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Revision as of 17:44, 9 December 2011 editStephfo (talk | contribs)1,113 edits typo← Previous edit Revision as of 17:51, 9 December 2011 edit undoMann jess (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers14,672 edits →encounter with Jess: Stop. This is over. Move on.Next edit →
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::: No incivility on the part of Jess that I can see. However the amount of conflict that Stephfo finds seems to warrant some oversight from a patient editor and potentially some warnings if Stephfo doesn't start behaving better. --] (]) 15:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC) ::: No incivility on the part of Jess that I can see. However the amount of conflict that Stephfo finds seems to warrant some oversight from a patient editor and potentially some warnings if Stephfo doesn't start behaving better. --] (]) 15:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
::::He's been warned many times, blocked several times and recently topic banned. He has a mentor, but does not seem to consult him when he has a problem like this before acting rashly. The main problem is that Stephfo still isn't clear on what WP is and on how he should behave here because he has never read the pertinent policies. I just gave him yet another reminder, but there are major competence and temperament issues here. He's highly defensive and takes any criticism or disagreement as an attack against him, and responds "in kind", so to speak. ] (]) 15:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC) ::::He's been warned many times, blocked several times and recently topic banned. He has a mentor, but does not seem to consult him when he has a problem like this before acting rashly. The main problem is that Stephfo still isn't clear on what WP is and on how he should behave here because he has never read the pertinent policies. I just gave him yet another reminder, but there are major competence and temperament issues here. He's highly defensive and takes any criticism or disagreement as an attack against him, and responds "in kind", so to speak. ] (]) 15:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

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I've found it strange that the case is closed before I even got chance to react on arguments presented. I did not suggest that Jess have done anything especially wrong but I reserve the right to claim that they are not fair in his/her judgements towards me what is causing lots of tensions and I perceive for the best solution the one proposed as "From their last edit, it appears Jess would be willing to leave you alone". I posted here only to try to do my best to calm down the situation. I appreciate their effort for mentoring me but for me it would be perhaps better if I could use for that purpose someone else w/o the record we have in our mutual relations with Jess. For example, if someone declares something like this: ''"I most strongly disagree with this proposal. It would essentially enable enforcing administrators to decide content disputes, because they would have to determine which of several contested versions of an article is of higher quality. This necessarily requires a judgement about the merits of the contested content. Consequently, this proposal runs counter to what is practically a constitutional principle of Misplaced Pages, i.e., that administrators do not adjudicate content disagreements. Apart from that, of course, this sort of catch-all exception could be used to contest almost all applications of 3RR, and would therefore enable many more edit wars and substantially weaken what may be our most important safeguard against disagreements getting out of hand"'' such person seems to me to have qualities of mentoring that I would find worth of following. I also feel sorry that Jess regard the time they spent with me for waste of time, but also do dare suggest that to prevent such disappointment in the future, the best for them would be to find someone else to spend time on, and I will try to keep with those advisers that I feel more compatible with when it comes to fair unbiased assessments of acts. I hope my effort to calm things down and looking for solutions consisting in involvement of 3rd party would not be perceived negatively. Thanks for your help and understanding. --] (]) 17:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC) I've found it strange that the case is closed before I even got chance to react on arguments presented. I did not suggest that Jess have done anything especially wrong but I reserve the right to claim that they are not fair in his/her judgements towards me what is causing lots of tensions and I perceive for the best solution the one proposed as "From their last edit, it appears Jess would be willing to leave you alone". I posted here only to try to do my best to calm down the situation. I appreciate their effort for mentoring me but for me it would be perhaps better if I could use for that purpose someone else w/o the record we have in our mutual relations with Jess. For example, if someone declares something like this: ''"I most strongly disagree with this proposal. It would essentially enable enforcing administrators to decide content disputes, because they would have to determine which of several contested versions of an article is of higher quality. This necessarily requires a judgement about the merits of the contested content. Consequently, this proposal runs counter to what is practically a constitutional principle of Misplaced Pages, i.e., that administrators do not adjudicate content disagreements. Apart from that, of course, this sort of catch-all exception could be used to contest almost all applications of 3RR, and would therefore enable many more edit wars and substantially weaken what may be our most important safeguard against disagreements getting out of hand"'' such person seems to me to have qualities of mentoring that I would find worth of following. I also feel sorry that Jess regard the time they spent with me for waste of time, but also do dare suggest that to prevent such disappointment in the future, the best for them would be to find someone else to spend time on, and I will try to keep with those advisers that I feel more compatible with when it comes to fair unbiased assessments of acts. I hope my effort to calm things down and looking for solutions consisting in involvement of 3rd party would not be perceived negatively. Thanks for your help and understanding. --] (]) 17:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

