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Revision as of 13:35, 11 October 2011 editUrselius (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers24,669 edits →Traditional Rhymes ← Previous edit		Revision as of 13:47, 11 October 2011 edit undoParrot of Doom (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers42,489 edits →Traditional Rhymes: shove itNext edit →
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	::::::You believe you own the article, this is not so. I have created a number of articles and improved many more, I am a published academic, please do not try to teach me to suck eggs. Referenced material can be introduced to any article if the references and subject matter are relevant. ] (]) 13:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)		::::::You believe you own the article, this is not so. I have created a number of articles and improved many more, I am a published academic, please do not try to teach me to suck eggs. Referenced material can be introduced to any article if the references and subject matter are relevant. ] (]) 13:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

			:::::::Take your ownership accusations and shove them up your arse, along with the eggs. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 13:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

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Modern Reinterpretations

Guy Fawkes Night has taken on new significance since Anonymous has been using Guy Fawkes as their unofficial mascot and have threatened to destroy Facebook on the 5th of November. There's a lot of content in the Archives, so maybe I missed it, but it seems this should be referenced on the page. Is there a reason it's not that I somehow missed? If not, I'll put it in. The Cap'n (talk) 19:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

The reason that it isn't in this article is that while Guy Fawkes Night might be relevant to Anonymous, the same cannot be said in reverse. Parrot of Doom 21:47, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

This article needs to be expanded to cover the 21st century and current practices

see: Talk:Guy Fawkes Night/Archives/4#Bonfire night is not just an historical event

see: Talk:Guy Fawkes Night/Archives/6#Current practice

While this article does not have a comprehensive section on contemporary celebrations around the world it should not be a featured article because it is missing a large part of what the article should be about. If this is just going to be about historical events then we shoudl move it to the history of Guy Fawkes Night and write a new article about Guy Fawkes Night. Otherwise it should be expanded to cover the event as it occurs in the 21st century.

Parrot of Doom you have argued in a previous section that "If you can find good reliable sources which include significant coverage of today's 5 November celebrations then I'm sure we can work it in. What Moonraker's silly little whinge doesn't make clear is that despite being repeatedly asked, he and 'his entourage' have either been unwilling, or unable to provide any such sources."

First of all why the disparaging remark "silly little whinge"? Do you really think that helps to build a collegiate atmosphere on a talk page? What does "his entourage" mean? As to your comment about unwilling to provide any such source you either have not been reading this talk page carefully or you have a bad memory as reliable sourced information has been provided both in the article and on this talk page.

Newspapers and government websites are reliable sources. This is not my just my opinion but is the general consensus as expressed in WP:SOURCES. And just like historical sources, these will tend to concentrate on such things as fireworks bans and comments by government ministers that you previously dismissed with the comment "Then you might ask yourself why its so important to mention specific fireworks bans and comments by government ministers when compared to civil wars, religious upheavals, etc."

By that measure we would have to strip lots of "unimportant" information from this article eg:

Extended content
In settlements such as Carlisle, Norwich and Nottingham, corporations provided music and artillery salutes. Canterbury celebrated 5 November 1607 with 106 pounds of gunpowder and 14 pounds of match, and three years later food and drink was provided for local dignitaries, as well as music, explosions and a parade by the local militia. or By the 1620s 5 November was honoured in market towns and villages across the country, though it was some years before it was commemorated throughout England. Gunpowder Treason Day, as it was then known, became the predominant English state commemoration. Some parishes made the day a festive occasion, with public drinking and solemn processions. or For the lower classes, however, the anniversary was a chance to pit disorder against order, a pretext for violence and uncontrolled revelry. This theme continued into the 19th century, with reports in Lewes of annual rioting, intimidation of "respectable householders" Enough already!

Extended content

In settlements such as Carlisle, Norwich and Nottingham, corporations provided music and artillery salutes. Canterbury celebrated 5 November 1607 with 106 pounds of gunpowder and 14 pounds of match, and three years later food and drink was provided for local dignitaries, as well as music, explosions and a parade by the local militia.

By the 1620s 5 November was honoured in market towns and villages across the country, though it was some years before it was commemorated throughout England. Gunpowder Treason Day, as it was then known, became the predominant English state commemoration. Some parishes made the day a festive occasion, with public drinking and solemn processions.

For the lower classes, however, the anniversary was a chance to pit disorder against order, a pretext for violence and uncontrolled revelry. This theme continued into the 19th century, with reports in Lewes of annual rioting, intimidation of "respectable householders"

Enough already!

