Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:50, 24 October 2011

Request

Hi Elen. I have recently filed an RfC on Kiefer.Wolfowitz. I would prefer it to be a productive RfC - and as such I would like to adhere to one of his requests that you confirm there is a basis for dispute. I am not asking you to endorse or oppose the summary, though you are welcome to, I would just like you to confirm that this not a frivolous RfC. Worm · (talk) 18:48, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I've endorsed. I think it's a shame that it's come to this, but I think it might help him to take it seriously. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Elen, my priority was that Kiefer might actually be a willing participant, and make the whole thing actually a worthwhile use of the community's (and my) time. Seems he may not be, in which case the RfC will proceed without him, but at least I've tried. Worm · (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

See my note on his talkpage. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:29, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Doing the right thing ....

I saw the note and was very disappointed by it: "it never comes out well for the editor who attempts to ignore the issue". A sitting arbitrator should know better than to use such intimidating language to coerce another editor. Geometry guy 22:13, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Geometry Guy, I was merely repeating my advice given to Kiefer.Wolfowitz previously, when I advised him to engage with a more informal dispute resolution process. As predicted then, his attempts to ignore/stonewall the issue did not turn out well - look, here we are at a RfC. Kiefer's bizarre argument (made two months ago as well ) that he cannot attend to the RfC for two months, but intends to continue to edit freely during that time, are not going to sit well with anyone. It's certainly not a threat from me, as I won't be making any kind of decision relating to the RfC, but in my experience an individual who ignores dispute resolution processes and persists in the problematic behaviour (important point - if the subject chooses not to attend in person, but takes the message away, then of course that may stop further problems) tends to find themselves summarily blocked or banned at WP:ANI. Kiefer needs to see dispute resolution in a different light - he's not dealing with editors who are rabidly against him (Worm and I thought well of him until this blew up in August) and if he engaged with the community, it could probably be all hashed out to every one's benefit. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so it is a second offence then! I can likewise guarantee that not a single Arbcom subcommittee will get done over for 15 bob a week. That's not a threat, but an offer of help and support :)

I do not doubt your sincerely belief that you are advising Kiefer in his best interests, but that does not make coercion acceptable. Furthermore, in your reply, you not only presume to know what is best for Kiefer, but also that you know what may or may not "sit well" with the entire editing community! That diverse community ranges from editors for whom Misplaced Pages is an online roleplaying game to those who actually come here to contribute significant content. It is the latter kind of editor that has my respect, and if an editor like Kiefer chooses to spend his volunteered leisure time improving articles rather than engaging in playground politics, then that sits very well with me. Any negative consequences of such a choice reflect badly on Misplaced Pages, not the editor. Geometry guy 18:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, if he decided to ignore the entire proceedings but stuck to editing articles rather than fussing about what other editors have on their userpages and stopped taking the piss out of people's usernames when it clearly annoys them, half of this would go away immediately. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

And the other half? Geometry guy 19:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The other half appears to do with his reaction to political items.... Always a tricky subject for anyone. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

But an important one, and a subject that Misplaced Pages is ill-equipped to handle. It cannot even handle internal disagreement about whether minors should be admins. That aside, thank you for your concise summary of the editing issues you feel KW needs to address. However, no dispute is entirely one-sided: can you also summarize the issues you believe other editors need to address to restore normal working relations? Geometry guy 20:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe in Worm's case he was genuinely nonplussed that his attempts to resolve things amicably got the reception that they did - Kiefer basically treated him like a junior tick and told him to run along and stop bothering his elders and betters. Worm waited to see if he would stop the behaviour that he perceived as a problem, and raised this when he was of the opinion that he hadn't. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen, you have not answered the question. I am not asking you to sympathize with Worm here. Maybe he was an innocent bystander who got caught up in events, and did the right thing.

Instead, I am asking for your concise summary of issues that other editors need to address (Demiurge, for example?). If you believe that no other editor has even been at minor fault at any stage and that no other editor has anything to learn from the dispute, then you are at liberty to state that view. Geometry guy 21:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Geometry guy, this RfC has a large component about how Kiefer behaves towards other people who are not the filing parties. I appreciate that there may be an element of 'when did you stop beating your wife here', but if he wasn't obsessing over the age of certain users and making accusations without supporting evidence, then there would be no reason for the filing parties to interact with him over these issues. If he hadn't behaved like such an arrogant sod (just going on what he typed into the edit box - I've no idea what he's actually like as I've never met him) this could have been sorted out long ago. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Blimey Elen, you must be in politics, as you still haven't answered the question. I didn't say "filing parties". In any dispute it takes two to tango, but rather than showing leadership in dispute resolution, you take a one-sided position, make pointless arguments using counterfactuals, and refer to one party as (oh lets be very careful here per WP:NPA "behaving like") an arrogant sod. Still very disappointed, Geometry guy 21:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you have an odd view of what an RfC/U is for..... Mismatch of expectations perhaps. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I think RfC/U is a structurally flawed process, and my view of it is far more cynical than you imagine. It sets up an asymmetrical relation between involved parties, putting one user on the defensive, while encouraging others to justify the need for the RfC/U by prosecuting their case vigorously. I have no expectations of such a process and would not recommend anyone who does not have a strong masochistic streak to subject themselves to it.

However, you refer to RfC/U as "dispute resolution" and as something beneficial that KW should be "encouraged to engage with" in his own "best interests". So is an RfC/U for dispute resolution, or dispute escalation? Is it a way to help parties reach mutually understanding and agreement with the help of impartial outside observers, or is it a village stocks for slinging mud at arrogant sods and a tick-box on the road to arbitration? Those who claim to believe in the former should at the very least act like they do. In this respect, I find Worm TT's approach to the RfC more admirable and convincing than your own. Geometry guy 22:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

It has the potential to be either. More collegial editors will probably "settle out of court" and avoid things ever getting to this stage, more combative editors will just have a row at this stage, and eventually end up at Arbcom. I'm not sure anyone ever goes away happy, on any side, but sometimes it does defuse a situation, either because the subject changes behaviour/avoids that area/stays away from that person or because the filing party is persuaded that it is not a serious problem really. Sometimes what happens is that the subject brings all their friends, ignores the process, or writes walls of impenetrable text, and the matter goes away for a while, until it blows up and they find themselves banned. Sometimes it is obvious that the filing party is acting in incredibly bad faith, and that blows up in their face. So no, not perfect. But then perfection is only for Allah, or so they say. The rest of us are just human. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for replying more candidly and thoughtfully. Geometry guy 23:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Canvassing?

Perhaps slightly off-topic here: I couldn't help notice that Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics has a notice about the RfCU on KW, even though the dispute involves no mathematics articles or topics. WikiProjects being used as WP:CANVASSing venues is apparently a concern that has been raised for instance in the MfD of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Conservatism, where the Math project was given as a beyond-reproach example of sorts. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 13:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is off-topic to the extent that I was brought to the RfC via KWs talk page, not because of any WikiProject notice. My contact with him is primary as a reviewer who occasionally reviews technical content: KW currently has an article at FAC which I extensively and critically reviewed over the weekend. Geometry guy 22:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

He posted one at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Economics (pretty nearly just as unrelated) as well. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The trouble is that he doesn't fall out with the Maths people - and there isn't a location suitable to advertising to where the problem is Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)...and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Statistics. The vast majority of early contributors are related to these three projects. I did consider mentioning it at the time, but the point of the RfC was to see the community's point of view. David Eppstein's comment, whilst acting as a lighting rod, is a very fair comment - we don't want a lynching here and if Kiefer feels more willing to discuss the issues knowing that a lynching isn't the purpose, then I think it will be a positive outcome.

Having said that, Kiefer's latest response doesn't fill me with confidence. I understand he's travelling for a week, so perhaps he'll have more time to address the concerns after that period... Worm · (talk) 14:02, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I too have noticed that it was mostly editors from those two projects who comment under the view: "I have no opinion on the political disputes described here, but Wolfowitz has performed very valuable service to the encyclopedia bringing mathematical articles ". Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Socialism was not notified however, even though a large part of the dispute was on the pages Socialist Party USA. So it does appear that WP:CANVASSing rules were deliberately bent or ignored by KW. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I would not consider it canvassing to put a neutral notice there, if editors from that project were involved. On another note, I have removed the outrageous sentence from his last comment - I know he probably thought it was funny, but it doesn't meet any definition of humorous in these circumstances. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Enter the protagonist

A few responses. First, I should be informed of discussions like this. Second, some of this discussion would be better at the RfC or its talk page.

Third, I do not "obsess about ages", but I am concerned about minors as administrators, and I consistently take the most paternalistic/responsible (your choice) position in discussions about vulnerable persons. Tough that some dislike this position.

Fourth, the articles related to American socialism were in terrible states when I found them, although they had been worse 5 years ago, and so the relevant projects were immediately suspect as dysfunctional/nonfunctional. Those projects have been useless when I have asked for help related to e.g. Tom Kahn; our brothers and sisters at the LGBT project provided useful feedback for it. I have no reason to expect that an RfC notice at the non--high-functional projects would generate feedback, let alone competent feedback.

Finally, even here, at an ArbCom member's talk page, and at an RfC, "Have mörser, will travel" violates WP:AGF with impunity. At least, he has been ignored (at the RfC 07:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I would agree that this discussion would be better at the RfC talkpage. I can move the whole shebang over there if you wish. As to why you weren't informed of the discussion, I suggest you ask Geometry Guy, as he is the one asking the questions. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

That is very disingenuous. I did not start this thread, nor am I responsible for the portion of it questioning KW's good faith and accusing him of canvassing. Geometry guy 23:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec, reply to KW) Quite. And let me add a couple of observations of my own.

• It is absurd to refer to KW placing a neutral note on WikiProjects where he as contributed as a WP:CANVASS violation. A neutrally-worded notice to a non-partisan audience is not canvassing. If RfC/U is for dispute resolution, not dispute escalation, then inviting comments from other editors familiar with the user's editing should be helpful, not harmful.
• It is an offensive AGF violation to state "Apparently, Kiefer.Wolfowitz has earned the respect of other editors in non-controversial areas, and thought to capitalize on that in this dispute". Is this dispute resolution or dispute escalation?
• "The trouble is that he doesn't fall out with the Maths people". The trouble??!! I'm aghast at the attitude: "okay, so lets try and find some people he does fall out with"! Dispute resolution, or escalation?
• Members of the maths WikiProject have generally responded very responsibly to the notification, not commenting beyond their experience, and in one case providing a rather critical view of KW which KW himself has acknowledged as fair and may learn from. That's dispute resolution. Geometry guy 23:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Canvassing again

Regarding "It is an offensive AGF violation to state 'Apparently, User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz has earned the respect of other editors in non-controversial areas, and thought to capitalize on that in this dispute'". WP:CANVASS also says The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions. Clearly asking only groups who have a good opinion of his work is a breach of that. User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz replied: The articles related to American socialism were in terrible states when I found them, although they had been worse 5 years ago, and so the relevant projects were immediately suspect as dysfunctional/nonfunctional. Those projects have been useless when I have asked for help related to e.g. Tom Kahn; in contrast, our brothers and sisters at the LGBT project provided useful feedback for it." ¶ The articles on cannon (FA!) and gunpowder promoted various WP:FRINGE theories before I edited them in late 2011, and still need some work in that respect. Does that make WP:MILHIST worthless and dysfunctional? Consequently, should I never ask for their opinion on anything? I suppose I could fancy myself as a Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gunpowder of one, and thus supremely entitled to scoff at everyone else, just like KW could be the overlord of the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Democratic Socialism in the USA. His seemingly unmatched expertise entitles him to canvass only experts in Mathematics/Economics/Statistics whenever he has a dispute surrounding his editing of a political party article. ¶ Anyway, after having read WP:DIVA, I scoff at any further involvement of myself in this dispute "resolution"; clearly it won't produce any desirable changes in behavior, but only result in further in-group solidarity and out-group resentment. . Have mörser, will travel (talk) 00:58, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Moerser, writing like this only reduces your credibility. You should try to find counter-examples to statements before pressing the submit button, particularly when you willfully violate WP:AGF despite complaints.

