Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:51, 21 February 2006

There was some confusion between OrbitOne and myself; he thought I caused the vandalism. Everything's worked out now. Xiphoris 11:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, there was some obvious vandalism to this page with someone defacing it to say that Saddam Hussein was behind it, UFOs, Effiel Tower was hit, etc. I tried to revert it properly but don't know if I did. Xiphoris 11:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

Template:FormerFA

Template:FACfailed is deprecated, and is preserved only for historical reasons. Please see Template:Article history instead.

This article (or a previous version) is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination did not succeed. For older candidates, please check the Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Wow, that's a lot of templates. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

...so why did User:SNIyer12 delete all of the page contents...? Jhardin@impsec 21:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

He just put the older stuff in archives, where you can still read them. Tom Harrison 21:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I just put the older stuff so that I can reduce the page size. However, you can still read the older stuff in the archives. SNIyer12 00:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

To tell the truth, i think the government knew all about 9/11 n' crap. Oh, and if the towers fell from planes, then why did they fall EXACTLY how buildings fall when they are dynamited eh? I think that 9/11 was all planned. Son Goku22

Battle of the bulge

I am repeating this because it is unfinsihed business that was archived.

This article is still too long. It has seven subpages, which is admirable, but the text in this article that accompanies a reference to each subpage varies from non-existant to bulky. I suggest that the bulky text accompanying subpage references has major potential for reduction in size w/o loss of overall quality. It is just a matter of moving the less-important references in such sections as "conspiracy theories", "war on terrorism" and "responsibility" can be moved down to their corresponding subpages and properly summarizing the most important, historic reults of these subpages (just like we have now mostly done with the lead section). How about it, guys? We can still make this a featured article, but you have to be willing sensational items that, historically, are merely line-items, get moved down to the subpages. -- Pinktulip 06:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm okay with that in principle; the trouble will be in the details. It should be possible to make the improvements you describe if it's done slowly. Maybe add the details elsewhere first, then take them away from this page? Tom Harrison 15:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I also want to point out that we have over 40 URL footnotes. That is too many. We should delegate that stuff to the "main article" subpages or make regular references out of them. With seven subpages, it should be possible to get this article below 30 KBytes. -- Pinktulip 11:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The 9/11 commission is not the story

This is about what happened on 9/11 and its specfic aftermath. Please do not insert the 9/11 Commission into the lead section. Please do not insert the word "terrorist" into the text an excessive number of times. The reader already konws that people who hijack planes are terrorists. The 9/11 Commission has its own page. -- Pinktulip 01:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

It is correct to say that the terrorists were terrorists; ostentatiously avoiding the word is not neutrality. Some editors have thought it necessary to make clear that the 9/11 Commission is the organization that using the 't' word; this is part of why I was concerned with your (otherwise reasonable) efforts to trim fat from the article. In trimming fat, you also cut out the citations that some thought needed to be there. Tom Harrison 01:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"The reader already konws that people who hijack planes are terrorists."

No, people who hijack planes are not exclusively terrorists. See article about Aircraft hijacking for many cases (ransoms, etc.), which are not described "terrorism" but just "criminal".

Terrorism is strongly politically colored word without clear definition, and therefore should be avoided (see words to avoid guidelines). Politically motivated aircraft hijackers should be refered to with word "militant" - it includes all the same information without being arbitrary used for political purposes. Klaam 12:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Um...you seem to be very attuned for someone with so few edits...have we met before? Sorry if the term is perjorative...this is an article about an event that happened in the U.S. and every single media source and the U.S. Government call the actions of the hijackers terrorists...they didn't just take the planes to Tahiti...they used them as missles, killing almost 3,000 people and that is terrorism.--MONGO 12:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, if every single Pakistani and Middle-East media describes Pakistani civilian village bombed by US with word "terrorism", is that a good reason to refer to CIA or whatever as a US-supported terrorist organizations in Misplaced Pages articles? On the other hand, many acts called 'terrorism' by US media are globally (possibly by larger population) called militarism. We should not define the use of words according to media in some country, but use politically neural word as "militant".

And on the other hand, one of the 911 attacks was on military target and others could be described as strategic targets like tv-station and power station in iraq war, thus someone might argue that civilian casualties were just unnecessarily casualties (and yes, Bin Laden said so).

Or is "terrorism" defined by number of civilian casualties? Someone might argue, that CIA is equal to Taleban-era Afghanistan supported Al-Qaeda because it equipped and supported acts done by Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet, Talebans, etc., which after all, resulted entire genocides. So civilian casualties can't be the defining criteria either.

