Misplaced Pages

:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Arbitration | Requests Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 07:43, 18 March 2011 editVolunteer Marek (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers94,127 edits →Comment by Volunteer Marek← Previous edit Revision as of 09:40, 18 March 2011 edit undoZjarriRrethues (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,995 edits →Statement by ZjarriRrethuesNext edit →
Line 796: Line 796:


====Statement by ZjarriRrethues==== ====Statement by ZjarriRrethues====
*I don't see any violation of any policy by any of my edits. I have written many good articles, some of which are related to WikiProject Greece and they were featured on DYK. I've written DYK content that is related to WikiProject Greece, while the user who reported me has been following my edits since the time I signed up to wikipedia and making constant reports regarding me.
*My contributions to Greece-related articles include:
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]
#]



*I received an interaction ban in the past because I reported Athenean i.e my ban wasn't edit-related. Athenean has reported me twice to SPI, some other times to admins and now to AE. All the reports contain phrases like the ''spiting Greek users'' one and many attributions of nationalist motives to me. If I was a nationalist I wouldn't refute sources that say that Albanians became emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD(i.e prove the existence of a concrete Albanian ethnic identity), while they were first attested in the 11th century AD in historical records. What kind of nationalist wouldn't want to prove that his nation is half a millenium older?



*Athenean says that my article ] is highly POV(although it did pass the DYK review by a much more experienced user with 31k edits), so the verdict on the article's ''pov'' is on that and if someone wants to add that it's a nationalist or any other kind of organization he should add it. Btw Athenean saying that the article is ''solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users'' is excessively inappropriate. I wrote the ] and I also wrote ]. Does the ] article also show that grossly negative intention that is being attributed to me constantly by Athenean?


*Regarding the ] issue I made a mistake that I couldn't predict because the google search result doesn't show the whole quote . Of course after it was proven that I was mistaken I accepted it. I only quoted Sakellariou in order to not quote a ] and yes I have many times said that he is a nationalist source because that is how other scholars label his works [http://books.google.com/books?id=ZmesOn_HhfEC&pg=PA32&dq=Sakellariou+%2B++nationalist&hl=en&ei=pRaDTZeRC4ns4AbI28StCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=nationalist%20Sakellariou&f=false
]

*Regarding the ], which Athenean labels as an ''excellent example of source fraud'': This is the quote from the source and this is my edit , which is a precise quote from the work, so the verdict is on the comparison. Regarding the ] a Greek user claimed that one of the sources shouldn't be used because it was connected with the Communist resistance groups and I accepted it, however the part that isn't related to that is undisputed and other Greek users accepted it .

*Regarding ]: This is entirely ] because the edits I made use as sources also Greek authors and there's no misuse .

*Regarding the ] isn't ] when Athenean the creator of the articles wrote sentences like ''The death sent shockwaves through the ethnic Greek community of Albania'' of course I added such tags. In Himarë one of the sources that I removed as offline then was indeed offline since you had to buy the book to verify it and it didn't even have snippet view option, while the source that among others says that there were Albanian emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD is unreliable and fringe since Albanians were attested for the first time many centuries later. If I was an Albanian nationalism pov-pushing user, why would I support its unreliability instead of using it to prove the existence of an Albanian identity many centuries before the current wikipedia version?

*Regarding the Zeta valley issue deductions like ''that implies automatically...'' are ] i.e Athenean should find a source that says ''ancient Greek tribes lived in northern Albania along the Shkoder lake opposite to the Zeta valley, instead of assuming that ''it is automatically implied...''

*] was for some centuries an important city of the Chaonians, but in the 3rd century AD it was conquered by Rome and it became a Roman city and remained such until the end of its existence in the 6th century AD. Would you label as an ''ancient Greek city'' a settlement that belonged to such tribes from the 5th to 3rd century and for the next 700-800 years it belonged to the Roman and after the 4th century AD to the Eastern Roman Empire?

*Regarding the ]: Was the Byzantine Empire a predominantly Greek-speaking empire(similar to saying Was the Roman Empire a predominantly Latin-speaking Empire?)? It wasn't a predominantly Greek-speaking Empire, because although coine Greek became official at some point the native language of the majority of its citizens wasn't coine Greek. Btw that didn't even have a source, so of course it was ].

*Regarding ] it's a word that entered Albanian dictionary via Ottoman Turkish, which acquired from Arabic i.e not ''via'' Arabic but via Turkish.

*Regarding my comments about Turkey-related articles Athenean says that I ''expressed an intention for Turkish pov-pushing'', which I didn't express.

*When some users ] any kind of argument, it's obvious that you have to start RfCs, ask admin intervention, go to relevant boards i.e that's not attempt to intimidate other users as Athenean says.


====Comments by others about the request concerning ZjarriRrethues ==== ====Comments by others about the request concerning ZjarriRrethues ====

Revision as of 09:40, 18 March 2011

"WP:AE" redirects here. For the automated editing program, see Misplaced Pages:AutoEd.
Noticeboards
Misplaced Pages's centralized discussion, request, and help venues. For a listing of ongoing discussions and current requests, see the dashboard. For a related set of forums which do not function as noticeboards see formal review processes.
General
Articles,
content
Page handling
User conduct
Other
Category:Misplaced Pages noticeboards
    Shortcut

    Click here to add a new enforcement request
    For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
    See also: Logged AE sanctions

    Important informationShortcuts

    Please use this page only to:

    • request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
    • request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
    • request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
    • appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

    For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

    Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

    To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

    Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

    The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

    All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

    The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

    1. ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
    2. request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
    3. submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

    Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

    A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

    Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

    An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

    • The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or
    • The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
      • the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
      • the restriction was an indefinite block.

    A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

    • a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
    • a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
    • a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

    Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

    Standard of review
    On community review

    Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

    1. the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
    2. the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
    3. the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.
    On Arbitration Committee review

    Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

    1. the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
    2. the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
    3. compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.
    1. The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
    2. This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.
    Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

    The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

    Appeals by sanctioned editors

    Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

    1. ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
    2. request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
    3. submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-en@wikimedia.org).
    Modifications by administrators

    No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

    1. the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
    2. prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

    Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

    Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

    Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

    Important notes:

    1. For a request to succeed, either
    (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or
    (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA
    is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.
    2. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
    3. These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
    4. All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.
    Information for administrators processing requests

    Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

    A couple of reminders:

    • Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
    • When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
    • Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
    • More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

    Closing a thread:

    • Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
    • Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
    • You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
    • Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

    Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

    Arbitration enforcement archives
    1234567891011121314151617181920
    2122232425262728293031323334353637383940
    4142434445464748495051525354555657585960
    6162636465666768697071727374757677787980
    81828384858687888990919293949596979899100
    101102103104105106107108109110111112113114115116117118119120
    121122123124125126127128129130131132133134135136137138139140
    141142143144145146147148149150151152153154155156157158159160
    161162163164165166167168169170171172173174175176177178179180
    181182183184185186187188189190191192193194195196197198199200
    201202203204205206207208209210211212213214215216217218219220
    221222223224225226227228229230231232233234235236237238239240
    241242243244245246247248249250251252253254255256257258259260
    261262263264265266267268269270271272273274275276277278279280
    281282283284285286287288289290291292293294295296297298299300
    301302303304305306307308309310311312313314315316317318319320
    321322323324325326327328329330331332333334335336337338339340
    341342343344345346347

    Doktorbuk

    No action taken.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Doktorbuk

    User requesting enforcement
    O Fenian (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Doktorbuk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Revert 1
    2. Revert 2, within 24 hours of the first breaching the 1RR restriction
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by Mo ainm (talk · contribs)
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Block
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    I have attempted to discuss the matter at Talk:Belfast West by-election, 2011 and received no reply there, despite offering a compromise that took the other editor's point into consideration. I asked the editor to self-revert to avoid this report, and received the simple answer of "No". Any edits relating to Gerry Adams come under the Troubles restriction. O Fenian (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Doktorbuk

    Statement by Doktorbuk

    The paragraph in question is below -

    "Notwithstanding Gerry Adams' public statement rejecting his new position, the Parliamentary authorities in Westminster have removed him from the list of MPs and the seat of Belfast West is now considered vacant."

    This breaks down into these parts -

    • As it is not possible to resign from the House of Commons (Resignation from the British House of Commons), Gerry Adams' letter to the Speaker of the House was not, in and of itself, enough to satisfy the House authorities that he had resigned. It needed more than just this letter, such are the rules.
    • Therefore, to ensure that, for all editors and readers of this article, Misplaced Pages gave a clear overview of the situation, I wrote the above paragraph, which has been untouched since being written until the events of the past two days.
    • The paragraph outlines, with evidence and sources, that the House of Commons authorities do not consider Mr Adams to be an Member of the House, and Belfast West is a vacant constituency,
    • As I have said to User:Mo ainm tonight, I had no idea, at all, of the community guidelines relating to The Troubles. I have not edited, as far as I can remember, any subject matter related to The Troubles in my time as a Misplaced Pages editor. Indeed I have edited parliamentary constituency articles for seats in and outside Northern Ireland without ever being made aware of these rules.
    • I contend that my paragraph does not break rules or guidelines. It is not "private research" in the way I understand Misplaced Pages defines this charge.
    • I contend that my paragraph is enough for both casual and expert readers to understand the context of Mr Adams' resignation
    • I do not feel it is necessary to place my edit into the arena of an enforcement ruling. I have been an editor for many years, and this is the first time I have ever been subject to such a charge, which has taken me by some surprise.

    I respect the decision of those involved in deciding the outcome of this case.


    doktorb words 18:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

    Additional Edit 12/03 The article Belfast West by-election, 2011 has been copy-edited by another editor, not connected to either party in this case. The offending paragraph has been removed. I consider this Request to be no longer necessary. doktorb words 01:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Doktorbuk

    • Quite frankly there is the question that arbitration regs don't apply here. Apart from the ex-MP for the constituency being heavily involved in the Troubles, the page has nothing to do with the Troubles at all so the restrictions shouldn't apply. The page in question was regarding an upcoming British parliamentary contituency election which has nothing to do with any of the restiction requirements. Or is it that every page that even mentions gerry adams has to be subject to the regulations? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Doktorbuk

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case, the 1RR restriction looks like a community-imposed restriction and not an Arbitration Committee-imposed one. It is at any rate not clear that this 1RR restriction has at any time been imposed by a vote of the Arbitration Committee or by a person acting under its delegated authority. I am therefore of the opinion that it cannot be enforced in this venue or with AE authority. (There might have been a request for clarification about this, but I no longer remember).  Sandstein  14:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    As a purely practical matter, I am not sure where else one would go to request enforcement of a community-imposed sanction. AN/I is unlikely to give the focused and structured discussion called for in such cases; the Climate change board was ... a fiasco; the Obama and Palin boards are moribund; the British Isles board was active when last I checked, but is focused on editing issues (and is hardly a model for that). I think that spinning out a multiplicity of special-purpose boards is not the way to go here.
    Moving on to the matter at hand, I am inclined to decline this report anyway. The issue at hand seems amenable to ordinary discussion, and intervening would appear to be counterproductive even were it clear that this board could do so. - 2/0 (cont.) 17:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    • The community has not been logging its agreed-to 1RR restrictions in any central place. Maybe a new section at the bottom of WP:RESTRICT should be added. I agree with Sandstein that the 1RR we are speaking of is from the community and was not imposed by Arbcom itself. Doktorbuk can't be sanctioned per this noticeboard for a 1RR violation. If the matter were serious, the Troubles remedy known as 'Probation' might be applied to Doktorbuk, but it seems too early for that. Probation puts the editor under 1RR/week on Troubles articles. This request should be closed with no action against Doktorbuk. For more technicalities, see . Arbcom did not accept Elonka's proposed amendment to allow discretionary sanctions and it did not add its own endorsement to the community's 1RR restriction. EdJohnston (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    We went through this back in 2009, and the Committee then saw no problem with using AE for Community Sanction enforcement. (I should know, I brought the arbcom request.) Now that I'm the other side of the issue, I still agree with them that it's fine to use this. SirFozzie (talk) 02:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Thanks for the information. Maybe that could be clarified somehow on the case page? The way the sanction is presented there is pretty nonstandard, with much unsigned commentary and so on.  Sandstein  06:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    • OK, we can address the matter here as a violation of the community sanction. It is an actual 1RR violation. The article has been edited since, and the paragraph by Doktorbuk has been removed. He indicates above that he will not restore it. As a community sanction case, I recommend this be closed with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 03:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Jacurek

    Jacurek, Volunteer Marek, Dr. Dan and Lokyz are sanctioned as described in this thread; M.K is warned.  Sandstein  06:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Jacurek

    User requesting enforcement
    Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Jacurek, who has a long history of disruption and sanctions relating to eastern European topics, after coming back from a ban, has focussed his editing almost entirely on lame edit-warring over the inclusion of Polish, German or Lithuanian geographical terms in the leads of various articles.