:Stop. This is over. I spent considerable time helping you, and you've consistently thrown that in my face with accusations. I'm done. I've now repeatedly told you that, as have Gerard and others. I don't know what continuing to harp on this is intended to accomplish. I don't know if you're trolling, or if for some reason you have an inability to let things go, but either way, the section is archived. It's time to move on. &nbsp; &mdash; ]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">&middot; ]]</span> 17:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

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    Welcome to wikiquette assistance
    Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks.
    • Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s).
    • No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead.
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    Active discussions

    Talk Page Sections Retitled as Personal Attacks

    I and another editor have expressed concerns to User:Goodwinsands about his editing history and possible multiple accounts since he started editing in January 2011. He now has renamed all those sections of his talk page to mock our concerns. He collapsed the entries under one title: Under the green bars: documentation of a tag-team harassment campaign. He renamed our section titles, per below. I think someone needs to explain Misplaced Pages policy on personal attacks and misuse of talk pages to Goodwinsand and encourage him to either revert to original comments or archive the whole mess.

    • POV Warrior #1 tries: false accusation of sock puppetry (Was at this diff “Your editing history?”) Details of why I was suspicious are in a later WP:SPI link below.
    • POV Warrior #2 tries: don't call a Holocaust denier a Holocaust denier (Was at this diff “BLPN Israel Shamir”) Regarding Goodwinsands adding a category to an article when that subject was currently under discussion at BLPN.
    • POV Warrior #1 tries again: bogus redefinition of 'revert' in attempt to pin a false 1RR. (Was at this diff "Gilad Atzmon: Edit warring notice".) Per this discussion (at this diff) Goodwinsands inaccurately stated and perhaps still holds that "No, a revert means undoing the actions of another editor within the last 24 hours."
    • POV Warrior #2 tries again: false allegations of sock puppetry (Was at this diff "Multiple accounts.") User:Off2riorob asked him about the possibility of multiple accounts.
    • POV warriors #1 and #2 tag team in false accusation of sock puppetry, no not sock puppetry, erm, er, er, give us a sec and we'll come up with it... (Evidently Goodwinsands split up the "Multiple accounts" section.) Seeing I was not the only with suspicions, I decided to investigate further and at this diff discussed which editors on one sock puppet plagued article Goodwinsands possibly might be a sock or multiple account of. I was told by an administrator at this diff that if I had suspicions I should take it to Sockpuppet Investigation.
    • POV Warrior #1 tries: another false accusation of sock puppetry Per administrator's comment I did so, whole discussion here. I guess it didn't present enough details and an admin closed it calling it a "fishing expedition."

    Needlesstosay, this kind of mocking behavior discourages people from trying to deal with real concerns. Anyway, since he has barred me from his talk page I can't announce this notice. Thanks for any help. CarolMooreDC 05:06, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

    There's a very easy solution to this problem, though I strongly suspect you will not want to go along: Stop bothering him on his talk page. Make whatever comments you want about him on other talk pages (like this) where he can't change the section header. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:23, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    WP:Civility says "It applies to all interaction on Misplaced Pages, including on user and article talk pages..." This is the civility noticeboard. I'm just asking for someone to clue him in so the next person who has a legitimate concern isn't driven away by the mass attacks on those who have had past concerns. CarolMooreDC 05:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    If you're worried about the next person, perhaps you should just wait for the next person to have the same problem.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:41, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

    So, just to be clear here, because I have kept the evidence of your campaign of harassment against me on my talk page, and because I have labeled it for what it is, you continue your campaign of harassment here by complaining that I have dared to complain about your campaign of harassment?

