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RFC: Côte d'Ivoire or Ivory Coast

Should Misplaced Pages refer to this country as Côte d'Ivoire or Ivory Coast? The argument for Ivory Coast is that the most commonly used name by English sources for this country, and therefore per WP:NCGN should be called Ivory Coast. The argument for Côte d'Ivoire is that both terms are equally common used in English, and therefore it should be kept at its last stable name, which is Côte d'Ivoire. I would like to remark that for the sake of consistency this is a discussion about what to call the country in all articles where in it is referred to.TheFreeloader (talk) 17:52, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Three previous naming discussions

• Discussion 1 – no clear result, favoured Côte d'Ivoire
• Discussion 2 – no consensus to move
• Discussion 3 – no consensus to move, favoured Ivory Coast

Hypothetically if we take CDI's side and sources were split (50:50), then surely even that would be split between Cote d'Ivoire and Côte d'Ivoire? We have seen that some media use both, surely therefore this means that Ivory Coast is the most common name in media and usage? I have personally (here in the UK) never heard anyone say/write/speak about Cote d'Ivoire, to me its always been IC, especially with the football :) Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

• Ivory Coast is the common English name for the country in question. The English language wikipedia should not be using the french language name. Ivory coast should be used throughout the English language wikipedia for obvious reasons. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:19, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

• Coverage of the recent FIFA World Cup, for one, has clearly established that Ivory Coast is the normal name of this country in English. PatGallacher (talk)

• As to Ivory Coast, yes as an English speaking Canadian i have known that that is the English translation however i have throughout my life known the country by Côte d'Ivoire. As to coverage of the World Cup using Ivory Coast one need only look at the team's crest, as taken from FIFA File:FIF NewCrest.png, wherein it is blatantly obvious that Côte d'Ivoire is the name in use. Dito for the team on the English fifa.com To have the country article by one name and then national teams and organisations appear under another name is just odd. bbc.co.uk is split over the name; you need to search both to find all mention. Just because i love to cite it, the CIA World Fact Book lists it as Côte d'Ivoire https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iv.html while listing every other country by it's common English name. delirious & lost ☯ 21:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The article about the North Korean team is placed at Korea DPR national football team, while the country is placed at North Korea. Although the North Korean national team's article should in my opinion get changed too, as I would mean WP:COMMONNAME takes precedence over whatever FIFA has to say about the matter.TheFreeloader (talk) 23:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Lets not fool ourselves. There are so many clauses in various Manuals of Style so as to render things to various uncommon names it is not funny. Just look at any person known by two letters and a surname. Most do not put a space in their name, many articles are titled with a space because the wikipedia:manual of style says it can be done despite that making it an uncommon name, and still throughout many such articles the space between the letters is not present (ie the content of the article actually uses the common name). Such is also the case for anything else, even countries. Éire is an article on the word itself, Ireland is an article on the island, and Republic of Ireland is for the country. I mention this because it gets me every time. I type Éire when i am looking for the country. Suggesting a national team article be renamed to make it fall in line with the country is a little different from suggesting a country be renamed despite (all?) other articles, logos, and well most anything i can think of officially having the country in common usage by a different name. Not that i am a big fan of them but i thought my CIA link above pretty demonstrative of official accepted English name from the country so many here come from. Anyway... delirious & lost ☯ 22:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

• I've made this case up above several times but I'll restate it again here for completeness. Despite being composed of French words, "Côte d'Ivoire" is an English name for the country. It is used -- untranslated and on its own -- in a large number and variety of reliable English language sources. There are certainly contexts where "Ivory Coast" is more common (sports coverage, certain news agencies). But there are also contexts where "Côte d'Ivoire" is more common. In official/diplomatic sources, for example, Côte d'Ivoire has completely displaced Ivory Coast as the commonly used name. Côte d'Ivoire also seems to be more common in recent sources. If we search Google Books or Google Scholar for English-language publications in the last decade, Côte d'Ivoire is the clear winner by a significant margin. People who say that we should use "English name" instead of the "French name" don't seem to fully appreciate the way that English can take on place names from other languages (see, for example, how "Livorno" has replaced "Leghorn", "Trois-Rivières" has replaced "Three Rivers", and to a lesser extent, how "River Plate" has generally fallen out of use in favour of "Río de la Plata") WP:EN is not about etymology, it's about usage. And I think the most even-handed appraisal you can make of the usage is that it is generally split. I've certainly never seen clear evidence to establish that one name is generally more common than the other. And given that, I don't see any compelling reason to change away from the current convention of using "Côte d'Ivoire". Orange Tuesday (talk) 23:36, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Google Scholar returns 19,600 results for Ivory Coast searching English results within the last ten year, and Cote d'Ivoire (and Côte d'Ivoire) returns 15,500 results . If you look at Google Books, you get the same kind of results for the last decade, with 58,500 results for Ivory Coast, and 49,000 results for Cote d'Ivoire . And finally if you look at the last decade on Google News, you get 87,600 hits for Ivory Coast and 30,700 hits for Cote d'Ivoire. Pretty clear evidence if you ask me, especially the last one, with almost 3 times as many results for Ivory Coast as for Cote d'Ivoire.TheFreeloader (talk) 00:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, we've been talking about this so long that all the google searches have run together in my head. Looking back on the RM, it was Google Scholar and Google Books showing evenly split usage in the last five years. . The "clear margin" I was thinking of was in the main Google Search itself, which has several million more English language hits for Côte d'Ivoire. I think that still supports what I'm saying: Usage is split, with Côte d'Ivoire being more common in some contexts and Ivory Coast being more common in others.

In fairness to Canada French is an official language there along with English even in Ontario French is a co official language along with English so that is a hazy situation because i have caught the major News Agency the CBC similar to great Britain's BBC still using Ivory Coast] but using the French term as well to a lesser extent,either way you slice it (as said before) Ivory Coast is the older name and is still in common use and with that said how did it get the article name Cote dIvoire name to begin with? Because it is the official name perhaps...and the Governments preferred name or will the nay sayers come back and say well Cote dIviore is the common name also sure it is but could it be demonstrated it is more common than the much Older/Histroical name Ivory Coast? Of course not--Wikiscribe (talk) 01:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

• Whoa, "coverage of the recent FIFA World Cup established Ivory Coast as the normal name"??? What World Cup were you watching? Even the British guy on TheScore, and the British announcer both called it "Cote d'Ivoire", and the flag icon ALWAYS was labelled "COI". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

That was their official title but alot of the reporting i saw said ivory coast when talking about it. BBC - , the Guardian , The telegraph , Yahoo , Daily Mail , Bloomberg , Reuters , Russia Today , The sun , New York Times , Washington Post . I could go on and on but you get the idea. Nobody is claiming that the government of this country uses Ivory coast officially anymore, but it is simple fact that the world media still refers to it as Ivory coast even if they sometimes say the french name as well. The English language name should there for trump the French language name on the English wikipedia BritishWatcher (talk) 09:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Some more.. Financial Times , Sky News , The Mirror , The Times , France 24 (A French news channel in English even used Ivory coast , Fox News , Australian Broadcasting Corporation , Canada Broadcasting Corporation ... Im starting to run out of news organisations i know. Every single one seems to have used Ivory coast atleast once to refer to this country's team at the world cup this year. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Just to touch on France 24 for a second, it highlights the matter perfectly Searches on France 24 for Côte d'Ivoire finds 0 results , where as searches for Ivory Coast finds 90 results . How come the English language French News channel uses our term if use of the French term is so widespread within the English speaking world? This would be funny if it wasnt so serious. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

But again, World Cup coverage is just one context, and sports events often have rules all their own for this kind of thing. The Dutch team was extensively referred to as "Holland" during the tournament, even though it's very uncommon to see that term used for the Netherlands in normal news coverage. Orange Tuesday (talk) 13:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, but we have sources proving Ivory Coast is used by reliable sources for all sorts of things. We accept the government and there for all official diplomatic relations / organisations it is a member of are handled by saying the French name, as that country has demanded, but that is very limited compared to Ivory Coasts use in many parts of the world when talking about many different things. I just wanted to back up Wikiscribes point that Bwilkins rejected about the world cup showing Ivory Coast is still heavily used as its common English language name. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, Bwilkins was talking about televised coverage and you're talking about print coverage and those are two different things. Orange Tuesday (talk) 13:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Well on Sky News / BBC news im sure they used Ivory coast. What was said during the matches i do not know, when ever ive watched a match ive had it on mute because of those annoying horns but i would be very surprised if at no point the commentators or presenters said "Ivory Coast" BBC Sports website certainly used it. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I believe the announcer feeds that CBC picked up in Canada were possibly from BBC. Just as they alternated regularly from "Netherlands", "Holland" and "the Dutch" during play-by-play yesterday, they also would alternate between "Cote d'Ivoire" and "Ivory Coast" during their matches. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

• I think the current title is fine, and these multiple recent move discussions are ridiculous. I also think we have to give weight to what the country's self-declared official title, lest we trael down another dark and depressing path. AniMate 09:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

(insert name of the Deity of your choice) forbid that happen! Seriously. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If this goes to a vote my write-in goes for O My Grand Land Of Love. delirious & lost ☯ 22:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh really maybe next we will censor articles so governments will be happy? If that held weight Burma would be called Myanmar also this is not Holland- Netherlands situation either and sarcasm is not on order here if you can't be mature see your way out of this naming dispute because it is not helpful--Wikiscribe (talk) 16:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Holland/Netherlands is not quite a good example, see we use Holland often informally but most educated people know that 'The Netherlands' is the correct name. This is different to Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire because Many people don't really 'switch' between the terms? I am shocked that sports commentators apparently did so? Bezuidenhout (talk) 16:34, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

That's correct. Most educated people know that The Netherlands is the correct name, and English language news services basically use that name exclusively. But during the World Cup, "Holland" becomes a commonly used name for the team, being used in all manner of reputable sources . I'm not saying the two situations are identical, just pointing out that the World Cup is only one of many contexts, and wide usage there doesn't automatically translate to wide usage in every field.

