Talk:Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy: Difference between revisions

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Is the chart relevent to the article, or is it OR/synthesis?

The chart is supposedly intended to illustrate the correlation between height and weight in two hypothetical human populations. It appears not to be based on any sourced data, instead using invented data intended to 'prove' the very point it is supposed to be testing, and as such its use seems to be a breach of NPOV, and/or a synthesis. Unless someone can provide evidence that it is based on real data, I intend to remove it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:31, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no WP requirement that a chart only used to illustrate a mathematical argument must be based on real data.Miradre (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a 'mathematical argument' - the chart purports to illustrate human populations. I shall delete it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do, it clarifies nothing.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I can change the text to clearly state that it is about a hypothetical population.Miradre (talk) 19:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you change the text to state that it is about a two imaginary populations chosen to 'prove' its validity? And can I add a third imaginary population to 'prove' (per the 'Multi-Locus Allele Clusters' infobox above) that the methodology is flawed if one finds a clinal variation in allele frequency, and doesn't preselect the data to suit? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The chart is only about illustrating the method. No claims about any real population is made. I will clarify when adding back the image.Miradre (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Simple example

A simple example might help to explain the fallacy. For example, suppose that group 1 exhibits equal numbers of AB and ab, while group 2 exhibits the same numbers of Ab and aB. Then each of A/a and B/b is independent of group, but AB is very strongly correlated. Of course that's just made up, but is there a similar, possibly even real, example in the literature? 195.10.225.68 (talk) 15:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Not only is it 'made up', it doesn't remotely resemble the situation that Lewontin and Edwards are discussing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Can we please do something about the title?

It seems evident from the recent AfD debate that most commentators agreed that the article title needed revision to something more neutral - i.e. one that didn't assert that Lewontin's argument was a fallacy, but instead that Edwards had described it as such. Can I ask for contributors to make suggestions for an alternative title, as a matter that needs resolution. For now, I have added a template to the article, drawing attention to the issue. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I count 6 out of 14 in Favor of changing the article title, my count may be off, though. Andy, six could count for something, but does this honestly sound like consensus to you? --SlowhandMediator (talk) 02:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Boldly done. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

And now the article title has almost no connection to what the article is covering. This article is not about Lewontin's argument, but a paper response to Lewontin's argument. Why don't you just change it to the entire title of the paper, "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy"? Silverseren 00:11, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

because that paper is not notable. Of curse it will tak some tweaking t make the article cover its new topic.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

And also, of course, because the title of the paper isn't neutral... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The paper is notable according to the community at AfD. This action of trying to change the subject is blatantly going against community consensus. Furthermore, the title of a paper can't be non-neutral, the title is what it is. Something is non-neutral if we, within the encyclopedia, try to change it to something that it is not. That's exactly what you are doing here. Silverseren 00:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The AfD was not about the notabiliy of the paper but about the topic "lewontin's fallacy" - also it was clear hat consenus was to change the article's title to something neutral that covers both sides of the story. You seem confused about what neutraliy is - consider reading W:NPOV and WP:POVFORK.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Lewontin's Fallacy is the paper. It was always the paper. It is not a topic independent of the paper itself and all of the sources are discussing it in context of the paper. The other side of the argument is Lewontin's argument, which needs to be discussed in a separate article, as was stated at AfD. Silverseren 00:32, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That was stated by smeone in the afd yes, but it was wrong and also clearly not the consenus. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:37, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You yourself stating it was wrong doesn't mean anything. You alone can't determine what the consensus is, especially since you have a Merge/Delete opinion on the subject, not making you very neutral in terms of the consensus. Silverseren 00:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

But snce you vote keep automatically for all articles no matter how crappy hey are your opinions shsould be considered much more neutral? Please read the Afd agin - even several of the keep !voters clearly state the title needs to be changed. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:00, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I think I am more qualified to comprehend the consensus of an AfD discussion, considering the number I have been involved in. I vote Keep 93% of the time and AfDs close in conjunction with that belief 87% of the time. This is just on my last 250 AfDs however. You, meanwhile, have only been involved in 68 AfD discussions throughout the past five years and you have been correct only 62% of the time. Silverseren 01:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

For a discussion about an article regarding the application of statistics, you seem rather lax in your use of them. Snottywong's tool informs us that in the last 250 AfD's you have voted in, your vote matched the result 72.8% of the time. Not that this tells us much. If, as you suggest, AfD's close as keep 87% of the time, then all you need to do is !vote keep for every AfD, to improve your success rate! AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I included No Consensus closes in with that percentage, as they default to keep. And I never said that all AfDs close as Keep with that percentage, I usually only become involved in AfDs where I think I can improve the articles in question and make it a Keep. Just like what I did with this article. Silverseren 01:59, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"I included No Consensus closes in with that percentage". Yup. A nice example of how to mislead with statistics. Hence the rather strange wording I suppose: "AfDs close in conjunction with that belief 87% of the time". Have you considered a career in politics? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You seriously keep statistics of other person's Afd participation...tha is creepy. In ay case Afds areno abou being correct - it is no a quiz show. Perhaps your highr percentag of "correctness" is because you unlike me have an army of automatic keep voters to back you up. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Um, no, I just have access to the really awesome AfD Stats tool that Snottywong made. If you go through the toolserver stuff, you'll find some pretty cool things beyond just the edit counter. And i'm just going to ignore your comment about the ARS, beyond the fact that I haven't used a rescue template in more than 500 deletion discussions past, so most of the discussions i'm involved in don't even have any other ARS members show up. If they do show up, it's on their own prerogative after randomly stumbling onto the discussion. Silverseren 01:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

