Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:38, 6 September 2011

WARNING In accordance with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions, editors of this article are restricted to 1 revert per 24 hours. Violations of this restriction will lead to blocks.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Error: Target page was not specified with to.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Israel Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Palestine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Turkey Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. International relations Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Maritime / National / Balkan / European / Middle East This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Maritime warfare task force National militaries task force Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present) European military history task force Middle Eastern military history task force

A news item involving Gaza flotilla raid was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 31 May 2010.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Nir Hasson (August 18, 2010). "The right's latest weapon: 'Zionist editing' on Misplaced Pages". Haaretz.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Robert Mackey (August 20, 2010). "Misplaced Pages Editing for Zionists". New York Times.

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Problematic sentence

There is this one-line paragraph:

According to some accounts by passengers, IDF soldiers denied medical treatment to several wounded activists who died shortly thereafter.

I've looked through the sources, and it's not clear to me what this refers to, most accounts seem to be about people being hindered in the midst of battle. The way it is now, it reads as if IDF was actively letting people die of the wounds in the aftermath, which again seems NPOV. The references point to various eye-witness accounts that are rather chaotic. I'd like this to be more explicit in what it describes, or removed. Ketil (talk) 12:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

More explicit?

Yes. Or detailed, precise. I understand that some would prefer blanket statements that confer one side as evil and the other as good, but I'd like to have a more specific information, each fact appropriately sourced. Ketil (talk) 04:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Are eyewitness accounts not good enough for you?

The UN report into the incident states that injured activists were made to wait up to 3 hours for treatment, while being tied up as well.From the UN report,

130. The flotilla organisers and other passengers engaged in efforts to request the Israeli forces to provide the necessary treatment to the wounded persons. One organiser used the ship’s intercom to request assistance in Hebrew and persons also communicated directly through the cabin windows or by placing signs, written in English and Hebrew, in the ship’s windows. These attempts proved unsuccessful and it was up to two hours before the Israeli forces took out the wounded persons. However, the wounded were required to leave the cabins themselves, or taken outside in a rough manner, without apparent concern for the nature of their injuries and the discomfort that this would cause. 131. The wounded passengers were taken to the front of the top deck where they joined other passengers injured during the operation on the top deck and where the bodies of persons killed during the operation had been left. Wounded passengers, including persons seriously injured with live fire wounds, were handcuffed with plastic cord handcuffs, which were often tied very tightly causing some of the injured to lose sensitivity in their hands. These plastic handcuffs cannot be loosened without being cut off, but can be tightened. Many were also stripped naked and then had to wait some time, possibly as long as twothree hours, before receiving medical treatment. Medical treatment was given to a number of wounded persons on the top deck by the Israeli forces.Owain the 1st (talk) 13:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Where does that say that anyone died of their wounds shortly after being denied medical treatment? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Here you go, from one of the links on the line that he is complaining about.From Knesset member

Zuabi said that naval boats surrounded the Mavi Marmara and fired on it before soldiers abseiled aboard from a helicopter. She went below to the ship's hold and said that, within minutes, two dead passengers were brought inside, followed by two more who had been seriously wounded.

soldiers refused her requests for medical assistance for the injured passengers, who died shortly after.Owain the 1st (talk) 13:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So the article should say "According to Zuabi, two wounded passengers died shortly after soldiers refused her request for medical assistance". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Well no as another link on the end of that sentence in Turkish has evidence from a crew member I believe stating that due to the Israelis not giving medical aid more people died.You have read thru the links before commenting right?Going on the links it looks like the statement that is being complained about is in order and has sources to back it up, therefore there is no reason to change it or remove it Owain the 1st (talk) 14:55, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't read Turkish. Could you translate the relevant passages? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Well there you go then, I rest my case.Try google translate.Thanks. Owain the 1st (talk) 20:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what case you're resting. While google translate might be good for getting the gist of things, I doubt it should be used for an encyclopedia. I gather you don't know Turkish either? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I rest my case because obviously I have done the research into it.Go read the Turkish official inquiry into the incident, it says and I quote:Numerous testimonies also indicate that at least three of the deaths occurred because Israeli soldiers denied timely medical attention to the wounded. So we have numerous statements that state that the Israelis failed to treat the wounded and some died.Official Turkish Inquiry Owain the 1st (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

So we can attribute it to the Turkish Inquiry, which presumably includes Zuabi's opinion as well. Nice web site there, by the way. Not the sort of link I'm inclined to follow. I don't like giving traffic to hate sites. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Up to you if you do not want to read the report.I am linking to the report not to any so called hate site.It seems to be the only place that has the report that I could find.I will put the link in the article tomorrow and from that site unless you can provide another source. Owain the 1st (talk) 22:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

That's not a reliable source for official reports. If you put a link to that site in the article, I'll remove it. If this is an official report, you should be able to find it somewhere that meets RS criteria. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously it is the official report.You can do what you want.I see nothing wrong with it.Guess you will have to explain yourself when you delete it and if you continue to delete it then I will report you.Anyway as it happens I have just found another link for it here.Funny how this report does not have a page of its own on this site, I will make one and link it to the Gaza flotilla article.Owain the 1st (talk) 23:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)See WP:BURDEN. That site is only reliable for its opinions. "Obviously it is the official report" is not exactly a policy compliant reason to include it.

