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Revision as of 05:31, 28 March 2011

This article was nominated for deletion on 18 March 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Proposed rivolous deletion request

I am not sure how one could claim this article to be wp:event, if there was a new Act passed by US Congress and named for one of the victims! I am not sure how one could claim this article to be wp:event, if there was a foundation and a comedy tour created for one of the victims. I am not sure how one could claim this article to be wp:event, if the article is sourced for 2001,2010 and 2011! May I please recommend you to take the template off ASAP. It is a bad faith edit.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:12, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

You can always take it down without discussion, but than a discussion of the AfD begins. Also, the things that followed seriously lack notability, where I'm from when someone dies there is a very good chance a trust is started in their name- awards, grants, parks, buildings, scholarships, and so on, so these don't really add notability. Passionless -Talk 19:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Really? What about US congress Act? Is there "a very good chance" for that to occur too? Listen, please don't take neither mine time not yours, better take the template out, or nominate the article on deletion, and let the wider community to decide.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

And how many "murders" get mentioned in books by a different authors. Really your template for this article was added with the only reason: I just don't like it --Mbz1 (talk) 19:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The US congress act which was made a year or two later, has no mention of the murder victim outside of the title. It is a quite general act which does not appear to be in response to the incident. It would be like naming a car-safety bill after a random person who died in a car crash, the bill was needed regardless and is in response to the whole situation, not just one small event. Oh, oops I put the template for 'uncontroversial page deletion'....uh, how do I add the correct one that starts the !vote?? Passionless -Talk 19:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I've no idea. I usually write articles, and do not nominate ones on deletion.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The event already has an article, it's called Koby Mandell. The information is largely the same. They should just be merged, problem solved. —Ynhockey 19:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I saw the article Koby Mandell, but I am strongly oppose merging the articles. Koby should has an article on his own, but this article should be a separate one. --Mbz1 (talk) 19:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

According to WP:BLP1E they should be merged. But that would be if the people/event was notable enough to survive deletion under WP:EVENT,WP:VICTIM, and WP:BIO1E. Passionless -Talk 20:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I removed the merge template for now. First we have to see what will be the result of DRs. Merge template just adds to confusion.--Mbz1 (talk) 20:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Mbz1, I will accept your suggestion to wait for the end of the AfD, but please don't remove merge templates in the future. Merge templates should only be removed if either the request if obviously frivolous (i.e. can be considered vandalism), or there's a consensus not to merge over a long enough period (usually 1 week, similar to AfD). —Ynhockey 21:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I support the merge per WP:BIO1E - to be coarse, the kid did nothing aside from get killed that would merit a separate article on him and on the murder. Please note also that the Koby Mandell Act never passed and as such does not confer notability. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:17, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the Act did pass--Mbz1 (talk) 01:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

That source doesn't support that claim, but I found a Forward blurb about Congress passing it and a JPost opinion piece which indicates that it was signed, so I'll add those. We should be able to do better than this, though. Is there no actual news coverage of its being signed? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

wheee Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Final clarification (as I wrote in the article): the bill itself was never passed, but elements of it were added to an omnibus spending bill, which passed. Per Jewish Journal source. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Really

You must know that "Scottish Friends of Israel" is not a WP:RS. Must I take it to WP:RSN? Passionless -Talk 21:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Please go ahead.--Mbz1 (talk) 22:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't recall seeing a response from an experienced editor that has seemed more intentionally disruptive to me. Anyone who's been active here for more than a month or two would instantly recognize that a wholly unreferenced collection of claimed quotations put up by a partisan advocacy group isn't even close to being a reliable source, and Passionless was right to credit you with that knowledge.