ROFL! AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:16, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"The title of a paper can't be non-neutral". Don't be ridiculous. The title asserts an opinion (that Lowontin's argument is fallacious) as a fact. That isn't neutral. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I think what Silver Seren is trying to say is, the title is opinion, but reporting on the title is not opinion. Is it helpful to change the title of the article named after a paper, if someone is searching for the title of the paper?--SlowhandMediator (talk) 01:45, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

See, the issue with what you're doing is that you don't understand what WP:NPOV is about. It states "All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view." It means that our representation of the outside content must be done in a neutral manner. For example, if the subject of the an article is on a hypothetical notable speech given by what most consider to be an evil dictator, we cannot present the speech as being negative or as being given by an evil person. We can put in responses to the speech and what people think of it and that would be proper, but changing anything about the speech itself is actually non-neutral, because you're trying to represent the subject in some way that it is not.

'You can present the person as evil, to the extent that the sources do', is what you are saying right?--SlowhandMediator (talk) 01:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That's what you're doing here. The outside subject of a paper called Lewontin's fallacy cannot be non-neutral, it just is. It is the title of the paper and is accurate and encyclopedic. If we try to change the title or any other representation of the paper away from what it is and what is presented in sources, then that action therein is non-neutral. Hence, by moving the title away from the actual title of the paper, you yourself have made the article non-neutral. Silverseren 00:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Let me add that, even if this hypothetical speech's title was "All X should die", with X being some group, changing the article away from that title is a non-neutral action, as that is the title of the speech. Of course, this is just an extreme example. Silverseren 00:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. The articl will be written from a neutral perspective regardlss of is title. It just so happens that the article in question is not notable indepenently of the original article that it is a comment on. It also so happens that treating the response article separately from the original article is a breach of WP:POVFORk and of WP:NPOV. It seems you need to read both of those again. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, the subject is notable, according to the community consensus at AfD. The consensus was not to merge to an article about Lewontin's paper, as you seem to be trying to do. It is not a FORK of anything, it is an article in and of itself that the sources directly discuss. You're the ones going against consensus and policy. Silverseren 01:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You are wrong. Take it to ANI or AFDR. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Will do. Silverseren 01:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that's probably not necessary, since you seem to have informed everyone else in the AfD about this discussion, which is good. I'll just wait for some of them. Silverseren 01:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The keep arguments were based on the subject matter, not Edwards' article; if it was, the title should be "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy". Lewontin's argument isn't the best choice either - "genetic diversity within and among human populations" would probably be more along the lines of what this should be about. Guettarda (talk) 03:09, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The title of the article ought to be "Lewontin's fallacy" rather than "Lewontin's Argument" for the following reasons:

The phrase appears in the title of Edwards' paper is so is properly based upon a source, rather being a novel construction of our own devising.
The matter is accepted as a statistical fallacy by authorities such as Richard Dawkins.
The phrase seems to be the common name for the matter per sources such as Michael Ruse (2009), The evolution wars: a guide to the debates, As it happens, Lewontin has been accused (by AWF Edwards , RA Fisher's last Cambridge student) of making a gross mistake about statistics — so much so that it is now referred to as "Lewontin's fallacy."

Warden (talk) 03:17, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The title should be "Lewontin's argument", since the general reasoning is accepted, even though there might be a flaw in the statistical justification. As some subsequent commentators have mentioned, Anthony Edwards' paper itself relies on an assumption of statistical independence, which need not necessarily be justified. It is just a short note and it's not up to wikipedia to blow it out of proportion. The contributions of Edwards only make sense in the proper context, i.e. after a clear explanation of what Lewontin originally put forward. Some of those commenting here seem to be doing so to make a WP:POINT about the process involved in AfDs rather than improving this encyclopedia. The "scientific" arguments presented do not stand up to closer examination. Mathsci (talk) 04:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

How about it Silver? Can you defend this? --SlowhandMediator (talk) 04:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

What point is that? I'm here because User:Maunus posted on my talk page, inviting me to comment. The AFD seemed quite routine. What seems more in need of explanation is User:SlowhandMediator which seems to be a new account. Warden (talk) 04:27, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This article, and the AfD, was in regards to "Lewontin's fallacy", which is both the paper itself and the name of the theory. All of the sources are discussing Lewontin's fallacy. I'm not saying that Lewontin's original paper and his subsequent argument aren't notable. There are a number of sources about that sort of article and an article should be made on that. Then, there should be a background section in this article that has a main page link to that article. However, the AfD conclusion was about keeping the subject of this article, which is on the fallacy and the response to it. The response section is about the fallacy, Richard Dawkins is discussing the fallacy. I am against trying to essentially minimize the fallacy and its notability. Silverseren 04:46, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, which of the sources refer to a subject known as Lewontin's Argument? They may discuss a subject that includes an argument made by Lewontin, but you're making up a title that doesn't exist. Silverseren 04:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"Lewontin's fallacy" is part of the title of a short note, not the name of a theory, contrary to what Silver seren suggests. I have no idea why he is making such an absurd suggestion. Lewontin's argument does appear to be quite widely accepted, if not its precise statistical underpinning. It is equally silly to take Dawkin's book written for a general audience, i.e. not an academic book, to justify that this is a "theory", when Dawkins says no such thing. Articles in wikipedia are edited on the basis of what can be found in the best sources: in genetics or science in general, we rely on academic textbooks or articles, not on what the hoi polloi have suggested in an AfD debate. Mathsci (talk) 05:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