The new site you just posted doesn't load for me. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:16, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Loads fine here.I will be posting that tomorrow.It comes from this site http://www.turkishweekly.net/ Owain the 1st (talk) 23:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I've been able to access the PDF at this URL without any problems.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

For those that can't access it, the passage from that PDF that appears relevant to this issue is:

"Numerous testimonies also indicate that at least three of the deaths occurred because Israeli soldiers denied timely medical attention to the wounded. Sümeyye Ertekin and Halis Akıncı testified that the Israeli soldiers hit those doctors trying to help the wounded with the butts of their rifles. Edda Manga says 'They did not allow the medics to treat the people; the doctors and nurses were forced at gunpoint to leave the wounded.' Ali Buhamd‘s testimony contains a grim mixture of some of the points made above: 'I saw a soldier shooting a wounded Turk in the head. There was another Turk asking for help, but he bled to death.'"

Those sentence reference a half dozen eye witness testimonies in the footnotes, and this article. ← George 00:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Does it look like the official report from a reliable source? It still doesn't load for me for some reason. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It is the official report and the source looks fine.Report on the Israeli Attack on the Humanitarian Aid Convoy to Gaza Owain the 1st (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I was asking George. I've seen what you consider a reliable source. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:30, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

No need to be so nasty.I believe it is obvious that George thinks it is fine otherwise he would have said something.Anyway I have added the link to the article.Have fun.Owain the 1st (talk) 10:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It's 117 pages long, with 375 footnotes, and lists 45 conclusions at the end. It lists the Turkish National Commission of Inquiry as the author of the report, and it does read like something put together by a Turkish commission tasked with submitting a report to the UN. The Turkish Weekly website looks like an ordinary news journal (including national and international news reports, op-eds, and book reviews), so my inclination would be to say that it's reliable. Obviously that doesn't mean it's neutral or impartial, but probably reliable by Misplaced Pages's standards for Turkish viewpoints, claims, and witness accounts of the incident. ← George 18:28, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me how eyewitness accounts from the flotilla can be considered RS? If the political agenda was to runa blockade that they knew would be stopped. And running a blockade makes you a combatant. Then how could a combatant be considered to give any reliable information of what actually happened. Or would it be more likely that they would give an account of what they want people to believe happened? Were the testimonies in these articles taken in interviews? Or were they taken in courts under the threat of perjury? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.60.183.188 (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Where are they being used as RS? Your own analysis that "running a blockade makes you a combatant" aside, keep in mind that there's a difference between saying someone said something happend, and saying that something happened as fact. ← George 20:06, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

My point being is that the entire two paragraphs in the injuries sections that start with "according to" should be removed. Both the IDF POV and the Passenger's POV. They aren't relevent, nor can either side be considered RS or NPOV. All this adds to the article is a bunch of unverifiable speculation, or "accounts" from both parties "he said, she said" if you will.. I would like to direct you to Misplaced Pages:Notability (events) and then ask yourself does this section really add to the article, and does it help resolve the neutrality of it? I don't think it does. Both paragraphs are Highly POV to opposite ends, and at the end of the day do not actually add to what actually happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.60.183.188 (talk) 20:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Photos prove Mavi Marmara passengers had guns

Article claims IDF has pictures proving there were guns on board. And here they are. One oven shows Haneen Zoabi to be a liar. Again and again, Israel is vindicated. I leave it up to the prevailing editors to decide how to incorporate this development, unless my help is wanted. --Metallurgist (talk) 02:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

If those are the pictures that the newspapers used for reporting in that way I think we might have a good case for calling into question their RS status. It looks like the images were taken from cctv, I doubt that a camera man managed to stand that still for that long, I would prefer that they granted access to the full sequence for that period. It looks like the person alleged to be Zaobi is coming down a set of stairs 1 minute and 8 seconds after a guy has passed through the frame. Is that guy passing through holding a rather oddly proportioned firearm in his left hand? My immediate reaction is that the proportions are off, is his thumb insanely long or the rest of his fingers absurdly short? As for the guy with the beard, it seems like he could be holding a range of things. Anyway - unless there are more pictures available I am pretty disappointed with the media at not being more critical in their assessments. un☯mi 05:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Rewrites to mature articles

Hi, all. In this series of edits, Reenem just performed what effectively amounts to a rewrite of much of the article, moving it substantially in a more pro-IDF direction. It's my opinion that making such sweeping changes to a highly-contested but relatively mature article is just unproductive, in that it presents a fait accompli of too much change to reasonably discuss. I could revert that, and then just as easily go through and make sweeping changes to move the article in a pro-Flotilla direction, which wouldn't stick, either. So I'm just going to revert his changes, and suggest that he either make them in much smaller increments over a much longer period, or that he try to gain consensus for all of them in a body, here, on talk.  – OhioStandard (talk) 06:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a work in progress, there is no such thing as a "mature article" where edits are not allowed. At Misplaced Pages we encourage bold edits as long as they are based on reliable sources. Specifically, did you see anything factually wrong or unreliably sourced in the edits? The minimum you could do is to give a solid explanation for why you are reverting. It's unfair to the person who obviously spent time and effort. Marokwitz (talk) 06:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

At 6:32, 9 June 2011 UTC, Marokwitz restored Reneem's hour and 1/2 worth of changes, in this edit. - Ohiostandard, 21:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that instead of reverting the text could be re-worked to a mode neutral tone. Unfortunately I personally don't currently have the time to go through this article :( I am, by the way, still of the opinion that what individual "soldiers" did doesn't need to be recounted in this article. --Dailycare (talk) 15:16, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

After Marokwitz's restoration, the next two-hours of new edits were again made by Reneem, in this series, beginning at 16:51, 9 June 2011. - Ohiostandard, 21:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Marokwitz is correct that Misplaced Pages normally encourages bold edits, but he neglects to consider that "be bold" only works in very controversial articles if the usual bold-revert-discuss cycle is respected. Reneem was very bold, I reverted, and Marokwitz reinstated, after just eleven minutes.