You wrote, "His seemingly unmatched expertise entitles him to canvass only experts in Mathematics/Economics/Statistics whenever he has a dispute surrounding his editing of a political party article."

Your claim is false: For example, in the last days, one of the few articles I contributed to was Socialist Party of America. Reverting an edit from an IP, I suggested that the editor please contact User:Orangemike; he is an honest and knowledgeable person whom I have recommended that people contact Orangemike before this RfC/U: Another reason is that he strongly disliked ("I was not impressed") my initial edits on SDUSA, and identified himself as a supporter of the early SPUSA, while he pegged me as a supporter of SDUSA (a pegging, however plausible, which I disputed).

In this example, and in others, I habitually solicit reviews of political articles from others with different perspectives.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 05:48, 12 October 2011 (UTC) 14:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

KW has stated on the RfC that I accused him of canvassing. I did not do so.

However, a parallel example might help to illuminate the issues raised by User:Have mörser, will travel.

Let's imagine for a moment - and this is actually quite likely - that a user raises an RfC/U or an arbitration case, regarding my editing behaviour on the article Robert Zoellick (the current President of the World Bank). If I wanted to post neutral messages bringing that to the attention of other editors, where would it be sensible for me to post them? Options would include WT:BLPN or WT:DRN, since the issues were discussed on those noticeboards - even though highlighting such processes is not really the purpose of those pages. Alternatively, there would be relevant WikiProjects like Economics or Politics or Business or United States. Finally, I could consider mentioning it at WikiProject Aviation and WikiProject Military History. Although these latter two projects have absolutely no relevance to the issues involved, and their participants unlikely to know anything about them, some of the participants are likely to know plenty about my editing style, since I spend a fair amount of time working on articles in those projects, helping people get their articles to GA or A-class, and so on.

But, in this not-so-hypothetical example, imagine if I posted to WikiProject Aviation and WikiProject Military History and no other projects at all... perhaps explaining that I hadn't found the other Wikiprojects very useful in certain past disputes I'd had? Would that be the best thing to do? Or would it be a bit misguided? A bit slanted?

KW has slipped up on this talk page and given away some of his thinking. He says to Worm; 'What do you think would have happened if I started quoting your opponents, and then, per WP:Policy, "had to" contact them'. (A suggestion that he follows with the idea of opening a retaliatory RfC/U on Worm. How constructive.) Curiously enough, KW does indeed seem to have been contacting a few people that he might imagine would give him some support - mostly people whom he's just happened to mention, mostly in passing, in this RfC. The last is particularly interesting; a much more subtle request for attention, to a user whose userpage states that they are a National Socialist. Maybe Worm is just wise to be not so interested in all this politics malarkey.

Where the people KW has contacted haven't commented on the RfC - or not in the way he desires - he's gone on to give them a few "reminders", whether subtly or not so subtly. KW has also put a little time into badgering those who have given opinions on the RfC/U that he doesn't approve of; includes lovely accusations of "dishonest hypocrisy", and, when I dare to reply, describes my comments as "childish bullshit".

KW accompanied this rather large number of requests - and remember this is all in addition to his rather curious choice of Wikiprojects to notify - by a single mention to a person that he might argue were not so friendly; . Although actually he had already said that Cerejota and himself had exchanged "declarations of mutual respect". So... overall, a distinctly non-neutral choice of individuals to notify, and some concerns about the projects to notify. Not good.

I'm sorry to make this a case of "what Worm did versus what Kiefer did", but the comparison must be made. Worm went to some trouble to seek feedback from uninvolved administrators about whom he should inform of this RfC/U. The feedback was that people discussed significantly should be informed, and the others should not; and therefore I informed only Peter on his talk page, and Rd232 by private email (he's retired). We also informed those people who asked privately to be told when the RfC/U was completed (two, I think; neither have commented). Peter, who has probably been hardest hit personally by KW's outrageous behaviour, certified the basis for the RfC/U, but chose not to comment further (thus far). Rd232 is still retired, and does not wish to change that. (I don't believe it's appropriate for me to quote his private comments here, but, given KW's behaviour, the tone of those comments can be imagined.)

Now, since then, at least one of the people that Worm and I expressly decided not to inform, based on the advice Worm was given, has now been criticised and condemned - not just regarding their relevant comments, but their editing and status on Misplaced Pages as a whole - by KW. Who (surprise, surprise) didn't inform them when doing so. So I suppose I shall go and inform them.

While unfortunately non-neutral contacting of editors does happen with situations like this, and it's "no big deal", I feel that the way KW has handled this does go some way towards explaining mörser's concerns. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Du, it is okay for you to announce that you shall contacting editors. It would have been better for you to do so earlier; Worm/David has already apologized for failing to contact editors, per you apparent agreement.

Lihaas collects contradictory user boxes ad absurdum, as anybody looking at his page can observe. He has never violated NPOV editing main-space content, in my experience, and so that your speculating about his personal politics, particularly when he has more than a hundred contradictory user boxes is another violation of WP:NPA.

Your behavior confirms the judgment I made long ago, that it is demeaning to discuss anything with you.

I am done here until this piece of shit is removed.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about his personal politics. I said what it says on his userpage - which isn't, incidentally, especially easy to read. So the Nazi thing is a joke, is it? Some people might not think it a particularly funny one. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Lihaas uses the National Socialist tag three times in userboxen on his page. I fear Kiefer.Wolfowitz cannot tell the difference between irony and political statement - lihaas's statements that he supports National Socialism, Self Determination and the British Empire neatly positions him between the British National Party and the English Defence League - both of which I am regrettably familiar with in my neck of West Yorkshire. I would excuse Kiefer.Wolfowitz from ignorance about the resurgence of such attitudes in recent times, if it wasn't that by watching episodes of Wallander I am aware that issues such as racism and the rise of far right groups are a regular topic of discussion in Sweden. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Just as a point of information, User:Lihaas actually has five personalized (i.e., using {{userbox}}) userboxes with the "NS" label. The other two express support for:

• Devolution ("the statutory granting of powers from the central government of a sovereign state to government at a subnational level, such as a regional, local, or state level") which seems to be related to the support for Self determination ("the principle in international law that nations have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or external interference")
• the recreation of a "Greater Hindustan" (the Indian subcontinent, currently India, Pakistan and Bangladesh), which may or may not be related to support for the recreation of the British Empire.

Other political userboxes partially clarify the contradiction between the two positions, while raising further questions. Locally, there is support for Cornish independence/autonomy, Scottish and Welsh independence, Irish republicanism, but also the reunification of Ireland and British federal state. On a more international level, there seems to be support for almost every independence movement there is (Basque Country, Kurdish State, Vojvodina, Quebec independence and the US annexation of Canada, Palestine as part of a federal state, Nagorno-Karabakh, Silesia, Flemish independence/break-up of Belgium, Faroe Islands and Greenland, Transnistria, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Abkhazia and South Ossetia,...). We also have a user claiming to be a nomadic indo-aryan and hindu from Pakistan/Punjab/Lahore and India/Gujarat/Mumbai (speaking some Hindi, Gujurati and Urdu), mildly critical of political correctness, with support for nationalism, fascism, libertarianism, classical liberalism, masculism, anarchism, anarcho-capitalism, the death penalty, sweatshops, redrawing the map of Africa, anti-globalization, Wikileaks, world peace, space warface, and a huge number of international political parties, while opposing the war in Iraq, Kemalism, imperialism (apart from possibly British and Japanese), the United Nations, and the EU.

How does that "neatly position him between the BNP and the EDL"?? Why are the NS userboxes so worthy of comment and stereotyping? I mean, we are dealing with an alcoholic anarchist here!

I was particularly upset by the support for Silvio Berlusconi, which either shows terrible judgment, or an overly developed sense of irony (which is not permitted on Misplaced Pages). Fortunately, the user also supports good grammar and Oxford English (as well as DGAF and not taking themselves seriously) so they redeemed themselves in my eyes. Geometry guy 23:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Movement?

To all - I really think that this conversation should be on the talkpage of the RfC. Should I move it over? Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

• I don't have a strong view. The canvassing part, at least, could usefully be copied over. Geometry guy 23:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
• I think that it should be moved to the talk page of the RfC. However, "Have Moeser, Will Travel" should consider deleting remarks that can be viewed as non-constructive.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
• I'm horribly busy today, so I doubt I'll be able comment much anywhere, but I wanted to say that I agree that it should be moved to the RfC talk page - as it is a discussion of the RfC, and anyone participating should also be aware. Worm · (talk) 08:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of RfC topics

I thought it'd be easier to follow some threaded discussion on specific topics here, since the RfC has become something of a wall of text. Worm · (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Top section

I see there has been a lot of focus on the first few lines of the RfC, the topics that the RfC was not covering. I feel this was a mistake on my part - the intention was to give the RfC focus, to ensure that the areas at the top were mentioned quickly but not gone in depth - thereby stopping the areas being brought up over and over again ad nauseum. In other words, I was specifically trying to ensure the RfC did not become a lynching (and I'd like to mention that so far, it appears to have worked - none of the issues mentioned at the top have detracted from the RfC).

However, I can see that from a different point of view, it appears I was showing KW in an unfair light and that was not my intention. I wholeheartedly apologise for giving that impression Worm · (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Mocking of usernames

This is a particular bugbear of mine, not something I believe Demiurge1000 has ever commented on. However, I doubt I'm the only person who has an issue with Kiefer bastardising usernames, as Strange Passerby specifically struck it. Even throughout this RfC, Keifer referred to Demiurge1000 as "DemiUrge1000". Now, "Half a desire" is quite a different meaning to Demiurge, something Kiefer himself linked to - clearly understanding the difference. This combined with comments Kiefer has made comparing me directly with a worm show significant incivility, be it intentional or not. Worm · (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Given that KW has been doing in this very RfC the stuff he had been asked to stop doing, the RfC clearly has zero chance of neutering the obnoxious aspects of his behaviors. Like I observed above, this RfC is a giant waste of time if resolution is what is expected. Ignoring his puns seems the only option; the alternative being what happened to the guy with the sonnets, which is clearly overkill in KW's case for now. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 21:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Moerser,

Please go away, as you said you would. It is cruel to raise my hopes and then dash them by returning and delivering a "neuter" remark, which is weird and pointless even for you.

Why do you think that anybody cares what you think?

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Worm and Demiurge,

Your latest research from WikiProject Kiefer.Wolfowitz is even more exciting than previous research reports, but it still remains ridiculous.

I spell Demiurge as DemiUrge because that is how I pronounce the word, and I find it easier to read this capitalization. Returning to that first course in programming, where "indexing errors" are discussed, there is a general principal to capitalize words in this pattern (which apparently is based on some experimental results about readability of programs). I typically capitalize the words incorporated in weird, multi-syllable names, and no other user has cared.

Is this a madhouse?

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Let's tone things down a little. Worm, and at least one other person, didn't like the fact that you repeatedly use usernames as a way to mock people. Not talking about a few instances (as was the case with my rather harsh comments on a certain person's rather arrogant choice of username), but about half a dozen or more instances. What was the aim of it? To keep on doing it until someone over-reacted? Or what? Either way, I've never complained about it myself (much less whined about it, as you said on the RfC), and if it makes it easier for you - for whatever reason - to use my username in a strange variant of camelcaps, then I have no objection to that.