It is an academic paper, not a short note. Again, you're trying to minimize the subject just like in the AfD. Sure, this book alone wouldn't be enough, but that's why the references include this college textbook, this handbook, and this book. This is the same exact argument we had in the AfD and yours was clearly not the consensus version, as it closed as Keep. Silverseren 06:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

comment: There appear to be two issues here. (1) That the title of the article is a problem that needs to be fixed. (2) That the content of the article needs to be fixed. To the extent that there is a problem here, it is (2) not (1). The article needs to have a clear and contextual argument about what "Lewontin's Fallacy" is referring to. That means including significant content about the original paper. aprock (talk) 04:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with tightening the information on Lewontin's Fallacy. The information on how Edwards' statistics work especially needs to be written in a manner that is more comprehensible for the reader. At this point, Richard Dawkin's comment and interpretation of the Lewontin's Fallacy paper is the most clear cut example of what it means. Silverseren 05:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Why is Silver seren relying on a short comment in a popular book for writing an article on science on wikipedia? Mathsci (talk) 05:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

A summary of Edwards' paper made by one of the world's leading evolutionary biologists, who would obviously be knowledgeable about the topic in the paper. Silverseren 07:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a popular book for a general audience, not an academic text. It fails WP:RS in this particular contextt, regardless of how notable you think Rchard Dawkins is. Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The context here is the title of the article. It is our policy that we write for a general audience. In determining the title, a source of this kind is the best possible because it demonstrates the accessible language used by an authoritative writer when writing for a general audience. The book in question was nominated for a science writing prize by the Royal Society and so its quality and respectability for our purposes seem ideal. Warden (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

So before we argue about either content or name, we need to establish what this article is about. The AFD is useless here, since most of the discussion wasn't about Edwards' paper. Before we can move forward, we need to determine the topic of the article? As I see it, if consensus is that this is about Edwards' article, then:

it should be named Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy
it can be quickly dispatched to AFD, since it fails WP:NBOOK.

If, on the other hand, we're interested in the topic we need to find a title that's accessible to a general reader. "Lewontin's fallacy" and "Lewontin's argument" are both vague to the point of being useless.

We do, of course, have a third option, and that is to write an article either about Lewontin's original paper (The apportionment of human diversity) which is, of course, far more notable than Edwards' response to it, or we could write an article entitled something like Human genetic diversity. Which would, of course, encompass Lewontin's arguments, Edwards', and the wealth of other material on this topic. Guettarda (talk) 15:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The third alternative sounds very reasonable to me and, if done skillfully, would result in a proper encyclopedia article. Mathsci (talk) 15:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with options 2 and 3 suggested by Guettarda. I would like to note that in vogel and motulsky's human genetics the section which treates this subject is named after Lewontin's paper and Edwards' paper is cited but not mentioned. It also calls Lewontin's argument "irrefutable mathematical fact" (cited from memory original choice of words might be slightly different) and only mention that this fact does not mean that whenlooking at multiple loci populations do cluster (Edwards' argument). The book Human Biological Variation by Mielke, Kongisberg et al. also refers to Lewontins argument as a fact, not as a disproven fallacy.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:26, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

One more reason that the current title is less than desirable is that lewontin is in fact equally well known for another important argument - namely the one that group differences in biological traits can be due to only environmental factors. There is no tradition for talking about Lewontin's first and second argument, so that would be neologisms.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:32, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Lewontin's paper would also fail NBOOK, if it wasn't for that fact that academic papers don't fall under NBOOK for either of these. Academic books do, but this isn't a book. As far as I know, there is no specific SSG for academic papers, so we default to the GNG, which was met and proven to be met in the AfD, which is what we were discussing in it. And, pray, do tell what subject you believe we were discussing in the AfD? Because we weren't discussing Lewontin's paper, other than to say that that should probably have an article too.

And there are two ways we can go with this. We can either have the article be written about the paper, thus titling it Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy or we can have the article discuss the concept/argument of Lewontin's fallacy. Truthfully, the former would be the easiest to do, as the sources are directly discussing the paper and the responses to it. Some of the text would need to change a bit, but that isn't that difficult of a job.

And, again, yes, there should be an article on Lewontin's groundbreaking paper, but that is a separate article. Once that is made, then a properly formatted Background section can be made in this article that describes Lewontin's theory and a main page template link can be given to direct to the article on his paper. Then, the rest of this article is about Edwards' paper, as are the sources. Silverseren 19:46, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there maybe some sort of compromise between the two arguments, for example "Lewontin's Fallacy(scientific paper)". --SlowhandMediator (talk) 23:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That works too. Or even "Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper)". I mean, if the issue is misunderstanding the title to be a real thing or some sort of insult at Lewontin. Silverseren 23:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Boldly created retitled article. ³ SlowhandBlues¯ 12:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

What the heck? Not only has SlowhandBlues copy-and-pasted an article to produce two different POV-forks, (with no indication in the history of one, as required to preserve authorship history/copyright), but he/she has been editing this page under two different usernames (also as SlowhandMediator) - a direct contravention of policy. It is undoubtedly going to need administrator attention to sort this mess out, even without dealing with the matter of policy violations: I will report this at AN/I. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

There, better. Other version deleted and this article moved over there, so the content and history of the article is saved, fulfilling the necessary copyright requirements. Silverseren 19:10, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

