action, and a strong request that all previously involved and/or commented stay silent when this conflict returns to AE, and let fresh eyes look at the problem.--Tznkai (talk) 04:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is hoping it does not return... --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Per Honor et Gloria

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Per Honor et Gloria

User requesting enforcement: El on ka 01:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested: Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PHG#PHG's topic ban is narrowed and extended

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Gaza (1260) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Gaza (1299-1300) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Jerusalem - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Siege of Aleppo (1299) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Siege of Damascus (1299) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Warning by Elonka (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction): The subpages should be deleted, and PHG cautioned to not use his userspace in an attempt to get around the topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Per Honor et Gloria (PHG) is a fine editor in many areas of the project, and has many articles to his credit. Unfortunately though, in the topic area of Mongol history, he has been pushing a POV for years now, cherry-picking sources, and in some cases just flat-out misrepresenting what sources say. Multiple arbitration cases and motions have resulted, with the most recent one in November 2010, extending PHG's topic ban indefinitely: " is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, all broadly defined. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion." Unfortunately, PHG is not respecting his topic ban, and has been creating articles in his userspace which continue to push the same POVs. Note: As a caution to those not familiar with the subject matter, PHG's biased articles often look well-sourced, but this is an illusion. For a clear and simple example of the problem, note his subpages "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem", and "Mongol occupation of Gaza". Even the simplest Google search on those terms will show that these terms are absolutely not common nor in any way a representation of mainstream historical consensus. In fact, the majority of Google links point only to PHG's userspace and PHG-created images. I have asked PHG to please respect his topic ban, and delete the articles from his userspace, but he has refused. I am therefore requesting arbitration enforcement. The subpages should be deleted, and PHG either warned or blocked for violating the terms of the topic ban. Thanks, --El on ka 01:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(reply to EdJohnston) I understand what you are saying about using noindex, but that only addresses part of the problem. PHG is not just maintaining the information for talkpage discussion, but also because he intends to persuade other editors to create the articles for him. This already happened with Mongol elements in Western medieval art. PHG created it in his userspace, started an RfC on it, got a few editors to agree that it was worth an article, and then one of them created the article for him. I disagreed that it was worth an entire article, especially because the vast majority of the information came from one source by one author, Rosalind Mack. I didn't make a big fuss about it at the time because it's not an egregious example, but it's obvious to me that he is intending to follow the same process with the other articles in his userspace, which are much bigger problems. He should abide by the spirit of the topic ban, which was intended not to punish, but to protect the project, and protect the time of other editors so they don't have to keep dealing with PHG's POV-pushing. PHG has already wasted far too much community time, and he just won't let go of this "Mongols conquering Jerusalem" POV. This has been going on since 2007, required hundreds of hours of work from many editors to document what he was doing, and even more work to cleanup the dozens of articles where he had inserted POV information. The arbitration cases themselves were especially complex, because of the way that PHG edits. His articles look well-sourced, even when they are not. So if he tries to push his "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem" article via an RfC, then editors who don't look deeply into the sources are probably going to say, "Looks fine," and it is again going to require the time of Mongol-literate editors such as myself to patiently explain to outside participants that no, just because PHG has a paragraph with 10 sources, does not mean that the paragraph in any way represents mainstream historical consensus. It was my hope that with the indefinite topic ban in place, that this process would stop, and that I and others wouldn't keep having to spend time explaining why PHG's editing was problematic. What I would prefer is that the topic ban be exactly what was intended: A ban from editing in the topic area, which includes a ban on him continuing to create articles about the exact same topic in his userspace. We have to draw a line in the sand. --El on ka 07:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: (notified)

Discussion concerning Per Honor et Gloria

I think this clearly goes against the intent of the remedies in the case. Working on articles in the topic area is forbidden; doing so in his userspace is no different than creating them in main space and continues the problems that caused the topic ban. Shell 01:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Isn't that one of the things that got WMC in continued hot water after the close of the CC case? If notification of problems is unacceptable, certainly drafting versions is as well. ++Lar: t/c 04:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes it was. In this case though the bigger concern is that he didn't just draft articles - he's actively asking editors to proxy them into mainspace for him to circumvent his ban. (And someone who likely didn't know about the ban has already done this once for him ) Shell 10:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Per Honor et Gloria

Comments by others about the request concerning Per Honor et Gloria

Comment by Mathsci The article User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Jerusalem is a flagrant violation of PHG's topic ban, since this article involves precisely the subject matter of the "Franco-Mongol relations" ArbCom case, a French crusader topic where I have assisted Elonka over the years. The issues of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and the misuse of primary sources have recurred in PHG's editing, e.g. in Franco-Siamese War, Assassination of Inspector Grosgurin, Auguste Pavie and more recently Greeks in pre-Roman Gaul. There the section on Μασσαλία was partially rewritten and re-sourced by me in February 2010. PHG subsequently added a map concerning "colonies of Marseilles" that he seems to have created using an alternative account at commons. It has no basis in fact whatsoever: there appear to be no secondary sources mentioning colonies of Marseille. The roughly contemporary Phocean colony of Εμπόριον in Catalonia is marked as a colony of Μασσαλία on the map: I edited the article on Empúries in 2008 to remove an inaccuracy about Phocea ; PHG made his own characteristic additions, the picture of a coin and a misleading link, in 2009. PHG often includes his own conjectures about cross-cultural issues in wikipedia articles, even though they are often not supported by secondary sources. His resourcefulness at finding or producing images, particularly of coins or canonry, is extremely impressive and shows real enthusiam; often these evocative images, as in Auguste Pavie#Gallery, create immense pleasure for the reader. However, sometimes his own personal theories seem to take precedence over the reliability of this encyclopedia, particularly in history articles, ancient, medieval or modern. Mathsci (talk) 11:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Per Honor et Gloria