As regards mörser (sorry to truncate the username, is this OK?), they have a viewpoint about the RfC that actually coincides with the viewpoint of one or two other people. I don't think there's a good reason to say they shouldn't comment, and in fact they have added some opinions that are quite useful. I do hope they would be more optimistic, though :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Moerser and his tenderness about names.

(1) I shan't be bothered writing (with my American keyboard) his non-English vowel on English Misplaced Pages or typing his full "pay attention to me, please" user name.

(2) You should know that "oe" is the English spelling of the nordic vowel. Now go jump in Da. Jones's locker.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

My username. No, seriously?

KW has presented his interpretation of what my username means (with the added nicety of "blasphemous egomaniac") so a little clarification is needed. (Save yourself 100 seconds if you aren't interested.)

Demiurge is a Greek word meaning worker or craftsman (with its origins being closer to a more lowly form of "civil servant"). In the Misplaced Pages sense, it pretty much means wikignome - because that's what I was mostly doing when I created this account; just reading things and making small corrections whenever I saw a need for them.

Now, one of the things I was reading and gnoming at the time was in fact our article Demiurge, which is a philosophical concept of "an artisan-like figure" (says the article), which although it was later adopted by some obscurer sects of Christianity, has never really signified The Creator in the sense that the western Christian tradition views God. In fact, many of the sects considered the Demiurge to be an evil, neutral, or just disinterested entity, and the benevolent God to be entirely separate. I've never known any theists have the least concern over my username.

The username User:Demiurge was already taken (and I'm quite sure that editor was not a blasphemous egomaniac either), so I was stuck with the silly numbers on the end. And I've often considered a rename to something better, especially since being called "Demi" can lead to some confusion about my gender, but that's something else that's never quite reached the top of my list of priorities. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I find this a pretty minor issue to be concerned about, but not because I don't understand.

Usernames are one of the few forms of self-expression available to anonymous editors, yet we manipulate and abbreviate our own and other editors' usernames all the time. I tried for years to explain that I preferred abbreviations such as "Gguy", "G-guy", "G'guy" and "G guy" to "GG", because I am a person and not a horse. Yet editors persisted in abbreviating my username to "GG". I felt entitled to be irritated by this because it meant either they were deliberately trying to wind me up, or they just didn't care enough to treat me more respectfully. I never really got irritated however, and after spending some time away from Misplaced Pages, I came to the conclusion that advertising my preference was WP:BEANS, and that among all the things that are wrong with Misplaced Pages, editors calling me "GG" is so utterly trivial that I really don't care.

Among others, Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Worm have both referred to me as "GG" on my userpage recently. I never invited either of them (or indeed anyone) to use this abbreviation, but they both did. However, if it bothered me at all now, I would immediately conclude that I had lost my sense of perspective, and would log out at once to spend my leisure time on something other than Misplaced Pages. Geometry guy 23:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely. DU (which KW only adopted recently, I think) and DemiUrge (again, he only started using this recently?) are not a big issue. As I've said above, "Demi" (not used by KW, as far as I know) is a misunderstanding of who I am, but it's a misunderstanding that is my own fault, and used in good faith.

Misunderstandings that are used to taunt, are not quite the same thing. If something were used once in anger, I would totally understand - people get angry sometimes, they say things in anger. When it's used over and over and over again, one has to wonder what the aim is. Whether the aim is to provoke a reaction.

I should stress that the person "concerned about" my username is KW (he thinks some people might see my username as me being a "blasphemous egomaniac"). If even a few people think that my username is disruptive - even slightly - then I'll change it. But thus far, those people don't exist. I don't like these attempts to provoke problems where no problems exist. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps Kiefer.Wolfowitz would be good enough to offer an olive branch and voluntarily retire the use of insulting variations on editors' names such as "DemiWit"? That would allow us to put this issue to rest, I think. 28bytes (talk) 05:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi 28bytes,

First, I have not used "DemiWit" for some months, even in responding to this human Ouroboros.

Let me make explicit what was has been implicit in months of behavior: I agree that I should not have written DemiWit. However, 28bytes, would you examine the predecessor message(s) in those exchanges from Demiurge and agree that he crossed the incivility/AGF/NPA rules also, and perhaps even first. (My memory is that he always did, but memories "can be deceptive".)

Ciao,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 06:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I do think that some of the "predecessor messages" you refer to were, at best, unhelpful and unnecessarily provocative. 28bytes (talk) 07:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

KW, I must say that I use camel case every day work, programming in Java. This is the first time I've heard it used in the middle of a word because of it's pronunciation, rather than when two words are concatenated. However, I'm probably making more of an issue of this than it needs to be. If you will agree to be more aware regarding usernames in the future, then I will certainly agree that whole matter is resolved.

Also, Geometry Guy, I called you GG as other people had already done so on the page - my apologies, I'll keep that in mind for the future Worm · (talk) 06:30, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

As I said, I don't mind: many editors find "GG" short and convenient. However, if you really want to impress me with your alertness to username delicacies, notice that I never capitalize the "g" in "guy" in either my username or its abbreviations. Geometry deserves the capital, but I'm just a regular guy. :) Geometry guy 23:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Request regarding KW's comments

Hi Kiefer - I've been trying to read through your comments on the main page and I'm having a little difficulty due to the flow of the layout. Would you consider removing (or hiding) the copy/paste from the previous dispute resolution - since the vast majority of points were not raised here as they'd already either been resolved or were not worth mentioning. You are of course welcome to leave your response however you like, but I thought I'd ask anyway. Worm · (talk) 11:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

On Tuesday or Wednesday I shall more time.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, I appreciate that. I'll keep my participation to a minimum until that point. Worm · (talk) 12:37, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I really lack the time and inclination to read your RfC, and most of my edits respond to outside views. It seems useful to remind outside viewers that I did respond to your previous draft RfC (at which time you quit) and that your previous draft RfC was even worse than this; outside readers should understand the personal attacks that you have been making, usually in passive-aggressive paraphrase ("KW uses copyright violation tagging to advance his political agenda. Note to self: I should check whether this is true, after posting this on Misplaced Pages." Alas, you never did get around to withdrawing your personal attack, did you?).

You seem to have been surprised at the reaction of the community, given that you mentioned a "lambasting" on a talk page, and are still complaining that I said that you didn't know what you were doing---which I said not to insult you but to try to make you think. I would bet that you have zero experience in debates, zero experience in politics, and probably negligible interest in politics---for, otherwise, why would you go after me with the insipid passive-aggressive manner that Robert Dole used in his last debate with Bill Clinton. You should go watch Liam Neeson's performance in Taken and consider yourself lucky that I have downgraded your category from promising youngster to only "not worth my time".  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC) I would have hoped that Elen, who does have some experience, had written to you privately and asked you to think of the possible consequences of your actions: So far, you have harmed your credibility and promising charm with a lot of serious editors who probably looked towards you as a future leader of Misplaced Pages.

What do you think would have happened if I started quoting your opponents, and then, per WP:Policy, "had to" contact them, or what would happen if somebody opened an RfC on you?

It's a pity that we don't do this on a Skype video conference, and we could all witness how well you answer questions, when called to account for all this passive aggressive bullshit.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Now, hang on - the "draft RfC" as you keep calling it was designed to be just between you and me, I thought using the RfC format would help. I told no one of it, I explicitly suggested that it was a private matter between you and me. No one else commented on it or was likely to view it and yet you used to request sanctions! It was clear that you were not looking to discuss the matter with me in an informal manner, so I looked into doing this formally.

As has been well documented on this RfC, you do accuse people of copyvios incorrectly when upset regarding articles that do not fit your political opinion. Your article work in these political areas is great, I've said that a number of times, but the way you've treated the editors who have done nothing more than hold the opposing opinion is unacceptable. I didn't withdraw it because I still believe it to be true.

Regarding your opinion of me, I couldn't give a damn. I keep such things off wikipedia and so I'm not going to get drawn into discussions regarding my political leanings or my expertise. There are valid issues here and this whole things would go away if you actually had the decency of responding to criticism without escalating. Worm · (talk) 13:37, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

And Kiefer, I welcome feedback and criticism. I'd certainly welcome you finding my "opponents" and discussing my faults. You might have some difficulty, because I don't consider wikipedia a battleground and I don't think I have "opponents". Keep an eye out in January, I expect I'll be putting an editor review up around then, feel free to bring anyone along you want at that time. Worm · (talk) 13:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I've had a little time to think on these comments from Kiefer and I do hope he redacts them in the future, as they yet again step over the line from incivility to outright personal attacks. Thinking back, I find it ironic that he's willing to call me "passive aggressive" and that I'm not worth his time, yet he specifically has chastised me for suggesting that he should tone down the "aggression".

Clearly Kiefer has difficulties with concepts such as commenting on the content, not the contributor or other forms of dispute resolution. The thoroughly depressing thing is that this whole sorry affair could have been avoided - and still can be quickly finished - if Kiefer were to accept that there are valid issues which have been raised and discussed them. This alienation of editors who are only trying to help will end badly. Worm · (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Worm/David, please review what I wrote before addressing me again. You are welcome to address others, of course. Thanks!  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer, I have gone to great lengths to not only review what you've written, but also to make this process as pain-free for you as possible, though I am beginning to wonder why. You have made a fair number of accusations on both this and the talk page - some of which are inaccurate, whilst others are patently false. I wonder if you might go to the effort of providing WP:Diffs for any accusations you wish to make, as I have. They are, after all, the standard method the community uses to point to further information and can help with any memory troubles you may be having.

Perhaps you would even do us all the favour of not attempting to add your particular flavour of humour into the proceedings, as it appears to be straying into the realm of personal attacks . If you do persist with personal attacks, I will take the matter up at AN/I, where a neutral administrator can look over your comments. I am loathed to take that step, please do not force me down that route. Worm · (talk) 22:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

If I "persist in personal attacks ..."! And your personal attacks and the personal attacks of the others?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:17, 16 October 2011 (UTC

(edit conflict)You are of course free to do the same - should you feel there are personal attacks on yourself. However, I would certainly advise you to use diffs (see Help:Diff), as people at AN/I do require them. I do not believe I have made a single personal attack on you yet you have made a number on me (the two most recent shown in my previous comment). Perhaps you see all criticism as personal attacks? I suggest you read a bit more about what a personal attack is - see WP:NPA. If you can provide a diff where I have made a personal attack on you, then I will gladly look into it further. I note that you have added a total of one diff to this RfC, not counting the ones you copied from elsewhere. Considering the amount of text you've added, that's quite appalling. Worm · (talk) 09:05, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

With the usual distaste but unusual fortitude, I did read Worm/David's comments. Let me respond:

1. RE Diffs. I am writing for encyclopedia writers, not for persons so intellectually lazy---and, for administrators, also so malfeasant or malfeasant in their duties---that they would make a decision (whether endorsing a partial statement or acting at ANI) without examining your diffs and looking around a bit. Anybody who does look around can see that you and Du have been cherry-picking diffs, often after Du has delivered a personal attack on me and before I (often with the pacifying leadership from others, ) have established peace.

   Anybody who reads the page can see that you opened your statement with a bush-league list for which you have finally apologized, but only after it exploded in your face. You shall have to live with the consequences of your opening passive-aggressive bullshit for a long time. Everybody can see that you and Du developed that opening passive-aggressive bullshit over at least 2 months (despite my suggestion that you consult with somebody with experience and focus on a few issues).