At the moment if an American reads this article would they be able to tell that ~~November the 5th~~Guy Fawkes Night is still a big celebration in England and New Zealand. For the New Zealand celebration I provided reliable sources on this talk page see my previous posting on 18:41, 24 March 2011 in which I sourced the comments from a New Zealand government website and the New Zealand Herald both of which are reliable sources. But you already know this Parrot of Doom because you made the next posting to the talk page after that one and chose not to comment on it. -- PBS (talk) 11:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

This article isn't about November 5th, it's about Guy Fawkes Night, a distinction you seem to find singularly difficult to understand. Malleus Fatuorum 19:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Did you read the two sources? The first starts "Wellington's skies will come alive this Guy Fawkes Night as ..." and the second has the byline "Our guide to Guy Fawkes" followed by a first sentence that reads "We offer some suggestions on where to go for Guy Fawkes displays tonight and at the weekend...". -- PBS (talk) 19:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Traditional Rhymes

Dear all,
The tradtional rhymes associated with "Guy Fawkes" story is the soul of this article. Somebody has removed it from one of the previous article written by someone else here. So i am restoring the traditional rhymes section again as it was.
-Viplovecomm (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I tried but failed to find the source for these rhymes, or even a reliable source that discusses them in detail. Unless we can demonstrate their relevance and where they came from, they have no place here. For all we know some might be modern inventions. Parrot of Doom 19:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

You didn't look very hard, this is from the first hit Googling "cob coaling song":

Note from a CD insert describing a Lancashire "cob coalling" song: "This song, from the Lancashire and Yorkshire border is associated with Bonfire Night. It is believed to have been part of a Mummers Play before transferring to the more recent calendar ritual. It was given to The Watersons in the 1960s by A. L. Lloyd. It was to have been included on their album on ritual songs, Frost And Fire, in the 1960s but space did not permit. (Topic Records has recently reissued Frost And Fire as TSCD 136). The Watersons in full flight is that even when singing in unison there is an aural illusion of harmony. This is the first time this line-up has recorded and The Watersons were Norma, Michael and Ann Waterson, Martin and Eliza Carthy and Jill Pidd."Urselius (talk) 16:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll ignore your slight, for now. As for your other point: so this song doesn't really have much to do with 5 November, other than sharing the date. Is that it? Parrot of Doom 17:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll reciprocate in respect of the implied threat. No the song was intimately connected with Guy Fawkes Night. Rather than "Penny for the Guy" the youngsters in Lancashire and other parts of the North of England would go collecting from door to door singing a "cob coaling" song. The main aim was to be given money, ostensibly to buy fireworks, but donations of wood or coal for the bonfire were also welcome. The reference above was to illustrate that variations on the song have been recorded and are researchable and references do exist. Urselius (talk) 20:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

So where are these references? Parrot of Doom 21:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

A musical recording: FW38553_113 Cob Coaling Song Track Artist Dora Turner Country(s) United Kingdom Genre(s) Folksong revival; Music--British Isles Instrument(s) Vocals Language(s) English Duration 0:32 An English Folk Music Anthology Various Artists FW38553

Country(s) United Kingdom Keyword(s) Folksong revival; Music--British Isles; Music--Juvenile Instrument(s) Vocals Language(s) English

Year of Recording 1981 Record Label Folkways Records Source Archive Smithsonian Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage Credits Produced by Tish Stubbs ; Recorded by Tish Stubbs ; Recorded by Sam Richards ; Produced by Sam Richards ; Design by Ronald Clyne

A reference in a Journal: Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society Volumes 4-6 (1940), page 260 has the lyrics of a cob coaling song.

No doubt there are more out there.Urselius (talk) 07:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It isn't enough to state they exist. There's no point in mentioning a bunch of rhymes and songs, unless some context is given for their inclusion. Something which discusses their roots, or their relevance, for instance. So where are those references? It should be easy to find expert sources on the matter, after all, I didn't look very hard did I? Parrot of Doom 08:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well "Penny for the Guy" is mentioned in the present text, and it is or was a largely southern English custom, I would assert that a northern English variant of raising money on the pretext of Guy Fawkes night is just as relevant to this article. Also it should not require a higher level of citationUrselius (talk) 09:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

A Penny for the Guy is mentioned because it is a custom that has specific and verifiable roots in English culture, and because it has been given significant coverage in the expert sources used to build this article. Those same sources include very little, nothing even, about songs and rhymes.