    He also made the obvious WP:POINT move of removing the German name from Gdansk , explicitly in retaliation, and in blatant breach of the long-standing Gdansk rules.

    More edit-warring just under 3RR elsewhere: on Ukrainische_Hilfspolizei,

    One thing that's troubling is that the same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days are still showing up together on the same articles regularly in many of these cases.

    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    not applicable, has long history of Digwuren and EEML sanctions

    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    renewed revert restriction at the least, preferably full topic ban from geographical naming issues, or full ban
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    I would take action myself here, as I have done before, if not for the fact that in one of the contentious naming issues cited above I gave my own editorial opinion earlier. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Re. to Piotrus' comment below: asking "who gave me the diffs" is a pretty serious assumption of bad faith all by itself. I'm perfectly able to collect diffs myself. I saw something light up on Jacurek's talkpage (which happened to be still on my watchlist from time immemorial), and out of curiousity took a look at what he had been up to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Jacurek

    Statement by Jacurek

    Recently, I focused my work on adding missing alternative names to the articles related to shared Lithuanian, Polish, Jewish, Belorussian or Ukrainian history and heritage following general naming policy . I have beed editing without violating any standards of behaviour and in line with normal editorial process. All my edits/reverts presented here are spread out over time, discussed by me , , , , or in line with discussion I followed and ALL are supported by the WP:NCGN. I stated in my edit summaries why I'm doing such edits and the polices I followed

    I was adding alternative names in various languages:

    • German names to Polish places:

    • Polish names to Belorussian places:

    • Yiddish, Belorussian, Ethnic Kashubian and Ukrainian names to Polish places:

    • Polish, Yiddish and Russian names to Ukrainian places:

    • Lithuanian names to Polish places:

    • Latvian, Belorussian, Russian to Lithianian palces:

    • ...and finally Polish names to the Lithuanian places:

    Here however, all my edits were immediately reverted by Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) and Lokyz (talk · contribs)) I was called Dyslexic , amusing, a troll , a nationalistic troll chauvinist playing games etc. Disrespect, taunting and incivility was also directed at other people by mentioned editors: ex-admin RPG player is trying to make a project of Misplaced Pages a playground of his own Please note that one was warned by administrator because of these incivil remarks and another complained about .

    Here are just few diff's as an examples of the name removals by mentioned editors:


    • As far as removing a German name from the lead of the Gdansk article I reverted my own edits ] ] from December in line with this discussion and linked this talk page in my edit summary . This edit was NOT to make any point.
    • As far as IP sock: - this is not me and I wonder why FP can so easily and without any proof accuse people of using socks?


    Why was I singled out and accused of violating the polices by Future Perfect at Sunrise? EXACTLY the same report could have been filed by him on user Dr. Dan (talk · contribs), M.K (talk · contribs) or Lokyz (talk · contribs):


    The bottom line is that I was following normal editorial process, watching revert count limitations and all my edits were supported by the WP:NCGN. We really have an opportunity now to resolve ongoing problem of removal by some Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles related to the Polish-Lithuanian heritage and reach the agreement thanks to discussion here . I echo this comment %100. Please Sandstain, look outside the AE box this only time and the problem will gone.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


    MISSED FROM MY GDANSK SECTION-PLEASE ADD - please do not classify me together with editors who remove one language names for nationalistic reasons. I was editing names in various languages (German, Polish, Russian, Lithuanian, Yiddish, Latvian, Latvian and Byelorussian) - Refer to my edit history. - (adding German) then correcting to follow standards --Jacurek (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Thanks for correcting--Jacurek (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Third opinion of an uninvolved administrator

    As per permission of the reviewing administrators third opinion has been requested Thank you all for patience.--Jacurek (talk) 02:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Jacurek

    Comment by Volunteer Marek

    There's an ongoing discussion about the proper way of handling alternative names here . The underlying problem is complete disregard for naming policy on the part of Dr. Dan/Lokyz/MK. This is compounded by the fact that there is some confusion over what the actual policy is. Hence the discussion.

    Jacurek's edits at Gdansk where a response - and in line with - to the discussion as it was occurring at Naming conventions (the diff above), with comments provided by a third opinion (which I requested) at Vilnius university , and are in agreement with views expressed by such individuals like User:Novickas and User:Deacon of Pndapetzim who are about as far as humanely and even super-humanely possible from being "same old cliques and tag-teams known from the WP:EEML days." As such Jacurek's edits are part of the standard BRD cycle, are not edit warring, and none of them are in any way a breach of policy.

    Throughout Jacurek has remained calm and civil despite several provocations. In particular, Dr. Dan has made several personal attacks against various users:

    • Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
    • Dr. Dan calling editors "nationalist trolls"
    • Dr. Dan taunting Piotrus, shortly after coming off an interaction ban with him: ("It's nice to have you back editing after your sabbatical. It must have been an unpleasant experience. ")
    • Dr. Dan implies that editors are "nationalistic, chauvinistic"

    At the naming conventions discussion Deacon of Pndapetzim, who I think can fairly be characterized as an "opponent" of people who used to be on the Eastern European mailing list has stated: Without wishing to offend anyone, my experience of other language names in leads is that they function in practice as nationalist scent markings. Jacurek's edits were completely in line with this sentiment.

    Additionally Deacon stated, in reference to inclusion of German names in ledes of articles on Polish places: Can't say I approve of most of those edits. - again, in line with Jacurek's above edits.

    Likewise, Deacon said: in those cases this should be in the main text with citations not just in brackets at the lead, where it looks like simple nationalist scent-marking and is thus provocative.

    At Vilnius University, user Novickas, who can also be seen as usually on the other side of the issue stated: Yes, I think all articles ought to follow WP:Lead, which emphasizes concision and readability, but leaves room for an entity's multiple names by way of a dedicated name section. - again in reference to the inclusion of German names in Polish places.

    As such Jacurek's edits are not in any way a way of making a POINT but rather a response to what people are saying the policy is.

    Did I mention that none of Jacurek's edits in any way violated any kind of policy what so ever?

    Finally, let me point out that a discussion on the subject is actually ongoing and amazingly, for like the first time in a long while it is actually civil, calm and is even starting to look productive, people who previously have very strongly disagreed with each other in the past might actually be able to work something out and about the last freakin thing that is going to help here is a completely pointless and baseless AE report such as this one which good money says will do nothing but attract the usual infighting, bickering and sniping.

    What is the point of this AE report? How is it not counter productive? Why do you find it necessary to sabotage a potentially productive discussion?Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Sandstein's suggestion and Ed Johnston

    You can't judge/sanction editors based on whether they're "engaged in a campaign of mass removal or mass addition" if the editor involved is following established naming guidelines. For comparison look at User:HerkusMonte's edits (and I wish to be 100% clear that this is no way a criticism of Herkus), particularly all the edits with the edit summary "lang-de" which in the recent past have comprised the majority of Herkus' editing on Misplaced Pages. Jacurek's edits are no different than Herkus' and neither editor did anything wrong. The only difference is that when Herkus "engages in his campaign of mass addition" he IS NOT immediately reverted by tag teams of Polish editors who also refuse to discuss the issue meaningfully and some of whom engage in personal attacks - but this does happen with addition of Polish names to places with shared Polish and Lithuanian history. Unlike Jacurek, Herkus is left alone, because he is more or less following current naming policy (again, if that is the appropriate policy is another question) - just like Jacurek was.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    We're not examining mass additions or removals per se, but edit wars. Whether the reverts conform with any naming policy or guideline is irrelevant for the purpose of this request, because the edit-warring policy does not exempt such reverts.  Sandstein  18:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    I understand perfectly well that AE is not about judging compliance of edits with the naming policy. However it is also the case that in one instance you get edit wars because a group of editors does not wish to comply with naming policy, whereas in the other case - which involves exactly the same kinds of edits - you don't get edit wars because, well, because the editors on both sides are more reasonable and have no problem with following policy. As such, punishing Jacurek in this case, even if he reverted others is tantamount to rewarding the battleground behavior of those who purposefully ignore this naming policy. If the purpose of this board is to prevent conflicts from continuing in this area then encouraging this kind of behavior is obviously not the way to further that goal. A bit of common sense is needed here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to this "list" business Uhh, not sure what this list is supposed to be or what it is supposed to accomplish (in fact, it's a bad idea to begin with) but for what it's worth:

    1. I've never edited St. Anne's Church, Vilnius or Cathedral Square, Vilnius.
    2. I made one edit to Suvalkija back in August (so 5+ months ago) after Lokyz removed the name with an edit summary that made no sense, but I didn't make any further edits even after he blind reverted me literally within minutes (, , ) (btw, please note that "Suvalkų kraštas", the Lithuanian term, has been in the article on the Suwałki Region for something like 3 years straight and no Polish editor ever tried to remove it - which is quite telling when you compare it to the situation at Suvalkija).
    3. On Vilnius University, after observing the blind reverts by Lokyz , , I started a discussion on talk on March 5th without making any edits myself. Please note that Lokyz's edit summary justification for his revert was: PLease use talk page before starting edit war. (on an edit war he started) - however, once I started a discussion on talk he didn't even bother to reply or actually discuss. Hence, four days later on March 9th, I made the change to the article - this was my single edit to the article. Of course it got reverted within minutes (again - well, actually this time it took him two hours) . At that point I requested a third opinion , still not making any edits to the article myself. Novickas at this time edited the article by expanding the names section which is fine with me. Note the pattern here: Lokyz, Dr. Dan and MK blind revert, while at the same time admonishing users to "discuss on talk" or claiming that there is "no consensus" yet, they then don't even bother discussing things when a discussion is initiated. If they do discuss the discussion is very quickly derailed by irrelevant strawmen (like discussion of whether the article on cat should have the Polish "kot" in it , even though no one has ever proposed that - you can also ask Kotniski about how productive these "discussions" tend to be and why that is).
    4. On Bernardine Cemetery I was also the one who initiated the discussion on talk in the first place, way back in October (though note previous personal attacks by Lokyz, who calls Jacurek dyslexic and says "Dyslexic people are amusing" which is extremely offensive in its own right, no matter who it is directed at). Jacurek likewise tried to engage in good faithed discussion (note also Dr. Dan's mocking of Kotniski in response to with the "Er,..." parody of Kotniski's statement - seriously how is meaningful discussion possible in such circumstances?). Since the talk page consensus appeared to be for the inclusion of the name, and since Lokyz and Dr.Dan ceased participating in the discussion, I made one edit to the article restoring the name (my edits in November where just a standard expansion of the article) on March 7th, or three months after I initiated discussion). The edit was again reverted within minutes by Lokyz with an edit summary in which he purposefully used my previous name (in what I took to be a form of harassment), despite the fact that I had previously asked him specifically not to do that and to which he agreed. I made no further edits to the article after that but instead brought the matter to talk again. Here's the sad/ironic thing - recently through a joint Polish-Lithuanian effort the cemetery was restored as a symbol of Polish-Lithuanian friendship and joint history, and the Lithuanian government funded a sign with the Polish name at the entrance to the cemetery - since generally public signs written in Polish are banned in Lithuania this was a "big deal". But apparantly, some editors are more nationalistic than the Lithuanian government.
    5. On Gdansk I made a single edit because the article already has a section which discusses the name in much detail and I was just being told by Novickas and Deacon that policy says that in such cases there's no need for a separate inclusion of the name in the lede. I did not edit war here and don't even try to freakin' pretend that I did. This is total nonsense.

    Bottom line: I made one edit at Suvalkija long time ago which was reverted within minutes and I made no subsequent edits. I made one edit at Vilnius University and when it was reverted, within less than three hours, asked for third opinion. At Bernardine Cemetery I initiated discussion on talk and only after it seemed like an agreement was reached for inclusion, and having given it enough time (3 months) did I make one edit and add the name. This too was reverted within minutes and I didn't edit the article any further. I think the picture that emerges here is crystal clear.