2. Go to ANI or do whatever you want. As I wrote before, I really don't care. Again, any serious administrator will look around at the diffs you provided and judge your character and Du's, accordingly. That Geometry guy has independently discussed personal attacks against me should give any administrator with a functioning brain-stem pause.

Seriously,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:56, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

My participation in this farce is over

I have participated here long enough that the content of my character and the others' personalities has been established.

At the repeated and increasingly insistent advice of friends, I shall retired, and let others answer for me.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

That would be unfortunate, but if it is the case I'm sure we can carry on without you. Worm · (talk) 09:09, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

The next section is quoted from my user page.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:52, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of "National socialist"

Kiefer.Wolfowitz, I fear you cannot tell the difference between irony and political statement - lihaas's statements that he supports National Socialism, Self Determination and the British Empire neatly positions him between the British National Party and the English Defence League - both of which I am regrettably familiar with in my neck of West Yorkshire. I'm sorry, I think you've been had. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen,

I remind you that WP:NPA prohibits unsubstantiated allegations about an editor's politics.

I can imagine that Lihaas displays far-right userboxes to provoke hypocritical hissy fits, which you and Demiurge have provided.

• Was it Lihaas's country where the King had to abdicate largely because of hanging out with Nazis?
• What is Lihaas's country where a PM worried about being overun with Blacks, although there was not a single Black MP, according to Michael Dummett?
• Was it Lihaas's country where the President 41 led his campaign rallies with a national socialist (but also Christian socialist) pledge of allegiance?
• Was it Lihaas's country that presented a sword to Pinochet for saving civilization?
• "Tell me, my main man, what is wrong with Michael Jackson? What is wrong with your country that a Black man cuts up his face and straightens his hair?" (Three Kings)

Lihaas has been one of the prime writers of articles in contemporary politics, among them articles on the Arab Spring. Demiurge smeared him as a Nazi, as part of his smear campaign against me.

You have no business participating in this smear campaign. Look at the company you are now keeping, Demiurge and Pedro, and wake up. You still have not apologized for signing off on that RfC with the bullshit opening of non-issues.

If you can do all this, without an apology or consequences, then Misplaced Pages can go to Hell along with you.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

We're already in it. L'enfer, c'est les autres ... /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 02:03, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

v t e Underworlds
	Abrahamic	Christianity Abyss Hades Hell Lake of fire Limbo Outer darkness Purgatory Islam Barzakh Jahannam Sijjin Judaism Abaddon Azazel Bosom of Abraham Dudael Gehenna Sheol Tehom Tzoah Rotachat Mandaeism World of Darkness
	American	Aztec Mictlān Maya Xibalba
	East Asian	Chinese Diyu Gate of the Ghosts Youdu Shinto Yomi
	Indian	Naraka Buddhism Bardo Naraka Hinduism Naraka Patala Jainism Naraka
	Near East	Egyptian Duat Mesopotamian Irkalla Zoroastrianism Duzakh Hamistagan
	European	Norse Hel Náströnd Niflheim Niflhel Greek / Roman Asphodel Meadows Elysium Erebus Fortunate Isles Hades Orcus Tartarus Welsh Annwn Finnic Tuonela
	Others	Davy Jones's locker Hell Turkic Tamag

Continuation

Kiefer.Wolfowitz, what on earth is the above set of statements about? I am making no "unsubstantiated allegations about an editor's politics." I simply note that the user has chosen to place a number of userboxen on his userpage which make political statements that are consistent with the manifestos of the BNP and the EDL. If it were only the latter two statements, then this would be consistent with the manifesto of UKIP, but UKIP holds no truck with national socialism. You are the one who "imagines" that these are not simple statements of his political position, but instead represent some elaborate game. I don't know the chap, I can only go on what he chooses to say. If he's using some clever definition of National Socialism that separates it from Nazism, point me to the edits where he does it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen,

Both Geometry guy and I have explained that Lihaas displays more than a hundred of wildly inconsistent user boxes, so you and Du have been violating WP:NPA by picking a couple extreme right-wing boxes, as you continue to do. As I have explained, I am unaware of any POV-pushing by him, and certainly none on behalf of national socialism, as we understand it today (not as in the Bellamy brothers Looking Backwards or the Pledge of Allegiance). In my limited experience, he has been attacked by those (at best) acquiescing to (and at worst ...) nationalist violence.

A month or so ago he was blocked, after a cry in anguish at the seeming disregard of non-American victims of war on Misplaced Pages. It would be very strange for him to support parties advocating discrimination (or practicing physical battery) against Muslims, Middle-Easterners, Arabs, Indians, Pakistanis, etc.

Again, I remind you of his writing about the Arab Spring, including articles describing attempts to overthrow nationalistic, militaristic dictatorships, such as the Baath dictatorship in Syria, which was started by French-schooled enthusiasts of European fascism. I am truly sorry that you continue to defend the national-socialist charge.

Cannot you imagine your husband a friend shaking his head at your stubbornness, yet again?

Finally, let me quote from the Gawain poet the line to which I previously referred:

'Maskelles,' quod that myry quene,

'Unblemyst I am, wythouten blot,

And that may I wyth mensk menteene;

Bot "makeles quene" thenne sade I not.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz (forgot to sign, 16:57, 23 October 2011 (UTC))

Can I recommend you not make personal remarks about my husband. It makes you sound creepy, and I'm sure you did not intend anything like that.

As for Lihaas, I think the subtlety of his position is lost on you. The chap must be very interesting - given that most people in that neck of politics only use their heads to bash holes in walls. What's on his userpage isn't a random collection of userboxen, it's based on a consistent political viewpoint (although I had to think quite a bit about the British Empire one) which is right wing, libertarian, anarchist (not all anarchists are left wing), nationalist (but globally nationalist, hence anti globalization and interest in nationalist movements around the globe), anti positive discrimination (consistent with libertarianism), anti organisations that have control over multiple countries such as the EU and NATO (consistent with libertarianism and nationalism). None of these are personal attacks - before you say it - they are just based on his edits, his statements, and knowing as much as I do about politics. If you think the edit that got him blocked was "a cry in anguish at the seeming disregard of non-American victims of war" then you really have been had. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen,

About the "husband". I quoted a middle-English poem as a compliment/olive-branch, intending makelesse as matchless, as it is ordinarily translated. Elen noted the other (sometimes primary) meaning, as unmarried or widowed, and introduced her husband. Then I tried to clarify that I was referring to the matchless meaning as in Pearl....

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:52, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Another voice

A plausible interpretation Ellen, and it would be interesting to be corrected by Lihass themselve, but just as likely the boxes are merely playfully mischievous. Or perhaps they reflect an attempt to transcend apparently contradictory positions. Whatever, their editing clearly shows they are not the sort of person to side with national socialism!

Keifer, one thing I am sure about with our friend Lihass is that they're sharp enough to know their user box collection will cause some to make false assumptions, and if they were bothered about that they wouldn't have certain boxes. So I hope you don't make this a quitting issue. FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Feyd!

There have to be some minimal standards of honesty. I am willing to grant the usual portion of hypocricy to other editors that I wish to claim for myself. I am willing to grant XXXL portions to those who reminisce about spankings in British public schools, where they had great practice in the gentile arts of subtle insults and postures of effortless superiority. However, some standards of honesty must prevail.

I am tired of being lectured about civility and NPA and threatened with ANI by an ArbCom member who defends a sociopathic smearing of a valuable editor as a Nazi.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:14, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Im just old enough not to have missed out on that strangely agreable bodily experience . Never saw the point of subtle insults though. I put 'literal minded' in my edit summary as I was thinking maybe that accounts for the absurd assumption and its defence, rather than dishonesty? It will be very sad if we do loose you over this. That said I edit less myself than I used to and I dont miss the specatacle of regularly seeing some of the best editors being attacked. So whatever you decide Im sure it will be for the best. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:43, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I had the advantage of attending a girls school, where corporal punishment was considered beyond the pale. As for Lihaas, as you say, he put the things on his page himself - I'm sure he's able and willing to take care of any fallout from them and doesn't need quite such an avid defence. The only thing I would say is that I have never called him a Nazi. I would probably disagree with the political views espoused in most of the userboxen, but none of them necessarily make him a Nazi.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen,

As an ArbCom member and administrator, you are an officer of Misplaced Pages. It is unseemly and unbecoming for you to fail to have distanced yourself from a suggestion that Lihaas is a national socialist, based on the standard "reasonable person" test; it is worse that you have been defending the smear.

Is Misplaced Pages a place where non-writers smear leading writers as national socialists? Or anybody smears anybody as a national socialist?

Unfortunately, your actions, so far, have answered that question affirmatively.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:06, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

And you still have not addressed the issue about your WP:NPA violation of unsubstantiated allegations about politics, or the issue about your signing off "regretfully" for the RfC without even Worm's apologies for its passive-aggressive opening.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz, you have stopped making any sense at all. If a man puts a sign in his window saying he votes Conservative, I assume he votes Conservative. I don't agree with the politics of the conservative party, but it's not an attack to say that this man has a sign in his window supporting the Conservatives. Lihaas has a sign in his window supporting Antonin Scalia, and the Scalia/Thomas presidential run, Jobbik, National Union Attack, and the Popular Orthodox Rally. He says he is a libertarian and an anarchist - a recognised political position, see the article on Anarcho-capitalism which he also says he espouses. He says he is a nationalist who believes in Self-determination. This is perfectly consistent with his opposition to big government, and organisations such as NATO and the UN, and his support for such causes as Irish Republicanism, and the Turkish man who set fire to himself as a protest against continual police harassment. It also explains his comments on the ITN about the Tottenham riots . Like I said - they are not a mishmash of random boxes, they look to me like a consistent, thought out fairly unique political position. If his actual one is the reverse of what the userboxen represents, he maybe needs to say that a bit louder.

I am going to end this conversation now. You are not making sense any more - at least to me, and you are simply becoming abusive. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen,

You neglect to consider the wildly contradictory boxes he has. In particular, anybody supporting Scalia/Thomas cannot be a libertarian or anarchist. Those two dissented, finding no "cruel and unusual punishment" about a prisoner having his face smashed in, while in police custody.

Thank you for explaining (with links!) that anarchism and libertarianism is a recognized political philosophy.

Again, you have failed to deal with your problem behavior, such as spreading an allegation of national socialism.

Further, you show a shortcoming of empathic imagination: Lihaas was concerned about the lack of attention to 10s and 100s of thousands and even of millions of victims of war (when they do not have a whiter shade of pale), and the attention given to a handful, 10s, and 100s of American or British victims; I disagree with his tactics, but I understand his concerns. (It is a pity that no editor is similarly complaining about the effects EU tariffs on Africa and Asia, which kill even more people.)

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

And another voice

Kiefer. Your relentless complaining about personal attacks and citing WP:NPA is in direct opposition to the very specific personal attaks both further up this page but specifically here where you directly called an editor a "contemptible shit". Hypocrisy is not a pleasing trait. Please feel free to remove this - but also please feel free to stop moaning about something you do - and have done recently - making personal attacks when you're just as guilty. People, houses, glass and stones.. Pedro :  Chat  17:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Pedro,

Reasoned responses and criticism are welcome. The account mentioned made the allegation of national socialism, which you apparently think is consistent with WP policy. (For the record and in your response to your posting at the RfC, I remind readers that you are claiming that stating that User:SandyGeorgia is "courting the Misplaced Pages fraternity", etc., is not sexist.)