No, not 'better'. This is still under active discussion, and no consensus for the move has yet been agreed. I suggest you self-revert, and then wait for others to comment. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

So, if I self-revert, will you self-revert Lewontin's Argument, as there isn't consensus for that move? Silverseren 19:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Though I guess it would be Maunus self-reverting, but still. Silverseren 19:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren, you have just received a logged ArbCom warning from SarekofVulcan. In addition, as SarekofVulcan pointed out on ANI, you already placed a deceptive template on the speedily deleted article with the same title, created by SlowhandBlues. You should unconditionally self-revert at this point. Mathsci (talk) 19:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

...deceptive template? I have no idea what you're talking about, nor why I was "warned", as there is no discretionary sanctions active on this article. I don't see it at the top of the talk page, nor the warning when I edit the page. Silverseren 19:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The current title ("Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper)") is unacceptable. can we change it, please? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure. What title? I'm fine with Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy, as that's the title of the paper. Silverseren 19:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

We have already had this discussion above. I agreed with Guettarda's suggestion: "Human genetic diversity" is a suitably neutral and accurate title. We can add redirects from all other possible titles containing Lewontin's name (Lewontin's fallacy, Lewontin's argument, etc). Mathsci (talk) 20:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with that too, since it is the beginning of the title. Silverseren 20:12, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not fine with Silver seren's proposal. The article cannot possibly discuss Edwards' paper without discussing Lewontin first. It needs to discuss both viewpoints, in a neutral manner, and with a neutral title, in the proper historical context, and without implying that Edwards was 'right' - neither were, as more recent research shows. Anything else would be a breach of WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:11, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

As i've said multiple times, Lewontin's paper is also notable and should have a separate article. Then, a better outlined background section can be included in this article with a main page link to the one on Lewontin's paper. And of course neither should be explained as right, but I don't think the article currently does. Silverseren 20:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Edwards' mathematical note only makes sense once a full explanation of Lewontin's argument is presented. Neither of them takes up much space, as at present. Mathsci (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I would also add that an article on Lewontin's paper wouldn't just be his argument, it would also include original reception to the idea when proposed, and all of the counterarguments, including Edwards', that were developed in response to it, also what sort of impact Lewontin's paper had on his field. Things like that. If you feel that a complete explanation of Lewontin's argument is necessary in this article, fine, but that doesn't mean Lewontin's paper shouldn't also have its own article. And the coverage of Lewontin's argument in this article should be as brief as possible, while being complete. I mean, the sources are able to keep the explanation fairly brief, so it shouldn't be that difficult. Silverseren 20:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, so Human genetic diversity, then. Anyone object to that? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

An article of that title will be fine, as far as I can see. Of course, neither Lewontin nor Edwards will play a major role in such an article, if it is to cover the topic properly. The subject goes back a long way, and is very much a still-evolving (and contentious) field. I suspect that this might be controversial though. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless i'm very confused about what is being suggested, I thought that that title was meant to be the beginning of the paper in an article about the paper? The point was to remove the Lewontin's fallacy bit from the title to make it more neutral, not to make it an article about the diversity in human genetics. It is still supposed to be about the paper. William, if you're going with Andy's understanding of the title, then I do object. Silverseren 21:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) On hearing ATG's objection, I noticed that Human genetic variation is already a fully fledged article, in which Lewontin is mentioned in exactly this context. My modified suggestion therefore is to merge a condensed version of the current article into that article, creating redirects to the relevant segment of that article. How does that sound? Mathsci (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Strong oppose Just because we have an article on an overall topic doesn't mean that we can't have separate article on influential topics related to the overall subject. It already links to this article anyways. Silverseren 21:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

It is the appropriate context and there seems to be little intellectual or scientific justification for doing otherwise. As for "influential", the paper of Edwards, although in the references of Human genetic variation, is not even mentioned in the text. Mathsci (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Er, 'influential'? In what way? As our article notes, Jeffry B. Mitton had made the same objection to Lweontin some time before Edwards paper was published. Can you find a source that actually says the paper was 'influential'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The fact that the paper is discussed in general college textbooks and handbooks in human genetics, not to mention that it is discussed and approved of by Richard Dawkins, leading evolutionary biologist. That's why it can be considered influential and, most certainly, notable. We discussed this in the AfD. Users found that the paper was notable and should be kept as an article, they did not find to delete or to merge somewhere else. Silverseren 21:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure that it our business at this stage to make comments about how "influential" Lewontin or Edwards have been. Silver seren has decided that we have to take the AfD as a point of reference, but he has been told by User:Causa sui that that is not how things work. I think for writing we use WP:RS. The book of Dawkins fails that. But for example the book "Human evolutionary biology" published by Cambridge University Press (2010) is a WP:RS. There is chapter by the biological anthropologist Jonathan Marks entitled "Ten Facts about Human Variation" which explains in detail the relevance of the work of Lewontin and of Edwards. This is the kind of source to use and there others like it. Marks, like other commentators, points out that Lewontin's observations have been verified empirically and are not disqualified by Edwards' statistical argument. Guided by Marks' article and its title, it seems wholly appropriate to include this material briefly in the article Human genetic variation. The discussion on wikipedia should not be very different from what is found in that textbook or similar sources. Mathsci (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Likewise the Chapter on "Human Genetic Diversity and its History" in the 2007 Wiley Handbook on statistcal genetics discusses the observations of Lewontin, which were justified by at least 3 different statistical approaches after Edwards' critique was published. Mathsci (talk) 23:02, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I never stated that either Lewontin or Edwards are right in the conclusions proposed in their papers. I don't think this is a discussion about that. This is a discussion about having articles on the papers themselves. Silverseren 23:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