    One more for the list, then, isn't it. Goodwinsands (talk) 06:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

    Please ignore Brewcrewer as his advice is neither helpful nor appropriate. One does not tolerate uncivil behaviour until it bites another user. We talk to the editor and inform them of their behaviour in order to avoid future confrontations. Brewcrewer also appears to be involved with the accused having left a welcome message on the user's talk page. Not sure what the association is.
    With that said, have you notified Goodwinsands of this discussion? The behaviour described, and some other behaviour not mentioned, is not at all civil, but I would like to hear the editor's side of the story. I went to the talk page and did not see a notice there.
    Also, the behaviour of the other two editors is not civil. One does not allude to or hint that another editor is a sockpuppet. With that said, incivility does not call for further incivility.
    As a result of the edit conflict, I see that Goodwinsands knows what is happening here and continues to attack rather than comment on his own behaviour. This is for discussion not attacks. There was no campaign of harassment so there's nothing to complain about to. They were trying to engage you in conversation, which you don't seem to like to do. Perhaps a cool-off period would be a good first step--walk away from the article you're having contention over and come back in a week or two. If you're still planning on editing the same articles, discussion would be a good second step. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    Walter Görlitz is correct. I looked at this report earlier but decided not to post because the refactored headings at User talk:Goodwinsands were not knock-out examples of incivility, and I thought my comments would be misinterpreted. However, the "One more for the list, then, isn't it" comment above shows that involvement is required. A good way to understand why Misplaced Pages's procedures is as they are is to contemplate what the inevitable outcome of not having those procedures would be. For example, if a civil and relevant comment at a noticeboard can be dismissed as "one more for the list", what is to stop those on the other side from responding in kind, with a downward spiral into what is seen at all unmoderated Internet forums. Please just stick to discussing issues related to improvement of article content. If unwelcome comments appear on a user's talk page, that user is entitled to simply revert them (and if wanted, a pointy but polite edit summary such as "misguided" can be used for the revert). But it is not helpful for community collaboration for editors to refactor the headings of posted comments and to add commentary about those who posted them. Johnuniq (talk) 09:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    The talk page headings are personal attacks and it would be best if Goodwinsands changes them. 11:04, 2 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerardw (talk • contribs)
    Just to clarify, as I wrote above: Anyway, since he has barred me from his talk page I can't announce this notice." I should have asked someone else to. But frankly he monitors all my edits so I knew he'd find out. CarolMooreDC 16:04, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    No editor can bar anyone else from commenting on that editor's talk page. Only an admin can lock a talk page and they have to have very serious reasons from doing so. The "barring" in an of itself is not civil. The best one can do is request that an editor not hound you on your talk page and open a case for hounding. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    As Goodwinsands' reply here indicates they are aware of the discussion, it's a moot point. I concur with both the interpretation that a "ban" is not supported by policy and the wisdom of respecting a request not to post a notice. I periodically post the WQA-notice myself if a poster has missed the instruction to, or, as in this case, made a conscious decision to avoid escalating the conflict. Gerardw (talk) 18:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
    Thanks for the note on no provision for "banning." I certainly comply when it's a matter of just discussing things on their talk page. But when it is a matter of alerts that need to be made, I'm glad to see we still have that right. (I also just remembered that "Retired" User:Spaceclerk also banned the same two editors as Goodwinsands because of our suspicions and an SPI. Will have to write that factoid down somewhere.) CarolMooreDC 21:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

    Comment As the issue of a user "banning" another user from their talk page seems to be a perennial issue, I've created WP:NOBAN to link the existing policy statement. (It's easy to miss as it's on WP:User pages instead of WP:TPG. Gerardw (talk) 11:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

    Thanks. I'll refer to it should the need for some official notice to User:Goodwinsands arise again. CarolMooreDC 14:52, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

    Editor becoming increasingly uncivil

    Editor has become increasingly hostile and uncivil during Talk Page discussions and in edit summaries, resulting in unwarranted personal attacks against me. Diff links:

    This seems to have started when I spoke out against the editor's use of forum shopping and Wiki-lawyering when not getting the answers he was looking for at two forums. On his talk page, I asked him to step back for a bit and allow things to progress naturally at the noticeboard RfC's he's filed today rather than trying to force them to progress. His responses are in the diff links above. The latest personal attack from him that was the last straw for me: "I don't think I want to be a bullying editor who assumes bad faith like you are and reverts as a way of life."

    The incivility from this editor has gone beyond anything appropriate and/or necessary, in my opinion. In the future, I want to be able to edit cooperatively and collegially with this editor, but the hard feelings and atmosphere he's creating and perpetuating as demonstrated by the above diffs are making that more and more an unlikely scenario. Lhb1239 (talk) 02:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

    Is there anything more? The four diffs show pretty ordinary back-and-forth on a user talk page. When I did a quick skim of User talk:MathewTownsend I was surprised to see MathewTownsend say he is new as he seems to be discussing the BLP issue in an appropriate manner. If there is an article accusing living person X of having caused the death of Y (yet X has never been charged), it is highly inappropriate (laughable actually) to respond with "There is no deadline in Misplaced Pages". I do not think it is a WQA issue for an editor to talk about "your article" after reading "If you change the article right now, I will be forced to take this whole thing to another level". It may well be that some inappropriate behavior is going on somewhere, but WP:CIVIL is not a guarantee that editors will not face frank opinions when raising an issue at a user talk page. Johnuniq (talk) 02:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
    (1) Yes, your comments do sound "grumpy" (as you stated in your edit summary) and aren't exactly helpful. But I can overlook that. :-)
    (2) There's more, but thanks to your astute observation, you already found the "more" I was hoping someone would notice. He does seem to be not so new, actually......
    (3) There's nothing in the article in question (Natalie Wood) that suggests/implies/names anyone as being culpable in her death. This is - essentially - a fabrication by the named editor above and another editor who are reading way more into the article than actually exists.
    (4) Charges of ownership by this editor have no basis in fact. I'm not the only editor who feels MathewTownsend is being hyperbolic and too quick to react in regard to the article in question.
    (5) WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL are standards to be adhered to at all times.
    (6) I came here in an attempt to get the air cleared and give the above named editor a chance to rethink his own "grumpiness" because I want to be able to work with him now and in the future in an atmosphere of collegiality and cooperativeness. The direction he's going is making that less and less a possibility.
    Lhb1239 (talk) 02:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
    Response from MathewTownsend
    You're misrepresenting, Mathew. In so doing, you're only making more of a case for your personal attacks and incivility. Lhb1239 (talk) 02:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
    Lhb1239 should drop the WP:STICK, stay away from MathewTownsend's talk page, stop reverting MathewTownsend's talk page comment, especially trivial reversions like , and listen to the advice given by AussieLegend on the 3RR report. Gerardw (talk) 20:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
    LOL! Lhb1239 (talk) 04:47, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

    Active "hunt & attack" by editor

    Attacker

    Battlefields


    Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

    User:Guy Macon doing a lot of misbehaviours, angry editing

    • "Plan of attack..." - explicit edit warring
    • "Drop a hammer on him..." - explicit edit warring
    • "Pizza connection fancies..." - the Italian conspiracy
    • "I'm going to allow..." - enforcement-like editing
    • Witch hunting through Misplaced Pages
    • Reverting-only interaction , rejecting even grammar fixes.
    • Involving admin User:Qwyrxian in active reverting-only interaction .


    Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?


    How do you think we can help?

    Get attacking user understand that "which hunting" and "worst faith assumption" are "wikipedia time wasting". 137.204.148.73 (talk) 08:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

    Are you stating that you are not Blackvisionit (talk · contribs)? Qwyrxian (talk) 10:46, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


    List of recent administrative actions regarding IP Address 137.204.148.73

    Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Blackvisionit

    Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive173#User:137.204.148.73 reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: No action right now.)

    Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Floppy disk hardware emulator (Closed)

    Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance#Active "hunt & attack" by editor

    --Guy Macon (talk) 10:51, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

    The complaints posted above by 137.204.148.73 (which, by an amazing coincidence, faithfully mirror the writing style of Blackvisionit) are simply a result of my attempts to protect the encyclopedia from an editor with a severe conflict of interest and ongoing behavior problems. When he was given some quite reasonable COI restrictions by an administrator, his response was to engage in blatant sockpuppetry. The biggest behavior problem is a total refusal to work collaboratively, a refusal to discuss controversial edits despite being asked again and again to do so (instead choosing to re-revert without discussion), and a refusal to seek consensus. The sad part is that he obviously believes that the rules don't apply to him, that he doesn't need to explain his edits, and that the real problem is anyone else who questions his ownership of the pages he edits.