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, I'm really not sure what you mean by the above. Let's make it a little more simple for us all. You have repeatedly accused editors of Personal Attacks. You, I assume, find Personal Attacks unacceptable. But you, in the diff I link above, made a personal attack. You are acting like a hypocrite and the evidence is for all to see. The wise man would recognise their hypocrisy and at least apologise for it, in order that proper debate about other perceived issues can resume without the taint of dishonesty hanging overhead. Just my 2p. You noted once on your talk that "adding value" was a good thing. Well I believe I am adding value when I point out that you cannot, in all honesty, continue to complain about perceived attacks when you, with the language of the gutter, are also guilty. Pedro :  Chat  18:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Pedro,

The "editor" smeared a valuable WP writer as a national socialist, and earned his rebuke.

Now, please consider whether further discussion between us can be more fruitful.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

You called someone a "contemptible shit" (which you seem to think is a rebuke - how laughable); your sanctimonious hypocrisy is revealing. As I said at your RFC/U this is clearly a hobby you're not cut out for. I'd suggest that instead of "retiring" in a hissy fit as you did before, your actually retire properly. It would be better for you and, frankly, likely better for Misplaced Pages. With that I shall now "go away" I think your "go away" message was frankly more honest than the softened version you changed it to. Pedro :  Chat  19:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz, when you return from Planet Janet, then maybe discussion is possible. In the meantime, it is impossible to find any of your posts where you don't sound like your head has exploded. You seem to have come apart at the seams. Please take a break, leave this stupid bone you are worrying at behind, and come back to contributing content with a fresh enthusiasm. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, in English, "courting" has two meanings. The older, but still very much in use meaning of "to court" or "to pay court to" originates with the practice of attending upon the court of the king or a nobleman, in the hopes of gaining some advantage thereto. The word then also came to mean paying attention to a girl you hoped to marry, but describing someone as "courting favour with the boss", "courting the Press" (as Princess Diana did) etc has no sexual component whatsoever. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Pedro and Elen,

Calling anybody a national socialist (Nazi) is not a small matter. Calling Lihaas a national socialist was outrageous. A lack of indignation is a sign of a lack of knowledge or a character defect (among other causes).

Any reasonable contemporary person understands that "courting the fraternity" sounds like a sexist jibe.

Secretly exulting,

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Yep, my little girl (she was three in August) "secretly exults" too. You're a troll Keifer and you're going to get blocked then banned if you carry on. That's not a threat; it won't be me that does it - it will be you causing it however. Trust me I've seen enough people on Misplaced Pages who think that their intelligence means their inability to interact socially will win through. It doesn't. Take a break (maybe a week) and come back to what you're good at if you wish. If you don't, you're going to wind up on the INDEF pile and that would be a shame. Pedro :  Chat  20:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Pedro,

I leave your post because it does contain some nuggets of good will, despite the "troll", "inability to interact socially", etc.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:28, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Regretfully the "troll" and "inability to interact socially" are how you're coming over mate. A rational person would realise that a simple "Yep, I screwed up and apologise for calling someone a shit - that was a heated over-reaction" response would be easier on us all. You clearly are rational - but you're not being at the moment, and haven't been for some time. Honestly, no-one wants to see an editor who contributes like you do banned; but you need to start developing a thicker skin and not seeing stuff you want to see. Pedro :  Chat  20:36, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Pedro, Kiefer, everyone else, just stop replying here. Kiefer.Wolfowitz says he is now retired. That means we can leave him alone now, because he's leaving us alone. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

"Planet Janet"

Elen's insult "Planet Janet", about an emotionally troubled teenage girl, was new to me. Here's the lede of the Janet Dillon article.

"Janet Dillon (née Marlowe, previously Green, and often referred to as Janet From Another Planet) is a fictional character on the daytime soap opera All My Children. Mostly known for terrorizing the residents of Pine Valley, including her sister Natalie Marlowe, while under psychotic delusions, Janet has had extended periods of sanity, which she and her psyche have been studied within scholarly contexts.

1. Jennifer Hayward (1997). Consuming pleasures: active audiences and serial fictions from Dickens to soap opera. University Press of Kentucky. pp. 228 pages. isbn 081312025X, 9780813120256. Retrieved October 12, 2011.
2. Dorothy Catherine Anger (1999). Other worlds: society seen through soap opera G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. University of Toronto Press. pp. 1718 pages. isbn 1551111039, 9781551111032. Retrieved October 12, 2011.
3. TV Guide, Volume 54. Triangle Publications (Original from Indiana University). 2006. isbn 1551111039, 9781551111032. Retrieved October 12, 2011.

"

Apparently, Planet Janet also the name of a series of young adult novels about an EMO teenage girl, who has conflicts with older authority figures.

It will be interesting how Elen's bullshit plays at her next ArbComm election.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:13, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Quoted from talk page of Du

This is quoted from the talk page of Demiurge1000.

KF

This was about a disgusting an edit summay violating NPA as it gets. Regretfully I'm not able to take action. Apologies for that. Pedro :  Chat  20:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly as he said. Worm · (talk) 20:10, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm apparently a jerk that must be removed, as well. Or at least, that's one of the options.

It's all increasingly puzzling. I had realised there was something strange about the KW-Lihaas connection when I saw that Lihaas was the one single editor, out of all the ones he contacted, that KW very carefully sought to bring in without openly mentioning that it was the RfC/U that he wanted comments on. It stood out like a sore thumb. And of course I knew that KW had gone to some lengths to defend Lihaas in the past. (Needs a fair bit of defending - AE block for violating sanctions on a political topic, a block for soapboxing at WP:ITN/C, and two other blocks for edit warring.) But I definitely wasn't expecting a huge explosion like this, over a simple and easily provable statement of fact. There's something very odd here.

As for the joke/not joke thing, that's even more bizarre. I respect people's right to be open about their political views, but it really doesn't reflect well on the editor whether it's a "joke" or sincere. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Quoted from talk page of P

This is quoted from the talk page of Pedro.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Retirement of someone whose name is the joining of two others' fame

Wanna bet he unretires? Have mörser, will travel (talk) 06:34, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

That outcome would seem almost certain. Pedro :  Chat  09:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It seems you have won your bet. He's already editing outside of his rants and accusations in his own userspace/talkspace, so (predictably) this looks to have been all a load of posturing for the sake of drama. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

And in other news, sun rises ... Pedro :  Chat  14:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Query regarding comments on this RfC

Hi folks. I was wondering what should be done regarding the comments of a couple of users on this RfC.

• User:Manny may, has been blocked as a returning sockpuppet of a blocked user. The user is not banned.
• User:71.246.147.40, a user who has exercised the WP:RTV, but has returned to edit anonymously and has subsequently been blocked.

As neither are banned, I would personally suggest a <small> comment which explains the situations to any editors coming in to the RfC and also whoever close it. I think it would be probably inappropriate for me to do though, since I'm one of the filers of the RfC. Worm · (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding User:Manny may, I made a few enquiries and;

1. The block is an arbcom block.
2. The edits to this RfC/U were made in violation of an earlier block (i.e. block evasion).
3. A number of uninvolved administrators believe that the editor in question is banned rather than just blocked.

Elen is probably in a position to know more of the facts for certain :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Mattisse is banned. Revert her edits. TCO is an idjit, but he's not actually blocked, so I don't think anything should be done with his edits. This note is enough.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Done. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Request for clarfication from Kiefer.Wolfowitz

Kiefer.Wolfowitz, I was wondering if you could clarify

• After Worm's behavior over months, following his gratuitous attack on Malleus during Worm's RfA (where I AGFed despite my conscience), I just told him that he can write whatever he wants (without expecting me to read it)

I'm wondering what gratuitous attack I've made on Malleus, who was not involved in my RfA. In fact, as far as I know, Malleus doesn't even know I exist... I've certainly not interacted with him significantly. Worm · (talk) 15:49, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I apologize. I may have confused you with Tryptofish. I am sorry but I have to go. I hope to correct any error or supply a diff in an hour.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

No worries. I understood where most of your issues with me come from - I disagree with them, obviously, but that one really threw me. To the best of my knowledge I've never made any personal attacks on anyone, let alone gratuitous ones! Worm · (talk) 18:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry again. I should have doubly checked my memory, at any time, but especially now since my heart does not overflow with benevolence for you.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:08, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Rules about editors' views

RFC has specific rules about who gets to edit what. This isn't a regular discussion page or an article. The rule is "Do not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them." If KW wants to endorse my view, he's welcome to do so. But nobody except me gets to change the text of my view—exactly like I'm not changing his view, not even to correct the spelling of the word defuse. ("Diffuse" is what soluble chemicals do in a solvent; defuse is to make an explosive situation unlikely to explode.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

WaId,

I removed your personal attack, per WP:NPA; then David/Worm Elen modified my comment to clarify that I had removed your personal attack, providing a link for anybody curious to see what a user with "an annoyingly high IQ" might have written.

Please leave restoring your personal attack to Elen or David, whose judgment (either one will do) I pledge to accept.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Although I think Elen was the person who added the diff, I'd suggest it stays redacted. It's hardly difficult to ascertain what was said, and since a large part of this RfC is regarding civility (and KW has also had his comments edited in a similar manner during the RfC), I have no issue with the redaction. Remember, he's not changing your view, it's clear that your whole view is not showing. Just my 2p. Worm · (talk) 18:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, as I have noted, Kiefer.Wolfowitz redacting that very mild observation as if it were a personal attack is a demonstration of the problem that has caused this RfC/U. If one cannot say anything even mildly critical without it being regarded as a personal attack, then dispute resolution becomes very difficult. Technically however, Whatamidoing is in the right here. If a view contains a completely egregious personal attack then the victim may request a neutral party to redact the term - but it would need to be at the level of a blockable insult. Other than that, editors must not refactor each other's comments on the RFC/U page. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

You think it is blockable to write "I trust that they are not going through my garbage", which you redacted with a snide comment?

Signs and wonders.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:52, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes actually. Accusing someone on no basis whatsoever of a criminal act, just because you disagree with them in a Misplaced Pages discussion, could very well be a blockable offense. You really need to take the beam out of your own eye you know, before you start criticising others for motes. Some of the things you say are outrageously rude, and you are too intelligent to post a defence that you were not aware of it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

You are aware that the dynamic duo live in England and I in Sweden?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Elen's in England too, I think. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I am indeed. I cannot see that anyone's location is a modifier of "accusing someone on no basis whatsoever of a criminal act..." Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:37, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me spell it out, then. ;p

I trust that none of you limeys will jump out of my Swedish computer and punch me.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess I was just trying to keep the peace. The two comments are very different. Suggesting that Kiefer is lacking an ability (especially that it is a commonly lacked ability) is not a personal attack. It is an interpretation of all the evidence shown on the RfC, and whilst it is criticism, "lacking the skill to defuse drama" is not an attack on character. However, suggesting that someone is likely to "root through garbage", tantamount to stalking or other forms of harrassment - a criminal act - is an attack on character. I think the only reason you weren't blocked for it is because you are in a different country and it was intended to be lighthearted. Worm · (talk) 08:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Your distinction makes sense, despite your lacking in the ability to engage in honest discussion, an ability which our best editors have.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC) (Struck through, as part of my pledge to leave such parodies to those adept at unconscious self-parodies. On second thought, the parody may exhibit an adeptness at unconscious self-parody of myself, which would render me free to parody Worm. Maybe we can have a logician help with an RfC on parodies? 10:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC))

Much better. Worm · (talk) 09:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Kiefer - these aren't parodies. I'm not going to speculate on why you apparently cannot see the difference between the statement "lacking the skill to defuse drama" and your two 'parodies' - "lacking the skills to read and write" and "lacking the ability to engage in honest discussion." Any number of possibilities present themselves. What I will say is that if this is not mere trolling, you need to discipline yourself to stop allowing your wit to override your intellect, because the next time you accuse anyone of lying - which is what "lacking the ability to engage in honest discussion' means in plain English - you will find yourself back at the incident noticeboard. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Another example of honest discussion

I repeat this comment from the previous page:

Fetchcomms proposed an interaction ban months ago. Above, his discussions are misrepresented in an AGF violation and falsification (emboldened):

• "KW attempted to deflect the RfC/U by asking for an interaction ban with both Demiurge1000 and Worm That Turned."
  • "KW implied that the interaction ban was the suggestion of User:fetchcomms - but Fetchcomms had specifically stated he was unaware of the history. He was only explaining how to make an interaction ban request."