For writing wikipedia articles we rely on secondary sources like these which discuss Lewontin and Edwards together in context. There is no need to make spurious claims about "influential" papers. In both cases above, Lewontin's observations are described precisely in a historical context; Edwards' critique of Lewontin's original analysis is mentioned; and then, even in the light of that critique, it is explained that Lewontin's observations still hold true. There is no reason for wikipedia to give a different impression. There are more references of this kind. Mathsci (talk) 23:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay? You have yet to explain why we shouldn't have articles on both of the papers. You're discussing how the information in the articles should be presented, which is a content issue. I don't see how it applies to this discussion. Have you looked at this source yet and the entire Race and Mathematics section? Silverseren 23:28, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Editorial Integrity

Just for the record my personal opinion is that this paper is a hot, steamy pile o rubble. All the findings mean is that the alleles are in a different sequence, but since the execution of the data(copying to rna, followed by protein forming) is not done in order it doesn't matter anyway. 6% is still 6% no matter where it's located. But that's just me. ³ SlowhandBlues¯ 00:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC) confirmed sock of banned Bentheadvocate (talk · contribs)

Agreed. The theory is kinda silly. There's some merit to it in a very general sense, but that's all. Silverseren 00:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

What? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

We're kinda discussing WP:NOTAFORUM stuff, in that we're giving our personal opinion about Edwards' actual theory in the paper. It has no real relation to the above discussion though. Silverseren 00:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you either (a) stick to WP:NOTAFORUM then, or (b) try to give the impression that you understand the topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

~~wait in what way are we not understanding the topic?--³ SlowhandBlues¯ 13:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)~~

Obvious sock was obvious... AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Page move

Since the page has been moved, does that mean we have consensus that the article is about Edwards' paper? We need to clarify that, so that we can move forward to AFD. Guettarda (talk) 01:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

So you're going to do another AfD? And what exactly are you going to say is different from what the article was like in the last AfD? The page was moved and the first sentence rearranged. Other than that, the content is exactly the same as it was in the last AfD when it closed as Keep. Silverseren 02:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

No, no such consensus exists outside of Silverseren's wishful thinking.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Move/Merge

It has been proposed in this section that Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy be renamed and moved to Lewontin's argument.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy (scientific paper) → Lewontin's argument – The article is currently located at a location supported only by SilverSeren and (perhaps?) Colonel Warden - a rather large number of editors seem to prefer another location and content of this article. I suggest we either locate it at Lewontin's argument and treat the entire issue in a single location, or that we merge it into Race_and_genetics#Lewontin.27s_argument_and_criticism. I do not support a merge into Human genetic variation since Lewontin's and Edward's arguments are about the degree to which genetic analyses support the validity of racial categories - human genetic variation is a very large topic that is not primarily concerned with racial differences, but everything from genetic illnesses to haplogroups. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Since one editor does not feel that he has been given reasons for the proposal here goes: 1. Edwards paper is not notable independently of Lewontin's argument and the general debate - the fact that it is mentioned and cited in some textbooks does not prove independent notability. 2. The article is only one side in a larger argument splitting it from the rest of the argument would be in clear conflict with WP:NPOV and WP:CONTENTFORK. 3. PResenting the article out of context is unhelpful to the readership who have no chance of understanding the significance of the topic unless put into its proper context. All these reasons were presented and argued at length by a majority of editors at the recent AFd - so it is surprising that someone who participated in the afd are not aware of the reasons.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

So, essentially, this is AfD part 2? You disliked the fact that it closed as Keep, so you're trying to get it removed or changed one way or the other through this proposal. Silverseren 01:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

The difficulty is that those who !voted 'keep' at the AfD have since done nothing to resolve the problem that almost everyone acknowledged - that the existing article and title had a POV problem. Unless you are going to suggest that an AfD is a binding agreement to retain an existing article in a policy-contravening state, something needs to be done. Any useful suggestions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I...already did it. The reasons for the requests for name change was because just being "Lewontin's Fallacy" could be misconstrued in a number of ways. Therefore, I moved the title to the full paper name and specifically pointed out in the title that it is a scientific paper. Thus, the issues with the name are fixed. Silverseren 01:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

So you think changing the title to a name that Edwards used to imply that Lewontin's argument was fallacious is NPOV? Yeah, right... The paper might well be 'scientific', but the title isn't. Or at least, it certainly isn't neutral. Anyway, you've not offered any suggestions as to how an article on one side of an argument can maintain NPOV. It can't, without either extending the remit of the article well beyond that of the implied remit, or engaging in editorialising to finish with a postscript that says that so far the issue is unresolved, and neither Lewontin nor Edwards are 'right', which is an accurate description of the current situation as I understand it - but I can't provide evidence for this without discussing events outside the narrow article topic, as presently defined. Your interpretation of the consensus at the AfD (which I dispute) would imply a !Vote to breach policy - which an AfD cannot do. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

support as proposer.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Support the proposed merge, though the proposed section title looks a little clunky: how about 'Lewontin vs. Edwards: a debate on statistics'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose both, obviously. And why are you having a Move/Merge discussion? I don't think there's a proper template for that, because you don't do it. You have not presented a single reason why there shouldn't be an article on this paper or why it should be merged. Thus, this should be closed, as no reasoning has been presented by the nominator or by Andy. Silverseren 02:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The reasoning is quite simple: nobody is able to explain how we can discuss the Lewontin/Edwards debate in a NPOV manner while only presenting one side of the argument. Forking the article into two is not only against policy, but illogical, since the debate only makes sense in a broader context. So unless you can suggest what a 'single' article on the topic should be called, and how it can maintain NPOV, a merge seems to me at least to be the only viable solution. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I think a an article on the paper should use the full name of the paper. That's why I moved it to the full name, since people has issues with it just being Lewontin's Fallacy, as that could be misconstrued in a number of ways. The current title reflects the subject exactly, as being about a research paper. Silverseren 03:47, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

And how can an article that only discusses one side of a debate preserve NPOV? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not discussing a debate, it's discussing the paper. And it has a background section anyways that explains Lewontin's original argument. Nothing in this article is saying that Edwards' paper is authoritatively correct. It quotes important people who have an opinion on it, but that's all. What exactly is POV about the article? Silverseren 04:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

That it 'quotes (some) important people that have an opinion about it'? Why exactly is this single paper in an ongoing debate so worthy of attention? It isn't the last word, and it wasn't even the first place the objections raised by Edwards were aired. The paper is meaningless without context, and implying it has a special significance by giving it an article all to itself gives it more weight than it deserves. Can you give other examples of encyclopaedias that treat single scientific papers in a similar manner? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

We make articles based on the sources available for subjects and the attention given to them. In this case, numerous sources have specifically discussed the paper in question, with it even being included in college textbooks. Are you seriously suggesting we should be removing articles such as Molecular Structure of Nucleic Acids: A Structure for Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid or Sickle Cell Anemia, a Molecular Disease? Silverseren 04:54, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment - There's nothing at all wrong with having a move/merge discussion, regardless of the non-existence of a template for that. Editors are encouraged to set up discussions that are appropriate to the situation, and custom templates are not required. If there's something to discuss, then there's no reason to close the discussion. We don't do purely procedural things like that. The point is to get the information to the right title, whatever that involves. -GTBacchus 03:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
- The only reason we've got a template for move discussions and not for move/merge discussions is that the latter happens less often, and nobody's seen fit to make a template for it. Such a template would be welcome, though. -GTBacchus 03:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
  - The issue is that it's trying to combine two completely different procedures. What happens if the discussion ends with half saying move the title and half saying merge the article somewhere? Do we go to no consensus and not do either of those things or do just one of them? How do you stay neutral in which one you do? The thing is that moving an article title and merging an article should not be presented together, because they are asking for completely different things. Silverseren 03:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
    - It's really not a problem. If there's split opinion on whether to merge or move, we try to get more people to the discussion and find a consensus. Misplaced Pages is not procedure-bound, and that's a Good Thing. It's best to just explain what you think should happen with the article and why, otherwise we end up having these meta-discussions about procedure that don't help anything. I'm pretty sure I've seen move/merge proposals in the past and there was no problem. Just give it a chance and see what happens. We're all intelligent people who aren't going to be stuck because of some procedural hangup. Trust me, it's okay.
      Do you think the article should be moved, or merged, or neither? -GTBacchus 03:57, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Support merge The article suggested by Maunus is the most appropriate one suggested so far. It is completely in line with the way these matters are discussed in the recent secondary sources I have explicitly cited above. Mathsci (talk) 07:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

It's already discussed there anyways. You haven't presented any reason why this article should be merged when the content is fine. There should really be some rule about Delete/Merge voters in an AfD that ends in Keep pushing through a "consensus" merge anyways. :/ Silverseren 07:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren, what you write is incorrect. Above I have carefully given recent excellent secondary sources which discuss both articles in their proper context (race, genetics, human genetic variation) and have suggested consequently that merging the content to a general article is the best way forward. I am sorry, but I am not going to repeat myself. Please look further up the page, by scrolling if necessary (22:30 and 23:02 on 1 August). Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge to the Race and genetics article, as proposed by Maunus. How on Earth did this one ever get kept at AfD? The paper has been cited just 43 times in Web of Science. If that makes it notable, we'll have our work cut out for us (I myself have -as of today- 23 papers with 43 citations or more), there are hundreds of thousands of papers with this kind of citation counts. It's a reliable source though, so it can be used to source some criticism in an article where Lewontin's ideas are mentioned, but a standalone article this frankly is absolutely ridiculous. --Crusio (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Because notability for papers is not based on their citations anywhere, but on the GNG. The reason it was kept was because of the references available that discussed the paper itself, such as this, this, this, and this. Silverseren 23:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you actually bother to read the sources you find on Google, Silver seren? At least two of the four sources you provide are actually arguing against Edwards' position in the debate - not that a single mention in passing in a book is particular evidence for notability anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Arguing against Edwards' has nothing to do with coverage of his paper, it is coverage nonetheless. And, if you actually looked at the sources, you'd see that they are definitely not passing mentions. Silverseren 00:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Personally I would guess that Crusio, a senior academic researcher in France, is very well placed to evaluate academic articles and books. "Google books" is never used to make such an evaluation. Mathsci (talk) 23:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

A reseracher working within the field of human genetics in fact - although of course we don't like experts here at wikipedia.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

He would be perfect for finding proper references and sources on broad spectrum subjects, such as the Race and genetics article, but when dealing with articles about other scientists in the field (and their papers), it's a bit more iffy, as he would clearly be involved in his opinion and it is impossible to know if he is neutral in that regard or not. Silverseren 00:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

But, as far as wikipedia is concerned, as an anonymous user you have no presumed expertise at all. Your opinions, such as those stated above, are even less than "iffy". They are without any value whatsoever, not so? Mathsci (talk) 01:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, just like every other editor. Anyway his argument is based on the number of citations not on his personal opinion.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

But number of citations has nothing to do with notability in this case. It's not like we have an h-index for papers or anything like that. Silverseren 01:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I am sure you are more than aware that that is not how things work in the academic world. Mathsci (talk) 01:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Um, I am aware of notability works on Misplaced Pages, which is all that matters. As far as I know, there is no specific guidelines for articles on paper, so you default to the GNG, which has to do with coverage in reliable sources, not with number of citations (or lack thereof). Silverseren 01:21, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

"There is no specific guidelines for articles on paper"? Really, so Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) is a figment of my imagination, is it? And it doesn't say in relation to "Academic and technical books" that "...how widely the book is cited by other academic publications..." is of relevance to notability? Or are you suggesting that since 'a paper' isn't 'a book', we can ignore this? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Papers do not fall under WP:NBOOK, as was already discussed in the AfD. Papers cannot meet any of the criteria under that, such as literary awards, being a subject of instruction in schools, to have been made into a film, ect. Therefore, there are no specific guidelines for papers, so like we do for every other subject that doesn't have a guideline, we default to the GNG, which is met through the sources I have repeated multiple times (which were held up in the AfD). Silverseren 01:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true. And why do you think that citations in other academic publications (presumably including papers?) were seen as of relevance when discussing the notability of academic books? Do you think that policy came out of thin air, or that it had a purpose? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Being cited in the media and by other publications is completely different from how papers are cited (from other scientists doing similar research). And, if you're going to go that route, then you would also have to include such citations within other works, like the fact that the paper was cited in a college textbook, by Richard Dawkins, and in numerous other places outside of other papers by scientists. Silverseren 02:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The fact is that we have a criterion in a closely-related context that states that "citations in other academic publications" are relevant to notability, and you are ignoring this, because it doesn't suit your purposes. I'll ask again: why do you think that citations in other academic publications were seen as of relevance when discussing the notability of academic books? Either explain your reasoning, or concede that it should be seen as relevant here too. AndyTheGrump (talk)

Then my response would be, per that section, citations is one of the suggested basis for establishing notability. Having a large number of citations can establish notability, but the lack of them doesn't do the opposite. Having a large number of citations adds to notability, but there are also other things that create notability, such as coverage in reliable sources. The reason why the citations don't apply is because, if they do not add to the notability, then they are irrelevant for the discussion of notability. Silverseren 04:27, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

So why exactly are non-academic 'reliable sources' more relevant (or, more to the point, more 'reliable') regarding an article about an academic paper than academic ones? Is it perhaps because the paper isn't actually of any great academic notability at all, but instead happens to have a catchy title that POV-pushers have latched on to (don't bother to answer this - the answer is self-evidently 'yes', as you have already demonstrated). Basically you are arguing that a debate about the notability of a scientific paper has to ignore its scientific significance. An interesting argument, but one that won't get you far. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:06, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Don't merge. There are two issues: Notability and NPOV. The AFD linked at the top of this page reached a consensus that the topic of the article is notable, though neutrality was maybe still an issue (I know the article had a different title during the AFD, but the content was the same). The post linked below at the NPOV noticeboard doesn't address the issue of notability, but both uninvolved editors who commented there agreed that its title is NPOV. Quoting Brmull: "It can't be notable enough to have its own article but not notable enough to have the full name of the paper as its title." So the outcome of the AFD is that it is notable, and the outcome of the NPOVN thread seems to be that there's no NPOV issue for the article to have the same title as the paper. Therefore I see no grounds for a merge.Boothello (talk) 01:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course the new title is neutral - the contents however aren't, and cannot be unless treated with the rest of the argument. If we treat the entire argument at the article on Edwards paper then what are we going to write in the article on LEwontiin's paper? If not exactly the same? Following the approach of having article for every article in the debate with sufficient citings we are going to end up having an article on Lewontins original article that if both articles are neutral is going to repeat this one in every detail. That is silly. The arguments should be treated together and not repeated in separate article about all of the papers in which related arguments have been advanced. This is a simple question of editorial logics.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:35, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you explain how exactly the article's content is non-neutral? Lewontin's views are presented in the background section and then Edwards' views are represented in the next section. Neither viewpoint is presented as being correct, they are merely discussed. The mere fact that the article is discussing a paper that is an argument does not make it non-neutral. What exact content, sentences and such, are non-neutral in the article? Because neutrality is a content issue that should be fixed, it is not a merge issue. Silverseren 01:45, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Merges are editorial decision about how best to organize content - we don't need to repeat the same content in article's about Lewontin's paper and in Edwards' paper. Now the NPOV issue is this: the article is currently presenting the discussion as if Edwards paper is more important than Lewontin's which by all accounts it isn't. It also does not present any of the arguments against Edwards description of Lewontin's argument as a fallacy. It also does not present the most current mainstream views about the implications of allele frequency analysis on the population level for the concept of race. It gives undue weight to Edwards particular view in the context of the general debate. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

It should direct the reader to the other articles that have that information, that is the purpose of the Main article link template, after all. Having an article on Edwards' paper doesn't mean it is more important than Lewontin's. Lewontin's paper should have an article as well, arguably a fairly longer one. We don't assign "importance" to article topics and remove the less important ones. We cover all subjects in different articles. And an article on Edwards' paper does not give undue weight to his paper, that doesn't even make any sense. Your only argument seems to be that because there aren't articles on the other views, this one is given weight, but that's not how it works. That just means all of the other views need articles as well, if they don't currently have them. Silverseren 02:04, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

You are either failing to comprehend or deliberately misrepresenting my arguments. I direct readers who are interested in my actual arguments to read my statements above. And your statements about what "we do" are wrong - wikipedia works by making editorial decisions about how best to present topics to readers. This discussion is the way fo making such decisions.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

AfD is a method of making such decisions and a decision was made. And a group of the people who voted Delete in the AfD coming around to get rid of the article through another method (with Crusio and Boothello being the only independent people at this point, making it 1 to 1) is in its own way another method of Wikilawyering the processes to get rid of an article you dislike. Your statements elsewhere have shown that you have a personal dislike for the opinions presented in the article subject and this seems to be true for the other AfD Delete people involved in this discussion. You're not treating this neutrally, you're treating it as a method to get rid of and otherwise minimize a scientific viewpoint you disagree with. Silverseren 02:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for assuming good faith and not arguing ad hominem. Perhaps you are just here arguing against me in a topic you clearly know little about out of grudge for the time I warned you for making ad hom,inem generalizations about Jewish editors... I on the other hand have been involved in this topic for quite awhile and have been able to get a long and argue constructively even with most of the people with whom I disagreed. I also happen to know something about this topic, due to having read widely about it and I also happen to have an interest in making wikipedia present this topic in a way that allots weight to viewpoints according to their prominence in relevant literature. You are arguing ad nauseam against a majority of editors who are better read in this topic than you - you do not listen to arguments, but rather distort other editors arguments. This is disrruptive editing the kind for which people have been topic banned. As an editor who has recently been warned about the discretionary sanctions for this topic you would do well to keep this in mindm, and adopt a more collaborative stance. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

You bringing up the mishandled discretionary sanctions warning and the Noleander thing is also an ad hominem, and I don't see any collaboration going on at all. You want to remove this article, I want to keep it. Where exactly do you collaborate on that? And you being an "expert" on the topic doesn't mean that you or anyone else gets to decide based on your opinion what should be kept or removed. The improvement that experts bring to the project is their ability to find references that are unavailable to the general public and to make articles on subject that would be obscure for anyone else who isn't an expert. The downside to experts being a part of the project is that they often bring their strong POV, as all experts have a POV in relation to their field, there are things they believe in terms of their subject and things they don't believe, which often leads to extensive warring between different bodies of experts, essentially bringing the academic camp wars straight onto Misplaced Pages. It's for this reason that the R&I sanctions were ever put into place, because of this warring, and I really don't think the benefits experts bring to the project is worth the downsides in the long run if they can't remain neutral. Silverseren 02:52, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Because amaterus like you are always neutral and never have strong political opinions or general preconceived ideas. Experts' opinions are based on knowledge. Yours is based on ignorance. And Yes I am responding in kind to your repeated ad hominem attacks and baiting. So report me. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:58, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Silver seren seems to have a misunderstanding of how wikipedia is written. More significant material gets proportionately more coverage, whereas peripheral material gets less. Mathsci (talk) 02:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

And this article subject has gotten enough coverage to be considered notable, that is what the AfD proved. Silverseren 02:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The AfD proved nothing, no AfD does. And the article then was about the catchphrase "Lewontin's fallacy", not the paper. Mathsci (talk) 02:21, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

So you're saying that every result that every AfD ever done doesn't mean anything, since they "proves nothing" And the prior version of the article was still about the paper. The entire article was the exact same, other than the lede saying Lewontin's fallacy. It was quite clearly about a paper. Silverseren 02:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The Afd was about the notability of the topic "Lewontin's fallacy" not about the contents of the article - someone kept saying at the AfD that content issues should be discussed elsewhere. That is what we are doing now.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Support or at best merge to Race and genetics. The present title itself is POV.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Per the NPOV noticeboard discussion, no, it is not, so you may wish to reword your argument, as the title of a paper exterior to Misplaced Pages can't be POV, as POV is an internal writing construct in relation to Misplaced Pages. Silverseren 02:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

"The title of a paper exterior to Misplaced Pages can't be POV"? That is a dubious proposition at best - but in any case, what we are debating is whether using an article cherry-picked for its name (it actually doesn't seem to have a great deal of academic significance) to provide a title is neutral. Ah, but you don't think that academic significance is, er, significant...AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:40, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

There are two kinds of significance when dealing with these types of articles that can determine their notability. There is academic significance, which is one way, and there is also significance given to the subject outside of academic circles, which is reflected in the sources in this article, which show that the paper in question has been considered significant by a number of people (including some academics). Silverseren 03:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I actually agree with SilverSeren on the NPOV issue (not the notability issue)- NPOV doesn't extend to titles, for example we have an article called "Death to the French". As long as the topic is notable and the title is the common name and the article describes the topic in a neutral manner there are no NPOV concerns. Here however we have pov concerns because for the article to describe the topic neutrally it would have to include a higher proportion of information about Lewontin's paper than about Edwards'. That is the problem here - not the title per se.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 03:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

NPOV Noticeboard discussion

Noticeboard discussion can be found here. Silverseren 04:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

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