    I also got to ask why you are limiting this to just these articles? MK regularly edit wars with Belorussians editors over similar matters . Herkus adds German names to Polish places all the time - but never gets reverted because Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy. Why isn't that relevant?Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    The list is currently limited to the articles named in the request and the editors who have been making language-related reverts on them. If there are similar problems with other articles or other editors, I recommend that you make a separate AE request about them. If the same editors have also made similar reverts in other articles, or other editors have made similar reverts in the same articles, you can mention them here so that we may consider including them in the list. I should note that I think that your comment above, "Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy", is extremely problematic, as it indicates nationalist prejudice on your part, and I will take it into account in the decision.  Sandstein  21:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Oh for Christ sake! My comment that "Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy" obviously is in reference to the editors involved in this request - Lokyz, MK and Dr.Dan and then Jacurek and myself. There's no prejudice in it and it is factually verifiable as noted above. The whole request is about the fact that Lokyz, MK and DD have been purposefully ignoring naming policy. Why am I getting the sense that you are purposefully looking for any kind of excuse to railroad me into a sanction? First you put me in that little list of yours for no reason, and now you come up with this nonsense.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    I can see that the choice of words wasn't the best one and what I should have said was that "because I follow naming policy, unlike Dr. Dan, MK and Lokyz". Apologies. However, my temper at the moment is running extremely high because of the ridiculous insinuations that you (Sandstein) are making against me and the waste of my time that you are forcing me into - I just wasted an hour and a half of my life writing a response, instead of doing real life work, spending time with my kid, or even working on some Misplaced Pages article. As a result I wrote quickly and unclearly. I'm striking it above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Thank you for this clarification, which I accept on a good faith basis. You must be extremely careful what you write, because statements that vilipend whole groups of editors on the basis of their nationality are completely unacceptable, especially in a WP:DIGWUREN context, and if you repeat such statements you may be sanctioned for them without further warning. I normally assume that people mean exactly what they write.  Sandstein  23:16, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    And if you want to see a previous discussion which is relevant here which says the same thing look here and here . Why not go after Kotniski here too? Why not include him in the "list"?Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    These diffs do not show that Kotniski added or removed languages to the articles at issue here. They cannot therefore be included in the list.  Sandstein  22:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    The diffs are not presented to show that Kotniski added or removed languages, but rather as a response to your threat to "take it (my hastily written statement) into account in the decision." Please address the relevant point, not a completely different point.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    This is completly wrong: Edit-warring to add or remove a language from any one article does not necessarily reflect bias, as there may be policy-based grounds for such reverts (even if these do not excuse edit-warring). But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds, since the guideline makes reference to the use of names in English-language literature, which differs from topic to topic. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias ahead of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV and, consequently, grounds for sanctions.

    Specifically: But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds - no, but it can be explained by the fact that editors will add the language which they are familiar with to a topic which they are familiar with. I'd happily add relevant names to articles on Fiji but I have no idea what these may be. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias - no, it can be explained by the fact that editors edit topics they are familiar with. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV - since when is AE in the business of adjudicating content disputes, which is what WP:NPOV involves? To quote Sandstein himself: compliance with this guideline is a content issue, because it requires editorial judgment, and cannot therefore be reviewed in an arbitration context.

    The above statement appears to be nothing but an attempt to find a flimsy excuse to sanction people who did nothing wrong. It is railroading plain and simple.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Add in light of Sandstein's insinuation of "nationalist editing I should also add that in the past I have

    1. defended User:HerkusMonte's addition of German names to Polish articles (within reason) (placeholder for diff here - gimme time to find it, wasting more of my time), and have done so recently at the naming conventions discussion and elsewhere. I've generally have had an amicable relationship with Herkus (at least I think so) so why not ask HIM if he regards my revert of him as good faithed or as sanction-worthy? He's certainly not the person who brought this whole mess to AE. If he's not complaining why are YOU including it here?
    2. Added Yiddish names to Poland and Lithuania related articles
    3. Added Lithuanian names to Polish related articles.

    Thus, Sandstein's charge/insinuation of "nationalist bias" is highly inflammatory, insulting, and essentially a personal attack. None of the provided diffs substantiate it and it is exactly the kind of statement that he himself regularly tries to sanction other editors for. Since the same rules apply to Sandstein in this respect as they do to other editors, I ask him to strike that portion of his statement.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Declined. Whether your edits (like those of the other editors) reflect nationalist bias is a matter under investigation in this request. My concern in this respect, above, was accompanied by a relevant diff. If you disagree with the eventual outcome of the request you can appeal against it. Assumptions of bad faith are unlikely to help your case.  Sandstein  22:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    There has been no evidence provided of "nationalist bias" so far and you should not make such charges against editors without substantiating them FIRST. Not a "they might or might not be substantiated later". You do sanction others exactly for such behavior hence you should not engage in it yourself. I am not assuming bad faith. I do question your judgment however.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Deacon

    Your comments at the naming conventions discussion did indeed imply that. But the point here is that after they were made Jacurek STOPPED adding names to the articles since it became clear that the policy itself was under dispute. His subsequent edits which are being dredged up here as "evidence" are completely in line with your view of the matter.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Ed Johnston's comments (copied from his talk) This ban would be applied to all editors listed below who have previously been sanctioned under any Eastern European cases - Ed, can you please explain to me why you are including me in this group? It appears you are doing so only because Sandstein included me there. But if you actually look at the list and read the comments, then you will notice that out of the six articles listed by Sandstein, two I've never edited in my life, and on the other four I made a single edit, sometimes long time ago (I have over 20k edits, I've even forgotten some of these) and when I was reverted, I ceased making any further edits.

    There's no way that making a single edit on an article can be in any way construed as "edit warring" or anything else. I have also supported the inclusion of German names in Polish articles (within reason), and have added Lithuanian names to Polish articles as well as Yiddish and Hebrew names to Polish articles (like I said, I got over 20k edits and I'm not going to waste my time going back and looking for the odd diff or so, but they're there). I've consistently applied WP:NCGN policy, regardless of the places involved. Of course I've mostly edited Poland related articles - I don't speak Portuguese, Yoruba or Nahuatl! At no point have I edit warred and in fact I asked for third opinion and discussed things on talk, and am currently in process of working on naming conventions guideline in order to sort out this mess. Can you explain at all what would justify your proposal to sanction me?Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment on Sandstein and Deacon's discussion of BRD

    • Deacon: Why should anyone be punished for following it (BRD)? - yes, exactly.
    • Sandstein: WP:BRD involves stopping after a single revert. - yes, exactly. And that is precisely what I did. In each of these cases I ceased editing the relevant article as soon as I got reverted.
    • Deacon: BRD means that if you are bold, and you get reverted ... you discuss it. - did that too. Asked for third opinion, discussed things on talk, without making any further edits to the articles themselves
    • Deacon: It doesn't mean that if you revert a controversial edit you have to simply accept the edit if the other editor or a friend just doesn't feel like respecting BRD himself. - this is true and in fact allows for more reverts then I actually made, provided discussion is under way. I, in fact, did "accept the edit" and made no further changes to the articles.

    The parts I disagree with:

    • Deacon: The editors placing the alternate names ..., know their edits will be opposed but apparently think it worth the fight. - No. The editors placing in the names are simply following policy at WP:NCGN. Now, you might disagree with the policy as she is written, but that's why we're having a discussion about it at present. It is the editors who are removing the names that are acting against policy and being disruptive.

    Likewise

    • Deacon: we should be predisposed to be sceptical towards the addition of these names, which in practice is usually nothing more than nationalist scent-marking; inserting them in knowledge of their controversy is the behaviour that is disruptive and violates our conduct policies; removing such inclusions follows our conduct policies. - Maybe we should be skeptical, but then that should be in the policy itself. As I said at the discussion repeatedly my main concern is that the situation is not treated consistently. There's no edit wars on insertion of German names into Polish places (sometimes extremely small villages) and that's supposed to be fine. Same for insertion of Lithuanian names into Polish places. But if a Polish name (or for that matter Belorussian) gets put into a Lithuanian place the three editors mentioned above (Dr. Dan, Lokyz and MK) converge on the article and edit war to keep it removed and all hell breaks loose. If we're going to be skeptical in one case, we need to be skeptical in other cases as well. Otherwise you're singling out a particular group/country for special treatment (whether good or bad) and that can't be justified, either on policy or ethical grounds.
    Additionally, saying that inserting names is nothing "more than nationalist scent-marking" is an unverifiable assertion (since you can't observe people's motives) and is potentially offensive to boot. Are these edits (population 404), , (population 282), (population 27!!!), , , (population 273), (population 13!!!!!!!), , , (population 16!!!), , , (huge metropolis, population 280), , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , "nationalist scent-marking"? And that's just since March 1st!
    Jacurek didn't do anything more than what Herkus is doing. He just had the misfortune of running into Dr. Dan, Lokyz and MK. He shouldn't be punished for that. And let's have Sandstein apply his own words, quote: " But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds". Whose more consistently adding the same language to multiple articles? Herkus? Or Jacurek, who also added German names to Polish places, Lithuanian names to Polish places, etc.. Again, I don't think Herkus is doing anything wrong here, but neither is Jacurek.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    These diffs are by another user, HerkusMonte (talk · contribs). That user is not involved in the edit wars that are at issue in this request, and so their edits are not reviewed here. They can be made the subject of a separate AE request if they are believed to be sanctionable.

    For the benefit of anybody reading this, I believe the discussion alluded to above is this one (permalink). It explains why, in my view, an editor is also engaged in (and therefore sanctionable for) edit-warring if they contribute a single revert to an edit war that is otherwise carried on mainly by others.  Sandstein  18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Yes, they are by another user who is not subject of this report but they are illustrative of the situation. For one thing they clearly show that your own condition that a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds - does not apply to Jacurek, neither in relative or absolute terms.
    And the reason why the above edits are not subject to an AE report are that
    1. the point is that Herkus wasn't doing anything wrong and neither was Jacurek. Since I don't think Herkus is doing anything wrong, why in the world would I want to file an AE report on him? I'm basically saying "editor A is not at fault - for comparison see editor B who does the same thing and is also not at fault". And Sandstein replies with "you can take editor B to court if you want to" - what's the logic here?
    2. the reason Herkus didn't get into any edit wars is simply because he didn't have to contend with a "Dr. Dan" or a "Lokyz" or a "MK" (he does revert when reverted). But that's neither Herkus' nor Jacurek's fault. If somebody DID actually go and remove those massive name additions, what do you think would have happened? People shouldn't be punished for being reasonable.
    3. Future Perfect at Sunrise for some reason decided to single out and pick on Jacurek.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Piotrus

    I am rather disappointed by FPS here.

    First, I'd like to ask: who gave you those diffs and requested that you post to AE on their behalf? It's not like you have edited any of the articles in question, nor have you been a participant to any talk page discussions, as far as I am aware.

    Second, I really hoped that the established editors with no axes to grind, in particular, respected admins (and I do respect FPS), would not use the "specter of EEML" poisoning the well argument. Instead of concentrating on editors who are creating the battleground through baiting and incivility (see VM post above), let's just go for the good, old EEML members, because, well, they are EEML, hence evil, hence the source of all problems, right? Somebody is being incivil to them? They surely deserved it. There is an edit war? Surely, they are the only guilty party.

    Third, Jacurek has not violated any policy. Has 3RR been violated, even once? No. Has CIV been violated, even once? No. Regarding , this edit is in line with WP:NCGN, and the implication of this for Gdansk rule need to be discussed; I recently raised this on talk there. As things stand, however, NCGN explicitly suggests moving of alt. names from lead to a dedicated section and states they should not be restored, and Jacurek was acting within NCGN to the letter (now, I started a discussion on talk to discuss whether this letter is correct and benefits Misplaced Pages, but this is hardly an AE issue). Lastly, yes, there has been a slow edit war at some articles, but in most if not all cases, Jacurek is enforcing NCGN, where other editors, propagating battleground and disruption, are attempting to go against policies on those articles. NCGN supports foreign name in articles as long as they are significant (and NCGN has nice, simple check for significance - 10% of English google sources). On Cathedral Square, Vilnius (talk) I've shown NCGN applies, yet Jacurek's opponents have not bothered to discuss it - they just revert him. Ditto for Bernardine Cemetery. Nobody has done an analysis for St. Anne's Church, Vilnius, but I expect NCGN applies as well. On two other articles, in Vilnius University the nameing section was just expanded enough to warrant an end to inclusion of the name in lead. I'd have to look at Suvalkija more closely. Ukrainische Hilfspolizei seems totally unrelated to that and I'll have to review it more closely again.

    Bottom line, Jacurek seems not to have violated any policies, most of his reverts are policy-supported (whereas most of those by his opponents are not), so how about the admins here focus on incivil, baiting editors and give the rest of us some breathing ground?

    All that said, 1RR for everyone would be a good voluntary rule to declare. I hereby do so for my self, for the next month on all naming-affected articles, and I would strongly suggest everyone else follows suit. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Responce to FSP: Thank you for clarifying my question, and I apologize if the tone was too aggressive. I would still appreciate an explanation why you singled Jacurek for the report.
    Comments for Sandstein and EdJohnston: I appreciate that you are willing to look further than just one side of the conflict. I would appreciate if you could tell me why did you decide to include Volunteer Marek in your analysis, with his 4 reverts total, each on a separate article, compared to Jacurek (19 reverts), MK (12 reverts), Dr Dan (14 reverts) and Lokyz (16 reverts). The last time I check, adhering to 1RR and BRD was the right thing to do... Misplaced Pages:Edit warring explicitly notes the need for repetetive reverts, so I am having trouble seeing why a user adhering to 1RR (or, even more clearly, making a single revert to an article in the space of many weeks or months) can be included in a discussion of edit warring. I also note that two of his reverts you cite specifically mention no responses for days or longer to discussion on talk. I would also appreciate clarification whether an editor reverting following a policy like NCGN and another reverting against it are to be treated as "equal"? Lastly, I would like to ask if you will be looking at incivility (which I think is at least as problematic as reverts), or just reverts. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Policy interpretation question at WP:EW: I raised a question related to interpretation of EW/BRD here. I would suggest that admins hold of on applying sanctions to VM till consensus is reached on that particular interpretation (this does not concern sanctions against other editors, IMHO). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Kotniski

    Echoing most of what Piotrus says, I note that this issue will never be sorted out by applying unilateral sanctions against a randomly chosen editor or two on one side of the debate. It's been going on for years; somehow those who consistently remove non-Lithuanian names from Lithuania-related articles seem to be exempted from any kind of rebuke or sanction (which of course in no way justifies the pointy removal of non-Polish names from Poland-related articles) - but in any case, it's necessary to resolve the underlying issues, through some kind of mediation or preferably involvement from the community at large, to work out the best ways to present this kind of important information to readers without being dictated to by those on various sides who are clearly driven mainly by irrational nationalist sentiment. --Kotniski (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    AE is not really equipped procedurally for broad reviews covering many editors and their whole editing history. That would need a request for an arbitration case. But I suspect that after WP:DIGWUREN and WP:EEML the Committee is so fed up with this whole ensemble of editors and their obscure historical grievances that it would just indef topic-ban them all and throw away the key. And I suspect that we are coming to a point at AE where we'll come to the same conclusion eventually, one editor at a time.  Sandstein  16:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    My point is that we need to stop focusing on editors and their "editing history" (whether one, two or many) and address the substantial issues of disagreement. You're right that AE (and indeed ArbCom generally) is not equipped procedurally for anything except the same old types of editor-focused action which are already known not to work; which is why we need to start thinking outside the AE box here.--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Well, if people are trying to reach some new agreement at the geographical names guideline, that's great and I'm all for it. But Jacurek's editing was not directed towards creating such an agreement. He was just edit-warring. His talk page contributions are few, and all seem to be focussed merely on asserting his own position, which is rather overtly of the type "treat geographical names as symbolic badges of recognition of historical national claims of possesion". And it is precisely this mentality that is the problem here. Whatever eventual solution there may be for these questions, Jacurek's editing has been persistently part not of the solution but of the problem. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Absolutely not true. I was just discussing the issue trying to reach agreement here ] for example and on countess other talk pages. I was adding alternative names in various languages, your accusation of me trying to claim a "national possession" is ABSOLUTELY not true. FP - Can you please wait for my statement before posting more accusations? I should find some time this weekend to respond.--Jacurek (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    FP, as I said earlier, I do respect you, and I think you are partially right here. Jacurek was doing quite a few reverts. However, as I, VM and he himself pointed out, 1) he was not alone and 2) most if not all of his edits were in line with the policies (unlike those of his opponents). I wish he had used the talk more and reverted less, but he is less guilty than many others, and unlike some, he has been civil, and he has been following the NCGN policy more often then not. I don't understand why you have singled him out in this report? Saying this, I'd also strongly urge Jacurek to follow my advice and declare that he will voluntarily restrict himself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming (and I urge others to follow mine and hopefully, his suit in this). I'd also suggest that the admins here try to be more creative than blocks and topic bans (lot of good have they done in the past, as we can see) and instead impose a bunch of 1RR restriction on a number of editors who focus on reverting (1RR restriction is the correct scalpel-level solution for revert warring, although I know that some people prefer to nuke anything nail shaped instead...I hope this mentality will not be seen in this discussion). For those who promise to voluntarily restrain themselves but are later shown they didn't keep the word, I'd of course suggest harsher penalties in the future (community patience is not unlimited). I will end by saying that if the outcome of this AE will be punishing only one of the edit warring editors, and at that one who was mostly in line with NCGN and who was, unlike some of the others, civil, it will send a pretty bad message out. It would also be nice if people would stop dredging the "EEML specter", poisoning the well with "if an involved editor was a party to the EEML case, 100% of the problem lies with him" argument (intentionally or not, this is the effect I am seeing). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    I have no problem with voluntarily restricting myself to 1RR on articles with disputed naming, please consider this comment as my commitment. However my commitment alone will not eliminate the problem of removal by few Lithuanian editors all Polish names from the articles that share common Polish-Lithuanian heritage. There is hope that this amazingly constructive discussion that is going on here will result in new rules being drafted and the issue will be resolved. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Actually most of bigger Lithuanian cities have Polish names in the name section be it Vilnius, Kaunas or Biržai, as does Vilnius University, and it is according to the WP:NCGN section that suggests the names not to be returend to lead after such section is created. It was an agreement that was reached, and that was and still is violated by an editor who has opinion of his own. So there is no conspiracy to remove one nation names from other nations cities articles, as one is trying to persuade others.--Lokyz (talk) 12:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Lokyz, you kept removing Polish names from the articles given by you as examples and all others summarizing your reverts with "what's the Polish etymology of the name?"which shows that the problem for you was not the place where alternative names should be included but existence of the Polish name itself. The name section has been created later because of the pressure applied by several editors. --Jacurek (talk) 10:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    and it is according to the WP:NCGN section that suggests the names not to be returend to lead after such section is createdObviously this is not a view shared by all editors as seen here where a German editor returns the Germanized name of a Polish city to the lead, this needs to be clarified. Personally I support the view, to remove names from lead, but if this is not accepted than there should be no double standards.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    I just want to remind Jacurek, taht on Talk:Biržai there was a discusssion, which finaly led to solution and compromise suitable for many users and many towns. I do also see a difference between a "Name" and translation of the object's description like it was noted on Talk:Bernardine Cemetery, and after this discussion the article remained stable for a long time, so I was thinking the compromise was reached.--Lokyz (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by uninvolved Hodja Nasreddin

    I followed several AE cases to understand what must be done by someone who wants to edit conflict-free, especially in the area of discretionary sanctions. Surprisingly, this boils down to a very simple rule: do not edit war under any circumstances. Even if you revert once a week, someone will bring you to AE. It goes like that: no reverts -> no conflicts -> no sanctions. This apply to all sides and almost all AE cases.Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Deacon of Pndapetzim

    Don't understand why my comments at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) were mentioned. In the comments Volunteer Marek/Radek was referring to, I expressed my opinion that we ought to be weighted against having alternate culture names in leads (in order to avoid nationalist wars). As it appears this AE request was brought against Jakurek for going around inserting such names into leads, I'm very confused as to why my comments are claimed to support his case? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Punishing users for following BRD ... good idea?
    Add: As I and others have argued at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) , we should be predisposed to be sceptical towards the addition of these names, which in practice is usually nothing more than nationalist scent-marking; inserting them in knowledge of their controversy is the behaviour that is disruptive and violates our conduct policies; removing such inclusions follows our conduct policies. I'm concerned about the level of actions being taken against certain users merely because, over a few years, they've reverted inclusion of alternate language versions of place-names. As placing these names (and indeed removing stable ones) is inherently controversial in these area, why does WP:BRD not apply? Why should anyone be punished for following it? I also find the idea that you can get sanction for some reverts of various warring IPs over a couple of years quite ghastly. This is simply punishing users for having an account: not a good idea. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    WP:BRD involves stopping after a single revert. The names at issue have been added and removed more than once. Also, edit-warring is forbidden no matter whether one reverts IPs or users with an account.  Sandstein  16:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    BRD means that if you are bold, and you get reverted ... you discuss it. It doesn't mean that if you revert a controversial edit you have to simply accept the edit if the other editor or a friend just doesn't feel like respecting BRD himself. The editors placing the alternate names, esp. in the last few years (the Piotrus 1 extends amnesty to edits preceding the case), know their edits will be opposed but apparently think it worth the fight. This is the disruptive behavior. Whether or not the disruptive behaviour causes an edit war depends on whether or the inserting users fight to keep their controversial edit; reverting any reverts of a controversial edit is the only way other users can practically adhere to the spirit of BRD. The way to solve this is not by punishing the users who are reacting to the controversial edits via BRD, but by adjusting our tolerance of such controversial edits in the first place. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Surprisingly, I am in (rough) agreement with Deacon here. At least one proposed sanction (on VM, who made no more than 1 revert to each article in question, and participated extensively in talk discussions) seems to say that "following BRD can still get you in trouble". Is this really a message we want to send to the community? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Mymolobaccount

    Proposing topic bans to all editors who are actively working on solving the naming dispute so they won't be able to achieve solution to the issue? That's wikipedia at its finest. Sandstein's behaviour here and proposals are one of the most counterproductive to Misplaced Pages and cooperation between editors from opposed POV's that I have seen. Two opposite sites are sitting down to talk and solve the issue, Sandstein comes in and proposes to ban active participants instead of letting them work out a solution on which they are working in good faith and in civil manner. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Vecrumba

    For the most part I have pretty good relations with editor on both sides of the fence, generally being "pro-" both sides. I would be happy to assist in mediating, anything is better than more draconian measures which breed nothing but bad blood. Unless someone proposing any solution is intimately aware of the historical conflicts underlying naming disputes, any action they take (hello admins!) will make things worse, not better. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Yes, I believe these are excessive sanctions. If they edit warred over naming conventions, they should be either placed on 1RR per week restriction or banned from editing names. Hodja Nasreddin (talk) 03:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by M.K.

    • Diffs which supposedly should show my “nationalistic” revert warring with IP from 2008-2009 time frame lacks background. That IP is full time abusive revert warrior, I complained about abusive nature of that IP and his various IPs farm one, two, three times. Community offered little interest in those cases during that time, but surprise surprise Radeksz aka Volunteer Marek was the first who attacked me back then . The same IP range reappearing in those articles again now of course supporting EEML group as usual. Of cause none of current admins looking into these IP again.
    • From relevant time frame I made two reverts with 10 hour time gap on the listed article. I'm surprised that it could cause offense and I am sorry for that and whatever damage you think this might caused. I was frustrated that community is not willing to help nor do they care about, as I saw the case with disruptive IP case or the EEML case itself, when one of the most notorious groups are enabled to operate in old habits again as if EEML revelation never happened. For instance:

    user: Volunteer Marek constantly stalking editors again:

    Comment by BorisG

    I would recomment to admins to err on the side of caution. If there are clear and persistent patterns of disruption (e.g. edit warring), sanctions may be called for. However without a persistent pattern, a warning is enough. Also if disruption is caused in a very niche area like this naming saga, sanctions should only apply to this activity. Topic banning editors for niche violations is throwing productive editors with the bathwater.

    I would also suggest that admins give a strong warning to all involved editors NOT to use the AE page as a battleground. - BorisG (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Thank you for that uninvolved perspective. The sooner AE is closed down as a forum for content control—specifically, not entertaining charges of disruption unless there are clear and repeated violations of 3RR, sockpuppetry, et al.—the sooner editors will be forced to deal with each other. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 18:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
    One area where I would sanction draconian measures is perma-banning anyone who sockpuppets in an area of conflict. There's no excuse for that. Unfortunately, in the Wikiworld, that would only result in immediate charges of sockpuppetry, for example, where multiple editors might attend the same university. The moral is, the more draconian the enforcement, the larger the carrot being held out to those seeking to control content. For now, those editors control content the most effectively who have mastered the art of the unintended consequences of enforcement. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Novickas

    I'm really sorry to see that we haven't been working towards compromise and consensus on the alternate names issue. Not surprised; there's a lot of long-standing bad blood. But I think the problem would be better addressed by more discussion at the guideline pages and more participation by outsiders at the individual articles. (I don't think they need to be experts in the area.) I'd rather see a 1RR per week/per editor for renaming (in Sandstein's intepretation of renaming) at all Eastern European articles. Because the admins here will be wanting to keep clear of voicing their opinions at these articles, could we agree on a separate venue to discuss them? Pick some previously-uninvolved editor out of the pool of mediators, say? Novickas (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Jacurek

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    I encourage editors to make only comments directly pertinent to the request, because "the usual infighting, bickering and sniping", as Volunteer Marek puts it, is likely to WP:BOOMERANG in the form of sanctions. Fut. Perf., I agree that the request looks actionable at first glance, but without a WP:DIGWUREN notification diff, we are forbidden to act on it.  Sandstein  14:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    Jacurek has been sanctioned (and, through each sanction, obviously, also warned) under DIGWUREN half a dozen times. Just look at the log. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    But we still need a diff of a valid warning for the record. This should do, and I recommend that you complete the request with it.  Sandstein  16:18, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
    Indeed, this will do, and, with all due respect, demanding that I also paste it somewhere up there now that you've already seen it is taking bureaucratic process-wonkery to an unprecedented extreme. No, I won't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

