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Hi. On ], concerns have been raised based on and I'm really, really stumped as to how fix that wording. You can't reword "world record" as it is a technical term. The event type tends to be organised pretty much from shortest distance to longest as a really, really standard convention in both swimming and in athletics. I could take out the word metre and replace with just m. But that wouldn't seem to address that issue. Changing the order of these things doesn't seem like it would clear it up. :/ And yeah. :( Stumped and not sure how to fix this. :( Help? --] (]) 19:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi. On ], concerns have been raised based on and I'm really, really stumped as to how fix that wording. You can't reword "world record" as it is a technical term. The event type tends to be organised pretty much from shortest distance to longest as a really, really standard convention in both swimming and in athletics. I could take out the word metre and replace with just m. But that wouldn't seem to address that issue. Changing the order of these things doesn't seem like it would clear it up. :/ And yeah. :( Stumped and not sure how to fix this. :( Help? --] (]) 19:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
:Based on the duplication detector (which I have to note for accuracy reflects the current version of the article), I don't think it needs fixing. :) I agree with you that the organization of shortest to longest is natural and that there is little creativity in the text. I've scanned through the source and the article (but not in-depth; have to make school lunch in a minute!), and I don't see any issues. --] <sup>]</sup> 10:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
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CCI (again!)
Hi Maggie - I've still been working through Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/GiW, and I'm down to just two articles left. I've been through the article and tagged them both as having some OTRS-verified material, as well as removing some copyvios from other sites. However, they both have some bits and pieces that I can't verify as having come from anyplace specifically. I'm hoping that you or maybe some of your copyvio-expert TPSs may have better luck than me. Once the last remaining issues on these two articles are taken care of, I think this CCI can be closed. Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi MRG, looks like we might have another CCI case... currently blocked for 1 month after being found have done the same kind of thing as Ironboy11 (talk·contribs) did but on China related article pages instead. Sorry to trouble you time and again, thanks and best. --Dave15:11, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Dave. :) He doesn't seem to have been blocked for copyright problems, but for sock puppetry and disruption. I see there have been a few issues with images, but all that I see left at a glance in his uploads are fair use. Can you give me some links to current issues? Or to recent problems with text? --Moonriddengirl10:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
While I'd really like to help, I'm afraid that I'm a bit time challenged these days. I really don't have time to dig deeply into people. :/ I'm glad to hear that Drmies is on it, though, and if there's diffs to current issues I'll be happy to open a CCI. I can try to take a look this weekend, when I have time off work, but I find I usually don't get much further than sweeping up the backlog at WP:CP, if I even make it through that. --Moonriddengirl12:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Alright, take your time and grab some R&R, you've most certainly earned it. Anyway, it's not like he's going anywhere now that his block has been resetted to expire on 13 November instead. Although Drmies and JamesBWatson are watching him, your expertise in WP:CCI was what prompted me to approach you for help in the first place. Many thanks again. Remember, take your time... but hurry up~! Just kidding... --Dave12:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. :) But I'm not resting and relaxing, I'm working. :D I spend more time living and breathing Misplaced Pages now than I ever did before. It does make it hard to keep up. It can take me an hour or more to evaluate a contributor to see if a CCI is necessary. If I have a couple of current diffs, it's a lot easier for me to invest it, when I've got soooo much other work piling up for me to do. :/ --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:02, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Supreme facepalm of destiny... I see, you're now officially one of them, huh? The dark side just grew stronger... d:) --Dave16:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
I've said this before, Maggie... but you're awesome. Thanks for the work that you do. :-) If I had the time to help you, I would. Ed04:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Need Help!
Hello Moonriddengirl, this is Survir. Can you please help me protect the following page List of programs broadcast by Star Plus. This page is constantly being vandalized by the same IP address that I have told you about earlier. He/she keeps adding made up names to the list of programs. Earlier you Semi-protected the page, and that really helped. The page was fine until the protection was removed. Can you please fully protect the page, if you can. I will really appreciate your help. Thank you! Your friend Survir (talk) 01:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
I decided to have a break from NPP and go reflinking on old linkrot-tagged pages ..... already CSD G12'd a couple of things ....
and including The Superhero in the Alley (Bones episode), which seems, unfortunately, to have been a straight lift from a site no longer in existence (bonestvseries.net).
Fing is, though, fing is, if this one was a straight lift - how many others are? Wayback Machine is unhelpful, though it does show the kinda thing which was appearing on the site, you can't actually get to this darned episode! So, who's up for some nice police work now that clever sniffer-Wolfcub has found one for you :D "Clever doggy, give the nice doggy a biscuit". Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Was all of the material added by the same editor? If so just start a wp:CCI and we can nuke from orbit everything that is even remotely suspicious. If we are dealing with a variable IP or single use socks I wouldn't even know where to start cleaning that up. Also, how did you determine it was a copyvio with no source in the first place? Yoenit (talk) 00:42, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Hmm. This one is a bit tricky. :) I've restored the article (which Fastily speedily deleted), but tagged it with {{copyvio}} while we work through this.