This was a misrepresentation. Deal with it, Elen.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:38, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest that since fetchcomms' first comment assumed it was a content dispute - (paraphased) "why don't you all just try to avoid each other" was followed by his second comment "I haven't followed the thread"... it was definitely not a misrepresentation. Worm · (talk) 11:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• note, I have removed the comment on the other page - it was not appropriate where it was, but should be discussed here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  While the sun shine out of your behind, Elen, please remove your personal attack on "TCO".  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  DONE!

  I took care of the removal of a particularly cowardly personal attack on a retired editor, which has stayed while the ArbCom member has been delivering hypocritical lectures about WP:NPA and threatening ANI, despite my having called it to her attention.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  What retired editor? Do you mean an editor who had previously exercised WP:RTV? That's a different thing to retirement, and that page says "Vanishing is a courtesy. Vanished users have no right to return under a new identity or as an IP" (my emphasis). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  Du,

  Cannot you see any problem with your response, at least here? You ask a bunch of rhetorical questions, whose answer you know, raising a cloud of dust through which no illumination may may spread, alas, from even the brightest of bums. This pattern of response is why you should agree to an interaction ban.

  The user has been blocked and an apparent IP has been also blocked, the IP that wrote on this page. Simple charity, and particularly the deepest charity and respect due to an editor who has contributed so much to WP, should have prevented the insult.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  Extending the courtesy of Right to Vanish, on the assumption that the request was being made in good faith and the editor would keep that agreement, was already a charitable act. In this case, it seems the assumption of good faith was incorrect. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:38, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Kiefer.Wolfowitz, please stop refactoring my comments. You seem not to have a clue when something is said in malice or affection, is or isn't a personal attack. I'm beginning to think WP:COMPETENCE applies here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  Your calling the respected now vanished editor an idiot ("idjit") was beneath your person and your office, and would be read as a personal attack by most unfamiliar with your saintly meekness.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:02, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

And I'm not makeless either - my husband of 30+ years is still very much alive thank you. You gave it the modern Swedish meaning. I - a Yorkshirewoman - automatically gave it the Middle English meaning of widowed. Interesting. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:20, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I was thinking of the English translations using "matchless" or peerless, a secondary meaning used in "Pearl" for example.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

No worries. It's an oddity - it must always have been one word with two different meanings. 'Make' is still occasionally used in Yorkshire to mean a spouse or partner, but like makeless in both senses, it's largely obsolete these days. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Moved from talk page

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC) The housekeeping crew seems to have a one-sided concern with removing comments helpful to me. Elen somehow missed this in her last clean up operation.

It's worth mentioning with regards to Kiefer.Wolfowitz's reply to this view (that DGG should review the word "or") is similar to an event at WT:RFA, where Kiefer was criticised in absentia. He ended up focusing on the difference between AND and OR there too... Worm · (talk) 13:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Worm/David, the error with "or"/"and" was made. The article had problems (and the book offered a pseudo-scientific/non-scientific account of schizophrenia). Do you deny this?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Given that we live in the real world and can't use && as a short-circuit operator, I would suggest that your comments there were attempting to wikilawyer your editorial commentary out of the discussion. It was nothing to do with and/or. Worm · (talk) 13:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

David,

You may also have a problem with or.

An example may help. The sentence "David/Worm wastes my time by engaging in AGF violations ("attempting to WikiLawyer") or denying the relevance of a discussion of and/or" does not deny that you waste my time in other ways.

Stating that 3 factors each suffice to cause an editor to fail to fix a problem does not deny other factors (e.g., the editor being tired).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Schopenhauer

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC) Schopenhauer, in a good mood, was quoted on the RfC page. The following may also be considered (from Wikiquote):

• * Hatred is a thing of the heart, contempt a thing of the head. Hatred and contempt are decidedly antagonistic towards one another and mutually exclusive. A great deal of hatred, indeed, has no other source than a compelled respect for the superior qualities of some other person; conversely, if you were to consider hating every miserable wretch you met you would have your work cut out: it is much easier to despise them one and all. True, genuine contempt, which is the obverse of true, genuine pride, stays hidden away in secret and lets no one suspect its existence: for if you let a person you despise notice the fact, you thereby reveal a certain respect for him, inasmuch as you want him to know how low you rate him — which betrays not contempt but hatred, which excludes contempt and only affects it. Genuine contempt, on the other hand, is the unsullied conviction of the worthlessness of another.
  • Vol. 2, Ch. 24, § 324
  • Variant translation: Hatred is an affair of the heart; contempt that of the head.
    • As translated by Eric F. J. Payne

• Childish and altogether ludicrous is what you yourself are ...; and if a grown-up man like me spends fifteen minutes with fools of this kind, it is merely a way of passing the time. I've now got more important things to do. Goodbye!
  • "Thrasymachus", in "On the Indestructibility of our Essential Being by Death, in Essays and Aphorisms (1970) as translated by R. J. Hollingdale, p. 76

from discussion at talk page of L K

Dear Geometry guy, You kindly suggested that I would read and think about LK's comments, which suggests that my previous response may be informative:

BEGIN Quotation

Hi LK!

I appreciate the thought and good will evident in your remarks, especially at the RfC.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear this - I was afraid of giving offense. I think all that is needed is that you be more mindful in your future interactions. IMO, the RfC should be closed if you make such a commitment, and we can move forward. regards --LK (talk) 09:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Lawrence,

You suggested that I should state a commitment to mindfulness in future interactions. Please read Professor Bialy's statement, which I signed.

You seem to take the principal critics to be well intentioned, fair editors.

• Have you looked around at their edits, particularly Du's? Why is this not a joint RfC, suggesting the interaction ban, long ago suggested by me, by Fetchcomms, mentioned by Geometry guy, etc.?
• Have you examined the previous RfC draft by Worm That Turned, or his statements in the earlier ANI/AN or his talk page: This is a fellow that can spend months preparing and RfC, but claims to have trouble finding problems with Du because I have not presented him with diffs!

I distinguish between honest, sincere criticism and dishonest hypocrisy. I gratefully acknowledge and seriously read the former, as a look at my talk page should reveal. I was raised not to enable vice, so I do not reward the latter, even when politically expedient. Even the patience of Kwai Chang Caine had limits ....

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:15, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

END Quotation

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:15, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Nice. I note you didn't quote the rest - which remains available at LK's talkpage. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:56, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Closing this RfC

Attentive editors might notice that I haven't participated in this RfC for a few days. My reasons for such have been largely summarised in Geometry guy's recent comments in his endorsements. RfC is a fundamentally flawed process, stressful for everyone - especially the subject. I did not take the choice to start one lightly, I was not looking to sanction Kiefer.Wolfowitz, nor to drive him off the encyclopedia. I wanted him to take some feedback, which I believed was reasonable, on board. We've gone through a number of types of Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution, and I've seen little or no evidence that he has accepted the feedback.

On the other hand, I've seen little evidence that he hasn't. Besides the hostility towards me and the other main certifiers, he's made a few notes where he appears to have accepted that he's not wholly innocent. Previously, when I raised issues with Kiefer.Wolfowitz, he did make some small changes - for example, he strikes through when editing comments and leaves better edit summaries. I personally hope that he will read over this RfC in the future and come to the conclusion that there are areas that could do with some work. He may even notice that no editors endorsed his behaviour, though almost every editor said they didn't want him to leave over this.

If we take this point of view, it becomes obvious that this RfC remaining open only escalates the situation - a number of recent outside views point this out. Larger issues are ignored while point scoring appears to happen over smaller ones. There is nothing more to be gained by keeping the RfC open, except driving Kiefer.Wolfowitz away or poking him until he does something blockworthy (which, in my opinion, he already has, but is lucky enough to have not been). Neither of those two outcomes are things I want from this RfC, and therefore Irequest that it be closed. I'd like to note, that Kiefer.Wolfowitz should also be in agreement to this closure for it to happen - if he'd like to keep it open regarding concerns in the above section to be discussed, I'm willing to do so.

RfCs can be closed in a number of ways - due to inactivity, due to other dispute resolution, or by agreement. To close an RfC by agreement, it would be helpful if we could create a summary with which we all agree, then place a note at WP:AN requesting closure. I suggest the following. If you agree with closure, but do not like the summary, please suggest an alternative. Worm · (talk) 07:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

(I have not figured out where is the place for comments, so please move this wherever appropriate.) I think the summary should mention two more things: a) indeed, KW is responsible for some of the conflicts, but so are other editors, so remembering that "good people can legitimately disagree" would be beneficial for all the participants in this RfC; b) one of the lessons from this RfC is that it is much better to resolve conflict situations immediately after they arise. Sasha (talk) 15:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Sasha, could you outline how other editors are responsible for "the conflicts"? Do you mean their good faith additions of poorly sourced, or hurriedly written, content to political articles, five years ago? And then their becoming upset when repeatedly and rudely being accused of plagiarism after KW had objections to the political viewpoints expressed in those articles? Or, do you mean editors (three of them) choosing to revert KW because they had a good faith belief that other editors' userpages should not be changed against their will based on KW's interpretation of a WP:ESSAY?

Do you mean Worm and myself, for submitting an RfC/U when it was quite clear after multiple appearances at WP:WQA, and at WP:ANI, and at WP:AN, and other places, that things were getting worse rather than better? (RfC/U is far from perfect, but it's less of a drama-fest than ANI; and few things are as regularly ineffective as WQA.) Do you mean me, because I made a simple true statement and now am a little perplexed to be called a "sociopath", a "contemptible shit", and a "jerk" who should be "removed" (that last one was repeated twice, for what it's worth) as a result of that one simple statement? Or do you mean something else? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Demiurge,

to emphasise that I do not make any personal statement about you or Worm, I switch to first person singular. When I am involved in a conflict that I do not manage to resolve without arbitration, I consider it a sign I have to improve my conflict resolution skills. The same applies to my adversary of course (perhaps I can say that it applies more to the adversary, since obviously the conflict was more of his fault :)

The involved parties got more than enough (contradictory) advise on how to resolve their conflicts during this RfC, so I will not add another one. I do think that the summary is a good place to remind everyone involved that no-one should be proud of having to request arbitration. This applies especially to the involved admins, since the standards for them are higher for obvious reasons.

Sasha (talk) 18:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

For the most part, I've deferred to Worm in addressing the issues here, both before and during this RfC/U; he has a longstanding and demonstrable record in dealing with editors who have problems, with considerable success. He has gone out of his way to comply with every request, requirement and expectation that KW has had, even when some of them have gone far beyond what is reasonable, and he did everything possible to try to find a way to avoid this RfC/U being necessary at all.

Worm has, in my view and that of numerous other editors commenting on this RfC/U, behaved in an exemplary manner as regards tact, fairness, understanding and open-mindedness. In return, KW has questioned Worm's competence, his level of experience as an administrator, the "worth" of his contributions to the encyclopedia, his impartiality, integrity and character, and a selection of other things. KW doesn't stop there, though. Anyone who has concerns about his behaviour is suspect; he's most recently proceeded to call for Elen's resignation from arbcom. Perhaps we all have serious deficiencies in our conflict resolution skills?

