Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:42, 7 April 2011

I'm off again. The real world beckons once more. I'll probably still be around here a bit, but I can't devote the time I have previously to WP - so if there are long delays before replies, or items you'd expect me to comment on that I haven't, then this is the reason. I want to devote more time to some research I'm doing which may end up as a book - even if it doesn't, it's proving interesting and opening up some NZ history which has previously been largely unknown. In any case, that, and other real world concerns mean that my time is a little more constrained for online activities like Misplaced Pages. If anything urgent comes up, my email contact is still here. Don't break the place while I'm gone :)

Please add new discussions at the bottom of the page!

I've moved earlier discussions to archive pages (as listed below). A few of the items I've simply got rid of - if I have, it's simply that it was trivial and/or stuff which has been dealt with, and is therefore no longer relevant. The deletion is not a reflection of my opinion of the writers!

Archives

{{subst:WikiProject South Island invitation}}

Happy Thanksgiving

Happy Thanksgiving Tony the Marine (talk), 25 November 2010

• You live in NZ? That is one country I would love to visit one day. Take care. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Mount Hay, New South Wales

Hello, I was correct in my move- Geographic features in Australia use the bracket dab (look at Category:Mountains of New South Wales); if you see one which uses the comma dab Mount Wilson, New South Wales, for example, the article is about the locality not the mountain. Mouunt Hay is a mountain only, not a locality. Regards (Crusoe8181 (talk) 00:41, 25 November 2010 (UTC)).

OK - sorry about that. I noticed most of the others on one of the list articles used commas, so thought that it was best to follow suit. I didn't even realise you'd corrected my move - I thought my move of the article hadn't taken properly so re-did it! Grutness...wha? 05:39, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Your documentary by topic stubs

Hi, just wondering if there has been any discussion and consensus around all these documentary by topic stubs you have been creating? Also, should I assume that the image you have been using in the template -- is that Jimbo? -- is supposed to be a placeholder? Whoever it is, it's inappropriate for the nature category, certainly. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:33, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the speedy reply, and good work. I'm probably one of the more active editors in the Docs by topic area, so I shall start using these new stubs. As for Jimmy W. in the nature doc template, yes, I'll try and find some other image, asap. I did not know I could change the image in a stub template. I'm sure there's a guideline on how I should tread in stub template image and I'm sure I can find it -- but if you could point me in the right direction with a link, once again, I'd appreciate it. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I went straight to Wildlife photography and found a great close up side profile of a coyote. Please check out the nature doc template and let me know what you think. It's certainly better than Jimmy W's ubiquitous mug. The image is kind of letterbox dimension so I upped it to 50 pix from 30. Is that too big? thanks, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Thanks for all your help. And btw, I should like to add that some are born to grutness and some have grutness thrust upon, and you are surely an example of both. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
      • :) Grutness...wha? 21:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Template stub descriptions

Hi again, I've been attempting to update the template descriptions for Template:Bio-documentary-stub and its sibling categories to reflect the fact that we now have a growing category for interactive Category:Web documentaries that can take their place alongside TV and radio docs in these stubs. But of course films, thanks to you, should now be diffused to the documentary film stubs by topic subcats. And if that's the case, should we remove all mention of "film" in these higher level docs by topic stubs? Is there a way to state in these template descriptions that films should not be added, or should that simply go on the stub category page itself, and not in the template? I hope I've made sense here.... thanks. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Replied at SoM's page. Grutness...wha?

Great. So I'll just add web documentary to all the top-level doc templates and leave anything else for the category pages themselves. (Now I've got to watch the Grey Cup!) Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps a stupid question...

...but why does Template:France-mil-unit-stub redirect to Category:Germany stubs? Dana boomer (talk) 02:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Good question. No idea. i've changed it to France :) Grutness...wha? 06:57, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, awesome, thanks. I thought maybe I was missing something really obvious (or really archane), hence the reason I didn't do it myself :) Dana boomer (talk) 12:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

...Not a stupid question on your side but apparently it was a stupid dropout or something on my part. I can't even remember why I changed the category there when I only added an icon. De728631 (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Category:Indigenous peoples of North America biography stubs

Grutness, do you think it might be time for a split? If so, I think it would be best and most consistent to split along tribal lines, rather than imposed national boundaries between Canada and the US, as so many First Nations overlap. Or we could split along First Nations/Native American; Inuit/Eskimo and Metis. But therein lies the rub: for the first two cases, Canada and the US use different terms. Let me know if you have any thoughts on this... Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Replied at SoM's page. Grutness...wha?

oops...

thanks for that :P sonia♫ 03:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Mark's antipodes

Your Grutness,

I wonder what you think of User:Nankai/List_of_land_antipodes_of_New_Zealand?

Mark Price of Otago Daily Times wrote a book on the topic and has asked me to put the major data of his voyage on a Misplaced Pages page. I'm just concerned about the "primary reasearch" rule and the fact that it's lifted wholesale from a book (even though it's with the author's permission). Can you take me through the wikiethics of this?