Reneem's 3 and 1/2 hours of changes spanned at least 17 edits, with no edit summaries. If you'll look at that diff, with many passages moved around, and with all the additions and deletions and re-phrasings, it's nearly impossible to see the "forest" view of the changes introduced into the article. And trying to stepping through each discrete edit via individual diffs is an exercise in frustration, in part because the diffs load so slowly due to article size and because of the lack of edit summaries but especially because one can't maintain the continuity of the cumulative effect of the changes, when moving from diff to diff. Without having the benefit of knowing what his (procedural) intention was for any given subset of saved edits, and with no edit summaries, it would be a huge undertaking to carefully evaluate his changes. It would probably take twice or three times as long as it took to make them.

There's simply no realistic way for editors to evaluate article changes of this magnitude, made so quickly, in other words. The only feasible alternative for an editor opposed to the dramatic shift toward the POV of the Israeli military that has been introduced here is to respond in kind, by simply editing in an entirely unilateral way, to perform a massive rewrite in the other direction. Reneem and Marokwitz's actions here may seem gratifying in the short term, but they're both experienced enough to know how provocative those actions are, and how likely they are to result in a response-in-kind.

I'd suggest that they revert to the relatively stable last version by user Iloveandrea, saved at 15:09, 5 June 2011 UTC, and introduce their desired changes either here, first, or at a moderate-enough pace to allow other editors to actually evaluate them. To refuse to do so is simply to invite either an edit war or, more likely, a rewrite in a direction that they'll dislike every bit as much as supporters of the flotilla's goals dislike the version they've now generated.

I repeat: There's no practical way for editors to scrutinize or evaluate or comment upon such extensive changes made over so brief an interval. I'd invite Reneem and Marokwitz to please reconsider, and conform to wp:brd instead of trying to force the article into the shape they want it in.  – OhioStandard (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I have to second the request by OhioStandard, on looking through the consolidated diff I see a trend towards 'tight prose' regarding reports putting the IDF in an unfavorable light yet expansion on other issues. That said, it seems like there are a number of 'good changes' - which makes it unfortunate that we need to revert, on the other hand we can easily apply those changes again from the starting position.

I would also ask that any sources which are removed are pasted here upon doing so, I also think that we should require that edits display good use of edit summaries (which my edits admittedly did not). un☯mi 22:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I think OhioStandard's idea is good too, provided of course that Reenem is willing to go along. Another idea would be, if extensive edits are made, to make them at once so other editors wouldn't need to click through dozens of them which takes too long. In that case, the "edit summary" can be posted here on the talkpage. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 15:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Please see subsequent sections for current status about this.  – OhioStandard (talk) 10:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Link to videos on captions?

Both the captions of the killed passenger and the Israeli soldiers have no links to the videos in question, which seems weird in the age of Youtube. Is there something I'm missing, or should they be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.159.25 (talk) 01:56, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Removed paragraphs

The following paragraphs were removed, and re-inserted, and removed and reinserted.

On the Mavi Marmara, activists violently resisted Israeli commandos with improvised weapons, and allegedly with live fire, including from guns seized from the Israelis, and temporarily captured three commandos. Israeli commandos responded initially with non-lethal weaponry before resorting to live fire. Israeli MP Hanin Zoabi said that the Israeli Navy started firing five minutes before commandos descended on the flotilla. Nine activists were killed, and dozens of activists and seven Israeli commandos were injured. The five other ships were apprehended relatively peacefully, with activists showing passive resistance that was suppressed with non-lethal force. Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said, on the other five ships, "the people got off without a scratch."

Numerous passengers aboard Challenger 1, Sfendoni, and Free Mediterrenean stated that the soldiers used tasers, plastic bullets, stun grenades, and beat up the passengers. A report in El Pais said that several people from other ships had also been wounded. Free Gaza organizer Huwaida Arraf, who herself was on the Challenger 1, said that some activists on the other five ships were beaten so severely they were hospitalized.

References

1. ^ CNN Eyewitnesses recount Israel flotilla raid. CNN Wire Staff, June 1, 2010
2. Ivan Watson (June 4, 2010). "Autopsies reveal 9 men on Gaza aid boat shot, 5 in head". CNN World. Retrieved June 4, 2010. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
3. "In their own words: Survivor testimonies from Flotilla 31 May 2010". Freegaza.org. Retrieved 2011-04-03.
4. Dorian Jones (June 1, 2010). "Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists". London: Guardian (UK). Retrieved June 2, 2010. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
5. "'We'll be Back – With Bigger Flotillas'". Ipsnews.net. 2010-06-08. Retrieved 2011-04-03.

References with quoted text or translations

1. "Israel asalta la legalidad internacional". El País (in Spanish). Retrieved June 1, 2010. Al menos una parte de la versión del Ministerio de Defensa israelí resulta poco creíble: en las otras naves, donde supuestamente nadie opuso resistencia, también hubo heridos, como pudo comprobar este periódico hablando brevemente con algunos de ellos mientras eran ingresados en camilla en un hospital de Ashkelon. (At least one piece of the account from the Israeli Ministry of Defence is scarcely believable: in the other ships, where nobody apparently offered any physical resistance, there were also some wounded people, as this newspaper was able to verify by briefly talking to some of the passengers when they were being admitted on stretchers to a hospital in Ashkelon.)

I removed them again for the following reason. There are separate sections for raid of each ship. If these deleted paragraphs contain info missing from these sections, then it must be merged into the corresponding sections. Otherwise the article turns into a repetitive mess, if every editor will insert some text wherever he/she likes. Yceren Loq (talk) 15:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment to Yceren Loq: Your second removal of this content violated the 1RR (only one reversion per 24 hours) rule in force for this article. Please be careful to obey this in future, as other editors are doing. To passing admins: I suggest no block in this case as YL has clearly tried to initiate a dialogue... --Mirokado (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment This is the second recent failure to respect WP:BRD while editing this article (not a policy or guideline, but widely followed). The cycle is "bold, revert, discuss", not "bold, revert, ..., revert and start a discussion". --Mirokado (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment This discussion is about a disputed change to the current consensus, which has been determined by the established status quo which included the content. Thus a result of "no consensus" will mean that the content will be restored. Let's try to sort out acceptable changes... --Mirokado (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose removal I will oppose wholesale removal of this content which has several references (including CNN and the Guardian with which I am familiar) and clearly acts as part of the summary for the individual boarding subsections. There are two Citation needed tags dated June 2011 which should be addressed (a month is normally allowed for provision of a reliable reference or other suitable response). I would be quite happy with a shorter, still balanced, summary with some content and references moved to specific subsections. Yceren Loq, since you wish to change the current text, perhaps you can suggest a suitable rearrangement? I will try to look in more detail myself this weekend... --Mirokado (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

• Sorry, I did not take in a consideration taht this is a hot topic. I have no objections to the content per se, only to uncontrolled duplication, which may easily lead to "micro-POV-forks". I understand the argument about summary. However IMHO a summary must be the summary of wikipedia's article, not of everything else in the world uttered. In particular, I don't think Liberman's political utterance (about "without scratch") is a valid part of a summary.Yceren Loq (talk) 22:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
• I will be happy to restore the deleted piece, according to the rule of the game at this page, but I will urge you to reconsider the "summary" part. As a first step, I would suggest to remove the mentioned Liberman's qote, since it is clearly does not deliver a precise fact, but rather a metaphor of the fact that other ships had much less drama. Yceren Loq (talk) 22:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment. A few points to make. (1) I'm too bleary-eyed to verify it right now, but the one ref out of the preceding five that I'm sure is still in the article is the "CNN Autopsies" ref of June 4, 2010. I know that because I had to make this edit to copy the URL from the article to the talk page. (2) As I write this, the above two paragraphs aren't in the article. I didn't restore them because I knew they were under discussion here. (3) If they do go back in, probably the best way to restore them would be to copy-paste from the above, the article has seen many changes have been made in the meantime, since these paragraphs were moved here. Also, I'll try to review this content issue soon, myself, and give my two cents.  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Trying to avert edit war

In the hope of averting a huge edit war over an article that's likely to see a lot more page views in the very near future, I'd like to point out these facts:

• The departure of a second flotilla is imminent, and Israel plans to stop this one, too. More huge spikes in page views likely.

• Much of the article has just been rewritten by Reenem, the most frequent contributor, with 256 edits currently.

• Three users have asked that Reenem's 3 and 1/2 hours of rewriting be reverted and discussed, or at least introduced in smaller increments, so it can be evaluated by others.

• Reenem hasn't responded to that request, but has made a couple of additional article edits. He evidently doesn't much care for talk pages.

• Editors opposed to the strongly pro-Israeli shift of the sweeping changes made have seen no attempt to honor bold-revert-discuss from either Reenem or Marokwitz, another frequent contributor, with 226 edits at present.

• For these reasons I've reverted a second time to the 15:09, 5 June 2011 UTC version by user Iloveandrea that preceded Reenem's changes.

• Unfortunately, this also means that some subsequent changes have been affected. I've put up an "in use" tag on the article to give myself time to try to manually restore all subsequent changes, except where they can't be restored because they concern text that Reenem added in his 3 and 1/2 hour stretch. I'll remove the "in use" asap.

• My plan and goal is only to manually effect the reversion of Reenem's 3 and 1/2 hour stretch that we need to discuss here; I will not be adding any content of my own in this process.

Since doing so will necessarily be a much more complicated process than if the bold-revert-discuss norm had been followed, I'd appreciate it if everyone would look at the edit history and verify that nothing else has been changed. But once that process is complete, can we all please try the "discuss" part, i.e. can we discuss changes made or proposed in a genuinely incremental way rather than by a massive rewrite?  – OhioStandard (talk) 02:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've completed the manual revert of Reenem's (essentially) uninterrupted string of 17 edits; plus his two more made beginning at 21:09, 10 June 2011. I've also created a section below, currently collapsed, that we can use to try to actually review those. I think I "put everything else back" pretty accurately; people might like to double check based on the edit-summary comments I left as I was stepping through that "putting things back" process.  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Sequential discussion of Reenem's 17+2 edits

Suggested protocol

Discussion of one edit in this sequence should not commence until the previous one reaches consensus.  – OhioStandard (talk) 08:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC).

Thanks for preparing this discussion. I have added a section at the end to collect references and started off the first part with a suggestion. I have also limited the collapsed section to the unstarted discussions. --Mirokado (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Following sections will each need to be populated with diffs and timestamps. First one done by Ohiostandard at 08:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC).

Reenem's 1st edit in series

Edit made by Reenem at 4:19, 9 June 18:57, 2011 UTC

• Discussion begins timestamp: --Mirokado (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
• Consensus reached timestamp:
• Consensus outcome:

Discussion

Suggestion, comments I propose the following for this paragraph:

The operation began with an attempt to board the ship from speedboats. As the boats approached, activists fired water hoses at them, and hurled numerous objects including iron pipes, stones and chairs. When the commandos tried boarding the ship, activists cut their ladder with a chainsaw. The boats then turned slightly away from the ship, but remained close. The IDF later found weapons including slingshots and marbles.

I cannot find "pelted" in the refs. I seems unnecessary to provide a complete list of the "junk" which was being thrown and I could not find all the previously mentioned items. Some events seem to have happened later, thus I have removed "The Israelis replied with paintballs and stun grenades. One stun grenade was picked up and thrown back into a boat." (The stun grenades seem to have been associated with the subsequent helicopter deployment.) If anything else needs to be added, please provide precise references, particularly start time or range for a video. I will start updating the video references in the article to make this easier. Obviously, just because I could not find a mention of something does not mean it is not there, but that illustrates the need for precise references for anything that an author regards as particularly significant. --Mirokado (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the exacting review, and thanks especially for noticing the timeline jumble. My only cavil with the text that you propose is with the word "operation". That's what it was from the perspective of the Israeli military, but I'd submit that flotilla participants probably wouldn't use that word, and I dare say that the international perspective would be more likely to call it an incident. Is there some re-wording we can come up with that doesn't describe the whole sequence of events as an "operation"?  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

There seems little point in continuing the analysis of these edits, particularly since the original editor has changed the above quoted paragraph again without commenting here. If the original editor wished to discuss any of these changes, that would be fine. Otherwise let us forget them and move on. --Mirokado (talk) 20:20, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

References

1. IDF timeline part 1 2010, 5:57–6:22.
2. "Death in the Med". BBC. August 20, 2010. Archived from the original on September 1, 2010. Retrieved June 11, 2011. See also possible alternate availability. {{cite news}}: External link in |postscript= (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link)
3. IDF timeline part 2 2010, 7:09.

References with quoted text or translations

Citations

• Flotilla Incident Timeline (English: Part 1 of 2). IDF Spokesperson's Unit YouTube Channel. 15 Jul 2010. Retrieved 11 June 2011. Hebrew commentary with English subtitles.{{cite AV media}}: CS1 maint: postscript (link)
• Flotilla Incident Timeline (English: Part 2 of 2). IDF Spokesperson's Unit YouTube Channel. 15 Jul 2010. Retrieved 11 June 2011. Hebrew commentary with English subtitles.{{cite AV media}}: CS1 maint: postscript (link)

Removed content

I have removed two unsourced sentences, tagged since June 2010. No objection to their being restored with a reliable reference.

Injuries

There were reports of scuffles at Ben Gurion International Airport. Ó Luain was injured when a row broke out with Israeli authorities but he was not seriously hurt.{{Citation needed|date=June 2010}}

--Mirokado (talk) 12:33, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Also removed the CNN Türkiye ref, which appears to add nothing to the information of the previous Keinon ref which is in English. Please provide a translation if necessary, automatic translators are still hopeless for Turkish.

Ship passengers

Avrasya'da da, Mavi Marmara'da da aynı eylemci, 20.08.2010, CNN Türkiye.

--Mirokado (talk) 20:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I've removed Shoval (2010) because it provides the same information as the other two refs (although with what looks like a direct quote from the interview). I'm placing it here with a translation of the corresponding quotation. This reference may be useful for supporting other content.

Investigation for on-board weapons

Shoval, Lilach (4 June 2010). "מצאנו על הספינה תרמילים מנשק זר" (in Hebrew). Israel Hayom. Retrieved 17 June 2011. הקצין הבכיר חשף חלק מהממצאים שנתגלו בחקירת האירוע: 'בין ציוד הלחימה הרב שמצאנו היתה גם כוונת של רובה. לא מצאנו את הרובה אבל יש לנו עדויות שהם זרקו כלי נשק למים. הזיהוי הפלילי מצא על האונייה גם תרמילי כדורים שאינם מתאימים לנשקים שלנו. אנחנו בודקים לאילו כלי נשק הם מתאימים'.

--Mirokado (talk) 21:56, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I have changed this reference since the title and url were revised later on the publication day. Article text updated accordingly and one phrase removed which does not appear in the revised article.

Detention of activists

At least 32 "About 629" activists were detained by the Israel Prisons Service, after they refused to sign deportation orders, including two who were wounded but refused hospital treatment.

Kyzer, Liel (31 May 2010). "Israel detains dozens of Gaza flotilla activists upon arrival in Ashdod". Haaretz Daily. Retrieved 31 May 2010. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

A Turkish mother who had brought her one-year-old child with her agreed to extradition after she was advised that prison conditions were "too harsh" for her baby.

Kyzer, Liel; Yair, Ettinger (31 May 2010). "'The ship turned into a lake of blood,' says activist on Gaza flotilla". Haaretz. Retrieved 24 June 2011.

--Mirokado (talk) 22:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Removed a dead link, two other refs already support the same content:

Flotilla motives

"Israeli PM wants direct talks with Palestinians". Nationalpost.com. 27 May 2010. Retrieved 2 June 2010.{{dead link|date=June 2011}}

--Mirokado (talk) 14:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Dates

The date formats in this article were a complete mess, with all three MOS-supported styles having been used haphazardly in the body of the article and several other unsupported styles also appearing. Apart from looking horrible, this would have caused problems for anyone using a screen reader where such inconsistencies can be very distracting and it was difficult to edit the article since not even subsections used a consistent format.

I have now standardised the article on the "international" format dd Mmmm yyyy for the following reasons:

• a template in the info box already specified use of this format: {{Start date|df=yes|2010|05|31}}
• the bold date in the article lead (which has to stay like that anyway, I think) as well as the repeated date at the start of the second para both already used this format (there was another inconsistent date format in the first para as well.)
• both the UN and Turkish reports from which we have quoted use this format (the Israeli Meir Amit report uses Mmmm dd, yyyy)

Apart from those more technical reasons, I think that using the international format for this article is in some senses the more neutral choice and will provide the best overall reader experience.

Please keep the article consistent in this respect now it is tidied up. --Mirokado (talk) 11:59, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I suggest a review of sources as well as some other stuff

There is over 250 odd sources for this article with some of them repeating info that where later clarified or corrected in later articles written by the source. This would be fine and dandy if this was a data dump for anything that matched "Gaza flotilla raid" on Google search, but I feel that it does a disservice to people seeking the actual happenings of the event.

The easiest part of editing this article would be to get rid of sources (as well as information obtained from such sources) that have "spokesperson" in it. The job of a spokesperson is to spin events (propaganda) and is hardly NPOV in any sense. The only place such sources belong to is in spinoff articles detailing the reaction that governments or institutions have towards the event in question. --General Choomin (talk) 11:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs pruning and/or splitting (again), it is twice a reasonable size at present at least. It would be difficult to remove all the "spokesperson" refs in a simple way as that would selectively remove reports based on official sources and practically speaking there were no unofficial sources for the Israeli operation itself. Often citations from more than one viewpoint are needed to support the neutral content of the article. A few refs can probably be removed from the places where there are multiple inline refs at the same place in the text, or where several citations are concatenated into a single inline ref. It is probably also the case that there is too much detail in some sections. Anyone removing content should explain clearly why in edit summaries and consider moving it to the talk page rather than simply deleting it. I have been using the #Removed content section for that. It will help if other editors keep to the same format if adding other removals there. --Mirokado (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the level of detail is out of hand here, e.g. actions of individual "soldiers" shouldn't be mentioned here at all. --Dailycare (talk) 16:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I've moved the details about Freedom Flotilla II to that article. --Mirokado (talk) 15:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposed split - "Gaza Flotilla" and "Gaza Flotilla Raid"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was split as detailed below. Closing the discussion to record the clear consensus. Please see #Split to Gaza Freedom Flotilla: implementation --Mirokado (talk) 22:21, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

In an effort to both shorten the article and break it into more logical chunks, I propose splitting it -- "Gaza Flotilla" and "Gaza Flotilla Raid". These are individually notable enough to merit their own pages. And, this is consistent with Freedom Flotilla II which has it's own page.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a natural division. The problem would be retaining enough convoy details in the raid article to make it reasonably standalone. Perhaps move some details into a template which can be transcluded into both articles? Probably Gaza flotilla (2010) would be a clearer title (edit: but see below). Here is a suggestion for how the sections could be distributed:

--Mirokado (talk) 22:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

(italicised summary sections for clarity) --Mirokado (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Bueller? -- Bob drobbs (talk) 20:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Since the flotilla was called the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" and there is already a redirect of that name leading to this article, I suggest we use that name for the new article, with suitable hat notes. Updated above. --Mirokado (talk) 04:21, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

You're right, Bob: A split is certainly called for; the article is just far too long. And this proposed division of structure seems pretty sound to me, as well.

I'd like to stress, in the strongest possible way, however, that I think we need to all agree on this or on some modified format/structure for the two articles that will result, before going forward with the split. There will doubtless be tweaks that people will want to make after any split, but at least a broadly-based agreement on structure will help prevent a full-scale dust up, I think. So does anyone have any objection to the "split structure" proposed above? Or any suggestions to modify it?  – OhioStandard (talk) 00:40, 2 July 2011 (UTC) ( Let's leave this open for comment for the usual seven days, please, before going ahead. )

Sounds like a good idea. And it should be relatively easy to do it in a way compliant with NPOV, something like what is outlined above. It's roughly a chronological split, with one article covering everything up to the flotilla being in mid-sea, and the article on the raid covering everything from the start of the raid. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Split to Gaza Freedom Flotilla: implementation

It so happens that I have time this weekend to prepare the split contents. I will follow the outline in the previous section. I have no objection whatsoever if somebody else would prefer to do this... --Mirokado (talk) 22:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I've started to make the split, but I'm currently being delayed by server errors while trying to save the main update to this article, so for a while the flotilla details are duplicated here and there and I may make the update in several stages some of which would display reference errors. Sorry about that. --Mirokado (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Finished the main edits now. Thanks for your patience if you have been being patient. I have left inuse on the new section for a while but I will remove it "soon". I will be making one or two other edits as well, so please continue to edit the rest of the article as normal. --Mirokado (talk) 18:49, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic language in lead

I have removed the phrase using the word "fizzled" in the lead. This is a clearly pejorative, unencyclopedic word which should only appear in a directly attributed, qualified, quotation and is thus unsuitable for the lead of a Misplaced Pages article. The reference used to support it has a grammatical error in its title: I'm sure we can find a competently written piece to confirm the current (final?) status of the flotilla as necessary. If somebody wishes to restore "fizzled" somewhere else in the article, by all means do so in a suitable context. Please take the trouble to provide a fully complete citation if you do, there are plenty of examples of what is needed. --Mirokado (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Man.. what's with all the passive voice? Who's writing this article? Whoever you are, would you please write it better with a more encyclopedic tone and style? - M0rphzone (talk) 05:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Can Mankell's statements be established or refuted?

Henning Mankell, an eyewitness, says "Israeli commandos fired at will from helicopters" at passengers of MV Mavi Marmara - see http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israelis-cannot-make-the-gaza-reality-disappear-1.373632. What is the status of this factoid? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.192.162 (talk) 02:13, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, much can be clearly inferred from the videos, especially the ones from the activists.

The actual helicopter scene taken from the ship with sound and images, can be seen in two videos by the activists, (as opposed to the videos from the Israelis). The shots are heard and are seen with the paintball liquid hitting the wall, and two activists notifying the rest that it is not live ammunition. This strongly coincides with the Israeli narrative. At least one of the two shown wounded activists, dragged into the ship following the roof attack, clearly have a plastic bullet wound from close contact.

Both the Israeli (IDF) and activist (IHH) narrative talk about the stun grenades prior to the first attack, and the Israeli images show the roof-deck before and during the raid, clearly no-one is seen hurt or wounded at that stage.

On the other hand the Israeli video with the soldier yelling "Yes! Yes! I see him, he's holding a gun and using live ammunition" and the recorded command following that: "End all paintball, use live ammunition" are not clearly from the first 5 minutes, and it can be inferred from some Israeli sources (like the timeline video) that there were soldiers that attempted to use their guns including the first three abducted soldiers after being stabbed with knives, and the forth one seeing his friends being beaten and his commander thrown head down.

So, the answer to your question is: Yes, there are many indications (these are only a few) that there was no firing of live ammunition from the helicopter. But that doesn't mean that both side's narrative is completely consistent. both have loopholes and obviously censored parts in the released videos. (the IHH video is cut in some places, and there are people saying: Do not photo this, in several scenes, while the IDF videos stop at a certain moment and do not give the full picture, although obviously they have it.) By closely following the facts, it is possible to reconstruct what actually happened. פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 17:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

other issues.

"Ma'ariv": Israel is offering $100,000 compensation per family, provided that Turkey rescinds its demand for an apology.

Should that be moved into the article?

I haven't read this article in quite some time, but I do not remembering seeing the "blockade of the gaza strip" template.

I don't understand why the second intifada is part of the infobox. That is independent of the blockade and flotilla raid right? Wikifan 08:46, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

UNHRC bias?

Having read the article, this is something that appears somewhat flawed to me: That in particularily the part concerning the independent UNHRC report, nothing is mentioned of the rather heavy critisism for laying undue weight on critisising Israel above more urgent matters that the council has received from high UN officials, UN members and at least one NGO. Seeing as how it's written in the Misplaced Pages article on the UNHRC, and more importantly puts the results of the fact-finding mission, the very serious allegations made against Israel in the report, the concerns about the report from the United States and the European Union's wish that it be transefered from the council in a new perspective, I think it should be briefly mentioned in the beginning of the "The UNHRC fact-finding mission" part.

Also, in the part of the article mentioned, it is written that "the fact-finding mission headed by three prominent international jurists". Whom are these, and should it be included in the same part of the article?

Feedback? 82.182.76.119 (talk) 22:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Who (or which organisation etc) made these criticisms about undue weight? Can you provide a reliable reference here to support the statement? I haven't the time to check for jurists' names now, but I would first look through the report to see if the authors are listed there. --Mirokado (talk) 23:01, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

All this is new to me, but if I may, I'd suggest the following as introduction:

1. HRC lead, 3rd paragraph
2. HRC#Israel
3. CHR#Israel similar story with HRC predecessor

I guess the IP user is referring to these WP articles. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:26, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

As I wrote, much of it can actually be read in the Misplaced Pages article on it. For starters we have Kofi Annan, Ban Ki Moon, Mary Robinson, Doru Costea. The EU, Canada, the US, and from what I gather at least one NGO, UN Watch. I think there are more, but right now I haven't looked up any more.

Looked it up, the jurists are Karl Hudson-Phillips, Desmond Lorenz de Silva and Mary Shanthi Dairiam. Can't say I found much about them that concerns the subject of the article other than their involvment in the writing of the report. Personally I still think that their names should be included, to make the article more complete. ElCommandanteChe, yes, it was mostly that I refered to, but also to the other article which I've linked to above. Does anyone think more research, sources, etc. should be included to back changes? 82.182.76.119 (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The report itself can't be used as a source to say the three are "prominent." I got rid of it, POV. I also filled out Israel's response about why they won't support the UNHRC's mission. It is in the same source used to say Israel won't let the group interview its people. Modinyr (talk) 10:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

To quote a fictional Indian shopkeeper from a TV series circulating around the fictional stories of the fictional yellow inhabitants with four fingers on each hand in a rather corrupt fictional city: Thank you, come again! 82.182.76.119 (talk) 23:34, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Unaddressed issues

• Palmer Report needs to be updated.
• Why the heck is the Gaza blockade template still in existence? Who is responsible for its creation and where can an editor file a petition for a deletion? The template is simply inaccurate. Including events prior to the blockade, such the second intifada, before Israel withdrew its army from the strip makes no sense at all.

So? Wikifan 06:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Problematic edit on the UN report

In this edit, an editor has presented the opinion of Joseph Ciechanover, the Israeli member of the UN commission, as a fact. However, as Ynet news, the source, only refers to the opinion of Ciechanover, and Ciechanover is not an independent expert with regard to the report, the assessment must be presented as Ciechanover's opinion. Furthermore, neither Ynet news nor Ciechanover uses the term "flotilla problem", and the specific wording of the edit thus either mixes Ciechanover's views and the editor's views, or an original interpretation of Ciechanover's views.

As I have already reverted some other content during the last 24 hours, I am asking other editors to address this issue.  Cs32en Talk to me  00:19, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I see a direct quotation. "It is the opinion of the Israeli government, blah blah blah." "in dealing with the flotilla problem" is possible editor language and could be tweaked to "flotilla incident" or simply "flotilla raid." We can't plagiarize sources. Wikifan 01:58, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Which direct quotation are you referring to? Neither the article nor the source (the Ynet news article) contain the phrase "It is the opinion of the Israeli government". Nobody has advocated plagiarizing sources, by the way.  Cs32en Talk to me  02:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay I'm just a bit confused. You are stating an edit is showing an opinion of the Israeli government or person as fact, right? Here is the edit:

The only major area of disagreement between the Israeli government and the Palmer report's findings is that the Israeli government rejected the claim that Israel used "excessive and unreasonable" force in dealing with the flotilla problem.

What's the issue specifically? Wikifan 02:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that this is an opinion that is presented as a fact. Ciechanover does not speak for Israel, and even if it were a statement by the Israeli government, we would need to attribute it, as we cannot know whether the Israeli government (as all governments, individuals, companies etc.) has presented its own thoughts truthfully. In addition, the presentation of Ciechanover's opinion is not following the source. I can't see any statement in the source that would support the wording "flotilla problem", nor do I see a statement characterizing the disagreement as the "only major area of disagreement". These appear to be original interpretations of the statements contained in the source.  Cs32en Talk to me  04:04, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

So do you suggest a rephrase or a whole-sale deletion? Wikifan 04:14, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The observation that the assessment of the use of force is a major disagreement between the UN commission and Israel is probably correct. This should have been reported on by multiple sources. So my approach would be to look for a more appropriate source (a fact-based news article rather than an article based on an interview), and then replace the current content with content based on that source.  Cs32en Talk to me  12:19, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I rephrased the text so that it says exactly what the article says. I don't think this changes the basic meaning, but it should eliminate your complaints about OR wording. Benwing (talk) 09:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting the text! My main concern were assessments like "the only" that are original interpretations of the source. While I think that there are better sources around, this is what we can write based on that particular source.  Cs32en Talk to me  10:32, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Unexplained removal

I removed the balance tag a second time after no reasoning was provided here. Article has improved substantially since July, and any neutrality issues can be resolved through collaborative editing. Wikifan 03:24, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

• Sourcing concerns remain. I've tagged many unsourced claims. A substantial amount of material displayed as fact is attributed to the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. That's the equivalent of citing information in the Turkish National Commission's report (which has also been listed but not attributed to any material) and presenting the information as fact.
• The lead is blatantly one-sided. It goes into extraordinary detail about attacks on Israeli soldiers while the mention of civilian casulaties is limited to pure statistics in less than ten words. The opening paragraph gives an assertion by the Israeli government about what the event was, but omits a counter-claim or a claim of any other kind whatsoever. The next paragraph goes a step further, presenting Israeli opinion as fact without any attribution (even to the Israeli government). It also makes vague allusions to unnamed "others" and omits basic information unfavourable to that perspective. Nightw 06:37, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Israel-related articles
• Mid-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• B-Class Palestine-related articles
• Mid-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• B-Class Turkey articles
• Mid-importance Turkey articles
• All WikiProject Turkey pages
• B-Class International relations articles
• Mid-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class military history articles
• B-Class maritime warfare articles
• Maritime warfare task force articles
• B-Class national militaries articles
• National militaries task force articles
• B-Class Balkan military history articles
• Balkan military history task force articles
• B-Class European military history articles
• European military history task force articles
• B-Class Middle Eastern military history articles
• Middle Eastern military history task force articles
• Misplaced Pages In the news articles
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press