    As always, I welcome a close examination of my own behavior, and I will take any criticism or suggestions to heart. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

    You're definitely being uncool. As previously suggested to you , the only place you should make an SPI accusation is the SPI page. And it does appear you're following 137 around tracking their edits. Let's AGF and be more welcoming to a new user. Gerardw (talk) 20:19, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
    I believe my monitoring of 137.204.148.73 is within policy. I have read WP:HOUND very carefully, and it says "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." To that end, I have limited myself to only fixing those edits of 137.204.148.73's that are clear violations of Misplaced Pages policy, such as being unsourced and controversial, and I have consistently invited 137.204.148.73 to discuss these edits on the article's talk pages. I do the same whenever I see a clear violation of policy such as adding spam links or changing British English to US English on a page against policy - I look for other pages where the editor may have done the same thing. It certainly is not my aim to "create irritation, annoyance or distress" to 137.204.148.73. Given his pattern of behavior, there are several things I could do that I know would either totally piss him off or bait him into more misbehavior. I have carefully avoided doing any of those things, because my goal is to get him to stop being disruptive, not to become more disruptive. I bear 137.204.148.73 no ill will, and sincerely hope he will decide to start following Misplaced Pages's rules on consensus and discussion of controversial edits.
    As for the claim that "the only place you should make an SPI accusation is the SPI page" I have carefully reviewed Misplaced Pages's policies (primarily WP:SOCK, but there is also a wealth of information in the archives at Misplaced Pages talk:Sockpuppet investigations) and I don't see where it is forbidden to point out that two accounts pass the duck test. While it is an essay rather than policy, Misplaced Pages:Signs of sock puppetry says "The more signs that are present, the more likely sock puppetry is occurring, though no accusations shall be made unless, beyond a reasonable doubt, one is really certain." Well, I am certain beyond a reasonable doubt. I would also note that, as suggested, I opened a SPI. Alas, I got no answer. If there is a policy or guideline that specifically says that one cannot mention suspicions of sockpuppetry other than on the SPI page, please supply a link to the policy. It certainly is possible that I missed a policy, but I have looked. Sometimes an obvious sock is obvious.--Guy Macon (talk) 00:50, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
    You asked for criticism or suggestions. I said you actions were uncool; I did not saying they specifically violated any policy. WP:AGF and WP:Civility suggest limiting SPI accusations to SPI. That said, I do think the admin community is not being very timely on the SPI. Gerardw (talk) 02:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
    I think that's a fair criticism (the part about me -- I have no opinion regarding the criticism of the SPI admins). --Guy Macon (talk) 03:12, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
    I'll concur that it's appropriate to keep discussions in the right place. I also think it would be extremely helpful if another admin took action on the SPI, as I believe that Guy Macon's following of these edits is completely appropriate if, in fact, another admin agrees that they are the same person. I have now doubt, but I'm not sure if I've crossed the line over into WP:INVOLVED territory, so I need a second pair of eyes. If Guy Macon is correct, than we have an editor intentionally editing under an IP to avoid scrutiny. Blackvisionit proved very conclusively that xe cannot edit pages on this topic neutrally, and I told xyr quite clearly I would block xyr for attempting anything other than the most trivial edits on this topic. If the IP is the same person as Blackvisionit, they've violated that several times over, and thus need to be blocked in order to prevent disruption to the page. And, furthermore, if this is Blackvisionit, this WQA is an attempt to distract other user's from the problems xe has as an editor, to get criticism leveled at the person who is legitimately trying to protect these articles from POV inclusions. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
    I would add that, even if 137.204.148.73 and Blackvisionit have no connection at all, there is a consensus among the other editors that the undiscussed edits by 137.204.148.73 to Floppy disk hardware emulator, like the previous edits by Blackvisionit, bias the article towards one particular type of emulator. 137.204.148.73 refuses to discuss his reasons for making these changes (or anything else: his claims above in answer to "Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?" are fabrications). If only he would discuss why he wants to make changes when another editor challenges them, the possibility exists that a consensus could be reached that satisfies both parties. His refusal to discuss breaks Misplaced Pages's cooperative editing model, and leaves the other editors no path that could possibly lead to agreement.
    The same problem with 137.204.148.73's edits can clearly be seen in the edit history for San Severo. He removed what appears to be relevant and properly sourced material, and when asked to explain, engaged in edit warring while refusing to discuss his edits. I don't know anything about San Severo, while we know from geolocation that 137.204.148.73 either lives there or in a nearby town. His insight could be very valuable. Could it be that he correctly identified something that should have been removed? It's possible, but we will never know because he refuses to discuss his edits. All I can do is what I would do any time I see what appears to be relevant and properly sourced material removed without explanation on any article; revert with an edit comment encouraging discussion and place a warning -- also encouraging discussion -- on his talk page. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
    Please see new content at .