To cite to such a source in the first place, and then to abuse our process by forcing another editor to start an RSN thread to expunge it speaks volumes about your priorities here. You need to exercise far more respect for the integrity of the encyclopedia and the policies designed to protect it, and you need to let that overrule your private political interests and motivations. I'm sorry to have to speak this directly about so basic a matter to an experienced editor, but if you can't do that for some reason then you have no business editing here.  – OhioStandard (talk) 11:59, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of sourced information

user:passionless removed a section that was sourced by wp:RS because ... who knows why. Please revert yourself and discuss any feature substantial edits to the article before you make them.--Mbz1 (talk) 02:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I did explain that edit, it was located in the edit summary which said- "coatrack, synth, not sure, but I know it has nothing to do with the murders from 2001." And as I said that section has no relevance to the murders of 2001. Passionless -Talk 02:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Accusations spouted as fact

There is no source which says Palestinians committed the attack, many say they believe Palestinians committed the attack, but of course this is only an accusation and people are innocent until proven guilty, which I believe no was has been, correct? The anonymous phone call also adds nothing as the phone call might have come from anywhere, even Sharon himself could have made that call which blamed Palestinians. Passionless -Talk 02:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It sure is , and besides who else could deep their hand in the victims blood and smear it around?--Mbz1 (talk) 03:34, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

That's way out of line, dude. Stick to discussing the sources and don't make gratuitous racist comments. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Where do you see a racist comment? Yes, I hate terrorists whatever nationality, ethnicity and religion they belong to. Any problems with that?--Mbz1 (talk) 04:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

"Who else but a Palestinian could dip his hands in blood" is racist, yes. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:05, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

No, not Palestinians, Palestinian terrorists. Are you capable of seeing the difference? And yes, I do not know about anybody else, but Palestinian terrorists, who did in all the curse of I/P conflict. --Mbz1 (talk) 04:18, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Then perhaps you shouldn't have brought up this random thing in response to problems in the sourcing of "Palestinians" - it suggests that you don't see a difference, and since you claim that you do, it's an odd connection to make. Are we done here? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Did you see anywhere in the article that it accused Palestinians of doing this? No,in two or three places it is talking about the attackers, it says "Palestinian terrorists". And, no, we are not done with that until your comment is not stricken out.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:27, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah well. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:30, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Anyone with a hand could of course. Mhhh, personally I don't trust information from non-textbook books anymore than I trust facts comnig out of fiction novels. They have no legal duty to supply the truth, well to the extent of causing harm, unlike news sources, and they do not rely on respect or have peer reviewing like many other sources do. Passionless -Talk 03:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Review of conflicting sources does not support a conclusion

No one has been charged by a prosecutor with this crime, never mind convicted. And despite the same-day wholesale arrest by "security forces" (does that mean the IDF?) "of 20 Palestinians from villages in the area, seeking to determine if they were involved in the brutal murders," as the Jerusalem Post put it, it's my understanding that the Judea and Samaria police, who were in charge of the case, never claimed to have a viable suspect, and that no proof was presented that even identified the perpetrator or perpetrators as Palestinian.

And while my guess is that this probably was an ethnically-motivated hate crime, any number of alternative suppositions are plausible as well. To identify just one example, in an area that wasn't rife with sectarian violence the first conclusion that would be supposed in the murder of two 13 or 14-year-old boys (reports differ re their age) in a secluded area would have been that an attempted seduction or rape by some pervert had been escalated to murder when the intended victims refused, resisted, or threatened to inform authorities.

Despite the scarcity of actual facts, speculation was rife, and most of it was hostile to Palestinians. Although the investigation had barely begun, and as the Daily Mail observed, "The circumstances of the boys' deaths, which shocked the local community and heightened tensions, were unclear",

• Spokesman Raffia Yaffe ( some sources report his as a "police spokesman", others as a political one ) is variously cited by different news organizations as having said (pick one) he suspected Palestinians were responsible, that they appeared to be responsible, or that they were responsible. None of the sources mention him as having provided any evidence to support whatever it was he actually said. He made his statements the same day the bodies were found, 9 May, 2001.

• Raffia Yaffe also seems to have been the first person to introduce the idea to the media that the boys were "stoned to death", a description which suggests a very different image than that of an assailant using a rock as a bludgeon to crush a victim's skull, which appears to be what happened based on the actual details reported.

• The Daily Mail reported that an unnamed police commander told Israel Radio from the scene that there was no doubt that this was "a murder for nationalistic reasons," but the same article also cites a settler security chief, Dov Weinstock, as saying "the killers may have been thieves who, acting impulsively, killed the youths using 'natural weapons' such as stones." Settlers said 100 goats were stolen from the adjacent village that same night, one-quarter mile away from the cave in which the boys' bodies were discovered; this is the theft alluded to.

• In a 10 May, 2001 article, the New York Times confirmed the "chance encounter" hypothesis, reporting "The police said that they believed the two boys had died in an apparent chance encounter with their attackers," and also reported the theft of 100 goats. But the NYT also wrote "the police said they did not know whether the theft was related to the killings," a statement that was also reported by other sources.

• The Jerusalem Post article cited below disputes this, however, saying "Police said they did not believe there was a link" between the crimes.

• A 10 May, 2001 Jerusalem Post article said anonymous calls were made to foreign media outlets (but apparently not to the Jerusalem Post) claiming the caller's group, which he identified as "Hizbullah-Palestine", was responsible. This appears to be the only source presently cited in our article that mentions any such call or calls. Perhaps the other sources cited in our article didn't consider the assertion credible, or couldn't determine that any such calls were actually made? One could reasonably suppose that if a media outlet received such a call, and considered it credible, that they would have reported it themselves. The JP article gives no details about the timing of the call or calls it says were made to other media outlets, but it's my inference from that article and others that Israel radio, and perhaps television news, too, had already reported the murders before anyone claimed responsibility.

• Also the same day the bodies were discovered, Ariel Sharon, asserted it as a fact that "Palestinian terrorists" were responsible. He also reiterated Yaffe's "stoned to death" characterization. Some media outlets report it as fact that "Palestinian terrorist stoned the boys to death", others merely quote Sharon and, in one way or another, Yaffe. No evidence was claimed or presented for the assertion that the murderer(s?) were Palestinian, or to show that the unknown perpetrator(?) acted out of a political/terrorist motive.

• The Palestinian Authority says it has no idea who was responsible for the murders, and condemns the killings, as does chief Palestinian negotiator, and member of the Palestinian cabinet, Saeb Erekat: "The Palestinian Authority regrets the loss of life of these two boys and all children, be it Israeli or Palestinian, Jewish, Muslim or Christian." He added that, "killing civilians is a crime whether on the Palestinian or the Israeli side", and that "the short way for peace and stability is finishing the Israeli occupation". Palestinian minister for Jerusalem, Ziad Abu-Zayyad warned against premature conclusions based on speculations, saying "Let's wait and see what are the real reasons as to what happened". ( See quotation and Realplayer audio link at the left margin of this BBC article.

• Despite the initial wholesale arrests, no one was ever charged in the murders.

• A single-sentence, unattributed mention in 2003 book by Harvey Kushner said "Islamic Jihad and a Palestinian splinter group of Hezbollah" were responsible.

• Another single-sentence, equally unattributed mention in a different 2008 book by Barry and Judith Rubin claims Islamic Jihad was responsible.

• In a 2008 Jerusalem Post piece that's not currently included in our article , Caroline Glick asserts that "Bedouin shepherds" may have been responsible.

• In her book, Aliya, author Leil Leibovitz writes with apparent omniscience (or alarming creativity) that the boys "came upon a group of Palestinian cattle rustlers (sic) who attacked them ... then hiding their bodies in a nearby cave, using the boys' blood to write anti-Semitic screeds on the cave's walls." It's possible I missed something, but this appears to be the only source cited in the article for the claim of any anti-Semitic writing in blood or in any other medium. As regards the other statements made by Leibovitz that aren't supported by any source I'm currently aware of, I can only guess that the fact-checkers at St. Martin's Press were all out sick that day.

The only legitimate conclusion from all this is that no one knows who killed these two boys, and no one knows why. All we really know is that they were murdered, and that their deaths were tragic. We can report the assertions of Israeli political figures that it was Palestinians acting out of terrorist motives who were responsible, and we can report the media reaction that echoed those assertions so prolifically. But I maintain that it would be absolutely irresponsible to report those assertions in Misplaced Pages's voice as if they were established facts when they are so very obviously just speculation made by persons who cannot, by any stretch of imagination, be called uninvolved or impartial observers. Can anyone really dispute that?  – OhioStandard (talk) 17:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I wholly agree, no one has been charged with the murders, no one is even a wanted suspect in the murders, therefore we can not say who dunit or even allude to who dunit. Even if some books write that Palestinians did it well I think that by stating such a fact that makes them into a NRS as it must be a lie. Passionless -Talk 17:30, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Two murderous and antisemitic Palestinian terror groups claimed responsibility for the horrific slaughter. Broccolo (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

okay...do you have a reliable source that says this? Right now the article is saying that an anonomyous phone call blamed the attacks on Palestinians, and in reality no one has been found guilty of committing the crime. Passionless -Talk 19:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

How the foregoing applies to this article

The statements I made in the preceding section apply directly to this article, in its current form. For example, this section, as it currently exists in our article relies much on this ABC news source. But the only content currently included from that source is that Ariel Sharon apologized for the death of a Palestinian infant, and an accusation by Sharon that the Palestinian Authority encourages violence against Israelis. That exact same ABC News report, however, also says that

"The two Israeli teenagers were the latest victims in more than seven months of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians that has claimed the lives of 143 Palestinians under the age of 18", and although "Sharon blamed the Palestinian Authority for the killings", the Authority's response was as follows: "But while expressing regret for the loss of life, a Palestinian official today said he had no idea who was responsible for the attack."

The same ABC News article reports, "Since September, the fighting has claimed 437 lives on the Palestinian side and 73 on the Israeli side." That, too, was passed over by those who have edited this article so far, as was the mention in the USA Today article of the most common mainstream media view that it was Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, an area known to Muslims as Al-Haram Al-Sharif, that touched off the wave of violence that these murders have been presumed to be a part of. USA Today also reported that Sharon's vow to continue building Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank and in Gaza has also fueled Palestinian anger. But as our article is currently written, Sharon is presented only as the spokesman for an outraged Israeli public.

These were horrific murders, no one denies that. But even if we accept the unproven claims of Israeli spokesmen that they must have been committed by Palestinians as acts of calculated terrorism, it's fair to say that they didn't happen in a vacuum, either. Our current article presents so little context as to give the false impression that they did.

The death toll statistics for kids reported by an article from The Guardian that our own article also cites are different from those reported by ABC News. But our current article doesn't mention the stats from that article, either, which report that far more Palestinian kids were killed in the then-current wave of violence than were Israeli kids: "In the past seven months of violence, dozens of Palestinian minors and at least six Israelis under the age of 18 have been among the victims."

Further, and quite disturbingly, our current article presents it as an absolute certainty that this was politically-motivated terrorism committed by Palestinians. That's certainly possible, and it may well have been the case. But our current article neglects to mention that the murderers were never identified by the police, despite the fact that, according to a Jerusalem Post article our own article cites, Israeli "security forces had arrested 20 Palestinians from villages in the area, seeking to determine if they were involved in the brutal murders." Nor is it disclosed in our article that the multiple news sources it cites also mention speculation by Israeli police that the killings might have been related to the theft of "dozens of goats" or "around 100" (depending on which source one believes) from a village half-a-mile away, that same night. This information, too, is excluded from our article, presumably because it would detract from the view it presents that these murders were a calculated act of politically-motivated terrorism.