PeterNankai (talk) 20:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

antipodes

nice one JamesNankai (talk) 22:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC) Oops: not you, Schwede66Nankai (talk) 22:11, 9 December 2010 (UTC) Thanks. hey maybe I'll just be boldNankai (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

weasel outbreak

in Zealandia (personification): thought you'd be interested because it's slightly vexillogocal and because I put your Palmerstom pic in the gallery there.Peter Nankai (talk) 20:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Peter. Weirdly, there's another connection, as the original model for the woman on the Coat of Arms was very probably my ex's grandmother. James Grutness...wha? 21:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

So was Zealandia related to Silas Spragg of the Otago Daily Times?

Fascinating. As long as you're here, wd you mind peeking at Tōhoku Jūkan Line; I can't spot the missing ref tag anywhereNankai (talk) 06:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

ooops: got it. The importance of the missing ">" was "greater than" I realised.Nankai (talk) 06:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Cleanup-weighted

Template:Cleanup-weighted has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Mhiji (talk) 23:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Ash Creek, Mechanicsville, Virginia

The article Ash Creek, Mechanicsville, Virginia has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Non-notable subdivision

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. RL0919 (talk) 06:24, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I have never heard of Ash Creek, Mechanicsville, Virginia (in fact, I've never heard of Mechanicsville, Virginia), so I suspect you must have the wrong person. Looking at the article, I agree that it seems non-notable, though populated places are not normally prodded - they usually go through a full AfD process. Grutness...wha?

Looks like you did a page move that caused Twinkle to mis-identify you as the page creator. One of the downsides of using automated tools. Sorry about that. RL0919 (talk) 15:36, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

S'alright. Looking at the history I see that you're right, and that my move was incorrect - I'd assumed that VA was the Australian state of Victoria! Grutness...wha? 21:08, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Re: NZFC

Fully support your decision re: naming of NZFC article. Makes sense in terms of Misplaced Pages's style guidelines. I don't know if NZFC remains as the official un-sponsored name for the tournament (it was to be renamed any before ASB came on board) but with no official word in the public domain and as the most recent clean name, I think it's the best choice for the duration of ASB's sponsorship. Keep up the good work! Gialloneri (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

File source problem with File:NZ-Banks P.png

Thank you for uploading File:NZ-Banks P.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 04:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

File source problem with File:NZ-Banks P.png

Thank you for uploading File:NZ-Banks P.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 21:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

This is getting faintly ridiculous. I made the copyright status clear and provided info about the map's source - what else do you need? Grutness...wha? 22:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

File:NZ-Banks P.png listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:NZ-Banks P.png, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Israel-archaeology-stub

Thanks for creating the Israel-archaeology-stub template. I hope you don't mind I replaced the photo, I thought the the template could do with something better than some undistinguished room from Masada. Poliocretes (talk) 10:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Mucking In

The article Mucking In has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

A search for references ("Mucking In" Jim Mora) found a single published (gBooks) source, which is primary (written by Jim Mora) fails WP:N

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 00:45, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

A one-minute search for references using Google found a considerable number - what search system did you use? Grutness...wha? 04:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Indef full protect on South Island nationalism

Hi Grutness. I was recently checking indef fully protected pages here and came across South Island nationalism. I noticed that you fully protected the article back in October to stop an edit-war. Looks like things have died down a bit on the page, although there's still interested editors chiming in on the talk page. I wanted to get your thoughts on perhaps unprotecting the page per the third pillar and perhaps following up with blocks to users who continue to work without consensus.

I'm bringing this here rather than at WP:RFPP because it seems you have more background in this than my 5-10 minutes of research. Additionally, because of your declared minor conflict, I'm going to ask Zscout370 to comment here. Hope that's not out of line. If you do wish to unprotect the page, feel free to take action as I am not an admin. Hope all is well!--Gnowor_C 23:26, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Gnowor - basically, as you may have read on the talk page, I asked several other Admins to look at the page, with the comment that if they saw the problem as being one where the protection could be removed, then they were completely free to do so with no comeback from me. I was uneasy about adding the protection in the first place due to my frequent editing of the page, but it did seem at the time that one editor was engaging in what we could call reductio ad stubbium. I'm still perfectly happy to have other admins remove the protection if things are fine there (I haven't actually visited that page for some time, leaving it to others do decide one way or the other - ZScout370's certainly in a more objective position to judge than I am). As far as hoping all is well, thanks - things are pretty much returned to normal for me, though I'm not nearly as active on WP as I once was. :) Grutness...wha? 08:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Got it. I'm going to ask an admin at WP:RFPP to take a look, as Zscout has deferred to you, and you're deferring to others. I hope this is okay. Feel free to add your opinion regarding the protection status at that forum as your background on the article could be helpful. Thanks!--Gnowor_C 16:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

*sigh* And no sooner has the article been unprotected than the nonsense has begun again. This time it's accompanied by a false edit summary (claiming to combine two sections while in fact deleting one entirely). I'm not experienced enough to know what to do from here after reverting it (BRD is about the limit of my understanding) so any suggestions would be welcome. Daveosaurus (talk) 05:35, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

After yet more nonsense I believe at least one sock puppet is involved. See this by a brand new editor. Daveosaurus (talk) 08:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

We might have to semi that article. I have been watching it for a while,and I just think it is going to be the subject of edit waring a a long while yet... Brian | (Talk) 09:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Semi-ing's not going to help, since the main problem editor is not an anon. Grutness...wha? 09:35, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Semi plus an SPI on the problem editor(s)?--Gnowor_C 16:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to track down a list of all the accounts with unconstructive edits (vandal, or consensus defying). I'll post that list here initially. I'd love your thoughts on those users, Grut, before I post it over at SPI. Thanks so much!--Gnowor_C 16:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed alternate solution for vandalism

Here's a summary of all of the non-constructive edits since the unprotect: (Updated 17:01, January 15, 2011 (UTC))

• Teroamahai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  • (incorrect edit summary for pure removal of content)
  • (same removal. On talk page, editor claims content is duplicated, but it is not.)
  • Looking at user's contributions, user appears to be a single-purpose account. Possible sock for this purpose? Going to look back to prior to the October protect for potential sockmaster.
• 118.93.49.216 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
  • (positive edit by this IP, indicating semi might not be appropriate)
  • (Assuming good faith, IP editor adds links to primary not secondary sources, possibly as they're unaware of policy. Links removed in next diff)
• Kevohkevin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  • (redirect vandalism)
  • Sock of Teroamahai that's dissatisfied with outcome?

Based on this, I think that a semi may even be inappropriate. Looks like it's just a single editor (Teroamahai) that needs to be removed from the debate here. Full protect might be warranted to stop Teroamahai pending results of an WP:SPI, but given that an IP did make a positive contribution, I must object to protecting this page. I'll add to the above list as I look further back in the history.--Gnowor_C 16:38, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

No sooner than I find myself in the middle of a dispute on which I have far too little knowledge, I realize that I have other real world duties I must attend to. I'll leave you (Grutness) and Zscout to handle this. I very highly recommend this be taken to WP:RFC, as indef. full protection is not an ideal solution for any page on Misplaced Pages. Perhaps there, you'll find a better solution. Sorry if I've caused a headache for anyone else as a result of this. My actions were purely motivated by the desire to bring this into conformity with the third pillar.--Gnowor_C 17:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The New Munster Cross info added by the anon is not typical of Teroamahai, but is typical of another problem editor to the article, who has repeatedly added this information about a nn group to the article, always with primary sources (there appear to be no secondary sources about this group). The New Munster Cross information almost certainly should not be in the article. It is because there is more than one problem editor that I haven't taken this to RFC in the past - there are two, with seemingly completely diffferent agendas. The Kevohkevin edit may be Teroamahai, but I'm not convinced wone way or the other - I'm fairly sure that Teroamaahai has used socks in the past on this article, though. Grutness...wha? 18:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Solution here should involve some form of blocks for the problematic editors. Was assuming the New Muenster Cross edits were in good faith, and asked for them to be brought back in. I was assuming they could be sourced, but I'll take your word that group has no secondary coverage. Potential for mediation or arbitration between problem editors? I agree that the middle ground is probably best, or have an NPOV article with (sourced) sections regarding the alternative notable viewpoints. Whatever the article winds up being, should be brought about consensus, which I saw you trying to get to on the talk page. If editors continue to defy consensus, the editors should be blocked rather than a protect on the article. I think that last point is where we disagree.

I'm of the view the blocks and protects are supposed to be used on those things which can't be fixed. An article on which there can be a fix shouldn't be protected. An editor that refuses to edit in conformity with consensus can't be fixed and should be blocked. Thanks for your continued efforts on this.--Gnowor_C 18:55, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that ideally blocks should go in place on the editors. problem is that the New Munster-supporting editor generally edits as an anon, and one of those "revolving IP" systems - at the very least they can only really be stopped by a semi-prot. Teroamahai, I'm pretty sure, has been blocked temporarily in the past - some sort of ban from editing articles connected with New Zealand regionalism nwpould be the best solution, which would need an RFC... but then again there's also the problem of the possible socks he's used. Whatever happens, it seems a multi-stage blocking/protection process is required. Grutness...wha? 01:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I know that pending changes protection theoretically isn't being added to new pages, but it seems like that'd be the perfect fix for this page (specifically PC2 protection). Think there's any chance that we could appeal for it's implementation in this case?--Gnowor_C 07:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Mmmmmm. That might do it, yes... if we can get it implemented. Grutness...wha? 10:20, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

According to this it looks like it's still being added to pages. Perhaps apply pending changes and see what happens?--Gnowor_C 20:11, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Given the lack of response here, I took this to WP:RFPP and requested that PC2 be applied. An admin there declined, but I did request that they offer and opinion as to whether it's permissible to add PC2 to pages. If they confirm it is permissible, I would greatly appreciate your support in applying PC2. Thanks so much!--Gnowor_C 17:23, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry - combination of Real World (tm) and not noticing this note. Have commented on the PC2 request now. Grutness...wha? 22:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