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I think in somewhat similar lines with Shell; while clever enough not to breach the topic ban, it is pushing right up against the limits of it. All that said, and I know this is the third time in five days I've said this and folks are sick of it, ArbCom decisions have to be read narrowly. "Accordingly, this user is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, all broadly defined." These userpages aren't technically "articles". I also note that the Committee has worded PHeG's topic ban differently than others, for example in the Climate Change case, where they prohibited "(i) editing articles about Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; (ii) editing biographies of living people associated with Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; (iii) participating in any process broadly construed on Misplaced Pages particularly affecting these articles; and (iv) initiating or participating in any discussion substantially relating to these articles anywhere on Misplaced Pages, even if the discussion also involves another issue or issues." That is clearly a much broader topic ban than PHeG is subject to. This matter could almost go back to the Committee for another clarification. Courcelles 02:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think, here, being clever enough not to breach a topic ban = a breach of the topic ban. I think we can act to stop obvious gaming of a restriction without needing to go to Arbcom for clarification. In any case, this breach is arguable even on the words of the restriction. They're articles. Just not in mainspace. At the least, all pages should be deleted under G5. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Since the remedy at issue here explicitly permits commenting on talk pages, this topic ban is not clearly a remedy intended to force complete disengagement, unlike in the CC case. I agree with Courcelles, and think it best to ask for clarification here. T. Canens (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Noindex should be used. PHG wants to keep material for purposes of talk page discussion in user sub-pages. But his User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Siege of Aleppo (1299) is currently found in Google searches as the #2 hit for 'siege of aleppo'. He should be required to add {{noindex}} at the head of all these pages. (Geo Swan did this for his working pages on Guantanamo prisoners, as well as {{userspace draft}}, which in my opinion complies with all policies). If PHG declines to mark these pages with 'noindex' and 'userspace draft', then their protection from the ban will go away and they should be deleted under the Arbcom ruling per G5, as argued by Mkativerata. EdJohnston (talk) 06:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if that were what he was using them for, that could be reasonable. If you read PHG's response and see how we got here though, PHG believes it is appropriate to use his ability to edit the talk pages of articles in his topic ban to ask other editors to proxy these articles into mainspace for him. This tactic has worked once already (which is how I was alerted to these articles in his userspace) - see Talk:Franco-Mongol_alliance#RfC:_Mongol_influences_in_European_art and . Shell 10:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:40, 19 December 2010

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Captain Occam

Statement by Captain Occam

Response to Vassyana

Response to Timothy Canens

Statement by EdJohnston

Statement by Timotheus Canens

Statement by Mathsci

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

Response to Aprock

Statement by VsevolodKrolikov

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Captain Occam

Result of the appeal by Captain Occam

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dojarca

Statement by Dojarca

Statement by Mkativerata

Comment by Dojarca

Statement (not really more like a puzzlement) by Volunteer Marek

Request for clarification from Petri and others

Responses by Peri Krohn

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Questions by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dojarca

Result of the appeal by Dojarca

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Statement by Delicious carbuncle

Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise

Statement by Cirt

Statement by DocJames

Statement by Griswaldo

Statement by Jayen466

Attn. Timotheus Canens

Statement by Scott MacDonald re BLP issues

Statement by The Resident Anthropologist (talk)

Short timeline

Another Statement

Comment by GraemeL

Statement by un☯mi

Statement by Littleolive oil

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Result of appeal by Delicious carbuncle, section 2

Silver seren

Request concerning Silver seren

Discussion concerning Silver seren

Statement by Silver seren

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Statement by Biophys

Statement by Collect (who just found himself being accused without notification)

Comments by others about the request concerning Silver seren

Comment by BorisG

Result concerning Silver seren

Jalapenos do exist

Request concerning Jalapenos do exist

Short version of evidence

Response to Tznkai

Suggestion

Response to EdJohnston

Response to Tznkai's proposed remedy

Discussion concerning Jalapenos do exist

Statement by Jalapenos do exist

Interim questions

Comment on Tznkai's response

Statement by EdChem

Comments by others about the request concerning Jalapenos do exist

Statement by Brewcrewer

Statement by Unomi

Comment regarding Mbz1

Re Jalapenos and Civilian_casualty_ratio

Leadup

Thoughts on Jalapenos Comments

Statement by Sol

Statement by BorisG

Statement by Cptnono

Statement by Epeefleche

Statement by Mbz1

Result concerning Jalapenos do exist

Cirt

Request concerning Cirt

Discussion concerning Cirt

Statement by u n☯mi

Comments by u n☯mi