Apologies for the long comments here, but I know this is a place that many of my friends on both sides of Misplaced Pages's I/P wars will notice. My hope is that these comments might cause at least some editors to reconsider the way they edit here in light of their own deeply-held values of honesty and integrity, without which we all become something less than fully human.

Selah re that last sentence, if you please, and thank you for undertaking the difficult challenge of considering views that you might, incorrectly, and at first glance, be inclined to dismiss out of hand as merely being opposed to your support for the policies of the current government of Israel.  – OhioStandard (talk) 08:26, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Your comments are far into TLDR territory. Please raise specific concerns in a concise manner. Also stop whining about editors, especially if it's only about editors from "one side."--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 13:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm deeply concerned that my whining might have been viewed as uncivil, Brew. I'll try to keep it in check.  – OhioStandard (talk) 17:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

@Brew, In very short, Ohio said that no one has been found guilty therefore we must say that the perps are unknown. He also states that there is a lack of context, namely that many children are dying in this conflict and this must be presented within the article. Passionless -Talk 17:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Who did it?

A few sources that confirmed that two Palestinian terror groups claimed responsibility for the murder were discussed here. Three users confirmed that all those are reliable sources. Yes, a few sources that describe the murder at the time it happened say that Israeli soldiers checked (arrested) a few Palestinian villagers and a few Kurdish people. I did not add that info to the article in purpose because the books that were used to source the identity of the murderers were written a few years after the murder with much more information available to the authors. I would not like to put even a shadow of suspicion in this horrific murder neither on Palestinian villagers nor on Kurdish people. They could not have done it.

About claiming responsibility. Yes, a few sources reported an anonymous caller, who claimed it was done by a terror group, but if that group did not do it, what prevented them from calling to news papers and explaining that the caller lied? They were accused in horrific crime, why not to say they did not do it, if they did not it? Besides the fact that murders were never caught indicates that the murder was not committed by an accidental person. It is one way to steal a sheep or two, or even to shot somebody, and quite another to stone somebody to death over and over and over again.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

A single article in the Jerusalem Post said that some foreign news agencies were called anonymously by someone claiming to be a representative for "a group called Hizbullah-Palestine." The Jerusalem Post did not claim to have received any such a call itself, and no other news agency appears to have reported receiving such a call. And that initial JP report wasn't even upheld by a subsequent Jerusalem Post article, written in 2008 by Carolyn Glick. She suggested that Bedouin shepherds were responsible. You say "a few sources" reported the anonymous caller. Perhaps I missed some: Are you aware of any news report aside from that one JP article that made the claim, or, more importantly, any news agency that reported actually receiving such a call?

Re the books you cite: We have a single unreferenced sentence about the event in the 2002 book Encyclopedia of terrorism that attributes it to both Islamic Jihad and a different group, described as a Palestinian splinter group of Hezbollah. A 2003 book, The New Anti-Semitism, which you added as an external link, mentions it in one sentence, but without speculation as to motive or perpetrators. A 2004 book, Dilemmas Of Weak States includes two sentences about the killings, the first of which incorrectly identifies one of the boys' place of residence. The second one says that both Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah-Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack but, again, no reference is provided for the statement. Another unreferenced single-sentence mention in the 2007 book Chronologies of modern terrorism blames Islamic Jihad. A short passage in a fourth book you introduced into the article, Aliya, also published in 2007, attributes the murders to "Palestinian cattle rustlers" that the boys came upon by chance, and the author describes this imagined encounter from the perspective of an omniscient observer, as if it were fact. That's a high-quality source if ever there was one.

It's my opinion that these single-sentence assertions in compilations of Israeli victims, with no indication given as to what the assertions might be based on ( that one Jerusalem Post article, perhaps, that wasn't confirmed by any agencies saying they actually received such a call? ) cannot be taken as proof of anything. If, as that one JP article reported, other news agencies received such calls, they would certainly have reported them if they'd found them credible. And if the books you cite have any evidence besides that JP article, or beyond preceding books that might also have been based on it, then they should have presented that.

One other source I saw said the cave where the boys' bodies were found had been claimed by Palestinian kids for their exclusive use; it was a popular hangout, just a couple hundred meters from the village. It suggested that as a possible motive, and of all the many that have been suggested, it seems the most plausible to me. That's just a guess, as are all the other suppositions that have been advanced. It would be consistent with the use of improvised weapons (rocks), and with statements made by several sources, including the police and settler security personnel, that this appeared to be a crime of opportunity rather than some well-planned militia-led attack. Are you suggesting that militia from outside the village knew in advance that the kids would skip school that day, and targeted them intentionally? That doesn't seem plausible to me.

Israeli political figures rushed to announce accusations against Palestinian militia immediately after the bodies were discovered, when the investigation was just hours old. The announcement of such very premature conclusions as if they were facts was very irresponsible. News agencies tripped all over themselves to run with those very accusations, but they're not what the local police chief who was actually in charge of the investigation said. He said it was a complex investigation, there were many factors that needed attention, and it would take time to complete, as I recall. The police simply don't know who was responsible, a fact that has been completely excluded from the article in its current form.

I'll close by asking you to remove the external link you added, to The New Anti-Semitism. That the book states, in a single sentence, that the boys were killed is not a sufficient basis for its inclusion as an external link. Besides that, it gets the boys' ages wrong, saying they were both 14, and book reviews describe it as not being a scholarly work.  – OhioStandard (talk) 03:01, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

An anonymous phone caller claimed the murders were in revenge for the death of a four-month-old Palestinian baby hit by shrapnel during bombardment of Gaza

An anonymous caller to Reuters claimed responsibility for the boys killings in the name of an Islamic militant group, saying they were to avenge the death of the four-month baby and an Islamic Jihad militant on Saturday.--Mbz1 (talk) 03:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Otherwise as it is seen from the link I provided above RS/N decided the sources are reliable, so your opinions on this aren't relevant--Mbz1 (talk) 03:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

My opinions aren't relevant? You've been reading How to Win Friends and Influence People again, I suppose? I notice you left out "The call could not be authenticated" from the Independent article. If Reuters had believed the call was credible they would have reported it themselves. One news agency reporting that another one received a call that it apparently didn't believe in doesn't impress me much.

And you apparently overlooked this, in that same article, which supports speculation made by settler security personnel that the theft of 100 goats ( only a couple of sources say "sheep" ) that night was related:

Israeli police investigators believe the boys were killed by Palestinians in what may have been a chance encounter. Tekoa residents said sheep had been stolen not far from the site of the killing.

Further, reliable source reports have explicitly stated that the police don't know who killed the boys.

And you're seriously trying to uphold the case that Aliya is a reliable source? Seriously? That's as absurd as the claim you made above that the list of unreferenced quotations given at the "Scottish Friends of Israel" site was a reliable source. I find it impossible to believe that you don't know better than that.  – OhioStandard (talk) 04:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course "The call could not be authenticated". If it were authenticated, it would not have been anonymous call.

I am not sure if Reuters did not report the call. I do not believe I saw an article by them.

Here's yet another source that names terror groups responsible.

About your attacking the used sources and me, I have known for a long time you have difficulties assuming good faith, and you have been asked to tone down your comments at this very page already.

I am not interested in continuing this discussion with you. Because if somebody like that is telling me that I "no business editing here" it sounds not only uncivil, but rather laughable.

The article was nominated on deletion and kept 15 to 1 (2 with the nominator counted).

If you have a problem with me using particular sources, you're welcome to take me to ae and try to make me topic banned. Otherwise I am done with you here. --Mbz1 (talk) 05:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

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