I suggest that the word "terrorism" is used only in citations.Klaam 13:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Or every single Chinese media and Chinese government labeling independece movements such Falun Gong (which has killed pro-government civilians) "terrorist pr

Tom Harrison: You are spliting hairs. We are not talking about hijacking cargo planes. Kidnapping is an act of violence and terrorism, even if a ransom is asked for. It is only the coercive force of threatened violence that puts the kidnappers into a position to demand the ransom. It is not as if you could argue that the kidnappers are entrepeneurs who are starting a profitable new business because the act itself is fundamentally destructive to civilization. Your approach suggests that you wish to reduce to the discussion down to simply calling some of the participants "terrorists" and letting it go at that. Misplaced Pages is not about providing labels. It is about providing information and letting the reader be the judge. -- Pinktulip 12:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The article (currently) says that "The 9/11 Commission states in its final report that the nineteen hijackers who carried out the attack were terrorists." That's cited, verifiable, and relevant. Tom Harrison 14:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Tom Harrison: The reader, does not need the help of the 9/11 Commission to figure out that the attackers are terrorists. The assertion can be made by the article that Al-Quaida is a terrorist organization without the help of the 9/11 Commission. Please stop re-inserting the 9/11 Commission into the lead section. -- Pinktulip 18:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

It is an important and relevant fact that should appear prominently. I support its inclusion in the introduction. Tom Harrison 18:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Does the reader need the Warren Commission to tell him that Lee Harvey Oswald was an "assasin"? No. Does the reader need the corresponding Commissions of the Challenger/Columbia shuttle loses to tell him that those events were "disasters" and "accidents"? No. So also, the reader does not need this Comission's word of "terrorist". The reader can figure it out for himself. -- Pinktulip 19:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not find your analogies persuasive. Leaving out relevant details to avoid any mention of the 't' word does not give us commendable brevity, it gives us an incomplete article. Bending over backwards to avoid using the word "terrorist" is not the path to neutrality. If you have citations from some notable and verifiable source saying that they were not terrorists, but instead gallant freedom-fighters, give us a source and we can consider including it. Tom Harrison 20:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Bill Harrison: Let us take this scenario:

1. It is 9/12. You have full information about what happened prior to and on 9/11 and your job was to report what happened on 9/11. The Commission has not yet happened and you are not required to provide historical context of a forward-looking nature. Under those circumstances, how should the first two paragraphs lead section read? I suggest that, under those circumstances, the first two paragraphs should not mention the 9/11 Commision because it has not yet happened. I suggest further that this is how the paragraphs should read now and from now on.
2. Five years have passed and then you add a third paragraph about the aftermath without changing the first two paragraphs at all.
3. Ten years have passed and it is now time to update the article again. You are considering updating the first two paragraphs, even though you had full infomration at the time you wrote those two paragraphs. You are thinking about adding the phrase "...which later lead to..." but you want to do minimal change, again, because you did have full information at that time. Which phrase, if either, do you chose to add:

• "...which later lead to two wars..."
• "...which later lead to a 9/11 commision to calling the attackers terrorists..."

We currently keep the mention of two wars to the thrird paragraph, but you keep inserting the 9/11 commission into the second paragraph. I think that this represents a lack of perspective on what is historically Important. The 9/11 Commission happened much later than 9/11 and merely collected information and submitted a report. If it provides new facts about what happened earlier, then incorporate those specific facts. If you want to add that "NYC/USA/World was terrorized to some quantifiable degree", then that would not be incorrect, but the reader can probably figure out this somewhat vague notion on their own, based on the other, more specific facts. I am going to wait another day and then I am going to remove your added reference to the 9/11 Commssion again because it does not fit into the historical narrative. -- Pinktulip 04:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

In spite of your insistence, I still think these facts need to be featured prominently in the introduction, for the reasons I have presented above. If your position is that it must be removed and replaced with your version, I don't see that there's much room for discussion. Tom Harrison 21:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

"Terrorist" words occur 30 times

Using the word "terrorist", "terror", etc. occur thirty times in the article; that is more than enough. It is merely a label and provides little information to the reader. 30 times is more than enough. It occurs once in the lead section and that is sufficient. -- Pinktulip 12:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages guidelines:

The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. This is the standard Misplaced Pages format "X says Y". If this is followed, the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist, and that the word does not appear to be used, unqualified, by the "narrative voice" of the article. In other cases, terms such as "militant(s)" may be a suitable alternative, implying a group or individual who uses force to attain their objectives. (Note: - The term is not as likely to be disputed if the person or organization verifiably and officially calls themselves "terrorist". But then this should be cited.)