    Protection from two editors who are rude and degrade articles

    Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere – discuss on article talk or open WP:RFC Gerardw (talk) 13:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    These two editors have a rude and threatening style which is apparent in all their posts. They have repeatedly made edits to the pages listed above which have for the most part degraded those articles. I have tried to incorporate as much as I can of their work but so much of it limits general readers' understanding of these quite complex battles. For example cutting 'infantry' from the name of a unit makes it difficult to know whether they are infantry regiments, brigades or divisions when both infantry and mounted units were involved. Both these editors have also been rude, made threats, attempted intimidation and harrassment. This has occurred on the talk pages of these articles and on my own talk page. What I need is some protection from their negative edits and rude behaviour. Rskp (talk) 05:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

    I notified the two editors. I do see one edit where what is obviously not vandalism being called vandalism when it appears to be a content dispute. And this edit where discussion is made about an editor. Both incidents would require a discussion, but RoslynSKP, you will have to provide diffs to show what you think the uncivil behaviour is. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
    One thing further, we can't offer you any protection, but we can suggest that the editors cooperate with you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
    Thank you. What are 'diffs'. --Rskp (talk) 07:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
    WP:DIFFs are the differences between two versions of a page, such as this one which shows an edit I recently made to "talk page guidelines." Misplaced Pages:Simplest diff guide gives instructions for how to make them. Gerardw (talk) 12:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
    Here are some links to my talk page

    Anotherclown (talk) 11:37, 5 December 2011 (UTC) this one is threatening Jim Sweeney (talk) 02:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC) Jim Sweeney (talk) 02:29, 6 December 2011 (UTC) while these two are bullying

    On the Battle of Romani talk page Anotherclown (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC) is rude. Anotherclown (talk) 12:06, 6 December 2011 (UTC) and totally fails to grasp my argument.

    Anotherclown had contributed a couple of edits in September before Jim Sweeney's first edit of Battle of Romani when he started an edit war on 30 November 2011 making 45 edits before the article was protected on 6 December. Anotherclown had contributed a couple of edits in September before making 8 edits between 1 and 3 December 2011 to this same article.

    Jim Sweeney had never edited Battle of Magdhaba until two days after I submitted it for a GA review on 15 November 2011 and then he instigated an edit war making 49 edits which resulted in a failure.

    Jim Sweeney started a similar attack on 29 November 2011 making 28 edits on the First Battle of Gaza article, again he had never contributed before to this article.

    I don't know what has caused these two editors to target my work in this way. But their bullying and their lack of knowledge of the area has resulted in three errors being added in by them, that have been found. They have targeted the word 'infantry' in a lot of their edits wanting to take it out from these all arms engagements. But when this happens its difficult for readers to identify the units.

    I hope you can help. --Rskp (talk) 09:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

    Thank you for the diffs. I'm not seeing evidence of significant incivility. Some of RoslynSKP's replies seem to convey a sense of ownership. You should try to come to consensus on the article talk page, and if that fails, consider an WP:RFC. Gerardw (talk) 13:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
    You can also bring this to WP:ARBPIA since serious editing problems in Israel-Palestine related articles can lead to sanctions against offenders. However, sometimes the complainant also gets "in trouble" so it's best to go only if your own editing behavior has been above reproach. CarolMooreDC 19:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
    Carolmooredc, There is no Israel-Palestine problem in these pages. The articles describe WW1 before Israel existed.

    Gerardw, Your comment regarding ownership is curious, because I have happily welcomed all improvements made to articles I have an interest in, since I began editing Misplaced Pages almost 18 months ago. These two editors' work in the last few weeks, is the first and only exception.

    How would you suggest I go about a reasoned approach to these editors, when the best answer I get is 'rubbish'. Why do you put the onus on me to approach them, when they are rude, and its their insistence on their substandard, uncited edits, which are the problem?

    What would you do if a military unit was called one thing in the literature and an editor came along and renamed it? Wouldn't you want to see a citation?

