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Emilia Carr

Emilia Carr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Individual known for local WP:ONEVENT. ttonyb (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep - OneEvent doesnt apply here. She is the first woman since 1992 to be sentenced in her county, and its the Aileen Wournos connection, she is only the second woman to be on Floridas death row as of now. I could go on and on. Its a keeper for me. It could need some rewrite perhaps as I did it in quite a hurry as I had other business but that can be fixed also. Also local doesnt automaticly means not notable, so that no reason for deletion either.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that she is unique. There's a difference between unique and WP:NOTABLE. NickCT (talk) 20:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

But cant unique also equal notable?. It seems a bit like you ruling out a very mutch so truth that women on death row are really unusual. Also the other factors involved in this particular case.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Also as stated below when doing a simple google search on Emilia Carr you get 583,000 hits so it is a widely publicized case.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course unique can be notable, but unique is not necessarily notable. I have a unique freckle on my rear. I wouldn't call it particularly notable.

Googling (Emilia Carr) will give you any article with the name Emilia and Carr in it. For instance, a page with "Emilia and her best friend Carr went to the park". Obviously not relevant. Google ("Emilia Carr") gives you that exact name and 4,650 hits, but there are a lot of Emilia Carr's out there; hence you get pages with stuff like "Emilia Carr the rodeo clown from China arrived in Tuscon". Again, clearly not relevant. Google ("Emilia Carr" death sentence) - 2,400 hits or ("Heather Strong" "Emilia Carr") - 550 hits for actual relevant hits. It's better to test using Google News or Yahoo News, as those return actual reliable sources. As I said in my comments below, search engine testing makes this topic look barely notable at best. NickCT (talk) 22:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you seriously comparing a freckle to the mentioned case of Emilia Carr. I mean seriously?. Im still not convinced as the number of articles that you are mentioning consists of Emilia Carr material is still enough to point towards notability for this individual.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I will limit myself to commenting here as I am helping to clean up the article per request. ONEEVENT is not a blanket policy for deletion of articles, but a guideline to determine whether an article about the event or the individual(s) involved is more appropriate in the context of notability. Sadly, the execution of a female inmate is more unique than a murder in this case. KimChee (talk) 10:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand a woman being sentenced to death is by media reporting often more notable than a man getting sentenced to death because its mutch more rare that a woman gets to see the inside of death row.--BabbaQ (talk) 11:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• Keep - if it was just about the murder, then I think this may have had to go. However, this article is about a person who has become only the second woman on Florida's death row for the crime, and that, for me, makes it worth keeping. Orphan Wiki 13:04, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep In the circumstances discussed above, she's notable. I don't think this is ca case for changing the title to Murder of ....; given the sentence, it's now Carr who is the more notable DGG ( talk ) 04:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC) DGG ( talk ) 19:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)killing people is notable. DGG ( talk ) 04:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

that last phrase was a partial sentence from a draft, & I did not mean to include it--it is not true unless there is some special reason, which there is here, DGG ( talk ) 19:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Keep Notable enough for inclusion in the Misplaced Pages.--195.84.173.30 (talk) 13:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• Keep. Concur, the notability from the sentence itself trumps ONEEVENT, I think. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
• Keep being a female on death row definitely gives her notability --Errant 14:54, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
• Keep: I agree being a female on death row definitely gives her notability. - Ret.Prof (talk) 03:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Being a female ond eath row is notable, even beyond the crime itself.--VictoriousGastain (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I'm not seeing the notability of this event. There are only two main sources, and they are local media. This person does not appear to have attracted attention beyond the local community. The argument for notability appears to be built entirely on the premise that this person is one of only two females awaiting the death sentence in Florida - but that argument is not provided for within our guidelines, and seems to be one that is being used purely for this discussion. Are we creating a new notability criteria here? And what is the notability exactly? Is the notability that Florida has few females sentenced to death (is that really notable?) or is the person sentenced to death notable? And what would happen if tomorrow 100 women were sentenced to death in Florida? That event in itself might be notable, but what would happen to this individual's notability then? She would be one of over 100 women.... It seems to me that this person committed a crime which did not generate any media interest beyond the local area. That she is one of two females currently on Death Row in Florida is incidental and changeable, and is more reflective of some form of comment on the death penalty in Florida. This is a list of Women Who Have Received The Death Penalty in Florida, which of these would be notable? And would it depend on how many other women were imprisoned at the same time as them? I'm not convinced here. I think this person and Tiffany Cole might be mentioned in footnotes to an article on Florida's Death Row, but I'm not yet convinced they are notable enough in themselves. SilkTork * 12:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

• The subject appears to meet the general notability guideline in regard to its sources. There is no mention in these guidelines about the locality of citations, but I think you do bring up a fair question about this; I encountered a similar query during FA review of another article on capital punishment. Some coverage of Carr's death sentence has been carried by national news organizations, but in searching for biographical information for the article, the best sources have generally been the local media as they have been the ones more interested in the background of the suspects and victim(s) outside of the criminal case itself. KimChee (talk) 22:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

My concern is that I don't think the article does meet GNG. The crime she is imprisoned for is a single event that has attracted no significant attention beyond the local media. GNG has this: "In particular, if reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual." The main claim for this person's notability is not the crime, but that she is one of two women currently on Death Row in Florida. But I am not convinced that such a claim is in itself valid, and I don't see any guideline regarding such a claim. Without some guideline saying that being one of 16 women who have been sentenced to death in Florida is significant, I don't see that our current guidelines support this article. That she is currently one of two is a tenuous claim to notability as that number can change at any point - and as notability is not temporary I don't quite understand why a temporary situation out of her or our control is a sign of notability. My point being that if the notability is dependent on there being only one other woman on Death Row in Florida, and then that number changes, then the claim to notability will have shifted. If she was the first woman sentenced to death, that would be notable, or the last woman executed before the law changed, etc. There are circumstances which would ALWAYS be true. Being one of two at this moment in time doesn't appear to me to be highly significant. So, given that she doesn't meet GNG, specifically WP:NTEMP, and doesn't meet WP:BLP1E / WP:ONEVENT, and various aspects in WP:EVENT including WP:GEOSCOPE, then I am genuinely struggling to see what people are a)seeing as notable in this article and b)where the guidelines are regarding such notability. The more I look at this the more I am seeing that our guidelines are written to disallow such articles. SilkTork * 16:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, but the fact remains that me and eight other users here thinks that her being one of few females on death row is giving this article notability. Also as KimChee says and I agree the subject is within the general notability guidelines for inclusion. Also local story/person doesnt automaticly means non-notable. I know that many people are against these kind of articles but it doesnt change the fact that murder is notable in many occasions. It also does pass ONEEVENT per sentencing, woman on death row, aileen wournos connection etc etc.. --BabbaQ (talk) 12:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that several people have made a comment such that being a woman sentenced to death is notable, and that is the key to this debate. My concern is that I don't see a guideline which says that such a situation is acceptable as a rationale for notability, while I see several guidelines which indicate that this sort of article is not notable. Our guidelines do reflect consensus, and if there is a general consensus that a female being sentenced to death is notable, then we should write that into our guidelines. If we had such a statement then we wouldn't have the situation of this AfD. What is the Aileen Wuornos connection? SilkTork * 16:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• I have asked a question related to this AfD at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Is a woman who is sentenced to death in the USA notable? SilkTork * 16:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Delete - Sorry, WP:ONEEVENT to a T. Keepers that are making vague hand-waves at some sort of "being a woman on death row is notable" assertion without actually showing that that is a notable exception are at best unhelpful, at worst disingenuous. Wournos was notable for being a female serial killer, a true rarity supported by reliable sources. Tarc (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable, ONEEVENT at its clearest. In the U.S., mere death sentence doesn't convey notability, even on a woman; no comparison to Wuornos (a genuine controversy). --Orange Mike | Talk 17:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - Sorry but have to disagree with you both. Females on death row are a rarety. Just look at Florida, Carr is only the second at this time in the Women part of the death row. Carr definitly makes WP:ONEEVENT by far as a user said above... only her sentence in itself trumps WP:ONEEVENT. I still say Keep-.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

And we cant compare Aileen Wournos and Emilia Carr.. its like comparing apples and oranges. However the fact that Carr is the first woman from the same county as Wournos to be sentenced since the day Wournos was sentenced in 1992 is notable. And as I stated before a local story doesnt equal non notable.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

What it amounts to is trivia, a semi-interesting factoid that the media can mention as they cover this story. Being rare or unusual does not qualify automatically one for notability. Tarc (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I have to differ. Those factors in fact makes this article notable. Beyond the crime itself even. When including sentencing to death, being a female, the aileen wournos connection then we definitly have a Keeper.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Keep SilkTork's reasoning about WP:NTEMP is logically faulty. If, at some time in the future, thousands of women are executed in Florida, it will not hinder the fact that there was a time when it was a rarity, and therefore, articles about such exceptional and (and by then) historical cases would be notable in a future wikipedia. victor falk 17:57, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
• Keep: sufficiently notable for inclusion.--Milowent • 19:32, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I was asked to explain my keep opinion above, as I was admittedly rather minimal in giving the reasoning. The sentence is what makes for the particular notability in this case. I would be prepared to argue that any actual execution in the US at this time is a major event, part of the historical record, and makes for notability. This does not apply: her sentence has not yet been carried out, and I hope will not be, for there were none of the horrific circumstances that affect even those who oppose the death penalty; even if it is, it will, by the usual US appeals process, not be carried out for many years. The execution or proposed execution of a person in one of the protected groups in society, such a people who are still children, or those of low intelligence, is publicly considered a matter of special concern--it arouses a sense of unfairness even among those who support the death penalty. I think to the public, women are still one of these groups--whether this is still reasonable is not our concern. But the article is written disproportionately: the emphasis should not be on the details of the crime, but on the trial and sentencing. If there were only the choice between the present article and none, I would say none, on the principle that we are not a tabloid, a principle I have always endorsed. But editing to make a suitable article is possible, and a properly edited article would be appropriate. The attention here will be enough to ensure it is carried out. I don't work on crime topics usually, but if no one else does the necessary, I shall. DGG ( talk ) 19:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Good response. And your concern can be fixed via editing so no major problem there. Thanks for explaining your stance more.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Weak Delete - Yahoo News search for "Emilia Carr" - 8 results, Google News for "Emilia Carr" - 2 results. Judging by search engine test alone, it seems like really really borderline notability here. NickCT (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand a overall Google search on Emilia Carr gave 583,000 hits. That tells me that Emilia Carrs case and her as a person has been widely published.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I also have to question if Yahoo News search engine is reliable as it is obviously wrong. With that many hits as Emilia Carr gets on a regular Google search something is wrong.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment – There are only 429 GHits and 2 GNEWS hits. One should use quotes to remove the individual word hits and to focus on the combined phrase/name. Also, please note the initial Google numbers are notoriously incorrect and one must go to the last page for the correct counts. ttonyb (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand. But it doesnt change the fact that when searching for Emilia Carr on the regular Google you find alot more than 2 news stories on it. Cheers.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment &ndash: Huh? There are two and only two news articles that show up for "Emilia Carr" on Google. See . ttonyb (talk) 22:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• If you click on archives in the Google news search, you will find that media coverage of this case dates back to 2009. KimChee (talk) 22:38, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Comment – You are absolutely correct, the number jumps to 11 or so. Thanks for pointing that out. ttonyb (talk) 22:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• @BabbaQ - You're testing incorrectly. Read my comment above. NickCT (talk) 22:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Im not convinced. Sorry.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't be sorry. In cases like this notability will be quite subjective. I see it one way, you see it another. That's all. I would point out however, that you did create this article, so it's somewhat unlikely you're going find my arguments convincing, regardless of how much logic they might have behind them. NickCT (talk) 23:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Delete -- the county is merely trivia -- one of two women is a current event that is likely to change at any moment. Perhaps a small mention of her in the Aileen Wournos article, or in the county article in a future section about overly aggressive use of the death penalty, or even a sentence or two in an article about the death penalty in Florida. But it's not significant to the US or the world, and nothing in the article asserts notability to the US or the world.
  --William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:57, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Local doesnt equal non-notable. Also where do you get the information from that its likely to change at any moment? That sounds more like a personal believe or speculation than actual facts. The other woman sentenced was sentenced years ago. And as someone above here stated and I quote: If, at some time in the future, thousands of women are executed in Florida, it will not hinder the fact that there was a time when it was a rarity, and therefore, articles about such exceptional and (and by then) historical cases would be notable in a future wikipedia. We cant delete on an assumption or pure speculation of future events that might not even be happening and will not effect the notability anyway. One thing however that isnt an assumption or pure speculation is that females on death row are rare in the present time and in Florida as stated only two women are on death row, Emilia Carr is in fact notable. Peace out.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• Weak Delete - I'm inclined to agree that WP:BLP1E and WP:PERP apply here. She doesn't seem sufficiently notable to pass our inclusion guidelines. Several of the comments above say things along the lines of 'she's notable for being a woman sentenced to death' - but I'm not convinced that women on death row are so uncommon that that automatically justifies an article for every single one. This report states that there were 61 women on death row in January 2010; I don't think we need an article on each of them, if their sentence is the only 'notable' thing about them. Robofish (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

  (As an aside: I was invited to comment on this discussion by User:BabbaQ. (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Robofish&diff=cur]) Robofish (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

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