It is often not necessary to label a group or individual as a terrorist, any more than to say "X is an evil person". Describing their acts will make clear what they are.

I agree with pinktulip that adding 9/11 Commision to the lead section adds bloat without important new information. What is the problem with word "militant"? What is the specific need why it should be replaced with the word "terrorist"?

I'd kindly appreciate if all the contributors introduced themselves into Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Misplaced Pages should not be a political battlefield, so please don't start edit wars against clearly stated policies and guidelines - instead, discuss about your opinions in the talk pages. Thanks. Klaam 12:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

And the "Al-Qaeda" article, in its own right, demonstrates that the organization is a terrorist organization, so no further explaination in this page is needed. -- Pinktulip 12:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If another article is written poorly, I don't think that's a reason to use controversial terms in this article. How does the Al-Qaeda article "demonstrate that the organization is a terrorist organization"? Klaam 13:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If the Al-Qaeda article needs improvement, then please contribute what you have to offer. I still assert that it is the lack of our ability to briefly and efffectly summarize these other articles that causes this article to bloat and be of low quality. -- Pinktulip 18:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The descriptive word is terrorist. It is verifiable and it is cited. This is the Misplaced Pages policy. It is necessary to label the 19 hijackers as terrorists. There is a problem with the word militant -- it is inaccurate. What's been called bloat appears to me to be a smokescreen in order to prevent the article from describing their acts make clear what they are. (quoting the guideline already mentioned) patsw 14:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Patsw: Your comment in your most recent change to the Talk page "Perhaps it should occur 35 times" helps to highlight the problem. Such repeatative usage of a word in a historical narrative is a warning sign of a problem. It might not really be problem, but it might be a problem with balance, it might be POV. It is not hard to see how such a repetative usage leads to bloat. If you really think that there is some kind of smokescreen, then please just cut through it an point out what it is that is behind that smokescreen and that is so Important. -- Pinktulip 16:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is best to not use numerous alternative words to descripe the same entity, as that would be confusing...except in different tones of voice...take for example the American Civil War...the Northern forces are called:Yankees, federals, and Union...the Southern forces are called Rebels, Confederates,Southerners, etc...and there are other terms I have found. To the outside person that is unfamiliar with the situation, this terms, when spred out in an article can become confusing. This is an article about an event that happened in the U.S., and since the vast majority of media, the U.S. government and citizens of the U.S. believe that the actions of the hijackers was terrorism, then that is within the balance of Misplaced Pages's policy of neutral point of view, where it also states that the majority viewpoint need not be removed to give undue weight to the extreme minority ...as a point in that passage, it clear states that "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." I understand that some extreme elements find the term terrorist to be pejorative...but it is the extreme minority viewpoint, and at best, deserves only a passing comment here, or to needs to be relegated to a subarticle.--MONGO 19:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not math or science where such consistent terminology might be best. This is human history where each day and each person and each event is unique. Parallels can be drawn, but each event is unique. If we could simply derive 9/11 from a bunch of definitions and axioms and theorems, then that wold make the job easier, but that simply is not the case. I think that most readers of history prefer to see some breadth of vocabulary in the narrative so that they can form their own opinion based on the reported facts and the range of terms used to describe the complex and varied events. Again, the word "terrorist" does not convey a great deal of specific information about specifically what happened. The reader would prefer a more specific term for some fo the participants, such as "hijacker" interspersed with the T-word, so immediately, using the same word in a monotonous fashion again breaks down. -- Pinktulip 20:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The uniqueness of the events of 9/11 present the greatest opportunity in human history to indeed use the term terrorism without anyone aside from the extreme fringe to be in disagreement. I recognize we are writing for the world, but this is the English language version of Misplaced Pages, and it need not adopt the extreme minority viewpoint at the expense of reality.--MONGO 21:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Our "opportunity" is when a reader bothers to even try to read this article. Our job is to inform the reader about what happened. Using the word "terrorist" as much or more than is in the current article does that job, but the results fall solidly in the realm of mediocrity. -- Pinktulip 22:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