No worries at all. There's this thing called law school that's been interrupting my own ability to contribute. Thank you for your continued attention and consideration on this. Have a great day!--Gnowor_C 05:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

New Zealand

Hi Grutness. I have been doing some work on the NZ article with the aim of getting it featured at some point. I noticed the Caversham article on the main page a while ago so any advice or help would be appreciated. There are quite a few people watching the article so don't feel obliged if the real world is keeping you busy. Either way I have left some comments on the talk page. Cheers AIRcorn (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I spammed a few other users that seem to be interested in NZ (Gadfium, Avenue, Kahuroa and Simon) with positive replies so far. AIRcorn (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

File:JamesDignan.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:JamesDignan.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Why did you replace the free image with the earlier copyrighted one? Grutness...wha? 21:30, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Which one was copyrighted - the painting that was moved to Commons? That was the top version in the history and the one displaying on your userpage (it was renamed when it was moved to Commons). Kelly 21:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The painting is fine - the photograph now displaying at File:JamesDignan.jpg is copyrighted. Grutness...wha? 21:47, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Cool, all should be well then. The painting is now at File:Grutness user self-portrait.jpg on Commons and displayed on your userpage, the photo is not used anywhere. You can either let File:JamesDignan.jpg be deleted through the FFD process or tag it yourself with {{db-self}}. Kelly 21:54, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Or just delete it myself. I've not had much dealing with image files though, and since the process has started at FFD, it might be best to just let it continue there. Grutness...wha? 22:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Online Ambassadors

I saw you have been really active lately and I clicked on over to your user page and was pretty impressed. Would you be interested in helping with the WP:Online_Ambassadors program? It's really a great opportunity to help university students become Misplaced Pages contributers. I hope you apply to become an ambassador, Sadads (talk) 00:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to stick my nose into here, but I noticed that the Online Ambassadors are supposed to help students who have been given editing assignments on Misplaced Pages. I was wondering about the other side of the equation - how do you match your students with the ambassador programme? Guettarda (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Sadads, and thanks for the comments - unfortunately the Real World is taking up more of my time than it used to, so not at the moment... but I'll keep it in mind for a future date. FWIW I do my but on this score, though - I've tutored students at a polytechnic class about Misplaced Pages! :) Grutness...wha? 05:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC) (PS -Hi Guettarda - how're things in Trinidad?)

Drobeta and stubs

Hi! I saw you removed the stubs from the Drobeta (ancient city) redirect. I am not sure if you noticed, but it has a {{R with possibilities}}. If you look at the template description, it clearly suggests stubs in case of this special redirects so people can see it and get involved in expanding it. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks --Codrin.B (talk) 01:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Minha Opiniao: Lukapa is not capitaly of Lunda-Norte, the capitaly is Dundo. Xá-Muteba, is not Sham-Muteba. Cambulo, is not Caumbo.

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.78.18.134 (talk) 11:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Huh? Grutness...wha?

The/the Beatles

Yes folks, it's here again. Please look at this link and leave your vote. I thank you.--andreasegde (talk) 08:07, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Princes Street, Dunedin Good Article

I am reviewing Princes Street, Dunedin as a good article (). You can view the discussion at Talk:Princes Street, Dunedin/GA1.

RCSprinter123 (talk) 17:36, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of New Leinster Province for deletion

The article New Leinster Province is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/New Leinster Province until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Article Move

Hi Grutness, Got your message about moving Peter Montgomery's page. When you say he is most often referred to as "Pete", he's actually most commonly referred to as PJ, far less people refer to him as Pete. Accordingly, I'd like to move the page to PJ_Montgomery, if we can't move it to Peter. Thanks! Veruca salt12 (talk) 00:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)Veruca_Salt12

That would make some sense. I'd forgotten all about that proposal-it was months ago! Grutness...wha? 00:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

re WP:STREET

Just came across this. Very nice work, thank you. Herostratus (talk) 02:56, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Glad it's appreciated! Grutness...wha? 23:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Herostratus. It's a good piece of work. Well done. Schwede66 09:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

:) thanks! Grutness...wha? 20:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Been Gone Too Long

Hi there! I'm trying to come back after a rather long break. Law school and the bar exam took away my wiki time. I'm trying to get my bearings again and feeling rather confused about things that've changed since I've been gone. I've been looking at {{CAnatolia-geo-stub}} which is placing all its stubs in ] to try to make it stop doing that and overpopulating that category. I don't see any text in the template making it behave that way, and I don't see any categories in the stubbed articles either. Thoughts?

Also, I just saw that you were ill. I know it's almost two years later now, but I'm very sorry to hear wiki was affecting you that way. I hope that all is well now and that you'll enjoy good health for many years to come. Aelfthrytha (talk) 14:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back! Hopefully the study all went well and IANAL no longer applies to you ;) My health's okay, but 2009-10 was a pretty terrible time one way and another. I'm pretty much back to normal now, but I keep my WP work low-key and as stress-free as possible these days.

As far as CAnatolia-geo-stub is concerned, I can't actually see the problem you mentioned - it looks fine to me, and the Central Anatolia permcat doesn't seem to be overloaded. All the stubs have been turned into the asbox type now, which pretty much standardises them... it might be that they're now using hidden categories, but I don't think so. If the problem looks like persisting, run it by Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Stub sorting - someone who knows more about coding than I do might be able to work out what's going on. Grutness...wha? 20:52, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Nope, IANAL still. New York state moves as fast as peanut butter oozing downhill. We took the bar in July, got pass results in November, were interviewed for fitness to practice in February, and no swearing in until March. Goodness gracious. Aelfthrytha (talk) 12:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

IAAL! Aelfthrytha (talk) 04:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

stubs for categorization of hotels

Hi. You're the guy for stub-sorting, right? Could you look at:

• User talk:Dawynn#hotel company stubs and
• Misplaced Pages:Stub types for deletion/Log/2011/February/8

I'm trying to figure out what all has happened here; about a hundred stub templates have been edited by Dawynn and hundreds of articles have had their stubs swapped. The net effect is to no longer categorize them by by company, but rather as structures, which seem completely off to me. Cheers, Jack Merridew 19:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

United Tribes of New Zealand

Any reason why you didn't just revert the POV pushing edits? Since I've replied to you on the talk page, I'm reluctant to revert again without some feedback from you (or others).-gadfium 06:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I simply don't know enough about the subject to know whether it should be reverted or counterbalanced with opposing info. I've reverted now though. I see from the page history that the same anon has done other dubious edits in the past, so I've semi-protected the page for a month. Hopefully that'll stop things. Grutness...wha? 22:14, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Princes Street, Dunedin Good Article

Sorry. I am a little busy at the moment I will try to get to it as soon as i can - nearly there though.

RCSprinter123 (talk) 12:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Opportunity to comment on Batavia

There is a discussion starting up at Talk:Batavia (disambiguation), that may be of interest to you. The subject is technically a page move discussion, but the purpose of the discussion is to decide where Batavia should redirect. Until earlier today, Batavia redirected to History of Jakarta, but during this discussion, it is redirecting to Batavia (disambiguation). Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

Thanks for your help. HuskyHuskie (talk) 22:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

You are receiving this because you are one of the principal editors of one of the articles that is linked to Batavia (disambiguation). This notice is being posted to all of the top three editors of each of these articles (in terms of total edits), with the following exceptions:

This is an attempt to be a neutrally-phrased posting in keeping with the principles of WP:CANVASS. If you find anything in the wording or the manner posted to be a violation of that guideline, please notify me at my talk page.

Misunderstanding

I apologize if I came around as being a bit harsh the other day. Sometimes pressure at work gets to you. I feel as if I have misundertood the difference between stub and portal. Therefore, I am sorry if I jumped the gun when I saw your deletions. Furthermore, when we begin in wikipedia, not too many of us know that we have to suggest templates before making them. So now I know, and I have learnt through the experience. I hope that I have not offended you, since it was not my intention. The words mate and dear chap', were meant in a joking manner. Sincerely! Joe--142.169.118.147 (talk) 03:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I also apologise if I have offended you in any way - it was never my intention to do so. Might I suggest that if you want to encourage editing on subjects relating to a topic such as New Spain it might be an idea to try to form a specific WikiProject for it, inviting other editors who have done work on the subject to join (looking at the page histories of articles relating to the subject should help you find some, and you can also leave invitations on the talk pages of articles connected with the topic and any related WikiProjects, e.g., Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Mexico, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Texas). If you did that, then you could also create an talk page assessment template for any articles connected to the subject, which would probably be far more useful to you than a stub template. Grutness...wha? 05:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Princes Street

Hey, Grutness. I see that the article is under review by Rcsprinter. Since they've started that review, it's come up that Rcsprinter may not be entirely familiar with our "good" and "featured" criteria, based on their GA and FA nominations and previous GA reviews. Anyway, if you'd like me to take over the review I'll certainly have it done by this evening (in regard to your time zone). If not, I'd still advise you to seek another reviewer; that would probably be best because it would free Rcsprinter of their commitment to the article and it will expedite the review. Regards, Swarm 14:24, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Right, I have no intention of discrediting Rcsprinter's review, but they kind of left it hanging. I'll just jump in and see if we can get the review finished up. Swarm 02:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
• Alright, the review is done. Not much to deal with but I did raise some points. Anyway, I noticed the images you uploaded were on Misplaced Pages. You should really upload free images to Commons, if you didn't know that already. Just passing through to share this bit of information. Regards, Swarm 02:53, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that - I think I've addressed a couple of the points. As for the photos, yes, I should upload them directly to commons, but for some reason my internet link seems to object to me uploading things there (I'm on a slow dial-up link, and for some reason uploading to commons is far slower than uploading to WP. I've never really understood it, but that's the reason why I generally just upload to WP). Grutness...wha? 08:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

• • Oh, alright. That makes sense. Article's been listed, BTW. Regards, Swarm 20:35, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

My stubs

Sir! Any chance of placing Kingdom of France stubs and New Spain stubs off the deletion list. I have now added 28 articles to Kingdom of France and 10 to New Spain. I will continue to do so every day now! However, if they were badly formated, is it possible to format them correctly as you had suggested. {{KingdomofFrance-stub}} and {{NewSpain-stub}} and retaining the articles I had listed in each of them. I can understand the necessity for this process when you look at all the stubs created for football, linebackers, hotels, etc. So many and in a way useless. I can assure you that this will not be the case here because it covers a large scope of subjects. Your cooperation on my behalf will be and is greatly apprecitated. I also thank you for the suggestions given to me, I will definitely put them into practice.--Chnou (talk) 21:15, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I must admit I'm still not entirely happy with the stub types, but it seems that they do have a use - I'll rename the templates, though, so the nominations can be effectively closed. Grutness...wha? 22:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I wish you a good day! You must have wonderful weather there! Here it is -15 with more than 300 cms of snow! The gesture is much appreciated!--Chnou (talk) 22:36, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Brrr! Still, spring can't be far away now... It's warm, but windy here today (about 25 C). Grutness...wha? 22:46, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I am putting the words together so you do not have the trouble of doing it! Thank you!--Chnou (talk) 22:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! Only the KoF ones left to do... Grutness...wha? 22:52, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Re: Croatia geography stub categories

Yes in fact we talked about it :) See Misplaced Pages:WSS/P#further_subcategorize_Croatia_geography_stubs. As I explained earlier, I just couldn't see the point in leaving the tree so unbalanced, so to speak. Those three small ones are a small price to pay for consistency IMHO. --Joy (talk) 23:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you :) --Joy (talk) 10:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Scots Law

My understanding of this is that it is indeed officially known as "Scots law".

"The subcategories seem to be a mix & match of the two demonyms (Category:Scots property law but Category:Scottish case law, for instance). Is there a reason for this or does it need to be made uniform with one name of the other?"

I really don't know. I hear a mix of the two used colloquially, but I doubt this is much guide to what they are known as officially. Scots law is currently a hodge podge, partly because of what Westminster has done to it, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was a mix.

For example, "depute" is the proper old Scots title for "deputy" and appears in numerous titles, but we have a "deputy first minister"!!! --MacRusgail (talk) 19:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

It's probably worth investigating this. I know a lawyer and will ask his opinion.--MacRusgail (talk) 12:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The Reed Dictionary of Māori Place Names

Hi Grutness. I notice you added a reference with the above book to Raratoka Island (thanks for the expansion by the way). I was hoping you might be able to look something up for me. I have a source that says the name "Tawhiti comes from Tahiti", but I am not sure what Tawhiti it is referring to. I have linked to the Poor Knights Island (i.e. Tawhiti Raha), but there is also a Tawhiti in Taranaki (which seems to just consist of a school and Museum now). I was hoping the book may confirm (or deny) this. I have a similar query about Rukumoana, I created a stub linking to the Marae near Morrinsville although the origin of the name is not made clear and is probably not as dodgy as the Tawhiti link. This all relates to the New Zealand place names article. Cheers AIRcorn (talk) 05:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Aircorn - the book I have is the Reed dictionary of NZ placenames, not specifically Maori ones, and there are a few inaccuracies in it which I've noticed (or at least alternative meanings/origins to ones that I've seen mentioned elsewhere), but here's what it says about Tawhiti:

Tawhiti (Bay of Plenty) Literally "trap" or "snare". It was here that Pawa, the Bay of Plenty chief, set a trap to catch Rongokokako, the giant of Kahuranaki. It is a hill overlooking a small secluded bay named Waimahuru. An old proverb says "Ara te korero e piki ra i Tawhiti-a-Pawa, tokoto noa Waimahuru" ("While tidings go over Tawhiti-a-Pawa, Waimahuru remains solitary"). Tawhiti is either a name or enters into a name in many parts of New Zealand, usually denoting the homeland. Tawhiti is 3km from Hawera, and another 18km from Alexandra.

Presumably the Tahiti connection is the places where the homeland is denoted, given the presumed origin of the Maori migrations. Hope that helps! Grutness...wha? 09:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Not a definitive answer, but at least it doesn't contradict the other source. I will delink the Poor Knights however as I can't justify that beyond wishful thinking and original research at this stage. I left a message at the Maori taskforce so hopefully someone might be able to help from there. Otherwise I will keep trawling the web and see if I stumble on anything. Cheers AIRcorn (talk) 10:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Sydenham Heritage Church

Hi Grutness!
Good to see you are editing, so apparently not too badly affected by the Quake.
Is it OR to use Flickr photos as a source, as this church is apparently no more(demolished)? Post quake link shows before and after. Apparently badly damaged and demolished sometime on/or before the 24th February. Text saying this this was on the page but unreferenced and hence reverted.

Commons has some pics and info, here but I suppose we need a print/online reliable source? Which I am unable to find at the moment! - 220.101 talk 14:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi 220.101 - most of the problems with photos are usually as a result of copyright rather than OR - and you'd have problems with that with any flickr photos you used. Unfortunately because of the fact that flickr is often used incorrectly in that way on WP (and also because it basically counts as a blog) flickr references are automatically reverted by bot. At the moment I don't think there'd be any problems if an unreferenced sentence saying that the building had been demolished was placed in the article - it's the sort of thing which can be referenced at a later date and (though there doesn't seem to be a reliable source that can be used as a reference online yet) there doesn't seem to be any doubt that there's evidence that the church has gone, and reliable references are likely to become available soon enough (the historic places trust register will give the full details at some point, for instance). Grutness...wha? 22:01, 27 February 2011 (UTC) PS - thanks for the concern - I'm 350km south of Chch, so not affected directly. I felt the quake, and several of my friends are in the quake zone (all well AFAIK, though one has lost her house).

Grutness (aka my wiki Superman!)

Grutness (aka my wiki Superman!) - Wow! Your kindness touch me. Thank you so much for helping me cross-link a redirect w/(disambiguation) 12/04/2010 ~Diane

My passion.. Inclusive design Backstory: I'd been searching the net for best practices (section 508 - photo captioning etc). Didn't even know the artist...notice the cross-link needed to be updated. Easy fix right? Hours later...I sent out my first ever distress call for help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dianeheudier (talk • contribs) 05:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Diane -not sure exactly what I did that you appreciated so much :) All I did was fix a stub template link... glad it was appreciated though! Grutness...wha? 12:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Administrative decision needed on stub sorting

If you have time, could you please help reach a decision on the hotel deletion discussions from Feb 8? There was some opposition to my original proposal, but no one commented on the revised proposals. I'm willing to help on whatever changes the community agrees on, but just need to have a final decision. Dawynn (talk) 13:59, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Probably better if it's someone who was uninvolved in the original discussion, like Waacstat or Pegship. Grutness...wha? 22:00, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Just curious

Hi James, This edit plus an AWB cleanup on another article which moved the category below the stub template made me wonder why the ordering of the various "invisibles" matters, and what the optimal order is? dramatic (talk) 20:31, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dramatic - the optimal order is infoboxes, then categories, then stub templates, then interwiki links. Putting stub templates below infoboxes makes them less intrusive into the article, and putting them below categories ensures that the stub category is at the end of the list of categories rather than at the beginning. Other than that, it's mainly just so that there's a set order to make them easier to find. I'm pretty sure i/w links are last to help people to add other-language links to articles they may not be able to read (if they don't speak a particular language) without having to hunt for the right place to add links. Grutness...wha? 23:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation!dramatic (talk) 09:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Can you get out your admin mop?

I accidentally made the new Afghanistan stub split categories at Category:Foo geography stubs instead of at Category:Foo Province geography stubs. If you'll fix it, I promise to hold still for my well deserved pummeling. Thanks. Aelfthrytha (talk) 01:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

the Closet article

Dear Grutness, Thanks for trying, and yes I know all about WP:IMPERFECT. I have written lots of articles over the past 5 years many of which have stood the test of time very well. And I am perfectly well aware that what I wrote is entirely interesting, suitably-written and appropriate for Misplaced Pages. In an article of 2 short paragraphs with perfectly adequate citation for sources, however, to find it immediately beset by tagging because it doesn't contain a mass of inline footnotes is enough to p*** me off thoroughly. I will spare you the words that sprang to my lips - and so I removed my work because I would rather do that than engage with another editor whom, I strongly suspect, has not yet taken the trouble to investigate the sources which I HAVE cited in the article. Bless you for trying to repair the situation, you are a good soul. If anyone else thinks the article is interesting or worth reviving, let them by all means do as they please. I shall never bother to look at it again. Cheers and best wishes to you, Eebahgum (talk) 11:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Auckland Misplaced Pages Meetup

Hey. We're having an Auckland Misplaced Pages meetup on April 9. Details are at Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Auckland. Would love to see you there. :) --LauraHale (talk) 02:14, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Hyphenation of compound modifiers in articles on New Zealand subjects

WP:HYPHEN mentions nothing about New Zealand. I will bring it up on its talk page, as you seem to think they have overlooked something. Chris the speller  21:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

As was pointed out on that talk page, The Write Style Manual for Standards New Zealand recommends the following:

Do not hyphenate a compound adjective when the adverb ends in -ly.

Examples

a badly written letter

a lightly whisked egg

This seems to negate your claim that such hyphens are retained in New Zealand. Chris the speller  00:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

A random corporate style-guide, largely and expressly based on non-Kiwi sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

But provided by the NZ Parliament. I picked the first two articles from its home page:

How Parliament works

Legislation - Bills

And commissioned by the national Standards organisation. dramatic (talk) 07:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

They each use standard -ly adverbs in compound modifiers, with nary a hyphen. Maybe they outsourced their web site to Hackensack, New Jersey? Chris the speller  02:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Given that this is the same government that wanted to remove apostrophes from place names such as "Arthurs Pass" (sic), it wouldn't surprise me at all. NZ's government is the last place I'd look for linguistic guidance. Grutness...wha? 05:54, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Please do not add hyphens after -ly adverbs. Could you read the MoS on hyphens (and dashes, while we're at it). Mr Anderson has come here, BTW, to stir up trouble over the fact that we have a strong, centralised style guide, which he objects to in concept. He has been blocked multiple times, the last time only recently, for edit-warring over his pet peeve. Tony (talk) 04:48, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
  • All right, if I must. I'm simply going by the usually-accepted method of hyphenating such terms in New Zealand. Without them, It is very easy to produce less clearly-expressed language, which is something which must surely be avoided wherever possible. I'd ask you to try parsing the following sentence to see what I mean: "The hospital was filled with poorly paid workers." Were they poorly-paid, or were they ill professionals? Grutness...wha? 05:54, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

But then you would follow the MoS and use a hyphen because it is necessary to clarify ambiguity - or better still, you would recast the sentence to avoid the ambiguity. Since there has been no offer of a Reliable Source either documenting or prescribing this use of hyphens in NZEng, I'm for sticking with the norm. dramatic (talk) 07:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm really a bit confused by this all - the idea of not hyphenating pre-noun adjectives with adverbial modifiers is something I've never come across in years of professional writing, editing, subediting, and proofreading - it is also contrary to the house style of the news media I've been involved with, as can be seen from some of the headlines put out from them: , , . If it's only adverbs ending in -ly, then it's pretty arbitrary - more so if you have to hyphenate ambiguous ones. What is the difference between hyphenating "poorly-conceived notion" and hyphenating "ill-conceived notion" (especially since poorly and ill can both mean sick). And if you don't hyphenate ill+adjective before a noun you open up all sorts of ambiguities. Topping it all off is the fact that, prior to my first reply above, there were three comments (other than yours; I consider your comments automatically excellent and non-criticisable :) - the first supported the MoS and was okay, but a later comment by the same commenter was sarcastic to the point of being questionable. The second made a valid point and was then pounced on by the third editor, who put down the seemingly valid observation as those of a troublemaker with a "pet peeve" - again hardly Wikiquette compliant. Not to mention the fact that a pet peeve can often be a justifiable one. Yet it was the second editor - the one who simply made a valid point - who is apparently the rogue editor. Grutness...wha? 11:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I've now looked at several New Zealand style guides and none of them give ly examples for compound modifiers (and the University of Canterbury's doesn't appear to know the difference between hyphens and dashes (it calls an em-dash a long hyphen)). This lighthearted article from Salient explains it rather well though: However, if the adjective is preceded by an adverb, no hyphen is necessary, as adverbs can’t modify nouns—they describe the how, when, where and why, modifying verbs and adjectives—so it is clear that it modifies the adjective and not the noun. Adverbs commonly end in -ly. And in your example above, poorly is a bit of a rarity - a word which can be both an adverb and an adjective. dramatic (talk) 12:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Grutness' example of "The hospital was filled with poorly paid workers." would be taken by the average reader to mean that the workers are not well paid; if the writer meant that the paid workers were ill, the addition of a comma would make all the difference: "The hospital was filled with poorly, paid workers." Or, better yet, as Dramatic advises, recast the sentence. The -ly ending indicates that the word is an adverb that modifies the following word, and that is found to be enough indication throughout the English-speaking world. I doubt that many New Zealanders find it difficult to read a newspaper or magazine from Sydney or Manchester because of the paucity of hyphens. I looked for an online punctuation guide from a New Zealand university, and the closest thing I found was "Getting to Grips with Grammar, Spelling and Punctuation", which is an Auckland U. course description that uses three -ly adverbs in compound modifiers, all without hyphens. I am afraid that I assumed that light-hearted remarks would cause no offense, or offence; I will try to avoid any repetition. Chris the speller  13:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Apology accepted :) Okay, if the consensus is for there to be no hyphens, I'll accept that, though it still comes as a surprise, amd still doesn't explain why adverbs which don't end -ly aren't treated the same way. Grutness...wha? 23:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The reason is that the -ly ending immediately alerts the reader that it is an adverb, and adverbs are usually followed by the adjective or verb that is being modified. When an adverb that does not end in -ly begins a compound modifier, a hyphen is used to tie it to what is being modified, such as "the well-fed cat", where you otherwise would not know that "well" is an adverb until you pieced the rest of the phrase together. Happy editing! Chris the speller  00:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced - that suggests that (a) adverbs that don't end in -ly may be other things, which isn't always the case, and (b) words that nend in-ly and which modify adjectives are always adverbs, which is also not always the case. Seems pretty arbitrary, but if that's the moS recommendation, I'll try to keep to it. Grutness...wha? 10:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)