So if such sources exist, please tell me what they are. Parrot of Doom 09:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The Lore of the Playground: One Hundred Years of Children's Games, Rhymes ... Steve Roud p. 511. Cob-coaling is at least as relevant as the references to tar barrel burning etc. in small vilages, which are in the article now. I'm not asking for the lyrics to be inserted, just a reference to another regional custom directly related to Guy Fawkes night.

Also if you are going to mention Whig "Pope Burnings" then Tory "Jack Presbyter Burnings" should also be referenced for completeness.Urselius (talk) 09:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the songs and rhymes are definately notable as part of the tradition, and they are widely mentioned in the corpus of information around bonfire, especially for Sussex, but we could certainly do with some definitive sources. In the meantime, I would suggest that some of the links that spring up for bonfire societies etc. when you google things like 'bonfire treason and plot' would probably be suitable to meet wp:cite in this instance, given the verbal culture nature of the topic. OwainDavies _(talk) edited at 10:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I've looked at that book before and noted that it makes little to no effort to discern the source of these customs, and leans mostly on 1950s anecdotes. In short, it says "some songs existed, now they don't". In my view that isn't enough for an article like this. If a song or rhyme is to be mentioned I'd like to see the earliest recorded instance of its use, just as is done with "penny for the guy" and other customs.

I will investigate Jack Presbyter burnings though, so thanks for that. Parrot of Doom 10:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The cob-coaling song is part of the "Opie collection of children's games and songs" held at the British Library. They are late 20th century in origin, but there are a number of allusions to the lyrics being related to those of Mummers Plays, which are Medieval in origin. But I don't understand the need for a long history, this is an article about Guy Fawkes Night - surely a celebration which is still extant and evolving as all folk celebrations do.

For a full account of Jack Presbyter (and Pope) Burnings try Restoration: Charles II and His Kingdoms, 1660-1685 by Tim Harris.Urselius (talk) 10:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The primary influence on an article's content is what the most authoritative sources have to say about the subject. The best sources I have found pay songs and rhymes almost no attention - James Sharpe devotes only a few short lines to the subject, as part of his book's introduction, and makes no attempt to expand further. If you know of sources that do, please present them. I am not about to allow this article to be littered with folk songs, when no rationale other than "I think they should be mentioned because I've heard of them" is included. Parrot of Doom 12:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that proprietership of articles is part of the Misplaced Pages ethos, you seem to be veering close to claiming ownership of the page.

Having read Parrot's last comment, it seems overprescriptive - some customs cannot be traced with any reliability, but the noting of the custom in a book, would mean it meets WP:V, regardless of whether we have a detailed history for it or not. Regardless of whether you'd 'like' to see a history, WP does not require it. The songs certainly appear to have a long tradition, and some of them are still in regular use, and that makes them notable for this article. OwainDavies _(talk) edited at 12:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If such customs were important then they'd have been covered by authors knowledgeable on the subject, and would not be restricted to drive-by mentions in sources such as the one above, which is a compilation of children's playground traditions. I'll say it again - if you know of reliable, expert sources that demonstrate the importance of 5 November songs or rhymes, then present them. Parrot of Doom 12:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Some Notes on the Folklore of Upper Calderdale Author(s): F. H. Marsden Source: Folklore, Vol. 43, No. 3 (Sep. 30, 1932), pp. 249-272 Published by: Taylor & Francis, Ltd. This has a Gunpower Plot Nominy Song in it.

Please remember that the article is about "Guy Fawkes Night", it is not "A Thesis on the Origins and History of the Gunpowder Plot, and its Subsequent Treatment in Historical and Academic Literature." And again I'm not asking for lyrics to be introduced to the text, just an allusion to the practice of singing special songs and collecting door to door, as practiced in certain areas of England. Just because you have no experience of these things and they do not appear in the books you have read doesn't make them irrelevant to the article.Urselius (talk) 12:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

So what books have you read that make them relevant? Or is your knowledge of this subject restricted to what you can find on Google? Parrot of Doom 13:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

In the days of my youth I sang them, that makes them relevant to me and also to very many others who similarly sang them and who might read this article. What right have you to exclude the traditions of large areas of the North of England from a relevant article? I have given you more than enough references.Urselius (talk) 13:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm bored of repeating myself. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the relevant policies and guidelines for article content. You can start with WP:RS. Parrot of Doom 13:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

You believe you own the article, this is not so. I have created a number of articles and improved many more, I am a published academic, please do not try to teach me to suck eggs. Referenced material can be introduced to any article if the references and subject matter are relevant. Urselius (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Take your ownership accusations and shove them up your arse, along with the eggs. Parrot of Doom 13:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

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