Worm and I have had concerns throughout, shared by some other editors, that the processes for dealing with user conduct issues may not be as effective - or as constructive - as we might wish. That doesn't change the fact that the problems do need addressing. It's difficult to see where and how your suggestion could be incorporated into a closing statement; I think referring to possible arbitration at this point would tend to make any closing statement appear threatening rather than helpful. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:05, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Closing summary suggested by Worm That Turned

Kiefer.Wolfowitz is an excellent editor of articles about mathematics and statistics, and has also made valuable contributions in other areas.of mathematics articles and has done some great work on BLPs The editors who have participated in this RfC acknowledge this fact and do not want this to change. His interactions with other editors, however, are not always as exemplary and so it is suggested that Kiefer.Wolfowitz should remember that "good people can legitimately disagree". It is also suggested that Kiefer.Wolfowitz should not regard critism with hostility and should consider ways to address the concerns of his critics.take feedback at face value, not regarding it with hostility. It is recommended that Kiefer.Wolfowitz discusses future issues with a neutral third party he trusts before they escalate, especially in areas he holds strong opinions. All editors should also try to follow these reasonable suggestions.

Comment

This is not bad, and I appreciate the effort and apparent good will, but it is not yet in shape to be voted on. Please consider the following criticisms, which I hope will be according some merit, even by my critics.

The following phrases are objectionable as vague or trivial; they should be rephrased carefully worded, substantive phrases:

1. "It is suggested that ..."

   Why not honestly write, "The undersigned suggest"?

2. "should remember that 'good people can legitimately disagree'

   When have I denied this? (A look at my editing shows my understanding that good editors not only "can" but do disagree with me; the relevant issue is to resolve disagreement by writing truthful articles based on reliable sources, which is the practice of good article writers.) On an encyclopedia, cannot we avoid such clichés?

3. "take feedback at face value, not regarding it with hostility"

   This appears disingenuous. "Feedback" is neutral. Are you saying that I have a trouble accepting praise? The record here and elsewhere shows that I have acknowledged thoughtful criticism. (Also "face value" is another cliché.) .

   I do not appreciate the personal attacks, particularly by people who have not written worthy articles. This is an inappropriate closing to an RfC/U where Demiurge1000 and Elen of the Roads have each suggested Lihaas was a national socialist (Nazi), unless it be another unconscious self-parody.

4. "particularly in areas where he has strong opinions"

   I have strong belief, indeed knowledge, in many areas, not just mathematics. Why not avoid my intention and instead discuss behavior, as usually recommended on WP, by writing "when he considers strongly criticizing sources or edits"?

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with KW that Worm's opening sentence here is not an appropriate start to the closure. (KW struck part of Worm's proposed opening sentence). In particular, saying that KW "has done some great work on BLPs" is problematic. The point is, I have always considered the most serious problem here to be a BLP problem. That's not to suggest that there aren't other serious problems with KW's behaviour. But dragging a living person's name through the mud, deliberately and provocatively, after repeated requests to desist, and even after acknowledging the possible damage to their real world reputation and even livelihood, is not something we can ever permit on Misplaced Pages. The WP:BLP policy applies to all edits made to Misplaced Pages, not just the article space.

However, I do not question Kiefer's undoubted positive contributions - he's already brought one mathematics article to Good Article status, and will most likely soon manage the same with a politics article. I suggest as a compromise; "Kiefer.Wolfowitz is an excellent editor of mathematics articles, and has also made valuable contributions in other areas." --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Demiurge1000,

The restriction to mathematics articles is bad, because statistics is not part of mathematics, and because my articles in politics and history have received praise. I believe that all my articles have the highest quality most reliable sources, and most are very well referenced; certainly anything controversial is well referenced (typically, the last year, with in-line page references).

Regarding your recently emphasized WP:BLP concerns:

1. There has been very little discussion of my flagging concerns about a possible copyright violation for the Socialist Party of America and listing the close paraphrasing of paragraphs from the "history" published by the Socialist Party USA:

and so I suspect that this is an inappropriate topic for a closing statement. I also raise the procedural objection that

2. you have added the WP:BLP concern not at the beginning (10 October), but rather only at the end of this RfC (21 October), well after most of the "outside reviews" were written, so that this should not be in this RfC's closing statement. (Given the discussion of this topic at AN/ANI, and the lack of interest by others here, and given my attempts to write the nicest possible statements on his talk page and the article talk page, please drop this issue.)

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Happy to revise my suggested alteration to "Kiefer.Wolfowitz is an excellent editor of articles about mathematics and statistics, and has also made valuable contributions in other areas." --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Demiurge1000,

Please read my proposal before, which does try to deal with the substantive issues alluded to by Worm. Please reflect on my word choice. In particular, I am not an "editor" (or a "Misplaced Pages user"); rather I am a writer.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Demiurge, I do not think your change is unreasonable - I've done it. Worm · (talk) 20:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

KW, I had a look at your suggestions. "We the undersigned" is not appropriate, as there needs to be agreement on the summary of the RfC - ie the summary should not be contentious to any party. I take your point with the neutrality of the word feedback, we are talking about criticism, and I've adjusted appropriately. Regarding the 'good people can disagree', I've not suggested that you denied this, indeed you agreed with it on the RfC - I was hoping to bring in what I thought was a salient quote which all of us could learn from. Regarding your "opinions", I feel that it is appropriate, because it is based on your opinions that your editing flares up - be it political opinion, opinions regarding minors or other opinions. If you spot a discussion starting to flare up (and I'm sure you can), and it is a topic you feel passionate about, why not get a third opinion? I do and have done many times in the past, it's good advice.

Regarding the personal attacks, I am afraid I still see none. I'm sorry, but I do not see a single attack on you personally. I know you feel aggrieved by the criticism here, but you are the only editor who has suggested personal attacks on you. However, I disagree with the concept of "worthy" articles and "unworthy" articles - remember this is an encyclopedia, not an academic journal. It is written for everybody - and therefore every article written to a high standard should be treated with the same level of "worth", just my opinion. In fact, there's an argument to say that more viewed articles of the same quality are more worthy... but lets not go there. Worm · (talk) 20:02, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

NB, due to an edit conflict, I lost the changes to my statement, which I've put in now. I've changed it a little further, to point out that all editors should follow these reasonable suggestions - there's nothing out of the ordinary. Worm · (talk) 13:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Alternative

Worm/David,

Please look at what I wrote and see whether any of my changes can be accepted.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz is an excellent editor. The editors who have participated in this RfC acknowledge this fact and do not want this to change. His interactions with some other editors, however, are not always as exemplary, and so Kiefer.Wolfowitz should remember the spirit of the saying, "good people can legitimately disagree". Kiefer.Wolfowitz should continue to acknowledge feedback and consider ways to address the concerns of his critics. Before he strongly criticizes sources or edits, Kiefer.Wolfowitz should reflect on past experiences and consider discussing such criticism with any competent third-party.

For example, the statement that "KW should remember that others can disagree legitimately" is painful for me to read, but I can accept the spirit of the sentence.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Imprimatur

The suggestion that I should consult with somebody before writing on anything strongly believed is utterly unacceptable. Should I ask for permission before farting?

1. "I fear their next design will be to get into their custody the licensing of that which they say Claudius intended, but went not through with."
2. Milton annotated his margin with "Quo veniam daret statum crepitumque ventris in convivio emittendi. Sueton. in Claudio." "In English (from the Loeb translation of J.C. Rolfe 1914): " allowing the privilege of breaking wind quietly or noisily at table

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:52, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Question and answer

Question (formatting by KW)

KW, have you demonstrated your ability to work well with other editors, on political topics where you disagree with them? Or has it caused problems?

Answer

Hi Demiurge1000,

User Carrite habitually (but affectionately) and understandably (mis)characterizes me as a right-wing social democrat, and calls himself something else. You should see his very negative reaction to my initial edits on Social Democrats, USA. (I have in fact identified myself as having attended Michael Harrington's funeral, so a knowledgeable person would suspect that I might be hostile to SDUSA, in fact.) Carrite suggested I use the New York Times article to describe the change of SPA to SDUSA, and has largely approved of the results.

You can ask RJensen for his opinion. He is a respected historian, who has worked on a few articles with me. There has been no edit waring.

I acknowledge having difficulty working with persons using sources that not just a few times, but over and over make gross errors, particularly partisan errors, on political articles.

This is a good question. It is a pity that RfC/Us no longer have a question section. I think that I addressed this question in earlier discussions.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Users who agree with closing and endorse the summary

• Worm · (talk) 07:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
• As proposed by Worm, with my suggested amendment to the first sentence. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
• Endorse with Demiurge1000's amendment. At the risk of being annoying Ive a comment to make. On Friday I didnt read the whole RFC and just endorsed the two relatively anti RFC views as I have great admiration for Keifer and his work here and thought some of the statements against him were one sided. On the other hand there has been uncollegial editing. I at least partly agree with all the other views, especially what DGG said. So I fully commend editors like Worm, Ellen etc who are good enough to take the time to address overly aggressive conduct. FeydHuxtable (talk) 08:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Users who disagree with closing or do not endorse the summary

•  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC).

Closing summary

Criticism/Alternative

Alternative: Long form

Kiefer.Wolfowitz (KW) has been a very active writer and editor. He has written primarily in statistical science and other mathematical sciences (principally statistics, but also optimization/operations research, mathematical economics, and computer science); he has also written biographies in these areas. His first work, revising optimal design inspired his name, honoring Jack C. Kiefer and Jacob Wolfowitz. In these areas, his editing has received very high praise: in this RfC, leaders of the WP:WikiProject Mathematics and WP:WikiProject Mathematics commended his editing and raised the concern that KW's total contributions to Misplaced Pages be considered, particularly the articles in their expertise, which they commended.

In the last 6 months, KW has written more about recent American political history, particularly about controversial articles that have long been featured in Misplaced Pages:Noticeboards and at least one Arbitration Committee case: History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_States, American left, Socialist Party of America (SPA), Social Democrats, USA, Socialist Party USA, Michael Harrington/Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee/Democratic Socialists of America, neoconservatism, Freedom in the World, and more than a dozen articles based on material imported from on-line websites.

• In all cases, KW boldly edited the articles; in many cases, his early edits were criticized as POV-pushing: However, in all cases, his edits have stood the test of time (although their referencing has been improved), and one of his early critics User:Carrite stated that he was "astonished" to be cited in criticism of KW, stating "on the contrary, I think he is a terrific editor". None of his material has any tags, and certainly none for RS, NPOV, etc.
• At the same time, these political articles have been the sites of greatest conflict. In these conflicts, content/political questions overlapped questions about sources (complying with WP:Reliable sources and WP:NPOV). KW's editing and his referencing has been praised in the current good-article review of Tom Kahn (and American social democrat) and called "meticulous" in the recent featured-article of Shapley–Folkman lemma (a topic in convex geometry and mathematical economics). While improving articles, KW has bluntly condemned some sources as "crap" and sometimes as politically biased fantasies, while also criticizing the edits that introduced that material; some of these criticisms have been made while also raising concerns, infrequently by using tags, about compliance with WP policies on avoiding close paraphrasing/plagiarism and respecting copyright. In all cases, the tagged material has been rewritten, to comply with WP policy; in the case of Freedom in the World WP copyright expert User:Moonriddengirl stated that the infraction was probably not a serious but nonetheless rewote the section. It is this cluster of issues have raised the greatest concern among critics of KW. KW has acknowledged that calling sources "crap" and raising concerns about close paraphrasing/plagiarism/copyright-violation/POV-pushing/fringe upsets the editors introducing the questioned material.

In the last year, Kiefer.Wolfowitz has participated in discussions for Requests for Administrator. In these discussions, KW has consistently opposed minors becoming administrators, because of his ethical and legal concerns; while sanctioned by WP policy, his and others' stated opposition to minors has been criticized. He has been criticized as being paternalistic and rigid about removing personal information, such as disabilities, from minors' user pages; all the minors involved have thanked KW for concern, while choosing to continue to display the information. KW has acknowledged that WP:Oversight may be contacted in future cases.

There has been forthright, sometimes heated, but rarely illuminating discussions about the wisdom of this RfC, about the history leading to this RfC, and about the conduct of the parties. By its nature, an RfC/U focuses on the conduct of the targeted user, unlike a request for mediation, which may suggest voluntary interaction bans, etc. KW has long sought a voluntary interaction ban with User:Worm That Turned and User:Demiurge1000; KW, User:Geometry guy, and others have suggested that this RfC failed to address the problem of interaction, and in particular did not address Demiurge1000's behavior.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• Wholly inappropriate for a summary - but would have made a great response if you'd said that in the first place. I think it misses the point we were trying to make in many places, whilst being spot on in others. Worm · (talk) 20:10, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  I do not retract truth claims that I think are true. However, I have tried to address legitimate concerns for a long time, for example when Ryan Vesey leaped to my defense, before, and I suggested that he consider the other fellow's statement. It is unfortunate that there were no examples given of my being nice to young people or people who identified themselves as having problems; I should like to think that those examples far outnumber the rough examples discussed here (and I'm not claiming that 90 good deeds excuse 10 bad deeds for any editor).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Alternative close proposal

Kiefer.Wolfowitz is plainly out to lunch at this point (a phrase I'm sure he will make 10k of comments with sources about shortly). Let's lock this up and move away. If he turns up back in polite society still causing the same problems, this RfC/U will provide evidence for some administrative or community action - whatever seems appropriate at the time. On the other hand (which I'm still kind of hoping for) if he finishes working through this and starts editing articles again - without the need to keep up a running commentary on how everyone is against him, inferior to him &etc - then it can gracefully sink into the archives.

I have asked at WP:AN for an uninvolved editor to close this. I think that would be for the best. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:01, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Support

1. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
2. moving on is the important thing here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

#  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments # It is very clear that the distribution of comments is split between two clusters, which I shall roughly label as

1. • article writers, who have raised concerns about personal attacks and have made supportive statements (and some thoughtful criticism), and
   • other.

   Of course I choose the "polite wisdom and letters" of the writers, rather the "barbaric pride of a Hunnish and Norwegian stateliness" of an ArbComm member abusing her power and disgracing her office.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

2. "Polite society" reminded me of Areopagitica.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
3. I would consider an AN close inappropriate, as isn't part of the proper procedure. However, as Demiurge says, moving on is the proper thing, and ... well... there are no procedures. Worm · (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
4. I don't think that a close without discussion is useful at this point, so I would ask any newcomer from WP:AN to treat this with extreme caution. We may be "back here" in a month or two, which would be sad - we certainly don't want to be back here in a week or two. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:36, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Better to agree and to move on

Old business

Rather than argue endlessly and unproductively over minutiae, let's instead look at the things on which we all are agreed. Put enough of those agreements together, and, magically, the need for the RfC/U falls apart, and we can all move on.

In this edit, KW agreed with Moonriddengirl's stagement that "people on both sides of the copyright question should be treated courteously".

I think any reasonable person would agree that KW treated some people on one side (by his view) of "the copyright question" discourteously. Everyone here agrees with that. If there is a person who believes that KW's behaviour toward Peter was courteous, then we need to hear from you right now.

In reality, there were problems. These problems must not be allowed to recur. WP:BLP must be followed regarding people who contribute to obscure material about obscure political parties in the USA. Equally, it must be followed about obscure political parties anywhere!

Let's get an assurance that KW will not behave like this again - even if he feels very strongly! - then let's dismiss this whole thing and move on.

There's nothing complicated in this. --Demiurge1000 (talk)

I've been following the above and agree with the general principle that it is more important to close this RfC and move on than to agree about every issue that has arisen here or pretend that any closing summary will make everyone happy. Geometry guy 21:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The clouds part and angels sing

All right, please critique my summary. Let's not get precious about who says what or who is on what side, this is an attempt to just close this nonsense.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz made some mistakes when dealing with certain political articles; he has agreed to be more careful when raising such concerns in future, and the people involved agree that there is no need to take further action. Kiefer.Wolfowitz has agreed to contact oversight, in future, if he thinks that information about younger editors should be removed.

Kiefer.Wolfowitz agrees to limit himself to a simple statement about his views, rather than engaging in an prolonged argument, when someone under the age of minority applies to be a Misplaced Pages administrator.

There's not much more? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Demiurge1000!

I recognize that using some academic "fighting words" (wink, to release tensions) has little support, even when I think that I am correcting a great wrong, when dealing with productive editors. To establish peace and to make amends (insofar as possible, given the past) with an otherwise productive editor, I did write the nicest possible statements on the article and user talk-pages, without stating anything that I believe to be false or cowardly.

I would remind you and the others of Moonriddengirl's statement to you, when you had questioned my motives for asking for assistance from the copyright violation department: Most users discover copyright problems because they are concerned about content questions. Again, I remind you that I helped to clean up 10-20 articles in one day, after I discovered the importing of articles from a partisan website; in every case, rewriting was done, whether by me or others. In every case!

I have resented your questioning my motives for asking for copyright-violation experts to look at the pages, and really for not acknowledging that I cleaned up a lot of articles of no interest to me, because I take BLP seriously. If I had not taken action, those problems would still exist.

You overstate some acknowledgments that you attributed to me:

• I have not acknowledged intellectual or academic mistakes, but I have acknowledged imprudently writing statements that caused unnecessary conflict, usually in the Spring or Summer when I started editing politics.
• Regarding RFAs:

• I wrote more at the first RfAs, because of curiosity and a genuine concern, and in one case because I thought that people were wrongly dismissing MF, without being able to state his views.
• Like other writers, I shall continue to raise concerns when we see candidates who are minors or persons with poor scholarship or limited writing. In some cases, this requires documentation, and my contributions have been acknowledged by great writers like TCO and SandyGeorgia. They deserve some respect from you and WTT/Dave, too. As leaders of RfA reform, you have an obligation to be concerned with poor scholarship among RfA candidates, if only to ensure that your RfA reform is not dismissed as an childish administrative clique with poor understanding of writers.
• I am concerned about the development of a network focused on RfAs, which is not only beginning to dominate RfAs, but also is becoming increasingly intolerant towards eccentricities. I expect that leaders of the RfA reform shall pay more attention to preventing group-think and scapegoating, which has already appeared.

I have not agreed to contact Oversight. I have acknowledged that in all cases so far, the minors have continued to display sensitive information, and agreed to always consider contacting Oversight first and leaving the decision to them---presumably, they can act within 15 minutes or so.

Now, do you agree to the mutual interaction ban?

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• Talk of an interaction ban is pointless at this point. The RfC/U has fairly comprehensively established that the problem isn't with Demiurge. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  How can a process "comprehensively establish" an issue that it didn't and never intended to address? Geometry guy 22:59, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  Ditto. Also, Demiurge1000 and I are now discussing issues without knives or elbows being thrown, and let's let him respond. He has already acknowledged reducing his contacts after I made this request before, which makes me think he would consider at least a trial extension of this practice.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:03, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  Excellent. Do you agree that your behaviour with regard to Peter, was inappropriate? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  Demiurge1000, I have said what I could say. Please understand that you are pushing me against my conscience, and I believe that your fixation on this is not helping anybody. Please just accept that I have an extremely strong reaction against good persons being called Leninists, fascists, komisarsteins, "courting the Misplaced Pages fraternity", etc., and that I believe that such WP:NPA insults must be dealt with firmly. I recognize that others and the majority disagree.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  I have stated that my approach caused conflict, and I now clarify that no benefit was apparent from using zealous indignation. The main benefit that can be expected from such a reproach is an admission of error and resolution to avoid similar errors, when possible. I have tried to show in a small way, by my acknowledgements of past errors, that we should all admit errors and try to do better.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  That's absolutely fine. Those of us who are Leninists, fascists, komisarsteins, or whatever else you may call us, don't actually really care very much, or even recognise what the insults are about. Seriously, I am struggling to know what that is all about. Sorry. Let's move on... please. Peter edited Misplaced Pages with good faith; he was never part of any "cabal" or any extremist group, just like Rd232 was never part of any similar cabal. Will you accept this? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

  Peter seems like a nice guy. I think I wrote repeatedly that I have seen no evidence of any similar issues, and I tried to make peace. I also wrote a defense of him, when I asked Ryan not to get involved.

  I was disappointed that highly sophisticated (in politics and WP) SPUSA editors had not seen the borrowing from their "history". I raised a concern that these articles promoted SPUSA above the other post SPA organizations, even though it is very small, and apparently no longer wins the city-council races in Iowa City; where the others's members are very well known. At worst, I suspected that a handful of editors have consciously been promoting the SPUSA on WP, as a cabal or (more likely) because of a belief in the virtue of both SPUSA/WP (c.f. Euston Manifesto).

  I take it that we are done. I have concerns about the language of WTT's draft, particularly of his "gag order", which I trust he or you can accomodate.

  Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:47, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

"Gag order"?

• I can't find anything about a "gag order" on this page, so please be a little clearer. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

  Here is the overly broad and overly strong requirement:  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 06:18, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• DRAFT: "It is recommended that Kiefer.Wolfowitz discusses future issues with a neutral third party he trusts before they escalate, especially in areas he holds strong opinions."

  Thank you for the clarification. Under the circumstances, that seems rather weak to me... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• I feel strongly that 1+1=2, but I shall not consult with anybody. Also the sentence's syntax is convoluted, I'm sorry to say, and "neutral" is redundant. I suggested the following  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 06:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

  Before he strongly criticizes sources or edits, Kiefer.Wolfowitz should reflect on past experiences and consider discussing such criticism with any competent third-party.

• KW, there's a large difference between feeling strongly that 1+1=2 - which is a fact (for the majority of situations, I'm sure we can come up with a few where it isn't) - and you feeling strongly that say, that minors shouldn't be admins. All the above is recommending (and you don't have to follow the recommendation, but it is good practice), is you keep an eye on a situation and discuss it with someone you trust before letting things get too far. I'd not be happy with comments like "competent third party", as it is hard to quantify... I know there are people you'd regard as incompetent who I wouldn't. Also it's not just criticizing sources or edits, it's also commenting on editors. Worm · (talk) 13:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

  WTT/David,

  I am glad that you accepted some suggestions. I suggested a longer close, which you rejected. I have explained why your sentence is too broad in scope, so that it must be changed. Find a better wording or delete it.

  The general rule is to avoid commenting on editors, and to focus on edits and sources, I repeat.

  If you want to ban comments about minors, change WP policy, which explicitly states that editors are free to oppose granting administrative powers to minors. Your example clarifies why this ban is unacceptable.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

  I don't want to ban comments about minors. I have never supported a minor to be an admin and it would have to be an exceptional candidate to change that. Demiurge, to the best of my knowledge has never voted for a minor to be an admin. He certainly didn't on any of the ones I've looked at recently. I don't want you to stop airing that opinion, it is right that it should be put forward on the encyclopedia - however, I do want you to pause before you get into a situation like Dylan's RfA, where you made twice as many posts as the candidate and asked wholly inappropriate questions. Worm · (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)