A terrorist is not a necessarily also a militant...militants do not necessarily engage in terrorism. This is the English language version of Misplaced Pages...and in the English speaking world the overwhelming vast majority of news sources worldwide, the U.S. Government, most governments of Europe, even asia and elaswhere cosnider the actions of the hijackers to be terrorism...the actions of all hijackers almost definitely fits this term also...as I said, this was a severe hijacking...the planes were used as bombs and it was planned that way...the extremist fringe minority does not get equal footing in article space to minimize factual terminology and definitions. I can think of no more clearly illuminating circumstance in which the definition of terrorism could be more accurate than when defining the actions of the hijackers.--MONGO 03:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Mongo: My only interest is in seeing this article achieve the Featured Article status. I assert that any Misplaced Pages article (other than, of course, the Terrorism article and its ilk) that attempts to present present itself as a historical narrative and uses "terrorist" (and its derivatives) more than thirty times in the one article, given the current arbitrary limit of 32 KB for article size will not achieve Featured Article status in the forseeable future. I suggest you look at the works of this teenager: User:Lord Emsworth . Note that he has produced many Featured Articles and rarely found the need to use the "terrorist" words despite that fact that he was frequently writing about people engaged in warfare. -- Pinktulip 08:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. The best way to achieve featured article status is to be factual in evidence and in terminology. I think we would be selling out to the minoity view if we used terminology that is weaselly...Lord Elmsworth's articles are impressive...his future is bright for sure. Regardless, none of them are discussing a contemporary event of this magnitude and or of this experience. I've seen the arguments that the Bombing of dresden was terrorism, that the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan are terrorism...I say fine...put that in those articles then...but the fact remains that no other term better fits the description of what we are discussing here, in THIS article, than terrorism. Militant doesn't work, nor infidel, enemy combatant, freedom fighter, soldier, etc. If you are so concerned about this becoming a FA, then work on trimming about 10 to 15 KB off the article, and it needs about 20 more references anyway if it's going to remain this huge.--MONGO 08:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can reword the article to eliminate the need for the word to be used so often, or any descriptive word to appear so often. That should give you a project here. Remove the need for the use of the word that appears so abundantly by rewriting sentnces to that the word doesn't have to be there. Bear in mind that it's still going to be there though so it's complete removal I oppose completely, but as an effort to work on this, I'll support the rephrasing of sentences in some sections so that no descriptive word is necessary...that will make veryone happy I think.--MONGO 08:57, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Mongo: Lord Em wrote about people involved in life-or-death struggles involving total warfare where the stakes involved were often a matter of national survival. Many atrocities and other acts occurred that, compared to 9/11, could much more easily qualify as terrorism. Your notion of magnitude seems to lack historical perspective. Those events were, in fact, of much greater magnitude in terms of the number of fatalities and the stakes involved. Those events were not televized, but many of the acts were clearly designed to terrorize, yet Lord Em rarely resorts that phrase. -- Pinktulip 09:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

We are discussing different things so don't take them out of context. I give a little in my last comment and that isn't enough. Obviously you want the term terrorist removed from here and that aint gonna happen. I've looked through and read many of those articles over the past year and the word terrorism doesn't fit in most cases anyway.--MONGO 12:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

"Reader fatigue" with the word terrorist will take a back seat to accuracy in describing the people who committed the attacks of September 11, 2001. patsw 14:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

As I already pointed out: Lord Em achieved accurracy w/o excessive use of the word, even though he could have defended his choice to use it a great deal. You should really ask yourself: What does he have you you have not got? I suuggest that he, despite his youth, has a larger vocabulary and a n ability to uee it properly. -- Pinktulip 00:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that your comment is a personal attack so you need to read about that for future reference WP:NPA...our vocabularies are fine and again, none of his articles are compariable. The word terrorist stays as that is the best definition to fit the actions.--MONGO 00:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I am sure that there are people who love and respect patsw just exactly because of who he is. No one seems to disagree with the suggestion that his vocabulary is smaller. Perhaps that limitation is what makes his Soul him so endearing to us all. It does not make him any less of a person in our eyes or in God's eyes. It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article. I love him. We all love him. If I could, I would give him a hug, right now. You love him, do you not, Mongo? Or is it MONGO? Anyway, please write a message, Mongo, that says you love patsw. I am beginning to have my doubts with you. Just a simple message, Mongo, saying "I love patsw". And maybe that you would give him a hug also. Nothing sexual, of course. -- Pinktulip 10:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I love everybody! I disagree with your comment that patsw has a small vocabulary. What purpose does your other comment "It just keeps him from being able to produce a Featured Article" serve. Maybe he has a featured article and doesn't brag about it...maybe he doesn't want to write a featured article...but definitely, you owe him a big apology absolutely. Sooner, the better.--MONGO 13:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

(removed long-ish joke apology).

What is this all about? Why is it HERE? Not sure it even belongs there but it should be in patsw's talk page, but not here for sure. I'm inclined to remove this in all honesty.--MONGO 01:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

9-11 was a conspiracy

I can think of no more clearly illuminating circumstance in which the definition of conspiracy could be more accurate than when defining the actions of the hijackers 69.231.8.216 07:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to the 9/11 conspiracy theories and try to get a feel for the consensus there. Thanks. El_C 07:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I misread that. Still, I felt the addition suffered from some issues. My latest changes are here. Thanks. El_C 07:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

A couple of teenagers looking to boost some pairs of Nikes from Wal-Mart is a conspiracy as well. What's the point? patsw 14:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The point is, "conspiracy" is a far more meaningful, accurate and appropriate word than "set", "group" or "series", the three words which have been inserted to replace it. Trying to compare two teenagers stealing shoes with (at least) 20 terrorists conspiring for years and succeeding in killing thousands and destroying $billions in property, this is a vacuous comparison.

If you don't use "set", "group" or "series" it's not just POV, it's bad English. The conspiracy preceded the attacks. Once the assault was underway, the four groups or sets of hijackers could no longer conspire. Ruby 16:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

To me the part about the conspiracies is incredibly biased. It basically says that the theories are put forward by those that hate the government or even America (Gods own nation iself!) or are just trying to get money of it. In my eyes, that is nowhere near neutral. JS 15 February 2006

Comparison with Antietam

I have noticed the edits and reverts, concerning comparisons of the 9/11 death toll with those of the Battle of Antietam, during the Civil War. I think some clarifications are needed:

1. I don't think that Rmmbrhllwn / 68.185.250.128 / MI6mole quite understands what the term casualty means. Casualites include fatalities, as well as # wounded.
   1. The Battle of Antietam, which occurred on September 17, 1862, resulted in 3,620 deaths (both sides), not 20,000 as was stated in this article.
      1. The Battle of Gettysburg occurred over three days, with 6,655. I don't know how many occurred on each of the days, but probably not as many as 2,986.
      2. The Battle of Shiloh occurred over two days, with 3,477 deaths. Again, probably not as many as 2,986 were killed on either of those particular days.
2. I also think making a comparison between military deaths during war and civilian deaths during a terrorist attacks, doesn't fit in the article, yet alone the introduction.

-Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 21:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but bear in mind that those figures are not accurate for confederate troops and in some cases, only count federal dead. Regardless, there is no need to evn have the comparison in the article anyway...it serves no purpose except to make the event of 9/11 seem less important than it was.--MONGO 00:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Hijackers

Another user insisted that this topic was to be created. I added a link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm) disputing the claim of the "nineteen hijackers". I see no problem adding this link. Do you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.1.180 (talk • contribs)

I also remember the doubts about some of the hijackers in the days following the attacks... I think you're referring to Waleed_al-Shehri. However, the reports of surviving 'hijackers' were later discounted, as a mix-up involving names — very common names in Saudi Arabia. The following article (and quote) is cited in the Waleed al-Shehri article on Misplaced Pages:

"...at the time his reporters did not speak directly with the so-called "survivors," but instead combined reports from other Arab papers. These reports, says Bradley, appeared at a time when the only public information about the attackers was a list of names that had been published by the FBI on September 14th. The FBI did not release photographs until four days after the cited reports, on September 27th.

The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, "all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we're dealing with are coincidentally identical names." In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are "as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain." - quote from (Spiegel online, September 8, 2003)

-Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 22:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

PS. you can sign your comments by adding ~~~~.

Demonstrations

It should be noted that there were demonstrations all over the world in protest against these terrorist acts. Some information should be noted. As a sidenote, even as I regard the Yussuf Islam issue important I do not think it belongs to this article. Get-back-world-respect 03:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I second both these points; the Yussuf Islam issue was in fact what I came to this talk page to write about. Also Yassir Arafat's push for Palestinian schoolchildren to donate blood, while totally absurd, was definitely part of the international reaction. --Rschmertz 03:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I recall there was once in this article a mention of demonstrations supporting the 9/11 terrorists in Palestine, Egypt, and Syria. The mention was removed since the person adding it was unable or unwilling to provide a citation or other verification of the event. Information that can be verified is always welcome. patsw 04:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. I am just going to help you find the relevant pages:

• Category:September 11, 2001 attacks - very helpful in determining the scope of the existing coverage
• Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks - to navigate to this page, you have to go through Aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks. Quite boring, but that is the existing structure that has been established now for quite some time now.

So...my message is: You are always welcome to REVIEW THE EXISTING WORK before you go adding redundant and jumbled references on the main 9/11 page (thereby condemnning it to never becoming a Featured Article) to things that are, oh yes, very yummy and sensational, but that you seem to only vaguely recall. -- Pinktulip 12:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's put an end to the charade here and now.

It is now beyond ridiculous to have this site including so much proven disinformation. Misplaced Pages will be judged by how soon it came to the same conclusion millions are now coming to--9-11 was an elaborate fraud involving the controlled demolition of a set of aging, asbestos-ridden office buildings that contained investigative files from the SEC and a whole lot of other stuff that was destroyed. There is ZERO evidence for the involvement of any of the alleged hijackers, and bin Laden did NOT ever admit guilt (see fake audio tapes, fake terror experts, and fake arab news networks. Members of the Project for a New American Century, a collection of radical neoconservatives, planned and executed the attacks after stealing the election in 2000, using the "attacks" as a pretext for wars of economics and geopolitics. These are FACTS, people. Open your eyes and we can save what's left of our country. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.78.28.241 (talk • contribs) . (*sigh*)

Nearly every crime can be looked at from two differing, but equally important facets. First, the investigator will thoroughly examine the evidence, looking for clues in the evidence that may point to the perpetrator. Secondly, the crime must be looked at within the context of which they were committed. Perhaps the most important question regarding September 11th is cuo bono -- who benefits? Anybody that does research beyond the hard-hitting, objective journalism of CNN will come to realize that the sheer number of inconsistencies -- the time of the collapse (significance: recall Newton's third law and the free-fall speed of the collapse), the mysterious collapse of WTC7, the statistic-defying symmmetry of both collapses, numerous reports of secondary-devices (including audio testimony, video interviews, and siesmic graphs), the unwillingness of Administration officials to testify under oath, the initial blocking of an investigation into the collapses, ... -- weighs heavily against the complete official account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.80.32.123 (talk • contribs)

"recall Newton's third law..." Good advice. Tom Harrison 00:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

If this is the case, why hasn't ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, FNC, MSNBC, AP, Reuters, BBC (any one of them), PBS, or ANY newspaper. If this was correct, I'm sure anyone of them would want to break this story, as it would be the biggest story ever. If you know about, I'm sure the people at the Norfolk Times knows, and I'm just curious as to why this hasn't been story 1 since they uncovered it. Its easy to call something fake (audio tapes of bin Laden) when you have already chosen what you beleive. There is already a 9/11 Conspiracy Theory page, I suggest you make use of it's talk page. Squiggyfm 15:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not here to judge the facts, simply to state them. Some of the objections raised by the 'conspiracy' theorists are valid, such as why did the steel girders break in a fire that may have been intense (~1000-1500F) for 20 minutes when steel has a significantly higher melting point than that and is crafted to withstand fire of these temperatures, whether there are insulators present or not. One might argue that few buildings have had airliners crash into them, but the WTC was made to be highly redundent in support and the aluminum/fiber construction of airliners are weak compared to the steel girders of the WTC, how many beams could one airplace possibly take out? Additionally, WTC7 never had an airplane incident and still fell... is this too the result of a fire? No building in the history of steel-framed buildings has ever fallen as a result of just a fire, why suddenly WTC7? Sorry if you feel that I am simply catering to 'conspiracy' theories here, but these remain valid questions. Misplaced Pages was not founded to blindly follow official statements when seeking the facts of the matter. Maintain NPOV, temperate prose, and cite your sources; as long as the evidence stands on its own and spurious claims are withheld (e.g. Bush did it!), I see no reason why facts should be shunned. Did I mention cite your sources? Nhandler 08:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

What facts? Is there any proof of controlled demolition? No, none. These other steel frame structures you speak of, were they hit by wide body jets flying at 500 to almost 600 miles per hour? No, they weren't. As far as WTC7, were any of these other steel frame structures that have never fallen due to fire also near the destabilizing effects of 1 million tons of debris that had fallen up to 1,350 feet? No. There are dozens of web sites postulating the same straw man arguments and not a one of them has any proof of controlled demolition. As stated by Squiggyfm, the press would have a field day if there was evidence of controlled demolition. Furthermore, not all those that did the investigations into this situation were on the federal doll...what purpose would hiding evidence of controlled demolition do for them. This argument has been going on for over 4 years now and I have yet to see one piece of evidence that would prove that the buildings were imploded. It's all just a bunch of innuendo and speculation.--MONGO 09:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Proof or not, WP should still include what people believe. WP should not be he judge but simply state the fact. And the fact is that there are a distinct minority who belive they have the evidence to proove that WTC was demoed. They may be wrong. We are not skilled enough to find out, and if we did it would be original research. But WP should include this information. Didn't Jimbo said something like "we can write about what people believe"?. There are plenty of articles with hypotheses and theories that has not been proved e.g. religious articles, various physic theories etc. --EyesAllMine 12:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

No, we don't write about hypothetical opinions here unless we make it clear that this viewpoint is held by a fringe minority. The fact is this distinct minority has no proof whatsoever....none.--MONGO 12:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe there needs to be a sub-article titled "Conspiracy theories surrounding the September 11, 2001 attacks". --StuffOfInterest 13:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Some more possible names:

• Alternative theories concerning the September 11, 2001 attacks
• Non-mainstream theories concerning the September 11, 2001 attacks
• Creative theories regarding the September 11, 2001 attacks

--StuffOfInterest 14:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You mean like the 9/11 conspiracy theories linked in the infobox? Rmhermen 14:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That works. :) If it doesn't already, perhaps the main article should have a small section on conspiracy theories with a "{{main|}}" reference to send people out to the sub-article. --StuffOfInterest 14:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

No, I think a link in the infobox is more than enough. We shouldn't burry common conspiracy theories, but we shouldn't propagate them either. (And as a long time editor of the conspiracy theories page, I can tell you that that page is one of the hardest to keep NPOV because of the zeal of the theorists.) --Quasipalm 15:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• I think the issue is more that the facts aren't known, so it's a debate with 2 sides presenting their cases, and people are split into believing either side. If you look at both sides, neither can be dismissed. The US Gov provided some interesting facts, like the 9/11 commission report and various reports, and can't be dismissed. On the other hand, the critics have also provided lots of facts, like the fact that it is physically impossible for fuel to burn hot enough to break the steel that was used in the towers, that the hole shown in the picture of the Pentagon before the collapse is simply too small for a jet to fit in, and the nearby windows are still visible and unbroken. The point is that it's a debate, yet this article shows it as if the Gov' story was the facts and the other side was just disgruntled critics, which I think it wrong. It should give the same weight to both sides. Elfguy 20:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

  Split? I'd say there are a few misguided folks that would believe anything the conspiracy theorists are selling. The hole in the buildings is not too small for the planes to "fit into"? No it isn't...the south tower of the WTC had a tear 164 feet long (wingspan 157), none of the reports have stated that the steel needed to melt...it didn't need to...all it needed was to be heavily damaged and heated enough to bend or fatigue it...here are some engineer discussions that have nothing to do with the federal version:

--MONGO 20:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

He was talking about the hole in the Pentagon. But I don't think gasoline-filled aluminum (wings) traveling at several hundred miles and hour would leave much of a dent in solid stone. The wings got sheared off. And as for the pictures of the windows not being damaged around the impact zone of the Pentagon (doesn't really matter since fires were raging all around them), that can be attributed to the fact of that side of the Pentagon had recently been upgraded with "explosion-resistant" glass. And thats what they did, resisted the explosion.Squiggyfm 21:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Unawnsered questions: ] ] Ariev 18:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Experts Claim Official 9/11 Story is a Hoax?

• Experts Claim Official 9/11 Story is a Hoax - Yahoo News

— Preceding unsigned comment added by CaribDigita (talk • contribs) 19:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

This is interesting, but it's not news. It's a press release. They're self-proclaimed experts. They wrote this themselves for distribution. Perhaps their claims are true, but this isn't an actual news piece written by journalists, it's a press release written by the people making these claims talking in the third person. What I find really interesting is that Yahoo News seems to have picked it up as news. --Mr. Billion 04:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Morgan Reynolds, one of the named people in the group has stated that aircrafts had nothing to do with the collapse of the world trade center...the isn't a single expert in this group that knows the first thing about controlled demolition... and here is a discussion of the largest building ever imploded by experts that do implosions for a living. The task of doing controlled demolition on the WTC would have been one of a magnitude several times greater than the largest building every imploded...not to mention the coverup. Company profile and discussion of the world record largest implosion .--MONGO 07:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Go to video google, and type 9/11....the first hit is a one-hour 'all-facts, no nonesense' documentary detailing just how impossible it is that 9/11 occurred as we are now being told it did.

They don't claim to be experts in controlled demolition; they simply show you that there *WERE* multiple explosions level by level and that many of the onlookers said it sounded like and looked like a controlled demolition exercise.

seeking consensus on adding external link

Hey there crusaders. Great, 3 words in and it's already potentially loaded language. *laughs weakly*

just quickly, i haven't read the archived discussions but i have read the article and this page in its entirety. Apologies for those bothered by a topic already covered being brought up again, if that's the case, but having considered that may be the case i think it merits further consideration.

I think that http://st911.org/ should be included as an external link.