    Yes, I've had a look at WP:RFC but a recent experience with the consensus approach uncovered a weakness. Unfortunately there are not many editors working on these articles on Misplaced Pages and so there are few peers who could come to an informed consensus and a consensus of uninformed editors can be problematic. --Rskp (talk) 00:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    encounter with Jess

    Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere – Reporting user seems to have problems taking direction. Reported user was civil in all interactions and has been attempting to mentor the reporter. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User talk:Stephfo
    Replace this with a brief explanation of the situation. Stephfo (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2011 (UTC) I'd like to report an encounter I just had with user Mann jess (at my talk page) who is constantly trying to attach a wrong behaviour to me while he/she is able to accept even a false claim if others performs deletions of my edits. First, I'd like to acknowledge that I run out of control, but please note that it is very difficult to me to accept a critique especially from him/her due to the history of our relations. Since he/she seems to got strongly upset, I'd like to ask for advice how to calm things down. Please, help. Thanks in advance.--Stephfo (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    From their last edit, it appears Jess would be willing to leave you alone and may intend to do so. Not sure what else can be done to calm things down. Usually doing nothing -- i.e. just waiting for time to pass -- is helpful. Gerardw (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
    Wait... what? My last message to you said that I was retiring from your page and opting to not help you any longer. Given your accusations, I think I phrased myself fairly civilly to boot. How does that qualify as "trying to attach a wrong behaviour to "? The implication is that I've been harassing you, which I think is without merit. I believe I've been fairly generous with my time over the last few months, offering advice and help, and I could say the same of at least a dozen other editors too. However, it doesn't appear any of us, for all our trying, has helped you at all, and you seem to be on the same path back to ANI you've been down more than once before. I mean seriously, it's been months! In all that time, how many editors have you worked collaboratively with? My time is valuable, and I simply don't have enough to spare, obstinately trying against all hope to steer you another way. This is particularly true when, for all that help, all I get are accusations of wrongdoing.
    I don't know why you took this here. There is clearly no civility issue, except the AGF breach which started this discussion, and no one needs calming down. If you want me to come back and help out again, then show me some improvement first. Work productively over these next 6 months with other editors, without getting into disputes with every one. Make some headway. Until then, you have plenty of other editors offering solid advice, and a mentor who's available to answer all your questions. That should be enough. I want you to contribute productively, Stephfo... but you need to show me you can.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    Stephfo, you seriously must stop running round accusing everyone of bad faith all the time. A number of editors have tried to help you, and you have steadfastly treated all of them as attacking you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:41, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    No incivility on the part of Jess that I can see. However the amount of conflict that Stephfo finds seems to warrant some oversight from a patient editor and potentially some warnings if Stephfo doesn't start behaving better. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:36, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
    He's been warned many times, blocked several times and recently topic banned. He has a mentor, but does not seem to consult him when he has a problem like this before acting rashly. The main problem is that Stephfo still isn't clear on what WP is and on how he should behave here because he has never read the pertinent policies. I just gave him yet another reminder, but there are major competence and temperament issues here. He's highly defensive and takes any criticism or disagreement as an attack against him, and responds "in kind", so to speak. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    I've found it strange that the case is closed before I even got chance to react on arguments presented. I did not suggest that Jess have done anything especially wrong but I reserve the right to claim that they are not fair in his/her judgements towards me what is causing lots of tensions and I perceive for the best solution the one proposed as "From their last edit, it appears Jess would be willing to leave you alone". I posted here only to try to do my best to calm down the situation. I appreciate their effort for mentoring me but for me it would be perhaps better if I could use for that purpose someone else w/o the record we have in our mutual relations with Jess. For example, if someone declares something like this: "I most strongly disagree with this proposal. It would essentially enable enforcing administrators to decide content disputes, because they would have to determine which of several contested versions of an article is of higher quality. This necessarily requires a judgement about the merits of the contested content. Consequently, this proposal runs counter to what is practically a constitutional principle of Misplaced Pages, i.e., that administrators do not adjudicate content disagreements. Apart from that, of course, this sort of catch-all exception could be used to contest almost all applications of 3RR, and would therefore enable many more edit wars and substantially weaken what may be our most important safeguard against disagreements getting out of hand" such person seems to me to have qualities of mentoring that I would find worth of following. I also feel sorry that Jess regard the time they spent with me for waste of time, but also do dare suggest that to prevent such disappointment in the future, the best for them would be to find someone else to spend time on, and I will try to keep with those advisers that I feel more compatible with when it comes to fair unbiased assessments of acts. I hope my effort to calm things down and looking for solutions consisting in involvement of 3rd party would not be perceived negatively. Thanks for your help and understanding. --Stephfo (talk) 17:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

    Stop. This is over. I spent considerable time helping you, and you've consistently thrown that in my face with accusations. I'm done. I've now repeatedly told you that, as have Gerard and others. I don't know what continuing to harp on this is intended to accomplish. I don't know if you're trolling, or if for some reason you have an inability to let things go, but either way, the section is archived. It's time to move on.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category: