Revision as of 21:06, 6 April 2011

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User Uirauna

This user has been manipulating and reverting the Iran-Iraq War page both under his own name and under other sockpuppets. He has multiple aliases, as you can clearly see by the way he writes. All accounts use similar wordings and sentence structures, in that the posts are made up of similar grammatical English styles. He has also been asked several times not to throw words such as vandalism around so liberally, as he clearly doesn't understand how it applies to various scenarios. He tends to put down editors and get his own way by accusing them of vandalism etc, when he doesn't want them to write about certain topics. Most likely the topics conflict with his own agenda.

Lately, he has resorted to personal attacks against me. See his latest posting on the discussion section of the Iran-Iraq war page. Please consider this a formal complaint. This user has difficulty accepting the current agreed consensus amongst the various editors. Kind Regards (RobVanden 06:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robvanden (talk • contribs)

This is probably a retaliation from my previous complaint here: . The user is a proven and blocked sockpuppet (process here: ) who fails to be civil and respect WP rules. I stand by my actions so far, I have done no such personal attacks (actually, I believe I didn´t, I´m quite carefull not to be offensive to anyone). Rob, if you think I have sockpuppets, please open a complaint at WP:RFCU. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 14:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Silverseren

• Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#I_suspect_Noleander_of_anti-Semitic_editing (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In an article about allegations of antisemitic POV pushing Silver seren (talk · contribs) is claiming that the opposing side is in a effect a Jewish lynchmob working with a single mind to censor criticism of jews. This is offensive both because it is a massive breach of AGF, it stereotypes Jews as being a homogenous group dedicated only to protecting jewish interests, and in this case it slanders Jewish wikipedians as promoting Jewish interests above wikipedias interests. Silver seren has repeatedly been made aware that his argument is offensive and bigoted, but he continues to defend it. Is it ok to accuse one's fellow wikipedians of being part of a Jewish conspiracy? ·Maunus·ƛ· 00:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

The user has been given an only warning for all of this.Jasper Deng (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

When?·Maunus·ƛ· 00:54, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for reacting but I think you chose the wrong warning. He wasn't commenting on specific editors, but on a large group (25+ editors) arguing that another user should be topic banned due to antisemitic editing. In anycase a template warning is not likely to solve the issue, but rather a well argued rationale that this kind of argument is not considered to be alright.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

The warning is still effective, as its connotation is that against personal attacks, even against a whole group of people. I will elaborate.Jasper Deng (talk) 00:59, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

• Why was I not informed of this? Silverseren 01:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

You were - the reaction to the warning was just very swift.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

What's the point of being informed if i'm given a warning in the same minute? Silverseren 01:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I didn't think the warrning would be given that quickly so I am not really responsible for that. ·Maunus·ƛ· 01:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

In fact I also warned you in the discussion itself and asked you to retract your allegations - but you continued to defend them.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

(←) I'm a believer in WP:DNTTR, and I don't think a warning template is going to magically resolve the issue. Warning templates are supposed to educate new users; I'm sure Silver is well aware of what a personal attack is. However, I think Silver seren should give their perspective before I comment (should they choose to). Swarm 04:34, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Having seen the responses in that Admin Noticeboard thread, I can understand why someone might have inadvertently (or intentionally) responded in the manner you described, Maunus. There is a clear undercurrent of fear or something that is present in some of the commenters. When a person in the discussion says they are at work and afraid of the article titled "Jews and Money" showing up in their browser history, then something is wrong with the debate. My suggestion is to simply accept the apology Silver is giving below as sincere, and focus on the words and intent of people, and try our best in the future to create an atmosphere that is welcoming of viewpoints on the subject. We can have differences of opinion without instantly being labeled. Words like "bigoted" are instant catalysts for defensiveness, and it is probably best to get clarification before we jump to conclusions. -- Avanu (talk) 06:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

• Don't think I need a separate section, so I will just post an observation here. Noting that a group of editors may be acting in concert to block/ban an editor they do not like is not a personal attack. People who share similar points of view, wither it be along religious, ideological, hell, even what they favorite sports team is, can and do act out a herd mentality to protect what they feel is their "turf". So, if a bunch of editors from one side of the I-P topic area are observed to be acting in tandem on many, many, many issues, calling them out on it doesn't mean one is attacking their racial or ethnic background. Tarc (talk) 15:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

This was not the case here. Slverseren did not make an observation about a clique of editors whom he had seen work together before - he specifically was worried because several editors commenting were jewish. As far I know only certain conspiracy theorists would claims that "Jewish persons" are a "clique observed to be acting in tandem". This is no different from if I had objected to other editors arguments in a discussion about terrorism by saying "the fact that several arab speaking editors are commenting here makes me nervous" would you not find that unbecoming? I know I would have reacted just like I did here if someone had said that.·Maunus·ƛ· 17:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I hate hearing things like this, where someone believes a group of people are conspiring. I'm Jewish, and I can tell you that we don't all think alike, and we don't receive coded messages from anyone. I think Slrubenstein called me a troll once about 5 years ago (yeah, I remember these things). The point is that calling one class of editors, as if you could actually identify that class, anything is uncivil and a general personal attack. And Tarc...you said almost the same thing, which I mentioned on your talk page. It's not good whomever is doing it. OrangeMarlin 17:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Maunus, you're straying into the all-too-predictable realms of political correctness. Like-minded editors who act and edit in tandem are a problem; they don't get special cover or exemption to criticism just because historically their culture has been wrongly linked with subterfuge and conspiracy theories. It is unfortunate that this sorts of thing plays itself out on what is supposed to be a just a collaborative encyclopedia project, but we have specific evidence of this in the Israeli-Palestinian topic area. See WP:CAMERA for starters, and Jayjg's infamous "watch my back" e-mail slipup. Being Jewish in itself has nothing to do with it. Tarc (talk) 17:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

If not accepting arguments that stereotype editors based on their ethnicity, beliefs, etc. is political correctness then yes I am politically correct - and I will continue to be so. Silverseren did not talk about a clique of likeminded editors - he talked about Jewish editors presuming that similar ethnicity equals likemindedness. If he had said "wait a minute I've seen editor X and X work in tandem on occasion y, z and ,q" that would have been a different kind of argument. Not a particularly good one but at least it wouldn't have been bigotted and borderline racist. You do not have any specific evidence that allows grouping all jewish editors together in a single camp trying to game the system as Silverseren implies. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:54, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm taking my leave of this, as you're getting a wee bit too hysterical. It isn't a stereotype when you actually see a group of editors performing said action. This WQA is without merit. End of story. Tarc (talk) 18:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

You should definitely always leave a thread with a personal attack. And I am the hysterical one? 25 editors voted to topic ban - did they all do it because they were Jews? Were they all part of this infamous clique you are talking about? Doe that mean that you won't file a WQA if someone stereotypes you? ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

The WQA definitely has merit and Mannus is exactly right. In fact, this is more than a Wikiquette infraction. It's despicable. Dave Dial (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Phearson's Opinion

I have reviewed the above evidence presented, I think that Silver may have not have AGF in regards to the perceived "opposition". I also believe that he may have selected various poor choices of words to describe what he was trying to relay to other editors. However, I don't believe that he was making any Anti-Semitic remarks other then to point out that there maybe POV pushing amongst the opposition. And I do not know of any other instance of him making perceived anti-Semitic remarks. As for everything else, I have no opinion of the current dispute, as I generally stay away from religious articles unless it is outright preaching/advert/vandalism. Phearson (talk) 04:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren's response

First off, the first and last diff given above by Maunus are the same, so that should probably be fixed.

Regardless, I apologize if what I said was taken as a personal attack. However, I do not believe that asking whether users have bias is a personal attack. My original comment in the discussion was whether it was appropriate for users who have a personal interest in the articles that Noleander edits to make up such a large proportion of the topic ban discussion. My questions and subsequent responses were never meant to be disparaging to Judaism or any Jewish users, they were meant to question whether a bias existed. Clearly, this is a question that cannot be asked, considering the backlash that occurred. I apologize if this was taken as a personal attack by any user against themselves or their faith. It was not meant to be saying anything bad about any user, it is merely asking whether the users in question may have a personal interest that is influencing their decision, which is what bias means (and what our WP:COI policy is based on).

Again, it was never, ever meant to be a personal attack against anyone. However, I almost immediately had users calling me anti-semitic for saying it and I am afraid that that made me quite flustered and angry, leading to my next few comments, which explains the second diff given above. The third diff is where I began to be flustered at how misunderstood my words were being taken. Obviously, looking back, I can see that I should have rephrased them and been more clear. I also was far more blunt and rude than I needed to be (making no comment on potential rudeness of others).

The first, second to last, and last (a duplicate of the first) diffs, however, have nothing to do with this discussion. My comments there are about a situation that I was involved in a year ago in the Criticism of Judaism article and I don't believe apply very much to this discussion, other than someone prompted me to elaborate on it.

This comment I made afterward explains that my comments were not meant to sound anti-semitic, that I would have asked about bias regardless of whether the topic was about religion or not, if there was a group of users that were personally connected to the topic involved. I personally consider that to be an obvious question to ask in such a situation, though I see that others do not feel that way. Silverseren 06:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

1. being jewish (or black or white or catholic) never constitutes a conflict of interest. This relies on the stereotypical fallacy that everyone who belongs to a particular group thinks alike. That is not what COI or Bias applies to. 2. You didn't ask you stated that you were worried that many Jews were commenting. 3. I accept your apology, but I cannot speak for others.·Maunus·ƛ· 09:24, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

That is sort of like saying "being in a minority never gives you a different perspective on the world." Maybe people can just entirely overlook the consequences of unfairness directed at them, but I don't buy it. I think we all carry a perspective, and if we try to deny that, we're simply lying to ourselves (and maybe others). (That doesn't imply that we can't overcome it, and it doesn't mean we can't look past it to understand others' points of view.) -- Avanu (talk) 09:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

No it is not, it is like saying "you can't generalize about what perspective a person has on the world just frm knowing they belong to a minority"·Maunus·ƛ· 11:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I was surprised by Silver seren's comments. It might be worth Silver seren bearing in mind that editors like fourdee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) were banned indefinitely from wikipedia by Jimbo for, amongst other things, suggesting that Jewish historians were incapable of giving an unbiased account of the holocaust. That kind of prejudice has no place on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 09:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Bit of a leap there from a few mistaken comments that from all accounts seemed good faith, to a different editor with systemic pattern of racist comments. Let's try and keep it in perspective. -- Avanu (talk) 09:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

It is a more extreme case of what seem to be the same mistaken assumptions and, as Maunus has said, "stereotypical fallacies". Since it causes unnecessary offense, it is best to avoid going down that path. Mathsci (talk) 09:54, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Appeal to "stereotype" as a defense probably isn't good here, since from my perspective, it seems some of my fellow editors are lumping SilverSeren into a stereotype as an anti-semite. -- Avanu (talk) 10:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but I haven't done that, so you're comments are becoming off-topic. It is Silver seren's conduct which seems to have created problems. Various other editors also made comments in that thread which seemed over-personalised and only superficially related to the original incident. Their conduct has been discussed elsewhere. Mathsci (talk) 10:18, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll make this my last comment on the thread then. Although Silver should or could have phrased their words better, it takes two of us to have a problem. I think Silver has attempted to make amends, and was sincerely acting in good faith. Hopefully that is enough. -- Avanu (talk) 10:28, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Silverseren writes "Again, it was never, ever meant to be a personal attack against anyone" and I blieve her - but that is because I interpret what she wrote to mean "I did not believe I was violating NPA." I believe that SS did not believe she was violating NPA. Violations of NPA are usually treated pretty harshly here, and I can understand why SS would not wish to violate NPA. But the real problem is that anti-Semitism is not a personal attack, it is an impersonal attack. The nature of the attack depends on its not being directed against individuals. It is directed against "Jews." So Slrubenstein is not Slrubenstein, she is "Jew." Maunus is not Maunus, she is "Jew." MathSci is not MathSci, she is "Jew." I am making the same point as Maunus and MathSci, I believe, but more bluntly because I am not sure others get the point. Anti-Semitism can take many forms. Disparaging Judaism can be one form .. but then again, it need not be, one can be critical of Judaism or specific forms of Judaism without being an anti-Semite. Similarly, one can be an anti-Semite through other forms.

When I accused Noleander of anti-Semitic editing, I did not reach this conclusion based on Noleander's identity. I do not know what her identity is, nor do I care. My comments were about an article she wrote, and my conclusions were based on what she wrote. I do not know why she wrote the article, or its contents, and I do not care, it is not my job to guess at her motives. It was the act, the writing, the contents of what whas written, that I thought were anti-Semitic. And I gave my reasons. When people asked for more reasons, I gave more reasons. Many editors agreed that the article should be deleted, and they gave reasons.

Many editors do not belive that the article should be deleted, and many editors do not believe that Noleanders edits were anti-Semitic, and many have given their reasons, and I have not accused ANY of them of being anti-Semitic. I do not agree with their reasoning, but I understand they have their reasons.

And most of the people, including myself, who have voted to delete the article and for the topic ban against Noleander have provided reasons. What makes SS's comments anti-Semitic is that she ignores the reasons we have given and says that the reason we vote for the topic ban or to delete the article is because of our identity, because we are Jews. To suggest that someone's stated reasons should be disounted because the only reason that person voted a certain way is because that person is a Jew is the argument of an anti-Semite. This is not my opinion, it is Sartre's opinion in Anti-Semite and Jew.

SS says, "My original comment in the discussion was whether it was appropriate for users who have a personal interest in the articles that Noleander edits to make up such a large proportion of the topic ban discussion." This is no excuse. Of course most of us edit articles we are interested in, and follow AfDs or AN/I threads on issues of interest to us. People can have many reasons for being interested in this thread. SS was very specific; the focus was on "Jews." What matters with any edit is what are the reasons, and the poblem is the same here: SS is refering to people who gave reasons. It is SS's sugestion that we lied about our reasons, or that the reasons we gave don't matter, that she knows the real reason, it is because we are Jews.

People responded two days ago to SS's comments, and many editors explained what was wrong eith her reasoning.

Funny how she apologizes only when it gets to WQA. At least it is clear who she is apologizing to. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I'll comment one more time. Silver expressed a theory, that some took as offensive. From what I can tell, it wasn't meant to be offensive, it was meant in a manner that was serious. I don't personally know anyone who is Jewish, and I doubt I would know or care beyond being interested in them as a person and getting to know more about them. It is simply not an issue to me. It just strikes me as a little sensitive to be so critical of a person who is making a good faith attempt to reconcile. This kind of attitude is what made me comment initially in the Noleander thread. It doesn't strike me as a unbiased editor looking to help others, but as a judgemental editor looking to 'fix' other people. *sigh* -- Avanu (talk) 11:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Avanu, you suggest I do not take SS's apology seriously. You are right, but I have reasons, and I think they are good reasons. In order to understand them you have to be aware of what has really gone on over the past few days. This actually means looking at how S behaves when NOT at the WQA page. This will require some time, but if you want to understand why I question SS's "apology," you have to know the facts.

On March 26 SS opposed the motion to topic ban with this comment "... completely ignore the fact that they are all referenced to highly reliable sources, often of which are entirely about the subject made ..." implying that the article Noleander wrote was well-sourced and that people supporting a topic ban "ignore" this fact.

Well, okay, but then user:28bytes supported the topic ban, writing this:

Perhaps it escaped the attention of those opposing this topic ban that the entire "Nazi Germany" section of the recently created "Jews and money/Economic history of the Jews" article was sourced to Hitler, albeit via secondary sources that quoted Hitler's statements in Mein Kampf, rather than sourcing directly to Mein Kampf itself. OK, you say. Surely that's just a coincidence. Maybe Hitler was the only one with anything interesting to say on the topic. AGF and all that. Fine. Then let's look at the article's talk page, shall we? Here's what I see:

1.Noleander writes a section on Jews and war financing, claiming that Jewish bankers helped finance governments "in particular, for financing armies and wars." This is sourced to three separate page ranges in three separate books.

2.An editor goes and actually looks at those sources, and finds they say nothing of the sort.

3.Noleander acknowledges that the sources cited do not actually say this and offers to help look for better sources.

The misrepresentation of sources and uncritical, unbalanced quoting from Mein Kampf isn't enough for you? OK, then what about the previous three AN/I threads where this exact type of tendentious editing and blatant cherry-picking of sources to advance a very specific POV was brought up? The pattern here is obvious to anyone paying attention

Now, it strikes me that this editor really took some time to check just what sources were being used, and if the were being used appropriately.

THIS is SS's comment on the above obervation: "Should it be concerning that a good percentage of the supporting editors here are Jewish, according to their userpage? Doesn't that make them biased against Noleander?"

You do not see the problem? 28bytes was commenting on Noleander's use of sources. She pointed to specific issues in the use of sources. But SS did NOT say "thanks or finally addressing the use of sources." SS did not respond at all to the content of what 28bytes wrote. Instead, the comment about Jewish editors.

On march 6, LessHeardVanYou wrote this to SilverSeren:

An honest and direct answer to that is that everyone sees things from their own point of view. Hopefully people take everything here with a grain of salt because lets face it, the encyclopedia is rife with POV. Pages like "Jews and money" are really just WP:coatracks to dump that POV. Anyway, the answer to your question is "address the argument being made, not the person making the argument," Trust me, I know that can be diffacult.V7-sport (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Members who identify as a particular culture, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, belief (and non belief - /me waves) system, political idealogy, etc, are likely very often more nuanced toward negative depictions of that identity. I shouldn't think the Jews are any less (or more) sensitive than any other group, and that such sensitivity may lead to over reaction and possibly bias within a small faction of such a group. On the other hand, there is no basis for suggesting that WP contributors who self identify (or are identified via name choices or articles edited or whatever) as Jews are apt to act other than in accordance to their understanding of the policies, guidelines and practices, especially as some gentiles (/me waves a little less assuredly, wondering if atheists fall into that category or something else) are expressing very much the same concerns. You have been trouted, which should indicate that the question you raised has been considered inappropriate by some here, and yet you do not seem to be taking the hint. This is an unfortunate mindset also exampled by the subject of the discussion. I strongly suggest that you pronounce yourself satisfied with my and others response and concede the point. Please. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Avanu, is this not an attempt to be helpful? Yet, SS resplied "The reason I raised the issue is because there is an preponderance of Jewish users who have arrived to vote on this topic ban ..."

I made the following comment:

"The reason I raised the issue is because there is an preponderance of Jewish users who have arrived to vote on this topic ban ..." Have arrived implies that before they arrived, most of the discussion was by non-Jews. Isn't the real question: why is it that Jews were not commenting before Saturday night? In any event (1) given that Noleander added the "Jews and Judaism" template to the article that prompted this thread, is it any surprise that many of the people who have read the article are Jewish? (2) how actually do you know they are Jewish? (3) why raise the question of "bias?" All you have to do is read the reasons they provide for supporting their support or opposition to the motion. This proposal will be decided on the reasons given, for and against, not the identity of the editors (which, unless someone outs themselves, we never really know). For all I know, Noleander is Jewish. I really have no idea - I can judge only her edits. I find it highly ironic that so many editors have looked at Noleander's behavior and see a bias, and now Silver seren is calling attention to the identities of editors and just based on that is claiming a bias. Silver seren, this is the precise opposite of how a Wikipedian should act. You should infer bias from how people actually behae, not from what you think is their identity. MathSci provides a great analysis of one example from Noleander's editing at the AfD page (where I have provided other examples): User:Mathsci/example; this shows how Noleander systematically misrepresents sources in order to present anti-Semitic canards as facts in articles. It is this kind of behavior that reveals the bias, not her identity. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:44, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Was this note a genuine and courteous attempt to help? I even provided a link to MathSci's concrete, specific example of Noleander misusing a source, to make it clear that the comments against Noleander were based on her use of sources, not some bias. I attempted to inject reason into the discussion.

Then, these comments:

What's far more "rude" is characterizing people who disagree with you as "a group of Jewish users who were adamantly refusing the addition of any material to the article". The latter part of the sentence is simply untrue. As for your characterizing them as "a group of Jewish users", it is both unsourced, and, frankly, bigoted. Given these kinds of statements, which you persistently make, I'm completely unsurprised to see you supporting Noleander and his articles. You need to stop basing your arguments and statements here on your perception of the ethnicity or religion of other editors. Jayjg (talk) 23:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Agreed. I have no way of reading someones mind, but for me statements like those set off alarm bells that let me stop them before I actually voice them. That someone doesn't recoil from blanket statements about ethnicities, especially negative blanket statements, is interesting. -- ۩ Mask 00:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Avenu, are these not constructive attempts to help SS? Wouldn't you expect SS to apologize after thesehelpful comments?

Well, let's see how SS responded:

No, it is specifically true. Every single person on the opposing side in that argument was Jewish, thus it is literally true to call them Jewish users. Their userpages said so and they were arguing against the inclusion of any material that was criticism unless it was by a Jewish author (which...doesn't even make any sense in terms of criticism). Eventually, most of us gave up on trying to argue, since it was getting nowhere. I believe Noleander kept arguing since then, which clearly didn't help him in the books of said users. The rooted stance of the opposing users also explains why the Criticism of Judaism article is so much worse than other comparable Criticism of religion articles. There is a specific reason why I attempt to stay away from articles where I would have a personal interest in them having a POV (such as political articles, articles about social issues, articles related to homosexuality, ect.). I wish other users did the same, but more often than not, users go directly to articles where they have a biased opinion and it's this that causes such conflict on Misplaced Pages. I have no personal interest in Judaism, either for or against, but I am against other biased users trying to control such an article. SilverserenC 00:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

So SS is sticking to the "bias" allegation, after several editors explained hat was wrong, and also provided careful examples of valid reasons for questioning Noleander's use of sources.

Avenu, you question why I do not accept SilverSeren's apology, and why I do not try to help. The reason I do not try to help in your sense of the word is because LessheardVanU, I, Jayjg, and Mask tried to help, thy really did try to help. I am trying to understand why SS would wrote this:

If we have an article about criticism of a company and a group of users were removing information from the article and they all stated on their userpages that they liked said company, I would also be calling bias ... 01:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

AFTER the above comments, and AFTER it went here, to WQA.

So after all the (1) helpful explanations about why her comment was inappropriate and (2) helpful examples of how Noleander's misuse of sources, backed up by evidence, and not bias explained the support of the topic ban, SS does not apologize.

But here at WQA SS apologizes.

So I repeat what I wrote above: at least we know who SS is apologizing to. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm really trying to pull myself away, but... Look, I am a disinterested editor. I don't have a stake in who wins or loses, I'm just looking at what is being presented. And honestly, the discussion was supposed to be about Noleander. Some other editor makes a dumb comment and it ends up here. I haven't gotten angry or upset. I've just asked questions and pretty much looked at it neutrally (I think). What I saw on the previous page, and what I am seeing here, are several people who seem really upset and personally involved and *not* disinterested and objective. I don't mind looking at the substantive arguments (and I agree there are some things that are substantive). But what I am not interested in are the personal undercurrents of fear or reprisal or whatever they should be called. So unless we can really say that SilverSeren is a big jerk who really dislikes people of Jewish ancestry, I would say, let's all get back to being productive and let it be. And I don't see where that case has been made. He's apologized, maybe belatedly, (maybe even begrudgingly), but nonetheless, it has been made. What more shall we do? So let's move back to the original discussion and if people can't leave the emotional content behind, it might be that they aren't in a position to judge. -- Avanu (talk) 14:04, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, that last response that you're quoting from me is me discussing an incident that happened a year ago. And I stand by what I said about that incident a year ago, but I don't think you know about or care about such an incident, as it doesn't apply to the discussion at hand. You have misquoted me, sir/ma'am.

And my apology is not begrudging at all. I am still just trying to understand why others consider it to be antisemitism, when I consider myself biased in articles that I would have an interest in, such as articles about homosexuality or articles about Christianity. It is for that reason that I try to limit my involvement in such articles or anything in relation to them. Thus, I apply such an idea of bias to others as well, which is why I question the high propensity of users who have a personal relation to a topic and their subsequent involvement in such a topic ban, when they have a natural COI (as I do in topics related to me). It is quite clear that others do not share this viewpoint on how bias works. But, do you understand my confusion? Silverseren 14:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

In this context, would people please refrain from abbreviating Silver seren's name as SS... unless they mean what it implies. Thanks. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

._. Hopefully no one meant it like that. Silverseren 20:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I did not mean it "that" way, and do apologize if anyone thought I did.

Silver says, "I am still just trying to understand why others consider it to be antisemitism, when I consider myself biased in articles that I would have an interest in, such as articles about homosexuality or articles about"

Okay, So I really would like to help but if you can indulge me by answering a few questions it would help.

user:28bytes wrote this:

Perhaps it escaped the attention of those opposing this topic ban that the entire "Nazi Germany" section of the recently created "Jews and money/Economic history of the Jews" article was sourced to Hitler, albeit via secondary sources that quoted Hitler's statements in Mein Kampf, rather than sourcing directly to Mein Kampf itself. OK, you say. Surely that's just a coincidence. Maybe Hitler was the only one with anything interesting to say on the topic. AGF and all that. Fine. Then let's look at the article's talk page, shall we? Here's what I see:

1.Noleander writes a section on Jews and war financing, claiming that Jewish bankers helped finance governments "in particular, for financing armies and wars." This is sourced to three separate page ranges in three separate books.

2.An editor goes and actually looks at those sources, and finds they say nothing of the sort.

3.Noleander acknowledges that the sources cited do not actually say this and offers to help look for better sources.

The misrepresentation of sources and uncritical, unbalanced quoting from Mein Kampf isn't enough for you? OK, then what about the previous three AN/I threads where this exact type of tendentious editing and blatant cherry-picking of sources to advance a very specific POV was brought up? The pattern here is obvious to anyone paying attention

So First question (1) Earlier, you had xpressed a concern that opposition to Noleander's article "... completely ignore the fact that they are all referenced to highly reliable sources, often of which are entirely about the subject made ..."

So my first question is, do you think that 28 bytes comment (a) is an example of the problem you describe - if so, I would have to ask you to explain why you think so, or (b) someone who actually is trying to comment on the reliability and use of sources?

(2) second question: this was your comment on the above staqtement by 28 bytes "Should it be concerning that a good percentage of the supporting editors here are Jewish, according to their userpage? Doesn't that make them biased against Noleander?" and I do not see how it is appropriate or even follows logically from 28 bytes' comment so could you 'please just explain to me why this was your response to 28 bytes' comment, what in his comment led you to this comment?

(3)Now, more directly to your question of why people responded with the trout to your comments, LessHeardVanYou wrote this:

Members who identify as a particular culture, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, belief (and non belief - /me waves) system, political idealogy, etc, are likely very often more nuanced toward negative depictions of that identity. I shouldn't think the Jews are any less (or more) sensitive than any other group, and that such sensitivity may lead to over reaction and possibly bias within a small faction of such a group. On the other hand, there is no basis for suggesting that WP contributors who self identify (or are identified via name choices or articles edited or whatever) as Jews are apt to act other than in accordance to their understanding of the policies, guidelines and practices, especially as some gentiles (/me waves a little less assuredly, wondering if atheists fall into that category or something else) are expressing very much the same concerns. You have been trouted, which should indicate that the question you raised has been considered inappropriate by some here, and yet you do not seem to be taking the hint. This is an unfortunate mindset also exampled by the subject of the discussion. I strongly suggest that you pronounce yourself satisfied with my and others response and concede the point. Please. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Now, this seems to me like a good explanation to you. Yet you still say you are trying to understand. Okay. But that means that there is something unclear or insuficient in the above comment. I'd like to help you understant ... but first I need to know why LHVU failed. If you could explain to me what is wrong with his response, maybe I could come up with a better one.

(4) Okay, I also did try before to help you understan but I failed:

why raise the question of "bias?" All you have to do is read the reasons they provide for supporting their support or opposition to the motion. This proposal will be decided on the reasons given, for and against, not the identity of the editors (which, unless someone outs themselves, we never really know). For all I know, Noleander is Jewish. I really have no idea - I can judge only her edits. I find it highly ironic that so many editors have looked at Noleander's behavior and see a bias, and now Silver seren is calling attention to the identities of editors and just based on that is claiming a bias. Silver seren, this is the precise opposite of how a Wikipedian should act. You should infer bias from how people actually behae, not from what you think is their identity. MathSci provides a great analysis of one example from Noleander's editing at the AfD page (where I have provided other examples): User:Mathsci/example; this shows how Noleander systematically misrepresents sources in order to present anti-Semitic canards as facts in articles. It is this kind of behavior that reveals the bias, not her identity. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:44, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

So if I am to try to help you again, I need to kow why my comment did not help you before. Can you explain to me why this comment was unhelpful? If I knew where I failed here, maybe I can do better. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:14, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I think there is really one answer to all four of your questions. My initial question and all of my responses, to which all of the responses you've given as examples don't cover is that I don't have a problem with there being Jewish editors in the discussion, especially if we're talking the editors that were involved in the disputed article. However, my concern was over the fact that there was a vast percentage more of Jewish editors that were responding to the discussion than would have been normal for the range of editors that would be scanning ANI for topics. It was also this fact that made me make the comment about my suspicions on exterior contact between users, because the number of Jewish editors responding was far too high to be a random sampling. As far as I know, there was no notification of other editors, but it concerned me and still does concern me that so many Jewish editors responded. It wasn't a normal amount that would naturally respond to such a discussion unless there was some sort of off-Wiki contact going on. I have no proof of this, obviously, but it seems very strange considering the proportions. This was the point of my comments that I see others didn't understand with the way I worded them.

Secondly, I have no issue with the evidence of misrepresentation of sources that were given by some users. However, the majority of the supporters were not going off of this evidence, but were making statements based on anti-semitism, which has nothing to do with the evidence of misrepresentation of sources. It was these sorts of reasonings by supports voters that also affected my comments asking about bias. Silverseren 21:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems you are accusing editors of POV pushing, which is very rude unless 100% justified.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Is this still going? It's been four days and you respond now? Anyhow, no, I was not accusing anyone of POV pushing. I don't know how you can be POV pushing when you're voting in a topic ban anyways. POV pushing really only applies to articles. No, the word you're looking for, which I have been using, is bias. And I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I asked a question of whether there was the possibility of there being a bias in the topic ban proceedings. That's all. Silverseren 05:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You said they made statements based on anti-semitism; however, you need to justify such accusations. In any case, just refrain from this in the future.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Jasper, I think you might be mistaken as to who is saying what. "statements based on anti-semitism"? Silver was the person questioning the neutrality of the others. Given the tone of the rhetoric, my 2 cents is that it was justified. Why do you suppose we pick juries with such care? It's because despite our best efforts as human beings, we still allow biases to influence us. And reasonable people understand this. If we're interested in being honest and truthful, we have to allow people to legitimately ASK. If we respond emotionally and suspiciously to every person who might seem to be in disagreement with us, we won't have the best outcome. I was under the impression that this thread had been put to bed. I'm not sure how many more ways Silver can make amends for his actions, but hopefully those who took offense can recognize the good faith effort and focus on things that are more productive than this debate. -- Avanu (talk) 06:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Robvanden (talk · contribs)

• Robvanden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Iran–Iraq_War
• Talk:Iran–Iraq_War#no_.22tactical_Iranian_failure.22
• User_talk:Uirauna#Iran_-_Iraq_war_March_2011

This user, first editing as IP User:27.32.51.171 and then creating his current account has from the beggining being completely uncivil to other editors. As can be ssen on his contributions as an IP he called other editors "dickhead", "revisionist Anglo Saxon", did severe POV-pushing and edit warring (with comments such as "You wish to suggest otherwise, and I won't let you. It's as simple as that", "You have no say in this matter if you're not an Iranian", "Who do you think you are..!?").

I was civil to him, asked him not to insult other users and to avoid making accusations and personal offenses (as well as asking him to read basic rules of WP): , , , . As his new user, he kept his behaviour, making false accusations (of me having puppets) and personal offenses such as "You just got used to getting your own way on everything thus-far. I'm here to tell you, that has come to an end.", "I know you have your own agenda for this article. You won’t be successful; I can assure you of that.", "You sound like a 5 year old kid who starts sulking if he doesn't get his way.", "stop pushing your agenda on the article with different aliases", "don't use words so liberally which you have no idea what they really mean", "you sure are a stubborn person, just let it go man" and "You don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to this war".

I´ve tried to resolve the issue politely, asked him to stop personal attacks and disruptive behaviour but I do not wish to enter into a dispute or an edit-war, so I´ve just let the issue rest on the article and came here for help. His edits can be seen on both of the articles linked above. Thank you. Uirauna (talk) 04:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

He has been given an only warning.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:09, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jasper

This user Uirauna has now resorted to personal attacks of his own against me. Please remind him of the rules of WP. It has been suggested also that he is using sockpuppets under different names to advance his own personal agenda for the Iran - Iraq war article. He's also been asked several times not to use big words so liberally in an area that he lacks academic knowledge. Please remind him of the rules. Cheers. (RobVanden 06:05, 5 April 2011 (UTC)). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robvanden (talk • contribs)

Uncivility in WP:EAR

• Cerme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance/Requests#Paula Francis, Olavo de Carvalho (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This user, whom I had never met before, has been (ab)using of the public space shown above to make insults and spread libelous rumours about myself: "an editor who appears motivated by his political sympathies only", "his cantankerous tendencies", "addicted to unbalanced behaviour and wild charges", "a long record of provocative behaviour", among other 'compliments'. I would like some assistance from the administrators in at least letting him know that such behaviour is wrong (Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks) and should not be tolerated. RafaAzevedo 11:20, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I have warned the user.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not understand the necessity of the warning, as I have since then, on my personal initiative, publicy asked for assistance from a third editor at his personal page(Dalillama) and agreed with him about working towards a consensus in two disputed articles. After that, I have stated my position in the discussion pages of the said articles (Paulo Francis and Landless Workers' Movement) yesterday, and expected to receive a comment on the changes proposed, not a warning about (far)anterior comments of a personal nature, which I believe were set aside for the sake of a working consensus. A visit to my contributions page will be enough to show the chronological sequence of the events described Cerme (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

PS: I will refrain from further editing of the disputed articles, until a solution is found about how to reach a consensus about then. My personal choice was and is to bank on Dilillama's assistanceCerme (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

It is no excuse to attack other editors.Jasper Deng (talk) 19:36, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely Cerme (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Promethean

• Promethean (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Editor review/Ebe123 (edit | ] | history | links | watch | logs)

Promethean has been reviewing me at my editor review and he was uncivil. I was not minding it just to the user did more still on my editor review. ~~EBE123~~ _Contribs 16:51, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Four possibilities:

1. It might be useful to listen to what he says, and you can overlook how he says it: this does not appear to be the case, since you've come here.
2. It might be useful to listen to what he says, but you don't want to because of how he says it: then delete his comments (it's your editor review), ignore him, at the risk of missing out on some useful info.
3. He isn't saying anything useful, but you can overlook how he says it: this does not appear to be the case, but if it were, the solution is, again, to ignore him.
4. He isn't saying anything useful, and you don't want to hear it because of how he says it: then delete his comments (it's your editor review), ignore him, and you aren't even risking missing out on some useful info.

I've found that Options #3 and #4 are most common with Promethean, but note that in all four cases, the solution isn't to come here. The solution is to stop talking to him, delete his comments if you wish, and if he doesn't take the hint and keeps pestering you after you stop talking to him, then come here and ask someone to get him to stop. Saying things in a stupid way, so that the person you're talking to is not inclined to listen, is his weakness, not yours. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done possibility 3 4.

Done ~~EBE123~~ _Contribs 17:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

What I said Stands: However blunt my review was, it was true and accurate to the picture I and several others have accertained of this user. His inability to take in the review on its merits and admit he wants to 'get up there' way to fast is disappointing but will only hurt his prospects of doing just that. Regarding the removal, What I said doesn't need to be on the page because it's something that is blatantly clear and will come up in any RFA. I myself have watchlisted future RFA's from this user and will air my concerns there as it seems that the Editor Review process isnt made for bad things to be said about a person, however true they are. As for ACC right whoring, the tool admins are also well aware of your history and I doubt they will be changing thier position any time soon though I have no say in this. Though I find it funny that no reference to the removed review, however blunt it was, was made on the page (IE "Review by Promethean removed" with a link to the diff) and some will view this as a perversion of the Misplaced Pages namespace (you don't own Misplaced Pages namespace pages) and the Editor Review process. I have put the review on the talk page per convention such as those at RFA. So yes, the outcomes are perfect and everything is as it should be.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 02:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'd also like to say that whilst my Review was 100x more blunt than BelovedFreak's, we both mentioned the 'desperate to get power' image that people have of Ebe, so to say its completly unuseful when two people have said it and Ebe has ignored it is a failure to take critism on his part. Ebe needs to understand Im not gaining anything here and this whole process isnt doing me any harm, however, if he doesnt think to himself "Geez two people are saying this now I wonder why they think of me this way" then that is his loss, not mine.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 02:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The editor review process asks for constructive criticism, but doesn't give a carte blanche to be rude to someone, whatever their faults. Given that Ebe was following Floquenbeam's advice in deleting your comment, it seems unfair to harangue him about it on his talk page - an editor review isn't really the equivalent of an RFA. I can see that you hoped your review would help Ebe improve, but now you've made your point, I can't see the harm in letting the post disappear.--Physics is all gnomes (talk) 12:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

As far as Harangue'ing Ebe about the removal, which is a bit of a stretch, I was more annoyed at the fact he opened a Wikiquette Alert (which is a discussion), notified me about it and then posted on my page that the "discussion is over" an hour later after he saw Floquenbeam's contribution before I could even get my 2 cents in or address his concerns which I agree to some extent are valid. You can add to his editor review that he needs to understand how Wikiquette Alerts works in future. Also note that posting messages on specific people's talk pages with the heading "Come and Help" smacks of Canvassing and makes this sound like a gang up session of friends. With all this being said I have happily disengaged from the editor review itself, but will maintain that the removed review should remain on the talkpage for the record.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 17:17, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• The comments were unacceptable personal attacks; recreating them on the talk page after they had been blanked it just astonishing. I've warned Promethean that if I see any such attacks on an editor again I will block them. Fences&Windows 23:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Him*   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Promethean's misbehavior on other topics is also under discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Promethean_attacking_science_fiction_conventions_en_masse. Raul654 (talk) 01:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Will Beback and Sam Vaknin

• Will Beback (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sam Vaknin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User:Will Beback seems to be rampaging through Wikpedia wiping out all Sam Vaknin material, thus undoing hard work done by various people, and also unnecessarily trimming See Alsos.--Penbat (talk) 09:23, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you specify what exactly is wrong with this series of edits? If you specify what exactly is wrong, it'll be easier to understand what this alert is for. Silverseren 09:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Its not the Sam Vaknin article itself which is the problem its the fact that he has annihilated pretty much all Sam Vaknin material from other articles - see Special:Contributions/Will_Beback--Penbat (talk) 09:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The material I removed is from self-published sources. While editors may disagree with that policy, or my interpretation of it, I don't see this as a Wikiquette issue. Maybe we should discuss this at WP:RSN?   Will Beback  talk  09:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

just because a small proportion of his work is self-published that is no excuse to anihilate him from Misplaced Pages. He has also been involved in countless third-party publications and his opinion is commonly sought in high profile journals and newspapers. Also quite a few of the refs used in other articles to his work are third party refs by others.--Penbat (talk) 09:41, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Its one of the drawbacks of a publication like Misplaced Pages, Penbat. What might be perfectly reasonable in another encyclopedia is not allowed here (in my opinion because it limits Misplaced Pages's lawsuit exposure). -- Avanu (talk) 23:20, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

If I've made any errors I'd be happy to fix them. Can you point to the non-SPS citations which I deleted?   Will Beback  talk  09:44, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, rather than discuss it further Penbat1 is just reverting my edits without explanation.   Will Beback  talk  10:14, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that at least some, probably all, of these sources should be removed. There's no justification, for example, in citing Vaknin's (or anyone else's) self-published material in Empire. See WP:SPS for when we're allowed to use that kind of material. I also agree that this isn't the place to discuss it. SlimVirgin 12:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

As we all know, selfpub sources WP:SELFPUB are permitted on Misplaced Pages depending on how and when they are used. Therefore, a blanket deletion of a self pub source would be improper. At the same time, WBB has said he is willing to repair any mistakes, so if specific diffs could be provided then the situation could be corrected as needed.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Slef-published material as acceptable and not grounds in and of itself for removal. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

It's grounds for removal when it violates WP:SPS, which is policy, and all or most of these edits did violate it. SlimVirgin 17:06, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Which of user willbebacks edits violated policy ? Off2riorob (talk) 17:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Not Will's; he was removing the SPS, correctly, but was reverted. SlimVirgin 17:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Are there any edit restrictions in this area, perhaps related to associated sectors that user willbeback is closely associated to editing in, such as Transcendental Meditation, or associated sectors or attached to the sector of LaRouche movement? - It would imo and others that user willbeback would better remove himself from the areas he is associated with and begin editing in areas he is uninvolved in long term association with. Off2riorob (talk) 17:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, Rob. The situation is that someone has added an SPS to lots of articles unnecessarily, where there are plenty of other appropriate sources. It looks like spamming. So Will removed some of it, and was reverted. He shouldn't have been reverted, because the material violated SPS. Then for reasons I still don't understand, it was reported here. SlimVirgin 17:48, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I am looking at the bigger picture - User:Willbeback is a single purpose account editing in support of his own POV across a well known sector of articles and issues, this is exactly the reason a good faith editor has found reason to report him here. Off2riorob (talk) 17:55, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your assessment of Will as an SPA. :) He correctly removed spam. There's no need for a discussion about it here, because the policy is clear about this kind of source, and it was added to articles the source had no remote connection to. SlimVirgin 18:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I know you respect him and support him and that you both edit in some associated fields such as Larouche (diff available if required} but this is worthy of a read - User:Antandrus/observations on Misplaced Pages behavior - 'Beware of users so in love with their own virtue, that they are incapable of recognizing when it has become vice; and so in love with their own eloquence, that they can not see when it has become hypocrisy. The former are those who never admit to any wrong, but yet demand apologies from others for the lapses of judgement to which all human beings are prone; and the latter are the blindest and most intractable of POV-pushers. Skill with words correlates neither with virtue nor wisdom' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Off2riorob (talk • contribs)

It's good advice, which applies to us all. I think this is best closed, because it's clearly inappropriate on this page, and the spamming (or whatever it is) does need to stop—including in the interests of the author himself, who it's worth making clear isn't responsible for it. SlimVirgin 18:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Vaknin's material is frequently cited by academics in the field of narcissism etc. see: )) I also happen to know that the following books all reference or cite Vaknin:

• Lisa E. Scott, He's So Vain He Can't See You (2008) p. 8
• Frank H. Columbus/Serge P. Shohow, Advances in Psychology Research, Vol 31 (2004) p. 5
• Simon Crompton, All About Me: Loving a Narcissist (London 2007) p. 31
• David Thomas Narcissism: Behind The Mask (2010) p. 28
• Ronningstam, Elsa F. Identifying and Understanding the Narcissistic Personality (2005) (can't remember the page number)

Vaknin's views on narcissism are considered to be high profile enough to be featured in various articles in the quality press such as "Adrian Tempany When narcissism becomes pathological Financial Times September 4 2010" and in "Yvonne Roberts The monster in the mirror The Sunday Times September 16, 2007" where his opinions are included together with those of other luminaries. See also Megalomaniacs abound in politics/medicine/finance Business Day 2011/01/07 which refers to Vaknin as an "expert" and the first "expert" mentioned by name and the second named "expert" Dr Jose Romero-Urcelay a UK forensic psychiatrist and director of therapies at the unit for dangerous and severe personality disorders at Broadmoor Hospital agrees with him.

It defies any sort of common sense that there are many academic books that cite or reference Vaknin yet it is considered inappropriate that Misplaced Pages can do so. Are we also saying that the quality press such as the Sunday Times and Financial Times have got it wrong by interviewing Vaknin alongside other luminaries ? None of the above newspapers said we cant use him as he is SPS. It is hardly reasonable to find a third party citation of every paragraph that Vaknin has ever written. --Penbat (talk) 17:41, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I've asked you to give examples of academics citing his research, and you've so far not done it. They sometimes mention him as an example of a sufferer, but that's not what's meant. And anyway, someone had added him to Empire and to an article about Russia. It looked like spamming, and it's not in his interests to do this, in case it looks as though he was the one who did it. SlimVirgin 17:48, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Penbat has been provided opportunity to explain why Will Beback should not have removed these edits and has failed to do so. This discussion thread should be closed. TFD (talk) 01:00, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this may not be the best place to discuss this dispute, because personal attacks are not claimed. Figureofnine (talk) 14:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Samaleks

• Samaleks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Kochi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Thiruvananthapuram (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Trivandrum International Airport (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Cochin International Airport (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Technopark, Trivandrum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User Samaleks had been targeting me by conducting several violations of Wikiquette.

1. Samaleks had been going against WP:AGF consistently on my edits.
2. Samaleks had been going against the principle of Work towards agreement, by refusing to admit valid arguments presented.
3. Samaleks had been constantly alleging meat puppetry on myself and a few other editors active on these pages, violating the principle of Argue facts, not personalities.
4. Samaleks, on some articles, had been constantly making false claims, where the references cited doesn't support them. At the same time, he dismissed valid references on some other pages. This is in violation of the principle of Do not make misrepresentations
5. Samaleks constantly sidesteps the arguments raised, and repeats vague claims of the reference being mentioning the fact, ignoring requests to point out the specific part of the reference that does. This is in violation of the Do not ignore questions principle.
6. Samalake has used terms in malayalam language that are slurs, violating the principle of Be Civil

Some diffs here. Reading the Talk pages of the articles mentioned above shows a lot of examples of the consistent behaviour of this editor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Thiruvananthapuram&diff=prev&oldid=416542591

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Thiruvananthapuram&diff=prev&oldid=416923048

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Thiruvananthapuram&diff=prev&oldid=417377555

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Kochi&diff=prev&oldid=419391169

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Kochi&diff=prev&oldid=419751540

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Kochi&diff=prev&oldid=420249885

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:InfoPark,_Kochi&diff=prev&oldid=421665140

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Aarem&diff=prev&oldid=417801508

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:DileepKS69&diff=prev&oldid=420994796

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Bijuts&diff=prev&oldid=421843027

Samaleks is a very senior editor, with a lot of good edits to his credit. It is really unfortunate that he is violating Wikiquettes like this. He could very well make positive contribution without resorting to these tactics, if he could forget his own biases and prejudices. I am not seeking any punitive measures by raising this alert. I only wish him to recognize his folly, and act according to Wikiquette.

DileepKS(talk) 14:21, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

oh dear dileep, you was a great actor on wiki!!!. everyone knows about your discussions about wikipages of Kozhikode and Thiruvananthapuram on Kochinow forums. every one viewed it before you deleted that tread fom the forum as you are a moderator there. every one knows about the wars occurred in Skyscapercity forums and the move of the foromers of kochi scc to kochinow forus. you have to move from scc because the moderators there was very strong and they BANNED all the foroumers who triggered the war. you editors also discussed about the mods very abuse fully in kochi now forums.

I don't think the above editor's allegations about you are not wrong. the discussions in kochinow was like that. from the discussions, you editors from kochinow forum has only one thing to do, Glorify Kochi and destroy other city articles and you are doing it very organized and slowly.

here is one of your statements from kochi now

""The only way to deal with the vandals is to be cool, systematic and methodical always. Do
things slowly and steady. Right now, we have removed most of the malicious content. Doing
too much too soon will attract attention, and we will have a war at hand. Let us go easy on
the edits, and do it slow.""

You editors are vandalizing Misplaced Pages in the name of WIKI LAWS. if you are not so biased, why did you deleted the tread against wiki from kochinow forums after it's been mentioned in Misplaced Pages???. everyone knows you will reorganize and continue your discussions through more secure means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.14.52.212 (talk) 05:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

remember dileep: "Not to argue and win but to know and to make known" this will not suit you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.14.52.212 (talk) 05:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Dear IP Editor (I am not alleging you are Samaleks, but you seem to always support him). You are welcome to initiate a sock/meat puppetry investigation on any editor, including myself. Let me also mention that you are violating the Argue facts, not personalities principle here.

Let me repeat. I am not requesting any action on Samaleks here. I just want him to realize what he is doing, mend his ways and to follow the Wikiquette. The same applies to you, IP user under 49.xx.xx.xx, because your behaviour also is exactly the same.

DileepKS(talk) 06:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

you think i am a sock samaleks because of i supported him?? then i can mention that you and your friends are meat puppets because you supports them everywhere.

old man, if you want him to realize what he is doing, you can talk to him on the talk page instead of writing all these here. and i DONT want to initiate a sock/meat puppetry BIG ""INVESTIGATION"" for finding that you and your beloved ""FRIENDS" are meat puppets. it's clear from your forum discussions. and i send the above message is to REALIZE you that EVERYBODY knows how BIASED YOU ARE. and every one knows how you and your friends organized to edit the page Kochi. i red your forum posts and that's why i supported samaleks.

about my behavior - simple!!! it's better than you!!! i don't try to say "mine is bigger than you" to everyone like you in the forums. also, i don't want your ""principles"". 49.14.85.150 (talk) 06:44, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Dear IP Editor. Whether you want or not, the principles of wikiquette I quoted are binding on the users of Misplaced Pages. The only way to not adhere to them is to not venture into editing. The very reason I raised this investigation is to draw attention to the fact that Editor Samaleks, and IP Editors like yourself, are not abiding with them.

DileepKS(talk) 07:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

User:OhNoitsJamie

• OhNoitsJamie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Talk:Baby_Got_Back (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There's an ongoing debate over the inclusion of facetious synposis Baby_Got_Back in which User:OhNoitsJamie is exploiting his administrative privileges and acting in violation with Misplaced Pages guidelines: namely, not being nice to newcomers, refusing discussion, forcing his own opinion onto others.

His position regarding the synopsis itself is (in my opinion) probably correct. What I can't stomach is his high horse attitude. This is NOT how Misplaced Pages should be functioning. This man is an administrator, his actions should be exemplary to other contributors. Instead he behaves like he forgot about his responsibilities and only enjoys his power.

"I agree. There's nothing more for me to add to this conversation, and as I said before, anyone re-adding this or similar synopses will be warned once and blocked. Editors who've already been blocked for it once will be blocked for a longer period. That's all, folks."

This is not how an administrator should act at all. The correct way to resolve this would be to listen to any arguments others might have, and warn them not to change the article unless there's a consensus to do it. Not this "I said no, end of story".

Guess what happened when I wrote him about that? He deleted that message commenting "not useful". Another example of high horse attitude.

Moreover, it turns out he deleted the history revisions containing the synopsis in question, without obtaining any consensus whatsoever with people on the talk page. This is clearly not an action required for keeping wikipedia clean, but just a display of his "power" against those who oppose him.

I'm not sure if this warrants a de-admin request as it is, but I at least hope that the community urges user:OhNoitsJamie to reflect on his actions and choose a more tolerable attitude in the future. I hope he remembers that he's not the one deciding anything. He's just a public servant. -- 91.79.20.246 (talk) 09:08, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I made a Wikiquette complaint about him a week or so ago, and concur - I had the same impression. I've had his talk page on watch since then and it's difficult to see him as a calming influence. I suspect being an admin can be quite a hassle and will get to some people eventually. I don't know much about him till recently, but maybe he's got to that point. DeCausa (talk) 09:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Jamie has been dealing with this crap for awhile now, and I don't begrudge him a bit of frustration. This all stems from a dumb internet meme that breaks down dumb pops songs into excruciating, over-analyzed detail that came to AN/I's attention last fall. If people are still trying to jam this junk into articles, they're gonna get what they deserve, IMO. Tarc (talk) 13:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't know anything about the article in question - I was just noticing from my interaction with him and the stuff on his talk page over the last week or two that he doesn't seem to behave in a way that other admins generally do. DeCausa (talk) 14:07, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

If this administrator is threatening to use his tools in a content dispute, that's serious and should be reported to the Administrators Noticeboard. Figureofnine (talk) 14:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That is not a correct assessment of the situation. The admin in question is not a vested contributor in the article, he was merely there to remove vandalism and sanction the vandals. Tarc (talk) 15:19, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Tarc. When an admin has been monitoring a known problem on a specific article in their capacity as an admin, then it is within their remit to use their tools on said article should the issues recur. --Jezebel'sPonyo 15:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Then there is no issue here. Figureofnine (talk) 15:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

See this thread and the original ANI posting. There's been a recent rallying by predominiately SPA's to attempt to bring the silly synopsis back, resulting in protection of the article. Yes, I do find the whole thing very tiresome. A few revisions were deleted per as being "purely disruptive," an interpretation I stand by. I should note that following the protection, a contributor completed a well-done expansion of the article that conforms with policy guidelines. OhNoitsJamie 15:35, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Being tired is no justification for being a bad admin. As long as someone's willing to hold a proper discussion, the discussion should be held. If you feel you cannot stay neutral and support it, it's a clear sign you should call another administrator and abstain from participating yourself. Not that you should declare your opinion final and threaten to ban people who stubbornly disagree with you. -- 91.79.23.181 (talk) 17:18, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Except it still was a content dispute, because there were people that believed this content satisfied all the rules of wikipedia and were ready to support their claims in discussion. They just got slapped in their face by this admin. "I said no, so no". -- 91.79.23.181 (talk) 17:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure being an administrator is a difficult job. It is not something most people could do well. It is my experience and belief that User:Ohnoitsjamie is, at present, ill suited to the task of Misplaced Pages administrator. I was one of the editors who argued in favor of the inclusion of the synopsis at Talk:Baby Got Back. My initial editorial action on this article was to revert his deletion and to call for discussion on the talk page prior to deletion of a section. No substantive discussion had previously been held. For this action (one reversion and a call for discussion) I was summarily issued a final warning and threat to block. This editor has consistently violated the assumption of good faith policy and uses intimidation as his primary argumentative tool. I would suggest he be removed immediately as an administrator. Furthermore, there is a small group of about 3 editors who troll articles looking for hip-hop translations/interpretations and vigorously delete them. They have invented their own new Misplaced Pages policy which is referred to as the "Verbose meme". Yes, perhaps the synopsis on this page should have been removed or modified and that argument was over months ago when I got no support from any other editors. But, to emaciate the history of the article simply as a way to support your jihad against hip-hop lyric translation is over the top. This, i consider vandalism. His reason for the history deletions is that the revisions were "purely disruptive". That means this editor is stating that my revision re-instating the synopsis (which he has deleted) was purely disruptive. I must take exception. I argued, I think, quite correctly that the synopsis was not original research. The only legitimate argument for its deletion was the claim that it is original research. It is not. It is simply a translation from hip-hop slang to English. To claim that my edit was purely disruptive is false and provides additional evidence of this editor's utter disregard for the assumption of good faith. Please read the discussion at Talk:Baby_Got_Back#Synopsis and Talk:Baby_Got_Back#Content_of_Synopsis to see the tenor and nature of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctorfree (talk • contribs) 05:52, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

This is not a forum for requesting disciplinary action against an administrator. I think this topic should be closed. Figureofnine (talk) 17:22, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Jamie's reaction to the protracted silliness on this article is understandable, and certainly not grounds to make sweeping claims like "ill suited to the task of Misplaced Pages administrator". DeCausa's complaint last week was valid, if minor (IMHO). This one isn't. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

user:Arthur Smart - bigotry & personal attacks

• Arthur Smart (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Conservatism/About_us

The editor wrote that the vision statement for Wikiproject Conservatism is "bald-faced lie", and "that lie's chief perpetrator." In the edit summary he wrote "are all conservatives liars, or just the creator of this project." Accusing me of lying, and then actually calling me a liar is a clear violation of WP:NPA. The edit sum reveals a bigotry against conservatives.

Several times I explained to him that the vision statement was aspirational, which is typical for vision statements. Unfortunately his hatred of conservatives has blinded him to all reason resulting in this anti-conservative, bigoted and disruptive outburst. Lionel (talk) 20:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

You know, this isn't going to get very far when the statement that he was accusing you of lying about was "WikiProject Conservatism is the recognized world wide resource for documenting the conservative movement". When he changed that to "aspires someday to be", you reverted it back to the inaccurate statement. Accusing him of bigotry here is a personal attack, so why don't you both just stop insulting the other and go back to editing articles? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:57, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

1. This is not an article. It is a wikiproject subpage.
2. A vision statement by definition is "the way an organization or enterprise will look in the future." Based on the definition Arthur's edit is deficient. He is under the mistaken assumption that a vision statement must be a provable statement.
3. But that isn't the point: Arthur called me a liar, and disparaged all conservatives.Lionel (talk) 21:21, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Sarek. The "visions statement" obviously isn't true, and this is a silly dispute which has nothing to do with improving the encyclopedia.   Will Beback  talk  22:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

"Insulting each other?" I did not call him a name. I described behavior. His edit summary was a derogatory blanket generalization of an entire group of people and I wrote that it was a "bigoted...outburst." (Ital mine.) And when you make a derogatory blanket generalization, well, it's properly referred to as bigotry. There is no BOOMERANG here. Lionel (talk) 22:24, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you Will that fighting over this subpage is silly. The page in question is a step above a user page, and has no readers. Question: does it matter if a vision statement is true, and if yes, on what do you base that? Lionel (talk) 22:50, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Project pages are part of the project. Writing obviously incorrect statements is unhelpful and fighting over them is just pugnacious. If the statement is contentious then just delete it. Every Wikiproject has the same goal - improving the articles within its topic.   Will Beback  talk  22:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs

• Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This stems from a series of thirteen deletions for electronics component articles. A convenient list is here. The disparaging comments are Wtshymanski's.

These were PROD'ed, rejected, than AfD'ed. For the purpose of WQA it's not just the behaviour to this point that is at issue, but behaviour since. This has been an unusually ill-tempered (and single-handedly so) set of AfDs with a tenacious amount of flogging a dead horse afterwards.

The basic premise behind these deletions is that, "parts list articles are not notable". These components are all real electronic components, with a huge range of references behind them from any number of standard parts handboooks. Yet this does not, allegedly, confer notability. The problem is some variant of WP:MILL: simply existing and being recorded as such is not notable, in the way that a phone number is not notable, despite being well catalogued. Only components with some real claim to distinctive novelty could be said to be "noteworthy", and thus considered WP:Notable.

The strange part is that no-one, even at the AfDs, seems to disagree with this principle. The dissent is that these components are, by and large, reckoned to be that handful of components that do meet the more stringent criteria for being noteworthy.

AfDs

Most of the debate seemed to take place on this AfD, the rest being somewhat repetitive.

• Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/2N3055

These in turn gave rise to a centralised discussion

• Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion#Mass_deletion_of_electronic_components

Behaviour during this AfD was far from ideal. In particular, I don't believe that AGF extends to comparing other editors to a psychotic murderer.

Talk page comments from other editors, re behaviour

• User_talk:Wtshymanski#2N3055
• User_talk:Wtshymanski#transistors_and_stuff
• User_talk:Wtshymanski#Component_article_deletion
• User_talk:Wtshymanski#Voicing_concern (another electronics article, an undiscussed redirect)

Some rare support:

• User_talk:Wtshymanski#Thank_you
• User_talk:Wtshymanski#Group_behavior

The AfDs have now mostly closed as keeps. There is some support for deleting a couple where it's agreed that they are indeed just "parts list" items.

So far, process seems to have worked just as it ought and an excess of zeal by one editor has been compensated for. However behaviour since really is getting beyond a joke. They seem incapbable of making any comment without a sarcastic edit summary, they refuse to recognise that there is any other valid viewpoint:

• Just not notable
• Ambles off, humming Every Sperm is Sacred
• Nothing is constructive here, if you get right down to it.
• Meanwhile, the guys in the Spock ears are saying "Get a life!"
• Let's mention that they are usually black, and have wire leads while we're at it.
• Fraudulent excuse of an item that pertends to be an article

Shortly after one AfD closed as keep, they re-tagged it for notability - yet isn't this what was just discussed?

• Tagging BC548 for notability

This is an editor who refuses to respect consensus, or that he might be "right yet outvoted", and that in the interests of the encyclopedia it's time to put the stick down and leave the horse be.

This is not the working atmosphere we're supposed to have to put up with. This editor's behaviour is intolerable. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution