Talk:Rajput: Difference between revisions

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	I personally own a lot of these potraits of Maharajas, my personal collection, so no copyright issues involved, however I am waiting to have the ban lifted so that I may contribute to the article. ] 22:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)		I personally own a lot of these potraits of Maharajas, my personal collection, so no copyright issues involved, however I am waiting to have the ban lifted so that I may contribute to the article. ] 22:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


			==Lying==
			Impumozzhi you have been exposed on ]. What will it take to make you stop lying?.
			=] 10:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 10:13, 4 March 2006

Template:Wikiproject History of India

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Previous discussions:

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rajput

The arbitration committee has reached a final decision in the case associated with this article.

For the arbitration committee. --Tony Sidaway 22:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

1) Shivraj Singh (talk · contribs) (and all sockpuppets) is banned from editing Rajput and related articles.

2) DPSingh (talk · contribs) (and all sockpuppets) is banned from editing Rajput and related articles.

3) Gurkhaboy (talk · contribs) (and all sockpuppets) is banned from editing Rajput and related articles.

4) All users listed as the "Hindus only side" at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Rajput/Evidence#involved_users are banned from editing Rajput and related articles.

5) All editors of Rajput are reminded of the necessity to more or less follow the core Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and Misplaced Pages:Citing sources. Advocates of an Islamic point of view are specially reminded that Rajput is a noble Hindu caste and that the bulk of the information in the article should reflect that reality.

Any party banned by this decision who violates the ban may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeat offenses. After 5 blocks the maximum ban shall increase to one year. Blocks are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Rajput#Documentation_of_blocks_and_bans

move and move back

The old article was entitled 'Rajput', but instead of dealing with all Rajputs generally, it dealt only with Rajputs as a Hindu caste. Not only that, but it also had a very slanted POV.

So I moved the old article, unaltered, to Rajput (Hindu caste).

This new article is intended to deal with all Rajputs in general, and not just those who subscribe to one particular religion.

--Bhola 19:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Bhola, that's grabbing the article for one side of the dispute, with a vengeance. Even though Shivraj and his buds are banned, I think they must represent a fairly widespread view in contemporary India, riven as it is by communal controversies. Their view should be represented. Zora 20:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Aha. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I'm fairly new to Misplaced Pages, and didn't realize how long and heated the debate over this article has been. In haste, I took the advice of be bold in updating pages without reading the discussion and history of the page. I didn't mean to grab the article for any side of the dispute, nor was my move motivated by any vengeance towards anyone. I don't know Shivraj or his buds and didn't intend to exclude anyone's views. That's why I didn't make any changes to the article when I moved it. For the record I still think that moving this existing communally-exclusive article was a good idea, as was the idea of starting a new non-communal 'Rajput' article at this location. Bhola 21 February 2006

Furthermore, you give absolutely no references supporting your claims to such huge Muslim Rajput populations. Zora 20:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right that I didn't cite my references but it seems to me that a great deal of claims are made by other contributors to this article who don't give any legitimate references either. Are the claims that I made any less credible than theirs? Do my claims need to be singled out for special scrutiny while theirs don't? Nevertheless, I can cite my references if you're interested. I got my figures from sources that I thought were reputable, such as 'The Historical Atlas of South Asia' edited by Joseph Schwartzberg (Oxford University Press, 1992), and from official government publications from pre-partition British India, like 'The Imperial Gazetteer of India' (1909-1922) and from portions of the Ethnographic Survey of India (another official government project), such as 'A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province' (1911-19) and 'The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh" by (1896). The data in all of those books come from the results of censuses. Bhola 21 February 2006

Bhola -- if you've got real references, great. They have been in short supply here. Give figures, dates, and then footnote with the exact source and page where you got them. Then if others disagree, they have to come up with competing references. We don't need to come to conclusion -- we can just say "these references imply A and these references imply B" and let readers draw their own conclusions. Zora 03:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why it is imagined, at this point, that the main Rajput article will reflect only the PoV of those who have been banned yesterday. Extremely counter-intuitive --- anyway, IMO, it is possible to write an eminently NPOV and understated article, making mention of "Muslim Rajputs" while keeping within the Arbcom's admonition that "Advocates of an Islamic point of view are specially reminded that Rajput is a noble Hindu caste and that the bulk of the information in the article should reflect that reality". Let us work on that, and abandon this unwarranted fork. ImpuMozhi 21:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

hm, what's going on? where are all the talk archives? Why the wild forking? I am hoping we will have a chance of disecting the issue in peace now and pinning the various aspects of the term into neat sections, like butterflies, just like we boring encyclopedists like our material, neatly labelled and spread out. "The Rajputs are a noble Hindu caste and that the bulk of the information in the article should reflect that reality" indeed. I think this is undisputed. What we need to do is cleanup the unorganized state of the article, and minimize overlap between this article and the related History of Rajputs and Rajputs and invasions of India. More than half of the present article can be deleted as already covered there. Please do not refactor this article without taking these sub-articles into account also. If we keep Muslim Rajputs as a separate article, it needs its own short section here, and will be a sub-article of this one. dab (ᛏ) 14:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

ah, the archives are now at Talk:Rajput (Hindu caste) thanks to the kneejerk fork. They should be merged back here. dab (ᛏ) 14:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Please use your divine admin powers to undo Bhola's rename and move, which was done without any consultation with other editors. Zora 18:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I moved it back and merged the talk page histories. dab (ᛏ) 21:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Tidy up

I am wondering. This article is focussing on Rajastani exploits of rajputs, but we know rajputs had kingdoms in Punjab also and if we were to include ALL such exploits for fairness then we would have an overly HUGE page. In it's present form it's already too long and not enough elaboration on an actual rajput and the different clans. We could possible include where each tribe ruled majorly in it's times instead as a reference rather than an entire 'article within an article'?

Im also removing the point that no further Muslim conquests took place in the 9th century due to the formidable reputation of the rajputs as there is no proof of this from the middle eastern side to corroborate this, so it's more a 'proud assumption' rather than proof I think? Please feel free to correct me guys. I've also done a tidy up of 'language' in the history section of where unencyclopedic words such as 'treacherously' and 'crushed' have been replaced suitably.

Can other editors help in this respect with other sections?

Looking better guys, let's keep up the good work.--Raja 22:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

We need to cast this into Misplaced Pages:Summary style. This is the main article and should give easy access to all specialized Rajput-related sub-articles. Specifically, it is about the people (ethnologically). Material already at History of Rajputs and Rajputs and invasions of India should be very briefly summarized, with the use of {{main}}. Please do match the content of this article to the content of the history articles and see how this article may be shortened without loss of information. dab (ᛏ) 22:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Resigning Misplaced Pages membership

I am resigning my wikipedia membership effective immediately.

Rajputs remember a few things:

Arbcom has decided against me NOT BECAUSE OF THE CONTENT OF RAJPUT ARTICLE but how I dealt with the intervention of Bachman. Arbcom DOES NOT DECIDE ON THE CONTENTS OF THE ARTICLES. So is communicated to me by Charles Matthews of Arbcom.

Also for the record Arbcom never asked me to provide any evidence against Bachman. Infact no body from the rajput side presented any evidence at all. Arbcom unilaterally decided based only on Bachman's one sided evidence! Also at one point arbcom considered desysopping Bachman.

Bachman has a racist mindset as is evident from his comments here so do not let him bully you:

Bachman,Zora and in general the entire muslim side operates without references and pushes references without having read a single one of them.

References on the rajput page (look for my last save) are pretty much complete.

Impumozhi is another person who reads a few websites and thinks he is an expert. See his blatant lies discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Rathore. Read the entire section of the heading "Impumozhi is a liar". So do not let him have a free reign on rajput related articles.

Lastly these were the pages on my watchlist and it would be nice for one of the fellow rajputs to look after them.

Akbar

Ala ud din Khilji

Alwar

Aryan invasion theory

Lalitaditya Muktapida

Maharaja Jaswant Singh

Second Battle of Tarain

Shivraj Singh 02:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Its a sad day in the history of the Rajputs. Sisodia 02:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

the arbcom found,

The ip addresses used by Shivraj Singh created Shreeharsha123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Srichandp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Alidiare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Shirazian69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Sroy05 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

so, do you mean "resign", or "change socks"? I am tired of being called names over upholding WP fundamentals, either here or on my talk. Could someone bother removing the PAs above? dab (ᛏ) 18:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Sock puppets are back

The sock puppets of old have returned it appears. Can something be done about this as it's not progressing the article at all.

I've removed some bias propoganda material at the end of the article re Muslim conversion as it is irrelevant and antagonistic here. Also contained points that Hinduism was solely saved by rajputs which is in my opinion insulting to the non rajput hindu populace as well as a baseless assumption.

Cross references to other rajastani rajputs is also something I think should be removed as they have their own articles. We can provide names as references instead as a link? They take up too much space and are tainted with propoganda. (Why not mention all of the hundreds of other Rajput kings in that case? Im not recommending this, but displaying my point)--Raja 15:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Featured article

This article definitely has the scope to become a featured article. However, massive cleanup of the article is required. --Spartian 17:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

quite massive, yes. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

images

This article is supposed to be about a people, right? Caste, ethnicity, nation, whatever. I note that there is no single photograph of a person. Instead, people seem to prefer to add architecture, statues and heroic drawings on postage stamps. I happened to add a 19th century photograph of actual Rajputs. Whatever happened to that? There should, of course, be photos of contemporary people. Make sure that the article is not dominated by the "History" section. We have History of Rajputs for that, alright? Give a tight summary of that here, but don't dwell on it. Give contemporary population statistics, folklore and customs etc. instead. Right now, the historical part is about 80% of the article. It should be 25% at most, summarizing. If nothing happens, I will radically export historical stuff to the history article. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Who are you and what are your credentials to make these claims? Statues and stamps are more valuable then living people. History section infact needs to be cleaned and expanded more.

+10 000 thundering typhoons 11:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)+

The main stay of the article is as Dab has stated. I actually had a friend look at it, in it's current form, he still cant understand what exactly a rajput is, lol! The photos provided by Dab should be imported back and although I cleared up some of the poor taste propoganda here, our RSS friends are back with other aliases again. 100 000 rain clouds or storms or something. This was going to happen given the bans. Can we see some enforcements on these extremists? --Raja 21:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Are you the Jarral contributor? You have put some crackpot assertions on Jarral that I deleted today.

+10 000 thundering typhoons 11:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)+

who am I? I am a rather experienced Wikipedian with some 25,000 edits and hundreds of articles under my belt. My advice was not confrontational or partisan, but matter of fact: This is the article about the Rajput people. Compare, if you like, Greeks or Armenians or Ethnic Germans or Pashtun. Note the {{Ethnic group}} template, note how there is a "history" section typically taking less than 50% of the article, along with sections like "culture", "institutions", "identity", etc.; especially when there is a specialized history article, what is the point of just duplicating information already there?

You proved quality and quantity are not related. In future develop a consensus on this page before you make your edits.

+10 000 thundering typhoons 06:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)+

and who may you be? someone's sockpuppet? we didn't go through this tedious rfar just to continue these childish games. Your article is at "Invasion", where it belongs. If you care about working on it, you are most welcome to. Contribute constructively. If you are not already banned, edit warring is the best way to become banned soon. dab (ᛏ) 09:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

sub-articles

this is crazy. if typhoon has his way, the Rajput article has more information about the invasions than the specialized Rajputs and Invasions of India. At least make plain what you propose. Why are you removing Category:Rajputs? Is the Rajput article unrelated to Rajputs? I see the following possibilities. Express your preference. dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Rajput, sub-articles History of Rajputs, Rajputs and Invasions of India

Misplaced Pages:Summary style. The "Invasions" episodes are part of Rajput history, but since we have most information about them, they get to have their own historical sub-article.

dab (ᛏ) 09:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Rajput, sub-article History of Rajputs

Rajputs and Invasions of India should be a redirect to History of Rajputs and the various invasions should be discussed in detail there.