And let's try not to blow things out of proportion. Censorship isn't an issue here. We're talking about a simple naming dispute. Orange Tuesday (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

So... when can we move it to 'Ivory Coast'?? Another thing I didn't mention earlier was that how to we actually get the page to move? If a voting system doesn't work, then does it just never get moved? There was also a clear majority, not just like 3 vs. 4. Should we just scrap RMs? Moves are obviously impossible to achieve so should we just anchor all articles to never be renamed? Bezuidenhout (talk) 12:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, "The Ivory Coast" is a historical region, not originally a country ... Cote d'Ivoire was a country chunked out of that region. Makes moving more of a challenge, of course as the terms are not interchangable. I do not expect there to ever be a consensus to move this article: it's simply a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Just because you can't get the outcome you want on one page doesn't mean the system is broken. RMs are not majority votes and consensus isn't just about how big the majority is. Orange Tuesday (talk) 13:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I can understand WP:IDONTLIKEIT if there was a sole person going: I prefer Ivory Coast, but this is quite a few people debating whether Ivory Coast should be used instead. There is valuable evidence that Ivory Coast is the most commonly spelt name (since Cote and Côte are even split), and how can you measure the power of an argument in words? Bit bias there? I know what you're saying Orange Tuesday, I think I've heard it about 7 times, but every time I hear it I keep asking the question.. well how can we move it then? Do we need like someone to write an essay or find 500 reliable sources saying Ivory Coast is more common? I just don't get it, so all this Support and Oppose are useless? Should we not just bother with that and instead just say 'I think' or 'I don't think'. Bezuidenhout (talk) 13:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Of all the arguments put forward on this page, Bwilkins still seems to be the strongest. I do not support a move at this time. AniMate 22:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Which arguments? BritishWatcher (talk) 23:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Where he rightly is incredulous that you consider this an attack on the English language for starters. That you are so offended that "this little african country is able to attack the English language" is telling about your POV here. I agree that the argument that FIFA coverage has established Ivory Coast as the preferred name is spurious at best. I agree that the Ivory Coast is a historic region, one we should probably have an article on, thus making the argument that the article should be moved weaker. I also agree that these multiple, recent attempts to move this are getting disruptive. AniMate 23:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I do consider this an attack on the English language, a French name is being imposed on the English language, i can not even type this country's article name on my keyboard, i have to keep using copy and paste to get that o. You can think this is a good thing, but the fact people justify this being the present article name proves the word has been imposed on the English language. When i said "little African country" it was not out of some disrespect, i am just pointing out it is incredible that a small nation is able to dictate to the entire planet how we are meant to call their country in our own languages. The official name of the country's football team is Cote dIvoire, the majority of the media coverage in western english language sources used Ivory coast when talking about it. I have linked above and below a source showing use of Ivory Coast from dozens of major media sources that this English language wikipedia depends on, despite the official name of the team being the French language one, they all have still used Ivory coast. As for ivory coast potentially needing a new article, strange this might only have become an issue now and that at best according to people above the sources are split on if we should say cote/ivory coast. Clearly all reliable sources in the world dont have a concern about its former historic region. As for the multiple recent move attempts, are you serious? From what i can see there has been a formal move request in 2005, 2007, 2010 and one that was opened and closed in a short period of time by an admin the other day suggesting we do a RFC instead. That is hardly disruptive. Does this question get raised on the talk page a lot? You bet, thats because its at the wrong article name. People come here and wonder why its using a french name on an English language wikipedia. I wonder how many times it would have been raised on the talk page about Ivory coast being the wrong name if this article was at that location. Of course we will never know, but id bet it would have been raised less times. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you suggest we move Rio de Janeiro to River of January? After all, the name isn't English. Brazil should be ashamed for imposing Portuguese on us poor English speakers. AniMate 01:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, just go to List of country name etymologies and start move discussions on several of those countries as they are easily translated into English. I suggest we start with Costa Rica. It's right above Cote d'Ivoire in the list and really should be at Rich Coast. AniMate 02:10, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

While we're at it, let's move Trois-Rivières to its historical English name of "Three Rivers". You can't type that one on an English keyboard either. Orange Tuesday (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

lets sort this article out first shall we? Then perhaps i will look into those ones. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Umm i do not understand your point. You say the fact it is an historic region makes this more complicated because the "terms are not interchangable". So why does Ivory Coast redirect to this page? This point about its history makes 0 difference to the situation at hand. Oh and your arrogance when dismissing our concerns about this matter, considering a majority of people SUPPORTED a move and all the evidence that has been presented is incredible. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

And a few other sources to continue my list from above. The Press Association , Setanta Sport Ireland , Skysports , Voice of America , The Associated Press , Aljazeera , CNN , Press TV (Iranian state owned ) , American Broadcasting Company , CBS , NewsWeek , New York Post , Wall Street Journal , USA Today , The Independent , Daily Record , Scotsman , HeraldScotland , Irish Times , MSNBC , The Daily Express .

The above are all recent sources, almost all of them about the ivory coast in the world cup. Ill look for a new batch in a day or two. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please provide me with the source showing that this country opposes use of the term Ivory Coast? There is no source from what i can see in the article, source number 5 simply says "its government officially discourages this usage, preferring the French name Côte d'Ivoire to be used in all languages", but there is no link" BritishWatcher (talk) 23:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh and if this country dictates that every language in the world use its french name, why does the German, Spanish and Portuguese wikipedias use their own wording? Why is it only the English language wikipedia that seems to be dictated to? BritishWatcher (talk) 23:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps "Côte d'Ivoire" hasn't become as commonly used in those languages as it has in English? I don't know. It's not relevant in any case. This is the English Misplaced Pages and we are concerned with English usage.

And honestly, how can you expect people to take your argument seriously when you keep breaking into hysterics about Côte d'Ivoire's nefarious plot to destroy the English language? If you can't deal with this question objectively then you should probably consider taking a break from this discussion for a while. Orange Tuesday (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

If it has not become more commonly used in those languages then it sounds even more like an attack on the English language. I say such things about this issue because i believe it to be the case. If i was just here ranting then people should not take me seriously, but most of my comments have not been just rants. I have provided a source showing ivory coast (the vast majority of them about the recent world cup) from almost every single major western news organisation. Every single major British paper, American papers, American news channels, British news channels, Sports channels, Canada and Australian channels, even Russia today, France 24, Al Jazeera so this is not just about Britain or America. Ivory Coast is the common English name for this state. Despite the fact the team was called its French name, all those reliable sources decided to say Ivory Coast.

Taking a break from this matter is sadly no longer an option. It is frustrating when you win a vote with a majority yet the article stays in the same place, and then to have people dismiss it as just WP:IDONTLIKEIT is insulting. Sadly this matter is going to take up a lot of my time. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh and could we also please advertise this RFC in a few other places? WP:GEOGRAPHY , WP:Countries and WP:History perhaps. . BritishWatcher (talk) 23:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Côte d'Ivoire is the official English language name used by the United Nations. It is also used by the US government, as in the CIA Factbook. Most other English language resources also use this name, as you can see by scanning through its DMOZ categories. It appears UK sources prefer 'Ivory Coast'. For consistency, I think Misplaced Pages should continue to use Côte d'Ivoire. Flatterworld (talk) 07:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Should we move South Africa to Republic of South Africa? Should we move Macedonia to FYROM? WP:COMMONNAME is the battle that is going on here. Yes, Ivory Coast is used exclussivly in the UK, as the first time I ever heard Cote divoire was when I visited this page. And for the last time we can't move Rio or Troi rivier because they are the usage in ENGLISH, we have established this LONG ago. In this case Ivory Coast is the most common written form. It is also unpracticle since it is very difficult for me to get the ô on my keyboard. Yes, the redirect helps, but when creating a report on the country, that would be alot of copying and pasting. Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, in many places in the UK the common name may indeed accidentally be "Ivory Coast", but the only thing as a North American that I have ever known it as has been Cote d'Ivoire. Your argument about moving "South Africa" to "Republic of South Africa" is disingenuous, as pretty much every country has a full name like that - the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, the Dominion of Canada, etc. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

But that is his point, we do not put articles at their official or full names, we go with the common english name and all the evidence ive seen says Ivory Coast is still more common than Cote D'ivore. In the UK ivory coast is heavily used, but i have provided sources above showing its use by CBC, CBS, ABC (american+Australian 1s), Wall street journal, Washington Post, New York Times, New York post, Fox News, France 24, Al Jazeera, Russia Today, Hell even Iranian state controlled Press Today has used Ivory Coast. I can check for more sources i guess. Whilst i am doing that could someone please find me the sources saying this country discourages its Ivory Coast name from being used? Thanks BritishWatcher (talk) 09:43, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so you're not convinced by Rio de Janeiro, San Diego, etc. How about this: the article on former NHL goaltender Dominik Hašek - none of us "english-speakers" have ever spelled it with the accent on the "s". Manchester United centre fullback Nemanja Vidić has an non-English accent on the "c", and we allow it as the article title, just like team-mate Javier Hernández has not one, but two accents on his full, official article title. Oh no! The captain of the Gunners article is titled Cesc Fàbregas, and they have a goaltender with the article named Łukasz Fabiański! The shame! It's an affront to English! (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we could focus on the matter at hand? I was hoping for a source about this country's continued opposition to Ivory Coast.

I have produced a little table below. This compares the search results of the English / French names for 15 broadcasters. This is not a complete list, I will be producing a more extensive list f newspapers and press sources later on, along with more TV broadcasters.

Just one note i want to point people to, the France24 English site says 2 results found, i have checked those 2 links and they both only say the French name in the comments section rather than the article by the company itself. So basically that figure in reality is zero. Oh and i included the final column because i wanted to show this is not just a United Kingdom thing, English language broadcasters from throughout the world (including France) use the English name Ivory Coast more. If people want me to put sources for the above table in a list somewhere i will but its just a basic advanced Google search of the broadcasters website for each term (both using the ""s). Anyway, a much larger table will follow later mostly focusing on newspapers. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:25, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Proving that media sources are just as dumb is not going to change the legal name of the country, or it's expected and its valid use in the English language. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and this happens to be one of those topics where even WP:CONSENSUS will not help - "winning a vote" means nothing. Why not spend useful time improving the article as it is, or perhaps writing an article about the region formerly known as the the Ivory Coast in English, as opposed to wasting time trying to right some personally percieved affront. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Just when i think your comments cant shock me anymore, they do.

Proving that media sources are just as dumb - Very helpful, these happen to be some of the most respected reliable news sources the English wikipedia uses and depend on. I will be adding a second table below of respected news organisations you can insult too.

is not going to change the legal name of the country - Nobody is trying to. Côte d'Ivoire is the official name of this country, i fully accept that. It does not make it the common name for the state and most country articles are not at their official title (almost none are)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy - Yes i saw for myself wikipedia was not a democracy when a majority voted for change but were overruled.

and this happens to be one of those topics where even WP:CONSENSUS will not help - Excuse me? If there was clear consensus it would be invalid? Why is that?

Why not spend useful time improving the article as it is - I will spend my time how i like, i happen to think this article being at an incorrect location and the English language wikipedia using a French name throughout wikipedia is a serious problem which needs to be addressed.

or perhaps writing an article about the region formerly known as the the Ivory Coast in English - Ivory Coast has redirected to this page for years, the idea all of a sudden we need a second article which would probably violate WP:Content forking is strange.

as opposed to wasting time trying to right some personally percieved affront Its not a personally perceived affront. I think wikipedia is incorrectly using a french name when it should be using its common English name. If the sources did not back me up and a majority had not voted for a change, i would not be having this debate with you now.

Oh and i am still waiting for some sources saying this country still discourages the use of Ivory Coast. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:58, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

This has now reached WP:LAME standards. See especially the section on Voßstrasse, and some previously mentioned European city. I have no horse in this race, other than an open mind and wisdom. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is getting lame but I asure you the Vostrasse debate is much different and less significant than this one. Especially when the recent world cup used the name under which the article isn't placed at. Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I am very glad you have an open mind and wisdom, hopefully if we provide you with enough proof that Ivory Coast is the more common name than Cote d'Ivore you will change your mind and support our position. What are your views on the first batch of newspapers below? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

First batch of 15 major newspapers, these are American/British. Next batch will be more of an assortment from different nations.

Oh i am still waiting for that source saying this country still discourages the use of Ivory Coast, thanks. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:35, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

A few papers from Canada, no clue how popular they are, i am just working my way through a big list i found.

It is going to be a very long night i think. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Newspaper style guides aren't always based on common usage. The NY Times used "Rumania" until like 1990. Orange Tuesday (talk) 15:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Newspapers may not use something because its the common name, lots of newspapers using it makes it the common English name for the state. I am looking at the tables above and i honestly am shocked at how overwhelming the case for this article to be moved is. It is stunning this has been at its French name for so many years. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Lots of newspapers using "Ivory Coast" makes it the more common English name in the context of newspapers. And Britannica and Columbia having their pages at "Côte d'Ivoire" makes that name the more common English name in the context of encylcopedias. And the CIA, and the UN, and State.gov, and other government/diplomatic sources using "Côte d'Ivoire" makes that name the more common English name in the context of government/diplomatic sources. And English language books published in the last year using "Côte d'Ivoire" more often than "Ivory Coast" makes Côte d'Ivoire the more common English name in the context of English language books published in the last year. And Google Maps, Bing Maps, National Geographic, and Mapquest using "Côte d'Ivoire" makes that name the more common English language name in the context of online maps.

Common usage is influenced by all of these areas and more, including ones that we can't possibly measure with a Google search (like how the term is used in day-to-day conversation, or on the radio, or on printed world maps and atlases). It's not as easy as putting a bunch of numbers in a table and seeing how big the ones on the left are. If things were that simple, we'd never have these disputes in the first place. Orange Tuesday (talk) 16:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Continuing with that thought, how do we decide how to weigh these different areas? Do we decide that newspapers are more reflective of common usage than reference materials? If so, why? What's our evidence for that? Circulation numbers? Yes, plenty of people still read newspapers, but how many of them read articles about Côte d'Ivoire, compared to the number that only read the local news or the sports section? How do we quantify the former group, and do they really outnumber the people who are learning of Côte d'Ivoire through Britannica or the Factbook? (Not to mention all the people who have learned about the country through Misplaced Pages during the nine years that this article has been at its current name). Do we give more weight to publications that focus on foreign affairs? If so, how do we interpret the Economist favouring "Côte d'Ivoire"? And how do we weigh that against the English version of Le Monde Diplo using "Ivory Coast"?

When a name is clearly the most common English name, these kinds of questions are trivial, since all the sources generally agree. But when there's real split usage, like we have with Côte d'Ivoire and Ivory Coast, they suddenly become really difficult to grapple with. It's easy enough for conversations like this to devolve into throwing numbers at each other, but unless we can put those numbers in context they really aren't going to tell us anything. Orange Tuesday (talk) 16:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

"Do we decide that newspapers are more reflective of common usage than reference materials? If so, why?" Partly yes, nobody is claiming that Ivory Coast is the country's official name there for we accept international organisations be it FIFA or the UN use the French name. How do we judge common use today? The media, not just newspapers but of course there are other factors to take into account. The media use shown above overwhelmingly prove beyond any doubt what so ever that Ivory Coast is the common name for western English language media. If we can all accept this point then i will start looking at more detail to other factors like book uses. I see some links some way up during the RM debate where it was shown Cote d'Ivoire had more than Ivory Coast, but as someone pointed out at the time.. the list included French books, we are talking about English only books so a more closer look at that will be needed.

But at the end of the day, i do happen to think the overwhelming media usage tells us the commonname. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The book searches in the RM were restricted to English language books only but the specifics of that particular google test aren't the issue here. My problem is that you've decided that "the media" (by which you specifically mean those western news media outlets whose archives you can search through with a Google search) should be considered the main indicator of common usage. How did you come to this criteria? Why that particular version of "the media"? Hell, why any version of "the media"? Why does "the media" outweigh Britannica or the Factbook in this case? Orange Tuesday (talk) 16:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Heh, because he knows I work for "the Canadian media", but I've never written "Ivory Coast" in any article in my life. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The media seems a far more reasonable way of tracking common usage than a static article. We do not know why Britannica decided to put its article at a certain location, maybe it just wanted to use the official name as a default. Wikipedias policies are rather different, we are meant to go with the Commonname. I am showing English speaking media sources from around the world which overwhelmingly use Ivory Coast and not Cote d'Ivoire. The teams official name at the world cup was Cote d'Ivoire yet still the English speaking media chose to use Ivory Coast more. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:55, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

But the news media is only ONE dimension of common usage. WP:COMMONNAME tells us to look at "major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals" to determine the common name.

In fact, let's look at each of those items one by one.

• Major international organizations: Tend to use Côte d'Ivoire.
• Major English-language media outlets: Tend to use Ivory Coast.
• Quality Encyclopedias: Britannica and Columbia at least use Côte d'Ivoire.
• Geographic Name Servers: Getty Thesaurus of Geographic names and the NGA GEOnet Names Server both use Côte d'Ivoire (with the latter accepting "Ivory Coast" as a variant)
• Major scientific bodies and scientific journals: I'm not really familiar enough with Scientific literature to assess this but off-hand I'd call a split. Google Scholar can favour one or the other depending on how you tweak the parameters.

In any case, your focus on "the media" as you've defined it is way too narrow. Orange Tuesday (talk) 17:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The news media is just one dimension, however considering the overwhelming evidence that Ivory Coast is used by far the most it is a big factor in determining what the common name for this country is in English. We can go over other matters over the next few days of course, there is no rush. Today i am focusing on getting enough tables done to prove beyond any doubt at all that Ivory Coast is the common name used by the English speaking Media throughout the world. Something i do not think was clearly accepted in the previous RM. I will probably focus on books and maps next, of course such things must look over a long period of time not just recent use. This article is not just about the country since it demanded never to be called Ivory Coast. Speaking of that demand, i am still waiting for some sources to prove this country still discourages its use and the original declaration. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It is very important to restrict ourselves to recent use as much as we possibly can. We're trying to assess what the common usage is in English as it is spoken and used right now in the year 2010, not what it was in the past or may become in the future. Orange Tuesday (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

May I add this: listing the Ottawa Sun, Toronto Sun, Vancouver Sun and London Free Press separately is also disinginuous as those are effectively the same newspaper ... likewise with your others...you might also want to know that some of those Canadian newspapers now use American spelling, instead of Canadian/English intentionally. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea about the ownership or status of these newspapers, i simply searched different websites that were linked on a page of Canadian newspapers. The Ottawa Sun and Toronto Sun may have the same owner, but they had separate websites i searched and got different results for. As for what type of English they use, that makes no difference to me. It is very clear from the evidence above that Canadian, British and American newspapers all use the same term more often and that is Ivory Coast. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to credit both Bwatcher and Orange because Brit gave a very long and extensive list of media, while Orange has correctly pointed out that yes Media is important, but so are the other important factors of WP:COMMONNAME. The situation is getting similar to the Netherlands and Holland, however it is a practicle version, since the article can exist peacefully under both names (well that's obviously not true now ^), but it seems that politics and all the 'official' and formal stuff seems to use Cote while unofficial and therefore the majority of sources use Ivory Coast. Btw Bwilkins, surely the English used doesn't matter? If Canadians use American English and Americans are the majority of English speakers then you have just shot yourself in the foot? Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

What does "majority of sources" really mean in this case though? How are you defining the number of sources you're considering when you're talking about this "majority"? Does each newspaper count as one source? Each article? How does one newspaper article compare to one entry in the CIA World Factbook? Seems to me like trying to compare the number of sources over such a broad number of contexts would involve a lot of apple/orange comparisons. Orange Tuesday (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Well because informal speaking is more common than formal speaking. For example people don't use United Kingdom of Great Britain and North Ireland, just Unitied Kingdom or even UK. But because wikipedia is one of those formal/informal places, there comes a problem. And I understand your point that a large number of newspapers are outweighed by a few official and important organisations, but we don't follow their rules? Britannica and the CIA is an excellent example of Cote d'Ivoire usage as they use Cote d'Ivoire but also use North Korea and Macedonia (instead of DPR Korea and FYROM respectivley). I am personally still for Ivory Coast due to media rather than official usage and because here in the UK Cote d'Ivoire is not used. Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I have a few problems with that. First, Britishwatcher's tables don't prove that "Ivory Coast" is more common in "informal speaking" generally, they show that it's more common in news media coverage specifically. Second, there is a problem of definitions. How do we define "formal" vs. "informal"? I mean, I wouldn't call journalism informal exactly, it's just has a different set of formalities than, say, a State department page would have. Third, WP:COMMONNAME doesn't deal with formal vs. informal or even official vs. unofficial. It deals with common vs. uncommon, and the way we determine commonness is by looking at a wide spectrum of sources, including those that are more "formal". We don't have to follow anyone's rules, but the fact that CIA and Britannica use these names is important for us to consider. As significant reference sources, they contribute to common use just as much as the news media, and when they use a different term it suggests to me that the usage is split. Orange Tuesday (talk) 21:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

One other batch

There are many other news sources that could be listed, but one term is clearly used far more often than the other which makes Ivory Coast the more Common Name used by the English Language media for this Country. Anyway, we still need the sources describing that this country still discourages the use of Ivory coast and sources of when it originally started demanding Ivory Coast not be used. Also someone still probably need to post a link to this RFC on some other project pages. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:28, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The sources you keep asking for aren't particularly relevant to the discussion. First off, there's no real question that it actually happened. The state participated in the UN under the name Ivory Coast in 1960 and now participates under the name Côte d'Ivoire , meaning that at some point the government must have requested to use "Côte d'Ivoire" in English. I don't think there was ever anything on the scale of some kind of formal declaration like you're imagining, but I did find two references to this request on a quick google archive search. . But this is all beside the point anyway. We are assessing English usage as a whole here, and the government's preference (which is clearly for Côte d'Ivoire) doesn't really affect the argument for keeping the page at its current location one way or another. Orange Tuesday (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I am glad we agree we should base this on English language usage, and not what the government of this country wants now or in the past. Despite changing their name decades ago it is clear many English speaking media sources continue to overwhelmingly use Ivory Coast, even when talking about their sports team which uses the official name. If book usage over the past 5 or 10 years is more equally split should we not accept the usage by the media? These are most of the major news media sources the English language wikipedia uses. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

No, we should examine all facets of usage (reference materials, government sources, geographical name servers, international organizations, scholarly articles), like WP:COMMONNAME tells us to do. Ivory Coast's dominance in the news does not clearly translate over to those other areas of usage. Orange Tuesday (talk) 21:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Ivory Coasts dominance in the news trumps the other factors and makes it the Commonname used / known by more people in the English speaking world. More are likely to know a term from the media that uses it day in day out for all sorts of topics over the name used by pen pushers at the United Nations or some science convention. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

You'll have to point me to the policy which dictates that news media trumps every other kind of English usage. I don't think that's really how we do things. Orange Tuesday (talk) 21:39, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It is a reasonable way of determining common usage, Misplaced Pages often fails when it comes to commonsense, but it all comes down to someones point of view at the end of the day. You choose to give more weight to official usage / and recent scholars. I choose to give more weight to the vast majority of the English language media which is viewed/used by far more people in the English speaking world than what gets put on an official document at the United Nations. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:48, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Sigh, i am following another RM somewhere else on wikipedia at the moment, currently there is a majority of one in favour of the move. Im betting by the time it does get closed it will probably still have a smaller majority in favour of the move than here, yet i bet it will be moved. I will not be impressed. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Sigh, that must be just terrible for you. Anyway, looking at Google Scholar without any restrictions on time frame you get 84,400 for Cote d'Ivoire and 97,100 for Ivory Coast. However, by limiting a search one can see that starting in 2005, the majority of papers are using Cote d'Ivoire (15800) rather than Ivory Coast (15000). In 2006, Ivory Coast has 14,100 and Cote d'Ivoire has 15,700. In works published since 2007, Ivory coast drops to 11,800 while Cote d'Ivoire is up to 15,800 hits. Since 2008, Ivory Coast is down to 8,580 and Cote d'Ivoire is at 15,300. In 2009, Ivory Coast has just 5,120 hits in Google scholar as opposed to 9680 for Cote d'Ivoire, which is almost double. In 2010, 1360 works use Ivory Coast and 2840 use Cote d'Ivoire. That's more than double. This suggests that Cote d'Ivoire has become the preferred name among scholars. For the record, this is a very rough, basic search of Google Scholar. I haven't looked any deeper than the just the numbers. AniMate 21:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

You can add "&lr=lang_en" to the end of those urls to restrict your results by language. This changes the margins to:

• n/r: 54500 (CdI) vs. 91400 (IC)
• 2005: 15800 (CdI) vs. 14700 (IC)
• 2006: 15600 (CdI) vs. 13500 (IC)
• 2007: 15400 (CdI) vs. 11100 (IC)
• 2008: 12000 (CdI) vs. 8090 (IC)
• 2009: 7180 (CdI) vs. 4840 (IC)
• 2010: 2240 (CdI) vs. 1310 (IC)

Generally smaller margins, but as much smaller as I would have thought. Orange Tuesday (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It will be terrible yes, because it will highlight the RM should have resulted in a move as there was a majority.

Wise Scholars have less of an influence / reflection of the "common name" of a state compared to day to day use of the country name by the English language media covering everything from sport, politics and war. Do you think the general population of the United States or the United Kingdom will recognise the term some scholars use or will they know a term used by the media? BritishWatcher (talk) 21:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

You continue to fail to realize that nothing on Misplaced Pages is about majority, it's about strength of argument. Ever visited WP:AFD? Dozens of article with more "yes" than "no" !votes are kept. You keep missing that point, and making the same argument over and over again, only with tables. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It's funny Animate because the Côte d'Ivoire results are actually split between Côte d'Ivoire and Cote d'Ivoire! Should we move the article to Cote d'Ivoire then? Is that the point you are getting across? Bezuidenhout (talk) 21:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The only point I'm trying to get across is that Ivory Coast is not the preferred name in scholarly works. AniMate 21:35, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Only when you restrict it to the previous few years. Ofcourse that would not have applied at all when this article was originally stuck at this title many years ago. So if that is justification for this title now, it wasnt then. And yet we only have this title today because the old name wins by default in the "no consensus" game. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I would support such a move. At least id be able to type the damn country name on my keyboard then. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

That's really more of a technical limitation than anything else. There are a lot of websites which spell "São Tomé and Príncipe" as "Sao Tome and Principe", but I think we generally accept that both are "the same name" for the country. Orange Tuesday (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

"technical limitation" lmao isnt it ashame we do not take technical limitations into account when deciding article names? Doesnt matter that the vast majority of people cant even type the damn name, it should still be the primary spot. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

This is an issue common to every article with an accent in its title (there are thousands upon thousands of those) and it's one of the reasons we employ redirects. I don't see why this is suddenly a huge problem? Orange Tuesday (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The indignity of being redirected here because of accents must indeed be a hardship. AniMate 21:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

In a case where there is a clear valid alternative, which many view as the primary title it is a problem. Technical limitations should be taken into account. Clearly not a matter for here to decide, but its just one of those many flaws of the wikipedia project. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I have nightmares about this article name, typing in the "cote d'ivoire" is not something id do when looking for this article, i will always continue to use Ivory Coast, the true English language name for this country. When i type cote d'ivoire on this talk page it feels like im typing a word backwards or something, its disturbing. Its like when you look at a Japanese website where everything is the wrong way round. We should not have to suffer in such a way! BritishWatcher (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

If this is giving you nightmares or you find typing certain words disturbing, that's kind of a personal problem. Many people, myself included, think this isn't and shouldn't be a big deal. Fortunately for you, you can type in Ivory Coast, Cote d'Ivoire, or Côte d'Ivoire and you end up in the exact same place. Try not to be scared of the weird foreigners and their unwillingness to conform their language to exactly what you think it should be. AniMate 22:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Trouble is the opposite is the case. This is them telling us to conform our language to something they think it should be. Despite our keyboards not even being able to type out the name properly. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

You have trouble holding down your ALT key, typing 0244 using your number pad, then letting go of the ALT key? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I should not need a special code to be able to type the name of this country. If this article was at its English language name there would not be a problem. Im not pressing Alt 244 everytime want to type an O. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Lmao, oh actually i do! I am on a laptop which has no number pad. Alt and the normal 0244 does nothing. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

You can hold down the Fn key to activate the secondary number pad if you have one. Or just type "Cote d'Ivoire". Everyone will know what you mean and you'll wind up in the same place anyway. And again, why is this relevant to the move discussion? Orange Tuesday (talk) 22:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you don't have to do anything. Typing in Ivory Coast or Cote d'Ivoire all bring you to the same place. AniMate 22:48, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Doesnt work for me, only symbol i end up with is the euro. Its all part of the problem with the current article title and its use throughout wikipedia, its not fit for purpose for many of us. Im waiting for more people to respond to the RFC, ty by the way for posting on those Wikiprojects earlier. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes i type in Ivory Coast, its just silly that i cant even type this article title on my computer with out having to enter a special code or copy and paste. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

There are many here who are turning this Request for Comment, into the basis for a "he said, she said" argument, and the repetitious statement of the same stale points. To me it would seem that the same people ploughing the same ground with the above morass is going to drive off insight from others, and have this commentary proceed nowhere. billinghurst sDrewth 05:59, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Well ill take a few days break from posting on this page to wait and see if others respond to the RFC, but what exactly do we do if this RFC produces nothing? Whats the next step, or do we need to consider another RM considering it would only take a few more votes either way to get an outcome. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Again, you miss the point: this is not a vote. Media usage does not determine article name: other encyclopedia usage is more likely to hold sway, because this too is an encyclopedia. The article will never move - the best part about banging your head against a wall is how good it feels when you stop doing so. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:05, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

If the vote showed very clear community support (larger than the majority we had in that past RM) i fail to see why the article would not be moved. Misplaced Pages may not be a democracy, but it would be a damn disgrace and joke if the clear wish of most people was overruled by a single admin even though the case for moving is clear and justified. Your refusal to accept that consensus may change is shocking. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, consensus is never going to overrule every other argument that everyone else has put against your move again and again and again. This isn't frickin rocket science. It doesn't matter if you go out and find 300 xenophobes to !vote in your favour, there is only one possible result in this situation, no matter how many times you spin it. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd accept a blanket characterisation of those who favour using the English name as xenophobes (although xenophobes should certainly feel welcome to participate). Part of my support for the move (in addition to the WP:UE and WP:UCN guidelines) derives from personal and professional interaction with numerous Ivorians who overwhelmingly refer to their country (in English) as "Ivory Coast", hardly a xenophobic motivation. (I realise this is original research but it is a legitimate motive if not a rationale for using the common English name.) — AjaxSmack 03:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey whoa, you just added something new to what I was suggesting that went well beyond my meaning. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:06, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME may be a worthy attempt to defuse argument, but it is a tool that favours innate conservatism and, in some circumstances, cultural imperialism. We have taken on board changes such in the English language such as Bombay-->Mumbai etc. without significant loss of life and in my view we have no business telling people what their country is called - whether or not a majority of UK/US news sources use it. The problem here is that it is alleged that the government's preference (Côte d'Ivoire) is not that of the people's. However, no evidence for the latter has been supplied. I'd favour Côte d'Ivoire unless and until it is. Ben MacDui 20:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I can type Mumbai on my keyboard! Besides this is about the preference of the English speaking world, the wishes of the people of this country and its government is secondary. Nothing reflects the English speaking world better than its media, and in almost every single case, western media says Ivory Coast more often than this French name. Glad we have something to disagree on after that rather uncomfortable moment the other day though ;) BritishWatcher (talk) 20:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed yes - a relaxing moment and somehow I am reminded of something - yes that's it. Ben MacDui 18:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

File:Bisto gravy.jpg

lol, this is what came to my mind. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Surprising outcome of the process. There is clearly a commonly used English name for the country, and a Misplaced Pages policy that indicates that in such a circumstance the English name should be preferred. The first time I came to this article I found it surprising that the name of the country I had always known as 'Ivory Coast' had been discarded here in favour of the official French 'Côte d'Ivoire'. Ce n'est pas question de la xénophobie, mais des normes qui s'appliquent aux titres des articles. I object to the debate being characterized as one between xenophobes and the 'enlightened' as this is a charge used to shut down discourse, by trying to personalize the attack. There are good reasons in favour of both names; however, in my view the naming conventions of Misplaced Pages indicate that for the moment Ivory Coast would be the preferred name. The fact that the name of the article in versions of Misplaced Pages in other languages reflects and respects those individual languages (from Panté Gadéng in Aceh to An Costa Eabhair in Irish to Côte d'Iviéthe in Norman to Elfenbesnkusten in Swedish) confirms that this is the normative approach. Corlyon (talk) 12:30, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Once again, as noted above, this is not a situation where I have called those who disagree "xenophobes". I stated that one could bring the current arguments and a few dozen xenophobes all to say "change it", it will not make one iota of difference in the long run. An official country name is not, and never should be up for RM debate. Again, (for the 3rd time), I did not say that anyone who wants to change the name is a xenophobe. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Probably better to have avoided the use of the loaded term to begin with. Could you direct me to the naming convention or policy that would prevent Misplaced Pages's use of a non-official country name? I have been guided by the following:

• The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works). This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. Often this will be the local version, as with Madrid. Sometimes the usual English version will differ somewhat from the local form (Aragon, Venice, Normandy; Franz Josef Strauss, Victor Emmanuel III, Christopher Columbus). Rarely, as with Germany or Mount Everest, it will be completely different.Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(use_English)
• Sometimes, English usage is divided. For example, US newspapers generally referred to the Olympics in Torino, following official handouts. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. Use what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead.Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(use_English)
• The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always.Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)
• When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. An example is Livorno, which is now known more widely under its native name than under the traditional English name "Leghorn".Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)
• Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article. In determining what this name is, we follow the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article.Misplaced Pages:UCN#Common_names Corlyon (talk) 14:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

RFC Comment It sounds like there are good reasons on both sides of the debate, making it difficult to come to consensus. But this shouldn't matter because it's not an issue of any real consequence. Whatever the final verdict is, I'm sure there will be the appropriate redirects for the losing name, as well as a good description in the lede of the final article about the name issue. Also, whatever the final verdict is, reopening the debate in a couple years may be more productive, as it seems like what is considered the common name is changing fairly quickly.

I propose that the side that graciously lets the other side have it their way be declared as the better, more mature editors. The sooner this is resolved, the sooner all you bright people can move on to more useful ways of improving Misplaced Pages.

And since it hasn't been mentioned here yet, I would like to direct your attention to the sad story of the Misplaced Pages debate over whether the article for heavier-than-air flying contraptions should be called "Airplane" (American-spelling) or "Aeroplane" (remainder-of-the-Anglophone-world spelling). Because everyone was so stubborn, the article is now called "fixed-wing aircraft", which makes nobody happy. --RSLxii 18:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

PS. Lest my comment above be mistaken as a 'neutral' stance, I should say my vote is to keep it as "Côte d'Ivoire", from a pure practical standpoint. It seems like a big, needless effort to change the wording of all the dozens of articles associated with the country. But I will still declare the editors that first drop the issue to be the more mature out of the bunch. --RSLxii 23:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It has gone very quiet. A few days ago there was an article on the Misplaced Pages front page In The News section about the case involving toxic waste dumping in the Ivory Coast, 2006 Côte d'Ivoire toxic waste dump. I decided to take a look at the sources for that article and see what term those sources use. I can not say i am surprised about the result. Of 49 sources, about 10 mentioned neither term, about 6 were dead or unclear, 2 said both Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire (both cotes were quoting someone or a statement) and 1 said only Cote d'Ivoire.

That left a massive 30 sources out of 49 only using the term Ivory Coast. The English speaking media overwhelmingly uses Ivory Coast as mentioned previously. It is shocking that we take advantage of all these sources to have articles which use a completely different name.

Ivory Coast is the English WP:COMMONNAME for this country. A majority of people in the recent RM supported a move to Ivory Coast, yet this article remains in an incorrect french location. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I give you more credit than you apparently deserve. Why is so much of your work so good, but you have the fact that the real name of a country happens to be French stuck on your craw so badly? There is no valid reason for this article to be named anything but what it is - no matter how hard to you try to convince the free world. RFC's such as this can go on for 30 days. There's no linguistically possible way that it can you the way you're working on. Go work on some articles. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

lol, i take this matter very seriously. If the RM had clearly shown i was alone then i would not mind. But to have a majority and be stuck with this article title when a lot of the evidence suggests it belongs at Ivory Coast is very frustrating. I need to dedicate more time to this issue not less sadly. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Here from RFC and not really my area but one thing I do remember as part of general knowledge is the insistance that Côte d'Ivoire be called Côte d'Ivoire even in English which is why NGOs and such use Côte d'Ivoire even in English. So I would just leave it is as it is. MilborneOne (talk) 18:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Just passing through, but english speakers mispronounce the names of lot's of countries. Do you think that the chinese call their country china in chinese or that spain is pronounced spain or that mexico is pronounced mexico or that germany is pronounced germany. The title of the article should be Côte d'Ivoire since its redirected from ivory coast but in terms of being referrenced in other articles I would say it would be easier on everyone who can't type cote d ivoire to use ivory coast. Does it have to always be referred to one or the other? Overall it shouldn't matter that much. I haven't really read too much into the discussion. Good luck.Preciseaccuracy (talk) 04:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well that RFC appears to have been a complete and utter waste of time as i expected it would be, yet again Request for Comment has been proven to be an awful way of trying resolving something, it gets a few differing comments and halts the debate for about a month and lets it fade out. So i guess we are stuck with this awful title that most of us can not even type whilst wikipedia continues to use sources which mostly describe the place as ivory coast. How wonderful. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:06, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

You miss the fricking point: this is not an article that can have it's title changed. For crikey's sake, you're intelligent - get this one through your skull a little better. You can RFC or RM it until monkeys fly out of your butt, it cannot change. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:37, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

You might want to read up on WP:CIVIL. Actually, as WP:COMMONNAME states the rules, it is community consensus which chooses what to call an article when no single common name is present.("When there is no obvious common name for the topic, as used by a significant majority of reliable English language sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best."). So I would call it a bit of an overstatement to say that this article never can change name, as you know, wp:consensus can change.TheFreeloader (talk) 01:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

It has been a few hours without a comment on this. Perhaps it is time for another RFC. Perhaps this one can be an RFC to agree on how often to have RFCs and other discussions on this renaming. This is the 7th discussion on this talk page in the last year about moving it. There are presently 8 discussions in total on this talk page and by my reckoning on division of discussions another 9 readily found in the archives about moving the page however to get the true count one need read the diffs of archive 1 as things from 2002 through late 2005 are only found in the history of that page. Something about enough is enough and just let it be comes to mind.

I am simply very much in favour of Côte d'Ivoire and would for certainty start an RFC should this ever end up at the "awful title" Ivory Coast. Point being the eternal fight would come from the other side should it ever be moved. Not to mention all of the reverted moves that are in the history, a few of which are no longer listing in the move logs but are listed in talk archive 1. This has been going on for 8 years now that i can find record of. For how long do you push for change of consensus? One person 3RR'd moving it to Ivory Coast a little over 4 years ago now. I can't find a time when the article has lasted at Ivory Coast for any significant time. Then there is the matter that it would appear to have been created at Cote DIvoire, a variation purely for then-existent technical restrictions. Later a competing article was created at Ivory Coast and once they were merged this eternal fight began. delirious & lost ☯ 08:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course it should be "Ivory Coast." Complainers can find all sorts of caveats on the Internet to pretend that "Cote D'Ivoire" is "common" in English. Sure. Try the name on the next person you meet. The average person will say "huh"? The average American in monoglot. Brits may be better at French. This is clearly French.

We use "Florence" not "Firenze", "Austria" not (uh) "Oesterreich" (sp?) etc. If I say "Ivory Coast" there is a 65% chance that an American will recognize it and place it in Africa on the correct side. Maybe 15% chance with the French spelling. Let's stick to English spellings, English usage, and the English keyboard! Student7 (talk) 12:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Pour le plaisir, je dis non. Vive Côte d'Ivoire!
This is not written for the American who knows no better. Globally both are used. The country uses the French when referring to itself in English. So do many other new agencies, governments, and international organisations. If examples of all caveats can be found then i do believe that means one is not pretending that something is but rather demonstrating it to be so. delirious & lost ☯ 17:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You know, like FIFA. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Although it should be said that FIFA isn't the best indicator to go by on this issue, as they do have a tendency to use official names over common names. They also call North Korea Korea DPR. The same goes for many other international organizations as all will aim for being as diplomatic as possible and are not tied by policies about using common names like Misplaced Pages is. I still think the evidence is clearly for that in daily usage "Ivory Coast" is much more commonly used than "Cote d'Ivoire", as English-speaking news outlets have used "Ivory Coast" more than twice as much as "Cote d'Ivoire" the last ten years. I do not think Misplaced Pages's aims for the language which it uses is much different from the aims of media, in that both prioritize of comprehensibility and recognizability over being diplomatic. I am however not sure that it is such a good idea to revive this issue, as there seems here to be a minority dead set against letting a consensus form on this issue. Trying to revive this issue will probably just get this closer to WP:LAME than to a consensus.TheFreeloader (talk) 20:00, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

<cr> If it's a minority then why hasn't the majority been able to put this article at it's rightful place at Ivory Coast? I'm not sure I've seen it any other way on the tv news or newspapers. Vote to see if you get 2/3 or call in a mediation cabal and get them to choose. What can you lose? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Check the archive here. The last move request allowed to proceed saw a clear majority (11/18) of participating users favouring the English name but the closing admin overruled the result of the discussion. — AjaxSmack 01:36, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You of course have read WP:NOTVOTE, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:NOTDEMOCRACY .... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• I think that this article should be moved to 'Ivory Coast'. Is it really that contentious? Here in the United Kingdom the country is almost always referred to as 'the Ivory Coast'. George Richard Leeming (talk) 16:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course, it's clearly contentious - it has declared that its English name is also Cote d'Ivoire ... how can moving it to a name that actually denotes a region not therefore be contentious? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

• After reading a newspaper article about Ivory Coast, I opened its Misplaced Pages page and was surprised -- even mildly astonished -- to find it under its French name. As a non-native English speaker who has lived for many years in the English-speaking world (presently in the U.S., thus American spelling), I can appreciate linguistic and cultural differences, but the inescapable fact is that this article appears in the English Misplaced Pages, where France can be found under "France", whereas in the French Misplaced Pages, United States is found under États-Unis, England under Angleterre, Scotland under Écosse, Wales under Pays de Galles and so it goes -- Australie/Nouvelle-Zélande/Afrique du Sud, etc (Canada remains "Canada").
  With some historical exceptions (Bretagne/Brittany, Normandie/Normandy, Côte d'Ivoire/Ivory Coast), most French-language geographical designation remain in the English-speaking world under their original forms. The same application, although not specifically concerning geography of France, is generally accepted in all languages. As of this writing, Misplaced Pages has articles in 278 languages, with a few duplications (Simple English Misplaced Pages...), thus giving us an instant opportunity to compare any entry across the world's languages. Since Ivory Coast "has declared that its English name is also Cote d'Ivoire" , perhaps it has also declared that its name is Cote d'Ivoire in every one of the world's languages or, possibly, its only concern is with the English language and it could care less that its appellation in the German Misplaced Pages is Elfenbeinküste, Swedish Misplaced Pages: Elfenbenskusten, Italian Misplaced Pages: Costa d'Avorio, Spanish Misplaced Pages: Costa de Marfil, Portuguese Misplaced Pages: Costa do Marfim, Polish Misplaced Pages: Wybrzeże Kości Słoniowej, Dutch Misplaced Pages: Ivoorkust, Estonian Misplaced Pages: Elevandiluurannik...well, we must have gotten the point a long time ago, but everyone is welcome to add more examples. And what is that point, then? Perhaps there is still no agreement, as long as the French Misplaced Pages calls the country Côte d'Ivoire. Every language has its own generally accepted name for geographical designations and only the English Misplaced Pages has insisted on retaining this minority-supported French designation.
  There are some arguments on talk pages of cities -- a small minority insists that the historic Polish capital of Kraków should be entered under its formerly-used English appellation, Cracow (still listed as Cracovie in French) or that the Georgian capital of Tbilisi should be entered under its former name, Tiflis. Major world cities which have been historically known under their English-language names (Florence/Firenze, Warsaw/Warszawa, Prague/Praha) continue to be known under those traditional English names. Country names, however, are a specialized subject. Some remain the same in all languages (Pakistan), some change slightly (Italy/Italia) and others change completely -- stamp collectors in particular will remember that the country known on its stamps only as Shqipëria, Shqipërisë or Shqypnísë is, in fact, Albania, although no other language uses the Albanian name.
  There is obviously much more, but everyone is most likely weary with this subject. My print edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica has the article under "Ivory Coast" and in the above discussion, User:BritishWatcher has provided overwhelming evidence that Ivory Coast is by far, the accepted usage in the print media and... well, let me close with this -- for those who insist on keeping Côte d'Ivoire/Cote d'Ivoire, Cameroon has indicated that its English-language designation should be Cameroun. No one has bothered to stir up any hornet's nest on that country's talk page, and no one may wish to do so, but the opportunity is there.—Roman Spinner (talk) 21:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

This should be called Ivory Coast on en.wikipedia.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.110.140.233 (talk) 03:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Why Ivory

I ran through the article hoping to find out why it is has ivory in its name. Is it there somewhere? If not, it should be. Myrvin (talk) 20:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It's in the related article about the history of the area. Elephant ivory boom in the 17th/18th century led to profitable trading that collapsed part way through the 1700's. Keegan (talk) 06:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Aha - thanks K. Shouldn't it be in this article under Name? Myrvin (talk) 06:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Religion demographics

I would just like to point out that the text says around 38% are islamic while 32% are christian, or something like that, while the diagram directly below shows the opposite. Which is it, I wonder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.90.21 (talk) 01:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

English name?

Shouldn't we use the English name since this is the American Misplaced Pages? All other countries have their English name on this Misplaced Pages, so why is this the only exception?--24.207.198.83 (talk) 01:56, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

You need to read the lengthy earlier discussions. The answer to question one however is yes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Not speaking to the choice of title either way, but note that this is not the "American" Misplaced Pages, it is the English Misplaced Pages. There is no "American" Misplaced Pages, by the way; this project uses the English language but does nt restrict itself to only one version of said language.) --Ckatz_spy 04:56, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Côte d'Ivoire --> Ivory Coast_Ivory_Coast-2011-06-19T08:17:00.000Z">

The request to rename this article to Ivory Coast has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast – This title doesn’t just ignore the WP:COMMONNAME principle, it is so different than the name that readers are likely to know this country as that they may well wonder if they are at the right article. Unless you know some French, it’s not obvious how you are supposed to pronounce it. Looking through the archive, I must say that this is an issue with a most contentious and irregular history. "Ivory Coast" is overwhelmingly the common name as found in Google Books. Our guidelines specify that the common name be used as the article title. "Ivory Coast" is also the usage of major media organizations. Kauffner (talk) 08:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC)_Ivory_Coast"> _Ivory_Coast">

Arguments:

1. To determine common name, we may use "a Google book search of books published since 1980,” per WP:COMMONNAME. So this ngram should leave no doubt that “Ivory Coast” is in fact the common English-language name of this country. (Since there is a lot of discussion in the archive about British vs. American usage, I recommend trying out the feature that allows you to choose either a British or an American corpus.)
2. Isn’t “Côte d'Ivoire” the “new name" of the this country? Won’t “Ivory Coast" make us look old fashion in a few years? The guidelines suggest that Wiki should not try to get ahead of the curve in this manner, but such arguments get deployed anyway. Media usage today will be book and common usage in a few years time. As the major media organizations are currently using “Ivory Coast”, there is no reason to expect common usage to change anytime soon. See The New York Times (“Standoff Set Up With 2 Ivory Coast Presidents”, December 3, 2010), the AP (“UN: both sides committed abuses in Ivory Coast”, Jun 10, 2011), the BBC (“Ivory Coast country profile”), The Guardian (styleguide: Ivory Coast not "the Ivory Coast" or Côte d'Ivoire”), and CNN (“Gbagbo loyalists attack Ivory Coast broadcaster as violence drags on”, February 27, 2011). Burma has been attempting to change its English-language name to “Myanmar" since 1989, but without success.
3. As examples in the archive can attest, numerous readers who come to this page are surprised to discover that the name of this country is given “in French.” Certainly “Côte d'Ivoire” sees significant usage in English as well, but the point remains that the title is not supposed to come as a surprise to the reader.
4. The fact that this country participates in international organization as “Côte d'Ivoire" is rightly given significant weight. But there are certainly other cases where Wiki uses an article title that is not the same as that country’s diplomatic name: Burma (Myanmar), Vietnam (Viet Nam), East Timor (Timor-Leste), North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea), and South Korea (Republic of Korea). It is also quite common for a Wiki title be a shortened form of the diplomatic name, for example Brunei, United Kingdom or United States. See here for a full list of the diplomatic names.
5. Yup, here come the guidelines:

• “Name your pages in English....unless the native form is more commonly used in English”(per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English));
• “Use what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article" (per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English)); and
• “When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. (per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names))

Ivory Coast issued a proclamation on this subject this back in 1985, but you don’t see any significant use of “Côte d'Ivoire" in English until the late 1990s. Usage seems to be associated with President Laurent Gbagbo, who was recently ousted. Agence Ivoirienne de Presse, the official news agency, published its last English language report on March 30 as rebel forces closed in on the capital. So who knows what official English language usage might be at this point? Obviously time for another RM. Kauffner (talk) 08:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC)_Ivory_Coast-1"> _Ivory_Coast-1">

Just a note of correction, Google's ngram software is very finicky since it's based on scanned documents. Fiddling around with it a bit and I get a far more sensible graph which shows the expected behavior: after 1985, when the change was officially made, usage of Ivory Coast suddenly droped and Cote d'Ivoire increased, eventually overtaking Ivory Coast around 1993 as the most popular term. Today usage seems to be roughly equal, although Cote d'Ivoire is slightly more popular. TDL (talk) 07:10, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support per the comprehensive nomination. WP:COMMONNAME is policy and "Ivory Coast" is clearly this country's most common name in reliable English sources. Jenks24 (talk) 09:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Côte d'Ivoire is also commonly used and this is the official name of the country. Moreover Ivory Coast redirects here and is bolded in the first sentence so there's no possible confusion. Whether people can pronounce "Côte d'Ivoire" or not is irrelevant since the English name is also stated. Laurent (talk) 09:29, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
  • WP:COMMONNAME says we use the most common name, not just any common name, and WP:OFFICIALNAMES says we don't use official names. –CWenger (^ • @) 17:44, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
    • On Misplaced Pages, when both country names are relatively common, it's frequent to ignore WP:COMMONNAME and make a decision based on other criteria. See People's Republic of China instead of "China", Republic of China instead of "Taiwan", Republic of Ireland instead of "Ireland", and there are a lot more. In this case, since both names are commonly used (based on previous discussions, none is significantly more common than the other), it makes sense to choose the official one. Laurent (talk) 07:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
      • "Ireland", "China", and "Taiwan" are ambiguous, making further qualifiers necessary. "Ivory Coast" is not. Powers 12:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support Here in the UK, the BBC uses Ivory Coast and to me that is enough. I have never heard anyone ever use "Cote d'Ivoire", because it's a bit strange as it isn't common. Yes some of these news outlets may use Cote d'Ivoire, but in reality will they use it on the streets when talking to a friend? I stand by that I have NEVER heard someone refer to it as Cote d'Ivoire, but only as Ivory Coast. Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose What is this, the semi-annual waste of time? The arguments against last time stand (3 attempts in less than a month), and none of the arguments this time even fit. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason to keep trying to move this. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:08, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

There have been only three RMs for this article: November 2005, January 2007, and June 2010. The June 2010 RM looks like it was a hash, so it's about time for a proper vote on this issue. If you think it's a waste of time, no one is making you vote. Kauffner (talk) 11:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support: Clearly the WP:COMMONNAME in English. –CWenger (^ • @) 17:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Strong Support: I can't even recall the last time I saw the name cote divoire in print or used on tv. There are times when common English use of a name and the country's own internal name go through swings over a decade, but Ivory Coast is used almost exclusively. It's not even remotely close. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Comment the CIA World Fact Book calls it "Cote d'Ivoire". 65.94.47.63 (talk) 19:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment the CIA World Fact Book also uses Timor-Leste (not East Timor) Bezuidenhout (talk) 19:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support Ivory Coast is clearly the most recognizable name for the country to an English speaking audience. As the data here and above shows, major news organizations and books prefer this name, and I think it's exactly for for this reason, as they prioritize recognizability and comprehension by readers over diplomatic concerns. It is my opinion that Misplaced Pages should have the same priorities. The only reason why Côte d'Ivoire may be slightly favored in a regular Google search is that the hits are heavily slanted towards international organizations and government websites, who use the official name out of diplomatic concerns. Their language use does not reflect that of the general English speaking public.TheFreeloader (talk) 19:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Even the Library of Congress country study is titled with Ivory Coast so that readers will know what is meant; it uses Côte d'Ivoire, but its sources don't - except for Gbagbo's own book. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
• Support In this case we should use our common sense, this is how most English speakers think of the country, in normal discussions Cote D'Ivoire would be generally regarded as an affectation, even among people who knew where you meant. PatGallacher (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The argument seems to be based around the policy of using the common English names for places. This policy is not uniformly implemented across wikipedia. See Kolkata (Calcutta) as an example. Kolkata is not an English word, but perhaps its lack of accent marks is less offensive to English-preferring readers. Kolkata is named as it is because it is the correct name for the place. Suppose Fred chose to change his name to Nathan and asked you to refer to him as Nathan from then on. Would you still call him Fred? The answer is No, because to do so is rude. Ignore the policy, it is wrong in this instance. Cliff (talk) 03:24, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom (overwhelming common usage) and Misplaced Pages's guideline on using English. A couple of points that are sometimes not fully considered:
  1. "Ivory Coast" is routinely and usually used in English sources as the unqualified name for the country, i.e. without a parenthetical "Côte d'Ivoire" whereas "Côte d'Ivoire" often carries a parenthetical "Ivory Coast". Therefore, "Ivory Coast" is preferable per the principle of least astonishment. As the nominee notes, educated readers who partake of multiple English news sources might be genuinely confused by seeing "Côte d'Ivoire" as a title.
  2. I realize this is original research but, in professional dealings with individual 10-20 Ivorians over several years, I have only had one person introduce himself as from "Côte d'Ivoire". The remainder have simply stated they were from "Ivory Coast". So it's clearly not a huge issue of contention or offense in this regard. —  AjaxSmack  06:10, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Based on the sources provided in previous discussions, "overwelming common usage" is exagerated. I've pasted below some sources from a previous move request, because I think a lot of baseless claims are being made in this discussion. Moreover, proper reference works such as the CIA factbook or Britannica all name the country "Côte d'Ivoire". Since we are also a reference work, it would make sense to follow these sources, rather than newspaper journalists. See below for some more sources:

• • Close ties to France since independence in 1960, the development of cocoa production for export, and foreign investment made Cote d'Ivoire one of the most prosperous of the West African states, but did not protect it from political turmoil from Central Intelligence Agency
  • Cote d'Ivoire star striker Didier Drogba was voted the Man of the Match after his team's 3-0 win over DPR Korea in 2010 FIFA World Cup Group G here on Friday from Xinhua News Agency
  • Sven-Goran Eriksson, Côte d’Ivoire’s coach was quoted saying: “They’ve acquired discipline and organisation. These are good players, they listen and they want to learn and work. Côte d’Ivoire have a great team and a very bright future.” from The Hot News Herald
  • About one dozen people, including women and children, have been confirmed dead in Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire, after heavy rain storms this week caused mudslides in some of the most run-down areas of the country's main port from UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
  • Cote d'Ivoire will need a miracle and some help from Brazil if they want to reach the next round from Irish Times
  • Portugal joined Brazil in the last 16 of the World Cup on Friday after the pair drew 0-0 in their final Group G game, while Côte d'Ivoire were eliminated despite a 3-0 win over North Korea from Mail and Guardian
  • After their 3-0 win over Korea DPR, Côte d'Ivoire's players were looking back – both at their first two matches in Group G and at their FIFA World Cup™ debut four years ago from FIFA
  • Portugal stormed to life in a 7-0 rout of Korea DPR last time out, putting themselves well ahead of Côte d'Ivoire on potential goal difference from Soccerway
  • For the second straight World Cup, Côte d'Ivoire bumped into another hot group and are on their way out again at the first round stage from Super Sport
  • Brazilian Kaka is suspended for the game after being sent off in his team’s 3-1 triumph over Côte d’Ivoire from Betfred
  • Cote d'Ivoire coach Sven-Goran Eriksson said on Thursday that his former team, England, can beat Germany in the round of 16 at the World Cup from People's Daily
  • Of the more than 5 million non-Ivoirian Africans living in Cote d'Ivoire, one-third to one-half are from Burkina Faso; the rest are from Ghana, Guinea, Mali, Nigeria, Benin, Senegal, Liberia, and Mauritania from US Department of State
  • The mission analyzed the economic situation and outlook of Côte d’Ivoire in the context of Article IV Consultation and conducted the first review of the implementation of the economic program supported by the Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility (PRGF) ., the IMF’s concessional window for low-income countries from International Monetary Fund
  • Côte d’Ivoire was once the economic miracle of Africa and a role model for stability on the continent from Lonely Planet
  • Côte d’Ivoire peacefully achieved autonomy in 1958 and independence in 1960, when Félix Houphouët-Boigny was elected president from Encyclopaedia Britannica
  • Côte d'Ivoire has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 from World Trade Organization
  • Côte d’Ivoire’s civil war began in 2002 and has since fluctuated between periods of intense violence followed by relative calm from International Rescue Committee
  • The Côte d'Ivoire lies too far west to have been significant in the 17th and 18th century development of the Guinea coast gold, and slave trade from Geographia
  • In March, teams handed over the mobile clinics and the mobile nutrition programme they had managed in the western region of Côte d'Ivoire to the local authorities from Medecins Sans Frontières
  • Côte d'Ivoire's economy is based on the export of cash crops. It is the largest producer of cocoa in the world, producing 40% of global supply, and the fifth largest producer of robusta coffee from Foreign and Commonwealth Office
  • In the south of Côte d'Ivoire is a 320-mile (515-km) wide strip of coastal land on the Gulf of Guinea from C%C3%B4te+d'Ivoire&source=bl&ots=tozv-H-mxr&sig=FGttWwbEQVNl7wC3oUWLFdiat_Q&hl=en&ei=0GklTL2UL6L40wTZ4-nEBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q&f=false Cultures of the World : Côte d'Ivoire by Patricia Sheehan
  • Houphouët—who for more than three decades was "the 'active center' of an institutionalized state structure" in Côte d'Ivoire—sought during his long reign to recognize dissent but also to contain it within state structures, notably through cosultative mass meetings he called "Dialogue" from C%C3%B4te+d'Ivoire&hl=en&ei=U2slTLiVIYju0wTG1621BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=C%C3%B4te%20d'Ivoire&f=false The Emergent Independent Press in Benin and Côte d'Ivoire by W Joseph Campbell Laurent (talk) 07:45, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you found a couple uses of the name cote divoire but Ivory Coast is so overwhelmingly used in everyday English and the press that if we start to list these silly types of items as you did we'd run out of bandwidth here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:34, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

So besides calling people who disagree with you "silly" and "trolls", do you have anything to contribute to your own move request? It seems that you want to change the country's name because you can't even write it properly. Laurent (talk) 10:18, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not glad that you have nothing better to say than dismissive insults and mockery at those whom you disagree with. I personally find not one item in the list to be silly. I happen to agree with the position of the one who made the list but to stoop to calling the World Trade Organisation, Encyclopaedia Britannica, the CIA, Chinese news, and the United Nations silly types of items which presumably are worthy of instant dismissal while claiming an obvious overwhelming use in presumably American everyday English for Ivory Coast does nothing beneficial for anyone. The usage in international media is generally about evenly divided. Ignoring that which you don't like is an example of why i voted as i did, which you subsequently commented on. Misplaced Pages is neither American nor yours personally. delirious & lost ☯ 10:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

• O P P O S E per the overwhelming idiocy and Americanism and Englishism of most everyone listed before me in this round. This has become not a perennial proposal but a semi-annual proposal and hell, there is already a failed RFC on this very matter already in the current version of the talk page. Come on. This is just hoping that people get so fed up that eventually those pushing for it will have a majority on the 11th or 26th try.
  As has been pointed out by a few others, the common name in the media you personally frequent does not make anything common, just common to you. The common name policy itself does not even address such an issue. What is common to me might be so unfamiliar to you that you believe it to be fictitious. If we were to ask some certain people we might find among them the commonality of the name being Kanata not Canada. It is all in whom you sample. Media, which are subject to style guides and publisher's preference are hardly an appropriate point of reference as they are expressing a bias. What ever happened to the simple concept of what does the country call itself when written in English? Yeah, it uses French when things do appear in English. The CIA also uses French. Here is a most wild thought - look at google maps. http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=5.047171,1.054688&spn=21.62687,45&z=5 So notice anything in the naming pattern of the countries? Yeah, those countries of Arabic name bare both an Arabic and an English name whilst Côte d'Ivoire caries no English translation. Côte d'Ivoire is the proper name in French and English. delirious & lost ☯ 09:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
  Don't forget Yahoo maps too http://ca.maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=9.468648&lon=-3.978222&zoom=7 and Bing maps too http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&where1=C%C3%B4te%20d%E2%80%99Ivoire&q=ivory%20coast&form=LMLTSN&cp=7.515186849207126~-5.634990558028221&lvl=5&sty=r&encType=1 (i even searched for "Ivory Coast" and it told me 'no no, wrong name'). All these maps are from rather reliable sources and all treat Côte d'Ivoire as the proper name in English for the country. delirious & lost ☯ 09:14, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
  As for the nominator's rationale being a political leader being ousted as "Obviously time for another RM." If this passes i will say it is "Obviously time for another RM." to have the move reverted because not being able to pronounce it or a reader's presumed complete ignorance and the need to pander to the basest of intelligence is hardly becoming of a reference work. Such is why television shows like Hot In Cleveland so openly mock Misplaced Pages. But back on topic, if you insist upon abiding by google books and i insist upon abiding by google maps and they conflict does that then cancel out google as a reliable source? Does the fact that google books is merely a regurgitation get less consideration than google maps which is their own work? Most every fight here has cited American, Canadian, and British sources. All of them are of equally blah use because none of them are common to the people being written about.
  If such is irrelevant then as was mentioned earlier all places in India need to be titled according to their American or British or Canadian name rather than their local name in use in English. I dare someone in favour of renaming Côte d'Ivoire to request a move of Kolkata to Calcutta because Kolkata is so uncommon that in reading this it is the first time in my life i have ever seen the word Kolkata. Kolkata is not an English word and neither is Calcutta but Calcutta looks more normal to someone from western Europe or North America. And that is the substance of the reason put forward for moving Côte d'Ivoire to Ivory Coast; those in western Europe and North America with little or no familiarity with French are often put off by the name of the country. It is an easy translation. Pandering to the lowest common denominator of human intelligence and respect has much of the media insisting upon using what is nothing more than a derogatory nickname.
  If you truly want to know what is common then sample large and small publications from various languages and places all over the planet. If the name remains the same despite the language of the document being German or Italian or Spanish or Japanese then you have probably found the true common name. Of course the common name policy actually expressly instructs you to disregard all non-English, which is actually part of the problem rather than an aid to a resolution, especially when looking for a common name that crosses linguistic boundaries to begin with. I don't know how else i can say that i oppose this and oppose the existence of the proposition. It was not time to make another request to move the article. delirious & lost ☯ 09:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Once many of us read "idiocy and Americanism and Englishism of most everyone listed before me in this round" we stop reading thinking it's just a common troll not worthy of any attention. You might want to tone down the scolding and just state your case. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't tone things down. And you gave me an edit conflict to finishing stating my case. I am very anti-English-only and in far too many corners of Misplaced Pages i am coming across sentiments that amount to 'if its not English don't link to it even if it has an article because it is inherently not notable and has no place in ' and that is where the elitism, Americanism, and idiocy is really obvious. And you can go back under your bridge now and read from there the extent of my involvement in this issue here on this very talk page. delirious & lost ☯ 09:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

You "don't tone things down" and you're "anti-English-only". That's not a good way to be a productive contributor to the English Misplaced Pages. Powers 12:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah... I'm someone who closes a lot of RM requests, and I can say that, when I see someone use the word "idiocy", or otherwise show that they're unable to "comment on the content, not the contributor", I get the immediate impression that the editor is not serious, and is here to fight, not to edit. If you wish to be taken seriously, Deliriousandlost, comment on the content, not the contributor. Saying, "you can go back under your bridge now" tells me that you're hoping to be blocked from this project soon. If you can't behave somewhat professionally, please go away.

How disappointing, to have to address behavior issues in what should be a respectful and productive discussion. -GTBacchus 00:27, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support, per WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. Powers 12:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Cote d'Ivoire is used considerably in English sources and it's the name the country is called in international relations. I don't agree with stubbornly insisting on "using English" if the French is commonly used in English anyway and is its official name in English. Rennell435 (talk) 16:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

This discussion was listed at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countries. Rennell435 (talk) 17:02, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH it seems to me that the French name has not clearly and undoubtedly crossed over into the English language lexicon due to the still common use of Ivory Coast, yes English absorbs others words/names from other languages(like any other language) aka San Francisco Sand Diego etc but here there is many sources here that still site Ivory Coast to cast doubt on the notion that the French name has really jumped into the English language lexicon without any ambiguity, so with that said i would suggest the name be in English Ivory Coast for the time being.--Wikiscribe (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
• Outrageous! The colour of the bikeshed roof should be blue, not red! There'll be blood shed yet over this, I tell you!! Fences&Windows 22:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

lol...we can never have too much levity around here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - Well let's see where other encyclopedias put the article shall we? Encyclopedia Britannica and Yahoo both use Cote d'Ivoire. So does the World Fact Book. Google News shows 700 recent hits for Cote d'Ivoire vs 400 for Ivory Coast. I'm not saying that Cote d'Ivoire IS the common name, but I think it's at least clear that Ivory Coast isn't the common name. Usage is a mixed bag at best. I think we should default to the official english language name of the country in the absence of a common name. TDL (talk) 01:00, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support WP:USEENGLISH Bhny (talk) 01:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
  • If we should use English, then "Côte d'Ivoire" is the right choice because that's the official name in English language. Laurent (talk) 03:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
    • USEENGLISH is nothing to do with official names, and I don't think there is a WP:USEOFFICIAL. Are you really saying "Côte d'Ivoire" is English and not French? Bhny (talk) 06:00, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
      • There are many English words of French origin, like "bureau", "accommodation", "crème brûlée", etc. and "Côte d'Ivoire" is just one of them. Whatever its origin, this is the name of the country in English language (not just officially but also in many encyclopedia, books, newspapers, etc.). Laurent (talk) 06:13, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
        • (edit conflict)Laurent beat me to the punch. "Côte d'Ivoire" is listed in many English language dictionaries and encyclopedias. Obviously the word is originally of French origin, but ~1/3 of all words in the entire English language are "French". The fact that a word is a loanword from another language doesn't mean that it's not an English word as well. TDL (talk) 06:20, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• Weak oppose Cote d'Ivoire, being used in English sources, is in effect one of the "English names" of the country. So are names like Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, etc. insofar as they have entered common usage among (at least certain communities of) English speakers. I don't know if Cote D'Ivoire is the common name but "use English" is not really a valid argument against it. This isn't quite the same as, say, calling Munich "München". 146.151.66.63 (talk) 01:56, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose as the current title is one of the two common names in use in English with the added benefit that it is the name listed in the ISO 3166. Neither name is dominant, and when there is more than one common name, we should defer to the name in English that the entity in question desires to use. --Polaron | Talk 02:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

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