Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:17, 15 March 2006

Is "Voluntarism" supposed to be volontarisme? -- Beland 00:20, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You make a good point. I had the same thought, in fact, also that I've never seen either dirigisme or dirigiste ever used in English without surrounding quotations indicating that it is a foreign, i.e. French, term. Ditto for dirigism and dirigist spellings: never seen those at all.

I don't find any of these variants -- with or without the terminal "e" -- in my Webster's American Dictionary. They are in the OED Online, however: most of the examples there use surrounding quotations, but there are some which do not -- for both terminal "e" and non. Also "dirigistic".

So I guess we're stuck with the French term, in our ecumenical English / Américain. OK with me, as the phenomenon it describes is pretty common and I can't think of a better English term.

--Kessler 23:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

American System

Advocates of the American System have been adding links to that article in a number of unreleated articles. The three elements of the AS were high tariffs, infrastructure improvemtns, and a national bank. I see only one of those three elements in this article. Can proponents of the link please provide a noteworthy source who connects them? Thanks, -Will Beback 04:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be committed to a reductionist approach in trying to understand these topics. The American System is not defined by components x, y, and z, but rather by an overarching idea that generates those components. If you look at the intro to Dirigisme, you will find that it says that "Dirigisme... is an economic term designating an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence.

While the term has been applied occasionally to centrally planned economies, where the government effectively controls production and allocation of resources (in particular, to certain socialist economies where the national government owns the means of production), it originally had neither of these meanings when applied to France, and generally designates a mainly capitalist economy with a strong economic participation by government."

This introduction could just as easily describe the American System, and it also makes clear that the term Dirigism may be used to describe economies other than that of France, answering an objection that you have made in other locations. Because of the obvious kinship of the ideas, it is perfectly legitimate to direct readers from one article to the other; the American System (economics) article references Colbert as one of the inspirations for the American System. And this article also refers readers to Mixed Economy, for similarly legitimate reasons. --HK 16:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing in the American System about a planned economy. Communism and command economies would be a closer comparison. High tariffs and road-building are not at all the same as a planned economy. Again, do you have any legtitimate source for this linkage, or is it your own original research? -Will Beback 18:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with Will Beback, this user has also been trying to spread "Left Gatekeeper" terms in articles of well-known leftists to spread Larouchite POV.--Jersey Devil 19:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Dirigism was DeGaulle's economic plan to revitalize France. It's emphasis was quite similiar to American System as HK describes above. Are the two exact? No. Are they similiar and warrant SEE ALSO's? Yes. Just as someone reading about Communism would want to read further about the similiar socialism or democratic socialism. It is perfectly legitimate to provide additional links for the reader to understand similiar systems in history. Will Beback, would you not agree that the two systems are similiar enough to warrant linking? Mercantilism which predates both is also similiar in its philosophy, though there are differences. Adding American System to unrelated articles is wrong and was not done. Adding it to articles of similiar substance is right for educational purposes. Jersey Devil, you've been warned about violating the decorum of Misplaced Pages by bringing up unrelated material and 'opinion' on your part about HK. It is also inappropriate to bring another dispute relating to the Gatekeeper page and vote thereof, here. Please stop. We get nowhere if you post as you've done. Let us be reasonable here. --Northmeister 19:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If Dirigisme and the American System are similar then I'm sure that a reliable source has made the comparison previously. I can't find such a comparison. On the face of it, they do not appear similar, as I've said above. One concerns a planned economy and state-owned enterprises, the other proposes high tariffs, road-building, and a national bank. We agree that adding links to AS to unrelated articles is wrong, and I wish it would stop. Regarding HK's editing actions, if he is doing the same thing here as on other articles then it is a problem, but discussions of editors should be held on other pages such as user talk pages. -Will Beback 21:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Dirigisme is not a planned economy where the means of production are owned by the government, it is rather directed action toward national goals of economic expansion and technological achievement, quite similiar in how the American System encouraged American enterprise through its national banking, internal improvement to infrastructure, and tariff policies. DeGaulle did not want to embrace a command economy where the means of production were directly in the governments hands as in socialism or communism, thus Dirigisme. That is not to say some enterprises were not nationalized, but many were after DeGaulle. That said, not only should the reader be directed toward the American System (as similiar but not the same), but towards Mercantilism (in the same light), Mixed Economy (in the same light), Communism (as another economy belief), Laisse Faire (as the alternative). This is essentially an economic article about a policy DeGaulle embraced resulting from same gene's pool as American System (forgive my comparison), whereas Colbert of France etc. were the Adam's of that; that is the same as socialism belonging to the same gene pool or strain as Communism, whose Adam was Marxism. When a reader reads about Dirigisme for whatever purpose they may well wish to know of similiar systems that stimulated the national economy through various devices, such as the American System or the system of Japan today. We agree they are not the same. We agree that the American System should not be linked to a non-associated article. --Northmeister 21:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Show me the source that links the two concepts and I'll cheerfully re-add the link myself. Since you assert there is a strong connection there must be someone who has noticed this similarity. -Will Beback 21:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I think your overreaching here. I did the See Also over to include different economic systems, those similiar and different. Look them over and offer any suggestions on inclusion or deduction. The goal is to provide the reader with see also links for further economic study. --Northmeister 23:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If that was the goal I'd have thought that those other links would have been added in the first place. -Will Beback 23:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

That should be the goal of any article (which is what I meant), to offer further links within or without wikipedia for further study that is related. I agree, the other links should of been added earlier and maybe you can offer improvement to them if you think I missed any proper links. --Northmeister 23:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Jersey Devil Reverting

Jersey Devil, why did you revert without discussion here? I added the links and asked for discussion so we can work together on this. Why did you revert the links? Explain your reasoning? --Northmeister 00:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Since Jersey Devil has decided not to discuss his reversion, I consider it an act of vandalism and have reverted his reversion for that reason. All I ask is a discussion on why he does not approve my latest edit and to join us in a civil discourse here. --Northmeister 01:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Please do not falsely claim vandalism on page history summaries. In Misplaced Pages we have a very specific definition for the term vandalism (See Here). Thank you. As to why I reverted it is because it is POV pushing for a term used by Larouche which you and the other user are trying to promote which has nothing to do with French economics.--Jersey Devil 01:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What in this is POV? To link to similiar sites is POV? Your arguments don't make any sense. Once again I am asking you to stop linking this historic American term to LaRouche alone. You are stalking (see here) and vandalising a page as well as harassing me (see here). Stop the VANDALISM (see here) do not disrupt this page to make a point and honor the policy of assuming good faith towards me (see here). Lastly I ask that you do not revert a page until consensus is reached by those editing at any given time as to what should be done. Simply reverting in that manner you have done considering your history is VANDALISM and not helpful to improving this article. --Northmeister 02:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

See Also

To avoid some sort of edit war over See Also in this article let's consider the Edit that Jersey Devil keeps deleting through reversion (thrice).

"State intervenes, private ownership of production:

• American System
• Mercantilism
• Mixed economy

State control of the means of production:

• Communism
• Socialism

Corporations dictate policy, private ownership of production:

• Laissez Faire
• Corporatization"

The intention is to offer links for the reader to further their studies of similiar and different economic systems. Dirigisme does not exist outside other systems...it's links are the same as the mixed economy/American System/German post-war Economy/Japanese Miracle economy going back to the original policies of Cameralism of Germany, Colbertism of France, and Mercantilism of England (Cromwell to Corn Law repeals). The emphasis is on government intervention such as the American System's Pacific Railway Acts, Cumberland Road, National Banking Act etc. in he economy to stimulate production and growth as opposed to the opposite school of thought whose roots start with Smith, Physiocrat's of France known as Laizee Faire, or hands off from government. The ideas of Marx form a third line of economics, that produced socialism, democratic socialism, communism, that called for government owenership of the means of production in a mild (democratic socialism) or excessive (communism in USSR) form. To deprive the reader of these alternatives and the associative roots of Dirigistic thought is wrong. What do others think. I will hear all sides on this. Let's work this out and come to consensus on this stuff rather than conduct constant reverts that make no sense. --Northmeister 04:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of these links are available through the category system, which exists just so that related articles of this type can be found by interested readers. -Will Beback 05:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see them there. If you wish to add them to the category links, go ahead. Thanks. Also consider, 'See also' is meant to direct the reader to relevant articles here at wikipedia and is included in many articles across wikipedia. The ones above I think are relevant. --Northmeister 06:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Added philosophic roots, similiar economic systems, and opposing systems for the reader to carry on their study of economics and related articles. --Northmeister 03:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And of course it goes without saying that we have no sources fot these designations but are simply adding them based on our own original research. -Will Beback 05:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

These are in the See Also, for further study. They are not in the description of the article. They are found here at wikipedia and can be read. Original research? Give me a break! --Northmeister 07:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not for us to say that Communism is opposed to Dirigisme. If you have a source which puts them in that category please provide it. -Will Beback 17:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not certain that the "See also" section needs links to opposing systems. But on the issue of similar systems, Northmeister is completely correct. You don't need a source to direct the reader's attention to a related article. You just need common sense. Please avoid contention for the sake of contention. --HK 21:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Common sense = Original research. Please stop promoting LaRouche's American System. The ArbCom has asked the editors not edit war to place LaRouche theories in articles unrelated to him. -Will Beback 21:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Although you have hinted at it elsewhere, this is the first time that you have openly espoused the belief that LaRouche invented the American System. Now, that is a clear example of original research, because I know of no reputable source that credits LaRouche with the capability of influencing American history more than a century before he was born. Did you actually intend to write what you just wrote? --HK 23:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)