Rajput, no sub-articles

There is not enough material to branch off specialized articles. Rajput should be the only article on Misplaced Pages discussing Rajput history and the invasions stuff in particular. Make both History of Rajputs and Rajputs and Invasions of India into redirects to Rajput.

other suggestions

Banned

Gurkhaboy got banned? He is a Western University educated scholar on the Rajputs. People like Dr. King, Dr. McCleod, Dr. Malvika Kasturi and Dr. J. T. O'Connell know him or of him. I think this article is gonna take a really bad turn. ~~ Daniel Ponzi

it couldn't be getting much worse, could it? These people didn't get banned for being clueless, but for misbehaving. dab (ᛏ) 09:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, you know fully well I didn't misbehave, nor was I insulting, so get off your high horse. I could have brought a lot to this article but I left when I saw Shivraj and you guys just go at it. But when I saw the Pakistani side not cite even one reference and your comments about Hindus, thats when I got involved. Go through your arguements and I rarely come up, never used a sockpuppet, didi,'t say that its "Hindus only", nor did I revert the article like others did. How old are you anyways? What do you mean by "These people"? Just because you were made an admin doesn't mean you should demean others. You just got away with misbehaving with your comments and being partial. An admin has to be held to a higher standard, something that you lack through your comments. And instead of being gracious about the matter you can't refrain but give snooty remarks. Are you just an angry person? You could have made this article amazing, but because of your disgust for Shivraj you began blindly acting into the hands of one side which does not have an legitimate arguement, thus you compromise your judgement and the integrity of the article. You should learn to keep yourself cool even if the likes of Shivraj.Gorkhali 11:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

wait a minute - I apologize, I didn't mean you. I never even listed you as part and parcel of the "Hindu trolls". You appear on the "good faith Hindu side" in my book. I did not realize before now that you were banned, I mean I saw your name on the remedy, but I didn't check back with the evidence. So I apologize for my statement above as not referring to you. I am unsure why you were banned, in fact I would be prepared to ask for clarification, especially concerning ban expiration. As it is, I certainly welcome you to continue constructively contributing via the talkpage. dab (ᛏ) 12:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab I would love to work with you, but I am banned and that makes me fear this article being highjacked again by sock puppets and Pakistanis. You understand my concern.Gorkhali 12:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

bibliography

could some of the involved editors please help me clean up with the bibliography? Alphabetize it, sort it, figure out which books are needed as reference to statements in the article and which are just here as reading suggestions, figure out which books would be more at home in the "History" or "Invasion" bibliographies. We don't give reviews interspersed with the bibliography. If you want to make a statement about a book, do it in the article body. Please. I am tired of trying to improve readability of this article if it's just torn to shreds by edit warriors within the hour. I invested in the rfar to enable editors to work in peace from vitriolic pov-pushers, now please take advantage of that by building a great article. (typhoon, get acquainted with Misplaced Pages:Policy and WP: MoS before edit-warring. dab (ᛏ) 09:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not delete all of them since it was Shivraj who put them there I think. Personally Dab, I think you guys should rewrite the article without the "Hindu trolls" contributions. They did put a lot of work into it, it was just sad that they didn't know how to work with others or compromise. However, it would only be fair to start from scratch and have eminent scholars like Raja, Supersaiyan and Wisesaber write the article as they see fit. Everyone had a problem with the references before, so unless you can validate them you should revamp everything. Cheers Gorkhali 11:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

we shouldn't delete contributions because the contributor was banned, but keep what is valuable, and discard what is not. The bibliography contains valuable references. However, only those entries both relevant the article and attributable to an author and a publisher/year should be kept, and the non-English ones only if used as references for specific statements, not as general "further reading". I am trying to clean it up, but I keep getting summarily reverted for no specified reason. dab (ᛏ) 12:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, don't look at me I never misbehaved as you claimed I did. I am not doing the reverts, I never used sock puppets and didn't take part in some of these nastiest discussions I have ever seen on a historical subject. Since I can't edit, I can't help. I don't want my efforts to be highjacked by a group of teenaged Pakistanis who have their own agenda of demeaning my heritage. Your Rajput article mentions my family in Nepal and Mewar, and yet I am banned so the only thing I can tell you perhaps call Dr. Kasturi at the Univeristy of Toronto and ask her 001-905-828-3748, thats her office number. Zora was reading her book. THe reference to Jatts is incorrect and can be established by a book called "THe origins of the Jats" by Dr. Dhillon, as I recall, he is in Ottawa, haven't talked with him since I entered Meds. I got angry with you because of your anti-Hindu comments. Gorkhali 12:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I apologized above: I didn't claim you misbehaved in the arbcom case, and did so above only by mistake. My comments were never intended to be anti-Hindu, they were anti-nationalist and anti-fundamentalist, and it seems appropriate to apologize to you now if they appeared otherwise to you. I do not think that there is a higher incidence of fanatism or irrationality in Hinduism than in the other major religions, and the problems we were having here are no different from the problems we get with fundamentalist Christians or Muslims on other articles. My attitude towards Hindu fundamentalists is no more hostile than that towards fundamentalists of other religions. The problems at this particular article are especially severe since religious dogmatism meets ethnic pride, a combination that tends to bring out the very worst in any people. dab (ᛏ) 13:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe you and I could turn out to become very good friends. I have some pressing engagements (ie Licensing exam and organising a Medical relief camp for Nepal) after March 30 I should have more time and will be more than happy to assist you, but please get the ban taken off me since I do not have a clue how this whole Misplaced Pages really works. Sincerely, Dr. Chauhan Gorkhali 13:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I cannot take bans off anyone any more than imposing them on anyone. But I assure you that if you constructively point out issues here on talk, citing your sources, I will make sure to defend them against "Pakistani teenagers" if such should be trying to sneak in bias. It is true that bad behaviour doesn't make your point any more false than that good behaviour makes it true, but I am not aware that I have taken anything on hearsay even from the most honey-mouthed editor. Both sides need watertight verifiability. Even better would be, however, if there were no "two sides" but a many-faceted collaboration towards exhaustive coverage of the topic. dab (ᛏ) 14:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, I believe a great misunderstanding developed between us, but I kindly suggest that the Pakistani side was not citing references and they should have. If you go to the Muslim Rajput site, the have a pic of Bhutto who everyone in the SAS dept knows was not a Rajput. They should also be careful and cite their sources. I agree with you about fanatics and have had my own vicious arguments with other Rajputs who claim things out of thin air. However, if one can truly validate the source and give a good arguement then we should look at it. The Pakistanis were blowing a lot of hot air and claims of this and that, but no references. I know you understand where I am coing from. Gorkhali 21:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Images for future use

File:Vijay Sthamb.jpg

Vijay Sthamb (Victory Tower) built by Maharana Kumbha

File:Maharanapratap.jpg

Maharana Pratap of Udaipur

File:Umaid bhawan palace jodhpur.jpg

Umaid Bhavan Palace is the abode of Rathore rulers of Marwar

__________________________________________________________________________________________

A suggestion

Perhaps we could also provide a picture of Maharaja Ganga Singh of Bikaner during his appointment to the British War Cabinet WW1 and as he is presented in the famous painting by Sir James Guthrie "The great statesmen of the war", also we could place a pic of Maharaja Raghubir Singh of Kotah Bundi and also Maharaja Dhiraj Gyanendra Bir Bikram Shahdev of Nepal as well as HRH Sri teen Maharaja Jung Bahadur of Nepal (my great great grandfather). Gorkhali 21:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

A separate page on HH Ganga Singh is certainly appropriate, and if you provide an image without copyright issues, we could use it there -- in this connection, GS's grandson, HH Karni Singh, wrote a scholarly dissertation entitled "The Relations of the House of Bikaner with the Central Powers, 1465-1949", for which he received a PhD. This can serve as an unimpeachable source for crafting a section on mughal-rajput relations. I know that a copy is available at the Seshadri Iyer memorial library in Bangalore, and I am trying to get hold of a copy through the library network where I live. If trolls are kept at bay, it is not impossible to write a sensible piece here and also create many other useful articles. This whole era of Indian history cries out for attention. ImpuMozhi 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I personally own a lot of these potraits of Maharajas, my personal collection, so no copyright issues involved, however I am waiting to have the ban lifted so that I may contribute to the article. Gorkhali 22:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Lying

Impumozzhi you have been exposed on Talk:Rathore. What will it take to make you stop lying?. =Bhannu 10:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

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