    OK, as a preliminary opinion, I think that there is actionable evidence that several editors have engaged in edit-warring to remove or add names from the leads of the articles named by Fut.Perf. and Jacurek, as can be seen in the history of e.g. Bernardine Cemetery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I suggest that we compile a consolidated list of reverts by editor and decide on that basis whether to sanction anybody, after requesting the involved editors to comment. If not other admin disagrees, I'm going to start compiling such a list.  Sandstein  06:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I believe that any campaigns of mass removal or mass addition of alternate-language names should be looked into. Sandstein's idea of making a consolidated list of reverts sounds good. EdJohnston (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I've started the list below; all admins are welcome to help complement it. We should try to cover all previously EE-warned editors and recent edit wars.  Sandstein  19:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Before we start discussing sanctions against individuals, I submit the following principles for administrator discussion:
    • Whether the reverts complied with the applicable naming guidelines is irrelevant, as such edits are not exempt from WP:EW. Also, compliance with this guideline is a content issue, because it requires editorial judgment, and cannot therefore be reviewed in an arbitration context.
    • Reverts from earlier years are relevant insofar as they are part of a continued edit war involving the same editors, or as part of a pattern of adding or removing the same language (see below).
    • Edit-warring to add or remove a language from any one article does not necessarily reflect bias, as there may be policy-based grounds for such reverts (even if these do not excuse edit-warring). But a pattern of consistently adding or removing the same language from multiple articles cannot be reasonably explained on guideline grounds, since the guideline makes reference to the use of names in English-language literature, which differs from topic to topic. Such a pattern of editing, therefore, can only be explained by a desire to put nationalist bias ahead of Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. This makes such a pattern incompatible with WP:NPOV and, consequently, grounds for sanctions.  Sandstein  21:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Further admin comments about the Result concerning Jacurek

    • I've made a new sub-heading to clarify that this is where admin comments can continue. Move this section below if you prefer. I'm glad Sandstein has collected the evidence on these articles because it helps narrow the issue. I see that other participants have also been notified, and we await their responses. Among the possible actions we might take, we could consider a ban on adding or removing any alternate names for articles. This ban would be applied to all editors listed below who have previously been sanctioned under any Eastern European cases. This would mean renaming bans for all the editors below except M.K., who could be notified of the discretionary sanctions and warned. Banned editors could still argue on the talk pages for changing the alternate names.
    • This assumes that the discussion here reaches a conclusion on which of these changes in alternate names exceed the limits of good-faith editing. Sandstein's argument is that consistent changes to promote the same ethnicity are usually in bad faith. I see the logic of that, especially for people who were previously sanctioned. (These aren't newcomers who are unfamiliar with our customs). EdJohnston (talk) 05:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    • A renaming ban is a good idea for (at least some of) the editors discussed here. But I'm not convinced it that it is sensible to extend it to all editors under EE sanctions. We have no evidence that this is a widespread problem in this topic area (although I wouldn't be surprised if it were) or with most previously sanctioned editors.  Sandstein  21:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    • My proposal is to consider a renaming ban only for the editors named in your table below who are also under EE sanctions. Perusal of the dates of these reverts of the alternate names shows that a good number of the reverts have occurred since 1 March. If there is a recent upsurge, and if the editors below are the main ones doing the reverting, that is a reason why they should come to our attention. It distinguishes them from the other sanctioned EE editors. EdJohnston (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Right, I agree; I misread you. I'm proposing an editor-by-editor analysis and sanctions below, based on the principles submitted above and the evidence collected below.
    • Jacurek has engaged in nationalist edit-warring about names, violating WP:EW and WP:NPOV. He has a very long history of EE sanctions, up to a 6 months topic ban, so his "last chance" moment has already passed. Proposed sanction: indefinite EE topic ban.
    • Volunteer Marek has made individual reverts in support of and in conjunction with Jacurek's nationalist edit-warring about names. He has a moderate history of EE sanctions, and notably a past sanction for covert coordination of edits with Jacurek (WP:EEML#Radeksz). Proposed sanction: six months renaming ban as described below; warning for expressing what sounds like nationalist prejudice on this page ("Polish editors, unlike Lithuanian ones, actually follow policy").
    • M.K has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. They have not previously been warned about arbitration sanctions, so none can be imposed here. Proposed consequence: warning.
    • Dr. Dan has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. He has also made mild personal attacks ("trolling", "trolling"). He has a moderate history of EE sanctions. Proposed sanctions: indefinite renaming ban, three months topic ban.
    • Lokyz has participated in nationalist edit-warring about names. He has also made slightly more serious personal attacks ("ex-admin RPG player", "Dyslexic"). He has a limited history of EE sanctions. Proposed sanctions: indefinite renaming ban, three months topic ban.
    A renaming ban mans that the editor is banned from changing, removing or adding names (including translations) in a Eastern European language with respect to a subject that the same article already designates with a name in another Eastern European language. This notably also covers anything that appears as part of the article (such as categories, images or templates), and moving pages. For the purpose of this ban, "Eastern European language" includes German.  Sandstein  23:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    @Sandstein: I support all the bans you've recommended above. I suggest keeping this open for at least another 24 hours to see if more admins will comment. EdJohnston (talk) 00:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    Considering that the principles and sanctions proposed above have not been opposed by an administrator after two and a half days; that no other administrator (or uninvolved user) has commented here a day after a request for more input at WP:AN, that I have discussed the application of WP:EW to this case in more detail at my talk page, that the arguments advanced by the users at issue (to the extent that they have made a statement at all) are unpersuasive; based on the considerations above and the evidence below, in application and enforcement of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions, the sanctions proposed above are enacted. They are notified to the users and logged at WP:DIGWUREN#2011.  Sandstein  06:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

    Name-changing reverts in the EE topic area

    Jacurek

    Jacurek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (warning), partially copied from the request

    Previous sanctions: many blocks up to 3 months for topic-related misconduct; WP:DIGWUREN 1RR restriction (2009) and interaction ban (2010); WP:EEML#Jacurek and WP:EEML#Jacurek topic banned (6 months in Dec 2009)

    Volunteer Marek

    Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), previously editing as Radeksz (warning)

    Previous sanctions: Three non-overturned topic-related blocks; WP:EEML#Radeksz and WP:EEML#Radeksz topic banned (rescinded in June 2010)

    M.K

    M.K (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (no warning found)

    Previous sanctions: none

    Dr. Dan

    Dr. Dan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning)

    Previous sanctions: 2 incivility blocks, WP:DIGWUREN interaction ban for 3 months in 2010

    Lokyz

    Lokyz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (notified) (warning)

    Previous sanctions: One non-overturned AE block; Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes#Lokyz admonished and restricted for edit-warring (2008)

    Jalapenos do exist

    Jalapenos do exist is warned not to misrepresent sources.  Sandstein  16:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Request concerning Jalapenos do exist

    User requesting enforcement
    Gatoclass (talk) 10:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jalapenos do exist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. . Reversion of this edit. With diff #2 below: Violation of global 1RR restriction on I-P articles. Violation of Jalapenos' 1RR per day ban on I-P articles.
    2. . Reversion of this edit. With diff #1 above: Violation of global 1RR restriction on I-P articles. Violation of Jalapenos' 1RR per day ban on I-P articles.
    3. Gross violation of WP:NPOV through the creation of another heavily biased article from this user. See further explanation below.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs)
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

    Topic ban.

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    On December 20 last year, Jalapenos do exist was banned from making more than one global revert per day on I-P related articles, for a period of three months. This came on top of the 1RR restriction that was imposed on all editors in the I-P topic area. The first two diffs in the evidence section above demonstrate that Jalapenos has violated both restrictions by making two clear reverts on the same article only 8 hours apart.

    The third diff above, represents the state of the article as Jalapenos created it before others started to make substantial edits to it. I submit that the article he created represents a gross violation of NPOV, for several reasons:

    • As with other I-P articles Jalapenos has created, this article completely omitted any statements from Palestinian moderates, presenting only extreme or hardline points of view. Thus, we learn in the intro that Palestinians in Rafah celebrated in the streets, but nowhere in the article was it mentioned that Palestinian residents of Awarta condemned the attack. We learned that Al-Aqsa called the attack "heroic" and Hamas justified it, but not that the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority condemned it. Nor did the article mention that the attack may have been carried out in retaliation for the killing of two Palestinian teenagers from Awarta last year. I was able to find all this information in five minutes from the sources that Jalapenos himself provided: Jalapenos must have read them, but he has chosen to simply omit any information that might detract from his one-sided presentation of Palestinians as bloodthirsty and vengeful.
    • Jalapenos included not one, but three horrific images of bodies of the victims. All three images were quickly deleted from Commons by an admin, but not before J. had reverted the removal of only one of them by another user (see diff #1 above). Note that J. gave no reason for his revert.
    • Jalapenos restored the information about Palestinians in Rafah celebrating the killings after I had removed it as wp:undue in the lead (see diff #2 above). He gave no explanation for his revert, in common with his usual practice. Nor did he leave any explanation on the talk page. At the moment he reverted it, he must have been aware that the residents of Awarta had had an opposite response, calling the killings bestial, but for Jalapenos only the response of the Rafahns merits inclusion in the intro.

    Jalapenos has a long history of creating heavily biased content on this encyclopedia, as a look at his editing history will demonstrate. I'd like to think the user is capable of reform but I'm afraid I see no evidence of it with this latest series of edits. I am therefore requesting a topic ban for this user. Gatoclass (talk) 11:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Jalapenos

    J. states that he was merely responding to a request to move the picture, but Biosketch's comment on the talk page included the comment: please consider that plastering photos of the victims all over the article is nonconstructive editing. Clearly, he felt that the addition of three pictures was excessive. Jalapenos ignored this concern in restoring the image.

    Regardless, the condition of the article before others made substantial changes was demonstrably one-sided, to a degree that I think ought to be considered unacceptable. Excluding all but the most extreme Palestinian viewpoints and plastering the article with graphic images of "dead babies", to quote User:Y, should surely be evidence enough of that. Gatoclass (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I'm withdrawing the violation of 1RR charge. I missed the fact that Jalapenos had restored the image to a different section, and that he might have believed that by doing so he was responding to Biosketch's main concern. He still could, I think, have asked for clarification, but I think this can no longer be described as a clearcut revert. My apologies to Jalapenos and the adjudicating admins for the error.
    In regards to the other part of the case, I will probably have more to say tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 18:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Request downgrade

    On reflection, though I believe the article created by Jalapenos was blatantly POV, I probably would not have brought this request on that evidence alone, it was that in combination with the 1RR violation, since withdrawn, that persuaded me to file it. Though Jalapenos has in my experience made some highly questionable edits at times, and in my opinion added some marginal content, I'm not entirely sure a sanction is warranted at this point. In the absence of further evidence from other users, therefore, and in the interests of collegiality, I am downgrading my enforcement request from a topic ban to a warning. Gatoclass (talk) 14:24, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Jalapenos do exist

    Statement by Jalapenos do exist

    I create a pretty good article almost single handedly, and instead of getting thanked, first I get hit with a frivolous AfD (snow kept), and now this bullshit.

    In edit #1, a user had removed an image of a victim from the Reactions section with the statement "inappropriately situated, no connection to Reactions"; I agreed, so I restored the image to the Victims section, explaining what I did and why. A very mundane edit in the course of upkeep on an article I created, and by no means a revert. So much for the 1RR allegation.

    The NPOV allegation is nonsense. I really don't feel like going through all the falsehoods and carefully constructed half-truths, but if you just look at this article and my other articles, you can see that they are not biased, and many editors have said as much. I'm proud of the fact that I've received compliments from editors with declared sympathies on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

    Please take a good, long look at Gatoclass' editing and complaint history. What's going on here is that Gatoclass has a strong partisan POV regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict, he seeks to imprint his POV on any he article he can (typically articles where someone else did the real work), he relentlessly bullies anyone who gets in his way, and he attempts to manipulate the AE process for this purpose. Of course, people who share his partisan POV will support these attempts, and people who oppose it will oppose them. You guys can either find a way to put a stop to this behavior, or you can let your time get wasted with drama and watch as sensible editors continue to disappear from this area out of frustration. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 14:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Gatoclass

    Having apparently abandoned the 2RR allegation, Gatoclass is now clutching at the idea that I ignored Biosketch's concerns when restoring a photo to the Victims section. Not exactly an issue for AE, but in any case Biosketch has explicitly stated "I support displaying one photo in the Victims section, as a relevant document illustrating the event with which the article is concerned". My position is similar, and we editors who are actually writing the article are, at this very moment, having a civil and rather nuanced discussion on what to do with the photos. Cptnono, NortyNort and Biosketch essentially agree with me, and Robofish essentially agrees with Y, who unilaterally deleted all the photos by invoking WP:IAR. I agree with Biosketch that meanwhile the deletion "should be reverted pending a more articulate explanation", and you might say that our concern is being ignored, but I am bound by 1RR. Meanwhile, Gatoclass, who has contributed nothing to the article except a short series of POV-serving edits, has simply not participated in the discussion. And why should he, when he can circumvent the normal consensus-building procedures and just force his partisan position on the article by gaming AE? I guess that he will soon receive assistance from Mkativerata, who has not sullied himself with actual discussion on the talk page either. That's how it goes. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Sandstein regarding Fatah and sources

    I originally wrote in the lead: Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the military wing of Palestinian Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack, calling it a "heroic operation" This was based on the cited Guardian article, which wrote: The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the armed wing of Fatah, the dominant political faction in the West Bank, said it had carried out the "heroic operation … ". Word for word.

    I also wrote in the body: Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. The statement said the "heroic" operation was a "natural response to massacres committed by the occupation against our people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank." This was based on the cited Jerusalem Post source, which wrote: "PA officials in Ramallah expressed skepticism over a statement released by Fatah’s militia, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. The statement said the “heroic” operation was a “natural response to massacres committed by the occupation against our people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.” Again, word for word. (See also ElComandantChe's briefer statement on this.)

    Both cited sources state that Fatah's militia/the armed wing of Fatah, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, claimed responsibility for the attack. As do my statements. Neither source attributes any responsibility to the PA, nor do either of my statements. The Guardian source notes the commonly known fact that Fatah dominates the PA, as does my second statement. Everything in both statements is in one or both of the sources, though the second statement has a short explanatory clause that's only stated explicitly in the first source.

    Mkateriva deleted the second statement entirely with the edit summary rm statement that falsifies and exaggerates source and throws in a copyright violation for good measure. I've already shown that the edit summary is at least partially false. I'm not sure what he meant by "throws in a copyright violation". He then proceeded to remove the first statement entirely, with the edit summary rm claim contradicted by http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=211909 This edit summary is also false (though it might have been an innocent mistake), because Mkateriva's second Jpost article does not contradict my Guardian and first Jpost articles; it merely notes that Al Hayat published a contradictory report, and it neither endorses nor challenges this report. Al Hayat is owned by a prince of Saudi Arabia, a regime not known for allowing a robust independent press. While it would nevertheless be perfectly fine to include both statements side by side, there is no justification for simply deleting a statement agreed on by both The Guardian and The Jerusalem Post because it is contradicted by Al Hayat, an inferior source in both quantity and quality.

    In short, my statements did not misrepresent the sources in any way, and Mkateriva selectively removed them under flimsy and partially false pretexts. It is entirely obvious that he was uncomfortable with the claim of responsibility by Fatah's armed wing, reported by two mainstream reliable sources, and chose to deal with this discomfort by simply deleting them. What this episode illustrates is that with a strong enough commitment to deception and sophistry, any edit - any edit whatsoever - can be portrayed as sinister, and any selective removal of material, no matter how biased and egregious, can be gotten away with by using AE as a distractive. The logical conclusion of this type of behavior is Unomi's long missive which basically boils down to "there are things in the sources that JDE didn't use!" How true, and how tragic, since I would be going back to use the sources more thoroughly, thereby improving the article and Misplaced Pages, if only I weren't stuck here responding to spurious accusations. The question is whether people who act like this have to pay any price for it, or if they can just go on freely slinging their mud hoping that some of it will stick while they continue with their bad editing. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to Sandstein regarding Hamas and sources

    The main issue here is that the source has been changed since I used it. The cached original version is titled Palestinian takes revenge, kills 5 settlers. This is where I got but stated that the incident was a Palestinian "revenge" attack on Israelis. That the whole thing is a statement by Hamas is simple: the source is a Hamas website. The Hamas statement acknowledges that the attack occurred but, notably, does not claim responsibility. That Hamas denied responsibility has been stated explicitly in that same primary source and in mainstream secondary sources, e.g. , but I was using the first source anyway and its indication by silence was sufficient to source the point. My summary of Hamas's position was accurate and representative of the source in every element. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by Mkativerata

    In addition to the substantial evidence filed above, a few other issues demonstrate the relentless POV-pushing of JdE on this article:

    • Falsified linking of the attack to Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. This was the article before anyone else really touched it. It said Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. Plainly, this statement is designed to push a POV that Fatah, and thus the PA, is linked to the attacks. The statement falsifies the source cited. The source says nothing of Fatah releasing a statement. Absolutely nothing. The source actually says that the PA (controlled by Fatah) was "sceptical" of a statement supposedly released by the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. Of course, the main content of the source is to show that Fatah and the PA condemened the attacks. But JdE's article makes no mention of the PA's condemnation, instead choosing to falsify the source to implicate Fatah. The fact that JdE's content also violated the copyright of the source cited demonstrates the extreme rush in which this hatchet job of an article was prepared.
    • Of course, we later found out that in fact the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades denied having anything to do with the attack. In these two edits I added a more up-to-date source saying that al-Aqsa denied involvement, and that the "statement" claiming responsibility was issued by a random splinter group that uses al-Aqsa's name. But despite the evidence to the contrary, JdE had to persist in restoring the perjorative links to Fatah despite the source used being obviously out of date and overtaken by more accurate sources (I'd edit the article again... but 1RR).
    • As per Gatoclass, the article took great pains to mention anything that could reflect badly on the Palestinian administration. But JdE conspicuously ignored information from the same sources that could provide a more balanced view, such as the condemnations by PA, the reaction of residents of Awarta.

    Breaches of 1RR are forgivable, and it seems there weren't any here. But POV-pushing by source falsification and selective inclusion of perjorative material cannot be tolerated. This is exactly what topic bans were designed for. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    On the first point. The source says "PA officials in Ramallah expressed skepticism over a statement released by Fatah’s militia, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings", i.e. JDE representation of the source is quite accurate. No comments on credibility of both JPost articles mentioned above. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    On what basis does "Fatah's militia" = "Fatah"? That link is plainly a falsification, especially when (a) the same sentence says that the PNA (controlled by Fatah) expressed scepticism about the statement; and (b) it is well established that the description of AAMB as "Fatah's militia" is dubious and controversial. JdE has deliberately set out to mispresent the source to tie the attacks not only to AAMB but to Fatah. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: Just a couple of points: (1) Unomi has presented more evidence of source falsification below (see the Hamas "revenge" issue). (2) A dispute about POV on a particular article is a content issue; an accusation that a user is pushing POV in his or her article work is a conduct issue. Pushing POV falls within the scope of ARBPIA sanctions as conduct that "seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". AE admins here aren't being asked to adjudicate on a content dispute (the content dispute at the article has pretty much settled down); they're being asked to sanction an editor for pushing POV. Accordingly, I think the POV accusations against JdE are actionable as an AE request. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Agreed, POV-pushing is sanctionable, but normally not on the basis of writing a single (even if possibly deficient) article. We'd need evidence for a pattern of non-neutral conduct. The previous AE request cited below may be relevant, though.  Sandstein  23:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
    Actually, on further review and in fairness to JdE, the Hamas/revenge/attribution issue may be due to an earlier version of the source that was linked. It seems an earlier version of the Al Qassam article said in its headline, "Palestinian takes revenge, kills 5 settlers". Al Qassam is linked to Hamas, so perhaps the attribution of the "revenge" quote to Hamas can be explained on that basis. An earlier version of the source is copy/pasted at this forum. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    As another example of the POV-pushing in Itamar killings, JdE included 2010 Palestinian militancy campaign as a "See also" link. That article is a controversial article essentially claiming a concerted effort by Palestinian factions to use violence to derail the peace process in 2010. Including a see also link in Itamar killings was none other than a brazen attempt, unsupported by any reliable sources, to suggest that these murders were a cynical part of that so-called militancy campaign. It should come as no surprise that JdE is one of the principal authors of 2010 Palestinian militancy campaign. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    @JdE's recent lengthy post, as it questions my own edits:

    The phrase "It added that the perpetrator managed to return safely to his base." is a word-for-word copyright violation of .
    The suggestion that Al-Hayat is an unreliable source in these matters is completely spurious. A read of our own WP article on the newspaper will show that. The fact that the Jerusalem Post reported Al-Hayat's reports verbatim indicates that it is accepted for its reliability across the spectrum of reasonable I/P views. This New York Times article is a good read. It was abundantly clear by the time of my edit (and remains clear now) that early news reports attributing the attack to the AAMB were completely wrong, and I make no apology for correcting it. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Statement by unomi

    Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort, neither its selection of articles nor individual articles will ever be 'finished', we work together, sometimes competitively and at best cooperatively to continually improve presentation of the material available - in light of this we shouldn't hold any one editor responsible for 'perfecting' an article. I believe that this holds true when looking at the broad selection of sources available for any given subject, however, when an editor chooses to selectively include material from a source - and indeed materially misrepresent the content of the sources - then we have a problem.

    JDE was fairly recently sanctioned at AE, see here, where uninvolved admins stated: "I do, however, see other problematic editing, including apparent single-purpose, POV-driven editing affecting multiple articles, including article creation, ..." and "... we caution him that future misconduct on these articles can result in him being excluded from the topic area, blocked from editing, or otherwise restricted.".

    Did JDE fail to represent the sources he used adequately? Looking at the version indicated by Mkativerata above, starting from the bottom up.

    1. Hamas, the group that governs the Gaza Strip, did not claim responsibility, but stated that the incident was a Palestinian "revenge" attack on Israelis and argued that Palestinian factions "have the full right... to use all tools and means of resistance" against Israel.

    • The only thing regarding the perpetrator and motivation stated there is: "Israeli media claimed that angry Palestinian attacked a home in the illegal settlement of Itamar near Nablus and killed Five settlers from one family before he escapes." I would also note that the passage regarding armed resistance is edited to remove any mention of international law, the occupation and changes 'Israeli occupation forces and the armed Israeli settlers' to simply 'Israel'.
    • Also note that the page shows related stories, one bearing the headline: "Hamas denies responsibility for Itamar incident" and contains: "Al-Rashak confirmed that harming children is not part of Hamas' policy, nor is it the policy of the resistance factions."

    2. Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, in which it claimed responsibility for the killings. The statement said the "heroic" operation was a "natural response to massacres committed by the occupation against our people in the Gaza Strip and West Bank." It added that the perpetrator managed to return safely to his base.

    • The source article as a whole is somewhat confusing to be honest, personally I would probably look for a more authoritative source regarding just who claimed responsibility for what. A quick google search quickly brings into to question the quality of the assertion: A previously unknown group, the Imad Mughniyah Cell of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack Saturday, but an unnamed Israeli officer told Haaretz daily that this was "nonsense."
    • The source does however repeatedly state that the PNA condemned “any act that targets civilians, regardless of their identity.” the entire first 1/3 of the source article is dedicated to the PNA condemning the killings, yet none, not one bit of that is mentioned under Palestinian reactions, not just a little. That the PNA condemned the killings is repeated in just about every source that was in use at that time.

    3. This LA Times article is used 3 times, mostly for details that in some cases are contradicted by sources closer to the event, such as the 2 unharmed children were hiding rather than sleeping. But much information in the source is ignored such as:

    • Israeli authorities suspect that the killings, the deadliest attack inside a settlement in several years, were either a strike by Palestinian militants or a revenge attack by residents of the West Bank village of Awarta, where two Palestinian teenagers were shot to death a year ago as they collected garbage near Itamar.
    • Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Salam Fayyad also criticized the killings. "As we have always rejected violence against our people, we reject it against others and we condemn it."
    • Tensions between settlers and Palestinian villagers have been escalating for weeks. Founded in 1984, the Itamar settlement sits on land that was once controlled by the village of Awarta, said Awarta Mayor Qais Awwad.
    • In recent weeks, Palestinians have accused settlers in the area of chopping down hundreds of olive trees, burning Palestinians' cars and shooting at villagers. Last week, Israeli soldiers were accused of using live gunfire to quell one clash, injuring 10 Palestinians and one settler.
    • Itamar's settlers are considered among the most fervent, believing Israel has a historic and religious right to absorb the West Bank, which Israel seized during the 1967 Middle East War. Most of the international community, however, views Israel's settlements as illegal and has called for Israel to end the occupation by allowing Palestinians to build their own state on the land.
    • Israeli soldiers appeared to be focusing their efforts on family members of the two Palestinians killed last March. At the time, Palestinians had complained that the unarmed youths were killed by settlers from Itamar, although Israeli soldiers said they shot the teens. A military investigation was opened into the incident. Several male relatives in the family were arrested Saturday and their home remained surrounded by Israeli soldiers.

    I can reach no other conclusion than JDE deliberately excluded information which would be of value to an encyclopedic article but might run counter to his intentions with wikipedia.

    We aren't talking about just not doing diligent research in finding appropriate sources, we are talking about intentional and consistent omissions from numerous sources that he had read. It is this kind of editing which is most problematic in terms of editor friction and is an impediment to a collaborative editing atmosphere, not to mention being just plain manipulative of wikipedia readers. un☯mi 21:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment to Sandstein

    Regarding: "Whether the article as a whole conformed to WP:NPOV when it was created, or whether relevant information was omitted, is probably a content dispute that cannot be decided in an arbitration context"

    I have to echo the sentiment of Mkativerata above. The I/P discretionary sanctions state that this type of behavior is falls under the purview of AE: that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. it also explicitly mentions WP:NPOV: Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Misplaced Pages's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing. WP:NPOV has as its first line: Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. - it may be that this should be followed in theory but that in practice it rarely happens (especially in contentious areas), but that is more than anything the fault of those who should be enforcing the policy. One could argue that omitting material that speaks to possible motives, such as carried by the LA Times, might potentially be a content issue, but surely not that the PNA had condemned the attacks when half of the article is about 'reactions' and when the sources are brimming with the PNA reactions. It strikes me that intentionally omitting that the PNA had condemned the attacks, and even going so far as intimating that it was linked to them is such a gross violation when you consider that just about every single source JDE used carried the information that the PNA had condemned them. un☯mi 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Response to JDE's comment

    Regarding: "The logical conclusion of this type of behavior is Unomi's long missive which basically boils down to "there are things in the sources that JDE didn't use!" How true, and how tragic, since I would be going back to use the sources more thoroughly, thereby improving the article and Misplaced Pages, if only I weren't stuck here responding to spurious accusations."

    Let me be Frank, Shirley you must be joking. In light of your previous AE where you also forwarded this very same mix of mild outrage, denial of any wrong-doing and deflection of core issues I find myself yet again amazed at the credulity that you attribute to your fellow editors. I do however welcome your tacit acknowledgement that you did not reflect the weight of contents in the sources that you used. That you would have, if only.. rings mightily hollow however; you managed to add the responses of the UN, France, Germany, US, 'quartet on the Middle East', Perez and Netanyahu - replete with flags in most cases, yet the Palestinian reactions are 1. giving out candy, 2. military wing of fatah claiming responsibility calling it 'heroic', 3. Hamas calling it an act of revenge - yet failed to mention what is stated in just about each source that you use - The Palestinian National Authority condemning the attacks. Sorry, but the contention that you somehow didn't have the time to mention that is laughable. The conscious and willful omission of what is given weight in the sources is a blatant WP:NPOV violation, and attempting to reduce that to "there are things in the sources that JDE didn't use!" is brazen, but brings us back to the same situation as in the previous AE - assume bad faith or assume no clue.

    Regarding: "The question is whether people who act like this have to pay any price for it, or if they can just go on freely slinging their mud hoping that some of it will stick while they continue with their bad editing."

    Indeed.
    un☯mi 02:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    Comment regarding the downgrade request by Gatoclass

    I never expected more to come of this than a warning and would find that a satisfactory conclusion to this request as well. un☯mi 14:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Jalapenos do exist

    I was heavily involved in the Itamar article yesterday and also, albeit to a much lesser extent, with the Itamar attack article that split off of it. My immediately following comments may therefore be considered, and may indeed be, biased. On the matter of Revert #1, in all fairness it ought not to be classified as a Revert. I removed a photo placed in the Reactions sections, feeling that that was not an appropriate place for it; whereupon User:Jalapenos do exist proceeded to restore the photo in the Victims section – which, at least in relative terms, was a more appropriate place for it (or less inappropriate, depending on how you want to construe it).

    I can sympathize with User:Gatoclass' remark about the article taking on what could be considered, and indeed may have been, a biased character. I commented to that effect on the Discussion page with regard to the omission of Prime Minister Fayyad's formal condemnation and with regard to the (spurious, in my view) attribution of responsibility to the Fatah party. The Jerusalem Post article that was the source for the first paragraph of the Palestinian reaction did include information to the effect that Fayyad condemned the massacre, but the editor(s) elected not to include it in the article. It also explained that Fatah did not directly claim responsibility for the massacre but rather that a faction of Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade did – but this comment too went unaddressed.

    However, I would not be as hasty as User:Gatoclass in concluding that User:Jalapenos do exist's edits deliberately left out information. One must keep in mind the fact that this was a clear case of aggressor and victim. Oftentimes that relationship is not so sharply defined in the ongoing cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians but, given the circumstances, in this case it is only natural to frame it in those terms. Furthermore, specifically with regard to the Fatah point, User:Jalapenos do exist may simply not have been informed enough as an editor on the dynamics of the Palestinian's quasi-political/quasi-paramilitary leadership structures. That is to say, he may candidly have been unaware of the distinction between Fatah and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

    I'm not one to draw clear conclusions one way or the other, but these observations are what I have to contribute to the discussion for the benefit of those that will ultimately need to draw them.—Biosketch (talk) 17:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Cptnono

    Since the concern over edit warring has been withdrawn this is only a case of POV pushing. I agree that JDE created a article that was overly emotional. It is an overtly emotional subject. We cannot punish an editor for writing about a dead baby. If he was not edit warring then he did nothing many editors would not do. So if he was not edit warring he was simply adding a POV that any rationale editor should understand. He did not edit war over it and instead let other editors counter the expected POV. When babies do not die then editors will not have to mirror the sources. Next time he should try harder but if an admin can honestly say they see a problem with an editor writing an article about an emotional subject then they need to go check out the new page patrol page. Gatoclass should accept that he made a request for enforcement on partially false pretenses and drop it. JDE should try harder to write less emotionally even when it deals with dead babies. Dead babies die in Gaza City so this statement could be reversed to apply to POV pushers on the other side. No edit warring? What is the problem Gatoclass? Cptnono (talk) 07:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Cooment by BorisG

    I agree with Biosketch. If an article appears one-sided (as this one arguably did), the right thing to do is to correct or remove the bias and include missing info, not to file an AE request. Since there was no attempt by JDE to dispute or disrupt such changes, there is no justfification for any sanction (perhaps a warning). And both sides will do well by assuming good faith and avoiding gross incivility expressed in some comments above.

    On a more general point, I think admins should consider discouraging any future AE requests by editors involved in disputes. Why? Because this page itself has become a battleground. I think this should apply to both sides. Don't know how practical this is, just an idea. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC) - BorisG (talk) 14:38, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Jalapenos do exist

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • After a brief review, the only potentially actionable problem I see is the accusation that Jalapenos do exist may have misrepresented the source when he wrote that "Fatah, the group that controls the Palestinian National Authority, released a statement by its militia", whereas the source reads: "PA officials in Ramallah expressed skepticism over a statement released by Fatah’s militia ..." This does appear to attribute responsibility to the PA and Fatah in a way that the source does not. I'd appreciate a comment by Jalapenos do exist on this matter.

      The other accusations have been withdrawn (1RR) or do not seem actionable to me: Whether the article as a whole conformed to WP:NPOV when it was created, or whether relevant information was omitted, is probably a content dispute that cannot be decided in an arbitration context.  Sandstein  22:14, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    • The first point raised by Unomi is also potentially problematic. Jalapenos do exist wrote in the article that "Hamas, the group that governs the Gaza Strip, did not claim responsibility, but stated that the incident was a Palestinian "revenge" attack on Israelis", citation marks in the original. This text is sourced to . Nowhere does this source contain the words "Hamas" or "revenge", or the assertion that Hamas did not claim responsibility, or even the assertion that Palestinians did it. That claim is attributed to "Israeli media" in the source: "Israeli media claimed that angry Palestinian attacked ...". This looks like another potential source misrepresentation.  Sandstein  23:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Apparently the source has changed in the interim.  Sandstein  20:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
    • I am unconvinced by Jalapenos do exist's explanation concerning the PA/Fatah source misrepresentation issue. I've taken note that the requesting editor now only asks for a warning. Given that non ultra petita does not apply to AE requests, we are not bound by that request to "downgrade" the sanction. Nonetheless, under these circumstances, closing the request with a warning may be prudent so as not to unnecessarily inflame tempers, and if no admin disagrees, I will do so.  Sandstein  21:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

    Tentontunic

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Tentontunic

    User requesting enforcement
    TFD (talk) 02:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Tentontunic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/#Digwuren
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Violation of 1RR:

    1. 8:30, 16 March. 2011
    2. 23:11, 16 March, 2011
    3. 0:47, 17 March, 2011
    4. 23:51, 17 March, 2011

    (2 & 3 are adding new material - 1 & 4 are deleting material.)

    Personal attacks on other editors:

    And Jonathan is wrong, it really ought to surprise me that you would restore a BIAS tag on this article, yet on left wing terrorism you remove one within a few hours. You argue on communist terrorism to no end, you appear to be tendentious in your approach to articles which may be critical of communism in fact. Did you not just get warned for just this behavior? We have here an article, about mass killings which happened under communist regimes, it does not matter how many died under capitalism, or democracy, or the rule of the evil overlords of the mole people. What matters on this article is how many died under Communist Regimes. Tentontunic (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

    Then why do I require yours? Should you try and add your proposal to the article you will require consensus, just as I do. What you have written above is little more than propaganda, and an entire waste of time. You say you wish to see a NPOV article, then please try and write in a NPOV manner. Tentontunic (talk) 00:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    I added my proposed content above today, the proposal had two editors who agreed with the inclusion, P Siebert reverted this with the edit summary, no consensus. But then proceeded to add content only he himself has agreed to. I fully intend to remove this as it is nothing more than a propaganda piece. And I should like Paul Siebert to explain why he feels justified adding content with no consensus, but removing content which at least had two people agree to and only him objecting. Tentontunic (talk) 19:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    So what your saying is, I need consensus, and you do not? As stated, what you have written is pure propaganda, there is no other way to describe it. You have basically written "these are not communists" You have given undue weight to a fringe uncited paper, you have made an entire hash of it. It`s junk and needs to be excised, at least what I had written was mainstream and neutral. Tentontunic (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by The Four Deuces (talk · contribs)
    2. Warning by Paul Siebert (talk · contribs) 20:03, 17 March, 2011
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Block or warning
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    <Your text>
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Tentontunic

    Statement by Tentontunic

    Comments by others about the request concerning Tentontunic

    Upon reading the TFD's request I realised that some comments are needed, because the way TFD represented the issue is somewhat confusing, and for an uninvolved person it is almost impossible to understand the underlying conflict. I personally believe that this request is somewhat premature, however, as far as it has been filed, we have to continue with that.
    This story starts with this Tentontunic proposal made on Feb 26, which was an absolutely correct step from the procedural point of view.
    This proposal lead to long debates, and eventually I asked Tentontunic's permission to take this text as a base and to modify it, a proposal he totally agreed with .
    I have made some changes (considerable changes), which, in my opinion, fixed accuracy and POV issues of the proposed text , and from this moment the things started to develop in a wrong way.
    Firstly, Tentontunic initially declared that the text is awful and requested for references .
    My request to explain what concretely is wrong with the text was rejected , and I had to do some time consuming job to collect needed references to address Tentontunic's request .
    When the needed references have been provided, Tentontunic stopped to respond.
    However, immediately after the article became unprotected, he added his own (initial) version of his text into the article , totally ignoring my modifications, sources and arguments.
    I added the modified version (which, in my opinion, was quite a natural step, because by abstaining from discussion Tentontunic implicitly recognised that he had no counter-arguments), and this my edit was reverted back under a pretext that there is no consensus for either proposal.
    In connection to that, I have to say that Tentontunic's understanding of the consensus policy is deeply flawed, because he believes that unsupported claims like: "" It`s junk and needs to be excised, at least what I had written was mainstream and neutral" are sufficient to remove a properly referenced text from the article. I recommend to read the discussion in the Talk:Communist terrorism#Recent changes section to get a more complete impression about this story.
    My conclusion is that, since Tentontunic is a relatively unexperienced user, it would be possibly premature to speak about serious sanctions, however he has to be seriously warned about the need to observe WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    AE is to be used for complaints related in some way to the arbitration result for Digwren. In the case at hand, this is a case of TFD using WP as a personal battleground. His actions about Tentontunic are not based on seeking NPOV on WP, but on silencing a voice he sees as opposing his. Including but limited to a remarkable series of AfDs and an egregious example (really - read this one as a sparkling example of WP:BATTLEGROUND!) where the only way he would have ever found the articles is by looking at Tentontunic's edit history and not by actually randomly seeking out articles in any specific group or for any specific rationale otherwise. AE requests by TFD against Tentontunic at , edit war complaints made at , SPI report made at showing an ongoing battleground which, properly examined, should not be held against Tentontunic. In point of fact, while Digwuren has little to do with any of this, I suggest that whoever examines this (noting Paul's rather unique view of this, and his similar views on many pages including one where he asserted that I must hold a specifc view on pseudoscience becasue I disagree with him on whether Communist terrorism is a proper topic for WP) examine the use of noticeboards repeatedly for WP:BATTLEGROUND acts. Examples of Paul's acts in this include: wherein he asserts that I was not "uninvolved" with regard to pseudoscience issues because " L2 and Collect have been extensively involved in disputes on several Communism related WP pages, such as Communist terrorism and Mass killings under Communist regimes. It is not a secret that the users working in this area frequently display more or less pronounced partisan behaviour, and, taking into account that Collect and L2 definitely belong to the opposing camps, Collect can hardly be considered as a neutral uninvolved party in a discussion about the L2 block. ... For sake of objectivity, I believe I have to explain that, since I myself also frequently participate in Communism related disputes, and since L2 and I belong to the same camp, I cannot be considered as an uninvolved party." Paul is clearly acting here as a battleground ally, and admits it as such when he improperly accused me of taking sides on a what he considered a pseudoscience issue, and where my position may be read by any arbitrator or admin. Collect (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Volunteer Marek

    This report is just another piece of evidence for the fact that WP:AE is just another weapon in the battleground toolbox, nothing more. It is the battleground, it creates battlegrounds, it makes existing battlegrounds worse, not better. You make blocks and sanctions cheap, demand for blocks and sanctions goes up. And so you get endless frivolous reports which just waste everyone's time, and embitter editors against each other.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:42, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

    Result concerning Tentontunic

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    ZjarriRrethues

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning ZjarriRrethues

    User requesting enforcement
    Athenean (talk) 02:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Final_decision#Decorum

    Misplaced Pages:ARBMAC#Final_decision#Purpose_of_Wikipedia

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    ZjarriRrethues is an editor that frequently edits Greece-related topics in a persistently tendentious, incivil manner, misusing sources and engaging in other forms of intellectual dishonesty, lately exhibiting strong signs of WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and engaging in personal vendettas. Specifically:

    Deliberate, extensive, systematic manipulation of sources

    ZjarriRrethues has become an expert at gaming Misplaced Pages's sourcing requirement to push his POV. He does so by using a variety of means, such as quoting snippets from Google Books out of context ("snippet abuse"), distorting the wording so as to completely change the meaning, selectively quoting from his own sources, and so forth.

    • A crystal-clear, recent example can be seen here , when it turns out that in fact the exact opposite is true . Incidentally, ZjarriRrethues frequently rails that M. Sakellariou is an unreliable Greek nationalist source , however, when it suits his purpose, as here, he has no problem using him.
    • Though this is the most recent instance of source fraud, it is part of a persistent, long-established pattern. Another excellent example is here , when again the exact opposite is true .
    • Also here , as pointed out here .
    • Quite brazen is also this instance here , as illustrated here .
    • Falsely adding "According to Greek media", when in fact one of the main sources used in the article is The Balkan Chronicle , which is not Greek . Piqued that he can't have his way, he then starts tagging the article in revenge (where he sees "peacockery" is beyond me).
    • Another crystal-clear example is here , when he adds that only the town of Himara is predominantly ethnic Greek, even though the source used clearly says that the entire district of Himara is such. When I point this out in the talkpage , he changes tack, attacking the source though it meets WP:V.
    • Another manifestation of egregious intellectual dishonesty is removal of sources he doesn't like on the flimsiest of grounds, for example here , even though if the Greek tribes lived south of the Zeta valley in Montenegro, that would automatically imply they lived in Albania as well. On the other hand, he doesn't mind mentioning Montenegro in the same article when it suits him .
    • Again, this isn't an isolated incident, but part of a long established pattern, e.g. here (removing the source on the grounds that it is "offline", and again here , where he removes a perfectly reliable, peer reviewed academic publication on the spurious grounds that it is "fringe, POV, and biased" (after having first removed that the region of Himara is predominantly Greek , which is what the source supports - under the bogus edit-summary of "precise").
    • Yet more tendentious editing and spurious source removal can be seen here (removing "bilingual" without explanation, even though many sources in the article attest to that). I think the point is clear by now. Months later he comes back again , apparently unable to let it rest (and again note the misleading edit summary, as he removed "bilingual" but makes no mention of that in the edit summary).
    • Quoting from sources in a highly selective manner is another favorite tactic, clearly shown in this new article he recently created , where for instance he makes sure to omit that source #1 includes the organization among organizations that are "ethno-nationalist" in nature, and also makes sure to omit information such as "However, the combination of the recent change in approach towards minority issues, together with High Court's reversing of a previous restriction on the operation of the the Turkish Union of Xanthi has served to alleviate the tension in this area" , which is critical in influencing the reader's perception. The article in general is highly POV, something which I will return to in this report.
    • Again, such behavior is nothing new, as can be seen here , where he makes sure to "omit" the rest of the relevant info from the source .
    • Other examples of tendentious editing can be seen here (highly POV re-write of the lede), here (without so much as an edit-summary), (removing the word "Greek" from an ancient Greek city in Albania that was the political center of one the local ancient Greek tribes, the Chaonians, even though the sources clearly describe it as such), (describing an extremist nationalist organization (even by the standards of the region) as "liberal nationalist" under the misleading edit summary of "precise" - by now, whenever I see an edit by Zjarri-Rrethues with the summary of "precise", I assume something's up), and it goes on (speaks for itself), and on (the source says exactly that ).
    Incivility, threats, assumptions of bad faith, contempt for others
    • Incivility and assumptions of bad faith ("...as always...", "...like always..." note that "or deductions" and "oring" is Zjarri's self-made jargon for WP:OR). Here he is taking it upon himself to remove another user's comments on the spurious grounds of WP:RANT , when in fact this is not the case. Here he is calling another editor a meatpuppet without any evidence or basis whatsoever .
    • In discussions involving content disputes, ZjarriRrethues routinely threatens other users with "I will seek admin intervention", "I will go to ANI", etc.. , in a clear attempt to intimidate other users. This has a chilling effect on discussions, and goes against the very heart of the principle of decorum.
    • When backed into an intellectual corner, he immediately starts accusations of personal attacks ("npa comments" in his own self-made jargon for WP:NPA), again in an attempt to intimidate.
    • Condescension, contempt for others: . Even simple, politely put questions are met with contemptuous sarcasm .

    The above diffs are bad enough. But what made me file this report was a recent incident, where after being unable to have his way on Ioannina Vilayet, ZjarriRrethues explicitly expressed an intention to retaliate by pushing a pro-Turkish POV on various articles (that's what the gist of the "too few Turkish editors" part). This shows a clearly vindictive and spiteful intent, and above all WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. True to his word, he creates the following highly unbalanced, POV article (for the reasons mentioned above, i.e. quoting from his sources in a highly selective manner). That the article is highly POV and unbalanced is plainly obvious (a litany of negativity), and is clearly solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users. In 6k+ edits, he has hitherto never shown the slightest interest in the Turks of Western Thrace, and now this, after his stated declaration to push a pro-Turkish POV. He has also concurrently engaged in other highly POINTy behavior, where, after I objected fact that practically every single sentence in Ioannina Vilayet begins with "According to..." , he threatens to "retaliate" on Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) , just to make a point. True to form, he does just that . This is pure WP:POINT: He has never shown the slightest interest in that article up until now, he is merely using the article to make the point that since Justin McCarthy is used as a source in Ioannina Vilayet without the qualifier "According to", then I shouldn't object to him being used with the qualifier in the Greco-Turkish War article. Inane, petty, and POINTy.

    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    User has been warned of ARBMAC sanctions in the past, and sanctioned as well .

    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Topic ban from anything to do with Greece, Greeks, Greek editors, etc...
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    ZjarriRrethues is the classic example of a national POV advocate who has found ways of gaming the wikipedia environment so as to largely avoid sanction. Yet, while in perhaps isolation most of the above diffs may not be deserving of a topic ban, the overall picture is one of a user who has engaged in persistent, systematic disruption and abuse of the system. His incivility and contempt for other makes it impossible to collaborate with him. There are many users I have had disagreements with, but none so implacably hostile and impossible to work with as ZjarriRrethues. His persistent gaming of the sourcing requirement is particularly insidious, as it is difficult to detect and even more difficult to point out. But the recent POINTy, vindictive behavior goes beyond any past disruption and raises the disruption to the next level. I have lived with ZjarriRrethues' POV-pushing for over a year now, and I have never before taken him to AE, partly because I understand that we are all human and have our national backgrounds and POVs. To push one's national POV is bad enough. But to want to retaliate against users of a certain nationality by explicitly stating an intention to push a particular POV that he knows would annoy them is the epitome of a spiteful, vindictive, disposition and is a sanctionable instance of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and breach of decorum. This user has shown some capability of being productive in topics that have no relation to Greece or Greeks, but I am convinced that, for whatever reason, he has an axe to grind with that particular country.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning ZjarriRrethues

    Statement by ZjarriRrethues

    • I don't see any violation of any policy by any of my edits. I have written many good articles, some of which are related to WikiProject Greece and they were featured on DYK. I've written DYK content that is related to WikiProject Greece, while the user who reported me has been following my edits since the time I signed up to wikipedia and making constant reports regarding me.
    • My contributions to Greece-related articles include:
    1. Lamiskos
    2. Song_of_Marko_Boçari
    3. Battle_of_Achelous_(1359)
    4. Church_of_St_Athanasius_of_Mouzaki
    5. ]
    6. Kastri,_Thesprotia
    7. Belegezites
    8. Sagudates
    9. Tasos_Neroutsos
    10. Vangelis_Liapis
    11. Gregory_IV_of_Athens
    12. Turkish Union of Xanthi


    • I received an interaction ban in the past because I reported Athenean i.e my ban wasn't edit-related. Athenean has reported me twice to SPI, some other times to admins and now to AE. All the reports contain phrases like the spiting Greek users one and many attributions of nationalist motives to me. If I was a nationalist I wouldn't refute sources that say that Albanians became emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD(i.e prove the existence of a concrete Albanian ethnic identity), while they were first attested in the 11th century AD in historical records. What kind of nationalist wouldn't want to prove that his nation is half a millenium older?


    • Athenean says that my article Turkish Union of Xanthi is highly POV(although it did pass the DYK review by a much more experienced user with 31k edits), so the verdict on the article's pov is on that and if someone wants to add that it's a nationalist or any other kind of organization he should add it. Btw Athenean saying that the article is solely intended to portray Greece in as negative a light as possible as a way of spiting Greek users is excessively inappropriate. I wrote the Turkish Union of Xanthi and I also wrote Lamiskos. Does the Lamiskos article also show that grossly negative intention that is being attributed to me constantly by Athenean?


    ]

    • Regarding the Battle of Bizani, which Athenean labels as an excellent example of source fraud: This is the quote from the source and this is my edit , which is a precise quote from the work, so the verdict is on the comparison. Regarding the National Republican League a Greek user claimed that one of the sources shouldn't be used because it was connected with the Communist resistance groups and I accepted it, however the part that isn't related to that is undisputed and other Greek users accepted it .
    • Regarding Kastoria: This is entirely WP:IDONTLIKEIT because the edits I made use as sources also Greek authors and there's no misuse .
    • Regarding the Death of Aristotelis Goumas isn't WP:PEACOCK when Athenean the creator of the articles wrote sentences like The death sent shockwaves through the ethnic Greek community of Albania of course I added such tags. In Himarë one of the sources that I removed as offline then was indeed offline since you had to buy the book to verify it and it didn't even have snippet view option, while the source that among others says that there were Albanian emperors of the Byzantine Empire in the 4-5th century AD is unreliable and fringe since Albanians were attested for the first time many centuries later. If I was an Albanian nationalism pov-pushing user, why would I support its unreliability instead of using it to prove the existence of an Albanian identity many centuries before the current wikipedia version?
    • Regarding the Zeta valley issue deductions like that implies automatically... are WP:OR i.e Athenean should find a source that says ancient Greek tribes lived in northern Albania along the Shkoder lake opposite to the Zeta valley, instead of assuming that it is automatically implied...
    • Phoenice was for some centuries an important city of the Chaonians, but in the 3rd century AD it was conquered by Rome and it became a Roman city and remained such until the end of its existence in the 6th century AD. Would you label as an ancient Greek city a settlement that belonged to such tribes from the 5th to 3rd century and for the next 700-800 years it belonged to the Roman and after the 4th century AD to the Eastern Roman Empire?
    • Regarding the Byzantine Empire: Was the Byzantine Empire a predominantly Greek-speaking empire(similar to saying Was the Roman Empire a predominantly Latin-speaking Empire?)? It wasn't a predominantly Greek-speaking Empire, because although coine Greek became official at some point the native language of the majority of its citizens wasn't coine Greek. Btw that didn't even have a source, so of course it was WP:OR.
    • Regarding Kanun it's a word that entered Albanian dictionary via Ottoman Turkish, which acquired from Arabic i.e not via Arabic but via Turkish.
    • Regarding my comments about Turkey-related articles Athenean says that I expressed an intention for Turkish pov-pushing, which I didn't express.
    • When some users WP:IDHT any kind of argument, it's obvious that you have to start RfCs, ask admin intervention, go to relevant boards i.e that's not attempt to intimidate other users as Athenean says.

    Comments by others about the request concerning ZjarriRrethues

    Result concerning ZjarriRrethues

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.