The website in question displays October 2010 as the earliest dated item, and I note that it credits the Wikimedia Foundation at the top listing of the archived set. The article itself was created in February 2010, and I believe it was copied from Wikia, which is compatibly licensed (but was not credited). That said, it is so much too long that I believe it crosses the line into potential infringement simply based on the amount of detail, particularly given the absolute lack of critical commentary.
Articles about television shows are a chronic copyright problem. People liberally copy episode summaries from other sources, and reverse infringement is also rampant. Typically, if an article is listed at CP, I will check other uploads by the same user, as Yoenit suggests. But frankly I think we lack the manpower to do the thorough scour that television articles in general would require. If I'm thoroughly investigating a summary list, it can take me hours. :/ --Moonriddengirl15:03, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) You would have to file a report at wp:SPI, which is so complex I have still no idea how it works despite trying it three times. Those guys should really work on their accessibility, although I suppose it helps in keeping the number of frivolous reports down. /rant off. Luckily it seems the sock is already blocked in this case. Yoenit (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
They really do need to work on their transparency. At this point, I feel like the obscurity of the process is purposeful so that blocks can be enacted on certain people without having evidence for it. I have yet to be shown that this opinion isn't true. And don't even get me started on "behavioral" evidence... /rant Silverseren03:35, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree that filing at SPI is pretty complex. I'm never 100% sure that I'm doing it right. I don't watch the process anywhere near enough to know about transparency issues, but, Silver, I have to admit I got kind of a laugh out of the juxtaposition of these thoughts: "I feel like the obscurity of the process is purposeful so that blocks can be enacted on certain people without having evidence for it. I have yet to be shown that this opinion isn't true." Maybe it's just because I'm barely awake still, but it struck me as funny since it implies in the first sentence a preferred standard of "innocent until proven guilty" and in the second "guilty until proven innocent." :)
In terms of behavioral evidence, I have not blocked a lot of socks myself, but those I have blocked have been almost universally blocked on behavioral evidence. Since I am not a CU, I don't have any other kind. :/ Fortunately, some people are pretty obvious. "Achmed Nuts of 321" didn't fall far from the tree. :/ I believe he may be still here as an IP; I'm looking into that. --Moonriddengirl12:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the IPs are Achmednut or an opportunist who saw his name on your talk page. :) We'll see if he comes back. Meanwhile, perhaps you might archive some of those older messages in case they're giving vandals ideas. :/ --Moonriddengirl12:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
3RR disagreement here. User has reverted my edits three times. I thought that the original version of the page must stay until disagreement was over. I don't believe the user is willing to continue a discussion. Jayy008 (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Jayy. :) Typically, per WP:BRD, the original version should stay, but the original version is the one preceding the edit that was reverted. That is, the one beforethis edit of yours. :) While the issue is hashed out, the original wording of "as" should be retained. That's the heart of the "bold, revert, discuss" cycle. You made a change; he objected and changed it back; now you discuss. Your bold change is the point where disagreement begins, and it doesn't stay in during the discussion. (That is, again, typically; if a bold change is to address copyright or BLP concerns, it's handled differently.)
In terms of the other changes, articles are not locked while content is disputed unless an edit war makes that necessary. I don't understand why, if your only argument is with the word "as", you have repeatedly undone all of his edits: , . :/ This isn't a good approach, Jayy. It makes it look like you are being aggressive and not collaborating towards the improvement of the article. Even if this were a case where the change should remain (if you were removing a WP:BLP problem, for instance), you shouldn't undo all of the subsequent edits to put back in that one. You should target the specific concern.
At this juncture, your job is to bring in somebody else who will continue the discussion so that you can both avoid edit warring. You might try WP:3O. Remember to ask neutrally and to follow their directions, or you might not get a response. --Moonriddengirl11:17, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that. So thanks. My other question, don't all editors who break 3RR get blocked no matter what, though? Jayy008 (talk) 18:08, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Moon. I just ran across this article and immediately sensed a copyvio. I did some digging and found the original, copyrighted source. After tagging it as a copypaste until I could check the whole text, I noticed that the account that created the article either is or represents the author of the book. I would normally ask the author to donate but it's a textbook so I'm guessing donating isn't easy. This is way outside of my realm of copyright knowledge. How do you suggest I proceed? Nominate for G12? Ask the user to submit an OTRS ticket? OlYeller00:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Well, at base it's unusable unless we get permission. If there is an assertion of authorship, G12 is not applicable, and I typically take usernames as a de facto assertion. :) In this case, we go through the WP:CP process, although I have created one of my own long-winded templates to notify in these cases at User:Moonriddengirl/vp. I've gone ahead and taken it through the process myself. :) If he doesn't verify in a week, the article will be deleted. The template I left him includes some suggestions for making sure material complies with policy; if it doesn't, we can take further steps then. Alternatively, I have seen articles AfDed while at CP, generally when people think that even if permission comes through it won't make the article worth keeping. If we do that, though, to avoid biting we should probably leave a custom notice to the contributor rather than the template, something just saying, "I have concerns that even if permission is provided this article does not meet our inclusion guidelines, so I have...." --Moonriddengirl11:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
IEP
Hi MRG. I've left a message on your other page, but I'll just address one of your points here: It may be worth exploring if there is a specific cultural element, as this can help us tailor our approach. This is indeed the crux of the matter, but one which I feel has been poorly understood by our western WMF people. It's also an issue that risks being avoided because of it's political correctness inferences. However, copyvio/plagiarism is endemic all across Asia. It is tolerated by everyone from students to the dean. I know, because I've lived and taught in universities here for nearly 13 years, and any amount of gathering of statistics won't assist in identifying this as a specific issue. It needs to be met head on by WMF representatives who travel to these countries to set up new education and outreach programmes, and they need to know how to address these cultural aspects 'the Asian way'. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm attending the meeting today, and I will try to make sure that this is properly addressed, although you do put your finger on the difficulty there. :) I've visited Asia, but not at any length and certainly not enough to get a feel for their approach to copyright, but what you say doesn't surprise me. As you know, I've been pretty much full time on copyright cleanup on Misplaced Pages for years, and some of our most troubled articles involve India, Pakistan, the Philippines, Bangladesh and China. In the case of India and Pakistan, I have actually seen government websites that have copied Misplaced Pages without acknowledgement. My typical approach when talking to people about copyright is to try to divorce it from any moral issues; it can be seen as shameful, and I don't find this constructive. So I emphasize that certain practices are unacceptable here. If this differs from "the Asian way" or you have any additional tips, I'm all ears. :) You've offered a lot of valuable input to this issue, and I'm not embarrassed to ask for more. :D --Moonriddengirl10:47, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
(Stalking) That's an interesting concept, Moon. Divorcing the morality of plagiarism/copyvios is something that other editors and I see to be having trouble with. Several other editors including myself have had what might be called an emotional response to the wave of plagiarism and wondering how educational institutions involved with IEP can let this happen. Ultimately, feeling outraged or any sort of response based on our perception of morality is probably not constructive. As it seems that everyone involved thinks that WP is the number one priority here, morals regarding plagiarism can essentially be removed from the equation and our policies can be focused on.
Seeing it as a problem with the entirety of Asia is a bit of a broad brush. In the Nanjing University project, although we have seen quite a few copyvios, we didn't see anything near the level of problems that there have been with the IEP. We haven't seen students having to be blocked and then blocked again for copyvio; we haven't had problems with campus ambassadors and even instructors engaging in copyvio (although, we didn't have any campus ambassadors!)
The problems revolved more around formatting, notability, verifiability, failing to realise an article on a topic already existed, and a need for lots of copy-editing; some of these are common to any new editors, and the last is understandable when English is the students' second language. What we have seen with the Nanjing project is the additional problem that it is natural for these students to write in flowery, poetic terms, rather than neutral, factual terms. But an inappropriate tone is a lot less of an issue for Misplaced Pages than a flagrant copyright violation! Having said all this, the project "only" had 180 students, so was on a different scale.
Speaking of government websites not acknowledging use of Misplaced Pages, the Malaysian Ministry of Natural Resources and Environment has some problems with this as well (see Dugong, which we can presume is not the only example). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:29, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear that it's not that widespread, Demiurge. (Another government lifting from us? Sigh. :/) OlYeller, it can be hard to avoid getting outraged. There are times when I feel myself getting huffy especially when working on particularly egregious CCIs, but I do think as you say that it's not a constructive approach. I've worked with enough people to know that many of them really intend no harm and some of them are very willing to work with us to overcome issues once they get past the initial shock. In fact, one of our early CCIs came back later to give me a barnstar for helping him, which means a lot to me. :) That said, I feel a bit differently about people who come back with sock puppets to continue violating our copyright policies. :/ If we've tried to work with them and they won't get it to the point that we have had to block them, they cross the line into a form of vandalism (imo) if they insist on editing anyway. --Moonriddengirl00:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you know anyone that's good with image copyrights? Danger and I have been working on some extensive copyright issues at Data flow diagram that are stemming from one very persistent student. The source that I have found to be copied has several diagrams that the same student has recreated in some sort of Draw program and uploaded to WP for use in the article. You can see an example here. I stay away from picture copyvios because I'm not sure where the line between a copyright violation and ones own work is drawn. If you know someone I can speak to or a place that helps explain that line, I would be grateful if you could point me in that direction. OlYeller17:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Maggie - I've been working on Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/Communicat, and again, am down to just a couple of articles that I can't finish off. I hope you don't mind me bringing them here when I've gone as far as I can - I just would hate to see the CCI's languish when there's only one or two articles holding them up. Anyway, the issue with the two articles left here is that they are sourced mainly to offline sources, and while the user has a lot of copyvio'd stuff (probably more than 75%), he also added some relatively decent stuff. So, I don't know where you draw the line when you presumptively remove content. Anyway, I hope you (or a TPS) can help, so that we can get this CCI closed up! Thanks, Dana boomer (talk) 23:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
No, I don't mind at all! I'm happy to see your progress. :) I don't have time to look at this tonight, but I hope to be able to wrap it up in the morning. (Note to me: try to wrap this up in the morning.) Great work. :) --Moonriddengirl00:20, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Whether you remove presumptively is a gut call, and it's based on the behavior of the user (what was the proportion of clean material? how many sources are inaccessible) and the state of the article, really. In this case, I did some spot checks and came up with some troublesome material, so I was pretty aggressive in pruning and rewriting. --Moonriddengirl
Alas, your statement that users typically discover copyright concerns in the course of investigating questionable content, suggesting AGF be applied to me, was not quoted.
Nor was my action (on every appropriate talk page) to state that you viewed the copyright problems at Freedom in the World as minor mentioned, by my critics. (I wrote something like "I do not lose sleep wondering why you rewrote an article that had no major copyright problems".)
Hi. If you think people are not catching full context of a conversation, it may be helpful to supply diffs. :) I'm very happy to see that Demiurge agrees with my stance that people on both sides of the copyright question should be treated courteously. That's a standard that I think must not be allowed to slip. Everyone who wants to improve Misplaced Pages should be encouraged to contribute in line with community standards; editors are not disposable. --Moonriddengirl12:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
then reword the damn thing if you hae a prob with it. You dont need to CENSOR it! it pretty acruiately described what is sat and the you should take it to talk to describe your EXACTPROBLEM so others ca see that too.!Lihaas (talk) 10:35, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
My exact problems are described at the talk. Hopefully, you have a better understanding of the issues with my latest note. I am not rewording the article because I am not an editor of the article; I am an uninvolved administrator removing content that is unacceptable under our policies. You cannot say that somebody said something they didn't, especially if they are a living person. If I become an editor of the article, then this becomes a content dispute and somebody else has to get involved. Further, now that I see that there is a core misunderstanding here, making sure you realize what the problem is has become very important to avoid your misattributing quotes in other articles. --Moonriddengirl10:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Mujaddid Ahmed Ijaz
Dear Moonridden Girl,
I am Mansoor Ijaz, the eldest son of Dr Mujaddid Ahmed Ijaz, writing to you today from London, UK. I noticed that you have deleted the entirety of the Misplaced Pages page of information about my father. While I have no role in or any knowledge of who wrote that page in the first place, it contained a lot of pretty accurate and highly detailed data that is relevant to the public domain.
As I cannot see it anymore, it is not clear how we could perhaps work together to fix the copyright problems you refer to in your fix. I would like my father's contributions to Physics and other fields of pursuit in his life to be available to the public and would like to see if we cannot resurrect that page in some form acceptable to you.
Again, I have no personal interest in this other than he was an important scientist who made important contributions to the fields he studied. I have been alternately villified, celebrated and ignored in my own role as a public figure in certain sensitive political and policymaking issues in my lifetime, as my own Misplaced Pages page will attest.
Would appreciate your feedback on this and if you are willing to work with me and my brothers to insure that an accurate portrayal is put up, properly documented, then please would you send me that page which was originally formulated by the editor known as IRONBOY and let me have an initial go at it?
Hi. On Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know#Copyvio_checks, concerns have been raised based on and I'm really, really stumped as to how fix that wording. You can't reword "world record" as it is a technical term. The event type tends to be organised pretty much from shortest distance to longest as a really, really standard convention in both swimming and in athletics. I could take out the word metre and replace with just m. But that wouldn't seem to address that issue. Changing the order of these things doesn't seem like it would clear it up. :/ And yeah. :( Stumped and not sure how to fix this. :( Help? --LauraHale (talk) 19:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Based on the duplication detector (which I have to note for accuracy reflects the current version of the article), I don't think it needs fixing. :) I agree with you that the organization of shortest to longest is natural and that there is little creativity in the text. I've scanned through the source and the article (but not in-depth; have to make school lunch in a minute!), and I don't see any issues. --Moonriddengirl10:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
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