I know that many will say that it belongs on the 9/11 conspiracies page, but i think that its content is in the conspiracies page. Adding it as a link recognizes that there is an increasingly divergent opinion about the facts of the tower collapses. Misplaced Pages is great in that its content is factually supported as best as possible (recent study indicated that Misplaced Pages is generally at least as reliable as Encyclopaedia Brittanica on science and nature articles) but also able to incorporate new information. 3 of the papers published by PhDs at the site i'm suggesting respond to the findings of the 9/11 Commission. They report interviews with highly regarded demolition experts, they add additional information about certain events in the lead up to and the follow up of the WTC collapse.

They do have a wide base of skills and experience within their membership, and if there is objection to adding a link to their site on the grounds that some of its content or links it provides are not as well supported as others, then i believe there should be a link from this Misplaced Pages article to at least the same article as linked to from the WTC7 Misplaced Pages entry which is available on the ST911 site.

I am not starting any argument here based on things which I've read, watched, listened to, or considered and i don't feel i need to or that anybody needs to take a contrary 'raving loonie conspiracy' stance. The article would be more complete if the link was included in the External Links section, or if Scholars for 911 truth was hyperlinked when it's mentioned in the article, although that would then have to go to a Wiki about them before linking.Holigopoly 17:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Not a judgment on the validity of the website or the group's arguments, but simply the list of links on September 11, 2001 attacks is already very long, perhaps too long as-is. I think links should go on the most relevant sub-article. In this case, I think the best place for the link is Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11, where Scholars for 9/11 Truth is discussed. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 17:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

SAMs

The second plane, Flight 175, hit at 9:03 and Flight 77 hit the Pentagon at 9:37. Yet in 34 minutes between the two hits, surface-to-air missiles were completely ignored and they had to scramble fighters from miles away to try to intercept Flight 77? I've always wondered about this. Did Washington believe that Flight 77 was somehow different from the others and that it WASN'T going to be a suicide run? Why weren't surface-to-air missiles used to take down Flight 77?--Secret Agent Man 17:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Probably because SAMs are designed to travel short distances. Even the most advanced SAMs used by the US Navy (Standard missile) that we know about maxes out at about 90 nautical miles. The liklihood of having lots of SAMs on the east coast ready to launch during peace time is probably pretty small.

Also, my guess would be that the plan would be to try and incapacitate the plane as a missle, without killing everyone on board. This kind of a mission could only be carried out by manned aircraft.

This is all conjecture of course.  :-) -Quasipalm 18:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Patsw and MONGO POVing this page again

I am not putting in 'scare' quotes. What do you mean by that? When I last asked for request for comment the consensus that came out of it was that terrorist word was undefined and too POV to use it (unless article is quoting USGOV) -- max rspct leave a message 14:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Where was this consensus established, i.e. that the word terrorist was undefined and too POV to use in reference to the 19 highjackers? patsw 14:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Max, come on man. What is the deal with your opposition to the term terrorist. The actions of the hijackers on 9/11 was terrorism...maybe the actions of the U.S. with using the atomic bombs on Japan or bombing Dresden was terrorism too...I don't care about that...we are editing an article about 9/11, not WWII. You just recently got through reverting the Terrorism article in which you reverted back to a version that clearly stated that Terrorism is "outside the bounds of conventional warfare" and the hijackers actions were clearly just that. You don't like the U.S. or whatever, but cease this singling other editors out by name...it is borderline personal attack.--MONGO 14:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism is much abused word and is currently being applied (by USGOV, media and their defenders) in away that is much broader than violence against innocent civilians. We have a big problem if you are going to equate terrorism with unconventional warfare. Also , the WTC attack was an attack on the economy of USA > it was not deliberatly targeted at innocent civilians. When it comes to I don't even have to mention the atomic bombings. What about Gen Wesley Clarke and his bombings of infrastructure and bridges in Serbia (to undermine serbian economy and moral) during the Kosova Conflict - are you going to tell me they were terrorist actions or not? On those hi-tech images of bombs going into those bridges it was clear that civilian traffic was on them and the results were as dramatic and horrific as the sequence of events on 9/11... tho I am sure US TV networks were piching their tents next to those parts of Serbia etc etc that were being bombed. My main concern is the blanket use of that term within this article including the generalising description of Indonesian and Philipino Islamic movements. As for calling someone by their usename ...well what are usernames for if you can't alert people on talkpages...? If you keep making threats against me MONGO (a dishonourable way of trying to put people off editing this page) I will go for arbitration with you about that AND this article. Perhaps you are just overzealous. As for unconventional warfare - don't tell me the USA hasn't engaged in this as you know perfectly well they have. -- max rspct leave a message 18:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

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